December 16, 2024 • 47 mins
This episode of the Practical Spirituality Podcast re-examines confrontation as a tool for personal growth rather than something to fear. The hosts show how early experiences shape responses to conflict and demonstrate that facing issues head-on can lead to positive transformation.
They discuss both the illuminating and painful aspects of conflict, and explore how avoiding conflict can often create underlying tension. By understanding emotional triggers and common reactions like fight, flight, or freeze, listeners can learn to move beyond avoidance and build more authentic connections.
The episode also provides practical strategies for handling confrontational conversations with empathy and active listening. With these insights, listeners can approach conflict more confidently and turn challenging moments into opportunities for deeper understanding and growth.
Become a Community Member at https://community.garethmichael.com/ to join our community and get early access to new episodes, answers to your personal questions and so much more.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kim Jewell (00:12):
Welcome back to the Practical Spirituality Podcast.
We are so excited to have youon this journey with us, where
we explore all elements of mind,body, emotions and soul through
the lens of everyday life.
Gareth Michael (00:29):
Hello Kim.
Kim Jewell (00:30):
Hi Gareth, how are you today?
Gareth Michael (00:32):
I'm doing good.
How are you doing this morning?
Kim Jewell (00:34):
I'm doing pretty good.
Gareth Michael (00:35):
I think there's another interesting conversation
for us to have on this episode.
Kim Jewell (00:40):
It's going to be an interesting one.
Gareth Michael (00:41):
I think it's something that you always
manifest in your life withoutmeaning to.
Kim Jewell (00:48):
That's true.
That is very true.
I never thought about that.
Gareth Michael (00:53):
This is going to be a very interesting episode,
but in this week's episode we'regoing to be talking about
confrontation.
Oh joy, I have a feeling whenpeople see that in the title,
they're not going to click play.
Kim Jewell (01:03):
Oh, I think they'll click play because they go oh my
gosh, I spent my whole lifetrying to avoid this stuff.
Let's see how they approach it.
Gareth Michael (01:11):
Yes, I agree, it's something that always
inevitably finds us, whetherwe're looking for it or not, is
confrontation.
Kim Jewell (01:18):
Very true, I think if you're breathing, you deal
with confrontation on some levelor another.
So yeah, I think so.
But it is funny, you know,because one of the things that
when we say the wordconfrontation, everybody always
thinks about, you know some sortof aggression or some sort of
conflict, instead of just havingthe ability to face whatever's
(01:41):
coming up for you head on.
Yep.
Gareth Michael (01:44):
And, like most things, we talk about their
relationship, and evendefinitions of what
confrontation is changes fromperson to person, because
naturally, yes, of course, youcan have confrontation with
other people, but we can have alot of confrontation with
ourselves, which is also verytrue when it comes to our mind,
body, emotions and what we gothrough past, present and
inevitably into the future, somaybe we should dive in.
(02:04):
So what is your understandingof confrontation, or even how
would you define it personally,or what's some Kim's stories you
have for us?
Kim Jewell (02:13):
As soon as you said that I was like having to face
the things you want to run awayfrom all the time, like, I think
, the idea of confrontationbecause you said when you just
said about facing it withinourselves, I went.
You know, that is where I thinkmy biggest struggle has been.
Gareth Michael (02:31):
My whole life is I've had an idea of who I've
wanted to be and theconfrontation is me having to
come to terms with who Iactually am yeah, and I think
another way of saying it whichis pretty obviously similar is
that you could, so to speak,argue that from birth we don't
come into the world havingconfrontation with ourselves.
(02:52):
When we come into the worldwe're content, we're at peace,
we're looking for some verybasic needs as a young infant.
So therefore we are exposed toconfrontation in different ways
from our caregivers, from youngage, from siblings.
It depends on the circumstance.
And then I think, over time,when that builds up on us,
there's a lot of confusion inmind, body, emotions.
(03:13):
Then that plants that seed ofconfrontation with self.
There must be something wrongwith me and then we find
ourselves fighting ourselves andthe world around us also.
And I think if you look atanyone's life you can see seeds
planted of that everywhere youlook.
Kim Jewell (03:27):
Everywhere.
And I think you know like wewere just talking before this
episode about my son's childrenand one of them being two and a
half, and that is an age wherethat sort of thing happens a lot
you just, you know the parentshave an idea of how they want
the child to be and the childjust wants what the child wants,
(03:48):
and immediately there's aconfrontation and so it's about
how do you negotiate some ofthose things.
So I think it is an ongoingthing that has been set up from
the time that we're very small.
But it's set up with thepurpose that we misunderstand.
Yeah, because we think it's abad thing, and I think that's
(04:12):
the general consensus.
Some people actually likeconfrontation, but they're very
few and far between.
Would you agree?
Gareth Michael (04:19):
Very few and far between.
But even developing arelationship with confrontation,
it's a very hard balance tostrike, I think, especially as
an adult, because you're dealingwith past fears, past traumas,
you're redefining differentelements of your relationship
with confrontation and thenegative emotions that we often
speak about.
So then it's kind of like I wantto be able to coexist with
(04:41):
confrontation when it presentsitself to me, but at the same
time I don't want to gosearching for it either.
I don't want to naturallycreate confrontation for the
sake of creating it, but, as weall have experienced, even when
you're not actively looking forit, life has interesting ways to
bring it into our lives, andfor most of us, most days,
there's some sort ofconfrontation of some kind.
And depending on what way itappears in our lives, it's
(05:05):
amazing how we responddifferently versus if it's
confrontation with a parent,versus a partner, versus with
kids, versus with an employer.
It changes depending on thecircumstance of our ability to
want to engage with it or towant to completely avoid it.
