March 31, 2025 • 44 mins
In this episode of the Practical Spirituality Podcast, Gareth and Kim examine why we care so much about other people’s opinions. They delve into the psychological roots of this tendency, explaining how humans are wired from infancy to seek external validation for survival, creating neural pathways that can persist throughout adulthood. They assess how these patterns have intensified in the digital age, and the impact of social media.
Our hosts share personal stories of grappling with comparison, perfectionism, and the pressure to maintain seemingly “perfect” facades. They highlight how relying too heavily on others’ judgments can result in anxiety and self-doubt. They also discuss practical strategies for moving beyond this cycle, emphasizing self-validation, establishing boundaries, and expressing oneself authentically.
Rather than advocating for a complete dismissal of external feedback, they encourage listeners to develop a healthier relationship with others’ views, allowing them to inform but not define personal identity. For anyone who has felt the need to “people-please”, this episode offers support, guidance, and practical insights for cultivating greater peace and authenticity.
Become a Community Member at https://community.garethmichael.com/ to join our community and get early access to new episodes, answers to your personal questions and so much more.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:12):
Welcome back to the Practical Spirituality Podcast.
We are so excited to have youon this journey with us, where
we explore all elements of mind,body, emotions and soul through
the lens of everyday life.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Hello Kim.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Hello.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Gareth, how are you doing this morning?
Speaker 1 (00:32):
I'm doing okay this morning.
How are you doing?
Speaker 2 (00:35):
I'm doing really well .
I have another interestingtopic for this week.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
That'll be interesting.
Let's hear it.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
I don't think you'll be able to relate, because I
don't think you care what peoplethink of you.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
I don't think you'll be able to relate because I
don't think you care what peoplethink of you.
That's funny.
Yes, I don't.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
I don't relate.
Okay, so I'll give context toall the listeners.
I had a client this week thatwas mentioning some of their
anxieties or things that theystruggle with in day-to-day life
, and in this particularconversation we talked about
caring about what people thinkand basically, why is that a
universal experience?
I think we can all relate tothat in our own ways and how
(01:14):
that evolves and changes as wego throughout life.
So I did think at the time andwith that person's permission,
that would be a very interestingtopic for the podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
I think it's a great topic because, like you said,
it's universal and we allexperience it on one level or
another.
Some of us may experience itmore than others, but we all
experience it, and I think it'sa very long journey to get to
that place where I don't thinkyou ever stop caring what
everybody else thinks.
But I think you get to a levelof what part of it is important,
(01:45):
what part of it isn't important.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
So let's dive in.
I do think it's a veryinteresting topic as we're
talking about because, onceagain, it's a universal
experience we all go through andas we go through life, our
relationship with caring aboutwhat people think continues to
evolve and change.
Also, as we mature and get toknow ourselves but fundamentally
understand the roots of why wecare so much.
(02:08):
To start with, all of that isbasically that because we are
social beings and from a veryyoung age, as we've talked about
a number of times on thispodcast, we care what people
think.
As parts of it is a survivalmechanism in order to get
through life, especially from anearly age.
So I know that this is leaninginto your area of expertise, so
(02:29):
I'm going to let you take itaway from here of explaining why
do we care what people think somuch?
Speaker 1 (02:34):
So what I'd like to say about this is it's such a
big topic and there's so manylayers to this different topic
that we can focus on any one ofthose layers, but I think it's
important that we put context tosome of the things that we're
about to explain.
So, for example, when we'reborn, we are completely
dependent on our caregivers, andso of course we're looking for
(02:58):
that external validation.
You know, and we don't evenknow, that's what we're looking
for because of our developmentalstage.
But then what happens as westart to grow?
Naturally, people are alwaysapplauding us when we do great
things.
We learn, just like Pavlov'sdogs, that oh, if I do something
good, people are going to,they're going to congratulate me
(03:19):
.
So there's that aspect.
But then there's also theaspect if you are in a very
volatile situation as a veryyoung child and people are not
paying attention to you, youlearn that if you can do
something that makes them feelbetter, then you will survive
early age.
(03:41):
And so it goes from that to aswe grow, we step into this
social conditioning.
So we go off to school or we gooff to daycare, or our family
has a certain way of reacting tocertain things.
The culture has a certain wayof reacting to certain things.
So we want to fit in.
I think that's one of thosenatural things that happens to
(04:04):
us.
We want to fit in and so we'relooking to make sure that we are
fitting in by the expressionson everybody else's faces and
we're too young to even realizewhat's happening.
Well, once that becomeshabitualized and then we start
to grow a little bit, then itbecomes more about this fear of
rejection.
(04:24):
Because now that we've startedseeking that external validation
, we think, if we don't get it,that we somehow don't fit or
we're not okay or we're not thesame as others.
And even though it might beoperating at that survival level
we're not consciously aware ofthat we just know that we're
afraid we're going to getrejected if we don't fit or if
(04:46):
we're not getting thatvalidation from outside of
ourself.
It becomes pretty hardwired inall of us.
Some of us are lucky enough tobuild a self-esteem at a young
age, that they have an internalguide.
They're still going okay.
Well, look, I can see you'renot happy with me, but this is
what I'm going to do.
(05:06):
My daughter was one of thosepeople.
She came into this world a Leo,full of herself very
strong-willed.
She didn't really care, sheknew what she wanted and she
would go after it.
And as someone that came intothe world on that survival scale
, as someone that came into theworld on that survival scale.
(05:30):
It used to blow my mind how muchshe just didn't care, but she
didn't escape it altogether,just like everybody else.
If it doesn't kick in at veryearly childhood, then you get
the social conditioning atschool where you're left out of
a group and all of a suddenyou're like why am I being left
out of the group?
And then it starts to affectyou at that scale and I can tell
you quite honestly I have quitea few clients today because our
world has shifted so much.
(05:50):
We had that pandemic.
A lot of people were sociallyisolated and now you have a
whole group of people who don'tknow how to go out and interact
socially because they wereisolated for so long.
And they start believing thatit's all about.
They don't fit into the rightculture to be able to date to
(06:10):
interact with others their ownage and they're looking for that
exterior approval.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
And I think when you look at it or start exploring it
, what becomes interesting isthat people who have a strong
identity and understanding ofself tend to care less about it,
as you were saying.
It doesn't mean that it stilldoesn't play a role.
We're all human in our own waysand which ways it can appear
throughout our lives.
But the more we understand selfand we understand where
(06:37):
people's thinking comes from,our own thinking comes from, and
where the foundations of thatstart showing up, then you can
begin to see, okay, it tends toleave less of a mark in
day-to-day life because youstart using it as a sense of a
reflection about self.
Why did that trigger me?
Where did that come from?
What experiences or who doesthat remind me of when I hear
(06:59):
those?
Certain phrases or certainsentences are being compared.
But what's interesting aboutmodern day is that how much of
it's been shoved into our facesmore than ever before of the
comparison and caring whatpeople think, especially when it
comes to social media, ourcareers, how many likes we get,
how many comments, how manyfriends, how many followers.
It's just constantly that therat race of trying to get ahead
(07:23):
and to get people's acceptance.
So it's always been there inour human nature, if you want to
say, and it all started.
It used to be just, shall wesay, contained to our homes, our
friends, our neighbors, ourvillages, our towns, our cities,
but now it's actually to eachperson.
This is now, on a global scale,of how do I get this much
(07:43):
attention as humanly possible?
But when I get it, I can't hackit or handle it either.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Yes or it doesn't have the result we want.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Never.
And this is what's reallyconfusing, I think, about the
human experience at the moment,and its evolution is fascinating
because we care what peoplethink.
We want to control thenarrative constantly, but
there's a deep part.
We want to control thenarrative constantly, but
there's a deep part of us thatknows that we can't.
But it's like a very addictivedrug that we can't seem to get
off that ride.
(08:12):
But again that comes back downto we don't have a strong
understanding or sense of selfto understand why we're chasing
it to start with, as well aseveryone else.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Yes.
And the other thing thathappens if you don't have that
sense of self else yes.
And the other thing thathappens if you don't have that
sense of self and you're outthere and you're validating your
very existence based on howother people are responding to
you.
That becomes a verydouble-edged sword and I'm sure
that you have seen that withsome of your own clients, as I
have with mine that they can'tseem to do anything without
(08:45):
getting the external validation.
That then turns into thathamster wheel of constantly
running those looping thoughtsof trying to work out oh, I've
got Gareth today.
What if I say the wrong thing?
Oh my gosh, he's going to saythis, I'm going to say this,
then he's going to react likethis and then I'm going to be
pissed off and then that's it.
We're not going to be friendsanymore.
(09:06):
We haven't even seen each other.
You know what I mean.
I for one used to live likethat and it's not comfortable
and it becomes very obsessivebecause we think that our value
is based on how other peoplereact to us.
That's when it goes to thatextreme and that's where the
(09:26):
perfectionism starts to kick in.
That's where we're alwayssecond guessing our decisions
because it's like I have nosense of self to judge whether I
can and I need to see.
This is the other thing I usedto do.
I used to need to get everybodyelse's opinion, but I wouldn't
just get one person's opinion,I'd get 10 people's opinion.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
The whole street's opinion.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
And they'd all be different.
And then I'd feel 10 timesworse because now I don't know
which one to pick.
