February 24, 2025 • 40 mins
In this episode of the Practical Spirituality Podcast, Gareth and Kim explore the delicate balance between despair and hope. Through candid conversations, they look at what happens when a person hits low points, and examine how these moments can trigger spiritual awakenings and personal growth. Sharing personal stories and reflections, the discussion assesses how hope changes with time and according to each individual.
From youthful optimism to the tempered resilience of adulthood, the hosts consider how life’s ups and downs reshape one’s understanding of hope. They also address societal conditioning and personal expectations, emphasizing that each individual’s personal challenges are unique, and facing them can lead to personal growth and increased self-awareness.
The hosts discuss a wide range of other topics, including unpredictable life paths, spiritual contracts, and the transformative power of acceptance. They highlight the tension between clinging to an idealized world and confronting challenging realities, and they share stories of people who discovered new opportunities later in life, underscoring that growth remains possible at any age. Emphasizing the importance of professional support, they remind listeners that hope can guide them out of setbacks and toward a more fulfilling, peaceful existence.
Become a Community Member at https://community.garethmichael.com/ to join our community and get early access to new episodes, answers to your personal questions and so much more.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Welcome back to the Practical Spirituality Podcast.
We are so excited to have youon this journey with us, where
we explore all elements of mind,body, emotions and soul through
the lens of everyday life.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Hello Kim.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Hello Gareth.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
How are you doing this morning?
Speaker 2 (00:32):
I'm okay.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Busy week.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Been a very busy week and I had late night last night
, so yeah, Good combination.
Yes, very good combination.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Well.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
I think this is going to be another interesting
episode for this week.
I actually had a question froma client not that long ago and
then I thought it'd be a verygood, interesting topic for the
podcast.
For this week's episode, we'regoing to be talking about hope
and why do we need it in life.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Hope, and why do we need it?
So that we don't exit early?
Speaker 1 (01:08):
you're familiar with that one once again.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
I think there's been a theme in this season where
we're talking about topics orthings in our day-to-day lives
that we all go through, butwe've never had the opportunity
or chance to take a step backand actually question our
individual view on these thingsthat we all go through and why
it is that way and how it doesimpact us all present day.
And I think it's only when weget the chance to question it,
(01:35):
reflect on it or hear someoneelse's version of it that it
makes us explore our own alittle bit more, and I think
that can be very healthy.
Explore our own a little bitmore, and I think that can be
very healthy.
And so for this week, I thinkexploring hope and how that
changes of when we have it andthen we all know when we don't
have it.
And I think, depending on whatarea of our lives we look back
(01:56):
on, you can see how thatfluctuates quite a bit and how
it influences even ourdecision-making and our
relationship with other people,with ourselves and with our
relationship with mind, body,emotions.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
And so it covers a lot of ground.
That's my point.
That's a lot of ground, yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
So I think to dive into it.
If you were to ask me myrelationship with hope or when I
became aware of what that meantfor me, I would say is that
when I was in a really downplace in my life, right before I
met Michael, and so what we'doften talk about in even season
one, what I would define was aspiritual awakening for me,
which to me is an understandingof myself, which then led to
(02:38):
meeting Michael.
That was part of my journey.
But if I was to look back ofthat combination of that formula
that happened to me because Ididn't have any hope left, so to
speak.
I was actually at rock bottomand something needed to change.
So prior to that, I neverreally questioned hope or what
that meant.
(02:58):
And of course, everyone hopesthat certain things in life are
going to fall into place andthat things are going to resolve
themselves, or hope that thesun's going to come out, and you
can apply it to so manydifferent areas of where we
might condition elements of life.
But I think when it hits you inmind, body, emotions and when
you lose hope and any of us hitrock bottom, it is a start of a
(03:19):
new chapter of some kind thatreally can reset any of us as we
go through life and changes ourdirection of where we thought
it was going to go versus how itactually where it ends up
bringing us.
So, for me, what comes to mindwhen I was even thinking about
hope was that I didn't have alot of hope at that particular
time in my life, and when I metMichael, it really changed my
(03:39):
understanding of my relationshipwith hope meaning suddenly, as
I had access to Michael, I wasable to understand why I lost
all the hope that I had up untilthat point.
So what I mean by that and thisis where I think you're
definitely going to jump in isthat if you actually start to
question the events of whatbring us to that space of where
(04:02):
we lose hope, you could argue aquestion that, when we don't
understand the events that we'vebeen through, that space of
where we lose hope, you couldargue a question that when we
don't understand the events thatwe've been through in this life
, if we're running a lot oftrauma for not good
communicators never been taughthow to communicate, our mind is
full, our emotions are heavy andwe're still expected to go
through life and push on as ifnothing's happened.
You can see how it's very hardto have hope in this life when
our logical mind doesn'tunderstand a lot of these events
(04:24):
and we're not able to processemotions.
And if there's things going on,physically it can weigh you
down.
So it's only when I have accessto Michael and this is only my
journey, of course in thatmoment where I was actually able
to start piecing all of thesedifferent events together and my
logical mind was able to get anunderstanding and I was able to
start processing my emotions,that my hope in this life for me
(04:46):
started to be restored.
So that's where my relationshipwith that.
If I look back all those yearsago, that was a starting point
of a very different chapter withhope within myself.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Interesting, very interesting Listening to it and
I'm thinking the very firstthing.
If I'm being very honest, whatcomes to mind is did I just miss
the boat or what's the problemhere?
Because I've had several ofthose events, as you know where.
I've reached that rock bottom, Ithink, for me.
(05:19):
I go.
I had a whole lot more hopewhen I was younger, after those
rock bottom events and I guess,as you said, because I didn't
understand the events that werewas going on or why they needed
to happen, is one of the reasonsI kept being brought, you know
for lack of a better way ofsaying it to my knees, um, and I
(05:41):
think that's.
It feels like that's kind of aharsh thing to have to go
through just to get hope.
But you know, in hindsight, asI sit here and think about it, I
go, no matter how many timesthose events had to happen.
One of the key things that comesout of it is I look at the
world in a completely differentway than most people do you.
(06:04):
You know, like I was saying, Ihad a late night.
Last night I went to listen tosomebody, I went to listen to an
author, and you know it's aweird feeling when you go to
listen to an author and there'sjust nothing new in it for you,
because you've already exploredevery aspect of what they're
talking about.
And so, from that point of view, I go.
Yep, I can see why hope isnecessary.
(06:26):
I can see why people need to gothrough what they go through.
I just don't particularlyunderstand why does it have to
get to be the place of rockbottom and why does it have to
be rock bottom so many timesbefore we feel that sense of
hope?
Does that make sense?
Speaker 3 (06:41):
It does make sense and I think there's different.
Like anything we talk about,there's a scale of one to 10 on
what we're brought on of thatjourney of one being I have no
hope and 10 being I have lots ofhope and there's a different
scale on that depending on whatwe're going through.
And I think when certain partsof us are triggered going
throughout life, or we don'twant to have to do certain
things or we want to bury ourhead in the sand, then you can
(07:03):
see how life continues to takeaway hope more and more until we
start addressing things that weoften don't know how to address
, as we both have talked about.
Often it's not our individualfault, but we can all get very
creative in how we like to hideon a subconscious level, and I
think it's that when you takeaway hope, when we hit that rock
bottom, it does force us tohave to start questioning things
in order to receive that growth.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
I remember living in my little naive bubble.
I do remember that, you knowand while there was a lot of bad
things that were happening tome at the time and I was
completely oblivious to it, Ifelt like I had more hope.
Then I mean, I'm not and I knowI'm sounding a bit negative
here it's not that I don't havehope.
Like, I look at hope in acompletely different way now
than how.
I did for so many years of mylife, and so we're talking about
(07:53):
it causes me to reflect backand I go yeah, I kind of miss
that little bubble where theworld was my oyster and anything
could happen.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
But, I think that's what's interesting about this
conversation, because it is auniversal experience, because we
all had that naivety, we allhad that hope and it all got
taken away from us, and that'sexactly what we're talking about
.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
So we should really call it why hope gets ripped
away so you can find it againthat what you're saying yeah, it
feels like I keep putting itdown and I can't.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
I can't remember where I put it.
I know it's in this room,somewhere hope is present, but I
just can't put my hand on itright now that's funny.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
Yes, okay, now I understand but I think when
you're on the journey and, asyou said, and you have studied
yourself in so many ways andcontinue to and read so much
material it's that you begin torealize that when those
emotional signals are eitherstrong or minimal or taken away.