And, of course, that spectrumcan vary quite differently from
person to person.
And, as you, that spectrum canvary quite differently from
person to person.
Kim Jewell (05:25):
And, as you said, it's multi-layered depending on
how things were dealt with as wewere growing up.
So in one of the definitions wehave we talk about, it's about
addressing issues directly andhonestly.
And I go see, I'm down withthat.
I like that, that's me, butthat was never accepted in my
(05:45):
childhood.
For me to address thingsdirectly and honestly, because
you shouldn't say it like that,you shouldn't do this, you
shouldn't do that, and I'm notalone in that.
I think all of us.
You should go to bed at acertain time.
This is how you should go tobed, this is how you should
behave, instead of reallyunderstanding what the person,
(06:07):
whoever it is needs.
And so we've been hitting thatfor most of our life.
And I don't know about you, butfor me and the family that I
grew up in, with my father beingin the military and my mom
being a very strict Catholic,well, you just were not allowed
to have confrontation.
I mean, there was plenty ofconfrontation, but you weren't
(06:29):
allowed to initiate it in anyway is what I meant to say, and
so I don't think that's verydifferent for a lot of people.
So by the time we'recognitively at that stage in our
life where we're going.
Okay, well, I want to confrontthings head on, directly and
honestly, or I want to be ableto understand, because I do
think sometimes conflict isabout trying to understand, and
(06:53):
so I want to understand this.
So help me understand it.
But now you've got all thatfear that's behind it, because
if I say what I really think,I'm going to be guilted, shamed.
I say what I really think, I'mgoing to be guilted, shamed,
dismissed, betrayed, rejectedall of those things, and so you
(07:14):
can avoid it.
Gareth Michael (07:15):
We both know at this stage, and from looking at
it internally with ourselves,that conflict can be such a
powerful tool within itself forgrowth, because it tells you so
much about yourself.
It tells you so much aboutyourself, it tells you so much
about the connections that youhave in your life and whether
someone is actually creating theconflict in order to want to
solve a problem logically andout of passion, of wanting to
understand, as you were saying,versus it being used as an
(07:36):
emotional tool to try to controlanother person or to manipulate
, or and this is where it doeschange from person to person of
whether conflict is either apositive thing or extremely
abusive and negative experienceto go through.
And it's safe to say thateveryone has probably
experienced more the abusiveside of conflict or the fear
that it brings up, and with that, if you go back to the history,
(07:58):
as you were talking about, thefears that it brings up is just
even different anxieties, thediscomfort going back to all the
different negative emotions wedon't know how to talk about,
don't know how to express, tofeel, and then it's the fear of
rejection and the how it candamage so many relationships
that we have in our lives thatwe do value really highly.
But it's also the relationshipsfrom a young age.
(08:20):
They're the ones that's all weknow.
Suddenly, when you're willing to, as you say, maybe address
issues directly and be honest ofwhatever's going on in your
mind at that time, often thatcan be met with silent treatment
or in different ways of theyare not welcoming your honesty,
and then that's what brings upthose negative emotions of oh my
(08:42):
god, they're going to leave me.
This is not a safe environment,and so we can see from a very
young age how that continues tocompound over a period of time
and that we were never given thechance to actually feel
comfortable with those negativeemotions that confrontation
brings up.
But, as we were talking about,confrontation is such a positive
thing because you actually needit at times to figure out
(09:04):
logical problems.
Kim Jewell (09:08):
Well, that's very true, but then, yes, I have to
look at the other side of thecoin, which probably is more
common than ever before in well,I don't want to say in the
history of man, but you know, wenow have generational trauma
that's been handed down throughthe years, so you have a whole
subset of society that just hasdrama and intensity and conflict
, because that avoids everything, and so these people have been
(09:31):
conditioned to be in thisconstant state of drama, and so
they think they love conflict,but they're not loving conflict
for the wanting to understand itand move forward, and I don't
think they consciously thinkthey want it for abuse, but it
just becomes habitual and theyget addicted to that kind of
drama and intensity, and so theythink they love it, but they're
(09:53):
actually using it to avoid,because if I'm coming in and
dropping a bomb and watchingeverybody explode, then I don't
have to look at me and Icertainly don't have to deal
with whatever it is I don't wantto deal with.
And I think that there's a wholelot of that that happens out
there as well, which, of course,then for them, looking at
(10:13):
conflict in a healthy way, feelscompletely foreign, and so we
can now understand why so manypeople avoid it Like I can tell
you that I wanted to avoidconflict, you know, 90% of my
life and, if I'm honest, I stillavoid conflict on lots of
levels, if I'm really honestwith myself and I watch other
(10:37):
people who are self-assured andwho have a healthy sense of what
conflict and confrontation is,and I continue to be amazed that
there is and of course, I haveso much learning behind it and I
understand it logically, whythat is.
But when I watch someone whohas such a sense of self that
(11:00):
doesn't see conflict as an issueand they're not abusing it or
using it for the drama card,they're just boom straight down
the line.
I just think they're a creaturefrom another planet.
That's what I think.
Gareth Michael (11:15):
As you were saying that, I was about to say
I love conflict, I loveconfrontation.
Like I said, a creature fromanother planet I'll try to think
that as a compliment for usthat a confrontation begins.
But I think it's easy to wantto avoid confrontation at all
(11:37):
costs.
But from questioning it myselfand my relationship with thought
, like anything else we talkabout in this podcast, I've
figured out, say, a formula forme of who it's worth having
confrontation with.
Okay, because I respect whatconfrontation is.
I respect my own emotions, Iexpect where I'm at mentally,
emotionally.
