January 7, 2025 • 17 mins
In this episode of Practical Access, hosts Lisa Dieker and Rebecca Hines welcome Dr. Honora Wall, an expert on dyscalculia, a math-related learning disability. Dr. Wall, founder of the Dyscalculia Training Research Institute (DTRI), sheds light on the unique challenges faced by individuals with dyscalculia, offering practical strategies for teachers and families to better support students struggling with math.
Key takeaways include:
- Understanding Dyscalculia: Dr. Wall explains how dyscalculia differs from dyslexia and other neurodivergent traits, emphasizing that it's not a deficiency but a difference in brain wiring.
- Practical Classroom Strategies: Tips for identifying early signs, using real-time feedback, and incorporating supportive tools like visual aids and step-by-step guides to make math less intimidating.
- Reducing Math Anxiety: Families can focus on fun, low-pressure math activities like puzzles, card games, or discussions about tempo in music to create positive associations with math.
- Empowering Students: Dr. Wall highlights the importance of fostering a supportive, judgment-free environment where mistakes are viewed as opportunities for growth.
Whether you're an educator or a parent, this episode offers valuable advice to help students overcome barriers and thrive.
We love to hear from our listeners! If you have any questions, feel free to reach out. We look forward to receiving your questions on our Twitter (@Accesspractical) or Instagram (@Practical_Access).
Resources:
The Dyscalculia Training Research Institute (DTRI) Website: https://www.thedtri.org/
Teaching Students with Dyscalculia: https://www.amazon.com/Teaching-Students-Dyscalculia-Honora-Wall/dp/1732760160
Honora Wall’s Podcast, What in the World is Dyscalculia: https://rss.com/podcasts/dyscalculia/
Honora Wall’s YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqXKkHFgVlACI_NqM2J34pg
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Unknown (00:00):
Music.
Lisa Dieker (00:07):
Welcome to Practical Access. I'm Lisa
Dieker.
Rebecca Hines (00:09):
And I'm Rebecca Hines and Lisa, I'm so excited
about today's guest because thetopic is one that is so precise
and so under. Talked about, whodo we have?
Lisa Dieker (00:23):
Yeah, so we're excited to have with us today.
And welcome Dr. Honora Wall, whois a speaker, author, teacher
and trainer in a topic that wehave to all practice saying,
which is dyscalculia for thosewho and again, we hear it in
lots of different ways, but it'sreally map disabilities in
short. So welcome Dr. HonoraWall, and excited to have you
(00:45):
with us.
Honora Wall (00:46):
Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. I love
talking about this, so it's suchan important topic. Thanks for
bringing awareness.
Lisa Dieker (00:53):
Yeah, so I'm going to kick it off with the first
question. I happen to be aparent of a kid with a
disability and has Tourettes anddyslexia. This is one that we
didn't have in our bucket, butoftentimes the literacy piece
gets in the way of the mathpiece. And so help us understand
the difference in kids who havelanguage based problems versus
(01:14):
who have math problems, and howmay teachers think about that in
their teaching, especially inmath.
Honora Wall (01:21):
Yeah, it's such an interesting trajectory. So both
dyslexia and dyscalculia cameabout in the research in the
same time, about the 1930s butreading really took off as a
national interest where math didnot. So a lot of teachers feel
like this is a brand new thing.
We just made up, and now we'recalling it a math learning
disability, but it's not new.
(01:43):
It's just new to us. And I thinkthat's an important difference.
And you might know, you probablyhave already seen this with your
child, that anythingneurodivergent, dyslexia,
dyscalculia, dysgraphia,Tourettes, ADHD, autism
spectrum, there's a lot ofcrossover, and it's almost like
I see these individual neurodivergent pieces, like a water
(02:04):
color, and then they have placeswhere they blend. So that's a
really interesting thing to seein people who are neuro
divergent, which, for the youknow, quick definition is just a
different way of thinking,different brain wiring, not a
deficiency, just a difference.
And what you see with thedifference between math and
(02:25):
dyslexia, there's a couple ofkey ones. The one is the area in
the brain where they bothhappen. And I won't go too far
down the neurology rabbit hole,although I love talking about
the brain, but those happen indifferent parts of the brain,
and they express differently. Sothe reading piece that we're
very familiar with is studentsstruggling with letters,
(02:45):
struggling with reading fluency,and then later struggling to get
conceptual understanding fromprinted text. It doesn't create
the same mental images that itwould for a person who's not
dyslexic, what we see withdyscalculia is just a real
uncomfortable space for numbers.
