May 12, 2024 • 48 mins
In this episode, Matisse chats with Ashley Nemeth, a senior communications strategist and writer for PR & Lattes, about accessibility and communications as someone who is Deafblind.
About Ashley Nemeth
Ashley Nemeth is a passionate advocate and visionary leader dedicated to creating a more accessible world for herself and future generations. With over a decade of experience in disability rights, human rights, and accessibility, Ashley’s work is grounded in the belief that inclusive communication is pivotal.
Her role as a Senior Communications Strategist for her city and her impactful presence online, through her long-standing blog at ashleynemeth.com and her Instagram @ashleynemethofficial, showcase her commitment to change.
Ashley’s professional journey includes significant roles with CNIB, where she has been a beacon of leadership and advocacy, earning her national and regional recognitions, including CNIB’s Employee of the Year and CBC’s Top 40 under 40.
A seasoned public speaker, Ashley addresses the barriers faced by those with disabilities, advocating for employment opportunities and societal inclusion. Her leadership extends beyond her professional achievements, touching lives through motivational speaking and active community advocacy and development engagement.
Ashley’s life outside work is filled with creativity and passion, finding joy in writing, reading, and crocheting, always with a coffee in hand.
Her journey is not just a career but a testament to the power of advocacy, leadership, and the relentless pursuit of accessibility for all.
Connect with Ashley:
Instagram
Facebook
LinkedIn
Connect with PR & Lattes:
Website: PR & Lattes
Instagram: @PRAndLattes
Host: @MatisseNelis
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (00:02):
Hello and welcome to PR & Lattes, the
podcast where you can fill upyour cup on everything PR and
communications. I'm your hostMatisse Hamel-Nelis. And I am so
thrilled to have you join metoday for this very special
episode in honour of GlobalAccessibility Awareness Day.
Before we get started, make sureyou subscribe to this podcast
wherever you're listening to itto get notified each week during
(00:24):
the season when a new episodedrops, and for this week, every
day as we celebrate GlobalAccessibility Awareness Day. You
can also subscribe to ournewsletter by visiting our
website prandlattes.com. On thewebsite you'll find our podcast
episodes plus our amazing blogswith new ones being uploaded
every Monday morning. And ofcourse make sure you're
(00:44):
following us on Instagram at@PRAndLattes and on LinkedIn PR
& Lattes. On today's specialepisode I'm chatting with senior
communication strategist and PRand lattes writer Ashley Nemeth.
Ashley is a passionate advocateand visionary leader dedicated
to creating a more accessibleworld for herself and future
generations. With over a decadeof experience in disability
(01:06):
rights, human rights andaccessibility. Her work is
grounded in the belief thatinclusive communication is
pivotal. Ashley's journeyincludes significant roles with
CNIB otherwise known as theCanadian National Institute for
the Blind, where she was abeacon of leadership and
advocacy earning her nationaland regional recognition
including CBC's Top 40 Under 40.
A seasoned public speaker Ashleyaddresses the barriers faced by
(01:30):
those with disabilitiesadvocating for employment
opportunities and societalinclusion. Her leadership
extends beyond her professionalachievements, Touching Lives
Through motivational speakingand active community advocacy
and development engagement. I ambeyond thrilled to chat with her
today about communicationsaccessibility and her own
experience navigating ourprofession as someone who is
Deafblind. So grab your latte,sit back and enjoy. I am so
(01:53):
excited for today's episode. Iam thrilled to be joined by
Ashley Nemeth on today's episodeto talk about accessibility and
communications, particularlywith the lived experience. So
welcome Ashley to the podcast.
Ashley Nemeth (02:09):
Thanks for having me. I'm so excited.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (02:12):
Oh, this is gonna be so good. Okay, so let's
dive into things and leteverybody get to know who Ashley
is. So can you tell thelisteners about your own journey
within marketing, contentcreation and public relations?
Ashley Nemeth (02:23):
Yeah, so I didn't have like a, I guess, like
formal plan or formal way ofgetting into communication. I
think I just kind of fell intoit. Sort of. So I have always
loved to write, like, ever sinceI was a kid, I love to write and
read and you know, all of thosethings. And then, as I got
(02:48):
older, and started working, Ireally really wanted to be able
to, to write in some form someway for my work. Actually, when
I was in high school, I wasgoing into university, and I was
going into a journalism program.
And I had the opportunity to goand like do a shadow of a
(03:08):
reporter. Back when newspaperswere a big thing. And so it was
a newspaper, here inSaskatchewan. And, you know, I
was able to ask questions andsee how it worked, and all of
these things, and I was soexcited. And then at the end of
the day, I kind of got anopportunity to ask questions.
And I asked the question, um,you know, do you think that
(03:29):
someone who is blind would beable to be successful in this
industry? And she told me no,and went on this big long spiel
about how, why I wouldn't beable to be successful in this,
you know, in this industry. Andso, I was devastated. You know,
17. And so I went on, you know,to go to university for a bit
(03:56):
and my career kind of took medown, you know, business
ownership, and, you know, abunch of different places. And
then I, at a point in time, whenI was 20, ish, I lost all of my
vision.
And then my career pathdrastically shifted, and out of
(04:21):
frustration, I started a blog.
And at that time, I was like,I'm just gonna read it, like,
just like, use it, like a diary,typing away. And then people
started reading and I was like,Oh, whoops, I probably wouldn't
have said that if I thoughtpeople were gonna read it. And
so kind of like just evolvedover over time, you know,
content creation and just, youknow, playing with it a little
(04:45):
bit and then taking it a littlemore seriously. And
communications, as I workedthrough a non-profit was a part
of my role, but it wasn't likemy specific role. And then I
wanted to change in careers, andI've landed in a communications
role. And, you know, over thelast couple of years, I've
really been getting to know moreabout communications and like,
(05:07):
and the role and like some ofthe differences. And yeah, it's
just it's been a really excitingtime. But I've definitely not
had, you know, a formal like,went through a program, planning
and communications, by anymeans. But yeah, it's been a,
it's been an adventure.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (05:25):
It's been a journey, right? Not your
traditional journey, but ajourney nonetheless. So you
mentioned about your sight loss,and your when you were in your
20s, that it went away. And,more recently, also, your
hearing has started todeteriorate to you had
mentioned. So how has yourexperience with Deafblindness
(05:46):
shaped your approach tocommunications and PR?
Ashley Nemeth (05:49):
It's really shifted it I think, you know,
before my hearing loss, it waseasier, I would say, because I
was just so used to be takingeverything in, like, through
audio. And that was how Iexperienced, you know, all of
the communications and thingslike that. And then with my
sight loss, a lot of the time, Iended up using braille through
(06:15):
my through, you know, devices,which limits, or adds an extra
layer of challenge to consumingthe material, because it always
isn't possible. So, you know, asI've been, you know, working in
the communications side ofthings and creating content, my
goal is always to ensure that itcan be accessed not only
(06:39):
through, you know, just a screenreader, I think people often
think that that's just the ielaknow, if you're blind, you use
screen reader.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (06:46):
Yeah.
Ashley Nemeth (06:48):
And so, you know, really pushing for, for it to be
accessible in all ways for allpeople. And you know, just
because, you know, a screenreader exists doesn't mean that
it's going to work for everyone,I think there's not a real
understanding that individualscould have multiple
disabilities, like, it's notjust blindness, and just hearing
(07:09):
loss or, you know, just, youknow, some other purpose that a
lot of times there's, there'sother things, and so, been
really trying to, like educatepeople that I work with, and
through content around, youknow, some of those challenges
and removing as many barriers aspossible.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (07:26):
And I think that leads into the next
question really well, you know,in your work, and I think this
comes across in many, manycases, the people just don't
know what they don't know. Orthey have preconceived notions
of how somebody let's say, withDeafblindness would engage or
interact with technology andthat sort of thing, and how they
(07:46):
would get their job done. So howdo you navigate the digital
space and your technology andensure accessibility not only
for yourself, but others aroundyou?
Ashley Nemeth (07:56):
Yeah, that's definitely is exhausting. Like,
you know, I don't even know howto like, explain it other than
like, it's exhausting. Mentally,it's exhausting emotionally. I
spent a lot of my time,unfortunately, in my current
(08:16):
role at, you know, in a formalcommunications role, trying to
get things in an accessibleformat, so that I can do my job.
I would say, half of my time isspent fighting the accessibility
in the digital space. I thinkthere's a thought that because
it's digital, that anyone canaccess it, you know, it is
(08:37):
inherently accessible, right?
You know, like, when we talkedabout, just had a conversation
recently, you know, at workwhere, you know, they said to
me, Well, you can just use likethe Adobe, like the read
function, you just push it, andit reads all the text. I was
like...okay... You know, but Ican't read that in Braille. So,
(08:59):
you know, as someone withhearing loss, I'm only getting
30% of what someone says. So I'mtaking a lot of effort to like,
piece it together. Socialconversations, that's easier.
When I'm reviewing material thatI don't know, and needs to be
right, I need to be able to doit in braille. And I can't do
that through the Adobe readfunction. You know, and then
(09:21):
there's also the Adobe readfunction skips over all the
images. You know, sometimesthose graphs are important.
So, you know, it's it'sdefinitely been been a huge, a
huge journey, moving out of thenonprofit space, because before
I went into this formalcommunications role I worked in
(09:43):
like the disability world,right. So it was on the minds of
everyone because that's what wedid. Whereas now that I've moved
out of the disability, you know,work. It's not at all on
people's minds, and they'reoften surprised that I can't
(10:05):
access it. I don't know how tofix it. And I've kind of been
approaching it as I'm fixing itfor those coming behind me.
Right? And that's, I thinkthat's the only way that like,
keeps me going, because I'm theonly totally blind individual
that works in the organization.
And I am definitely the onlyDeafblind person. And when I
(10:28):
came into this role, it was veryclear that they were not
prepared for my level ofdisability. And didn't know and
still don't know how to, youknow, ensure that I'm an equal
wheel valued member of a team.