And no matter which one I pick,somebody's going to be pissed
off at my decision and I'm stillgoing to get it wrong because
it becomes an internal right orwrong thing and that's when it
starts to really becomeoverwhelming, it starts to
become dysfunctional and itreally disrupts our life.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Because I couldn't agree more and I think this was
fascinating.
Say, even if we're using verysimple examples here, let's say,
if you or I would post apicture on social media and it's
that, if we're the type ofperson that would check for
likes or comments, and if we'researching for how many likes
compared to the previous post,or if the comments are negative
or positive, I think it'sfascinating beginning to
(10:32):
actually break down.
What am I searching for ineither being present?
Okay, so it's that if there's apositive comment there, I'm
looking for a sense of approval,but if there's a negative
comment there that I'm alsosearching for in my own way,
it's because I'm looking for itto also keep me down, in a sense
to feed a different part of meto not believe in myself.
(10:53):
So it goes to show howconditioned we are that why are
we checking in the first place,regardless if it's positive or
negative, that the positive ornegative comment is feeding
different parts of our lack ofunderstanding of self, or even
belief in self, in differentways, because they both trigger
both sides of it that areequally unhealthy for different
reasons and they both triggerthe same sort of thing.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
You know that increases your anxiety.
If you don't have a highself-esteem or a good value of
yourself, it just plumbs iteither way, because there is a
part of you that knows, whenyou're looking for those
positive comments, that you need, that that's your little drug
of choice.
And then if you're looking forthe negative content, it's the
proof.
(11:34):
See, I told you, I told you.
I wasn't worth anything, and soit leads to that never, ever,
ever ever feeling good enough,no matter what's going on.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
But that's what's interesting also is that we have
never been taught or shown ortrained to see this, that this
is an addiction within itself,and you can see why social media
and all the different platformshave become so big around the
world because it's exactlyfeeding that I had to get off
social media for not that exactreason, but for a similar reason
(12:07):
.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
So what would happen for me on social media is and
I'm a person who celebratesother people's growth I think
that's a healthy way of being.
I really like it.
But what I noticed on socialmedia, when someone would post
something that they were doing,especially in my industry this
overwhelming sense of beingbehind would happen I'm behind
(12:29):
the scale, I'm not doing enough,I need to do more, and it would
keep me in that perfectionismtrap that I've somehow hadn't
got it right because somebodyelse was doing something that I
wasn't doing, that I probablywasn't meant to be doing in the
first place.
Didn't matter, though At thatpoint I was comparing myself,
and that comes from the samesort of thing that we're talking
(12:50):
about.
That I could never get it right, and it used to send me into
such a spin that I finally justwent.
What am I doing here?
This?
Speaker 2 (12:59):
is ridiculous.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Yes, I am not in competition with any of these
people.
My life doesn't depend on whatthey're doing versus what I'm
doing.
This is feeding this loop in mybrain.
That is not healthy for me.
I just don't know how manypeople can see that when it's
happening to them.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Very few, very few, and that's why I think it's a
very important conversation.
Because we get so stuck in thatloop, as you were saying, and
because everyone else is sostuck in that loop, as you were
saying, and because everyoneelse is equally stuck in that
loop and everyone's comparingwith one another about their
performance.
It's a very hard cycle to break, because if everyone in your
house has a drinking problem,then none of you are going to
pull yourself out of it, right?
Because you're all drinkingbuddies together.
(13:38):
It can be take a lot toactually to need, to want or to
find a way to break some ofthese cycles, and it is also can
be tricky to strike thatbalance of wanting to engage
with the world and to engagewith people but, at the same
time, not being triggered oralso not deeply caring what they
think or what their perceptionis on it, especially when it's
(14:00):
an addiction within itself.
So it does take time to do that.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Well, I think that's true.
It's not till we startquestioning it.
And it wasn't until I startedto work with someone else that I
started to see I can't readsomeone else's mind and I can't
change somebody else's opinionof me.
No matter what I do, they'regoing to have their opinion
(14:25):
regardless and it's truthfullynone of my business what their
opinion of me is.
And that is the part whenyou've been trapped in this loop
for a long time that can bevery hard to break out of.
And it's also, you know, like,for example, in my case being
raised in the large family, thatI was raised, in my case being
(14:49):
raised in the large family, thatI was raised in, having the
conditions in my family thatwere there, I came away from
that situation believing that Iwas less than believing that I
would never amount, believingcertain things about myself.
And so the minute that I'm in ahigh stress situation or a
prolonged stress situation, itdoesn't take long for me to fall
right back into it and it takesconscious awareness to bring
(15:13):
myself out.
So that is, I think, feels alittle bit defeating, but it's
true.
You know, like, if it is beenconditioned in for a long time,
as you've often said, we'regoing to repeat these patterns,
and it puts a strain onrelationships because when you
start to repeat the old patternsand the people don't understand
(15:33):
why you're repeating this oldpattern and it makes no sense to
them, they don't know how toreact to you.
They don't know what to do.
That's going to make you feelbetter or not feel better and,
truthfully, it's not even theirjob to do that, it's our job.
It's not their responsibilityyes, to pull ourself out of it.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
So it becomes a very vicious cycle for some people
and I think sometimes we're justlike any addiction that we find
ourselves in is that we'remeant to be in it for as long as
we're meant to be in it becausethere's certain experiences
we're meant to have with it.
But there's always ways in whichwe start pulling away from it
or breaking from it.
When the timing is absolutelyright, and that's as you were
saying, when the right personcomes along, or multiple people
(16:13):
that's part of their journey toassist us on ours, it becomes.
Then we begin to have theopportunity to strike that
balance over a period of time ofwhat works best for us, and
beginning to build thatrelationship with self, like
most of the things we talk about, is a key factor in that, and I
think sometimes, as we both didat different stages in our
lives, having a detox away fromsocial media or were a lot of
(16:38):
the where we find ourselves inthe comparison mode, especially
in our day-to-day lives, can bea huge step.
It's hard to realizesomething's toxic when you're in
it, and it's only so even ifyou're not questioning it or
asking why you just removeyourself from something as
simple as social media.
I've yet to hear one person whohasn't been like, wow, I feel
so much better from pulling myhead out of that, even if
(17:00):
they've never explored it.
One question further.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
Yeah, yeah, it is amazing, and I don't think, you
know, even our media, even ouradvertising, is geared for us to
be constantly looking for thatexternal validation in ways of,
well, if you drive this car,you've got the look, you've got
the right family, you've got thehappiness, you've got the
(17:24):
whatever, got the right family,you've got the happiness, you've
got the whatever.
And so we all think, oh okay, Imean, it seems so trivial, but
it's true, and it often operateson a very unconscious level,
that we're not even aware that'swhat we're doing.
And so if you're findingyourself this is, I think, the
side that we haven't reallycovered yet If you're finding
(17:45):
yourself doing thatself-analysis about what
somebody else is thinking, whenyou're really caught up in,
maybe even censoring yourselfbecause you're worried about the
other person's reaction, thoseare all warning signs that you
need to go in and do someself-reflection and find out
what you can do differently.
Go in and do someself-reflection and find out
(18:07):
what you can do differently,because you have to start to
recognize that it isn't workingfor you first, and then, when it
isn't working, how can youstart to change it.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
I couldn't agree more , and I think that's why it is
the internal journey as you'retalking about, because it's not
about isolating yourself, it'snot about walking away from
family, friends, partners,colleagues, because as long as
we're interacting with the world, let it be in person or on
social media every person youmeet is going to have an opinion
and they're going to thinksomething about you.
Yeah, they are.
(18:36):
Were you aware of that?
yeah, oh yes so we can run, butwe can't hide when it comes to
these realities.
Kim's giving it her best.
How's it going over there?
pretty good job of it, sometimespretty good job, pretty good
(18:58):
job, but I do think it's thatit's.
We can take a break from it fora period of time, you know, to
get our ducks in the road tounderstand.
But longer term it's importantthat we build that resilience
from the inside out andinvesting into self of what is
the journey that any of us asindividuals have to do with this
(19:18):
part of us, because it's auniversal experience that we all
go through day in, day out.
But so it's only when werealize that and have an
acceptance of that in some waysthat I think we can find
interesting internal strengththat we didn't know was possible
before.
And I do think that means weallow ourselves longer term to
be more outspoken, to be morecreative, to be more honest, to
(19:41):
be more authentic.
Because, you think about it,when we care what people think,
we're often living in so muchfear yes and when we're in fear,
how can we expect ourselves tobe our authentic selves, or to
say what's on our minds, or todo what we want to do or take
action in the ways we've dreamtof?
So you can see how life attimes pushes us to these points
(20:02):
of actually needing to exploreourselves in that way, because
it can open up a whole newchapter in any of our lives.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
This is very true.
But the other part of that isis, you know, we have to learn
how to validate ourselves, whichwas a foreign concept for me up
until I was almost 40.
Like, I never even heard theword of self validation.
I thought that just meantselfishness.
It's taken me a long time to beable to just go hey, you're
okay, You're okay as you are.
(20:30):
Do I believe that 100% of thetime, Absolutely not Work in
progress here.