(03:08):
What do they mean? What doquantities mean? Time, money and
place value never make anysense. And that fluency we're
looking for doing any kind ofmental math, which is a total
parlor trick. Please quitholding it up as the gold
standard, everyone. But the ideaof doing that mental math is
near impossible for a lot ofpeople, and very intimidating.
Rebecca Hines (03:33):
You know, I love the watercolor example in math.
I know that a lot of teachers,you mentioned how the two areas
grew together, and we reallyonly focused on the reading
side. In language arts, can youbreak down a little bit for us
(03:57):
to understand, if I'm a teacher,what would be some of the early
signs of dyscalculia?
Honora Wall (04:06):
Or dyscalculia, dyscalcia that people come up
with anything. Some of yourearly signs can happen as young
as first and second grade. Andof course, at that time, we're
still waiting for humandevelopment. Everyone progresses
at different times. So we don'treally start looking for
learning disabilities untilthird or fourth. But what you're
(04:26):
going to see is students who areintelligent, sometimes highly,
highly intelligent, and we thinkthey should be able to get this
stuff quickly. And we teach alesson on Monday, the student is
kind of with us on Tuesday, byWednesday, they're not sure what
we're talking about. And by theFriday test, they don't think
they've ever seen thisinformation before. And the
(04:48):
other key thing for dyscalculiais we will keep repeating
especially those basic facts,because your brain loses them
like water through a colander ifyou have dyscalculia, but we
drill those basic facts, andthey're just not sticking, even
if the student seems to get themon on day one, it's just gone by
(05:09):
day three. And that reallyimpacts their ability to finish
assessments the way we want themto and in the amount of time we
give them. But you can see it atvery young ages.
Rebecca Hines (05:20):
So, so in describing this, it sounds a lot
like how dyslexia might presentwith those early spelling tests.
Would you say that's a fairdescription?
Honora Wall (05:33):
Yes, yes. You will have a student who knows the
vocab, and they're working ontheir spelling all week, and
then they sit down to take thatspelling test, and you think,
wow, was was that phonetic?
Where did that come from? Andyou're surprised, because the
assessment does not match whatyou expect based on
capabilities. And the same thatsame thing will happen with
math.
Lisa Dieker (05:55):
Great, yeah, and I knew Honora one of the problems
in math is that, and with alearning disability is it's a
system of failure, so I have tofail in math long enough before
you diagnose me. And now I'mfrustrated. And is it, you know?
Now, is it attention? Is itbehavior? Is it math? And so I'm
curious, you know, for yourthoughts about, like, my
(06:19):
favorite in working in this areais that, you know, fractions,
every kid does poorly infractions, like, like, it's just
part of development. Yet, whatdoes that kid look so different?
And how might I lower theiranxiety, increase their success,
maybe before they getidentified, even though I smell
it in second grade or thirdgrade, and yet they haven't
(06:42):
failed long enough. What wouldbe some things you might suggest
I do to build that bridge to getthat kid past everything?
Because it's not just fractionsare going to fail at. They're
going to fail at everything.
Honora Wall (06:52):
Yeah, Lisa, I have so many tangents I want to go
off, but I'm going to try tothrow them out and click and get
back to answering the question.
The first is, maybe we'd bebetter at fractions if we quit
trying to squish algebra intofourth grade. But I'll let that
one go, and my other one isthat, yes, a lot of people do
struggle with fractions, somaybe we need to look at that
piece and give some extrasupport to all students. Let
(07:14):
them have a multiplication list,not the chart, the old fashioned
times tables in front of them,that way they can look up the
numbers you need them to look upfor the numeracy piece while
they're focusing on theconceptual part or the algorithm
part. There's nothing wrong withjust following the algorithm.
Steps and procedures are how youget it done. And for
neurodivergent students, if wecan help them get it done, then
(07:37):
they're much more interested inhaving a conceptual conversation
with us, but the reverse is nottrue from from my experience,
but let's just give them someextra support. You know, I've
been making banana bread forprobably 30 years or more, and
I'm still going to open up therecipe book and just make sure
(07:58):
I've got the right amount offlour and the right amount of
butter, I'm going to give myselfthat support because I want my
bread to taste good once I'vebaked it. So I feel like we
remove support on our timeline,not on the students timeline,
and that is an easy, easy fixfor any teacher. You don't have
to buy anything, you don't haveto change anything. You don't
(08:20):
have to replace your program.