But if I already know, eitherwith a history with a person or
(11:58):
someone I don't know, and Idon't feel like that, having
confrontation with a person isactually going to get anywhere
we can't hear each other thenwhy there's actually, so to
speak, no point in willinglyengaging and not knowing that
it's actually not going toproduce anything, it's not going
to produce any growth, it'sactually going to cause more
harm or more pain or more traumaand it's only going to bring up
(12:21):
old wounds for both party.
And then it becomes a match ofwho can win the debate or who
exhausts who.
And we've all done that in thepast in different ways between
family and friends, and we allhave a history with that.
So we all know it doesn't getanywhere and I think that's why,
being able to understand okay,what's bringing up within me,
can I actually have aconversation with this person,
(12:42):
even if there is conflict?
Can we actually walk away, comeback, continue the conversation
?
Conversations can get heated attimes.
There's nothing wrong with that.
But what's tricky is that whenyou are with family or a partner
and they constantly see it astheir need to say win the
argument, win the conversation,and you're not able to walk away
(13:03):
from it, that's where itbecomes a very tricky
conversation, because I thinkwe've also found times that you
end up in family events whereyou just don't open your mouth
or you just don't talk because,like what's the point?
But yet these people you'veknown your entire life.
And you don't talk because,like what's the point?
But yet these people you'veknown your entire life and you
don't want to walk away fromthem either and that that's that
is the dilemma for so manypeople.
Kim Jewell (13:21):
And you know we spend our our childhood, growing
up, being taught to avoiddisagreements.
You know that we need to keepthe peace and that how important
it is to keep the peace, butwhen that peace starts to affect
your life and you don't want tobe around family, you don't
want to go to events, or youhave that feeling because I
think, one of the things that ifeverybody could keep in mind,
(13:44):
we all want to be seen, we allwant to be heard and we all want
to be understood.
I think those are basic humanneeds that every single person
has.
And so if we could take thatapproach when we look at
confrontation sometimes, thenit's not about keeping the peace
, it's about hearing the otherperson and being heard.
It's about understanding theother person and being
(14:06):
understood.
It's about valuing what theother person has to say or needs
to say and feeling valued inyourself.
And if we could take thatapproach to a confrontation,
even if it is within ourselves,because there's something
boiling up inside of me, if I'mfeeling that internal conflict,
(14:27):
and if I could take that sameapproach with myself, then it's
going to be much easier to lookat the things I've been trying
to avoid.
Would you agree with that?
Gareth Michael (14:36):
Sounds wonderful on paper.
Kim Jewell (14:38):
On paper yeah much easier to look at the things
I've been trying to avoid.
Would you agree with that?
Sounds wonderful on paper.
On paper, yeah, it's thegetting out there and living it,
and because we're all comingfrom our different maps of the
world, then it's the tricky partof navigating it.
Gareth Michael (14:51):
But I think that's what's so hard though,
because we both know whenputting those situations where
conflict often comes out ofnowhere or kind of surprises
everyone, triggerments happenvery quickly and we find
ourselves going into the fightflight, freeze, fawn responses.
It's actually hard to todissolve those patterns and to
(15:12):
even start to introduce new waysof how we approach something
like confrontation, because it'sjust been so drilled into us
from such a young age.
Kim Jewell (15:20):
And also, like in my case.
You know, this is where thefawning comes in.
When the environment is not asafe environment, we learn to do
that.
I've got to keep everybody elsehappy, and so then
confrontation then becomeseverything to be avoided,
because if I can't keepeverybody happy, it took me so
long to get that, even when Ireconnected with an old friend.
(15:42):
This is such a typical thingfor me, and you and I have
talked about this in manydifferent areas of my life so I
connected with this old friendand they had a different
political view than I did, andthey had a different political
view than I did, and Iimmediately found myself
shutting down and saying nothingand I couldn't understand that,
because I'm prettystraightforward Now.
(16:03):
I don't speak about politics andreligion to very many people,
period.
That's my go-to because it isvery layered in many ways.
But this was someone Iconsidered very close when I
started examining what washappening for me.
It was like, I believe, that Itell them how I feel they will
leave, and the desire to havethem in my life was greater than
(16:25):
to be heard, and this sometimesis what happens to so many
people when it comes to thisidea of confrontation in the
fawning Yep.
We've been taught to fight orto run away, but then we've also
been taught just keep the peace, no matter what.
Gareth Michael (16:41):
And I think that's where it's interesting to
dive into.
What are some of theconsequences of when we find
ourselves avoiding confrontationand the different ways that
appears in our lives?
Kim Jewell (16:51):
The number one thing , I think, is like we talk about
this so often you and I werejust talking about it before the
narrative, the built upresentment, and the narrative
that starts to form, you know,the narrative about ourselves,
but also the narrative aboutsomebody else and how we just if
we don't express how we feel ina healthy way, it's going to
(17:12):
come out sideways everywherehealthy way.
Gareth Michael (17:17):
It's going to come out sideways everywhere.
It's also that if we feel wecan't communicate or be open or
be honest about what's going onin this mentally or emotionally,
it's inevitably going to leadto a lot of miscommunication and
assumptions, but not only fromourselves to other people, but
other people about us, andthat's only going to lead to
inevitably more confrontation.
But the fact we were avoidingit to start with led to
miscommunication, led toassumptions, which only ever
(17:38):
leads to more confrontation thatwe're going to be met with.
So you can see how this isongoing loop and I think that's
why we are.
We are faced with it everysingle day through our partners,
kids, parents, through work,because everyone is trying to
avoid something that is, quitefrankly, unavoidable.
That doesn't mean we stoptrying.
Kim Jewell (17:59):
Well, that's very true, and you know what it does
to us.