(08:58):
it's to do with growth orquestioning that has to be done
about your journey and yourselfand I know that's been the theme
of this podcast we're doingtogether is that, no matter what
happens in life, it alwaysbrings you back to self and for
something to explore that isunique to you.
So this is why, when it comesto hope, there's similarities in
all of our lives and when it'sthere and when it's, so to speak
(09:20):
, taken away.
But I think, is that we neverreally questioned it enough to
go okay, what role is thisplaying in my life currently?
Where is it on that scale in mylife, and what is that trying
to teach me or show me, orwhat's even my conditioning with
it at times?
So that's why I just thought itwas a very interesting
(09:41):
conversation for us to have.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Well, it is an interesting conversation because
I think once people Well, it isan interesting conversation
because I think once people feelhope they definitely don't go
in and question it.
No, they just go.
Oh, okay, so maybe it's goingto get better.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Same with all the positive emotions.
Why would you question it whenyou're feeling it?
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Right, exactly, exactly.
So I just think it's such aninteresting thing because if I
were to be honest with you andlook back on all of the times
that that has happened to me,because there's been many, and I
think that's what's animportant point to make, as much
as it sounds like a brokenrecord.
(10:20):
I think there are going to bemany times in life where it
feels like hope is taken away.
But it's not that it's takenaway.
It's that we lose hope becauseof whatever we're dealing with
at the time, whatever storywe're telling ourselves,
whatever place we're stuck, andso many times.
For me, like you said aboutwhen Michael appeared in your
life, hope has alwaysrepresented, if I look at it in
(10:44):
hindsight, as uh okay, you'vedwelt in your shit long enough,
it's time to get yeah, rightit's like a little nudge.
Okay, you know you've beensitting in this for a while now.
You know you've, you'veexamined it to death in my book
is what I would say.
You know, because when thingsaren't going well and you're in
(11:07):
it, it feels so deep and itfeels so dark and it feels like
it's never going to end.
Like and I'm not saying that'sthe same every time you lose
hope, but for a lot of times forme, when I got to that rock
bottom place that you weretalking about, you know, anybody
that's experienced that knowsthat feeling.
And when you're in it, youdon't realize how deeply you're
(11:28):
in it until you get that sparkof hope.
And you get that spark of hopeand you go, oh okay, maybe,
maybe, and it is almost like aperspective shift in that moment
.
I'm not sure how many peopletake long enough to examine what
happens at that crisis point,where they're at crisis and then
(11:51):
hope enters.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
I think, even looking back on my life, as you've
discussed many times in thispodcast about your life we don't
know what we don't know, andit's not only that none of us
have been given the opportunityto explore it, but for me at
that time, when I had Michaelcome into my life and he had
given me these differentunderstandings that we've talked
about in this podcast manytimes about there is answers and
reasons out there and you justhave to go out there and explore
(12:26):
it and be willing to go there.
But there is a reason behind itthat gives me a lot of hope and
it instantly gives me relief ofokay, I'm just not going to be
expected to carry this weightaround for the rest of my life
and continue adding to it, orthat is always going to be a
mystery in life of why thesethings occurred.
For me, it was like thatrestored a lot of hope within
(12:47):
myself.
But it's that, if we look at it, that there's eight billion
people on the planet and there'sbeen a lot of people that have
come here before us and there'sonly a finite amount of human
experiences, so to speak.
Yes, each are unique to eachindividual, but it's that we've
just never been given theresources, or even none of us, a
lot of us didn't even know itwas possible to go explore, to
(13:08):
release a lot of these elementsof us.
So suddenly, when you couldargue, some of these most basic
things were starting to beexplained to me with the actual
answers that made those ahamoments click in my head or
release those emotions.
It restored a lot of hope.
But for a, a lot of individualsthey're not given that
opportunity to even know thatrestoring hope is even an option
(13:30):
, because life is so heavy andthey only are trying to get
through the day or those littlemoments during a given day that
bring them happiness, maybeseeing their kids interacting
with people they love.
You know there is momentsduring a given day, but for the
most part, as you and I bothremember, when there's that
weight of the world on top ofyou, it's very hard to bring
(13:51):
your head above the water.
Yeah it is, do you?
Speaker 2 (13:54):
know that feeling I'm talking about.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Yeah, I'm a little bit familiar with that.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
I'm a little bit familiar with that feeling and
so I was listening to you talkand I go yeah, but again, like
my yeah, but again.
You had this experience at arelatively young age and it was
a massive experience where mostof us don't get to go and have
that, and so we get that littlebit of help and then we chug
(14:19):
into the next gear and get goingagain.
We, you know, chug into the nextgear and get going again, and
whether we've explored it or not, it definitely is a relief to
get out of that place and crisis.
I think, had I known that itwas going to be ripped away
again and again and again andagain, I don't know if I would
have relied on it so muchbecause I wasn't given that
(14:42):
meaning and so many peoplearen't given the meaning as to
why it has to happen.
So in that case, you know asit's, as you hit a rock bottom,
say, for the third or the fourthtime or however many times
somebody hits a rock bottom, Iguess the real question is, Like
you said, as soon as hopeappears, you certainly aren't
(15:04):
going to hang around and try andexplore it, Because you're just
so relieved that something hasshifted.
And I guess the other thing ishow do we find that hope when
we're at that rock bottom?
I mean, I think that's a bigquestion for a lot of people
(15:25):
think that's a big question fora lot of people.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
When we hit that rock bottom, a lot of decisions are
actually made for us in theareas that I want to say.
It causes us to have to breakopen in ways in which we didn't
know we were capable of.
And I think, depending on whichrock bottom you hit, each rock
bottom is quite different.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
But it forced us open .
Listen, I'm really sorrylisteners, we have to talk about
it like this because Listen,I'm really sorry listeners, we
have to talk about it like thisbecause, you know, if I had been
listening to this podcast in my20s and heard that I was going
to have multiple rock bottoms,I'd go these two are nuts.
There's a rock bottom and thenthere's a deeper rock bottom and
then there is a basement.
(15:59):
But it just depends ondifferent people.
I know lots of people whohaven't had to hit as many rock
bottoms as me, and so that isone of the reasons why I used to
say maybe I was on the slow busor I had to bang my head
against the wall.
Yeah, I think that's becausethere was a lot of fight in me
and not a lot of people havethat same sort of experience.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
This is what I want to add to what you just said
there.
People have that same sort ofexperience.
This is what I want to add towhat you just said there.
It's that it's because of a lotof the conditioning we've all
been brought up in verydifferent ways that if I often
say if we had been taught thisfrom day dot, that we were going
to hit 400 rock bottoms in thislifetime, it wouldn't be a nice
experience, but it wouldn't besuch a mental, emotional fight
every time we're there becauseit feels like we're doing
something wrong or thisshouldn't be happening, or you
(16:45):
know, it's that fight that youjust mentioned there that makes
the experience a hundred timesharder and that's what actually
makes it harder to actuallyunderstand the meaning to go get
help, to get the recovery.
But, as you said, there's somany years where we spend
banging our head against thewall, but that doesn't mean that
we're getting help while we'rebanging our head against the
(17:06):
wall.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
We're just hoping it's like anything.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
We avoid going to the doctor at times because you
just hope it gets better itself,or you're just hoping that
sometimes the problem goes away.
But in this life, when it comesto certain experiences that
have individual interest andawakenings for any of us in mind
body emotions so they don't goaway Rock bottom keeps appearing
in its own way for us to beable to grow and to get the
(17:30):
message.
Does that mean that we enjoy itor that we want it to happen?
But I think part of the pointof this conversation is that
whether we want it to be thatway or not doesn't stop it from
actually occurring that way.
But for every time we have hitrock bottom, it has given us a
new understanding of ourselves,and I know that's what you're
saying also.
It's hard to argue otherwise.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
It's really hard to argue otherwise, you know,
because what is the alternative?
Denial.
And so you know, I wish, and Ican say this with all honesty I
wish there were times in my lifeI could have stayed in denial.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
And.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Lord knows.
I have tried many times.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Michael can confirm.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
But having said that, you know there are a lot of
people that do, like myself,confuse denial with hope.
I just I don't want to look atthis.
It's too, you know, it's in thetoo hard basket and so I'm just
going to pretend it's nothappening and move on with life.