You know, and I think it'simportant to say that as well,
because one of the things Ilearned at a younger age is I
learned how to front up and looklike I could do it I learned
(20:51):
how to put on that mask verystrongly, so much so I can
remember when my mom was almost80 and we were having a
conversation and she was askingme why I thought that I was
addicted and why I had so manyissues because I am the child in
the family that had so manyissues and I just kind of looked
(21:11):
at her like she was crazy.
I'm like what do you mean?
How can you not know this?
So we were having a very openand candid conversation and she
got sad and she said, yeah, itmakes me very sad.
And I said why?
And she goes because I alwaysthought you were doing so well,
you look so capable, you nevercomplained, you always look like
you had a control on all of it.
(21:34):
And there is the mask.
You know that, oh, I'll justfake it till I make it, I'll go
out there.
And people used to think I wasokay.
But you know, I was the duckwhere I'd look like I was
smoothly across the water but Iwas paddling like mad underneath
(21:54):
it just trying to exist.
And I'm sure there'll be a lotof people that can relate to
that.
And so this concept ofvalidating myself, of giving
myself, that's what I waslooking for outside, first of
all A.
It didn't seem to have anyweight to it when I would try
and validate myself, because Ididn't really believe it, and
(22:15):
then it was learning tocelebrate the small wins that
started to finally chunk away atit along with all the other
work that I was doing at thetime, but I think it's important
to say, for people out therethey might not even know how to
validate themselves.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
And I think even in you saying that, it's that when
we jump to thinking about whatpeople are thinking of us, we
never realize that that'sactually how we think about
ourselves.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Yes, that's very true .
Speaker 2 (22:45):
I know it's so simple , but that's what's going on
deep within us.
So we're putting words intotheir mouths, but really we're
saying it about ourselves.
Let's take a step back fromthis week's episode and share
with everyone what we've been upto behind the scenes.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
We're really excited to be able to finally offer the
Gareth Michael community to eachof you.
The community offers a range ofbenefits, including access to
our live events, weekly podcastepisodes, articles,
self-checking questions, as wellas a community of individuals
you can connect with andinteract with along the way.
It's designed to offer yousupport, guidance and a safe
(23:28):
space on a day-to-day basis.
We'd love to have you join ourglobal community of like-minded
individuals.
That website address, again, iswwwgarethmichaelcom.
Now, let's get back to thatepisode, shall we?
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Now, let's get back to that episode shall we so
often on this podcast we talkabout?
We all live such busy liveswhich is true, like we're never
going to sit here and sayotherwise.
Everyone is busy doing theirown thing, but we're with
ourselves all the time, but wenever spend quality times with
ourselves to understand wherethe thinking is coming from.
(24:05):
Why are we jumping to theseconclusions?
How are we mind-body emotions?
And so it's not surprising thatwhen we're not able to have
that quality time and to processor to understand those parts of
this, then of course it's goingto have that negative bias that
you often talk about, because Ido believe that our system has
to get creative at times inorder to get our attention, and
(24:25):
there's nothing better than itgets our attention than when
there's negativity going onwithin us.
It's kind of like when any ofus have a cold or flu.
While blowing your nose, you'relike I forget what it's like to
be well, yes, you know you'rewishing yes so, but so it has
our full, undivided attention.
So, therefore, if we're thinkingnegatively about ourselves and
(24:46):
we can't give ourselves thatself-validation in that ways,
then it's not surprising that itkeeps appearing in a lot of
different ways before we evenengage in another conversation
with another person.
It'll never cease to amaze mein all the different signals
that our system and mind bodyemotions gets creative and
trying to get our attention toshow us.
In all the different signalsthat our system and mind body
emotions gets creative andtrying to get our attention to
(25:08):
show us in all the differentways we need to get to know self
.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
And the problem is we have no idea how to get to know
self, especially if we've beenrunning on this gambit, this
looping in our brain for so long, focusing on everything and
everybody else and theirreactions to us.
And the worst part about it isit's the least effective way of
(25:37):
discovering what's going on,because someone can have a
reaction, and I have this happento me all the time Because of
the environment I grew up in,because so many emotions were
not okay.
Anger was okay.
What started showing up for meis whenever I'm frightened, I
get an angry tone.
(25:57):
I know it, I'm aware of it.
Now I didn't for a long timeand everybody used to say to me
you are so angry.
I'm like, no, I'm actually notangry.
And no amount of me tellingpeople that I wasn't angry did
they believe me.
I knew it was fear.
I knew I was scared to death.
And that became such a hardthing because I was like why
(26:20):
can't I get people to see I'mscared?
I wanted them to see I wasscared because I wanted help,
but they kept saying I was justtoo see, I'm scared.
I wanted them to see I wasscared because I wanted help,
but they kept saying I was justtoo angry for the help, Okay, so
now, how am I going to learnhow to navigate that?
You know, when all the feedbackis coming to me that I'm angry.
So of course I'm secondguessing myself.
Well, maybe I am angry.
Well, what am I angry about?
(26:41):
Well, no, I know I'm scared.
I can feel my heart beating.
I can feel that feeling in mygut.
I know I'm scared, but nobodybelieves me when I say I'm
scared.
And so that feedback becomesreally important when you're
starting to really try and getto know yourself, because you
have to have feedback that isgoing to help you explore you,
(27:05):
because it's never about theother person, Even if they're
telling you, well, you soundangry.
Well, I know I'm not angry.
I have to start trusting me.
Their interpretation of me istheir interpretation of me, and
I can't change that.
However I can.
And it was interesting whenthat started happening, because
(27:28):
I had been on this journey forquite a while before I started
to recognize.
Oh See, because you know,here's a very interesting thing
and I don't know if people willrelate to this or not.
When I get angry, you know whathappens to me.
I get quiet.
And my kids?
The first time I realized thatit was my kids that said it to
(27:48):
me.
My kids said, uh-oh, mom's gonequiet, Watch out, the volcano's
going to blow any second now.
And I was like, what are youtalking about?
And they're like come on, mom,we all know that when you get
quiet, you are really angry.
So you see, if we are lookingfor that external validation, if
(28:09):
we are looking at it throughsomeone else, my signals would
completely confuse the livinglife out of you, because that's
not how average person wouldrespond to those situations and
we all respond differently.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
It's all such an internal process which is often
funded or fueled by a lot ofmisunderstanding about ourselves
and funded by fear also.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Yes, yep.
So you can't get to knowyourself unless you can have a
way of getting that feedbackloop and start to understand
what the reactions mean to youand then also understanding that
what you might be readingoutside of yourself isn't valid
either, and that is a part Ithink a lot of people don't
(28:58):
understand.
So I guess it's about then,once you start that journey in
learning about yourself,learning who you actually are,
what that means to you.
And, gareth, I would say this Iknew for a long time, because I
can remember when I firstwalked into that 12-step program
(29:19):
and people asked me what Iwanted, I remember saying I just
want to be comfortable in myown skin.
I had no idea what that meant,but that's what I wanted.
I wanted to feel okay, being me, but I didn't know how to do
that.
And you just don't learn thatin everyday classes anymore.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
And the good reason is we talk about often of why
it's not meant to be taught thatway, because it takes you on a
very extraordinary journey of alot of life experiences with a
lot of individuals that youwouldn't have met otherwise, and
that's why we're not meant tobe fed all this information from
a very young age, and it's easyfor people to say, oh, I'm too
late in life learning this andit's like I think I could have
(30:01):
learned it a little bit earlier,that I'm sure there are other
adventures and areas of growththat I could go on.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
Once I understood it, I know that I would have really
loved to.
Okay, so we're talking aboutjust about every single one of
us here, talking about justabout every single one of us
here, and so the journey inward,as we have said so many times,
is truthfully where we're goingto get the biggest growth, as
long as we have some help alongthe way to understand what we're
(30:32):
discovering, because if wecould have figured it out on our
own.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
we would have done that a long time ago, Because if
we could have figured it out onour own, we would have done
that a long time ago.
That's where you can't fakethis journey and when it comes,
there's a lot of the books ofinformation that we might all be
fascinated now that might be infront of us, but 20 years ago
we probably would have scoffedat it.
I said I don't need that help,why are you giving me that book?
Or I'm not going to listen tothat person, but that's where we
(30:56):
were at at that time.
So yes, we all might say now Iwish I had have learned this
earlier, well, earlier.
None of us were interested,true.
We thought we had it allfigured out.
That's true.
This is why, when all of us arefollowing a similar timeline in
our own ways of when we startexploring this, it's not a
coincidence.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
No, it's not.
It it's not a coincidence.
No, it's not, it's really not.
And you don't realize thatunless you're working with a lot
of people, like we are.
You know, because I rememberwhen I first started really
working with people, I startedseeing the different stages of
life, that we start to havedifferent awarenesses or
different things get triggered,and it's, it's incredible how
(31:38):
typical it is for each of us.
I mean, it varies a year or two, but there is a general age
that certain awarenesses startto happen.
The old midlife crisis isactually oh, this is the time we
get to start waking up.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
Midlife awakening.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
Yeah I think that would be a better word for it a
midlife awakening we startrecognizing where it's not
working, everywhere.
So when we talk about findingour way out of this loop that
we've gotten ourself into, ofthat external feedback, I think
one of the first things thathelped me that I was taught, was
(32:17):
I had to sit down one day.
I'm not suggesting thateverybody does this, but because
I was so deep in the loop.