(10:52):
I've had to deal with a lot oflike discrimination and people
not thinking that I'm capable. Iremember like, when I first
started, like, a month or two,and someone said to me, Oh, you
don't need to, you know, worryabout not about, you know,
having to fight withaccessibility, you know, like
you, you have far out exceededany expectations that we had of
(11:15):
you before you started. And Iremember thinking, that's not a
compliment.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (11:21):
No.
Ashley Nemeth (11:22):
So, you know, like, so are you surprised that
I got here? And like, I couldturn on a computer, like, where
are we talking? Like, how loware these expectations? Right.
And so, not only do people, youknow, have these biases that
they don't realize that theyhave. But in the communications,
(11:42):
you know, side of things, whenI'm giving advice and
recommendations, a lot of thetime I'm not taking seriously,
because I don't think peoplethink I know what I'm talking
about. Right? And so it's been,I would say in this last year,
like I've had to fight harderfor accessibility and access
than I've ever fought in mylife.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (12:03):
That, that breaks my heart to be honest
with you, because, you know,everyone likes to say that they
are inclusive, diverse andequitable. But when
accessibility is anafterthought, you aren't being
inclusive, you aren't beingdiverse, you can't be diverse,
because you're alienating aportion of the population. And
clearly, you're not beingequitable in what you're
(12:23):
presenting and providing. So,you know, it comes across more
as a performative measure tosay, you know, we have our DEI
practices and this is what wedo. But when accessibility is
that afterthought, then really,you know, you're not, you're
you're not doing what you sayyou're going to do. Do you think
(12:45):
that there needs to be more pushwithin our profession to upskill
and train on accessibility, notjust for the sake of while we
might have somebody work for uswho has a disability, but rather
for broader reach of theircontent in general?
Ashley Nemeth (13:03):
Yeah, I think so.
I think there needs to be moreeducation. On like, both sides,
because, you know, as I've been,you know, going through this
journey, and I've had thisconversation, because I was
hired, because of their DEIplan, it was the role that was
specified for someone with adisability. So, like, let's be
(13:23):
real, I was a checkbox, righ?
And so they didn't, they werejust looking to check that box,
which a lot is what we see a lotof the time, right? We talked
about accessibility, and they'relike, Okay, well, where's, you
know, I just need to check off,you know, as I go, externally,
(13:43):
right, especially externally,yep. But if you can't create, if
you can't have an organizationor a culture of accessibility
internally, you're never goingto get it right externally.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (13:55):
Yeah.
Ashley Nemeth (13:56):
Right? You know, like, you can't, it's kind of
like that, like old saying, youknow, like, sweep your own
doorstep first.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (14:03):
Yeah.
Ashley Nemeth (14:04):
Right? And like, and so a lot of the time, when
we talk about DE and I andaccess to communication, their
focus is on the external. Andit's not about the internal and
ensuring that you, you start athome, right, and you and you
make sure that your things areaccessible to the best of your
ability. Will it ever be like100%? No, they're like, there's
(14:26):
always going to be things thatyou know, have to change and
have to you have to figure outbut the basics, there needs to
be more more effort, moreeffort, you know, put into it.
Like, I don't understandeverybody's love of PDF. And
(14:47):
then like, what I like, hey,like Joe in a different format,
and they're like, no, no, wedon't know like, it started in a
Word document. Where's it?
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (14:55):
Yeah.
Ashley Nemeth (14:55):
And so like, it's just yeah, it's been
interesting. It's been...It'sbeen a challenge. And I've had a
lot of moments where I've justhad to be like, nothing nice to
say say nothing at all.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (15:10):
It's funny, you bring up the PDF, so I love
a PDF. But I also am fully awarethat you have to properly format
the PDF for it to be read. And Ithink people think as soon as I
change it in Acrobat intoAcrobat and make it a PDF, I'm
good to go. Yep, there's morethat needs to be done. There's a
whole ISO standard, right interms of the technical backend
(15:33):
on what you need to do to a PDFin order for it to be
accessible. I'll give a quickshout out here, then, you know,
if you have a PDF, and you wantto see if it's actually
accessible, at least, at aglance, I would say because you
still have to manually check it.
But from an automatedstandpoint, that there is the
PDF Accessibility Checker 2024from Axes4 that you can download
(15:54):
for free, it works on PCs, thatyou can just drag and drop your
PDF document to see if it'saccessible, again, from an
automated standpoint, but youstill want to make sure you're
testing it yourself. You know,going through the reading order
of your PDF, and for some peoplemeans just saying a reading
order and a PDF might be Whatare you talking about reading
(16:15):
orders a thing and a PDF, havingit be tagged as a thing in a
PDF, you know, adding alt textto your images or image
descriptions, a thing and a PDFhaving proper heading structure
there, it's more than justsimply, you know, take a Word
document and change it into aPDF. And also when it comes to
the Word documents, making surethat those are accessible in
themselves, right using theStyles pane. And you know,
(16:37):
Ashley, you and I are doingpresentations on this sort of
thing, and could go on and onand on about it. But there's
more than just simply pushing abutton and making it accessible.
And I think that's whateverybody's hoping for is that
easy button when it comes toaccessibility. And we see this
now with websites, right withoverlays. And I'd love to hear
your thoughts on overlays onwebsites. For the viewers out
(17:00):
there, actually, that was justone really, really big me like,
Oh, don't get me started. Butyou know, companies and
organizations, I think, havethe, for the most part, they're
not intentionally trying toalienate or trying to keep
people out of either theirorganization or you know,
(17:23):
engaging with their contentexternally. I think it's what
they don't know what they don'tknow. And when they are told
about a quick fix. And I thinkthat's the big issue in
accessibility right now is thatthere are these quote unquote,
quick fixes that actually don'tfix, they cause more issues, and
that sort of thing. And one ofthose is overlays. So I would
(17:44):
love you from your perspective,you know, when you engage with a
website that does have one ofthese overlays, and we're not
going to mention any names,because we don't want to get
sued. But I am talking to KarlGroves as part of this series
for Global AccessibilityAwareness Day. And we are going
to talk about all thingsoverlay. So stay tuned for that
later this week. But you know,actually, from an end user
(18:07):
perspective, you know, assomebody who uses your own
assistive technology to engagewhen you engage with overlays,
what does that experience like?
Ashley Nemeth (18:17):
That's funny, you should bring up overlays
actually just had a conversationsomebody had sent me it well,
couldn't we just do this to ourwebsite and make it more
accessible? And I was like, Oh,heck no. So you know, like, I'll
go to a website, and it's like,click here to make your site
more accessible. And I'm like,Oh, that's cute. No, they just,
(18:40):
they add a layer of challenge,they actually add a layer of
like, less accessibility in someways. You know, especially for
someone who's trying to use itwith a screen reader or braille
display. A lot of the times thatoverly, like, makes weird
layers, like within the website,and so you're not able to
really, like navigate it, Ifind. Yeah, I actually find that
(19:04):
makes them worse, in some ways,like, they're, they're terrible.
Like they really are. And Ithink they, they do just give
people like that quick fix, andthey think that it's great. And
I have noticed, you know, as I'mworking to help, you know, the
organization I'm working for,you know, increase accessibility
of, you know, websites anddocuments and just knowing about
(19:26):
accessibility, there is thisdesire to have that quick fix
because, you know, everyorganization I feel like
nowadays doesn't have doesn'thave the capacity right to add
more things. And so it's like,well, I Googled this and I put
my website in and it said thatit was fully accessible. They
got a good score, but yet noneof your form fields are labeled.
(19:51):
You know, none of like I can'tyou don't headings lists, you
don't have a links list. Andthere's so many organizations
and organizations, websites outthere claiming to give you like
an audit in like three seconds,you know, and then like, you
know, fix your website or, youknow, make it accessible. And
(20:12):
it's a huge, it's, it's a hugeproblem because all these people
are, they're just takingadvantage of, of organizations
and people, right? And they'retrying to capitalize on on the
DEI side of things, and there'shuge money. And so they're not
trying to capitalize on it, butit does make things a little
more challenging for sure.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (20:33):
So, you know, let's overlays being the
negative, what are some toolsand technologies that instead
have been game changers for you,particularly as a communicator
that have helped, you know,bring positive change both
whether to yourself in terms ofbeing able to do your work, or
even for an organization who'strying to be more accessible and
(20:54):
inclusive for their staff andpotentially external folks?
Ashley Nemeth (20:57):
I think that like, the biggest positive
change is that even though wesee, you know, a lot of these
DEI plans and things like that,especially in like
communication, you know, they'restarting these plans, because
they're being mandated to orbecause, you know, now it's
being kind of like this, likethe thing to do, right, the
(21:18):
right thing to do. And eventhough sometimes they are lip
service, and in some ways, thefact that there is a plan, and
the fact that we're talkingabout it, I think is a huge
change, right? Because we itnever used to be talked about,
if you wanted to have somethingfix, like you need to email a
developer, like, you know, like,there was not an easy way to
(21:44):
give feedback or talk about it.
So I think as we talk about it,I think people are becoming more
and more aware and are askingthe question is this, you know,
can you access this or, youknow, do you need in a different
format, you know, those kinds ofthings. And then you know, with
things like the accessibilitychecker in a Word document, or
the accessibility checker withinPDF, I think those are huge.
(22:04):
They're not, you still have togo in and fix it. It's like to
know what you're doing,unfortunately, but, you know,
there's there. So then, youknow, when someone says, Well,
your documents not accessible,and they can kind of get a
better idea of what that means.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (22:22):
Yeah.
Ashley Nemeth (22:23):
Right? Because I think a lot of the times, that's
the problem is, we throw aroundthe words accessible, like, you
know, like, it's nothing, but alot of people don't even really
know what that mean. Like, if Isay this isn't accessible, they
have no idea, right? Like, I'mspeaking a different language,
you know, for them. And so themore we talked about it, and the
more it's, you know, integratedinto technology, I think it you
(22:45):
know, it's helpful to get peoplemore aware.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (22:49):
Yeah, one thing I like that you brought up
are the accessibility checks inlike Word and PowerPoint, and
even Excel, the Microsoft suite,they've really done a great job
in an in trying to educate folkson the accessibility as long as
they know that that buttonsthere, right under review, Check
Accessibility across allMicrosoft platforms there. But
(23:11):
it not only tells you what theerror is, it also tells you how
do you fix it, and why is itimportant to fix. And I really
like that versus just saying,This isn't accessible, it needs
to be fixed. Okay, but why,right? Education is such a big
part in it. Because, like yousaid, we people tend to throw
the word accessibility orinaccessible, around and the
(23:33):
other person doesn't reallyunderstand what it is that we
mean by that, you know, becauseto them, Well, I can see it, I
can, you know, I can scrolldown, I can click on things, I'm
fine, but not everybody engageswith the content in the same
way. And so I think thateducation piece, I really love
that you flag that becausethat's key, and, you know, kudos
(23:53):
to Microsoft, for ensuring thatit's not just here's the error
and how to fix it. But here'swhy it's important to fix it.