And you know, this goes also toshow the complexity of my
(18:43):
thinking at times, show thecomplexity of my thinking at
times.
I just don't know if I thought,oh, I'm just going to ignore it
and it'll go away.
I don't think I ever thoughtthat.
I think what I thought for somany times was well, nobody else
seems to have this problem.
So maybe if I just do whatthey're doing, then I won't have
this problem anymore.
(19:04):
Maybe this is a me problem, notjust necessarily a life problem
.
And so that was my thinking alot of the times until I
couldn't deny it anymore.
And that is a hard thing for alot of people, because the way
that we're brought up, some ofthe things that we're taught,
some of the impressions that wewere given at a very young age,
(19:25):
we think life is supposed to bea certain way and then when life
happens and it's not that way,that's a big adjustment in
itself.
The common joke we hear all thetime.
You hear all these kids thatare 11, 12, 13 going into their
teenage years and they just wantto be an adult.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
They get to be an adult.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
They're like oh, this adulting thing, yeah, highly
overrated, and that's a primeexample of it.
Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (20:04):
Let's take a step back from this week's episode
and share with everyone whatwe've been up to behind the
scenes.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
We're really excited to be able to finally offer the
Gareth Michael community to eachof you.
The community offers a range ofbenefits, including access to
our live events, weekly podcastepisodes, articles,
self-checking questions, as wellas a community of individuals
you can connect with andinteract with along the way.
It's designed to offer yousupport, guidance and a safe
(20:33):
space on a day-to-day basis.
We'd love to have you join ourglobal community of like-minded
individuals.
That website address, again, iswwwgarethmichaelcom.
Now let's get back to thatepisode, shall we?
Speaker 3 (20:51):
As we go through life , the experiences that we go
through continue to redefine alot of these things that we had
in our childhood, ourunderstandings, because how can
it not?
It not?
But I think it's that whatgives you hope when you were 15
or 16 versus what gives you hope40, 50 years later.
It's completely different, bothcorrect for where you were at
that time in your life with theunderstandings that you had.
(21:12):
But it takes a lot, and to gothrough a lot, for that
adjustment to occur, as you'resaying.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
That is very, very true, and so I think when we
talk about that, then that's notto discount any of the versions
of hope that we felt.
You know, you brought up thistopic earlier and the first
image that showed up in my mindwas me being in Seattle.
I think I was what 18, if I was18.
(21:41):
And I remember walking down thestreet and feeling like I could
do anything.
I could do anything that Ichose to do.
And when I look back on thatnow it's like wow, okay, that's
a naivety for you.
I mean, I could do anything.
(22:03):
I just didn't know what lifehad in store for me.
But when I think of that image,that was probably one of the
most carefree moments in my life, because I truthfully believed
I could do anything.
Do I still believe that today?
I do believe I have thecapability to do anything.
Whether that's going to pan outor not is a completely
(22:26):
different story.
Does that make sense?
So I haven't lost that belief.
But now I know that I have togo through certain experiences,
that I have to go through.
Certain experiences are goingto be happening to me, for me to
learn and grow, and it's like Ialso had someone tell me when I
was.
(22:46):
I probably was about 27 whensomeone said to me oh, you're
going to be a teacher.
Honestly, that concept was soforeign to me at the time I spit
my tea out, laughing.
I was like that's a real goodjoke.
You're like.
That was never in myconsciousness, and so if you had
(23:07):
told me I'd be sitting heredoing what I'm doing today, it
just wouldn't.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
And so that is why we have to hit the, because I
really want to give reason towhy we have to hit the rock
bottom, because it's starting tosound a bit.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
You know I'm going to have to hit that many of them,
yeah depressive.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
But I truthfully wouldn't believe it.
And I remember when this womantold me this all those years ago
and I just I used to laughabout it at social events
sometimes because I was likeit's such a joke.
Speaker 3 (23:41):
And now I sit here and go, oh okay, maybe it wasn't
such a joke and now I sit hereand go oh okay, maybe it wasn't
such a joke, you know, because Ido agree with what you're
saying of why we have toelaborate a little more on why
hitting rock bottom is important, because, as we were talking
about briefly a few minutes ago,it's the fact that we weren't
taught that this is a part ofthe reality of life is why we
(24:02):
fight it so much, or why it isdepressive, because that naivety
from such a young age, or evenif we were exposed to people who
had hit rock bottom a lot oftimes throughout life, when
you're so young and naive, whatruns through your mind is that
for me, it's going to bedifferent, life's going to be
different, and it is in a lot ofways.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
But when it comes to these little rock bottoms we're
talking about, they're present.
Speaker 3 (24:24):
So when we're talking about rock bottom, it's like
what that teacher philosophersaid, rumi the wound is the
place where the light enters you, and I think it's a very
simplistic quote that I'm sureeveryone has heard before.
But I think sometimes when youhit rock bottom, it causes
cracks in a lot of thefoundations that have already
been there that we didn't want'twant to take ownership of.
(24:46):
That, as you mentioned, wecould be in denial about.
But it's that.
That is, the foundations thatwe have to repair and to
understand.
That allows us to grow and todissolve and let go of a lot of
things that we didn't even knowwas physically, humanly possible
.
So I think it's that some weboth know that hitting rock
bottom is not often a choice,because if it's a choice all of
(25:08):
us wouldn't hit us.
It's kind of the point, verytrue, life is often making these
decisions for us and when thathappens, that's where it's time
for a new chapter of some kindor all the lessons and learnings
from that part of our livescoming to a close.
So it doesn't mean that we'reever going to be excited about
that or going to enjoy theprocess, but it happens with or
(25:33):
without our permission andstrangely, after all these years
and working with a lot ofpeople and looking at my own
life as time goes on, it givesme more and more comfort.
I have a level of acceptancewith that now that I didn't have
all those years ago, but that'sbecause of exposure and that
lovely word you love so muchacceptance that life is going to
(25:56):
present that Because, if youlook at the facts, it has always
done that.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
Well, I think, one of the other things that gets
confusing.
I agree, I completely agree, Icompletely agree.
And again, maybe I had to hitall the rock bottoms because I
just wouldn't get to that placeof acceptance.
I was just like, no, I'm notgoing to accept that.
Because I didn't want, I think,if I'm very honest, I didn't
want the picture of the worldthat I wanted to hold, picture
(26:27):
of the world that I wanted tohold, that I felt like I needed
to hold, to be shattered.
And I think that was importantfor me and it's not as important
for other people, because a lotof people don't mind the world
being shattered and building anew one, and that's fine.
But because of my backgroundand some of the things that had
happened to me, my backgroundand some of the things that had
happened to me, I was holdingonto this, you know, idea of the
(26:52):
world.
That was my own version of hope,if I'm being really realistic
about it, and I just wasn'twilling to let go of that for
the reality of what life was.
And I and I'm not saying thatlife, you know, sounds very
cynical, but I'm not saying that, I'm just know sounds very
cynical, but I'm not saying that, I'm just saying my idea of
life was so far from reality andI had picked up on something
(27:15):
and held on to it for a longtime.
So I think, if I get reallyhonest, you know, when you're
trying to balance that idea ofhope and the rock bottoms and
you've got the two of them therehow do you find that balance of
, you know, between, say, thehope and and being over
(27:36):
optimistic or being completelydespondent because of the rock
bottoms?
And I think one of the keythings, if I look back on life,
I go which no one taught useither.
I always had thought when I getto a certain point, when I get
to a certain point of awareness,when I get to a certain point
(27:56):
of maturity, when I get to acertain point of my career, when
I get to a certain point oflife, I'm going to have this
understanding, and so then I'mgoing to glide, that life is
just going to glide.
No one taught me that I neededto turn around and find out why
I didn't feel like that now, ineach moment, like that thing
(28:20):
that I wanted to get to.
No one taught me that I couldhave it here If I would just
stop and start to explore myselfand explore what and again,
different levels of it atdifferent stages of your life,
but it's still nonetheless.
No one ever says, you know what?
One of the things you want tostart looking at if you're
(28:41):
hitting a few rock bottoms iswhat is it about what you want
to be, feel, not do, but be andfeel that you're not having
right now.
And how can you explore thatmind, body and soul in a
different way and emotions in adifferent way?
I can't believe I left outemotions, because it's the
(29:02):
number one reason we don't haveit, because we're running away
from those emotions.
But you hear what I'm trying tosay.