I was at a personal developmentseminar and the person leading
the seminar said you know, youneed to start celebrating small
wins and recognizing how muchyou've actually already overcome
.
And I was like nothing, Ihaven't overcome anything, blah,
(32:40):
blah, blah.
But and I use it with myclients sometimes I did learn
how to crawl, I learned how tofeed myself, I learned how to
walk, I learned how to tie myshoes, and when you do that
massive list, all of a sudden itwasn't anybody else that told
you how to walk, you got up anddid it yourself, and so it's
(33:04):
really starting to celebratethose small wins.
But you need theself-reflection as well as
you're doing that, and sometimeswe talk about doing journaling.
Sometimes that is just talkingwith another person about it and
tearing it apart.
Some people say mindfulness,but I personally like present
(33:33):
moment awareness because as Istarted bringing myself back to
the present, it was easier forme to see what was real and what
wasn't real.
Like, for example, dragging mybrain back to the present.
I was the only person in theroom.
Why was I concerned about thegroup of people at school, or
why was I concerned about theboss?
It was me.
It was me doing that, and oneof my famous stories that I tell
so many people is about I wassitting at my computer.
(33:53):
One day my kids were quiteyoung and I was at the beginning
of this journey.
Phone bill came in and thephone bill was astronomical and
I went into a full-on panicattack because I was so worried
about my husband's response tothe phone bill and that we
didn't have the money to pay itat that time.
(34:13):
And as I sat there, I had juststarted this process and as I
sat there, I was like whoa, stop.
And I did my present momentawareness and I was like very
firm with myself Kim, what'schanged?
You're sitting here at yourdesk.
There is no one in the room, itis only you.
The only thing that has changedin your life is.
You opened up a page and therewere some black and white
(34:36):
letters on a page that you readthat created this snowball
effect.
This has nothing to do with theoutside world.
This has everything to do withthe inside world and it sounds
so simplistic, but that was anawakening moment for me.
I was like, oh, this isn'tabout them, this is about me.
(34:58):
And that was when I started tobe able to turn it around and
start going okay, so what'shappening in me in this moment?
So how do I want to be, how doI want to respond?
And it just brought a brand newawareness to myself.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
And I think, to add on to that, I know in the past
what's worked for me is that ifI'd found myself stuck in that
loop of caring about what otherpeople were thinking or felt it
was stronger than usual, thatoften meant that probably I was
running a lot of anxiety, I wasstressed or my current routine,
(35:34):
I was not finding enough timefor me and, as I said earlier in
this conversation, I waslearning as I went along that my
system had to get creative toget my attention when I wasn't
fulfilling my own needs andtherefore it was like an alarm
bell going off and suddenlyother people's opinions or other
people's worlds that wereimaginary in my head was
(35:56):
becoming a more of a priorityfor me, which was make-believe
than my own present-day reality.
So therefore, when those alarmbells started going off, I said,
okay, do I, you know, take thedog for a walk?
Do I go and take?
Try to reorganize my day tofind more time for me.
Am I exhausted?
Do I need to actually see?
Can I get some more rest insome way?
(36:17):
So I just think it's that it'soften because we haven't been
able to feed ourselves in theways it's actually necessary in
those moments, and that's whenthe noise gets louder and louder
over a period of time thatbrings us to a breaking point,
that forces us back to self.
So I think it's only with timeand experience that you begin
understanding these signals forwhat they actually are, that
(36:40):
they're not trying to hurt us,they're not trying to make our
lives harder.
It's trying to say to us wecan't keep doing the same thing,
expecting a different result,exactly.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
Exactly, yeah, and it can get right down to that
simpleness, as you said.
I think it's amazing that thatis one of the key factors that
taking care of ourself in somany different areas that we
talk about no one ever teachesus about it.
It's a hard learned lesson formost of us, and it goes against
(37:14):
so much conditioning and we gettold.
And so this is where I coined aphrase self-full because we get
told if we take care of ourself, we're being selfish and you
can't give back to anybody ifyour cup is empty, and so that's
why I came up with self-full.
If I could fill myself up, thenI'm not running on those nerves
(37:35):
that you just talked about,that raw anxiety, the stress
isn't getting to me, I'm notoverwhelmed.
When I'm comfortable in my ownskin because I've been giving me
what I need, then I can respondin a completely different way
to the outside world.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
Because we're never not going to care what people
think in the sense of anyaddiction that we have.
We're going to be aware of whenthat starts to appear within us
.
But then it's what we do withthat information.
Which is what you're saying isthat if we haven't been taught
how to manage that information,what to do with it or what
action is required when thatappears, you know so.
Therefore, it's that when thatbegins to appear, it's telling
(38:14):
us something that we now knowwhat to do with that information
that we didn't know before,because you and I, of course,
are going to find ourselves inthose positions where we
certainly care.
But then, once again, it's likewhat does that say about where
I'm at present day?
Because it says a lot moreabout me than it does about them
.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
Absolutely it does, and I think the other process is
becoming authentic and livingfrom that place of authenticity.
Now, this also was veryconfusing for me as I stepped
into the world of authenticity.
Because of the lack ofboundaries, because of the lack
of sense of self, I didn't know.
(38:51):
So I was not very tactful withmy truth bombs because I thought
authenticity was about beingtruthful, and it is.
You know, it's more about that.
My words and my actions arematching.
What I'm saying.
What I'm saying and what I'mdoing is matching.
Again, that's an internal guidewhich I didn't know, that I
(39:14):
thought it was all about justbeing brutally honest, and so I
didn't have the discernment ofwhen to be honest and when not
to be honest.
But coming back to learning howto be authentic with me was
about what someone says do youwant to?
So here's a pleaser example foreverybody, in case you don't
have one hey, where would youlike to go eat?
(39:35):
I don't care.
Where do you want to eat?
Well, what do you like to goeat?
I don't care.
Where do you want to eat?
Well, what do you want to do?
I don't care.
What do you want to do?
It's a classic, isn't it?
And so then if someone picks solike, my favorite food is
Mexican If someone says, let'sgo have Chinese, I'm like, but
then I don't think I have theright to have an opinion because
I just threw it away and nowI'm going to sit in a little bit
(40:03):
of resentment because I got toplease this person instead of
going.
Oh, I was kind of feeling morelike Mexican, and that's being
authentic.
I'm not saying we have to haveit, I'm just saying I was
feeling more like Mexican.
Now you have a negotiationwhere both people can decide
what's going to work best, butif everybody's going, oh no, I
don't care.
What do you want to do?
That is more the authenticityand the discernment that I'm
(40:23):
talking about when it comes tolearning how to do that.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
And I think one of the last things that comes to
mind is important when it comesto building that relationship
with self and caring less whatpeople think, and understanding
the roots of that is learningthe different boundaries that we
need to set.
And when I say boundaries, tomy mind, I'm not thinking just
with people.
I'm even talking about, say,with our schedules, our routines
(40:49):
, our relationship with socialmedia and different things are
just no longer healthy as partof our lives, but has become the
standard and it just takes upso much space that there is an
imbalance in our lives.
If we don't have the time tospend with self, as I was
mentioning earlier, then how canwe expect anything to improve,
even in the slightest?
(41:10):
And then, of course, if we moveacross to other people, it's
about if there's certainboundaries that are not there or
our mind is running all thetime because people are not
respecting our space or notgiving us a chance to express or
constantly dominating theconversation.
Then we can all make sense ofwhy our mind is constantly
filling in the blanks, becausewe don't know how to have an
(41:30):
opinion, to express ourselves,to be authentic, to express.
So it takes up a lot of spacebrace, so it takes up a lot of
space and I think the only wayto build confidence about
learning how to createboundaries is by speaking with
professionals, actuallyunderstand the different
techniques and ways we can startengaging in that way in a safe
environment.
Because, especially when we'vebeen in those environments from
(41:50):
a young age with dominatingindividuals, it doesn't come
naturally and normally.
When we try to insert thoseboundaries it ends up in some
sort of argument or someuncomfortable position,
especially if you're runningthose people-pleasing patterns
as you mentioned.
All we feel internally is see,this is exactly why I don't try
this or do this, and thenincreases the anxiety, then
(42:13):
increases projecting what'sgoing to happen in conversation
and we get stuck in that hamsterwheel, as you mentioned earlier
.
So learning the art of actuallycreating those boundaries that
works for both individuals underthose circumstances and
creating boundaries, even withthe sometimes work, personal
life balance and even in makingsure that there's time in the
(42:33):
day where it's just withourselves, becomes very
important, because we've neverbeen taught the importance of
that and when there is thatimbalance, just because we get
used to living that imbalancedoes not mean that it's okay and
it's because everyone around usis living, potentially that
imbalance does not mean it'sokay, because if you look around
you don't know if you'venoticed it's not working for him
anymore no, it's not we can allpretend it is as you mentioned,
(42:58):
we all learn the skill ofpainting on the face but we're
all deeply exhausted more oftenthan not, and we are all running
a lot of high anxiety, highfunctioning anxiety, which only
leads to a lot more of theaddictions that we can see and a
lot of them that we can't seein each other's lives.
So, setting those boundaries andwhen we find ourselves breaking
(43:18):
our own boundaries, that's allthe validation you need that
things need to change.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
Absolutely Couldn't have said it better.