Just give a little extrasupport. Let the student move
away from it as they arecomfortable.
Rebecca Hines (08:29):
And I love that.
I love your analogy, and alsothis focus on, you know when
things are appropriate. Andalong those lines, I know that
you have examined before thisidea, this idea of the
importance of real-timefeedback. So can you explain the
importance of that feedback andthe proximity of the feedback to
(08:50):
the actual event, so that ouraudience can understand how this
impacts kids?
Honora Wall (08:58):
Oh, yeah, that is such an interesting part about
brain research too. We knowthat, like our brain at all
times, all day, without us beingaware of it will make a
prediction, and then it wantsconfirmation. And if we predict
something and we are right, westrengthen those neurological
connections. And if we predictsomething and we're wrong, we
(09:19):
weaken them. If we get nofeedback right or wrong, then
what do we do with those neuronsthat just kind of float out
there, they're not reallycoupled with with dendrites,
that means we're not rememberingit and we're not recalling it
later. So instant feedback isreally helpful, and I think
that's another easy thingteachers can do. Is when you're
(09:40):
with the student at a desk andyou're letting them do the work,
see what's going on, and thenjust tell them, hey, you added
here. I actually want you tomultiply at that step. Let's do
another one. Good. Youmultiplied, perfect. And now you
can walk away from the desk, butyou told them exactly what they
did wrong and exactly how to fixit. Now you're strengthening
(10:01):
that connection. You're givingthem mastery. They can now
practice to increase mastery,and they know what you want from
them. I think a lot of times weact like math is this big
secret, and you either know itor you don't, you're in the
club, or you're not allowed inthe club at all, and honestly,
it's just math.
Rebecca Hines (10:20):
Oh, the famous, famous last words, somebody who
loves math. So Honora my, myfinal question to you is just a
follow up of what you were justmentioning, and that idea of
this feedback. And I so loveyour explanation about how the
brain is a big part of this. Canyou give us an example of how a
(10:45):
teacher might in flight, youknow, arrange a learning setting
that gives them a chance to givethat immediate feedback? Because
I feel like that's for a lot ofteachers. There's such a gap
between even, you know, homeworkand other things, and by the
time somebody gives thefeedback, so many other thoughts
have been run through the mindthat that's feels long
(11:08):
forgotten. You know, they nolonger associate their
performance with the feedback.
So in a math class, how can thatlook on a practical level?
Honora Wall (11:16):
Yeah, that is a great question, Rebecca, and I
feel like you're completelycorrect, the more time that goes
by, the less the brain isinterested that was yesterday or
two days ago, and it has norelevance, so that later,
feedback is not going to createthe same kind of prediction
response that we really want.
And I do think that for teachersand 20 year classroom teacher, I
(11:41):
completely get the struggles ofmanaging the entire class. I
think we would get fartherfaster if we would just talk to
children, and we really don't,we really don't. If we could
just say to people, okay, we'regoing to go over the homework.
Maybe we could quit assigninghomework. We have no intention
of grading fully and let go ofthose completion grades. But
(12:03):
there's another soapbox I willlead to the side to say to
people, okay, who added herewhen they should have
subtracted, or just, you know,hands up. Yeah, that one is
common. Okay, this is how youknow you're going to have to
subtract in this thing, and thenyou are really addressing it
with the whole group, and notsending any one individual
student out for that exposure infront of their peers. Another
(12:27):
way you could do it in theclassroom is just take those few
kids who keep having problemswith a certain topic or
assessment and either in a smallgroup or individual setting,
analyze their work with them,and say, okay, I noticed right
here you wrote out this step.
(12:48):
But take a look at your I'll usefractions. Take a look at your
denominators. They're not thesame number. And as you say,
that circle the denominators atthe bottom. So you're really
coding the vocab, the placementin the fraction and the visual
of what the student is lookingat, so they really know what
you're talking about, and thenjust point that out to them what
(13:09):
they need to do differently. Butit doesn't have to be very long.
It doesn't have to be intensive.