I'm trying to say, had I knownthat, that the ideal that I was
searching for outside of myselfwas really supposed to be, let
me go find that inside of myselffirst.
That would have probablybalanced out a few of those rock
(29:23):
bottoms a little bit more.
Maybe, maybe not, who knows.
I've lived the experience Ihave, but I don't think if we
could just learn at a youngerage which I think so many people
are today that let's go inward,let's ask what it is that I
think is missing.
Speaker 3 (29:43):
If we're looking at the concept of spiritual
contracts in some ways, there'sso many of those years where,
when we had that naivety, whenwe had that hope because I don't
even want to call it false hope, because it wasn't false back
then, it was real we had anaivety and hope for the world
that things were going to bedifferent.
So, when we go through life andwe have that naivety and we have
(30:03):
that naivety, we have hope, andhope is taken away and we hit
those rock bottoms and we comebouncing back.
They all morph us into thepeople that we need to be
throughout this life, dependingon the experiences we're meant
to have and I think this is whyit goes back to certain the
concept of spiritual contractsthings unfold exactly as they're
meant to and we explore them aswe're allowed to and as we're
meant to, because we go throughthese experiences and after a
(30:23):
certain point, if it's a part ofour journey, then we start
unpacking all of that tounderstand self.
Because if we have had so manyof these experiences that have
been traumatic or negative, Iguarantee you, in some way
life's going to keep bringing usthose breaking points because
it's going to say to us maybeit's time to start exploring
this, maybe it's time to startasking why, in present day, as
you were saying, and we can onlybe in denial or avoid that
(30:47):
reality for so long, but that'swhy the breaking points are
necessary.
So it's only when you broughtto so many of them and sometimes
you're brought kicking andscreaming, as you could often
say, two different individuals,to start exploring it, that you
can start to build that wholedifferent foundation and
relationship with self and startunderstanding the conditioning
(31:07):
that we've put on life, or whywe view the world the way we do
or why we fight the things thatwe fight.
It's not saying any that isright or wrong as we often talk
about.
It's just that's too simplisticto view it that way, because
it's not saying anything we wentthrough is wrong.
It's the thing.
It's just currentlymisunderstood present day of why
it needed to be that way.
But that's why we have to havethat compassion for ourselves
(31:28):
and that willingness to notjudge and to understand.
Okay, if I'm hitting this rockbottom, there is a reason and
purpose behind it today to takeme in the direction I need to go
to, from moving forward.
But of course it's that at thestart of the journey we keep
hitting these rock bottoms.
Is it that easy to accept that?
No, Kim younger Kim would haveturned this podcast off long ago
(31:53):
.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
I'd have been sound asleep, sound asleep.
And the reason for that is isbecause I really, you know, I
really didn't want to believethat life was going to be a life
full of challenges.
But I didn't understand.
The challenges are what makeyou grow.
(32:16):
You know, like, I went to thisevent last night and I was
listening to this person andhe's actually almost 82 years of
age and I was quite shockedbecause I didn't realize that's
how old this person was.
And he made a comment aboutwhere he said he started his
first book at 55.
And the reason that that hadhappened is because and I love
(32:39):
the way he said it because I hadto go through so much to get to
a point before I started toreally look at me to understand
why these things were happening.
And you know, in that momentwhat did I feel?
Three guesses, oh, okay, Ihaven't totally lost the
(33:00):
opportunity yet.
A little bit of hope there.
Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (33:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
And I found that interesting, especially since
we're talking about this today,because so many times life tells
us if you haven't donesomething by X, that's it, it's
over with.
And so people lose that hopebecause they buy into the story.
But, just like I was sayingbefore, I had the ideal of what
(33:26):
life was supposed to be, and sodoes everybody else, and that
changes, and it's okay to haveit, because it's only through
having that and then looking atit with the challenges that are
brought up that we do grow.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
You were saying I think there's so many of those
sayings throughout life thatwe've all heard is that when the
student is ready, the teacherappears.
It's like, yeah, normally theteacher appears when you've hit
rock bottom and you actuallyneed a teacher, and then a
certain book gets placed intoyour hand or a certain thing
gets advertised, you get a polltowards or you.
I think there's so manyexamples of when we've been in
(34:05):
those situations and lifepresents us with options that
weren't there before and that wewouldn't have been ready to
look at, wouldn't have beenready to actually get involved
in or to say yes to.
So it's easy to say that,looking back, oh, it seems so
obvious.
Or in hindsight, et cetera, etcetera.
But I'm saying, even for Timand I sitting here now, is there
(34:28):
most likely a few rock bottomsahead for both of us?
Speaker 1 (34:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
Oh yeah, and I'm saying it helps when we have
this awareness now, and that'swhat we were talking about
earlier.
I wish we all had thisawareness since we were four.
It would make it a little biteasier.
It doesn't mean to make it moreenjoyable two very different
things.
But I'm saying we now have anunderstanding of how to approach
rock bottom and to question itand our supports, and that makes
(34:58):
a huge difference, that we'renot fighting it as much.
But do we enjoy it?
Speaker 2 (35:04):
no, if there are people out there that can't seem
to find the hope because itfeels like the rock bottom never
disappears.
I think one of the things youknow.
Of course we want to remindeverybody it's very important to
get professional help but Yep.
But I think one of the mainthings to remember is I never
(35:26):
saw hope coming when I was deepin it, you know it was usually
when I got to a point.
A certain point hope appeared.
And, like you said, hope isthat crack of light in the wound
.
And at that point where lightenters and I agree with that so
wholeheartedly because it's likeit feels like you're banging
(35:48):
your head against the wall.
It feels like you're nevergoing to get out of it.
It feels like you've been hereforever.
And then, for whatever reason,when that hope enters, you're
like oh, oh, wait, oh okay, andI'm sure lots of people have had
that experience and not reallyunderstood.
That's the moment that hopestarted to appear and the light
(36:11):
did come in and you can seethings a little bit differently.
There's a shift in thatperception of what was actually
happening.
But not to lose hope if you'vebeen going through a rock bottom
is my point, because the hopewill appear.
But not to lose hope if you'vebeen going through a rock bottom
is my point, because the hopewill appear.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
But it's important, as you're saying, logically,
understand why it's not there atthis time in your life, when we
lose all hope or we feel thatwe've hit a rock bottom.
That's the energy, or yourenergy or life's way of saying
to you you've outgrown this partof your life and now it's time
to go explore in a logical wayand to receive that help from a
professional that you can trust.
(36:47):
So it's like you know, you'renot still wearing the same
clothes you did when you were 12or 14.
I'm saying you outgrew that,you went to the shops and bought
new clothes.
You, you knew you were growing,you changed.
But, as we talked about, if wedon't know that the shops exist
and different size clothesexists and that we can grow and
change in that way, of courseit's going to be a longer
(37:07):
journey, we're going to beatourselves up and we're not going
to have the compassion, and sothere's so much about this,
logically, that I wish we allhad been taught that when we're
hitting that rock bottom of whatit even logically represents
and the journey, we have to goon through it emotionally and
physically and spiritually withothers, with support, with
people that we trust, and Ithink that's what makes the rock
bottoms you and I go throughmoving forward very different to
(37:30):
the to the ones 20 years agoabsolutely, and I think the
thing that you left out in thereis we are not being punished,
we are so not well well, youknow, life could be the
punishment, but I mean.
Speaker 1 (37:46):
Let that go.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
Acceptance.
You know what I'm trying to say.
A lot of people believe whenthey hit these rough spots, or
rock bottoms, or whatever itappears for each person.
You know I have quite a fewpeople say to me you know, am I
being punished for the sins ofmy past?
I'm like, well, no, that's nothow it works.
(38:09):
You know, and I think that is aconcept that is important to
remember when you're goingthrough this it is not a
punishment.
If you could look at it like yousaid, I'm hitting a growth
spurt.
I've outgrown the dynamics ofwhere I'm at, and all growth is
painful.
That's why kids have growingpains.
So if you can just shift thatperspective from punishment to a
(38:35):
growth spurt, then you're goingto look at it completely
differently.
It's an important point to bemaking.
I think so, even though you'rethe one that has said it so many
times and I've laughed andgiggled I do think one of the
things we want to keep in mindis there is an acceptance, when
(38:55):
it comes to all of these things,that not one is better than the
other.
The rock bottom isn't worsethan the hope, the hope isn't
better than the rock bottom.
They go hand in hand and youcan't have one without the other
, and that is basically one ofthe things that I bang my head
against the wall trying to getto that place of acceptance.