When we do stop or we're tryingto avoid it, we stun our own
personal growth.
You know we can't possibly growand for years, even though I've
always thought that I'm veryfrank to the point tell the
truth, I don't have a poker faceI still avoided confrontation
(18:24):
with my life.
You know, I've become an expertat changing the topic, putting
it back towards somebody elseelse, because it's to me for so
many of the years that fight wasnot worth how it played out
(18:44):
inside of me, but at the sametime, then I wasn't allowed to
be me.
I wasn't allowed to build thatsense of self.
I wasn't.
And when I say allow, I'm notallowing me is what I mean.
I'm not talking about the otherperson.
It doesn't allow me to get outthere and really understand how
to have healthy communicationDoesn't help me understand how
to have healthy confrontationDoesn't help me understand that
(19:08):
there is a way that both partiescan be heard.
Gareth Michael (19:12):
Let's take a step back from this week's
episode and share with everyonewhat we've been up to behind the
scenes.
Kim Jewell (19:18):
We're really excited to be able to finally offer the
Gareth Michael community toeach of you.
The community offers a range ofbenefits, including access to
our live events, weekly podcastepisodes, articles,
self-checking questions, as wellas a community of individuals
you can connect with andinteract with along the way.
It's designed to offer yousupport, guidance and a safe
(19:42):
space on a day-to-day basis.
We'd love to have you join ourglobal community of like-minded
individuals.
That website address, again, iswwwgarethmichaelcom.
Now let's get back to thatepisode, shall we?
Gareth Michael (20:00):
But I think this is where it's also interesting
and I just kind of want both ofus to run with this a little bit
, because trying to find thatbalance of finding your voice,
opening up, doing thatcomfortably, while also trying
to keep, at times, family andfriends in your life because no
one wants to always walk awayfrom their family completely,
yes, but because it's not alwaysconfrontation 100% of the time
(20:22):
in everyone's life, but yet ifwe're with our family or friends
and we can't be ourselves oropenly communicate, then of
course it is going to affect ourpersonal growth, as you were
saying.
But therefore, I think that'swhy we do have to find people
that it be therapists,psychologists, coaches, new
friendships at times thatactually allow us to start
(20:44):
working on ourselves in thosedifferent ways, building a
relationship with confrontation,kind of knowing who we can be
confrontational with versus thepeople we can't be.
And but that doesn't mean thatyou're limiting yourself for
your personality, because you'venow found these other people
that you can be completely openwith, can be yourself with, and
I think that's a skill that theydon't tell you about in school
that there's going to be somepeople.
(21:05):
That is sometimes.
It's actually good to closeyourself down for the right
reasons, because you actuallyknow it's not worth it, because
the other person is not going tochange, but yet you don't want
to walk away from them either.
So therefore you have to go outthere and try to find that
balance in other ways.
If a situation is abusive in anysense or it's very unhealthy,
(21:26):
then it's a very differentconversation.
But I'm saying for the averageperson is that if you feel you
can't be yourself around familymembers, around friends, because
of such a fear of confrontation, you know we have to try to
find ways to balance that out bydiscovering new people,
discovering new waysunderstanding our relationship
with confrontation, negativeemotions, how we're going to
(21:47):
learn to express ourselves more.
And sometimes we wait too oftenin the relationships we've
known for a lifetime for theother person to make the first
move.
And guess what?
That doesn't often happen, ifever.
Kim Jewell (21:58):
Well, I think, as you said, you know, we talk
about understanding how to dothat and how to find the balance
, and of course, it has to startwith us.
It has to start with thatself-reflection.
It has to start with dealingwith the like you know and I
like to speak for myself my owninner conflict and how torn I
(22:18):
was about everything.
Many times you've heard memention on this podcast my
children will call me to ask aquestion and they always
pre-frame the question with nowyou can say no, mom, and that
just it used to send me throughthe tree because I go.
Well, now I know I can't say nobecause you've already prefaced
it with this, because that isthat internal training and that
(22:42):
fear of rejection.
Well, for a long time I didn'tunderstand what that was about.
It wasn't until I startedreally going within and going
okay.
So why is it that every time Ineed to speak, my needs, there
is a complete meltdowninternally for myself, and so
I'm not saying that that's whathappens for everybody, I'm just
(23:04):
speaking about myself.
But when we talk about findingthat balance, if we don't know
we're out of balance… how are wegoing to find the balance?
Gareth Michael (23:13):
Yeah.
Kim Jewell (23:13):
And so this is why you know, society teaches us
that if you need help or youneed therapy or you have to talk
to somebody, there's somethingwrong with you.
Well, that's a little bitoutdated and antiquated way of
approaching the world, becausewe have so much influence today
that I don't know how anyonefigures out what their own path
(23:34):
is, and that is why you need aguide.
You certainly don't go to aforeign country for the first
time and go oh, I've got this.
I can't speak the language, Ican't do any of it, but I'll
just wing it.
I mean, some people do, butmostly people will get a guide
because they don't want to misssome of the relevant places.
And so this is the same withlife and confrontation or
(23:57):
dealing with our emotional stuffto find that balance.
And once we start to get itwithin ourselves, then we can
start to look at dealing with anoutside world in a different
way.
Gareth Michael (24:10):
But not leads right into.
It's about really changing ourperspective and things that we
can't avoid full-time within ourlives.
The confrontation is going tohappen, whether we're looking
for it or not.
So I think if we know it'sinevitably going to show up in
our lives, then the only thingwe can do for ourselves is learn
and build a relationship withit itself.
The different layers ofemotions that it brings up, the
(24:32):
different memories and traumasthat it brings up, the different
individuals that we think ofwhen we think of confrontation.