Ashley Nemeth (24:01):
Yeah, I think too, like I've run into a lot of
the times where people when Iexplained like, why it's not
accessible. And they're like,Oh, well, couldn't you just go
in and like, fix the readingorder? And I kind of giggle
because I'm like, I can't fixwhat I can't see.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (24:15):
Yeah.
Ashley Nemeth (24:15):
Right. And so I had to say that so many more
times than I ever thought like,I honestly never thought I'd say
it in the first place. But I'vehad to say it quite a few times,
where I'm like, I can't I can'tdo that. I can't see it.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (24:29):
I had somebody when I was working on a
document once they were puttinga bunch of information in the
footer. And I said, you know,just as an FYI, a majority of
folks who use assistivetechnology, particularly text to
speech software, like JAWS orNVDA or voiceover, have it
turned off to read the header orfooter and they were just blown
(24:50):
away and they said, Well, whyI'm putting content there. I
said, Okay, think about amagazine or a book. Right? What
if you are sighted and you arereading yet, as it is, do you
read the header and footer onevery single page as you go
through your pay the document?
And they're like, Well, no, Ijust skip it because it's a
repetition. And I said, so whywould you inflict that on
somebody who wants to justengage with the content as
(25:13):
anybody else, you'll access itdifferently. But that's the
thing. So you want to make sureany of the important information
that isn't a repetition, like apage number, the name of the
book at the bottom of every pagekind of thing. Anything that's
important is actually in thewhat I call the work area, or
wherever you put your regularstuff, versus in the header or
footer, and they were just blownaway by that concept. And like,
(25:36):
oh, all the time we've put thisinformation in the footer, I'm
like, Well, now you know, right.
So moving forward, you won't dothat. And it will provide a
better access. And you. And myphilosophy has always been you
never know who's going to get ahold of your document, or your
presentation or your Excelsheet. So by ensuring that you
(25:58):
are practicing accessibilitybest practices and creating
them, no matter who gets it,they'll be able to access the
information.
Ashley Nemeth (26:06):
Yeah, I think there's a big misperception, I
guess, you know, I've had a lotof conversations, you know, in,
in my communications role werelike, well, like, it's only
like, how many people would beaccessing it? Right. And I, it's
a frustrating conversation, butI guess like, in, you know, most
people have never interactedwith someone who's blind. And
(26:30):
most, and I, that number is evensmaller when we talk about deaf
blindness. And so in their eyes,right, like, it's not a huge, a
huge community, a huge audience.
But the reality is, is that itis.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (26:45):
It is yeah.
Ashley Nemeth (26:46):
You know, like, it's very significant. Just
because you don't see it doesn'tmean it's not there.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (26:51):
Yeah. And not only that, like, for myself,
I wear glasses, I'm sorry, Iwould consider myself sighted.
However, I tend to learn orabsorb information better when
it is audible. So I'll take adocument, and I'll have it play
through assistive technology toread it out to me. So I know
that I absorb it better. Right?
So I'm not the, quote unquote,typical user of assistive
(27:13):
technology, but I utilize it tobetter understand and absorb the
information given to me. Right,and others would be like, Oh,
well, you know, you don't havesight loss. So why are you using
it? But it's, it's there tohelp. Right? There's so many
features and technologyadvancement, technological
advancements that have been madefor, you know, accessibility
(27:35):
purposes that other people haveused and utilized, like
captions.
Ashley Nemeth (27:42):
But I think that's that conversation too,
right? Like, we, when we talkabout accessibility, we look at
like, permanent, right, likepeople who have permanent
disabilities, but the reality is100% of people will be disabled
at some point in their life.
Whether it be the onlydifference is if it'll be
temporary, or permanent. Right?
(28:02):
So like, you're using yourphone, and it's sunny outside,
and you can't see it. Right. Sothen people will, you know, kind
of use some, you know, assistivetechnology that to manage with
that, right? You know, peopleuse zoom all the time on their
phones, right? Because thescreens are small, or the words
are small, right? Or, like yousaid, like, you take things in
(28:24):
easier through, you know,through auditory feedback. So,
you know, you're using the, youknow, technology to, to read
that back, or even like the readfunction and Adobe or you know,
like, so we all have uses forthese things, whether it's just
if it's temporary or permanent.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (28:44):
Exactly. So then how do you see the future
of accessibility andcommunications evolving? And
what role do you hope to play inthat?
Ashley Nemeth (28:52):
I think I see. I think I've seen like, sometimes
it feels like we've like 10steps forward, five back.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (29:00):
Yeah.
Ashley Nemeth (29:01):
If that makes sense, right? Because Because
we're a society who very much islike, wants to follow the trend,
right, we want to be relevant,and everybody's fighting to be
relevant. And there's so muchgoing on. Like, it's, you know,
it's 24/7 you know, media andcontent. And so, as people
strive to be relevant, sometimesthat takes over. And so I see
(29:27):
communications getting better inknowledge around accessibility
and what that means and how tocreate more accessible content.
But at the same time, somecontent and trends take us a
step back, right or a couple ofsteps back, you know, like when
we we've now become very relianton like, especially like social
(29:51):
media over the last, especiallyfor like to say like last six
months for me that I've reallynoticed. That is like videos. We
have come very reliant onvideos, but videos that don't
have any speech. Like they'redoing something and there's like
sound, or they're like pointingto something, right, but they're
(30:11):
not speaking. And so that is,that's something I've come
across a lot lately, even withorganizations. And so like I
said, like, it's it feelssometimes like, you know, one
step forward one step back. Soyou know what, it's funny
though, because in order to winor making those videos, they're
really making captions.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (30:32):
Yeah.
Ashley Nemeth (30:33):
Right? So like, it's like, just, like, speak.
Yeah, words to, you know. Soyeah, it really feels like 10
steps forward, one step back.
But I think my whole career nomatter what I've been doing over
the years, has always been abouttrying to make things better for
(30:54):
those for others coming behindme. And so, you know,
throughout, as I continue, in mycommunications career, my goal
is to really have an impact inthe in the industry around
accessibility of content, andmaterials. But on a bigger side,
accessibility for people to bein the industry. Yeah, I don't
(31:17):
think there's a lot of peoplewho are blind or Deafblind who
work in communications, peopleare very surprised when I tell
them what I do. Very surprised.
And, and this shouldn't beright. Like, we, as individuals
who are blind or you know,individuals disability, we, we
(31:37):
want to consume all the contentto, you know, like, we are
normal, people who want youknow, to consume all types of
content, we're all types ofpeople, like, we don't all just
want to, you know, consumedisability content either,
right? We want to consume all ofthe content. In fact, as someone
who's disabled, a lot of them, Idon't want to consume disability
(31:59):
content.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (32:00):
Yeah.
Ashley Nemeth (32:01):
Because I live it. And so you have to find ways
to like escape from that, insome ways. You know, so, yeah,
that's what I hope to happen.
Who knows? We never know whatwill happen. That's my goal.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (32:17):
That's the goal. That's the goal. And
that's all you know, we canthink positively about the
future and where things aregoing and hope that that's where
they'll go. Do you ever getannoyed as somebody who has
lived experience, that you aresort of the person who has to do
all always has to do theeducating to your colleagues and
potential clients aboutaccessibility and inclusion?
(32:39):
Versus it sort of be woven innaturally into that culture, if
you will.
Ashley Nemeth (32:47):
Yeah, definitely.
I've been an advocate for avery, very long time. And
because I'm not someone to stayquiet, no, someone to just write
an email. I'm very open. And I'mvery, you know, honest. And I
will say, what needs to be said,hard or not. It does become
(33:10):
exhausting. You know, like,people will say, Oh, well, you
know, you're doing such anamazing job for the blind, you
know, and deaf blindcommunities, you're really
paving the way for for othersand, you know, changing as
changing people's minds orperception. And there is times
(33:31):
where I just want someone elseto pave the way for me.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (33:37):
Yeah.
Ashley Nemeth (33:38):
Right? I don't always want to be the first. But
it feels like I very much am.
Especially in Saskatchewan,where I live. I feel like in
Saskatchewan, we're like 20years behind when it comes to
accessibility, disability,understanding all of that. And
so sometimes they get really,really frustrated. Like,
(33:58):
remember to filter what comesout of my mouth. You know, like,
Oh, don't say that out loud,actually. So... So yeah, it it
really is that and I will saylike, it has a huge impact on my
mental health has had a hugeimpact on my mental health. And
so it's something that I have toreally careful in some ways,
(34:19):
right? Because I it does becomepersonal because I'm fighting
people see me fighting for thosecoming behind me. But at the
same time, I'm, I'm in it, I'mfighting for me to have access.
And it can really weigh on yourmental health when you're always
(34:41):
fighting. It seems like everyday you're fighting not only
within the workplace, not onlywith you know trying to consume
content, but just in your daily,your daily life. You know,
trying to be a parent trying tobe a wife, trying to just get
your hours to work.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (34:59):
So with that sort of in mind, you know,
and you flagged a couple oftimes where, you know, you
mentioned that some of yourcolleagues were like, we weren't
expecting that, and you kind ofbecome the phrase is inspiration
porn. And for those who havenever heard this phrase before,
and are just listening, going,What the heck are you talking
(35:20):
about? You know, inspirationporn is when you basically put
somebody with a disability on apedestal, for doing something
that is an everyday task, butthey just do it differently,
right, then maybe what you wouldexpect, but it is a day to day
tasks, you're doing your job andyou know, day to day task. So
(35:42):
what are some misconceptionsthat you think are out there
that you would like to squashwhen it comes to sight loss and
deaf blindness? Particularly inthe professional world?