(39:18):
So I think that is one of thekey things accepting that life
is here to support our growth.
And the more that we can reallystart to acknowledge that these
things that do show up whetherwe find them positive or
negative, whichever way we lookat them, it is still just
supporting our growth and themore we can accept that and be
(39:40):
present through that process, Ithink the transition into the
next phase of that part of yourlife becomes a lot easier.
Speaker 3 (39:49):
I couldn't have said it better myself.
Speaker 2 (39:55):
Thanks so much for listening.
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Thanks again, and I hope youguys are having a lovely week.
Welcome back to the Practical Spirituality Podcast.
We are so excited to have youon this journey with us, where
we explore all elements of mind,body, emotions and soul through
the lens of everyday life.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Hello Kim.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Hello Gareth.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
How are you doing this morning?
Speaker 2 (00:32):
I'm okay.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Busy week.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Been a very busy week and I had late night last night
, so yeah, Good combination.
Yes, very good combination.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Well.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
I think this is going to be another interesting
episode for this week.
I actually had a question froma client not that long ago and
then I thought it'd be a verygood, interesting topic for the
podcast.
For this week's episode, we'regoing to be talking about hope
and why do we need it in life.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Hope, and why do we need it?
So that we don't exit early?
Speaker 1 (01:08):
you're familiar with that one once again.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
I think there's been a theme in this season where
we're talking about topics orthings in our day-to-day lives
that we all go through, butwe've never had the opportunity
or chance to take a step backand actually question our
individual view on these thingsthat we all go through and why
it is that way and how it doesimpact us all present day.
And I think it's only when weget the chance to question it,
(01:35):
reflect on it or hear someoneelse's version of it that it
makes us explore our own alittle bit more, and I think
that can be very healthy.
Explore our own a little bitmore, and I think that can be
very healthy.
And so for this week, I thinkexploring hope and how that
changes of when we have it andthen we all know when we don't
have it.
And I think, depending on whatarea of our lives we look back
(01:56):
on, you can see how thatfluctuates quite a bit and how
it influences even ourdecision-making and our
relationship with other people,with ourselves and with our
relationship with mind, body,emotions.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
And so it covers a lot of ground.
That's my point.
That's a lot of ground, yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
So I think to dive into it.
If you were to ask me myrelationship with hope or when I
became aware of what that meantfor me, I would say is that
when I was in a really downplace in my life, right before I
met Michael, and so what we'doften talk about in even season
one, what I would define was aspiritual awakening for me,
which to me is an understandingof myself, which then led to
(02:38):
meeting Michael.
That was part of my journey.
But if I was to look back ofthat combination of that formula
that happened to me because Ididn't have any hope left, so to
speak.
I was actually at rock bottomand something needed to change.
So prior to that, I neverreally questioned hope or what
that meant.
(02:58):
And of course, everyone hopesthat certain things in life are
going to fall into place andthat things are going to resolve
themselves, or hope that thesun's going to come out, and you
can apply it to so manydifferent areas of where we
might condition elements of life.
But I think when it hits you inmind, body, emotions and when
you lose hope and any of us hitrock bottom, it is a start of a
(03:19):
new chapter of some kind thatreally can reset any of us as we
go through life and changes ourdirection of where we thought
it was going to go versus how itactually where it ends up
bringing us.
So, for me, what comes to mindwhen I was even thinking about
hope was that I didn't have alot of hope at that particular
time in my life, and when I metMichael, it really changed my
(03:39):
understanding of my relationshipwith hope meaning suddenly, as
I had access to Michael, I wasable to understand why I lost
all the hope that I had up untilthat point.
So what I mean by that and thisis where I think you're
definitely going to jump in isthat if you actually start to
question the events of whatbring us to that space of where
(04:02):
we lose hope, you could argue aquestion that, when we don't
understand the events that we'vebeen through, that space of
where we lose hope, you couldargue a question that when we
don't understand the events thatwe've been through in this life
, if we're running a lot oftrauma for not good
communicators never been taughthow to communicate, our mind is
full, our emotions are heavy andwe're still expected to go
through life and push on as ifnothing's happened.
You can see how it's very hardto have hope in this life when
our logical mind doesn'tunderstand a lot of these events
(04:24):
and we're not able to processemotions.
And if there's things going on,physically it can weigh you
down.
So it's only when I have accessto Michael and this is only my
journey, of course in thatmoment where I was actually able
to start piecing all of thesedifferent events together and my
logical mind was able to get anunderstanding and I was able to
start processing my emotions,that my hope in this life for me
(04:46):
started to be restored.
So that's where my relationshipwith that.
If I look back all those yearsago, that was a starting point
of a very different chapter withhope within myself.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Interesting, very interesting Listening to it and
I'm thinking the very firstthing.
If I'm being very honest, whatcomes to mind is did I just miss
the boat or what's the problemhere?
Because I've had several ofthose events, as you know where.
I've reached that rock bottom, Ithink, for me.
(05:19):
I go.
I had a whole lot more hopewhen I was younger, after those
rock bottom events and I guess,as you said, because I didn't
understand the events that werewas going on or why they needed
to happen, is one of the reasonsI kept being brought, you know
for lack of a better way ofsaying it to my knees, um, and I
(05:41):
think that's.
It feels like that's kind of aharsh thing to have to go
through just to get hope.
But you know, in hindsight, asI sit here and think about it, I
go, no matter how many timesthose events had to happen.
One of the key things that comesout of it is I look at the
world in a completely differentway than most people do you.
(06:04):
You know, like I was saying, Ihad a late night.
Last night I went to listen tosomebody, I went to listen to an
author, and you know it's aweird feeling when you go to
listen to an author and there'sjust nothing new in it for you,
because you've already exploredevery aspect of what they're
talking about.
And so, from that point of view, I go.
Yep, I can see why hope isnecessary.
(06:26):
I can see why people need to gothrough what they go through.
I just don't particularlyunderstand why does it have to
get to be the place of rockbottom and why does it have to
be rock bottom so many timesbefore we feel that sense of
hope?
Does that make sense?
Speaker 3 (06:41):
It does make sense and I think there's different.
Like anything we talk about,there's a scale of one to 10 on
what we're brought on of thatjourney of one being I have no
hope and 10 being I have lots ofhope and there's a different
scale on that depending on whatwe're going through.
And I think when certain partsof us are triggered going
throughout life, or we don'twant to have to do certain
things or we want to bury ourhead in the sand, then you can
(07:03):
see how life continues to takeaway hope more and more until we
start addressing things that weoften don't know how to address
, as we both have talked about.
Often it's not our individualfault, but we can all get very
creative in how we like to hideon a subconscious level, and I
think it's that when you takeaway hope, when we hit that rock
bottom, it does force us tohave to start questioning things
in order to receive that growth.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
I remember living in my little naive bubble.
I do remember that, you knowand while there was a lot of bad
things that were happening tome at the time and I was
completely oblivious to it, Ifelt like I had more hope.
Then I mean, I'm not and I knowI'm sounding a bit negative
here it's not that I don't havehope.
Like, I look at hope in acompletely different way now
than how.
I did for so many years of mylife, and so we're talking about
(07:53):
it causes me to reflect backand I go yeah, I kind of miss
that little bubble where theworld was my oyster and anything
could happen.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
But, I think that's what's interesting about this
conversation, because it is auniversal experience, because we
all had that naivety, we allhad that hope and it all got
taken away from us, and that'sexactly what we're talking about
.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
So we should really call it why hope gets ripped
away so you can find it againthat what you're saying yeah, it
feels like I keep putting itdown and I can't.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
I can't remember where I put it.
I know it's in this room,somewhere hope is present, but I
just can't put my hand on itright now that's funny.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
Yes, okay, now I understand but I think when
you're on the journey and, asyou said, and you have studied
yourself in so many ways andcontinue to and read so much
material it's that you begin torealize that when those
emotional signals are eitherstrong or minimal or taken away.
(08:58):
it's to do with growth orquestioning that has to be done
about your journey and yourselfand I know that's been the theme
of this podcast we're doingtogether is that, no matter what
happens in life, it alwaysbrings you back to self and for
something to explore that isunique to you.
So this is why, when it comesto hope, there's similarities in
all of our lives and when it'sthere and when it's, so to speak
(09:20):
, taken away.
But I think, is that we neverreally questioned it enough to
go okay, what role is thisplaying in my life currently?