It can be very casual, and themore we make it casual and
friendly, the more we'readdressing the social, emotional
piece, because the trauma that'sinvolved in low math performance
is real, valid and sustained.
Lisa Dieker (13:30):
And so my last question is going to talk about
that trauma being cyclical insome cases. So you know, mom or
dad comes home and has math todo, and you'll hear, I'm not a
math person. Or my favorite wasa true example where someone
said, Look, when I grew up sixtimes six was just 36 why it was
(13:53):
I don't know, and I don't care,and I don't know why my kid has
to write that. And so, so mathhas changed. Math, math anxiety,
we know is, I think 72% of thepopulation is assessed with some
level of math anxiety, if youlook at the research. So what do
you what do you do to helpfamilies understand, especially
kids who have a disability inmath, to get them to practice
(14:15):
and understand the importance ofdoing some skill work over the
summer, on the weekends, on thecar ride? How do you kind of
coach people to go in thatdirection in the work that you
do?
Honora Wall (14:27):
When I'm working with a student directly, I will
tell parents, you know, you willsave a lot of money if you don't
help. You will need me less ifyou quit helping, because then I
don't have to fix, you know, theextra issues that can come in
from some very well meaningparents who want to help, and I
(14:49):
do want parents to be involvedpersonally, especially when it
comes to summertime and thatidea of skill building. I want
everybody to take a step back. Iwant everybody to relax a little
bit, and I'd rather you just hadsome fun as a family. That's
going to go a lot farther thanany workbook you're going to do
or drilling any of those facts.
And you can put math into a lotof things, and it doesn't all
(15:12):
have to be the numeracy piece,especially because for
dyscalculia, steps andprocedures can be difficult. So
a lot of people with dyscalculiadon't like board games. They
can't really keep up with allthe rules they have to follow,
and then it's intimidating andit's a negative experience, and
then their parents are madbecause they couldn't play the
(15:32):
game very well, and we're notgetting where we want to get to
from there, but we can talkabout math and music, and it
doesn't have to be the really,did you know that math is
involved? Nobody has ever wantedto hear that from a parent ever.
Just listen to some differenttypes of music and talk about
the tempo being fast or slow,and then the student has that
(15:53):
prior knowledge. When it doescome up in a classroom
discussion of fractions, theirbrain will make the connection
on its own. Make some puzzlestogether, play some low key
games as a family, and make atactile make it something you
actually sit down together andplay Blackjack, play Go Fish,
(16:14):
play something that's veryseemingly basic, because we
don't have to build the entirecoliseum. We just need to build
a little bit of a foundation,and really that foundation
should have the strong,positive, emotional piece that's
going to get your kids throughlater math classes.
Lisa Dieker (16:37):
Great. I love it.
Well, thank you for suchwonderful, practical brain
focused list goes on and on,extraordinary information for
our listeners, and if you havequestions, please send us a
Tweet @Access Practical or posta question for us on our
Facebook page @Practical Access.
Thank you again Honora, somereally great advice for families
(16:57):
and teachers. Thanks.
Honora Wall (16:58):
Thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed
it.
Music.
Lisa Dieker (00:07):
Welcome to Practical Access. I'm Lisa
Dieker.
Rebecca Hines (00:09):
And I'm Rebecca Hines and Lisa, I'm so excited
about today's guest because thetopic is one that is so precise
and so under. Talked about, whodo we have?
Lisa Dieker (00:23):
Yeah, so we're excited to have with us today.
And welcome Dr. Honora Wall, whois a speaker, author, teacher
and trainer in a topic that wehave to all practice saying,
which is dyscalculia for thosewho and again, we hear it in
lots of different ways, but it'sreally map disabilities in
short. So welcome Dr. HonoraWall, and excited to have you
(00:45):
with us.
Honora Wall (00:46):
Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. I love
talking about this, so it's suchan important topic. Thanks for
bringing awareness.
Lisa Dieker (00:53):
Yeah, so I'm going to kick it off with the first
question. I happen to be aparent of a kid with a
disability and has Tourettes anddyslexia. This is one that we
didn't have in our bucket, butoftentimes the literacy piece
gets in the way of the mathpiece. And so help us understand
the difference in kids who havelanguage based problems versus
(01:14):
who have math problems, and howmay teachers think about that in
their teaching, especially inmath.