Ashley Nemeth (35:53):
I think the biggest one for me is the lower
standards or expectations ofpeople who have disabilities, I
think there's a bigmisperception that we're not
educated, we're not skilled,we're not knowledgeable in in,
you know, lots of differentareas. And you know, it, you're
always feeling keep to proveyourself, and so like, the
biggest change that I would wantis that individuals disability
(36:17):
of any kind are not having toprove their worth, right. We
don't ask all employees to provetheir worth every single day. We
would never, like it justwouldn't be a great work
environment. And so, you know,asking, or making people feel
like they need to prove theirworth and prove their skills and
(36:39):
things like that, like, andincrease the standards or
expectations of them is a hugeone for me. The one thing we
talked about, like inspirationporn, and I have to I have to
remind myself that not everybodyknows that phrase. So when I say
it to like, non-disabled people,they I'm, it's a good thing. I
(37:00):
can't see their faces, becausethe noise that they make us
enough where I'm like, oh, no,everybody knows what that means.
So they just hear the word pornand think all sorts of things.
But I remember I don't rememberthe company what we shouldn't
say companies anyway, becausethat's about you can get sued.
(37:21):
There was this, remember, therewas these like advertisements.
And it was like disabledindividuals. So like an amputee
running a track. Or someone withone arm playing tennis. A blind
person hiking, like, there wasall of these different things.
And it was like, What's yourexcuse?
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (37:42):
I remember that.
Ashley Nemeth (37:43):
Right? And I was like, excuse, you know, right.
So like, those types of things.
They really, really drive melike, so you think I'm not
capable, sir. Like let's have aconversation.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (38:03):
Yeah.
Ashley Nemeth (38:03):
Because you need to be educated.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (38:04):
I remember, I want to say was the I think it
was 2018 Summer Olympics. Ithink that was a year that we
had Summer Olympics. And achannel in the UK was going to
air them both the Olympics andthe Paralympics. And for the
Paralympics, they created thisvideo that was we are
superhuman, superhuman, and itfeatured now any Olympian
(38:29):
Paralympian Olympian, to mesuperhuman, I cannot do what
like I would I like to jokearound like, I have six gold
medals and sitting in my closet,I don't know we're close, could
never. So you know, an Olympianor Paralympian, to me, you're
superhuman. It's just amazingwhat you can accomplish. But in
(38:49):
this commercial, which was topromote the Paralympics, again,
they had people woven in withdisability to or just doing day
to day tasks, taking care oftheir child brushing their
teeth. Like that one really gotme it was like, and I remember
thinking at first, this is sucha commercial. And then I took
the Accessible Media Productionprogram at Mohawk College, and
(39:10):
my teacher said, introduced meto this concept of inspiration
porn, because I had never heardabout it before. And I was just,
you know, taken down for sure.
And I was like, I feeldisgusting. For being like, this
is such a big commercial.
Everybody. Look, it's soinclusive. Right? No, like he
was promoting that, you know,just doing day to day tasks is,
(39:34):
you know, a huge accomplishment.
You should be so proud. Whenreally no, you're just living
life day to day now. You know,swimming and winning a gold
medal at the Olympics orParalympics? Yes, superhuman,
kudos to you. You deserve thecommercial but the day to day
stuff. It sort of demoralizes Iguess, and diminishes the what
(39:54):
people with disabilities doevery day. Right and puts it on
like the oh my god, you're sobrave. That's the other phrase,
you are so brave, that you heara lot of right. So I feel like
that's something particularly ascommunicators, we need to be
cognizant of when we arecreating campaigns, and when we
(40:14):
are creating content overall,are we doing it because it's
tokenism? Or like, oh, we justneed to we need to check a box?
Or is it being authentic to whatwe're trying to do? And do we
have those policies and thingsin place within our
organizations that speak tolike, we were hiring people with
disabilities, they have accessto the information they need,
(40:36):
versus we're just hiring them,and then we're, like, well,
figure it out. Kind ofsituations. Right? So yes.
Ashley Nemeth (40:45):
Yeah. That the tokenism that tokenism piece
like, and I think one of theproblems that I've noticed in
communications, you know, in it,when we talk about like
inclusion, right, is that, like,we're talking inclusion, oh, we
got to make sure that we have,you know, an individual using a
wheelchair in that photo. Andthen we have someone of colour
(41:06):
in that photo, somebody whorepresents, you know, the queer
community in that photo. Andthey're trying to, like, make
sure like these staged photoshave all of these people.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (41:17):
Yeah.
Ashley Nemeth (41:17):
The reality is, is that a lot of disabilities
are invisible. So, you know,putting someone in the photo who
utilizes a wheelchair, I mean, agreat like, but is it true
representation? Or are you justtrying to show that you consider
these things, right? Like, whenyou have, you know, ads and
things where it's like, anindividual in a wheelchair, and
(41:39):
they're kind of staged? Youknow? Why, like, What's your
intention for that? Like, whatdo you what are you trying to
get across? Because that's notinclusion?
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (41:50):
No.
Ashley Nemeth (41:50):
Right? Like, by any means. It's not, it's
absolutely not inclusion, andthat's, you know, in the
disability community, you know,for, you know, people of, you
know, different races andethnicities, you know, that's
the thing, right, like,inclusion isn't making sure that
there's one of us in a photo.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (42:07):
We can talk about that for hours and hours
and hours.
Ashley Nemeth (42:09):
Oh, yeah.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (42:11):
But let's get to the question that, you
know, tries to bring in hope andinspire, you know, what advice
would you give businesses, andthis is, again, not being like,
actually, you're the expert inall things. But rather, you
know, from your experience, whatadvice would you give businesses
who are looking to improve theircommunication strategies to be
more inclusive?
Ashley Nemeth (42:29):
I think it's hard to say, I look at your content
from all kinds of angles, right?
Like, try to put yourself in theshoes. Like, if I couldn't see
this ad? What is it? What is it?
What is it? What am I say? Whatam I conveying? Right? You know,
and try to really, like, look atyour content. And I always say,
(42:51):
like, I've always said, like,you know, when someone says
something really stupid, I'llsay, you know, I think you
should just say that back toyourself out loud, and just sit
on it for a moment. And, and Isay that, like, you know, kind
of tongue in cheek, but it'strue, right? Read your content
out loud. And, you know, justkind of sit with that does it?
(43:12):
Does it really conveyed themessage that you want to convey?
Right. And I think, you know,the other one is just to, like,
learn, and be open minded andtake small steps. It's not about
changing everything overnight.
It's about you know, makinglittle steps like, using how to,
you know, using styles and wordor, you know, like, just, you
(43:33):
know, learning and changingbehaviors slowly and integrating
it in authentically.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (43:41):
Yeah. Yeah.
And I think that really answersmy next question is what's one
step that they can take to maketheir communications more
accessible to everyone? And it'seducating yourself. And, you
know, I like to say, the lowesthanging fruit, because you see
them everywhere are with images,add your alt text, right, unless
it is decorative, right, youknow, and what we mean by
(44:03):
decorative and and correct me ifI'm wrong here, actually, if
it's literally a circle, on apage, because you're like, it
just adds a little bit ofcolour. It's pretty, that is
decorative. You don't need tohear that. But if it is
something that is, it's beingused as a way to provide more
context, or provide informationin some way, give it all text.
(44:25):
And if it's on social media, ifyou're using an image, you're
using it for a reason, it is notdecorative. It needs it's all
text or image description.
Ashley Nemeth (44:36):
Yeah, and you know, I think like those are
that's like, one of the easiestfor accessibility is to add alt
text to any image, right? Like,if it's a photo, add alt text,
it's a graph, alt text. Youknow, like, what are you trying
to convey? Alt text.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (44:54):
Yeah. Is there another tip or step that
you would say you know that theycan start to people can start to
incorporate right away to helpthem be more accessible in what
they're creating, whether it beon social on web or in
documents?
Ashley Nemeth (45:09):
I think just be like mindful, I think we've
really come to a place where weover design. We've
overcomplicated like, you know,it's like a poster contest every
day. When it comes to content,you know, like, less is more,
right? It's really more readablefor everyone. So I think just
like being cognizant of, youknow, over decorating, you know,
(45:33):
it's like, it's like when youlike, go into someone's house,
right, like, your accent wall ofroses is great. Would you do
your whole house and it?
Probably not?
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (45:41):
Yeah, yeah.
It reminds me of that quote fromCoco Chanel, where she basically
says, before you leave thehouse, look in the mirror and
remove one piece one article,because less is more. So Ashley,
I can't thank you enough forbeing on this episode. I have,
you know, I love talking to youabout this stuff and learning
(46:04):
more and getting moreperspective and how I can be
more accessible and inclusiveand what I do. So thank you.
Thank you. Thank you. I do haveone final question. And I
promise this isn't a doozyunless it is and you're just
like, I have so many options.
But what is your favoritecaffeinated, go to beverage.
Ashley Nemeth (46:24):
Well, I have a problem? A real caffeine
problem. It doesn't reallyaffect me anymore, because I
feel like it's just part of mybloodstream. So I'm a coffee
girl. Definitely, but not like afancy coffee girl because I want
to taste the coffee. Right? Solike, I don't want my coffee
cake. So I so I'm very much likeyou got a really good cup of
(46:51):
coffee with a little bit ofcream and a little bit of sugar.
But I want to taste like thecoffee. I don't want it to be
dessert.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (46:59):
I love that. I love that. So again,
Ashley, thank you so much forbeing on the podcast today. If
people want to get in touch withyou or follow you on social
where can they find you?
Ashley Nemeth (47:08):
Yeah, they can.
I'm on Instagram at@AshleyNemethOfficial. And I do
have a website. It's in theprocess of being changed over
and added to through some helpof some amazing people. So that
will be changed by my website isAshleyNemeth.com and I'm on
Facebook is Ashley Nemeth aswell, same with LinkedIn.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (47:30):
Amazing, and I'll put all that
information in the descriptionfor this episode. Again, Ashley,
thank you so much. I reallyappreciate the time.