Where is it on that scale in mylife, and what is that trying
to teach me or show me, orwhat's even my conditioning with
it at times?
So that's why I just thought itwas a very interesting
(09:41):
conversation for us to have.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Well, it is an interesting conversation because
I think once people Well, it isan interesting conversation
because I think once people feelhope they definitely don't go
in and question it.
No, they just go.
Oh, okay, so maybe it's goingto get better.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Same with all the positive emotions.
Why would you question it whenyou're feeling it?
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Right, exactly, exactly.
So I just think it's such aninteresting thing because if I
were to be honest with you andlook back on all of the times
that that has happened to me,because there's been many, and I
think that's what's animportant point to make, as much
as it sounds like a brokenrecord.
(10:20):
I think there are going to bemany times in life where it
feels like hope is taken away.
But it's not that it's takenaway.
It's that we lose hope becauseof whatever we're dealing with
at the time, whatever storywe're telling ourselves,
whatever place we're stuck, andso many times.
For me, like you said aboutwhen Michael appeared in your
life, hope has alwaysrepresented, if I look at it in
(10:44):
hindsight, as uh okay, you'vedwelt in your shit long enough,
it's time to get yeah, rightit's like a little nudge.
Okay, you know you've beensitting in this for a while now.
You know you've, you'veexamined it to death in my book
is what I would say.
You know, because when thingsaren't going well and you're in
(11:07):
it, it feels so deep and itfeels so dark and it feels like
it's never going to end.
Like and I'm not saying that'sthe same every time you lose
hope, but for a lot of times forme, when I got to that rock
bottom place that you weretalking about, you know, anybody
that's experienced that knowsthat feeling.
And when you're in it, youdon't realize how deeply you're
(11:28):
in it until you get that sparkof hope.
And you get that spark of hopeand you go, oh okay, maybe,
maybe, and it is almost like aperspective shift in that moment
.
I'm not sure how many peopletake long enough to examine what
happens at that crisis point,where they're at crisis and then
(11:51):
hope enters.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
I think, even looking back on my life, as you've
discussed many times in thispodcast about your life we don't
know what we don't know, andit's not only that none of us
have been given the opportunityto explore it, but for me at
that time, when I had Michaelcome into my life and he had
given me these differentunderstandings that we've talked
about in this podcast manytimes about there is answers and
reasons out there and you justhave to go out there and explore
(12:26):
it and be willing to go there.
But there is a reason behind itthat gives me a lot of hope and
it instantly gives me relief ofokay, I'm just not going to be
expected to carry this weightaround for the rest of my life
and continue adding to it, orthat is always going to be a
mystery in life of why thesethings occurred.
For me, it was like thatrestored a lot of hope within
(12:47):
myself.
But it's that, if we look at it, that there's eight billion
people on the planet and there'sbeen a lot of people that have
come here before us and there'sonly a finite amount of human
experiences, so to speak.
Yes, each are unique to eachindividual, but it's that we've
just never been given theresources, or even none of us, a
lot of us didn't even know itwas possible to go explore, to
(13:08):
release a lot of these elementsof us.
So suddenly, when you couldargue, some of these most basic
things were starting to beexplained to me with the actual
answers that made those ahamoments click in my head or
release those emotions.
It restored a lot of hope.
But for a, a lot of individualsthey're not given that
opportunity to even know thatrestoring hope is even an option
(13:30):
, because life is so heavy andthey only are trying to get
through the day or those littlemoments during a given day that
bring them happiness, maybeseeing their kids interacting
with people they love.
You know there is momentsduring a given day, but for the
most part, as you and I bothremember, when there's that
weight of the world on top ofyou, it's very hard to bring
(13:51):
your head above the water.
Yeah it is, do you?
Speaker 2 (13:54):
know that feeling I'm talking about.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Yeah, I'm a little bit familiar with that.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
I'm a little bit familiar with that feeling and
so I was listening to you talkand I go yeah, but again, like
my yeah, but again.
You had this experience at arelatively young age and it was
a massive experience where mostof us don't get to go and have
that, and so we get that littlebit of help and then we chug
(14:19):
into the next gear and get goingagain.
We, you know, chug into the nextgear and get going again, and
whether we've explored it or not, it definitely is a relief to
get out of that place and crisis.
I think, had I known that itwas going to be ripped away
again and again and again andagain, I don't know if I would
have relied on it so muchbecause I wasn't given that
(14:42):
meaning and so many peoplearen't given the meaning as to
why it has to happen.
So in that case, you know asit's, as you hit a rock bottom,
say, for the third or the fourthtime or however many times
somebody hits a rock bottom, Iguess the real question is, Like
you said, as soon as hopeappears, you certainly aren't
(15:04):
going to hang around and try andexplore it, Because you're just
so relieved that something hasshifted.
And I guess the other thing ishow do we find that hope when
we're at that rock bottom?
I mean, I think that's a bigquestion for a lot of people
(15:25):
think that's a big question fora lot of people.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
When we hit that rock bottom, a lot of decisions are
actually made for us in theareas that I want to say.
It causes us to have to breakopen in ways in which we didn't
know we were capable of.
And I think, depending on whichrock bottom you hit, each rock
bottom is quite different.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
But it forced us open .
Listen, I'm really sorrylisteners, we have to talk about
it like this because Listen,I'm really sorry listeners, we
have to talk about it like thisbecause, you know, if I had been
listening to this podcast in my20s and heard that I was going
to have multiple rock bottoms,I'd go these two are nuts.
There's a rock bottom and thenthere's a deeper rock bottom and
then there is a basement.
(15:59):
But it just depends ondifferent people.
I know lots of people whohaven't had to hit as many rock
bottoms as me, and so that isone of the reasons why I used to
say maybe I was on the slow busor I had to bang my head
against the wall.
Yeah, I think that's becausethere was a lot of fight in me
and not a lot of people havethat same sort of experience.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
This is what I want to add to what you just said
there.
People have that same sort ofexperience.
This is what I want to add towhat you just said there.
It's that it's because of a lotof the conditioning we've all
been brought up in verydifferent ways that if I often
say if we had been taught thisfrom day dot, that we were going
to hit 400 rock bottoms in thislifetime, it wouldn't be a nice
experience, but it wouldn't besuch a mental, emotional fight
every time we're there becauseit feels like we're doing
something wrong or thisshouldn't be happening, or you
(16:45):
know, it's that fight that youjust mentioned there that makes
the experience a hundred timesharder and that's what actually
makes it harder to actuallyunderstand the meaning to go get
help, to get the recovery.
But, as you said, there's somany years where we spend
banging our head against thewall, but that doesn't mean that
we're getting help while we'rebanging our head against the
(17:06):
wall.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
We're just hoping it's like anything.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
We avoid going to the doctor at times because you
just hope it gets better itself,or you're just hoping that
sometimes the problem goes away.
But in this life, when it comesto certain experiences that
have individual interest andawakenings for any of us in mind
body emotions so they don't goaway Rock bottom keeps appearing
in its own way for us to beable to grow and to get the
(17:30):
message.
Does that mean that we enjoy itor that we want it to happen?
But I think part of the pointof this conversation is that
whether we want it to be thatway or not doesn't stop it from
actually occurring that way.
But for every time we have hitrock bottom, it has given us a
new understanding of ourselves,and I know that's what you're
saying also.
It's hard to argue otherwise.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
It's really hard to argue otherwise, you know,
because what is the alternative?
Denial.
And so you know, I wish, and Ican say this with all honesty I
wish there were times in my lifeI could have stayed in denial.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
And.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Lord knows.
I have tried many times.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Michael can confirm.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
But having said that, you know there are a lot of
people that do, like myself,confuse denial with hope.
I just I don't want to look atthis.
It's too, you know, it's in thetoo hard basket and so I'm just
going to pretend it's nothappening and move on with life.
And you know, this goes also toshow the complexity of my
(18:43):
thinking at times, show thecomplexity of my thinking at
times.
I just don't know if I thought,oh, I'm just going to ignore it
and it'll go away.
I don't think I ever thoughtthat.
I think what I thought for somany times was well, nobody else
seems to have this problem.
So maybe if I just do whatthey're doing, then I won't have
this problem anymore.
(19:04):
Maybe this is a me problem, notjust necessarily a life problem
.
And so that was my thinking alot of the times until I
couldn't deny it anymore.