Honora Wall (01:21):
Yeah, it's such an interesting trajectory. So both
dyslexia and dyscalculia cameabout in the research in the
same time, about the 1930s butreading really took off as a
national interest where math didnot. So a lot of teachers feel
like this is a brand new thing.
We just made up, and now we'recalling it a math learning
disability, but it's not new.
(01:43):
It's just new to us. And I thinkthat's an important difference.
And you might know, you probablyhave already seen this with your
child, that anythingneurodivergent, dyslexia,
dyscalculia, dysgraphia,Tourettes, ADHD, autism
spectrum, there's a lot ofcrossover, and it's almost like
I see these individual neurodivergent pieces, like a water
(02:04):
color, and then they have placeswhere they blend. So that's a
really interesting thing to seein people who are neuro
divergent, which, for the youknow, quick definition is just a
different way of thinking,different brain wiring, not a
deficiency, just a difference.
And what you see with thedifference between math and
(02:25):
dyslexia, there's a couple ofkey ones. The one is the area in
the brain where they bothhappen. And I won't go too far
down the neurology rabbit hole,although I love talking about
the brain, but those happen indifferent parts of the brain,
and they express differently. Sothe reading piece that we're
very familiar with is studentsstruggling with letters,
(02:45):
struggling with reading fluency,and then later struggling to get
conceptual understanding fromprinted text. It doesn't create
the same mental images that itwould for a person who's not
dyslexic, what we see withdyscalculia is just a real
uncomfortable space for numbers.
(03:08):
What do they mean? What doquantities mean? Time, money and
place value never make anysense. And that fluency we're
looking for doing any kind ofmental math, which is a total
parlor trick. Please quitholding it up as the gold
standard, everyone. But the ideaof doing that mental math is
near impossible for a lot ofpeople, and very intimidating.
Rebecca Hines (03:33):
You know, I love the watercolor example in math.
I know that a lot of teachers,you mentioned how the two areas
grew together, and we reallyonly focused on the reading
side. In language arts, can youbreak down a little bit for us
(03:57):
to understand, if I'm a teacher,what would be some of the early
signs of dyscalculia?
Honora Wall (04:06):
Or dyscalculia, dyscalcia that people come up
with anything. Some of yourearly signs can happen as young
as first and second grade. Andof course, at that time, we're
still waiting for humandevelopment. Everyone progresses
at different times. So we don'treally start looking for
learning disabilities untilthird or fourth. But what you're
(04:26):
going to see is students who areintelligent, sometimes highly,
highly intelligent, and we thinkthey should be able to get this
stuff quickly. And we teach alesson on Monday, the student is
kind of with us on Tuesday, byWednesday, they're not sure what
we're talking about. And by theFriday test, they don't think
they've ever seen thisinformation before. And the
(04:48):
other key thing for dyscalculiais we will keep repeating
especially those basic facts,because your brain loses them
like water through a colander ifyou have dyscalculia, but we
drill those basic facts, andthey're just not sticking, even
if the student seems to get themon on day one, it's just gone by
(05:09):
day three. And that reallyimpacts their ability to finish
assessments the way we want themto and in the amount of time we
give them. But you can see it atvery young ages.
Rebecca Hines (05:20):
So, so in describing this, it sounds a lot
like how dyslexia might presentwith those early spelling tests.
Would you say that's a fairdescription?
Honora Wall (05:33):
Yes, yes. You will have a student who knows the
vocab, and they're working ontheir spelling all week, and
then they sit down to take thatspelling test, and you think,
wow, was was that phonetic?
Where did that come from? Andyou're surprised, because the
assessment does not match whatyou expect based on
capabilities. And the same thatsame thing will happen with
math.
Lisa Dieker (05:55):
Great, yeah, and I knew Honora one of the problems
in math is that, and with alearning disability is it's a
system of failure, so I have tofail in math long enough before
you diagnose me. And now I'mfrustrated. And is it, you know?
Now, is it attention? Is itbehavior? Is it math? And so I'm
curious, you know, for yourthoughts about, like, my
(06:19):
favorite in working in this areais that, you know, fractions,
every kid does poorly infractions, like, like, it's just
part of development. Yet, whatdoes that kid look so different?
And how might I lower theiranxiety, increase their success,
maybe before they getidentified, even though I smell
it in second grade or thirdgrade, and yet they haven't
(06:42):
failed long enough. What wouldbe some things you might suggest
I do to build that bridge to getthat kid past everything?
