March 17, 2025 • 33 mins
In this episode of the Practical Spirituality, Gareth and Kim explore why communication often breaks down, even when people believe they are speaking clearly. They explain how everyone operates from their own unique “map of the world,” shaped by personal experiences, backgrounds, and cultural influences. As a result, two people raised in the same household can still develop entirely different communication styles.
They discuss how most people were never taught the art of true communication. They highlight the importance of self-awareness in conversation, noting that unresolved internal issues can surface when individuals use dialogue to avoid self-reflection. The episode challenges the tendency to focus on who is “right” or “wrong,” arguing that such binary thinking destroys the curiosity and vulnerability necessary for genuine connection.
The hosts offer practical strategies for improving communication, including maintaining genuine curiosity, being fully present, asking clarifying questions, and recognizing when emotional reactions signal the need to pause. They also acknowledge that not everyone is ready for deeper connection and emphasize the value of seeking professional support, such as therapy or coaching, when needed.
Become a Community Member at https://community.garethmichael.com/ to join our community and get early access to new episodes, answers to your personal questions and so much more.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Welcome back to the Practical Spirituality Podcast.
We are so excited to have youon this journey with us, where
we explore all elements of mind,body, emotions and soul through
the lens of everyday life.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Hello Kim.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Hello Gareth.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
How are you doing this morning?
Speaker 1 (00:33):
I am well.
I am recovering from theexcitement of the last week.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Just another week in the life.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Just another week in the life, that's it.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Well, I think I have another interesting conversation
for us to have this morning.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Okay, do tell.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
This episode is going to be based off communication
breakdown.
Okay, I think at the base ofthis conversation is going to be
how a lot of us probably thinkwe're better communicators than
what we actually are is going tobe how a lot of us probably
think we're better communicatorsthan what we actually are.
And when other people don'treally understand what we're
saying, that's when it brings upa lot of emotion or a lot of
jumping to conclusions.
People just get very triggeredand the reality is is that, if
(01:15):
you look at it, from a veryyoung age, we've never been
taught the art of communicatinghow we perceive the world and
how others perceive the worldalso, and what we're saying and
how, most of the time, mostpeople are not on the same page
at all.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
No, as you know that, I refer to that as the
different maps of the world, andpeople are usually not on the
same page, because we havedifferent backgrounds, we have
different cultures, we havedifferent meanings, that we've
given different words, and sowhat we think we're saying could
mean something totallydifferent to someone else.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
And it's always someone else's fault.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
So when you time that out for 8 billion people, you
can say that's a global problem.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Yes, I can it definitely.
The frustration comes inbecause you think you're being
very clear, yet you feel likeyou're not being heard or
understood and you don'tunderstand why that's not
happening.
So you're just assuming whichso many of us do that the other
person either doesn't care orcan't understand you, and that's
(02:24):
not always the case.
It's just.
There's so many differentvariables when it comes to
communication.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
I think this is an extension of last week's episode
of feeling unseen, unheard,invisible, and why it's
important for all of us tounderstand what does it mean to
be a good communicator but notonly to other people, but with
ourselves internally as well ofwhat's going on within us and
where the other person is beingtriggered in the conversation,
how we can use that informationto close that gap when
(02:54):
communicating with one another.
So that's why I thought it'd bevery interesting conversation
for us to have, because I thinkwe've all been in situations,
and all probably will be insituations, where there is a
communication breakdown and howbeing triggered or jumping to
the attack is most definitelynot the answer in moving forward
.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Definitely not the answer in moving forward.
Well, I just think, you know,depending on each person's past
and what's happened when they'vetried to communicate before
also plays into that but I think, you know, what is the most
harmful is the story we tellourselves when we feel like
we're not being heard or we feellike we're not being understood
(03:33):
, because then that adds todifferent proof that we might
already have about communicating, regardless of what that is,
you know, and it can be veryharmful to your relationships,
regardless of what thatrelationship is, whether that's
boss and employee relationshipor friend-friend or, you know, a
(03:53):
romantic relationship, evensibling relationships.
You know, people think becausewe've grown up in the same house
, we will have the same map ofthe world.
But you know, I love thatstatement where it says every
single child has a differentmother.
And they do, and so, it's true,all of our perceptions become
different.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
So how our mind codes the world and what we're trying
to communicate to the world iscompletely different, even if we
are siblings yeah, I thinkthat's what's interesting even
when we all come from the samefamily, how the communication
styles and the way in which wedo it is different for every
single person.
So there is a lot ofassumptions that can be made
that when we are communicatingabout a certain event or
(04:36):
experience or person, thatpeople around us, even that from
the same family, understandwhat we're talking about, the
thoughts or feelings that comealong with it, and that couldn't
be further from the truth.
But I think sometimes, evenwhen we're trying to express
what's going on within us orwhat happened that day, we're so
in the flow and often thinkingabout ourselves that we don't
(04:57):
realize that we're not thinkingabout.
The other person maybe doesn'thave the complete context of
what we're talking about, evenwhen they are listening never
mind if they're not, that's adifferent part of it but even if
they are listening and theywant to ask questions about it.
Sometimes we've all experiencedhow you can get a bit sharp
with the person, or for asking aquestion, or should.
You do know that or I've toldyou that, but often we haven't
(05:19):
given the context, weoverestimate our communication
skills.
More often than not that canlead to more conflict in those
moments and you could argueunnecessary conflict, but we'll
come into that later of howsometimes it is necessary as
part of our growth.
I'll argue and I apologize forthat argument later.
(05:42):
But when you haven't beentaught or shown to be aware of
where we're lacking in ourcommunication skills, I think
that's inevitably going to leadto more interesting conflict in
our day-to-day lives.
Because how can it not?
Because we've never been taughtto explore how that
self-assessment when it comes toour communication skills?
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Because we might be speaking the same language.
We all think that the wordsthat we're using have the same
meaning, but they don'tnecessarily, and we've never
been taught how to pay attentionto each other's body language,
which will tell you more aboutwhat somebody's actually trying
to say than anything else and90% of the time that's because
(06:25):
we're so caught up in our ownstuff that we're not paying
attention to the other person'sbody language.
We're only hearing the words,and so we're applying our
meaning to the words somebodyelse is saying.
We're not paying attention towhat their body language is
saying, and so, therefore, wehave that complete
miscommunication that happensand, depending on you know what
(06:47):
it is, as Gareth would say, ourcontract has in line for us
meaning.
What are some of those veryfirst ways that we learn to
communicate?
You know, because we learn at avery young age from the people
who are raising us how tocommunicate, and nobody has the
same parents, so we're going toget different styles of
(07:10):
communication all the time Withall of that background.
Of course it causes problems inthe relationship.
Of course we think we're beingtransparent.
You know, I can tell you astory of a client that I had the
very first session I was doingwith this client.
Client had complex.
First session I was doing withthis client.
The client had complex trauma.
I was aware of the clienthaving complex trauma.