They're all areas to actuallyget to know ourselves better,
and it's only when you'rewilling to question it, as you
were saying, and understand whythey're a part of our lives, it
can become a useful tool forproblem solving and even finding
new connections in this life,because when you are questioning
(24:54):
yourself in this way, you dostart to open up and become an
open up next chapter of yourlife, and when you do that, you
actually organically create newconnections and maybe you didn't
expect that would be there.
Kim Jewell (25:07):
Yes, because you're operating from the world in a
completely different way.
So, exactly, it brings up, then, healthy confrontation.
And you know, let's just takethis last political cycle that
happened in the United States.
There was so much divisionthere.
Now I'm not going to go deepinto it, I'm just going to say
there was so much division there, and part of that is because we
(25:28):
have gone so far away fromallowing each person to have
their own opinion and to be ableto honestly discuss that and
agree to disagree, because it'sokay to agree to disagree, and
that is something that I thinkthe whole world has kind of
forgotten.
You know, or it's been trainedout of us, that you're either
with me or you're against me, asI've heard so many times, and I
(25:50):
go why can't it be both?
And that is about learning.
So when you have a good senseof self and you're not feeling
threatened by somebody else'sbelief or what they value, you
have that, and that comes fromchanging our perspective, as you
were just saying, now we canhave healthy confrontation.
I can say, oh wow, that'sinteresting.
I didn't understand that.
(26:12):
That is why you thought thatway.
It doesn't mean I have to takeit on.
It doesn't mean I have to takeit on.
It doesn't mean I have to agreewith it.
And so that is the benefit ofhealthy confrontation, because
it is simply acknowledgingpeople are where they are, you
are where you are, but you canstill have a very interesting
and straightforward conversationabout it.
(26:33):
All of us crave that, whetherwe understand that we do or not,
and the more that we're able todo it, we then feel more
empowered within ourself Because, oh, I had that conversation
and they didn't reject me.
I had that conversation andthey didn't tell me I was an
idiot or whatever the previousfear was before, when I couldn't
(26:54):
do it.
And also it gives you theability to resolve something
before it snowballs into amassive whatever they become.
Gareth Michael (27:05):
But I think, even if we're looking back at
the spiritual understanding ofwhy conflict continues to appear
in different areas of our lives, it's because if there's growth
within it, it will continue toappear.
So when we look out, as we oftentalk about, whatever's going on
in the inside world will bereflected in the outside world
in some way.
And just because we've got goodat ignoring certain elements
(27:26):
about the world within us andthe world outside of us I'm good
at burying stuff life gets verycreative in reintroducing these
different things to us for usto learn and grow.
So that's what we're all herefor in our own ways, and no one
can do that journey for us.
So therefore, if there's partsof us that have been trained to
ignore it, our energy willcontinue to bring it up until
(27:47):
we're willing to open our eyesor take that step in getting to
know ourselves better.
And if we don't want to get toknow ourselves better, then this
conflict will keep appearing inmultiple different ways.
And then, even when you do getto know yourself better, it
becomes healthy conflict,because you can see why the
energy has actually brought itin front of you, because you're
learning the lessons that comealong with it where beforehand
(28:08):
we were blind to it more oftenthan not.
Kim Jewell (28:11):
That's very true.
Having said all of that, one ofthe things I think people don't
understand or what you said inthere that caught my ear at
least was when we look atconfrontation as a way of growth
and that we're seeking it outfor growth because we're all
here to grow.
The only problem with that ishow many people in the world are
(28:34):
aware that that's what we'rehere to do.
So I think it's great that youand I have this concept, and a
lot of the people listening tothe podcast will have that
thought as well.
But how long did it take us toget there?
Gareth Michael (28:48):
So long and I think that's even going back to
what we were briefly discussingthere a few minutes ago of
changing the perspective, thator the narrative of why these
things appear.
Because, even saying okaybeforehand, my go-to, because of
my upbringing, because ofsociety, it was to run away, to
(29:09):
avoid, to flight, freeze, fawnresponses.
Okay, then, if you change it ofokay, I'm still going to
respond in these different ways.
It takes time to evolve orchange those responses,
responses that have been comingto me for so long, and changing
the perspective, even for me,was okay.
Why is my energy putting this infront of me now?
What's it trying to teach me?
(29:30):
Or even, if you say, why are myguides actually bringing in
conflict into my life?
Now, what are they trying to me?
I've been asking for signs forso long.
Then conflict appears and werun away, you know.
But this is where we don'toften actually understand the
signs and what the signs are,because we're always expecting
it to be so super positive allof the time, yes Whereas often
(29:51):
the conflict is actually guidingus more than positivity ever
would.
Now, it took me so long, I wantto say, to actually understand
that both are equally guides,but in completely different ways
.
Kim Jewell (30:02):
Yes, yes, I agree wholeheartedly, and it took me
even longer.
Gareth Michael (30:10):
We're both on the slow bus.
Kim Jewell (30:13):
But I think I really wanted to emphasize this,
because we're so, all of us areso quick to judge ourselves.
And if we don't understand itand people hear Gareth saying
you know that we actuallywelcome it for the growth, Well,
part of me goes hang on, I'vehad enough now.
(30:34):
Or, like you said, these areactually signs.
And I go no, the universe ispunishing me.
It might be signs, but it'spunishing me because I don't
know what I did wrong and whenwe have those kinds of thoughts,
we're looking at it from thatold, skewered point of view
instead of the new perspective.
That you're saying and so we'resaying.
One of the first steps here toreally get to healthy
(30:58):
confrontation is to shift ourperspective about growth so that
we can, you know, invite it.