Because it's not just fractionsare going to fail at. They're
going to fail at everything.
Honora Wall (06:52):
Yeah, Lisa, I have so many tangents I want to go
off, but I'm going to try tothrow them out and click and get
back to answering the question.
The first is, maybe we'd bebetter at fractions if we quit
trying to squish algebra intofourth grade. But I'll let that
one go, and my other one isthat, yes, a lot of people do
struggle with fractions, somaybe we need to look at that
piece and give some extrasupport to all students. Let
(07:14):
them have a multiplication list,not the chart, the old fashioned
times tables in front of them,that way they can look up the
numbers you need them to look upfor the numeracy piece while
they're focusing on theconceptual part or the algorithm
part. There's nothing wrong withjust following the algorithm.
Steps and procedures are how youget it done. And for
neurodivergent students, if wecan help them get it done, then
(07:37):
they're much more interested inhaving a conceptual conversation
with us, but the reverse is nottrue from from my experience,
but let's just give them someextra support. You know, I've
been making banana bread forprobably 30 years or more, and
I'm still going to open up therecipe book and just make sure
(07:58):
I've got the right amount offlour and the right amount of
butter, I'm going to give myselfthat support because I want my
bread to taste good once I'vebaked it. So I feel like we
remove support on our timeline,not on the students timeline,
and that is an easy, easy fixfor any teacher. You don't have
to buy anything, you don't haveto change anything. You don't
(08:20):
have to replace your program.
Just give a little extrasupport. Let the student move
away from it as they arecomfortable.
Rebecca Hines (08:29):
And I love that.
I love your analogy, and alsothis focus on, you know when
things are appropriate. Andalong those lines, I know that
you have examined before thisidea, this idea of the
importance of real-timefeedback. So can you explain the
importance of that feedback andthe proximity of the feedback to
(08:50):
the actual event, so that ouraudience can understand how this
impacts kids?
Honora Wall (08:58):
Oh, yeah, that is such an interesting part about
brain research too. We knowthat, like our brain at all
times, all day, without us beingaware of it will make a
prediction, and then it wantsconfirmation. And if we predict
something and we are right, westrengthen those neurological
connections. And if we predictsomething and we're wrong, we
(09:19):
weaken them. If we get nofeedback right or wrong, then
what do we do with those neuronsthat just kind of float out
there, they're not reallycoupled with with dendrites,
that means we're not rememberingit and we're not recalling it
later. So instant feedback isreally helpful, and I think
that's another easy thingteachers can do. Is when you're
(09:40):
with the student at a desk andyou're letting them do the work,
see what's going on, and thenjust tell them, hey, you added
here. I actually want you tomultiply at that step. Let's do
another one. Good. Youmultiplied, perfect. And now you
can walk away from the desk, butyou told them exactly what they
did wrong and exactly how to fixit. Now you're strengthening
(10:01):
that connection. You're givingthem mastery. They can now
practice to increase mastery,and they know what you want from
them. I think a lot of times weact like math is this big
secret, and you either know itor you don't, you're in the
club, or you're not allowed inthe club at all, and honestly,
it's just math.
Rebecca Hines (10:20):
Oh, the famous, famous last words, somebody who
loves math. So Honora my, myfinal question to you is just a
follow up of what you were justmentioning, and that idea of
this feedback. And I so loveyour explanation about how the
brain is a big part of this. Canyou give us an example of how a
(10:45):
teacher might in flight, youknow, arrange a learning setting
that gives them a chance to givethat immediate feedback? Because
I feel like that's for a lot ofteachers. There's such a gap
between even, you know, homeworkand other things, and by the
time somebody gives thefeedback, so many other thoughts
have been run through the mindthat that's feels long
(11:08):
forgotten. You know, they nolonger associate their
performance with the feedback.
So in a math class, how can thatlook on a practical level?
Honora Wall (11:16):
Yeah, that is a great question, Rebecca, and I
feel like you're completelycorrect, the more time that goes
by, the less the brain isinterested that was yesterday or
two days ago, and it has norelevance, so that later,
feedback is not going to createthe same kind of prediction
response that we really want.