I was doing an intake halfwaythrough the interview with
(07:32):
somebody and then.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Yet we are surprised when our mind does wander or
when we're triggered in otherways.
So you can see howcommunication suddenly covers
every area of our lives.
It can pull us in a milliondifferent directions, but how
efficient or meaningful is itever?
And I think that's the trickything to begin to explore in any
(07:55):
person.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
I think what you're alluding to here is it comes
back to how we communicate withourselves, and a lot of people
don't even know how tounderstand that communication.
Now, for me, as a matter ofsurvival, that is one of the
things I had to start doing at ayoung age and early age.
I say early age, I'm talkingmid-20s, 30s, I'm not talking
(08:20):
primary school, because too muchis going on through that time
in your life.
But when I started becoming ayoung adult and my life wasn't
viable the way I was living it,it became very important for me
to.
I already had the assumptionthat if it goes wrong, it must
be my fault, and so, therefore,I wanted to examine what was it
(08:40):
I was doing that wasn'teffective in what I was trying
to do, especially when it cameto communicating.
Because I can tell you, gareth,part of my life contract is
people not understanding meHands down.
I get that because it's beenone of the things I've looked at
for so long.
Part of that comes to because Ihad to learn to be brutally
(09:03):
honest with myself, sometimestoo brutally honest with myself
and over negative towards myself, but I really wanted to get it.
I really wanted to understandand what my experience has been
very few people do actuallyquestion their type of
communication.
What did they actually mean?
(09:24):
What were they actually tryingto say?
I don't think any of us havebeen taught how to do that.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
The communication breakdown that naturally comes
around in life is a part of ourcontract and our experiences.
That eventually turns us backto self in order to understand,
as you were saying there, whatam I doing?
What's my part in this?
I have to look into this thatwe go.
(09:55):
There's a reason why it's nottaught to any of us, so you and
I, of course, can pick a hold inmost things and say this should
be taught in schools and thisshould be taught and everyone
should know about this.
But then you also have toquestion there's a reason why a
lot of us are not allowed toknow these things because of the
experiences and the developmentthat it has throughout our
lives.
And then that is part of thejourney of going full circle and
doing the journey ofunderstanding self, because if
we had all this information fromthe day we were born, it'd be a
(10:17):
very boring life, meaning therewouldn't be much to explore or
to go through and I'm not sayingit's a picnic at any stage.
You know life's tricky for mostpeople, if not everyone in
their own ways, but you can findreasoning to why it does need
to be this way.
But then it is that journeyback into self, and it does
(10:39):
often require a lot of falloutwith individuals or the world
before you actually ever realizethat that's where you need to
go, because it's not the firstprotocol, it is not taught to
you, and sometimes it does bringyou to that space in life where
you've nowhere else to go butinwards, before you go outwards
again.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
It's so frustrating too, because we always want to
make it about the other personand it's really not.
If we're not happy withwhatever the communication was,
it's really about what's goingon inside of us, you know,
regardless of what that lookslike, and if the other person
isn't happy with us, it's notalways about us, it's about
(11:18):
what's going on for them.
But we don't get to know thatand I can tell you as someone
who's done a lot ofself-reflection and paid a lot
of attention to this has itgotten easier in the
communication styles?
Professionally, yes.
Personally, I don't thinkthat's.
Oh, so we're being honest here Ican be honest about that
(11:44):
because obviously, like you said, we all have stuff to continue
to learn.
I mean, it gets annoyingsometimes, I'm not gonna lie
about that.
It gets annoying because youthink, okay, I'm finally getting
a handle on this, and then bam,something else rears its ugly
head and you're like, okay, herewe go again.
You know just what is it.
(12:05):
It gets easier as you'relearning to do it, but in the
beginning it's completelybaffling, and even for me and
some of my personalrelationships, when I've tried
to speak to other people and Ican see what they're hearing is
not what I'm trying to say.
So I want you to hear that Ican see what they're hearing is
(12:27):
not what I'm trying to say, andthat is confusing in itself when
you're trying to very sincerelyhave this conversation and it's
just not going in.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
But I think this is why it is such a confusing topic
, because people are trying toget their point across.
As you said earlier in theepisode, people are trying to be
liked.
People are also trying todistract, people are trying to
deflect.
So we've learned a lot of waysin which we can utilize
communication, but it's neverreally for ourselves anymore,
(12:58):
and so, therefore, when youstart layering in all the
different ways in which you canthink about communication, you
can see how that can beoverwhelming, especially at the
start of this journey, becausewe're so used to it really just
filling very specific day-to-dayneeds in our day-to-day
societies and cultures.
But when you start looking atit for yourself as an individual
, I think that can beoverwhelming to start wrapping
(13:20):
your head around.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
Well, especially if you're one of these people that
have learned that outward focusand you're trying to mind read,
so you're having, say, I'mhaving a conversation with you
and I'm watching you and I'mthinking what is he thinking?
Oh, now I.
Oh, why did I say that?
Because he raised his eyebrowand now, you know, he hates me,
and blah, blah, blah, blah whenit comes to this, you know.
(13:44):
So, if people have that mindreading and that's usually a lot
of people that suffer fromanxiety it's so hard for them to
pay attention to what's goingon in them and what they're
trying to communicate, becausethey're so busy trying to figure
out what's going on in theother person's head.
When it's impossible to do that, you know, you can only
(14:04):
understand how it's received ifthe feedback comes back in a way
that you expected it to, and ifit didn't, it's not about
necessarily you got it wrong,it's about where has the
miscommunication happened?
Speaker 2 (14:21):
And I think it's very hard at times to be able to
develop that skill, especiallyif you're around people who are
not that interested indeveloping that skill with you.
We're in a world where someonehas to be right and someone has
to be wrong.
Yeah, so boring.
Did you notice that?
Well, I have in the past, but Ihas to be wrong.
Yeah, so boring.
Did you notice that?
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Well, I have in the past, but I've refused to accept
it.
I just hate the fact thateverybody does that right, wrong
thing.
I hate it.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
But it's automated.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
I know it is.
I know it is.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
But if that's not the killer of all communication, I
don't know what is.
It's the counter tocommunication.
Let's take a step back fromthis week's episode and share
with everyone what we've been upto behind the scenes.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
We're really excited to be able to finally offer the
Gareth Michael community to eachof you.
The community offers a range ofbenefits, including access to
our live events, weekly podcastepisodes, articles,
self-checking questions, as wellas a community of individuals
you can connect with andinteract with along the way.
It's designed to offer yousupport, guidance and a safe
(15:27):
space on a day-to-day basis.
We'd love to have you join ourglobal community of like-minded
individuals.
That website address, again, iswwwgarethmichaelcom.
Now let's get back to thatepisode, shall we?
Speaker 2 (15:45):
So, in saying that, when there is such a focus of
someone having to be right andsomeone having to be wrong, and
someone needs to be leading theconversation or has to be the
dominant one or you have toagree with what I'm saying how
can you ever expect forcommunication to grow or expand,
or for it to be a safe orvulnerable environment to
actually say what's on your mindor even eventually to
(16:07):
communicate what's actuallygoing on within, within you on a
deeper level?