Ashley Nemeth (47:38):
Oh, thank you love it.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (47:40):
You've been listening to a special episode
of the PR and Lattes podcast.
Make sure you stay up to date onall things that are happening
with PRN lattes by visiting ourwebsite prandlattes.com. You can
also follow us on social mediaPR and lattes on Instagram and
PR and lattes on LinkedIn. Thankyou so much for listening to
this special series in honour ofGlobal Accessibility Awareness
Day. We'll have a new episodefor you each day this week
(48:02):
focused on a different aspectaround digital accessibility and
communications. So make sureyou're following PR & Lattes,
wherever you listen to yourpodcasts. I've been your host
Matisse Hamel-Nelis And I can'twait to share our next episode
with you with a brand new latte.
Until then, bye for now.
Hello and welcome to PR & Lattes, the
podcast where you can fill upyour cup on everything PR and
communications. I'm your hostMatisse Hamel-Nelis. And I am so
thrilled to have you join metoday for this very special
episode in honour of GlobalAccessibility Awareness Day.
Before we get started, make sureyou subscribe to this podcast
wherever you're listening to itto get notified each week during
(00:24):
the season when a new episodedrops, and for this week, every
day as we celebrate GlobalAccessibility Awareness Day. You
can also subscribe to ournewsletter by visiting our
website prandlattes.com. On thewebsite you'll find our podcast
episodes plus our amazing blogswith new ones being uploaded
every Monday morning. And ofcourse make sure you're
(00:44):
following us on Instagram at@PRAndLattes and on LinkedIn PR
& Lattes. On today's specialepisode I'm chatting with senior
communication strategist and PRand lattes writer Ashley Nemeth.
Ashley is a passionate advocateand visionary leader dedicated
to creating a more accessibleworld for herself and future
generations. With over a decadeof experience in disability
(01:06):
rights, human rights andaccessibility. Her work is
grounded in the belief thatinclusive communication is
pivotal. Ashley's journeyincludes significant roles with
CNIB otherwise known as theCanadian National Institute for
the Blind, where she was abeacon of leadership and
advocacy earning her nationaland regional recognition
including CBC's Top 40 Under 40.
A seasoned public speaker Ashleyaddresses the barriers faced by
(01:30):
those with disabilitiesadvocating for employment
opportunities and societalinclusion. Her leadership
extends beyond her professionalachievements, Touching Lives
Through motivational speakingand active community advocacy
and development engagement. I ambeyond thrilled to chat with her
today about communicationsaccessibility and her own
experience navigating ourprofession as someone who is
Deafblind. So grab your latte,sit back and enjoy. I am so
(01:53):
excited for today's episode. Iam thrilled to be joined by
Ashley Nemeth on today's episodeto talk about accessibility and
communications, particularlywith the lived experience. So
welcome Ashley to the podcast.
Ashley Nemeth (02:09):
Thanks for having me. I'm so excited.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (02:12):
Oh, this is gonna be so good. Okay, so let's
dive into things and leteverybody get to know who Ashley
is. So can you tell thelisteners about your own journey
within marketing, contentcreation and public relations?
Ashley Nemeth (02:23):
Yeah, so I didn't have like a, I guess, like
formal plan or formal way ofgetting into communication. I
think I just kind of fell intoit. Sort of. So I have always
loved to write, like, ever sinceI was a kid, I love to write and
read and you know, all of thosethings. And then, as I got
(02:48):
older, and started working, Ireally really wanted to be able
to, to write in some form someway for my work. Actually, when
I was in high school, I wasgoing into university, and I was
going into a journalism program.
And I had the opportunity to goand like do a shadow of a
(03:08):
reporter. Back when newspaperswere a big thing. And so it was
a newspaper, here inSaskatchewan. And, you know, I
was able to ask questions andsee how it worked, and all of
these things, and I was soexcited. And then at the end of
the day, I kind of got anopportunity to ask questions.
And I asked the question, um,you know, do you think that
(03:29):
someone who is blind would beable to be successful in this
industry? And she told me no,and went on this big long spiel
about how, why I wouldn't beable to be successful in this,
you know, in this industry. Andso, I was devastated. You know,
17. And so I went on, you know,to go to university for a bit
(03:56):
and my career kind of took medown, you know, business
ownership, and, you know, abunch of different places. And
then I, at a point in time, whenI was 20, ish, I lost all of my
vision.
And then my career pathdrastically shifted, and out of
(04:21):
frustration, I started a blog.
And at that time, I was like,I'm just gonna read it, like,
just like, use it, like a diary,typing away. And then people
started reading and I was like,Oh, whoops, I probably wouldn't
have said that if I thoughtpeople were gonna read it. And
so kind of like just evolvedover over time, you know,
content creation and just, youknow, playing with it a little
(04:45):
bit and then taking it a littlemore seriously. And
communications, as I workedthrough a non-profit was a part
of my role, but it wasn't likemy specific role. And then I
wanted to change in careers, andI've landed in a communications
role. And, you know, over thelast couple of years, I've
really been getting to know moreabout communications and like,
(05:07):
and the role and like some ofthe differences. And yeah, it's
just it's been a really excitingtime. But I've definitely not
had, you know, a formal like,went through a program, planning
and communications, by anymeans. But yeah, it's been a,
it's been an adventure.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (05:25):
It's been a journey, right? Not your
traditional journey, but ajourney nonetheless. So you
mentioned about your sight loss,and your when you were in your
20s, that it went away. And,more recently, also, your
hearing has started todeteriorate to you had
mentioned. So how has yourexperience with Deafblindness
(05:46):
shaped your approach tocommunications and PR?
Ashley Nemeth (05:49):
It's really shifted it I think, you know,
before my hearing loss, it waseasier, I would say, because I
was just so used to be takingeverything in, like, through
audio. And that was how Iexperienced, you know, all of
the communications and thingslike that. And then with my
sight loss, a lot of the time, Iended up using braille through
(06:15):
my through, you know, devices,which limits, or adds an extra
layer of challenge to consumingthe material, because it always
isn't possible. So, you know, asI've been, you know, working in
the communications side ofthings and creating content, my
goal is always to ensure that itcan be accessed not only
(06:39):
through, you know, just a screenreader, I think people often
think that that's just the ielaknow, if you're blind, you use
screen reader.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (06:46):
Yeah.
Ashley Nemeth (06:48):
And so, you know, really pushing for, for it to be
accessible in all ways for allpeople. And you know, just
because, you know, a screenreader exists doesn't mean that
it's going to work for everyone,I think there's not a real
understanding that individualscould have multiple
disabilities, like, it's notjust blindness, and just hearing
(07:09):
loss or, you know, just, youknow, some other purpose that a
lot of times there's, there'sother things, and so, been
really trying to, like educatepeople that I work with, and
through content around, youknow, some of those challenges
and removing as many barriers aspossible.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (07:26):
And I think that leads into the next
question really well, you know,in your work, and I think this
comes across in many, manycases, the people just don't
know what they don't know. Orthey have preconceived notions
of how somebody let's say, withDeafblindness would engage or
interact with technology andthat sort of thing, and how they
(07:46):
would get their job done. So howdo you navigate the digital
space and your technology andensure accessibility not only
for yourself, but others aroundyou?
Ashley Nemeth (07:56):
Yeah, that's definitely is exhausting. Like,
you know, I don't even know howto like, explain it other than
like, it's exhausting. Mentally,it's exhausting emotionally. I
spent a lot of my time,unfortunately, in my current
(08:16):
role at, you know, in a formalcommunications role, trying to
get things in an accessibleformat, so that I can do my job.
I would say, half of my time isspent fighting the accessibility
in the digital space. I thinkthere's a thought that because
it's digital, that anyone canaccess it, you know, it is
(08:37):
inherently accessible, right?
You know, like, when we talkedabout, just had a conversation
recently, you know, at workwhere, you know, they said to
me, Well, you can just use likethe Adobe, like the read
function, you just push it, andit reads all the text. I was
like...okay... You know, but Ican't read that in Braille. So,
(08:59):
you know, as someone withhearing loss, I'm only getting
30% of what someone says. So I'mtaking a lot of effort to like,
piece it together. Socialconversations, that's easier.
When I'm reviewing material thatI don't know, and needs to be
right, I need to be able to doit in braille. And I can't do
that through the Adobe readfunction. You know, and then
(09:21):
there's also the Adobe readfunction skips over all the
images. You know, sometimesthose graphs are important.
So, you know, it's it'sdefinitely been been a huge, a
huge journey, moving out of thenonprofit space, because before
I went into this formalcommunications role I worked in
(09:43):
like the disability world,right. So it was on the minds of
everyone because that's what wedid. Whereas now that I've moved
out of the disability, you know,work. It's not at all on
people's minds, and they'reoften surprised that I can't
(10:05):
access it. I don't know how tofix it. And I've kind of been
approaching it as I'm fixing itfor those coming behind me.
Right? And that's, I thinkthat's the only way that like,
keeps me going, because I'm theonly totally blind individual
that works in the organization.
And I am definitely the onlyDeafblind person. And when I
(10:28):
came into this role, it was veryclear that they were not
prepared for my level ofdisability. And didn't know and
still don't know how to, youknow, ensure that I'm an equal
wheel valued member of a team.
(10:52):
I've had to deal with a lot oflike discrimination and people
not thinking that I'm capable. Iremember like, when I first
started, like, a month or two,and someone said to me, Oh, you
don't need to, you know, worryabout not about, you know,
having to fight withaccessibility, you know, like
you, you have far out exceededany expectations that we had of
(11:15):
you before you started. And Iremember thinking, that's not a
compliment.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (11:21):
No.
Ashley Nemeth (11:22):
So, you know, like, so are you surprised that
I got here? And like, I couldturn on a computer, like, where
are we talking? Like, how loware these expectations? Right.