And I do think that for teachersand 20 year classroom teacher, I
(11:41):
completely get the struggles ofmanaging the entire class. I
think we would get fartherfaster if we would just talk to
children, and we really don't,we really don't. If we could
just say to people, okay, we'regoing to go over the homework.
Maybe we could quit assigninghomework. We have no intention
of grading fully and let go ofthose completion grades. But
(12:03):
there's another soapbox I willlead to the side to say to
people, okay, who added herewhen they should have
subtracted, or just, you know,hands up. Yeah, that one is
common. Okay, this is how youknow you're going to have to
subtract in this thing, and thenyou are really addressing it
with the whole group, and notsending any one individual
student out for that exposure infront of their peers. Another
(12:27):
way you could do it in theclassroom is just take those few
kids who keep having problemswith a certain topic or
assessment and either in a smallgroup or individual setting,
analyze their work with them,and say, okay, I noticed right
here you wrote out this step.
(12:48):
But take a look at your I'll usefractions. Take a look at your
denominators. They're not thesame number. And as you say,
that circle the denominators atthe bottom. So you're really
coding the vocab, the placementin the fraction and the visual
of what the student is lookingat, so they really know what
you're talking about, and thenjust point that out to them what
(13:09):
they need to do differently. Butit doesn't have to be very long.
It doesn't have to be intensive.
It can be very casual, and themore we make it casual and
friendly, the more we'readdressing the social, emotional
piece, because the trauma that'sinvolved in low math performance
is real, valid and sustained.
Lisa Dieker (13:30):
And so my last question is going to talk about
that trauma being cyclical insome cases. So you know, mom or
dad comes home and has math todo, and you'll hear, I'm not a
math person. Or my favorite wasa true example where someone
said, Look, when I grew up sixtimes six was just 36 why it was
(13:53):
I don't know, and I don't care,and I don't know why my kid has
to write that. And so, so mathhas changed. Math, math anxiety,
we know is, I think 72% of thepopulation is assessed with some
level of math anxiety, if youlook at the research. So what do
you what do you do to helpfamilies understand, especially
kids who have a disability inmath, to get them to practice
(14:15):
and understand the importance ofdoing some skill work over the
summer, on the weekends, on thecar ride? How do you kind of
coach people to go in thatdirection in the work that you
do?
Honora Wall (14:27):
When I'm working with a student directly, I will
tell parents, you know, you willsave a lot of money if you don't
help. You will need me less ifyou quit helping, because then I
don't have to fix, you know, theextra issues that can come in
from some very well meaningparents who want to help, and I
(14:49):
do want parents to be involvedpersonally, especially when it
comes to summertime and thatidea of skill building. I want
everybody to take a step back. Iwant everybody to relax a little
bit, and I'd rather you just hadsome fun as a family. That's
going to go a lot farther thanany workbook you're going to do
or drilling any of those facts.
And you can put math into a lotof things, and it doesn't all
(15:12):
have to be the numeracy piece,especially because for
dyscalculia, steps andprocedures can be difficult. So
a lot of people with dyscalculiadon't like board games. They
can't really keep up with allthe rules they have to follow,
and then it's intimidating andit's a negative experience, and
then their parents are madbecause they couldn't play the
(15:32):
game very well, and we're notgetting where we want to get to
from there, but we can talkabout math and music, and it
doesn't have to be the really,did you know that math is
involved? Nobody has ever wantedto hear that from a parent ever.
Just listen to some differenttypes of music and talk about
the tempo being fast or slow,and then the student has that
(15:53):
prior knowledge. When it doescome up in a classroom
discussion of fractions, theirbrain will make the connection
on its own. Make some puzzlestogether, play some low key
games as a family, and make atactile make it something you
actually sit down together andplay Blackjack, play Go Fish,
(16:14):
play something that's veryseemingly basic, because we
don't have to build the entirecoliseum. We just need to build
a little bit of a foundation,and really that foundation
should have the strong,positive, emotional piece that's
going to get your kids throughlater math classes.
Lisa Dieker (16:37):
Great. I love it.
Well, thank you for suchwonderful, practical brain
focused list goes on and on,extraordinary information for
our listeners, and if you havequestions, please send us a
Tweet @Access Practical or posta question for us on our
Facebook page @Practical Access.
Thank you again Honora, somereally great advice for families
(16:57):
and teachers. Thanks.
Honora Wall (16:58):
Thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed
it.
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