Let that be a mind, body,emotions, past, present or
future.
So you can see how, when,especially in dynamics of a lot
of friendships, relationships,family members, when the focus
is so often on being right,wrong, liked, loved, you know,
(16:28):
based off fear or trauma fromthe past, if there's not much
wiggle room there to actually beable to open up and to maybe
communicate in the way you wouldlike, even if you know that's
an option, whereas most peopledon't even know that there's
other ways to communicate withothers or internally with
themselves I think it's a veryconfronting situation when
(16:50):
that's the case, because we allwant to communicate openly, but
how many people actually haveever felt completely safe in
doing that?
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Not very many people, because of that very little
wiggle room that you just spokeabout.
There's just not a lot ofwiggle room and I think it's
kind of frustrating on one level, but it is also.
There's a lot of growth in thefact when you realize there's
not a lot of room but youcontinue to pursue being able to
(17:21):
be as open and honest as youcan be in your communications,
because somebody has to start,has to start somewhere.
But more often than not youhave to get past that stage of
all the reactivity, because whenwe're trying to communicate
honestly and if it's not beingreceived in the way that we
thought it would be, there'susually a lot of emotional
(17:43):
reactivity that gets lit up andthen it makes you want to shut
down even more yeah yeah, and sohow does one get past that?
Speaker 2 (17:52):
it's a real question what I think the start of it is
being able to realize theindividuals in your life who
want the communication to remainsurface level, versus the
people in your life who actuallymight be interested in for it
to go a little bit deeper.
Because we have the people inour lives who want to keep
ticking the boxes, do not wantto go into any of this reality
(18:13):
of what's going on in eachother's lives.
Talk about the kids constantly.
Talk about work, talk about theneighbors, talk about anything
just about themselves, andthat's okay.
Talk about the weather, but andI know that's there's basic
skills that most people need tohave in order to get through
day-to-day life.
In.
However, that gets very thinafter a period of time,
especially when stuff inside isstarting to bubble up, when the
(18:34):
seams in life start to split indifferent ways.
So I think that's wherestarting to actually weigh up
and when it's time to startopening up and communicate.
I always believe the rightpeople do appear in front of us
or become more present in ourlives in their own ways.
So, in understanding andnavigating the individuals who
actually seem open to hearingyou and are actually asking more
(18:56):
questions about how are youactually doing at times and
giving you those opportunities,understanding who they are,
versus the people who just wantto continue ticking those
surface level boxes.
Is there anything wrong withthose individuals in our lives?
Absolutely not.
But I think it's unfair on bothindividuals to expect more from
the relationship when it'sactually not capable of
(19:16):
delivering more than what it is.
So in understanding that,because if you start trying to
open up, so to speak, with theindividuals who are not ready to
do that, as you were sayingearlier, it can actually force
us more inwards and it can knockour confidence.
We don't want to be vulnerableanymore and those windows of
actually having the courage todo that are often quite small as
(19:38):
we go throughout life.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Well, the real trick is that discernment, you know,
discerning who you can open upmore with or who you are having
those social levels and you knowwhether it's my ADHD, whether
it's the dyslexia, whether it'sthe complex trauma, whether it's
all of the above.
I never got that early on, andso I remember in my 20s, people
(20:01):
used to always tell me Iovershared.
Well, I didn't even understandwhat that meant.
I was just trying to be openand honest and yeah, so it can
be very confusing as you'regoing down this path, but the
thing is is, like you said,instead of giving into that need
to isolate or back off or notbe so vulnerable, it is about
(20:24):
learning that discernment of whois ready to meet you in that
place, of learning tocommunicate and who isn't.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Yeah, yeah, and I think it's an even understanding
.
See, I don't necessarily agreewith, say, when people cut
people out of their lives,especially if you're in an, if
you're in an area in your lifeor time in your life where you
want to start opening up andsomeone else isn't ready to join
you in that yet I like thatsaying I often use with people
is that it doesn't mean it's notnever, it's just not now, you
(20:51):
know, because I think it's tooeasy to cut people out when the
reality is it may not be timefor them, but it's time for you
now.
And there are other people.
It's most likely in our livesthat we can prioritize for what
our needs are in this moment intime.
So everyone's on their own path, as I say, to cut them out when
(21:15):
there are other people whooften appear when the time is
right for us to have theopportunity to open up and be
vulnerable if it presents itselfin the right moments.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Sometimes we don't have that choice, as you've said
many times before, because ofthe emotional reaction that
happens inside of us and we'reunaware of why that emotional
reaction is happening.
You know, I just recently cameacross some learnings that I
found very interesting and itwas about our emotional
(21:46):
embodiment of things prior toour language developing.
And so if we're in anenvironment where we're always
being shut down as very youngchildren and we weren't allowed
to talk when we first make thosesteps to try and get out there
and talk, if it's not met in away that we had hoped, the
(22:07):
physical embodiment part of us,it's a natural shutdown or cut
off or whatever, and it takes.
I think sometimes it takespeople a little while going
through that before theyunderstand.
Wait, I didn't actually want tocut off or whatever, and it
takes.
I think sometimes it takespeople a little while going
through that before theyunderstand wait, I didn't
actually want to cut off or shutoff but something in my body is
forcing that to happen, and I'mnot saying that as an excuse at
(22:28):
all because, it's a real thingthat happens to people, but
again, another area that we'renot taught that you know,
sensation was, as we've oftentalked about in the past, our
very first language, and so thatsensation will still show up.
Even though we're using a lotof verbiage, the sensation still
shows up in the body.
(22:49):
And then it's about gettingcongruent with ourselves and the
sensations in our body to beable to move forward.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
But what I love about that is that that's the
internal communication beingworked on of actually what's
going on with inside any of usand, as you mentioned in the
start of this episode andprevious episodes, that's our
own studying, our own individualmaps of the world and what's
going on.
So it's not only just abouthaving space for what's going on
in other people's lives, but ifwe are finding ourselves
(23:19):
shutting ourselves down or it'snot as easy to find those people
, or struggling to open up, evenif the intention is there or
the logic is there.
But that's another way in whichwe have to explore the
communication that's going onwithin us internally, as well as
why it's maybe harder thanexpected externally, externally.
So our body, our mind, body,emotions and soul are always
(23:40):
sending those signals in thosedifferent ways in which each of
those departments, as I callthem, is communicating with us
in different ways, or why we'restruggling to communicate in
those different ways.
But that is where the growth isgreat just you know I have time
.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Excuse my friend, that's my honest reaction.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
Great, but I mean that's a lifetime.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
All the blood just drained from kim's face it's
like, oh okay, who knewcommunication could be so
complicated?
Speaker 2 (24:10):
us entering this conversation.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Oh true, very true, yes, so that is a lot for
somebody to navigate.
So where would you suggest?