Thanks so much for listening.
If you enjoyed this episode,then you might want to check out
our online community.
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(43:44):
Navigate each step of thejourney together with us by
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(44:04):
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wwwgarethmichaelcom.
Thanks again, and I hope youguys are having a lovely week.
Welcome back to the Practical Spirituality Podcast.
We are so excited to have youon this journey with us, where
we explore all elements of mind,body, emotions and soul through
the lens of everyday life.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Hello Kim.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Hello.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Gareth, how are you doing this morning?
Speaker 1 (00:32):
I'm doing okay this morning.
How are you doing?
Speaker 2 (00:35):
I'm doing really well .
I have another interestingtopic for this week.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
That'll be interesting.
Let's hear it.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
I don't think you'll be able to relate, because I
don't think you care what peoplethink of you.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
I don't think you'll be able to relate because I
don't think you care what peoplethink of you.
That's funny.
Yes, I don't.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
I don't relate.
Okay, so I'll give context toall the listeners.
I had a client this week thatwas mentioning some of their
anxieties or things that theystruggle with in day-to-day life
, and in this particularconversation we talked about
caring about what people thinkand basically, why is that a
universal experience?
I think we can all relate tothat in our own ways and how
(01:14):
that evolves and changes as wego throughout life.
So I did think at the time andwith that person's permission,
that would be a very interestingtopic for the podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
I think it's a great topic because, like you said,
it's universal and we allexperience it on one level or
another.
Some of us may experience itmore than others, but we all
experience it, and I think it'sa very long journey to get to
that place where I don't thinkyou ever stop caring what
everybody else thinks.
But I think you get to a levelof what part of it is important,
(01:45):
what part of it isn't important.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
So let's dive in.
I do think it's a veryinteresting topic as we're
talking about because, onceagain, it's a universal
experience we all go through andas we go through life, our
relationship with caring aboutwhat people think continues to
evolve and change.
Also, as we mature and get toknow ourselves but fundamentally
understand the roots of why wecare so much.
(02:08):
To start with, all of that isbasically that because we are
social beings and from a veryyoung age, as we've talked about
a number of times on thispodcast, we care what people
think.
As parts of it is a survivalmechanism in order to get
through life, especially from anearly age.
So I know that this is leaninginto your area of expertise, so
(02:29):
I'm going to let you take itaway from here of explaining why
do we care what people think somuch?
Speaker 1 (02:34):
So what I'd like to say about this is it's such a
big topic and there's so manylayers to this different topic
that we can focus on any one ofthose layers, but I think it's
important that we put context tosome of the things that we're
about to explain.
So, for example, when we'reborn, we are completely
dependent on our caregivers, andso of course we're looking for
(02:58):
that external validation.
You know, and we don't evenknow, that's what we're looking
for because of our developmentalstage.
But then what happens as westart to grow?
Naturally, people are alwaysapplauding us when we do great
things.
We learn, just like Pavlov'sdogs, that oh, if I do something
good, people are going to,they're going to congratulate me
(03:19):
.
So there's that aspect.
But then there's also theaspect if you are in a very
volatile situation as a veryyoung child and people are not
paying attention to you, youlearn that if you can do
something that makes them feelbetter, then you will survive
early age.
(03:41):
And so it goes from that to aswe grow, we step into this
social conditioning.
So we go off to school or we gooff to daycare, or our family
has a certain way of reacting tocertain things.
The culture has a certain wayof reacting to certain things.
So we want to fit in.
I think that's one of thosenatural things that happens to
(04:04):
us.
We want to fit in and so we'relooking to make sure that we are
fitting in by the expressionson everybody else's faces and
we're too young to even realizewhat's happening.
Well, once that becomeshabitualized and then we start
to grow a little bit, then itbecomes more about this fear of
rejection.
(04:24):
Because now that we've startedseeking that external validation
, we think, if we don't get it,that we somehow don't fit or
we're not okay or we're not thesame as others.
And even though it might beoperating at that survival level
we're not consciously aware ofthat we just know that we're
afraid we're going to getrejected if we don't fit or if
(04:46):
we're not getting thatvalidation from outside of
ourself.
It becomes pretty hardwired inall of us.
Some of us are lucky enough tobuild a self-esteem at a young
age, that they have an internalguide.
They're still going okay.
Well, look, I can see you'renot happy with me, but this is
what I'm going to do.
(05:06):
My daughter was one of thosepeople.
She came into this world a Leo,full of herself very
strong-willed.
She didn't really care, sheknew what she wanted and she
would go after it.
And as someone that came intothe world on that survival scale
, as someone that came into theworld on that survival scale.
(05:30):
It used to blow my mind how muchshe just didn't care, but she
didn't escape it altogether,just like everybody else.
If it doesn't kick in at veryearly childhood, then you get
the social conditioning atschool where you're left out of
a group and all of a suddenyou're like why am I being left
out of the group?
And then it starts to affectyou at that scale and I can tell
you quite honestly I have quitea few clients today because our
world has shifted so much.
(05:50):
We had that pandemic.
A lot of people were sociallyisolated and now you have a
whole group of people who don'tknow how to go out and interact
socially because they wereisolated for so long.
And they start believing thatit's all about.
They don't fit into the rightculture to be able to date to
(06:10):
interact with others their ownage and they're looking for that
exterior approval.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
And I think when you look at it or start exploring it
, what becomes interesting isthat people who have a strong
identity and understanding ofself tend to care less about it,
as you were saying.
It doesn't mean that it stilldoesn't play a role.
We're all human in our own waysand which ways it can appear
throughout our lives.
But the more we understand selfand we understand where
(06:37):
people's thinking comes from,our own thinking comes from, and
where the foundations of thatstart showing up, then you can
begin to see, okay, it tends toleave less of a mark in
day-to-day life because youstart using it as a sense of a
reflection about self.
Why did that trigger me?
Where did that come from?
What experiences or who doesthat remind me of when I hear
(06:59):
those?
Certain phrases or certainsentences are being compared.
But what's interesting aboutmodern day is that how much of
it's been shoved into our facesmore than ever before of the
comparison and caring whatpeople think, especially when it
comes to social media, ourcareers, how many likes we get,
how many comments, how manyfriends, how many followers.
It's just constantly that therat race of trying to get ahead
(07:23):
and to get people's acceptance.
So it's always been there inour human nature, if you want to
say, and it all started.
It used to be just, shall wesay, contained to our homes, our
friends, our neighbors, ourvillages, our towns, our cities,
but now it's actually to eachperson.
This is now, on a global scale,of how do I get this much
(07:43):
attention as humanly possible?
But when I get it, I can't hackit or handle it either.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Yes or it doesn't have the result we want.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Never.
And this is what's reallyconfusing, I think, about the
human experience at the moment,and its evolution is fascinating
because we care what peoplethink.
We want to control thenarrative constantly, but
there's a deep part.
We want to control thenarrative constantly, but
there's a deep part of us thatknows that we can't.
But it's like a very addictivedrug that we can't seem to get
off that ride.
(08:12):
But again that comes back downto we don't have a strong
understanding or sense of selfto understand why we're chasing
it to start with, as well aseveryone else.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Yes.
And the other thing thathappens if you don't have that
sense of self else yes.
And the other thing thathappens if you don't have that
sense of self and you're outthere and you're validating your
very existence based on howother people are responding to
you.
That becomes a verydouble-edged sword and I'm sure
that you have seen that withsome of your own clients, as I
have with mine that they can'tseem to do anything without
(08:45):
getting the external validation.
That then turns into thathamster wheel of constantly
running those looping thoughtsof trying to work out oh, I've
got Gareth today.
What if I say the wrong thing?
Oh my gosh, he's going to saythis, I'm going to say this,
then he's going to react likethis and then I'm going to be
pissed off and then that's it.
We're not going to be friendsanymore.
(09:06):
We haven't even seen each other.
You know what I mean.
I for one used to live likethat and it's not comfortable
and it becomes very obsessivebecause we think that our value
is based on how other peoplereact to us.
That's when it goes to thatextreme and that's where the
(09:26):
perfectionism starts to kick in.
That's where we're alwayssecond guessing our decisions
because it's like I have nosense of self to judge whether I
can and I need to see.
This is the other thing I usedto do.
I used to need to get everybodyelse's opinion, but I wouldn't
just get one person's opinion,I'd get 10 people's opinion.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
The whole street's opinion.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
And they'd all be different.
And then I'd feel 10 timesworse because now I don't know
which one to pick.
And no matter which one I pick,somebody's going to be pissed
off at my decision and I'm stillgoing to get it wrong because
it becomes an internal right orwrong thing and that's when it
starts to really becomeoverwhelming, it starts to
become dysfunctional and itreally disrupts our life.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Because I couldn't agree more and I think this was
fascinating.
Say, even if we're using verysimple examples here, let's say,
if you or I would post apicture on social media and it's
that, if we're the type ofperson that would check for
likes or comments, and if we'researching for how many likes
compared to the previous post,or if the comments are negative
or positive, I think it'sfascinating beginning to
(10:32):
actually break down.
What am I searching for ineither being present?
Okay, so it's that if there's apositive comment there, I'm
looking for a sense of approval,but if there's a negative
comment there that I'm alsosearching for in my own way,
it's because I'm looking for itto also keep me down, in a sense
to feed a different part of meto not believe in myself.