And so, not only do people, youknow, have these biases that
they don't realize that theyhave. But in the communications,
(11:42):
you know, side of things, whenI'm giving advice and
recommendations, a lot of thetime I'm not taking seriously,
because I don't think peoplethink I know what I'm talking
about. Right? And so it's been,I would say in this last year,
like I've had to fight harderfor accessibility and access
than I've ever fought in mylife.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (12:03):
That, that breaks my heart to be honest
with you, because, you know,everyone likes to say that they
are inclusive, diverse andequitable. But when
accessibility is anafterthought, you aren't being
inclusive, you aren't beingdiverse, you can't be diverse,
because you're alienating aportion of the population. And
clearly, you're not beingequitable in what you're
(12:23):
presenting and providing. So,you know, it comes across more
as a performative measure tosay, you know, we have our DEI
practices and this is what wedo. But when accessibility is
that afterthought, then really,you know, you're not, you're
you're not doing what you sayyou're going to do. Do you think
(12:45):
that there needs to be more pushwithin our profession to upskill
and train on accessibility, notjust for the sake of while we
might have somebody work for uswho has a disability, but rather
for broader reach of theircontent in general?
Ashley Nemeth (13:03):
Yeah, I think so.
I think there needs to be moreeducation. On like, both sides,
because, you know, as I've been,you know, going through this
journey, and I've had thisconversation, because I was
hired, because of their DEIplan, it was the role that was
specified for someone with adisability. So, like, let's be
(13:23):
real, I was a checkbox, righ?
And so they didn't, they werejust looking to check that box,
which a lot is what we see a lotof the time, right? We talked
about accessibility, and they'relike, Okay, well, where's, you
know, I just need to check off,you know, as I go, externally,
(13:43):
right, especially externally,yep. But if you can't create, if
you can't have an organizationor a culture of accessibility
internally, you're never goingto get it right externally.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (13:55):
Yeah.
Ashley Nemeth (13:56):
Right? You know, like, you can't, it's kind of
like that, like old saying, youknow, like, sweep your own
doorstep first.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (14:03):
Yeah.
Ashley Nemeth (14:04):
Right? And like, and so a lot of the time, when
we talk about DE and I andaccess to communication, their
focus is on the external. Andit's not about the internal and
ensuring that you, you start athome, right, and you and you
make sure that your things areaccessible to the best of your
ability. Will it ever be like100%? No, they're like, there's
(14:26):
always going to be things thatyou know, have to change and
have to you have to figure outbut the basics, there needs to
be more more effort, moreeffort, you know, put into it.
Like, I don't understandeverybody's love of PDF. And
(14:47):
then like, what I like, hey,like Joe in a different format,
and they're like, no, no, wedon't know like, it started in a
Word document. Where's it?
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (14:55):
Yeah.
Ashley Nemeth (14:55):
And so like, it's just yeah, it's been
interesting. It's been...It'sbeen a challenge. And I've had a
lot of moments where I've justhad to be like, nothing nice to
say say nothing at all.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (15:10):
It's funny, you bring up the PDF, so I love
a PDF. But I also am fully awarethat you have to properly format
the PDF for it to be read. And Ithink people think as soon as I
change it in Acrobat intoAcrobat and make it a PDF, I'm
good to go. Yep, there's morethat needs to be done. There's a
whole ISO standard, right interms of the technical backend
(15:33):
on what you need to do to a PDFin order for it to be
accessible. I'll give a quickshout out here, then, you know,
if you have a PDF, and you wantto see if it's actually
accessible, at least, at aglance, I would say because you
still have to manually check it.
But from an automatedstandpoint, that there is the
PDF Accessibility Checker 2024from Axes4 that you can download
(15:54):
for free, it works on PCs, thatyou can just drag and drop your
PDF document to see if it'saccessible, again, from an
automated standpoint, but youstill want to make sure you're
testing it yourself. You know,going through the reading order
of your PDF, and for some peoplemeans just saying a reading
order and a PDF might be Whatare you talking about reading
(16:15):
orders a thing and a PDF, havingit be tagged as a thing in a
PDF, you know, adding alt textto your images or image
descriptions, a thing and a PDFhaving proper heading structure
there, it's more than justsimply, you know, take a Word
document and change it into aPDF. And also when it comes to
the Word documents, making surethat those are accessible in
themselves, right using theStyles pane. And you know,
(16:37):
Ashley, you and I are doingpresentations on this sort of
thing, and could go on and onand on about it. But there's
more than just simply pushing abutton and making it accessible.
And I think that's whateverybody's hoping for is that
easy button when it comes toaccessibility. And we see this
now with websites, right withoverlays. And I'd love to hear
your thoughts on overlays onwebsites. For the viewers out
(17:00):
there, actually, that was justone really, really big me like,
Oh, don't get me started. Butyou know, companies and
organizations, I think, havethe, for the most part, they're
not intentionally trying toalienate or trying to keep
people out of either theirorganization or you know,
(17:23):
engaging with their contentexternally. I think it's what
they don't know what they don'tknow. And when they are told
about a quick fix. And I thinkthat's the big issue in
accessibility right now is thatthere are these quote unquote,
quick fixes that actually don'tfix, they cause more issues, and
that sort of thing. And one ofthose is overlays. So I would
(17:44):
love you from your perspective,you know, when you engage with a
website that does have one ofthese overlays, and we're not
going to mention any names,because we don't want to get
sued. But I am talking to KarlGroves as part of this series
for Global AccessibilityAwareness Day. And we are going
to talk about all thingsoverlay. So stay tuned for that
later this week. But you know,actually, from an end user
(18:07):
perspective, you know, assomebody who uses your own
assistive technology to engagewhen you engage with overlays,
what does that experience like?
Ashley Nemeth (18:17):
That's funny, you should bring up overlays
actually just had a conversationsomebody had sent me it well,
couldn't we just do this to ourwebsite and make it more
accessible? And I was like, Oh,heck no. So you know, like, I'll
go to a website, and it's like,click here to make your site
more accessible. And I'm like,Oh, that's cute. No, they just,
(18:40):
they add a layer of challenge,they actually add a layer of
like, less accessibility in someways. You know, especially for
someone who's trying to use itwith a screen reader or braille
display. A lot of the times thatoverly, like, makes weird
layers, like within the website,and so you're not able to
really, like navigate it, Ifind. Yeah, I actually find that
(19:04):
makes them worse, in some ways,like, they're, they're terrible.
Like they really are. And Ithink they, they do just give
people like that quick fix, andthey think that it's great. And
I have noticed, you know, as I'mworking to help, you know, the
organization I'm working for,you know, increase accessibility
of, you know, websites anddocuments and just knowing about
(19:26):
accessibility, there is thisdesire to have that quick fix
because, you know, everyorganization I feel like
nowadays doesn't have doesn'thave the capacity right to add
more things. And so it's like,well, I Googled this and I put
my website in and it said thatit was fully accessible. They
got a good score, but yet noneof your form fields are labeled.
(19:51):
You know, none of like I can'tyou don't headings lists, you
don't have a links list. Andthere's so many organizations
and organizations, websites outthere claiming to give you like
an audit in like three seconds,you know, and then like, you
know, fix your website or, youknow, make it accessible. And
(20:12):
it's a huge, it's, it's a hugeproblem because all these people
are, they're just takingadvantage of, of organizations
and people, right? And they'retrying to capitalize on on the
DEI side of things, and there'shuge money. And so they're not
trying to capitalize on it, butit does make things a little
more challenging for sure.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (20:33):
So, you know, let's overlays being the
negative, what are some toolsand technologies that instead
have been game changers for you,particularly as a communicator
that have helped, you know,bring positive change both
whether to yourself in terms ofbeing able to do your work, or
even for an organization who'strying to be more accessible and
(20:54):
inclusive for their staff andpotentially external folks?
Ashley Nemeth (20:57):
I think that like, the biggest positive
change is that even though wesee, you know, a lot of these
DEI plans and things like that,especially in like
communication, you know, they'restarting these plans, because
they're being mandated to orbecause, you know, now it's
being kind of like this, likethe thing to do, right, the
(21:18):
right thing to do. And eventhough sometimes they are lip
service, and in some ways, thefact that there is a plan, and
the fact that we're talkingabout it, I think is a huge
change, right? Because we itnever used to be talked about,
if you wanted to have somethingfix, like you need to email a
developer, like, you know, like,there was not an easy way to
(21:44):
give feedback or talk about it.
So I think as we talk about it,I think people are becoming more
and more aware and are askingthe question is this, you know,
can you access this or, youknow, do you need in a different
format, you know, those kinds ofthings. And then you know, with
things like the accessibilitychecker in a Word document, or
the accessibility checker withinPDF, I think those are huge.
(22:04):
They're not, you still have togo in and fix it. It's like to
know what you're doing,unfortunately, but, you know,
there's there. So then, youknow, when someone says, Well,
your documents not accessible,and they can kind of get a
better idea of what that means.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (22:22):
Yeah.
Ashley Nemeth (22:23):
Right? Because I think a lot of the times, that's
the problem is, we throw aroundthe words accessible, like, you
know, like, it's nothing, but alot of people don't even really
know what that mean. Like, if Isay this isn't accessible, they
have no idea, right? Like, I'mspeaking a different language,
you know, for them. And so themore we talked about it, and the
more it's, you know, integratedinto technology, I think it you
(22:45):
know, it's helpful to get peoplemore aware.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (22:49):
Yeah, one thing I like that you brought up
are the accessibility checks inlike Word and PowerPoint, and
even Excel, the Microsoft suite,they've really done a great job
in an in trying to educate folkson the accessibility as long as
they know that that buttonsthere, right under review, Check
Accessibility across allMicrosoft platforms there. But
(23:11):
it not only tells you what theerror is, it also tells you how
do you fix it, and why is itimportant to fix. And I really
like that versus just saying,This isn't accessible, it needs
to be fixed. Okay, but why,right? Education is such a big
part in it. Because, like yousaid, we people tend to throw
the word accessibility orinaccessible, around and the
(23:33):
other person doesn't reallyunderstand what it is that we
mean by that, you know, becauseto them, Well, I can see it, I
can, you know, I can scrolldown, I can click on things, I'm
fine, but not everybody engageswith the content in the same
way. And so I think thateducation piece, I really love
that you flag that becausethat's key, and, you know, kudos
(23:53):
to Microsoft, for ensuring thatit's not just here's the error
and how to fix it. But here'swhy it's important to fix it.