Speaker 2 (24:23):
It's a lot for us to navigate.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
It is a lot for us to navigate, and I think that's
important to say too, gareth,because I love communication and
I am the first person to admitthat I struggle with
communication a lot.
I don't have a problem sayingthat Get me in a session where
I'm one-on-one with someone Ican communicate very effectively
(24:49):
, let my emotions or my bodycome into it, and there's a
whole different story thathappens.
And there's a whole differentstory that happens, and I've
given up seeking that perfectionand I've started just looking
for more progress andunderstanding of myself and why
that's happening, instead ofthinking I might as well just
(25:11):
kick the bucket because I can'tdo it, because that was the
response for a very long time.
So it's about you know,learning how to come back to
ourselves and really have afeedback loop for ourself.
As to what happened for me inthat situation, I can share an
example of this very thing thatjust happened to me.
(25:35):
Recently, I was having aconversation with a very dear
friend of mine and that personsaid something to me about what
I had said which I was like waita minute, are you on Mars and
I'm on Venus?
Because that was not anywhereclose to what I was trying to
say, and, in hindsight, as I satback and reflected, I went, I
(25:57):
went.
Okay, I can see where thisperson has jumped to this
conclusion, but that is not whatI was trying to say, and so how
do I help them get beyond thesurface stuff and see what I was
trying to say underneath that?
Because it wasn't about thepeople in the conversation, it
was about what was happening forme in being misunderstood.
(26:21):
Does that make sense, and so.
But that took a lot ofself-reflection to sit back and
go.
Where did that go so wrong whenit felt like it was going to be
such a simple conversation?
So when I went back andexplained it and left the
surface stuff completely out andspoke from that, I feel place.
(26:44):
I did see my friend's eyesglaze over, and so that's when I
realized okay, so they're notready to hear that, they can't
hear that from me I.
I, however, know what I wastrying to say, which is more
important than anything, becauseI hadn't known that before.
I wasn't aware of what I hadbeen trying to say before.
(27:05):
I was just saying it, hoping itwould be understood.
But when I had that time tostop, go back, reflect and go.
Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait.
No, that's not it.
It was this underneath.
Now that I know that, do I havea huge need to have someone
else understand it?
No, because I understand it.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Yep, and I think even before we started this
conversation for this episode.
I laugh sometimes when we comeon to record because we have an
idea of what we're going to talkabout.
It's not often the plan, andwhen you have a topic like this
of a communication, it's onlywhen you and I get into it that
we realize how much we're goingto bounce around.
We're like, oh wow, I'm goingto cover a lot of random things
(27:46):
and jump around quite a bit.
But I think that can be a goodthing because it shows the
complexity or how layered it isin all of our lives and more
often than not we've never hadthe ability or the chance to
take a step back and actuallysee how important communication
is or, in this example, howcommunication is so important,
but how many layers and how deepit runs in all of us in so many
(28:10):
different ways, both internallyand externally.
So I do think it's important wetalk about some tools and
techniques that maybe any of uscan apply or work on or become
more aware of to have betterconversations and better
communication with ourselves andthe people around us.
So what comes to mind for you?
Speaker 1 (28:27):
I think the very first thing that comes to mind
when I enter a conversation withsomeone is trying to keep at
the forefront of my mind to becurious.
I want to be curious about whatthis person is trying to
express to me, because the moreI'm curious about it, the more
present I'm going to be, andthat's naturally going to tick
(28:48):
that box of really wanting tolisten, to understand, instead
of listen to respond, which isone of those old sayings, but
it's an important saying.
So that would be the firstthing that I would say.
And then it's about checking in.
This is what I think you said.
Is that what you meant by that?
(29:09):
Do you know what I mean?
When you check in with somebodyand you go okay, this is what I
think I heard, am I right?
Then that gives that person theopportunity to go oh no, that's
not what I was trying to say,and then that feedback loop
allows you guys to have a deeperunderstanding.
That's what I would say.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
A lot of the topics that we talk about.
This is another skill set thatall of us have to invest in our
work on in some ways, and inorder to do that, we need to
have a safe environment that youknow I know I mentioned earlier
about the people in our livesmight present themselves in
order to allow us to startopening up or being vulnerable,
but sometimes that is in theform of a qualified therapist or
a qualified coach or actuallysomeone who we want to engage
(29:51):
with.
That we know exactly is goingto be a safe environment for us
to explore conversations oremotions or experiences that
we've never had the opportunityto but we know we can, in a safe
environment, to start buildingthose skill sets at its core or
just feeling comfortable withopening up in that way,
mind-body emotions and, I think,outside of that and just
day-to-day conversations withfamily and friends.
(30:13):
I often tell myself that say,if I'm present in a conversation
, as you were saying, that Ihave to remind myself that there
isn't a right and a wrong there.
Say, if I'm present in aconversation, as you were saying
, that I have to remind myselfthat there isn't a right and a
wrong.
There's what I'm saying.
There's saying it's evenreminding myself I'm not ending
this conversation to have to beliked or to be loved or to be.
That all starts with me.
So I just think as you start toexplore yourself and learn
(30:34):
those skill sets, you do havethose little reminders that you
have to kind of tell yourselfbefore you enter sometimes these
conversations.
To be present, as you weresaying earlier, to take in every
single word, to be curious, toactually find ways to be excited
about the conversations, tokeep ourselves present.
But they're all skills wehaven't been taught.
Yeah, we've often utilizedother people to avoid ourselves,
(30:58):
and that's huge, that a lot ofus don't realize what we do.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
And I think, one of the other key things if you're
learning to do this and you findyourself having that emotional
reactivity, that's a great timeto take a pause in the
conversation, because what mostpeople don't understand is the
whole reason that people end upyelling at each other is because
they don't feel heard orunderstood, and so they get
louder and louder becausethey're wanting to be heard or
(31:26):
understood.
So if there's an emotionalreaction, it's a good time to
take a little bit of a time out,just breathe, come back what
happened inside of me, let themwork out what's happening inside
of them, reminding yourself,like you just said, there
doesn't have to be a right orwrong here.
This is someone expressingwhat's going on for them and
(31:46):
then monitoring what your ownexpectations of the conversation
are.
Are you having the conversationto be liked?
Are you having the conversationto be right?
Are you having the conversationbecause you want to understand
or because you want to be liked?
Are you having the conversationto be right?
Are you having the conversationbecause you want to understand
or because you want to beunderstood?
Speaker 2 (32:02):
I'd like to set a challenge for our listeners that
for the next person thatthey're speaking with, for them
to be self-aware of the ways inwhich they're being present.
Not being present Does theirmind wander, as we've been
talking about.
Are we focusing on being liked,being right, being wrong Are?
Are we triggered I just think,even in challenging yourself to
do it once this week to be hyperfocused in on what's going on
(32:25):
within you as you're engagingwith another person.
You might be surprised in whatit brings up I think that'll be
a great challenge.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
Thanks so much for listening.
If you enjoyed this episode,then you might want to check out
our online community.