(10:53):
So it goes to show howconditioned we are that why are
we checking in the first place,regardless if it's positive or
negative, that the positive ornegative comment is feeding
different parts of our lack ofunderstanding of self, or even
belief in self, in differentways, because they both trigger
both sides of it that areequally unhealthy for different
reasons and they both triggerthe same sort of thing.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
You know that increases your anxiety.
If you don't have a highself-esteem or a good value of
yourself, it just plumbs iteither way, because there is a
part of you that knows, whenyou're looking for those
positive comments, that you need, that that's your little drug
of choice.
And then if you're looking forthe negative content, it's the
proof.
(11:34):
See, I told you, I told you.
I wasn't worth anything, and soit leads to that never, ever,
ever ever feeling good enough,no matter what's going on.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
But that's what's interesting also is that we have
never been taught or shown ortrained to see this, that this
is an addiction within itself,and you can see why social media
and all the different platformshave become so big around the
world because it's exactlyfeeding that I had to get off
social media for not that exactreason, but for a similar reason
(12:07):
.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
So what would happen for me on social media is and
I'm a person who celebratesother people's growth I think
that's a healthy way of being.
I really like it.
But what I noticed on socialmedia, when someone would post
something that they were doing,especially in my industry this
overwhelming sense of beingbehind would happen I'm behind
(12:29):
the scale, I'm not doing enough,I need to do more, and it would
keep me in that perfectionismtrap that I've somehow hadn't
got it right because somebodyelse was doing something that I
wasn't doing, that I probablywasn't meant to be doing in the
first place.
Didn't matter, though At thatpoint I was comparing myself,
and that comes from the samesort of thing that we're talking
(12:50):
about.
That I could never get it right, and it used to send me into
such a spin that I finally justwent.
What am I doing here?
This?
Speaker 2 (12:59):
is ridiculous.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Yes, I am not in competition with any of these
people.
My life doesn't depend on whatthey're doing versus what I'm
doing.
This is feeding this loop in mybrain.
That is not healthy for me.
I just don't know how manypeople can see that when it's
happening to them.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Very few, very few, and that's why I think it's a
very important conversation.
Because we get so stuck in thatloop, as you were saying, and
because everyone else is sostuck in that loop, as you were
saying, and because everyoneelse is equally stuck in that
loop and everyone's comparingwith one another about their
performance.
It's a very hard cycle to break, because if everyone in your
house has a drinking problem,then none of you are going to
pull yourself out of it, right?
Because you're all drinkingbuddies together.
(13:38):
It can be take a lot toactually to need, to want or to
find a way to break some ofthese cycles, and it is also can
be tricky to strike thatbalance of wanting to engage
with the world and to engagewith people but, at the same
time, not being triggered oralso not deeply caring what they
think or what their perceptionis on it, especially when it's
(14:00):
an addiction within itself.
So it does take time to do that.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Well, I think that's true.
It's not till we startquestioning it.
And it wasn't until I startedto work with someone else that I
started to see I can't readsomeone else's mind and I can't
change somebody else's opinionof me.
No matter what I do, they'regoing to have their opinion
(14:25):
regardless and it's truthfullynone of my business what their
opinion of me is.
And that is the part whenyou've been trapped in this loop
for a long time that can bevery hard to break out of.
And it's also, you know, like,for example, in my case being
raised in the large family, thatI was raised, in my case being
(14:49):
raised in the large family, thatI was raised in, having the
conditions in my family thatwere there, I came away from
that situation believing that Iwas less than believing that I
would never amount, believingcertain things about myself.
And so the minute that I'm in ahigh stress situation or a
prolonged stress situation, itdoesn't take long for me to fall
right back into it and it takesconscious awareness to bring
(15:13):
myself out.
So that is, I think, feels alittle bit defeating, but it's
true.
You know, like, if it is beenconditioned in for a long time,
as you've often said, we'regoing to repeat these patterns,
and it puts a strain onrelationships because when you
start to repeat the old patternsand the people don't understand
(15:33):
why you're repeating this oldpattern and it makes no sense to
them, they don't know how toreact to you.
They don't know what to do.
That's going to make you feelbetter or not feel better and,
truthfully, it's not even theirjob to do that, it's our job.
It's not their responsibilityyes, to pull ourself out of it.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
So it becomes a very vicious cycle for some people
and I think sometimes we're justlike any addiction that we find
ourselves in is that we'remeant to be in it for as long as
we're meant to be in it becausethere's certain experiences
we're meant to have with it.
But there's always ways in whichwe start pulling away from it
or breaking from it.
When the timing is absolutelyright, and that's as you were
saying, when the right personcomes along, or multiple people
(16:13):
that's part of their journey toassist us on ours, it becomes.
Then we begin to have theopportunity to strike that
balance over a period of time ofwhat works best for us, and
beginning to build thatrelationship with self, like
most of the things we talk about, is a key factor in that, and I
think sometimes, as we both didat different stages in our
lives, having a detox away fromsocial media or were a lot of
(16:38):
the where we find ourselves inthe comparison mode, especially
in our day-to-day lives, can bea huge step.
It's hard to realizesomething's toxic when you're in
it, and it's only so even ifyou're not questioning it or
asking why you just removeyourself from something as
simple as social media.
I've yet to hear one person whohasn't been like, wow, I feel
so much better from pulling myhead out of that, even if
(17:00):
they've never explored it.
One question further.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
Yeah, yeah, it is amazing, and I don't think, you
know, even our media, even ouradvertising, is geared for us to
be constantly looking for thatexternal validation in ways of,
well, if you drive this car,you've got the look, you've got
the right family, you've got thehappiness, you've got the
(17:24):
whatever, got the right family,you've got the happiness, you've
got the whatever.
And so we all think, oh okay, Imean, it seems so trivial, but
it's true, and it often operateson a very unconscious level,
that we're not even aware that'swhat we're doing.
And so if you're findingyourself this is, I think, the
side that we haven't reallycovered yet If you're finding
(17:45):
yourself doing thatself-analysis about what
somebody else is thinking, whenyou're really caught up in,
maybe even censoring yourselfbecause you're worried about the
other person's reaction, thoseare all warning signs that you
need to go in and do someself-reflection and find out
what you can do differently.
Go in and do someself-reflection and find out
(18:07):
what you can do differently,because you have to start to
recognize that it isn't workingfor you first, and then, when it
isn't working, how can youstart to change it.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
I couldn't agree more , and I think that's why it is
the internal journey as you'retalking about, because it's not
about isolating yourself, it'snot about walking away from
family, friends, partners,colleagues, because as long as
we're interacting with the world, let it be in person or on
social media every person youmeet is going to have an opinion
and they're going to thinksomething about you.
Yeah, they are.
(18:36):
Were you aware of that?
yeah, oh yes so we can run, butwe can't hide when it comes to
these realities.
Kim's giving it her best.
How's it going over there?
pretty good job of it, sometimespretty good job, pretty good
(18:58):
job, but I do think it's thatit's.
We can take a break from it fora period of time, you know, to
get our ducks in the road tounderstand.
But longer term it's importantthat we build that resilience
from the inside out andinvesting into self of what is
the journey that any of us asindividuals have to do with this
(19:18):
part of us, because it's auniversal experience that we all
go through day in, day out.
But so it's only when werealize that and have an
acceptance of that in some waysthat I think we can find
interesting internal strengththat we didn't know was possible
before.
And I do think that means weallow ourselves longer term to
be more outspoken, to be morecreative, to be more honest, to
(19:41):
be more authentic.
Because, you think about it,when we care what people think,
we're often living in so muchfear yes and when we're in fear,
how can we expect ourselves tobe our authentic selves, or to
say what's on our minds, or todo what we want to do or take
action in the ways we've dreamtof?
So you can see how life attimes pushes us to these points
(20:02):
of actually needing to exploreourselves in that way, because
it can open up a whole newchapter in any of our lives.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
This is very true.
But the other part of that isis, you know, we have to learn
how to validate ourselves, whichwas a foreign concept for me up
until I was almost 40.
Like, I never even heard theword of self validation.
I thought that just meantselfishness.
It's taken me a long time to beable to just go hey, you're
okay, You're okay as you are.
(20:30):
Do I believe that 100% of thetime, Absolutely not Work in
progress here.
You know, and I think it'simportant to say that as well,
because one of the things Ilearned at a younger age is I
learned how to front up and looklike I could do it I learned
(20:51):
how to put on that mask verystrongly, so much so I can
remember when my mom was almost80 and we were having a
conversation and she was askingme why I thought that I was
addicted and why I had so manyissues because I am the child in
the family that had so manyissues and I just kind of looked
(21:11):
at her like she was crazy.
I'm like what do you mean?
How can you not know this?
So we were having a very openand candid conversation and she
got sad and she said, yeah, itmakes me very sad.
And I said why?
And she goes because I alwaysthought you were doing so well,
you look so capable, you nevercomplained, you always look like
you had a control on all of it.
(21:34):
And there is the mask.
You know that, oh, I'll justfake it till I make it, I'll go
out there.
And people used to think I wasokay.
But you know, I was the duckwhere I'd look like I was
smoothly across the water but Iwas paddling like mad underneath
(21:54):
it just trying to exist.