And that is a hard thing for alot of people, because the way
that we're brought up, some ofthe things that we're taught,
some of the impressions that wewere given at a very young age,
(19:25):
we think life is supposed to bea certain way and then when life
happens and it's not that way,that's a big adjustment in
itself.
The common joke we hear all thetime.
You hear all these kids thatare 11, 12, 13 going into their
teenage years and they just wantto be an adult.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
They get to be an adult.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
They're like oh, this adulting thing, yeah, highly
overrated, and that's a primeexample of it.
Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (20:04):
Let's take a step back from this week's episode
and share with everyone whatwe've been up to behind the
scenes.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
We're really excited to be able to finally offer the
Gareth Michael community to eachof you.
The community offers a range ofbenefits, including access to
our live events, weekly podcastepisodes, articles,
self-checking questions, as wellas a community of individuals
you can connect with andinteract with along the way.
It's designed to offer yousupport, guidance and a safe
(20:33):
space on a day-to-day basis.
We'd love to have you join ourglobal community of like-minded
individuals.
That website address, again, iswwwgarethmichaelcom.
Now let's get back to thatepisode, shall we?
Speaker 3 (20:51):
As we go through life , the experiences that we go
through continue to redefine alot of these things that we had
in our childhood, ourunderstandings, because how can
it not?
It not?
But I think it's that whatgives you hope when you were 15
or 16 versus what gives you hope40, 50 years later.
It's completely different, bothcorrect for where you were at
that time in your life with theunderstandings that you had.
(21:12):
But it takes a lot, and to gothrough a lot, for that
adjustment to occur, as you'resaying.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
That is very, very true, and so I think when we
talk about that, then that's notto discount any of the versions
of hope that we felt.
You know, you brought up thistopic earlier and the first
image that showed up in my mindwas me being in Seattle.
I think I was what 18, if I was18.
(21:41):
And I remember walking down thestreet and feeling like I could
do anything.
I could do anything that Ichose to do.
And when I look back on thatnow it's like wow, okay, that's
a naivety for you.
I mean, I could do anything.
(22:03):
I just didn't know what lifehad in store for me.
But when I think of that image,that was probably one of the
most carefree moments in my life, because I truthfully believed
I could do anything.
Do I still believe that today?
I do believe I have thecapability to do anything.
Whether that's going to pan outor not is a completely
(22:26):
different story.
Does that make sense?
So I haven't lost that belief.
But now I know that I have togo through certain experiences,
that I have to go through.
Certain experiences are goingto be happening to me, for me to
learn and grow, and it's like Ialso had someone tell me when I
was.
(22:46):
I probably was about 27 whensomeone said to me oh, you're
going to be a teacher.
Honestly, that concept was soforeign to me at the time I spit
my tea out, laughing.
I was like that's a real goodjoke.
You're like.
That was never in myconsciousness, and so if you had
(23:07):
told me I'd be sitting heredoing what I'm doing today, it
just wouldn't.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
And so that is why we have to hit the, because I
really want to give reason towhy we have to hit the rock
bottom, because it's starting tosound a bit.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
You know I'm going to have to hit that many of them,
yeah depressive.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
But I truthfully wouldn't believe it.
And I remember when this womantold me this all those years ago
and I just I used to laughabout it at social events
sometimes because I was likeit's such a joke.
Speaker 3 (23:41):
And now I sit here and go, oh okay, maybe it wasn't
such a joke and now I sit hereand go oh okay, maybe it wasn't
such a joke, you know, because Ido agree with what you're
saying of why we have toelaborate a little more on why
hitting rock bottom is important, because, as we were talking
about briefly a few minutes ago,it's the fact that we weren't
taught that this is a part ofthe reality of life is why we
(24:02):
fight it so much, or why it isdepressive, because that naivety
from such a young age, or evenif we were exposed to people who
had hit rock bottom a lot oftimes throughout life, when
you're so young and naive, whatruns through your mind is that
for me, it's going to bedifferent, life's going to be
different, and it is in a lot ofways.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
But when it comes to these little rock bottoms we're
talking about, they're present.
Speaker 3 (24:24):
So when we're talking about rock bottom, it's like
what that teacher philosophersaid, rumi the wound is the
place where the light enters you, and I think it's a very
simplistic quote that I'm sureeveryone has heard before.
But I think sometimes when youhit rock bottom, it causes
cracks in a lot of thefoundations that have already
been there that we didn't want'twant to take ownership of.
(24:46):
That, as you mentioned, wecould be in denial about.
But it's that.
That is, the foundations thatwe have to repair and to
understand.
That allows us to grow and todissolve and let go of a lot of
things that we didn't even knowwas physically, humanly possible
.
So I think it's that some weboth know that hitting rock
bottom is not often a choice,because if it's a choice all of
(25:08):
us wouldn't hit us.
It's kind of the point, verytrue, life is often making these
decisions for us and when thathappens, that's where it's time
for a new chapter of some kindor all the lessons and learnings
from that part of our livescoming to a close.
So it doesn't mean that we'reever going to be excited about
that or going to enjoy theprocess, but it happens with or
(25:33):
without our permission andstrangely, after all these years
and working with a lot ofpeople and looking at my own
life as time goes on, it givesme more and more comfort.
I have a level of acceptancewith that now that I didn't have
all those years ago, but that'sbecause of exposure and that
lovely word you love so muchacceptance that life is going to
(25:56):
present that Because, if youlook at the facts, it has always
done that.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
Well, I think, one of the other things that gets
confusing.
I agree, I completely agree, Icompletely agree.
And again, maybe I had to hitall the rock bottoms because I
just wouldn't get to that placeof acceptance.
I was just like, no, I'm notgoing to accept that.
Because I didn't want, I think,if I'm very honest, I didn't
want the picture of the worldthat I wanted to hold, picture
(26:27):
of the world that I wanted tohold, that I felt like I needed
to hold, to be shattered.
And I think that was importantfor me and it's not as important
for other people, because a lotof people don't mind the world
being shattered and building anew one, and that's fine.
But because of my backgroundand some of the things that had
happened to me, my backgroundand some of the things that had
happened to me, I was holdingonto this, you know, idea of the
(26:52):
world.
That was my own version of hope,if I'm being really realistic
about it, and I just wasn'twilling to let go of that for
the reality of what life was.
And I and I'm not saying thatlife, you know, sounds very
cynical, but I'm not saying that, I'm just know sounds very
cynical, but I'm not saying that, I'm just saying my idea of
life was so far from reality andI had picked up on something
(27:15):
and held on to it for a longtime.
So I think, if I get reallyhonest, you know, when you're
trying to balance that idea ofhope and the rock bottoms and
you've got the two of them therehow do you find that balance of
, you know, between, say, thehope and and being over
(27:36):
optimistic or being completelydespondent because of the rock
bottoms?
And I think one of the keythings, if I look back on life,
I go which no one taught useither.
I always had thought when I getto a certain point, when I get
to a certain point of awareness,when I get to a certain point
(27:56):
of maturity, when I get to acertain point of my career, when
I get to a certain point oflife, I'm going to have this
understanding, and so then I'mgoing to glide, that life is
just going to glide.
No one taught me that I neededto turn around and find out why
I didn't feel like that now, ineach moment, like that thing
(28:20):
that I wanted to get to.
No one taught me that I couldhave it here If I would just
stop and start to explore myselfand explore what and again,
different levels of it atdifferent stages of your life,
but it's still nonetheless.
No one ever says, you know what?
One of the things you want tostart looking at if you're
(28:41):
hitting a few rock bottoms iswhat is it about what you want
to be, feel, not do, but be andfeel that you're not having
right now.
And how can you explore thatmind, body and soul in a
different way and emotions in adifferent way?
I can't believe I left outemotions, because it's the
(29:02):
number one reason we don't haveit, because we're running away
from those emotions.
But you hear what I'm trying tosay.
I'm trying to say, had I knownthat, that the ideal that I was
searching for outside of myselfwas really supposed to be, let
me go find that inside of myselffirst.
That would have probablybalanced out a few of those rock
(29:23):
bottoms a little bit more.
Maybe, maybe not, who knows.
I've lived the experience Ihave, but I don't think if we
could just learn at a youngerage which I think so many people
are today that let's go inward,let's ask what it is that I
think is missing.
Speaker 3 (29:43):
If we're looking at the concept of spiritual
contracts in some ways, there'sso many of those years where,
when we had that naivety, whenwe had that hope because I don't
even want to call it false hope, because it wasn't false back
then, it was real we had anaivety and hope for the world
that things were going to bedifferent.