We built it to offer you thecomfort of having a supportive
community by your side, nomatter where life takes you
Connect with like-mindedindividuals through our app.
Navigate each step of thejourney together with us by
(32:56):
joining our Gareth Michaelcommunity.
Here are a few of the thingsyou're going to get.
You'll get exclusive real-timeaccess to live recording and
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Access to exclusive content notavailable anywhere else.
(33:20):
To learn more about ourcommunity, please go to
wwwgarethmichaelcom.
Thanks again, and I hope youguys are having a lovely week.
Welcome back to the Practical Spirituality Podcast.
We are so excited to have youon this journey with us, where
we explore all elements of mind,body, emotions and soul through
the lens of everyday life.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Hello Kim.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Hello Gareth.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
How are you doing this morning?
Speaker 1 (00:33):
I am well.
I am recovering from theexcitement of the last week.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Just another week in the life.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Just another week in the life, that's it.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Well, I think I have another interesting conversation
for us to have this morning.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Okay, do tell.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
This episode is going to be based off communication
breakdown.
Okay, I think at the base ofthis conversation is going to be
how a lot of us probably thinkwe're better communicators than
what we actually are is going tobe how a lot of us probably
think we're better communicatorsthan what we actually are.
And when other people don'treally understand what we're
saying, that's when it brings upa lot of emotion or a lot of
jumping to conclusions.
People just get very triggeredand the reality is is that, if
(01:15):
you look at it, from a veryyoung age, we've never been
taught the art of communicatinghow we perceive the world and
how others perceive the worldalso, and what we're saying and
how, most of the time, mostpeople are not on the same page
at all.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
No, as you know that, I refer to that as the
different maps of the world, andpeople are usually not on the
same page, because we havedifferent backgrounds, we have
different cultures, we havedifferent meanings, that we've
given different words, and sowhat we think we're saying could
mean something totallydifferent to someone else.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
And it's always someone else's fault.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
So when you time that out for 8 billion people, you
can say that's a global problem.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Yes, I can it definitely.
The frustration comes inbecause you think you're being
very clear, yet you feel likeyou're not being heard or
understood and you don'tunderstand why that's not
happening.
So you're just assuming whichso many of us do that the other
person either doesn't care orcan't understand you, and that's
(02:24):
not always the case.
It's just.
There's so many differentvariables when it comes to
communication.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
I think this is an extension of last week's episode
of feeling unseen, unheard,invisible, and why it's
important for all of us tounderstand what does it mean to
be a good communicator but notonly to other people, but with
ourselves internally as well ofwhat's going on within us and
where the other person is beingtriggered in the conversation,
how we can use that informationto close that gap when
(02:54):
communicating with one another.
So that's why I thought it'd bevery interesting conversation
for us to have, because I thinkwe've all been in situations,
and all probably will be insituations, where there is a
communication breakdown and howbeing triggered or jumping to
the attack is most definitelynot the answer in moving forward
.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Definitely not the answer in moving forward.
Well, I just think, you know,depending on each person's past
and what's happened when they'vetried to communicate before
also plays into that but I think, you know, what is the most
harmful is the story we tellourselves when we feel like
we're not being heard or we feellike we're not being understood
(03:33):
, because then that adds todifferent proof that we might
already have about communicating, regardless of what that is,
you know, and it can be veryharmful to your relationships,
regardless of what thatrelationship is, whether that's
boss and employee relationshipor friend-friend or, you know, a
(03:53):
romantic relationship, evensibling relationships.
You know, people think becausewe've grown up in the same house
, we will have the same map ofthe world.
But you know, I love thatstatement where it says every
single child has a differentmother.
And they do, and so, it's true,all of our perceptions become
different.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
So how our mind codes the world and what we're trying
to communicate to the world iscompletely different, even if we
are siblings yeah, I thinkthat's what's interesting even
when we all come from the samefamily, how the communication
styles and the way in which wedo it is different for every
single person.
So there is a lot ofassumptions that can be made
that when we are communicatingabout a certain event or
(04:36):
experience or person, thatpeople around us, even that from
the same family, understandwhat we're talking about, the
thoughts or feelings that comealong with it, and that couldn't
be further from the truth.
But I think sometimes, evenwhen we're trying to express
what's going on within us orwhat happened that day, we're so
in the flow and often thinkingabout ourselves that we don't
(04:57):
realize that we're not thinkingabout.
The other person maybe doesn'thave the complete context of
what we're talking about, evenwhen they are listening never
mind if they're not, that's adifferent part of it but even if
they are listening and theywant to ask questions about it.
Sometimes we've all experiencedhow you can get a bit sharp
with the person, or for asking aquestion, or should.
You do know that or I've toldyou that, but often we haven't
(05:19):
given the context, weoverestimate our communication
skills.
More often than not that canlead to more conflict in those
moments and you could argueunnecessary conflict, but we'll
come into that later of howsometimes it is necessary as
part of our growth.
I'll argue and I apologize forthat argument later.
(05:42):
But when you haven't beentaught or shown to be aware of
where we're lacking in ourcommunication skills, I think
that's inevitably going to leadto more interesting conflict in
our day-to-day lives.
Because how can it not?
Because we've never been taughtto explore how that
self-assessment when it comes toour communication skills?
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Because we might be speaking the same language.
We all think that the wordsthat we're using have the same
meaning, but they don'tnecessarily, and we've never
been taught how to pay attentionto each other's body language,
which will tell you more aboutwhat somebody's actually trying
to say than anything else and90% of the time that's because
(06:25):
we're so caught up in our ownstuff that we're not paying
attention to the other person'sbody language.
We're only hearing the words,and so we're applying our
meaning to the words somebodyelse is saying.
We're not paying attention towhat their body language is
saying, and so, therefore, wehave that complete
miscommunication that happensand, depending on you know what
(06:47):
it is, as Gareth would say, ourcontract has in line for us
meaning.
What are some of those veryfirst ways that we learn to
communicate?
You know, because we learn at avery young age from the people
who are raising us how tocommunicate, and nobody has the
same parents, so we're going toget different styles of
(07:10):
communication all the time Withall of that background.
Of course it causes problems inthe relationship.
Of course we think we're beingtransparent.
You know, I can tell you astory of a client that I had the
very first session I was doingwith this client.
Client had complex.
First session I was doing withthis client.
The client had complex trauma.
I was aware of the clienthaving complex trauma.
I was doing an intake halfwaythrough the interview with
(07:32):
somebody and then.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Yet we are surprised when our mind does wander or
when we're triggered in otherways.
So you can see howcommunication suddenly covers
every area of our lives.
It can pull us in a milliondifferent directions, but how
efficient or meaningful is itever?
And I think that's the trickything to begin to explore in any
(07:55):
person.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
I think what you're alluding to here is it comes
back to how we communicate withourselves, and a lot of people
don't even know how tounderstand that communication.
Now, for me, as a matter ofsurvival, that is one of the
things I had to start doing at ayoung age and early age.