Gareth Michael (31:11):
The hesitation has been felt by everyone there.
I was trying to find the rightword.
Kim Jewell (31:15):
I didn't want to say welcome it, because it's like,
oh, not welcome.
Gareth Michael (31:20):
But I think the human part of us is always not
going to want the negativity,the confrontation.
You know, it's just not a partof us that we're going to
naturally want to invite day in,day out.
We all can agree with that,okay.
But I think it's that realityof now knowing and changing that
(31:40):
perspective of it is there toteach me something.
I am not going and looking forconfrontation, as we talked
about.
I'm not trying to startarguments, I'm not trying to do
that for the sake of doing itbut at the same time, if there's
any part of me trying to avoidthat situation, that is where
the growth is.
Kim Jewell (31:58):
Yes, and that's something I did learn early on.
If I want to avoid it, it'sprobably something I need to
look at.
Or the other thing that I usedto say, and still say if you
spot it, you got it.
So if I find myself sitting injudgment of somebody, it's like
whoa, pull back.
And where is that in you thatyou don't want to look at it?
Gareth Michael (32:21):
You don't judge people, you analyze people.
Kim Jewell (32:23):
I do a little bit of both, I can be honest.
Gareth Michael (32:30):
Different perspectives, you know.
Kim Jewell (32:33):
That's right, but it's true.
You know, like even I, I'vejust recently had an uh, an
event where that happened, whereI just was like, no, I don't
want to deal with this person,and so it was through that,
those years of growth where I go, okay.
So what is it about this personthat it's firing something up
(32:55):
inside of me and what is it?
I haven't looked at about meyet, and it doesn't always have
to be a bad thing.
Gareth Michael (33:01):
No, but this is why educating the mind in ways
to allow it to question thecircumstances unfolding in front
of it becomes so important.
Because if you don't have thatlogical information present and
actively working with you, thenit's only inevitable that the
emotions and the experiencesthat are bringing up those
select emotions are never goingto take over is kind of the
(33:23):
point and shut us down and haveus go into the flight freeze
phone responses.
So that's where we so talkabout so often.
Is that educating ourselves onit and training ourselves to ask
questions about what are wefeeling?
What are we thinking?
What is it about thecircumstance?
What conclusions are we jumpingto that are not necessarily
based on fact?
Doing all of this when, whatways are we rejecting ourselves
(33:46):
but saying they're rejecting me,as you're saying?
It's just that's where itbecomes really fascinating and
that's where the goal does lineour pockets.
And then you find that theemotions aren't necessarily even
the problem in that sense atall, but we've been demonizing
them for so long.
A lot of us come fromhouseholds and societies that
didn't let us express and as wetalked about in a different
(34:07):
episode, and then part of thereason is that because if we
have a bad relationship with ouremotions, a bad relationship
with our mind, a badrelationship with it all, then
it's a lot easier for people tomanipulate us, to control us and
to have us be what they need usto be and therefore the cycles
continue until life has adifferent plan for us to start
breaking those cycles for theright reasons.
Kim Jewell (34:27):
I agree, and I think the other thing in finding that
balance, or really learning howto have effective confrontation
, is looking at timing.
So many of us were taught, andI'll bring up a phrase.
That phrase is never go to bedon an argument.
So you know that phrase.
(34:49):
Oh, you should never go to bedarguing.
Well, the truth is, if aconfrontation has happened and
all of these old stuff, all theold stuff has been brought to
the surface, trying to resolvethat in the height of that
emotion is the worst time ever.
No, I don't remember anyoneever saying that to me through
(35:10):
the years, because I alwaysthought you're not supposed to
go to bed on an argument.
So I need to get thiscompletely cleared out and
resolved before I can go tosleep and I can feel better
about it.
But like you said about thefight, flight freeze response
happens in 0.007 of amillisecond.
You're in it.
You're not going to resolveanything, you're just going to
be responding to those oldthings that you were just
(35:33):
previously speaking about.
Gareth Michael (35:39):
Another thing a person's not allowed to leave
the house or leave a place inthe middle of an argument in
case they die, and then you'releft with the guilt of that or
the shame of oh, we left on badterms.
It's the same thing, but in adifferent way, of it's actually
fear driving, trying to dissolvethe confrontation, not because
it's even for the right reasons,of wanting to grow from it.
It's like how do I avoidsomething worse happening than
this confrontation?
Kim Jewell (36:00):
And so what I would say to that is throw those two
sayings right out the window.
Just throw them out the windowbecause they're highly
ineffective.
But and what I have found truefor myself.
Now, I know not everybody hashad the same journey as me, but
what I have found is once, whenI was starting to learn how to
deal with confrontation in ahealthy way, once I have been
(36:22):
triggered into any of those oldresponses, my first response is
stop, excuse me, I just need torun to the restroom for a minute
, because that was my favoriteplace to bring myself back to
the present moment, because Icouldn't possibly have a healthy
confrontation or discussionwith anybody.
If I'm coming from a younger,insecure self that feels like my
(36:45):
life is threatened.
So when I go off and whetherthat's, I just need to go and
have a quick walk, can we?
You know and I think BreneBrown coined this phrase, you
know, can we circle back?
Can we just pause here andcircle back when we both have
calmed down?
Those are effectively moreeffective ways to deal with
(37:06):
confrontation than to keep goingwhen both people are at a peak
emotional state.
Would you agree with that?
Gareth Michael (37:15):
Yeah, absolutely would, and I think it's in
learning those differenttechniques becomes a huge
benefit of beginning to build arelationship with confrontation,
but not only within ourselves,but with the people around us
moving forward.