So, when we go through life andwe have that naivety and we have
(30:03):
that naivety, we have hope, andhope is taken away and we hit
those rock bottoms and we comebouncing back.
They all morph us into thepeople that we need to be
throughout this life, dependingon the experiences we're meant
to have and I think this is whyit goes back to certain the
concept of spiritual contractsthings unfold exactly as they're
meant to and we explore them aswe're allowed to and as we're
meant to, because we go throughthese experiences and after a
(30:23):
certain point, if it's a part ofour journey, then we start
unpacking all of that tounderstand self.
Because if we have had so manyof these experiences that have
been traumatic or negative, Iguarantee you, in some way
life's going to keep bringing usthose breaking points because
it's going to say to us maybeit's time to start exploring
this, maybe it's time to startasking why, in present day, as
you were saying, and we can onlybe in denial or avoid that
(30:47):
reality for so long, but that'swhy the breaking points are
necessary.
So it's only when you broughtto so many of them and sometimes
you're brought kicking andscreaming, as you could often
say, two different individuals,to start exploring it, that you
can start to build that wholedifferent foundation and
relationship with self and startunderstanding the conditioning
(31:07):
that we've put on life, or whywe view the world the way we do
or why we fight the things thatwe fight.
It's not saying any that isright or wrong as we often talk
about.
It's just that's too simplisticto view it that way, because
it's not saying anything we wentthrough is wrong.
It's the thing.
It's just currentlymisunderstood present day of why
it needed to be that way.
But that's why we have to havethat compassion for ourselves
(31:28):
and that willingness to notjudge and to understand.
Okay, if I'm hitting this rockbottom, there is a reason and
purpose behind it today to takeme in the direction I need to go
to, from moving forward.
But of course it's that at thestart of the journey we keep
hitting these rock bottoms.
Is it that easy to accept that?
No, Kim younger Kim would haveturned this podcast off long ago
(31:53):
.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
I'd have been sound asleep, sound asleep.
And the reason for that is isbecause I really, you know, I
really didn't want to believethat life was going to be a life
full of challenges.
But I didn't understand.
The challenges are what makeyou grow.
(32:16):
You know, like, I went to thisevent last night and I was
listening to this person andhe's actually almost 82 years of
age and I was quite shockedbecause I didn't realize that's
how old this person was.
And he made a comment aboutwhere he said he started his
first book at 55.
And the reason that that hadhappened is because and I love
(32:39):
the way he said it because I hadto go through so much to get to
a point before I started toreally look at me to understand
why these things were happening.
And you know, in that momentwhat did I feel?
Three guesses, oh, okay, Ihaven't totally lost the
(33:00):
opportunity yet.
A little bit of hope there.
Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (33:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
And I found that interesting, especially since
we're talking about this today,because so many times life tells
us if you haven't donesomething by X, that's it, it's
over with.
And so people lose that hopebecause they buy into the story.
But, just like I was sayingbefore, I had the ideal of what
(33:26):
life was supposed to be, and sodoes everybody else, and that
changes, and it's okay to haveit, because it's only through
having that and then looking atit with the challenges that are
brought up that we do grow.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
You were saying I think there's so many of those
sayings throughout life thatwe've all heard is that when the
student is ready, the teacherappears.
It's like, yeah, normally theteacher appears when you've hit
rock bottom and you actuallyneed a teacher, and then a
certain book gets placed intoyour hand or a certain thing
gets advertised, you get a polltowards or you.
I think there's so manyexamples of when we've been in
(34:05):
those situations and lifepresents us with options that
weren't there before and that wewouldn't have been ready to
look at, wouldn't have beenready to actually get involved
in or to say yes to.
So it's easy to say that,looking back, oh, it seems so
obvious.
Or in hindsight, et cetera, etcetera.
But I'm saying, even for Timand I sitting here now, is there
(34:28):
most likely a few rock bottomsahead for both of us?
Speaker 1 (34:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
Oh yeah, and I'm saying it helps when we have
this awareness now, and that'swhat we were talking about
earlier.
I wish we all had thisawareness since we were four.
It would make it a little biteasier.
It doesn't mean to make it moreenjoyable two very different
things.
But I'm saying we now have anunderstanding of how to approach
rock bottom and to question itand our supports, and that makes
(34:58):
a huge difference, that we'renot fighting it as much.
But do we enjoy it?
Speaker 2 (35:04):
no, if there are people out there that can't seem
to find the hope because itfeels like the rock bottom never
disappears.
I think one of the things youknow.
Of course we want to remindeverybody it's very important to
get professional help but Yep.
But I think one of the mainthings to remember is I never
(35:26):
saw hope coming when I was deepin it, you know it was usually
when I got to a point.
A certain point hope appeared.
And, like you said, hope isthat crack of light in the wound
.
And at that point where lightenters and I agree with that so
wholeheartedly because it's likeit feels like you're banging
(35:48):
your head against the wall.
It feels like you're nevergoing to get out of it.
It feels like you've been hereforever.
And then, for whatever reason,when that hope enters, you're
like oh, oh, wait, oh okay, andI'm sure lots of people have had
that experience and not reallyunderstood.
That's the moment that hopestarted to appear and the light
(36:11):
did come in and you can seethings a little bit differently.
There's a shift in thatperception of what was actually
happening.
But not to lose hope if you'vebeen going through a rock bottom
is my point, because the hopewill appear.
But not to lose hope if you'vebeen going through a rock bottom
is my point, because the hopewill appear.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
But it's important, as you're saying, logically,
understand why it's not there atthis time in your life, when we
lose all hope or we feel thatwe've hit a rock bottom.
That's the energy, or yourenergy or life's way of saying
to you you've outgrown this partof your life and now it's time
to go explore in a logical wayand to receive that help from a
professional that you can trust.
(36:47):
So it's like you know, you'renot still wearing the same
clothes you did when you were 12or 14.
I'm saying you outgrew that,you went to the shops and bought
new clothes.
You, you knew you were growing,you changed.
But, as we talked about, if wedon't know that the shops exist
and different size clothesexists and that we can grow and
change in that way, of courseit's going to be a longer
(37:07):
journey, we're going to beatourselves up and we're not going
to have the compassion, and sothere's so much about this,
logically, that I wish we allhad been taught that when we're
hitting that rock bottom of whatit even logically represents
and the journey, we have to goon through it emotionally and
physically and spiritually withothers, with support, with
people that we trust, and Ithink that's what makes the rock
bottoms you and I go throughmoving forward very different to
(37:30):
the to the ones 20 years agoabsolutely, and I think the
thing that you left out in thereis we are not being punished,
we are so not well well, youknow, life could be the
punishment, but I mean.
Speaker 1 (37:46):
Let that go.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
Acceptance.
You know what I'm trying to say.
A lot of people believe whenthey hit these rough spots, or
rock bottoms, or whatever itappears for each person.
You know I have quite a fewpeople say to me you know, am I
being punished for the sins ofmy past?
I'm like, well, no, that's nothow it works.
(38:09):
You know, and I think that is aconcept that is important to
remember when you're goingthrough this it is not a
punishment.
If you could look at it like yousaid, I'm hitting a growth
spurt.
I've outgrown the dynamics ofwhere I'm at, and all growth is
painful.
That's why kids have growingpains.
So if you can just shift thatperspective from punishment to a
(38:35):
growth spurt, then you're goingto look at it completely
differently.
It's an important point to bemaking.
I think so, even though you'rethe one that has said it so many
times and I've laughed andgiggled I do think one of the
things we want to keep in mindis there is an acceptance, when
(38:55):
it comes to all of these things,that not one is better than the
other.
The rock bottom isn't worsethan the hope, the hope isn't
better than the rock bottom.
They go hand in hand and youcan't have one without the other
, and that is basically one ofthe things that I bang my head
against the wall trying to getto that place of acceptance.
(39:18):
So I think that is one of thekey things accepting that life
is here to support our growth.
And the more that we can reallystart to acknowledge that these
things that do show up whetherwe find them positive or
negative, whichever way we lookat them, it is still just
supporting our growth and themore we can accept that and be
(39:40):
present through that process, Ithink the transition into the
next phase of that part of yourlife becomes a lot easier.
Speaker 3 (39:49):
I couldn't have said it better myself.
Speaker 2 (39:55):
Thanks so much for listening.
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On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.