I say early age, I'm talkingmid-20s, 30s, I'm not talking
(08:20):
primary school, because too muchis going on through that time
in your life.
But when I started becoming ayoung adult and my life wasn't
viable the way I was living it,it became very important for me
to.
I already had the assumptionthat if it goes wrong, it must
be my fault, and so, therefore,I wanted to examine what was it
(08:40):
I was doing that wasn'teffective in what I was trying
to do, especially when it cameto communicating.
Because I can tell you, gareth,part of my life contract is
people not understanding meHands down.
I get that because it's beenone of the things I've looked at
for so long.
Part of that comes to because Ihad to learn to be brutally
(09:03):
honest with myself, sometimestoo brutally honest with myself
and over negative towards myself, but I really wanted to get it.
I really wanted to understandand what my experience has been
very few people do actuallyquestion their type of
communication.
What did they actually mean?
(09:24):
What were they actually tryingto say?
I don't think any of us havebeen taught how to do that.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
The communication breakdown that naturally comes
around in life is a part of ourcontract and our experiences.
That eventually turns us backto self in order to understand,
as you were saying there, whatam I doing?
What's my part in this?
I have to look into this thatwe go.
(09:55):
There's a reason why it's nottaught to any of us, so you and
I, of course, can pick a hold inmost things and say this should
be taught in schools and thisshould be taught and everyone
should know about this.
But then you also have toquestion there's a reason why a
lot of us are not allowed toknow these things because of the
experiences and the developmentthat it has throughout our
lives.
And then that is part of thejourney of going full circle and
doing the journey ofunderstanding self, because if
we had all this information fromthe day we were born, it'd be a
(10:17):
very boring life, meaning therewouldn't be much to explore or
to go through and I'm not sayingit's a picnic at any stage.
You know life's tricky for mostpeople, if not everyone in
their own ways, but you can findreasoning to why it does need
to be this way.
But then it is that journeyback into self, and it does
(10:39):
often require a lot of falloutwith individuals or the world
before you actually ever realizethat that's where you need to
go, because it's not the firstprotocol, it is not taught to
you, and sometimes it does bringyou to that space in life where
you've nowhere else to go butinwards, before you go outwards
again.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
It's so frustrating too, because we always want to
make it about the other personand it's really not.
If we're not happy withwhatever the communication was,
it's really about what's goingon inside of us, you know,
regardless of what that lookslike, and if the other person
isn't happy with us, it's notalways about us, it's about
(11:18):
what's going on for them.
But we don't get to know thatand I can tell you as someone
who's done a lot ofself-reflection and paid a lot
of attention to this has itgotten easier in the
communication styles?
Professionally, yes.
Personally, I don't thinkthat's.
Oh, so we're being honest here Ican be honest about that
(11:44):
because obviously, like you said, we all have stuff to continue
to learn.
I mean, it gets annoyingsometimes, I'm not gonna lie
about that.
It gets annoying because youthink, okay, I'm finally getting
a handle on this, and then bam,something else rears its ugly
head and you're like, okay, herewe go again.
You know just what is it.
(12:05):
It gets easier as you'relearning to do it, but in the
beginning it's completelybaffling, and even for me and
some of my personalrelationships, when I've tried
to speak to other people and Ican see what they're hearing is
not what I'm trying to say.
So I want you to hear that Ican see what they're hearing is
(12:27):
not what I'm trying to say, andthat is confusing in itself when
you're trying to very sincerelyhave this conversation and it's
just not going in.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
But I think this is why it is such a confusing topic
, because people are trying toget their point across.
As you said earlier in theepisode, people are trying to be
liked.
People are also trying todistract, people are trying to
deflect.
So we've learned a lot of waysin which we can utilize
communication, but it's neverreally for ourselves anymore,
(12:58):
and so, therefore, when youstart layering in all the
different ways in which you canthink about communication, you
can see how that can beoverwhelming, especially at the
start of this journey, becausewe're so used to it really just
filling very specific day-to-dayneeds in our day-to-day
societies and cultures.
But when you start looking atit for yourself as an individual
, I think that can beoverwhelming to start wrapping
(13:20):
your head around.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
Well, especially if you're one of these people that
have learned that outward focusand you're trying to mind read,
so you're having, say, I'mhaving a conversation with you
and I'm watching you and I'mthinking what is he thinking?
Oh, now I.
Oh, why did I say that?
Because he raised his eyebrowand now, you know, he hates me,
and blah, blah, blah, blah whenit comes to this, you know.
(13:44):
So, if people have that mindreading and that's usually a lot
of people that suffer fromanxiety it's so hard for them to
pay attention to what's goingon in them and what they're
trying to communicate, becausethey're so busy trying to figure
out what's going on in theother person's head.
When it's impossible to do that, you know, you can only
(14:04):
understand how it's received ifthe feedback comes back in a way
that you expected it to, and ifit didn't, it's not about
necessarily you got it wrong,it's about where has the
miscommunication happened?
Speaker 2 (14:21):
And I think it's very hard at times to be able to
develop that skill, especiallyif you're around people who are
not that interested indeveloping that skill with you.
We're in a world where someonehas to be right and someone has
to be wrong.
Yeah, so boring.
Did you notice that?
Well, I have in the past, but Ihas to be wrong.
Yeah, so boring.
Did you notice that?
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Well, I have in the past, but I've refused to accept
it.
I just hate the fact thateverybody does that right, wrong
thing.
I hate it.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
But it's automated.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
I know it is.
I know it is.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
But if that's not the killer of all communication, I
don't know what is.
It's the counter tocommunication.
Let's take a step back fromthis week's episode and share
with everyone what we've been upto behind the scenes.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
We're really excited to be able to finally offer the
Gareth Michael community to eachof you.
The community offers a range ofbenefits, including access to
our live events, weekly podcastepisodes, articles,
self-checking questions, as wellas a community of individuals
you can connect with andinteract with along the way.
It's designed to offer yousupport, guidance and a safe
(15:27):
space on a day-to-day basis.
We'd love to have you join ourglobal community of like-minded
individuals.
That website address, again, iswwwgarethmichaelcom.
Now let's get back to thatepisode, shall we?
Speaker 2 (15:45):
So, in saying that, when there is such a focus of
someone having to be right andsomeone having to be wrong, and
someone needs to be leading theconversation or has to be the
dominant one or you have toagree with what I'm saying how
can you ever expect forcommunication to grow or expand,
or for it to be a safe orvulnerable environment to
actually say what's on your mindor even eventually to
(16:07):
communicate what's actuallygoing on within, within you on a
deeper level?
Let that be a mind, body,emotions, past, present or
future.
So you can see how, when,especially in dynamics of a lot
of friendships, relationships,family members, when the focus
is so often on being right,wrong, liked, loved, you know,
(16:28):
based off fear or trauma fromthe past, if there's not much
wiggle room there to actually beable to open up and to maybe
communicate in the way you wouldlike, even if you know that's
an option, whereas most peopledon't even know that there's
other ways to communicate withothers or internally with
themselves I think it's a veryconfronting situation when
(16:50):
that's the case, because we allwant to communicate openly, but
how many people actually haveever felt completely safe in
doing that?