And I'm sure there'll be a lotof people that can relate to
that.
And so this concept ofvalidating myself, of giving
myself, that's what I waslooking for outside, first of
all A.
It didn't seem to have anyweight to it when I would try
and validate myself, because Ididn't really believe it, and
(22:15):
then it was learning tocelebrate the small wins that
started to finally chunk away atit along with all the other
work that I was doing at thetime, but I think it's important
to say, for people out therethey might not even know how to
validate themselves.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
And I think even in you saying that, it's that when
we jump to thinking about whatpeople are thinking of us, we
never realize that that'sactually how we think about
ourselves.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Yes, that's very true .
Speaker 2 (22:45):
I know it's so simple , but that's what's going on
deep within us.
So we're putting words intotheir mouths, but really we're
saying it about ourselves.
Let's take a step back fromthis week's episode and share
with everyone what we've been upto behind the scenes.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
We're really excited to be able to finally offer the
Gareth Michael community to eachof you.
The community offers a range ofbenefits, including access to
our live events, weekly podcastepisodes, articles,
self-checking questions, as wellas a community of individuals
you can connect with andinteract with along the way.
It's designed to offer yousupport, guidance and a safe
(23:28):
space on a day-to-day basis.
We'd love to have you join ourglobal community of like-minded
individuals.
That website address, again, iswwwgarethmichaelcom.
Now, let's get back to thatepisode, shall we?
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Now, let's get back to that episode shall we so
often on this podcast we talkabout?
We all live such busy liveswhich is true, like we're never
going to sit here and sayotherwise.
Everyone is busy doing theirown thing, but we're with
ourselves all the time, but wenever spend quality times with
ourselves to understand wherethe thinking is coming from.
(24:05):
Why are we jumping to theseconclusions?
How are we mind-body emotions?
And so it's not surprising thatwhen we're not able to have
that quality time and to processor to understand those parts of
this, then of course it's goingto have that negative bias that
you often talk about, because Ido believe that our system has
to get creative at times inorder to get our attention, and
(24:25):
there's nothing better than itgets our attention than when
there's negativity going onwithin us.
It's kind of like when any ofus have a cold or flu.
While blowing your nose, you'relike I forget what it's like to
be well, yes, you know you'rewishing yes so, but so it has
our full, undivided attention.
So, therefore, if we're thinkingnegatively about ourselves and
(24:46):
we can't give ourselves thatself-validation in that ways,
then it's not surprising that itkeeps appearing in a lot of
different ways before we evenengage in another conversation
with another person.
It'll never cease to amaze mein all the different signals
that our system and mind bodyemotions gets creative and
trying to get our attention toshow us.
In all the different signalsthat our system and mind body
emotions gets creative andtrying to get our attention to
(25:08):
show us in all the differentways we need to get to know self
.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
And the problem is we have no idea how to get to know
self, especially if we've beenrunning on this gambit, this
looping in our brain for so long, focusing on everything and
everybody else and theirreactions to us.
And the worst part about it isit's the least effective way of
(25:37):
discovering what's going on,because someone can have a
reaction, and I have this happento me all the time Because of
the environment I grew up in,because so many emotions were
not okay.
Anger was okay.
What started showing up for meis whenever I'm frightened, I
get an angry tone.
(25:57):
I know it, I'm aware of it.
Now I didn't for a long timeand everybody used to say to me
you are so angry.
I'm like, no, I'm actually notangry.
And no amount of me tellingpeople that I wasn't angry did
they believe me.
I knew it was fear.
I knew I was scared to death.
And that became such a hardthing because I was like why
(26:20):
can't I get people to see I'mscared?
I wanted them to see I wasscared because I wanted help,
but they kept saying I was justtoo see, I'm scared.
I wanted them to see I wasscared because I wanted help,
but they kept saying I was justtoo angry for the help, Okay, so
now, how am I going to learnhow to navigate that?
You know, when all the feedbackis coming to me that I'm angry.
So of course I'm secondguessing myself.
Well, maybe I am angry.
Well, what am I angry about?
(26:41):
Well, no, I know I'm scared.
I can feel my heart beating.
I can feel that feeling in mygut.
I know I'm scared, but nobodybelieves me when I say I'm
scared.
And so that feedback becomesreally important when you're
starting to really try and getto know yourself, because you
have to have feedback that isgoing to help you explore you,
(27:05):
because it's never about theother person, Even if they're
telling you, well, you soundangry.
Well, I know I'm not angry.
I have to start trusting me.
Their interpretation of me istheir interpretation of me, and
I can't change that.
However I can.
And it was interesting whenthat started happening, because
(27:28):
I had been on this journey forquite a while before I started
to recognize.
Oh See, because you know,here's a very interesting thing
and I don't know if people willrelate to this or not.
When I get angry, you know whathappens to me.
I get quiet.
And my kids?
The first time I realized thatit was my kids that said it to
(27:48):
me.
My kids said, uh-oh, mom's gonequiet, Watch out, the volcano's
going to blow any second now.
And I was like, what are youtalking about?
And they're like come on, mom,we all know that when you get
quiet, you are really angry.
So you see, if we are lookingfor that external validation, if
(28:09):
we are looking at it throughsomeone else, my signals would
completely confuse the livinglife out of you, because that's
not how average person wouldrespond to those situations and
we all respond differently.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
It's all such an internal process which is often
funded or fueled by a lot ofmisunderstanding about ourselves
and funded by fear also.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Yes, yep.
So you can't get to knowyourself unless you can have a
way of getting that feedbackloop and start to understand
what the reactions mean to youand then also understanding that
what you might be readingoutside of yourself isn't valid
either, and that is a part Ithink a lot of people don't
(28:58):
understand.
So I guess it's about then,once you start that journey in
learning about yourself,learning who you actually are,
what that means to you.
And, gareth, I would say this Iknew for a long time, because I
can remember when I firstwalked into that 12-step program
(29:19):
and people asked me what Iwanted, I remember saying I just
want to be comfortable in myown skin.
I had no idea what that meant,but that's what I wanted.
I wanted to feel okay, being me, but I didn't know how to do
that.
And you just don't learn thatin everyday classes anymore.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
And the good reason is we talk about often of why
it's not meant to be taught thatway, because it takes you on a
very extraordinary journey of alot of life experiences with a
lot of individuals that youwouldn't have met otherwise, and
that's why we're not meant tobe fed all this information from
a very young age, and it's easyfor people to say, oh, I'm too
late in life learning this andit's like I think I could have
(30:01):
learned it a little bit earlier,that I'm sure there are other
adventures and areas of growththat I could go on.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
Once I understood it, I know that I would have really
loved to.
Okay, so we're talking aboutjust about every single one of
us here, talking about justabout every single one of us
here, and so the journey inward,as we have said so many times,
is truthfully where we're goingto get the biggest growth, as
long as we have some help alongthe way to understand what we're
(30:32):
discovering, because if wecould have figured it out on our
own.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
we would have done that a long time ago, Because if
we could have figured it out onour own, we would have done
that a long time ago.
That's where you can't fakethis journey and when it comes,
there's a lot of the books ofinformation that we might all be
fascinated now that might be infront of us, but 20 years ago
we probably would have scoffedat it.
I said I don't need that help,why are you giving me that book?
Or I'm not going to listen tothat person, but that's where we
(30:56):
were at at that time.
So yes, we all might say now Iwish I had have learned this
earlier, well, earlier.
None of us were interested,true.
We thought we had it allfigured out.
That's true.
This is why, when all of us arefollowing a similar timeline in
our own ways of when we startexploring this, it's not a
coincidence.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
No, it's not.
It it's not a coincidence.
No, it's not, it's really not.
And you don't realize thatunless you're working with a lot
of people, like we are.
You know, because I rememberwhen I first started really
working with people, I startedseeing the different stages of
life, that we start to havedifferent awarenesses or
different things get triggered,and it's, it's incredible how
(31:38):
typical it is for each of us.
I mean, it varies a year or two, but there is a general age
that certain awarenesses startto happen.
The old midlife crisis isactually oh, this is the time we
get to start waking up.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
Midlife awakening.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
Yeah I think that would be a better word for it a
midlife awakening we startrecognizing where it's not
working, everywhere.
So when we talk about findingour way out of this loop that
we've gotten ourself into, ofthat external feedback, I think
one of the first things thathelped me that I was taught, was
(32:17):
I had to sit down one day.
I'm not suggesting thateverybody does this, but because
I was so deep in the loop.
I was at a personal developmentseminar and the person leading
the seminar said you know, youneed to start celebrating small
wins and recognizing how muchyou've actually already overcome
.
And I was like nothing, Ihaven't overcome anything, blah,
(32:40):
blah, blah.
But and I use it with myclients sometimes I did learn
how to crawl, I learned how tofeed myself, I learned how to
walk, I learned how to tie myshoes, and when you do that
massive list, all of a sudden itwasn't anybody else that told
you how to walk, you got up anddid it yourself, and so it's
(33:04):
really starting to celebratethose small wins.
But you need theself-reflection as well as
you're doing that, and sometimeswe talk about doing journaling.
Sometimes that is just talkingwith another person about it and
tearing it apart.