Ashley Nemeth (24:01):
Yeah, I think too, like I've run into a lot of
the times where people when Iexplained like, why it's not
accessible. And they're like,Oh, well, couldn't you just go
in and like, fix the readingorder? And I kind of giggle
because I'm like, I can't fixwhat I can't see.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (24:15):
Yeah.
Ashley Nemeth (24:15):
Right. And so I had to say that so many more
times than I ever thought like,I honestly never thought I'd say
it in the first place. But I'vehad to say it quite a few times,
where I'm like, I can't I can'tdo that. I can't see it.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (24:29):
I had somebody when I was working on a
document once they were puttinga bunch of information in the
footer. And I said, you know,just as an FYI, a majority of
folks who use assistivetechnology, particularly text to
speech software, like JAWS orNVDA or voiceover, have it
turned off to read the header orfooter and they were just blown
(24:50):
away and they said, Well, whyI'm putting content there. I
said, Okay, think about amagazine or a book. Right? What
if you are sighted and you arereading yet, as it is, do you
read the header and footer onevery single page as you go
through your pay the document?
And they're like, Well, no, Ijust skip it because it's a
repetition. And I said, so whywould you inflict that on
somebody who wants to justengage with the content as
(25:13):
anybody else, you'll access itdifferently. But that's the
thing. So you want to make sureany of the important information
that isn't a repetition, like apage number, the name of the
book at the bottom of every pagekind of thing. Anything that's
important is actually in thewhat I call the work area, or
wherever you put your regularstuff, versus in the header or
footer, and they were just blownaway by that concept. And like,
(25:36):
oh, all the time we've put thisinformation in the footer, I'm
like, Well, now you know, right.
So moving forward, you won't dothat. And it will provide a
better access. And you. And myphilosophy has always been you
never know who's going to get ahold of your document, or your
presentation or your Excelsheet. So by ensuring that you
(25:58):
are practicing accessibilitybest practices and creating
them, no matter who gets it,they'll be able to access the
information.
Ashley Nemeth (26:06):
Yeah, I think there's a big misperception, I
guess, you know, I've had a lotof conversations, you know, in,
in my communications role werelike, well, like, it's only
like, how many people would beaccessing it? Right. And I, it's
a frustrating conversation, butI guess like, in, you know, most
people have never interactedwith someone who's blind. And
(26:30):
most, and I, that number is evensmaller when we talk about deaf
blindness. And so in their eyes,right, like, it's not a huge, a
huge community, a huge audience.
But the reality is, is that itis.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (26:45):
It is yeah.
Ashley Nemeth (26:46):
You know, like, it's very significant. Just
because you don't see it doesn'tmean it's not there.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (26:51):
Yeah. And not only that, like, for myself,
I wear glasses, I'm sorry, Iwould consider myself sighted.
However, I tend to learn orabsorb information better when
it is audible. So I'll take adocument, and I'll have it play
through assistive technology toread it out to me. So I know
that I absorb it better. Right?
So I'm not the, quote unquote,typical user of assistive
(27:13):
technology, but I utilize it tobetter understand and absorb the
information given to me. Right,and others would be like, Oh,
well, you know, you don't havesight loss. So why are you using
it? But it's, it's there tohelp. Right? There's so many
features and technologyadvancement, technological
advancements that have been madefor, you know, accessibility
(27:35):
purposes that other people haveused and utilized, like
captions.
Ashley Nemeth (27:42):
But I think that's that conversation too,
right? Like, we, when we talkabout accessibility, we look at
like, permanent, right, likepeople who have permanent
disabilities, but the reality is100% of people will be disabled
at some point in their life.
Whether it be the onlydifference is if it'll be
temporary, or permanent. Right?
(28:02):
So like, you're using yourphone, and it's sunny outside,
and you can't see it. Right. Sothen people will, you know, kind
of use some, you know, assistivetechnology that to manage with
that, right? You know, peopleuse zoom all the time on their
phones, right? Because thescreens are small, or the words
are small, right? Or, like yousaid, like, you take things in
(28:24):
easier through, you know,through auditory feedback. So,
you know, you're using the, youknow, technology to, to read
that back, or even like the readfunction and Adobe or you know,
like, so we all have uses forthese things, whether it's just
if it's temporary or permanent.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (28:44):
Exactly. So then how do you see the future
of accessibility andcommunications evolving? And
what role do you hope to play inthat?
Ashley Nemeth (28:52):
I think I see. I think I've seen like, sometimes
it feels like we've like 10steps forward, five back.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (29:00):
Yeah.
Ashley Nemeth (29:01):
If that makes sense, right? Because Because
we're a society who very much islike, wants to follow the trend,
right, we want to be relevant,and everybody's fighting to be
relevant. And there's so muchgoing on. Like, it's, you know,
it's 24/7 you know, media andcontent. And so, as people
strive to be relevant, sometimesthat takes over. And so I see
(29:27):
communications getting better inknowledge around accessibility
and what that means and how tocreate more accessible content.
But at the same time, somecontent and trends take us a
step back, right or a couple ofsteps back, you know, like when
we we've now become very relianton like, especially like social
(29:51):
media over the last, especiallyfor like to say like last six
months for me that I've reallynoticed. That is like videos. We
have come very reliant onvideos, but videos that don't
have any speech. Like they'redoing something and there's like
sound, or they're like pointingto something, right, but they're
(30:11):
not speaking. And so that is,that's something I've come
across a lot lately, even withorganizations. And so like I
said, like, it's it feelssometimes like, you know, one
step forward one step back. Soyou know what, it's funny
though, because in order to winor making those videos, they're
really making captions.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (30:32):
Yeah.
Ashley Nemeth (30:33):
Right? So like, it's like, just, like, speak.
Yeah, words to, you know. Soyeah, it really feels like 10
steps forward, one step back.
But I think my whole career nomatter what I've been doing over
the years, has always been abouttrying to make things better for
(30:54):
those for others coming behindme. And so, you know,
throughout, as I continue, in mycommunications career, my goal
is to really have an impact inthe in the industry around
accessibility of content, andmaterials. But on a bigger side,
accessibility for people to bein the industry. Yeah, I don't
(31:17):
think there's a lot of peoplewho are blind or Deafblind who
work in communications, peopleare very surprised when I tell
them what I do. Very surprised.
And, and this shouldn't beright. Like, we, as individuals
who are blind or you know,individuals disability, we, we
(31:37):
want to consume all the contentto, you know, like, we are
normal, people who want youknow, to consume all types of
content, we're all types ofpeople, like, we don't all just
want to, you know, consumedisability content either,
right? We want to consume all ofthe content. In fact, as someone
who's disabled, a lot of them, Idon't want to consume disability
(31:59):
content.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (32:00):
Yeah.
Ashley Nemeth (32:01):
Because I live it. And so you have to find ways
to like escape from that, insome ways. You know, so, yeah,
that's what I hope to happen.
Who knows? We never know whatwill happen. That's my goal.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (32:17):
That's the goal. That's the goal. And
that's all you know, we canthink positively about the
future and where things aregoing and hope that that's where
they'll go. Do you ever getannoyed as somebody who has
lived experience, that you aresort of the person who has to do
all always has to do theeducating to your colleagues and
potential clients aboutaccessibility and inclusion?
(32:39):
Versus it sort of be woven innaturally into that culture, if
you will.
Ashley Nemeth (32:47):
Yeah, definitely.
I've been an advocate for avery, very long time. And
because I'm not someone to stayquiet, no, someone to just write
an email. I'm very open. And I'mvery, you know, honest. And I
will say, what needs to be said,hard or not. It does become
(33:10):
exhausting. You know, like,people will say, Oh, well, you
know, you're doing such anamazing job for the blind, you
know, and deaf blindcommunities, you're really
paving the way for for othersand, you know, changing as
changing people's minds orperception. And there is times
(33:31):
where I just want someone elseto pave the way for me.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (33:37):
Yeah.
Ashley Nemeth (33:38):
Right? I don't always want to be the first. But
it feels like I very much am.
Especially in Saskatchewan,where I live. I feel like in
Saskatchewan, we're like 20years behind when it comes to
accessibility, disability,understanding all of that. And
so sometimes they get really,really frustrated. Like,
(33:58):
remember to filter what comesout of my mouth. You know, like,
Oh, don't say that out loud,actually. So... So yeah, it it
really is that and I will saylike, it has a huge impact on my
mental health has had a hugeimpact on my mental health. And
so it's something that I have toreally careful in some ways,
(34:19):
right? Because I it does becomepersonal because I'm fighting
people see me fighting for thosecoming behind me. But at the
same time, I'm, I'm in it, I'mfighting for me to have access.
And it can really weigh on yourmental health when you're always
(34:41):
fighting. It seems like everyday you're fighting not only
within the workplace, not onlywith you know trying to consume
content, but just in your daily,your daily life. You know,
trying to be a parent trying tobe a wife, trying to just get
your hours to work.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (34:59):
So with that sort of in mind, you know,
and you flagged a couple oftimes where, you know, you
mentioned that some of yourcolleagues were like, we weren't
expecting that, and you kind ofbecome the phrase is inspiration
porn. And for those who havenever heard this phrase before,
and are just listening, going,What the heck are you talking
(35:20):
about? You know, inspirationporn is when you basically put
somebody with a disability on apedestal, for doing something
that is an everyday task, butthey just do it differently,
right, then maybe what you wouldexpect, but it is a day to day
tasks, you're doing your job andyou know, day to day task. So
(35:42):
what are some misconceptionsthat you think are out there
that you would like to squashwhen it comes to sight loss and
deaf blindness? Particularly inthe professional world?
Ashley Nemeth (35:53):
I think the biggest one for me is the lower
standards or expectations ofpeople who have disabilities, I
think there's a bigmisperception that we're not
educated, we're not skilled,we're not knowledgeable in in,
you know, lots of differentareas. And you know, it, you're
always feeling keep to proveyourself, and so like, the
biggest change that I would wantis that individuals disability
(36:17):
of any kind are not having toprove their worth, right. We
don't ask all employees to provetheir worth every single day. We
would never, like it justwouldn't be a great work
environment. And so, you know,asking, or making people feel
like they need to prove theirworth and prove their skills and
(36:39):
things like that, like, andincrease the standards or
expectations of them is a hugeone for me. The one thing we
talked about, like inspirationporn, and I have to I have to
remind myself that not everybodyknows that phrase. So when I say
it to like, non-disabled people,they I'm, it's a good thing. I
(37:00):
can't see their faces, becausethe noise that they make us
enough where I'm like, oh, no,everybody knows what that means.