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Not very many people, because of that very little
wiggle room that you just spokeabout.
There's just not a lot ofwiggle room and I think it's
kind of frustrating on one level, but it is also.
There's a lot of growth in thefact when you realize there's
not a lot of room but youcontinue to pursue being able to
(17:21):
be as open and honest as youcan be in your communications,
because somebody has to start,has to start somewhere.
But more often than not youhave to get past that stage of
all the reactivity, because whenwe're trying to communicate
honestly and if it's not beingreceived in the way that we
thought it would be, there'susually a lot of emotional
(17:43):
reactivity that gets lit up andthen it makes you want to shut
down even more yeah yeah, and sohow does one get past that?
Speaker 2 (17:52):
it's a real question what I think the start of it is
being able to realize theindividuals in your life who
want the communication to remainsurface level, versus the
people in your life who actuallymight be interested in for it
to go a little bit deeper.
Because we have the people inour lives who want to keep
ticking the boxes, do not wantto go into any of this reality
(18:13):
of what's going on in eachother's lives.
Talk about the kids constantly.
Talk about work, talk about theneighbors, talk about anything
just about themselves, andthat's okay.
Talk about the weather, but andI know that's there's basic
skills that most people need tohave in order to get through
day-to-day life.
In.
However, that gets very thinafter a period of time,
especially when stuff inside isstarting to bubble up, when the
(18:34):
seams in life start to split indifferent ways.
So I think that's wherestarting to actually weigh up
and when it's time to startopening up and communicate.
I always believe the rightpeople do appear in front of us
or become more present in ourlives in their own ways.
So, in understanding andnavigating the individuals who
actually seem open to hearingyou and are actually asking more
(18:56):
questions about how are youactually doing at times and
giving you those opportunities,understanding who they are,
versus the people who just wantto continue ticking those
surface level boxes.
Is there anything wrong withthose individuals in our lives?
Absolutely not.
But I think it's unfair on bothindividuals to expect more from
the relationship when it'sactually not capable of
(19:16):
delivering more than what it is.
So in understanding that,because if you start trying to
open up, so to speak, with theindividuals who are not ready to
do that, as you were sayingearlier, it can actually force
us more inwards and it can knockour confidence.
We don't want to be vulnerableanymore and those windows of
actually having the courage todo that are often quite small as
(19:38):
we go throughout life.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Well, the real trick is that discernment, you know,
discerning who you can open upmore with or who you are having
those social levels and you knowwhether it's my ADHD, whether
it's the dyslexia, whether it'sthe complex trauma, whether it's
all of the above.
I never got that early on, andso I remember in my 20s, people
(20:01):
used to always tell me Iovershared.
Well, I didn't even understandwhat that meant.
I was just trying to be openand honest and yeah, so it can
be very confusing as you'regoing down this path, but the
thing is is, like you said,instead of giving into that need
to isolate or back off or notbe so vulnerable, it is about
(20:24):
learning that discernment of whois ready to meet you in that
place, of learning tocommunicate and who isn't.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Yeah, yeah, and I think it's an even understanding
.
See, I don't necessarily agreewith, say, when people cut
people out of their lives,especially if you're in an, if
you're in an area in your lifeor time in your life where you
want to start opening up andsomeone else isn't ready to join
you in that yet I like thatsaying I often use with people
is that it doesn't mean it's notnever, it's just not now, you
(20:51):
know, because I think it's tooeasy to cut people out when the
reality is it may not be timefor them, but it's time for you
now.
And there are other people.
It's most likely in our livesthat we can prioritize for what
our needs are in this moment intime.
So everyone's on their own path, as I say, to cut them out when
(21:15):
there are other people whooften appear when the time is
right for us to have theopportunity to open up and be
vulnerable if it presents itselfin the right moments.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Sometimes we don't have that choice, as you've said
many times before, because ofthe emotional reaction that
happens inside of us and we'reunaware of why that emotional
reaction is happening.
You know, I just recently cameacross some learnings that I
found very interesting and itwas about our emotional
(21:46):
embodiment of things prior toour language developing.
And so if we're in anenvironment where we're always
being shut down as very youngchildren and we weren't allowed
to talk when we first make thosesteps to try and get out there
and talk, if it's not met in away that we had hoped, the
(22:07):
physical embodiment part of us,it's a natural shutdown or cut
off or whatever, and it takes.
I think sometimes it takespeople a little while going
through that before theyunderstand.
Wait, I didn't actually want tocut off or whatever, and it
takes.
I think sometimes it takespeople a little while going
through that before theyunderstand wait, I didn't
actually want to cut off or shutoff but something in my body is
forcing that to happen, and I'mnot saying that as an excuse at
(22:28):
all because, it's a real thingthat happens to people, but
again, another area that we'renot taught that you know,
sensation was, as we've oftentalked about in the past, our
very first language, and so thatsensation will still show up.
Even though we're using a lotof verbiage, the sensation still
shows up in the body.
(22:49):
And then it's about gettingcongruent with ourselves and the
sensations in our body to beable to move forward.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
But what I love about that is that that's the
internal communication beingworked on of actually what's
going on with inside any of usand, as you mentioned in the
start of this episode andprevious episodes, that's our
own studying, our own individualmaps of the world and what's
going on.
So it's not only just abouthaving space for what's going on
in other people's lives, but ifwe are finding ourselves
(23:19):
shutting ourselves down or it'snot as easy to find those people
, or struggling to open up, evenif the intention is there or
the logic is there.
But that's another way in whichwe have to explore the
communication that's going onwithin us internally, as well as
why it's maybe harder thanexpected externally, externally.
So our body, our mind, body,emotions and soul are always
(23:40):
sending those signals in thosedifferent ways in which each of
those departments, as I callthem, is communicating with us
in different ways, or why we'restruggling to communicate in
those different ways.
But that is where the growth isgreat just you know I have time
.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Excuse my friend, that's my honest reaction.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
Great, but I mean that's a lifetime.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
All the blood just drained from kim's face it's
like, oh okay, who knewcommunication could be so
complicated?
Speaker 2 (24:10):
us entering this conversation.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Oh true, very true, yes, so that is a lot for
somebody to navigate.
So where would you suggest?
Speaker 2 (24:23):
It's a lot for us to navigate.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
It is a lot for us to navigate, and I think that's
important to say too, gareth,because I love communication and
I am the first person to admitthat I struggle with
communication a lot.
I don't have a problem sayingthat Get me in a session where
I'm one-on-one with someone Ican communicate very effectively
(24:49):
, let my emotions or my bodycome into it, and there's a
whole different story thathappens.
And there's a whole differentstory that happens, and I've
given up seeking that perfectionand I've started just looking
for more progress andunderstanding of myself and why
that's happening, instead ofthinking I might as well just
(25:11):
kick the bucket because I can'tdo it, because that was the
response for a very long time.