Some people say mindfulness,but I personally like present
(33:33):
moment awareness because as Istarted bringing myself back to
the present, it was easier forme to see what was real and what
wasn't real.
Like, for example, dragging mybrain back to the present.
I was the only person in theroom.
Why was I concerned about thegroup of people at school, or
why was I concerned about theboss?
It was me.
It was me doing that, and oneof my famous stories that I tell
so many people is about I wassitting at my computer.
(33:53):
One day my kids were quiteyoung and I was at the beginning
of this journey.
Phone bill came in and thephone bill was astronomical and
I went into a full-on panicattack because I was so worried
about my husband's response tothe phone bill and that we
didn't have the money to pay itat that time.
(34:13):
And as I sat there, I had juststarted this process and as I
sat there, I was like whoa, stop.
And I did my present momentawareness and I was like very
firm with myself Kim, what'schanged?
You're sitting here at yourdesk.
There is no one in the room, itis only you.
The only thing that has changedin your life is.
You opened up a page and therewere some black and white
(34:36):
letters on a page that you readthat created this snowball
effect.
This has nothing to do with theoutside world.
This has everything to do withthe inside world and it sounds
so simplistic, but that was anawakening moment for me.
I was like, oh, this isn'tabout them, this is about me.
(34:58):
And that was when I started tobe able to turn it around and
start going okay, so what'shappening in me in this moment?
So how do I want to be, how doI want to respond?
And it just brought a brand newawareness to myself.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
And I think, to add on to that, I know in the past
what's worked for me is that ifI'd found myself stuck in that
loop of caring about what otherpeople were thinking or felt it
was stronger than usual, thatoften meant that probably I was
running a lot of anxiety, I wasstressed or my current routine,
(35:34):
I was not finding enough timefor me and, as I said earlier in
this conversation, I waslearning as I went along that my
system had to get creative toget my attention when I wasn't
fulfilling my own needs andtherefore it was like an alarm
bell going off and suddenlyother people's opinions or other
people's worlds that wereimaginary in my head was
(35:56):
becoming a more of a priorityfor me, which was make-believe
than my own present-day reality.
So therefore, when those alarmbells started going off, I said,
okay, do I, you know, take thedog for a walk?
Do I go and take?
Try to reorganize my day tofind more time for me.
Am I exhausted?
Do I need to actually see?
Can I get some more rest insome way?
(36:17):
So I just think it's that it'soften because we haven't been
able to feed ourselves in theways it's actually necessary in
those moments, and that's whenthe noise gets louder and louder
over a period of time thatbrings us to a breaking point,
that forces us back to self.
So I think it's only with timeand experience that you begin
understanding these signals forwhat they actually are, that
(36:40):
they're not trying to hurt us,they're not trying to make our
lives harder.
It's trying to say to us wecan't keep doing the same thing,
expecting a different result,exactly.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
Exactly, yeah, and it can get right down to that
simpleness, as you said.
I think it's amazing that thatis one of the key factors that
taking care of ourself in somany different areas that we
talk about no one ever teachesus about it.
It's a hard learned lesson formost of us, and it goes against
(37:14):
so much conditioning and we gettold.
And so this is where I coined aphrase self-full because we get
told if we take care of ourself, we're being selfish and you
can't give back to anybody ifyour cup is empty, and so that's
why I came up with self-full.
If I could fill myself up, thenI'm not running on those nerves
(37:35):
that you just talked about,that raw anxiety, the stress
isn't getting to me, I'm notoverwhelmed.
When I'm comfortable in my ownskin because I've been giving me
what I need, then I can respondin a completely different way
to the outside world.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
Because we're never not going to care what people
think in the sense of anyaddiction that we have.
We're going to be aware of whenthat starts to appear within us
.
But then it's what we do withthat information.
Which is what you're saying isthat if we haven't been taught
how to manage that information,what to do with it or what
action is required when thatappears, you know so.
Therefore, it's that when thatbegins to appear, it's telling
(38:14):
us something that we now knowwhat to do with that information
that we didn't know before,because you and I, of course,
are going to find ourselves inthose positions where we
certainly care.
But then, once again, it's likewhat does that say about where
I'm at present day?
Because it says a lot moreabout me than it does about them
.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
Absolutely it does, and I think the other process is
becoming authentic and livingfrom that place of authenticity.
Now, this also was veryconfusing for me as I stepped
into the world of authenticity.
Because of the lack ofboundaries, because of the lack
of sense of self, I didn't know.
(38:51):
So I was not very tactful withmy truth bombs because I thought
authenticity was about beingtruthful, and it is.
You know, it's more about that.
My words and my actions arematching.
What I'm saying.
What I'm saying and what I'mdoing is matching.
Again, that's an internal guidewhich I didn't know, that I
(39:14):
thought it was all about justbeing brutally honest, and so I
didn't have the discernment ofwhen to be honest and when not
to be honest.
But coming back to learning howto be authentic with me was
about what someone says do youwant to?
So here's a pleaser example foreverybody, in case you don't
have one hey, where would youlike to go eat?
(39:35):
I don't care.
Where do you want to eat?
Well, what do you like to goeat?
I don't care.
Where do you want to eat?
Well, what do you want to do?
I don't care.
What do you want to do?
It's a classic, isn't it?
And so then if someone picks solike, my favorite food is
Mexican If someone says, let'sgo have Chinese, I'm like, but
then I don't think I have theright to have an opinion because
I just threw it away and nowI'm going to sit in a little bit
(40:03):
of resentment because I got toplease this person instead of
going.
Oh, I was kind of feeling morelike Mexican, and that's being
authentic.
I'm not saying we have to haveit, I'm just saying I was
feeling more like Mexican.
Now you have a negotiationwhere both people can decide
what's going to work best, butif everybody's going, oh no, I
don't care.
What do you want to do?
That is more the authenticityand the discernment that I'm
(40:23):
talking about when it comes tolearning how to do that.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
And I think one of the last things that comes to
mind is important when it comesto building that relationship
with self and caring less whatpeople think, and understanding
the roots of that is learningthe different boundaries that we
need to set.
And when I say boundaries, tomy mind, I'm not thinking just
with people.
I'm even talking about, say,with our schedules, our routines
(40:49):
, our relationship with socialmedia and different things are
just no longer healthy as partof our lives, but has become the
standard and it just takes upso much space that there is an
imbalance in our lives.
If we don't have the time tospend with self, as I was
mentioning earlier, then how canwe expect anything to improve,
even in the slightest?
(41:10):
And then, of course, if we moveacross to other people, it's
about if there's certainboundaries that are not there or
our mind is running all thetime because people are not
respecting our space or notgiving us a chance to express or
constantly dominating theconversation.
Then we can all make sense ofwhy our mind is constantly
filling in the blanks, becausewe don't know how to have an
(41:30):
opinion, to express ourselves,to be authentic, to express.
So it takes up a lot of spacebrace, so it takes up a lot of
space and I think the only wayto build confidence about
learning how to createboundaries is by speaking with
professionals, actuallyunderstand the different
techniques and ways we can startengaging in that way in a safe
environment.
Because, especially when we'vebeen in those environments from
(41:50):
a young age with dominatingindividuals, it doesn't come
naturally and normally.
When we try to insert thoseboundaries it ends up in some
sort of argument or someuncomfortable position,
especially if you're runningthose people-pleasing patterns
as you mentioned.
All we feel internally is see,this is exactly why I don't try
this or do this, and thenincreases the anxiety, then
(42:13):
increases projecting what'sgoing to happen in conversation
and we get stuck in that hamsterwheel, as you mentioned earlier
.
So learning the art of actuallycreating those boundaries that
works for both individuals underthose circumstances and
creating boundaries, even withthe sometimes work, personal
life balance and even in makingsure that there's time in the
(42:33):
day where it's just withourselves, becomes very
important, because we've neverbeen taught the importance of
that and when there is thatimbalance, just because we get
used to living that imbalancedoes not mean that it's okay and
it's because everyone around usis living, potentially that
imbalance does not mean it'sokay, because if you look around
you don't know if you'venoticed it's not working for him
anymore no, it's not we can allpretend it is as you mentioned,
(42:58):
we all learn the skill ofpainting on the face but we're
all deeply exhausted more oftenthan not, and we are all running
a lot of high anxiety, highfunctioning anxiety, which only
leads to a lot more of theaddictions that we can see and a
lot of them that we can't seein each other's lives.
So, setting those boundaries andwhen we find ourselves breaking
(43:18):
our own boundaries, that's allthe validation you need that
things need to change.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
Absolutely Couldn't have said it better.
Thanks so much for listening.
If you enjoyed this episode,then you might want to check out
our online community.
We built it to offer you thecomfort of having a supportive
community by your side, nomatter where life takes you.
Connect with like-mindedindividuals through our app.
(43:44):
Navigate each step of thejourney together with us by
joining our Gareth Michaelcommunity.
Here are a few of the thingsyou're going to get.
You'll get exclusive real-timeaccess to live recording and
events.
Advance access to each newepisode.
The opportunity to askquestions directly of Gareth and
I.
(44:04):
Input into what topics we coverin the show.
Access to exclusive content notavailable anywhere else.
To learn more about ourcommunity, please go to
wwwgarethmichaelcom.
Thanks again, and I hope youguys are having a lovely week.
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