So they just hear the word pornand think all sorts of things.
But I remember I don't rememberthe company what we shouldn't
say companies anyway, becausethat's about you can get sued.
(37:21):
There was this, remember, therewas these like advertisements.
And it was like disabledindividuals. So like an amputee
running a track. Or someone withone arm playing tennis. A blind
person hiking, like, there wasall of these different things.
And it was like, What's yourexcuse?
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (37:42):
I remember that.
Ashley Nemeth (37:43):
Right? And I was like, excuse, you know, right.
So like, those types of things.
They really, really drive melike, so you think I'm not
capable, sir. Like let's have aconversation.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (38:03):
Yeah.
Ashley Nemeth (38:03):
Because you need to be educated.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (38:04):
I remember, I want to say was the I think it
was 2018 Summer Olympics. Ithink that was a year that we
had Summer Olympics. And achannel in the UK was going to
air them both the Olympics andthe Paralympics. And for the
Paralympics, they created thisvideo that was we are
superhuman, superhuman, and itfeatured now any Olympian
(38:29):
Paralympian Olympian, to mesuperhuman, I cannot do what
like I would I like to jokearound like, I have six gold
medals and sitting in my closet,I don't know we're close, could
never. So you know, an Olympianor Paralympian, to me, you're
superhuman. It's just amazingwhat you can accomplish. But in
(38:49):
this commercial, which was topromote the Paralympics, again,
they had people woven in withdisability to or just doing day
to day tasks, taking care oftheir child brushing their
teeth. Like that one really gotme it was like, and I remember
thinking at first, this is sucha commercial. And then I took
the Accessible Media Productionprogram at Mohawk College, and
(39:10):
my teacher said, introduced meto this concept of inspiration
porn, because I had never heardabout it before. And I was just,
you know, taken down for sure.
And I was like, I feeldisgusting. For being like, this
is such a big commercial.
Everybody. Look, it's soinclusive. Right? No, like he
was promoting that, you know,just doing day to day tasks is,
(39:34):
you know, a huge accomplishment.
You should be so proud. Whenreally no, you're just living
life day to day now. You know,swimming and winning a gold
medal at the Olympics orParalympics? Yes, superhuman,
kudos to you. You deserve thecommercial but the day to day
stuff. It sort of demoralizes Iguess, and diminishes the what
(39:54):
people with disabilities doevery day. Right and puts it on
like the oh my god, you're sobrave. That's the other phrase,
you are so brave, that you heara lot of right. So I feel like
that's something particularly ascommunicators, we need to be
cognizant of when we arecreating campaigns, and when we
(40:14):
are creating content overall,are we doing it because it's
tokenism? Or like, oh, we justneed to we need to check a box?
Or is it being authentic to whatwe're trying to do? And do we
have those policies and thingsin place within our
organizations that speak tolike, we were hiring people with
disabilities, they have accessto the information they need,
(40:36):
versus we're just hiring them,and then we're, like, well,
figure it out. Kind ofsituations. Right? So yes.
Ashley Nemeth (40:45):
Yeah. That the tokenism that tokenism piece
like, and I think one of theproblems that I've noticed in
communications, you know, in it,when we talk about like
inclusion, right, is that, like,we're talking inclusion, oh, we
got to make sure that we have,you know, an individual using a
wheelchair in that photo. Andthen we have someone of colour
(41:06):
in that photo, somebody whorepresents, you know, the queer
community in that photo. Andthey're trying to, like, make
sure like these staged photoshave all of these people.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (41:17):
Yeah.
Ashley Nemeth (41:17):
The reality is, is that a lot of disabilities
are invisible. So, you know,putting someone in the photo who
utilizes a wheelchair, I mean, agreat like, but is it true
representation? Or are you justtrying to show that you consider
these things, right? Like, whenyou have, you know, ads and
things where it's like, anindividual in a wheelchair, and
(41:39):
they're kind of staged? Youknow? Why, like, What's your
intention for that? Like, whatdo you what are you trying to
get across? Because that's notinclusion?
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (41:50):
No.
Ashley Nemeth (41:50):
Right? Like, by any means. It's not, it's
absolutely not inclusion, andthat's, you know, in the
disability community, you know,for, you know, people of, you
know, different races andethnicities, you know, that's
the thing, right, like,inclusion isn't making sure that
there's one of us in a photo.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (42:07):
We can talk about that for hours and hours
and hours.
Ashley Nemeth (42:09):
Oh, yeah.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (42:11):
But let's get to the question that, you
know, tries to bring in hope andinspire, you know, what advice
would you give businesses, andthis is, again, not being like,
actually, you're the expert inall things. But rather, you
know, from your experience, whatadvice would you give businesses
who are looking to improve theircommunication strategies to be
more inclusive?
Ashley Nemeth (42:29):
I think it's hard to say, I look at your content
from all kinds of angles, right?
Like, try to put yourself in theshoes. Like, if I couldn't see
this ad? What is it? What is it?
What is it? What am I say? Whatam I conveying? Right? You know,
and try to really, like, look atyour content. And I always say,
(42:51):
like, I've always said, like,you know, when someone says
something really stupid, I'llsay, you know, I think you
should just say that back toyourself out loud, and just sit
on it for a moment. And, and Isay that, like, you know, kind
of tongue in cheek, but it'strue, right? Read your content
out loud. And, you know, justkind of sit with that does it?
(43:12):
Does it really conveyed themessage that you want to convey?
Right. And I think, you know,the other one is just to, like,
learn, and be open minded andtake small steps. It's not about
changing everything overnight.
It's about you know, makinglittle steps like, using how to,
you know, using styles and wordor, you know, like, just, you
(43:33):
know, learning and changingbehaviors slowly and integrating
it in authentically.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (43:41):
Yeah. Yeah.
And I think that really answersmy next question is what's one
step that they can take to maketheir communications more
accessible to everyone? And it'seducating yourself. And, you
know, I like to say, the lowesthanging fruit, because you see
them everywhere are with images,add your alt text, right, unless
it is decorative, right, youknow, and what we mean by
(44:03):
decorative and and correct me ifI'm wrong here, actually, if
it's literally a circle, on apage, because you're like, it
just adds a little bit ofcolour. It's pretty, that is
decorative. You don't need tohear that. But if it is
something that is, it's beingused as a way to provide more
context, or provide informationin some way, give it all text.
(44:25):
And if it's on social media, ifyou're using an image, you're
using it for a reason, it is notdecorative. It needs it's all
text or image description.
Ashley Nemeth (44:36):
Yeah, and you know, I think like those are
that's like, one of the easiestfor accessibility is to add alt
text to any image, right? Like,if it's a photo, add alt text,
it's a graph, alt text. Youknow, like, what are you trying
to convey? Alt text.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (44:54):
Yeah. Is there another tip or step that
you would say you know that theycan start to people can start to
incorporate right away to helpthem be more accessible in what
they're creating, whether it beon social on web or in
documents?
Ashley Nemeth (45:09):
I think just be like mindful, I think we've
really come to a place where weover design. We've
overcomplicated like, you know,it's like a poster contest every
day. When it comes to content,you know, like, less is more,
right? It's really more readablefor everyone. So I think just
like being cognizant of, youknow, over decorating, you know,
(45:33):
it's like, it's like when youlike, go into someone's house,
right, like, your accent wall ofroses is great. Would you do
your whole house and it?
Probably not?
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (45:41):
Yeah, yeah.
It reminds me of that quote fromCoco Chanel, where she basically
says, before you leave thehouse, look in the mirror and
remove one piece one article,because less is more. So Ashley,
I can't thank you enough forbeing on this episode. I have,
you know, I love talking to youabout this stuff and learning
(46:04):
more and getting moreperspective and how I can be
more accessible and inclusiveand what I do. So thank you.
Thank you. Thank you. I do haveone final question. And I
promise this isn't a doozyunless it is and you're just
like, I have so many options.
But what is your favoritecaffeinated, go to beverage.
Ashley Nemeth (46:24):
Well, I have a problem? A real caffeine
problem. It doesn't reallyaffect me anymore, because I
feel like it's just part of mybloodstream. So I'm a coffee
girl. Definitely, but not like afancy coffee girl because I want
to taste the coffee. Right? Solike, I don't want my coffee
cake. So I so I'm very much likeyou got a really good cup of
(46:51):
coffee with a little bit ofcream and a little bit of sugar.
But I want to taste like thecoffee. I don't want it to be
dessert.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (46:59):
I love that. I love that. So again,
Ashley, thank you so much forbeing on the podcast today. If
people want to get in touch withyou or follow you on social
where can they find you?
Ashley Nemeth (47:08):
Yeah, they can.
I'm on Instagram at@AshleyNemethOfficial. And I do
have a website. It's in theprocess of being changed over
and added to through some helpof some amazing people. So that
will be changed by my website isAshleyNemeth.com and I'm on
Facebook is Ashley Nemeth aswell, same with LinkedIn.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (47:30):
Amazing, and I'll put all that
information in the descriptionfor this episode. Again, Ashley,
thank you so much. I reallyappreciate the time.
Ashley Nemeth (47:38):
Oh, thank you love it.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (47:40):
You've been listening to a special episode
of the PR and Lattes podcast.
Make sure you stay up to date onall things that are happening
with PRN lattes by visiting ourwebsite prandlattes.com. You can
also follow us on social mediaPR and lattes on Instagram and
PR and lattes on LinkedIn. Thankyou so much for listening to
this special series in honour ofGlobal Accessibility Awareness
Day. We'll have a new episodefor you each day this week
(48:02):
focused on a different aspectaround digital accessibility and
communications. So make sureyou're following PR & Lattes,
wherever you listen to yourpodcasts. I've been your host
Matisse Hamel-Nelis And I can'twait to share our next episode
with you with a brand new latte.
Until then, bye for now.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.