So it's about you know,learning how to come back to
ourselves and really have afeedback loop for ourself.
As to what happened for me inthat situation, I can share an
example of this very thing thatjust happened to me.
(25:35):
Recently, I was having aconversation with a very dear
friend of mine and that personsaid something to me about what
I had said which I was like waita minute, are you on Mars and
I'm on Venus?
Because that was not anywhereclose to what I was trying to
say, and, in hindsight, as I satback and reflected, I went, I
(25:57):
went.
Okay, I can see where thisperson has jumped to this
conclusion, but that is not whatI was trying to say, and so how
do I help them get beyond thesurface stuff and see what I was
trying to say underneath that?
Because it wasn't about thepeople in the conversation, it
was about what was happening forme in being misunderstood.
(26:21):
Does that make sense, and so.
But that took a lot ofself-reflection to sit back and
go.
Where did that go so wrong whenit felt like it was going to be
such a simple conversation?
So when I went back andexplained it and left the
surface stuff completely out andspoke from that, I feel place.
(26:44):
I did see my friend's eyesglaze over, and so that's when I
realized okay, so they're notready to hear that, they can't
hear that from me I.
I, however, know what I wastrying to say, which is more
important than anything, becauseI hadn't known that before.
I wasn't aware of what I hadbeen trying to say before.
(27:05):
I was just saying it, hoping itwould be understood.
But when I had that time tostop, go back, reflect and go.
Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait.
No, that's not it.
It was this underneath.
Now that I know that, do I havea huge need to have someone
else understand it?
No, because I understand it.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Yep, and I think even before we started this
conversation for this episode.
I laugh sometimes when we comeon to record because we have an
idea of what we're going to talkabout.
It's not often the plan, andwhen you have a topic like this
of a communication, it's onlywhen you and I get into it that
we realize how much we're goingto bounce around.
We're like, oh wow, I'm goingto cover a lot of random things
(27:46):
and jump around quite a bit.
But I think that can be a goodthing because it shows the
complexity or how layered it isin all of our lives and more
often than not we've never hadthe ability or the chance to
take a step back and actuallysee how important communication
is or, in this example, howcommunication is so important,
but how many layers and how deepit runs in all of us in so many
(28:10):
different ways, both internallyand externally.
So I do think it's important wetalk about some tools and
techniques that maybe any of uscan apply or work on or become
more aware of to have betterconversations and better
communication with ourselves andthe people around us.
So what comes to mind for you?
Speaker 1 (28:27):
I think the very first thing that comes to mind
when I enter a conversation withsomeone is trying to keep at
the forefront of my mind to becurious.
I want to be curious about whatthis person is trying to
express to me, because the moreI'm curious about it, the more
present I'm going to be, andthat's naturally going to tick
(28:48):
that box of really wanting tolisten, to understand, instead
of listen to respond, which isone of those old sayings, but
it's an important saying.
So that would be the firstthing that I would say.
And then it's about checking in.
This is what I think you said.
Is that what you meant by that?
(29:09):
Do you know what I mean?
When you check in with somebodyand you go okay, this is what I
think I heard, am I right?
Then that gives that person theopportunity to go oh no, that's
not what I was trying to say,and then that feedback loop
allows you guys to have a deeperunderstanding.
That's what I would say.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
A lot of the topics that we talk about.
This is another skill set thatall of us have to invest in our
work on in some ways, and inorder to do that, we need to
have a safe environment that youknow I know I mentioned earlier
about the people in our livesmight present themselves in
order to allow us to startopening up or being vulnerable,
but sometimes that is in theform of a qualified therapist or
a qualified coach or actuallysomeone who we want to engage
(29:51):
with.
That we know exactly is goingto be a safe environment for us
to explore conversations oremotions or experiences that
we've never had the opportunityto but we know we can, in a safe
environment, to start buildingthose skill sets at its core or
just feeling comfortable withopening up in that way,
mind-body emotions and, I think,outside of that and just
day-to-day conversations withfamily and friends.
(30:13):
I often tell myself that say,if I'm present in a conversation
, as you were saying, that Ihave to remind myself that there
isn't a right and a wrong there.
Say, if I'm present in aconversation, as you were saying
, that I have to remind myselfthat there isn't a right and a
wrong.
There's what I'm saying.
There's saying it's evenreminding myself I'm not ending
this conversation to have to beliked or to be loved or to be.
That all starts with me.
So I just think as you start toexplore yourself and learn
(30:34):
those skill sets, you do havethose little reminders that you
have to kind of tell yourselfbefore you enter sometimes these
conversations.
To be present, as you weresaying earlier, to take in every
single word, to be curious, toactually find ways to be excited
about the conversations, tokeep ourselves present.
But they're all skills wehaven't been taught.
Yeah, we've often utilizedother people to avoid ourselves,
(30:58):
and that's huge, that a lot ofus don't realize what we do.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
And I think, one of the other key things if you're
learning to do this and you findyourself having that emotional
reactivity, that's a great timeto take a pause in the
conversation, because what mostpeople don't understand is the
whole reason that people end upyelling at each other is because
they don't feel heard orunderstood, and so they get
louder and louder becausethey're wanting to be heard or
(31:26):
understood.
So if there's an emotionalreaction, it's a good time to
take a little bit of a time out,just breathe, come back what
happened inside of me, let themwork out what's happening inside
of them, reminding yourself,like you just said, there
doesn't have to be a right orwrong here.
This is someone expressingwhat's going on for them and
(31:46):
then monitoring what your ownexpectations of the conversation
are.
Are you having the conversationto be liked?
Are you having the conversationto be right?
Are you having the conversationbecause you want to understand
or because you want to be liked?
Are you having the conversationto be right?
Are you having the conversationbecause you want to understand
or because you want to beunderstood?
Speaker 2 (32:02):
I'd like to set a challenge for our listeners that
for the next person thatthey're speaking with, for them
to be self-aware of the ways inwhich they're being present.
Not being present Does theirmind wander, as we've been
talking about.
Are we focusing on being liked,being right, being wrong Are?
Are we triggered I just think,even in challenging yourself to
do it once this week to be hyperfocused in on what's going on
(32:25):
within you as you're engagingwith another person.
You might be surprised in whatit brings up I think that'll be
a great challenge.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
Thanks so much for listening.
If you enjoyed this episode,then you might want to check out
our online community.
We built it to offer you thecomfort of having a supportive
community by your side, nomatter where life takes you
Connect with like-mindedindividuals through our app.
Navigate each step of thejourney together with us by
(32:56):
joining our Gareth Michaelcommunity.
Here are a few of the thingsyou're going to get.
You'll get exclusive real-timeaccess to live recording and
events.
Advanced access to each newepisode.
The opportunity to askquestions directly of Gareth and
I Input into what topics wecover in the show.
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(33:20):
To learn more about ourcommunity, please go to
wwwgarethmichaelcom.
Thanks again, and I hope youguys are having a lovely week.
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