So maybe we should continuewith, or on that line of
thinking about what's thedifferent ways we can approach
confrontation effectively inday-to-day life so some of the
(37:38):
things that I was just speakingabout I I think are the very
first steps.
Kim Jewell (37:41):
You know you want to before.
I mean, sometimes we don't havethe obviously the time to do
that, but if we know we're goingto consciously confront a
situation, we can take some timeto self reflect and really find
out what is our part in it.
What is it you know we want togain from having this
(38:02):
conversation that we're about tohave?
And then, like I said about thetime, you know, I often say to
people if you want to talk tosomebody about something, why
don't you find a neutral placeto do it?
Why don't you find a time whenneither person is really upset
and say, hey, I just want tocome back to this topic we
talked about before and justshare some of my own thoughts on
(38:26):
it.
It doesn't have to always beabout gearing up for a fight and
it's about then rememberingbecause you've done that
self-reflection, because you'rehere, because you want to
absolutely resolve or be able tomove forward with something,
then it's about remindingyourself to stay calm and if you
find yourself not being calm,give yourself permission to have
(38:47):
that out and go for a walk andcome back to it.
Gareth Michael (38:56):
Diving deeper into it.
I think, especially if we'replanning to have a conversation
with someone or there's certainthings on our mind that we feel
we need to get out or we need todiscuss with that person,
reflecting on the purpose of theconversation or actually you
know for yourself the otherperson, what are you hoping is
the result that comes from this,and often if you are having
this conversation with someonethat you know quite well, you
can anticipate what theirreactions are most likely going
(39:17):
to be.
Why?
Because you've probably knownthis person or these people for
a very long time.
So even if the idea of that isbringing up anxiety or it's
bringing up a lot of certainemotions within yourself, that
actually is showing you whereyou have to do work with
relationship with self and yourrelationship with those emotions
.
And that's actually a reallygood pointer to go to someone
(39:39):
you trust and start workingthrough that before even maybe
going straight to the person tohave that, maybe that potential
confrontational talk.
Because if that anxiety isstill there, it's going to make
actually having the talksomewhat even harder for you to
want to have and you'll want toavoid it and put it off for even
longer if the idea that it canbe such a guide in where we're
(40:02):
still not quite clear whetherthere's confusion within self
about mind, emotions and evenhow our body responds to the
idea of entering thoseconfrontational conversations
and even in staying calm, as youwere saying there, in the end
it just goes to show that ifwe're struggling to do that, if
those emotions are building, itdoes guide us of our emotions
and our relationship with ouremotions present day and where
(40:23):
we maybe need to learn how tocontinue to regulate our
emotions and build arelationship with them.
And there is so many differenttechniques and mindfulness and
meditations and guidedmeditations that we can do
building the education part ofunderstanding what the role of
the emotions are in our system,why they're presenting
(40:43):
themselves the way they are.
Our mind and our emotions aretrying to work together to
decode parts of our past that itdoesn't currently understand.
So it's not trying to encourageyou into a tricky position
present day for the sake ofdoing it.
It wants you to understand selfso that you are able to
confidently go into thesecircumstances where
confrontation is going tocontinue to be present in your
(41:05):
day to day life in order to grow.
So even if the idea ofconfrontation is bringing up
stuff in you today.
That's just showing you whereyou have to unpack before adding
more confrontation to yourmemories and to your past.
Kim Jewell (41:18):
Absolutely, and one of the things when you talk
about staying calm, one of thetricks that I learned because
literally this is what it feltlike for me I know it's not a
trick, but felt like a trick waslearning to actively listen,
and one of the tools I use forthat was every time the other
person opened their mouth, Iwould say to myself I have to
(41:40):
listen to every single word tounderstand exactly what they're
saying, because they might have.
The one thing that I've missedand what that did for me was,
instead of going in trying toprepare what my response was
going to be, as so many peopledo, we're not actually listening
to understand the other personthen, because we're trying to
(42:03):
get our point across.
When we go in and we'reactively listening and we're
really trying to understand whatthe other person is saying,
then we are going to hear thatinformation differently, but it
also gives us the space then toacknowledge what's going on for
them, so they feel heard andvalidated, and then your
(42:26):
response becomes natural andit's much easier for it not to
be so heated.
Gareth Michael (42:32):
And speaking of heated, I think the next few
things go without saying, butit's easier said than done.
As we both know, it's importantwhen we're actively engaged in
confrontation that we try toavoid personal attacks when
possible.
Did you hear that?
Kim Jewell (42:50):
yes, the way that we say that is, we use, I feel,
statements instead of you didthis.
Gareth Michael (43:04):
I think sometimes it moves so quickly
that it's something we have tocircle back to.
Kim Jewell (43:10):
Many times yes.
Gareth Michael (43:13):
But I think it's avoiding the personal attacks
when possible and trying not toadd any fuel to the fire,
basically because it's a veryspecific reason to why you're
bringing the confrontationconversation up to start with.
All you can do is to make surethat you're not the person
engaging in the personal attacks.
I understand that you do nothave control whether the other
(43:35):
person wants to make it personalor find ways to shut the
conversation down, but when thisand when either party starts
making a personal, theconversation is technically over
.
Yes, because at that stageboundaries have been crossed.
It doesn't get better from here.
That's where we need do need tocircle back and come back to it
.
That does not mean giving up onthe concept of having the
conversation, but it's knowingwhen to draw the line of going.
(43:57):
Okay, let's take a breath andcome back to what our common
goal is and what we both wantout of this for each other and
for growth.
Kim Jewell (44:04):
Yeah, and I think the other thing is if we keep in
mind whenever that we arehaving a confrontation or we're
speaking with anyone to try andstay that solution focused.
So solution doesn't mean thatwe're going to be best friends
forever.
So solution doesn't mean thatwe're going to be best friends
forever.
Solution focus means I havebeen able to express my feelings
(44:25):
in a healthy way and state whatis important for me, and I've
been able to listen to what'simportant for the other person
and given them space to statewhat they needed in a healthy
way and then find a commonground that you guys can meet on
.
That is solution focused, likeI know some people would say.
(44:51):
Well, we should be saying howcan we make sure that this never
happens again?
Well, duh, that's going tohappen again.
Are you human?
Like to say how can we makesure this isn't going to happen
again is just a futile statement, because we are humans.
We're fallible, we're going tomake mistakes, but what we want
to do is be able to respect eachother.
Gareth Michael (45:12):
For when confrontation inevitably comes
back around?
How do we be more efficient inour communication with one
another about what's going onmentally and emotionally to meet
the common goal, but to saythat we're never going to have
another argument or aconfrontation or arrive, so to
speak?
Kim Jewell (45:28):
it's just not true it's just la la land that's why
there's.
Gareth Michael (45:32):
So there's always something more to learn
about ourselves individually andtogether as a couple,
regardless of the circumstancesin which the confrontation needs
to exist in that moment.
So I think that summarizes it,though, honestly, is that
confrontation is not if ithappens, it's when it's going to
happen.
Kim Jewell (45:48):
Absolutely, and I think it is about understanding
that that is part of thisjourney, that you can try to
avoid it, but it's going to finda way to find its way to come
up in your life, no matter whatyou do.
So the more that we getcomfortable and this is the
saying that I used to say,getting comfortable in the
(46:09):
uncomfortable, becoming certainin the uncertainty the more that
we're able to do that we can go.
Okay, there's something for mein this.
Can I find whatever that littlegem is?
Gareth Michael (46:21):
I couldn't agree more.
Kim Jewell (46:25):
Thanks so much for listening.
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Thanks again, and I hope youguys are having a lovely week.
Welcome back to the Practical Spirituality Podcast.
We are so excited to have youon this journey with us, where
we explore all elements of mind,body, emotions and soul through
the lens of everyday life.
Gareth Michael (00:29):
Hello Kim.
Kim Jewell (00:30):
Hi Gareth, how are you today?
Gareth Michael (00:32):
I'm doing good.
How are you doing this morning?
Kim Jewell (00:34):
I'm doing pretty good.
Gareth Michael (00:35):
I think there's another interesting conversation
for us to have on this episode.
Kim Jewell (00:40):
It's going to be an interesting one.
Gareth Michael (00:41):
I think it's something that you always
manifest in your life withoutmeaning to.
Kim Jewell (00:48):
That's true.
That is very true.
I never thought about that.
Gareth Michael (00:53):
This is going to be a very interesting episode,
but in this week's episode we'regoing to be talking about
confrontation.
Oh joy, I have a feeling whenpeople see that in the title,
they're not going to click play.
Kim Jewell (01:03):
Oh, I think they'll click play because they go oh my
gosh, I spent my whole lifetrying to avoid this stuff.
Let's see how they approach it.
Gareth Michael (01:11):
Yes, I agree, it's something that always
inevitably finds us, whetherwe're looking for it or not, is
confrontation.
Kim Jewell (01:18):
Very true, I think if you're breathing, you deal
with confrontation on some levelor another.
So yeah, I think so.
But it is funny, you know,because one of the things that
when we say the wordconfrontation, everybody always
thinks about, you know some sortof aggression or some sort of
conflict, instead of just havingthe ability to face whatever's
(01:41):
coming up for you head on.
Yep.
Gareth Michael (01:44):
And, like most things, we talk about their
relationship, and evendefinitions of what
confrontation is changes fromperson to person, because
naturally, yes, of course, youcan have confrontation with
other people, but we can have alot of confrontation with
ourselves, which is also verytrue when it comes to our mind,
body, emotions and what we gothrough past, present and
inevitably into the future, somaybe we should dive in.
(02:04):
So what is your understandingof confrontation, or even how
would you define it personally,or what's some Kim's stories you
have for us?
Kim Jewell (02:13):
As soon as you said that I was like having to face
the things you want to run awayfrom all the time, like, I think
, the idea of confrontationbecause you said when you just
said about facing it withinourselves, I went.
You know, that is where I thinkmy biggest struggle has been.
Gareth Michael (02:31):
My whole life is I've had an idea of who I've
wanted to be and theconfrontation is me having to
come to terms with who Iactually am yeah, and I think
another way of saying it whichis pretty obviously similar is
that you could, so to speak,argue that from birth we don't
come into the world havingconfrontation with ourselves.
(02:52):
When we come into the worldwe're content, we're at peace,
we're looking for some verybasic needs as a young infant.
So therefore we are exposed toconfrontation in different ways
from our caregivers, from youngage, from siblings.
It depends on the circumstance.
And then I think, over time,when that builds up on us,
there's a lot of confusion inmind, body, emotions.
(03:13):
Then that plants that seed ofconfrontation with self.
There must be something wrongwith me and then we find
ourselves fighting ourselves andthe world around us also.
And I think if you look atanyone's life you can see seeds
planted of that everywhere youlook.
Kim Jewell (03:27):
Everywhere.
And I think you know like wewere just talking before this
episode about my son's childrenand one of them being two and a
half, and that is an age wherethat sort of thing happens a lot
you just, you know the parentshave an idea of how they want
the child to be and the childjust wants what the child wants,
(03:48):
and immediately there's aconfrontation and so it's about
how do you negotiate some ofthose things.
So I think it is an ongoingthing that has been set up from
the time that we're very small.
But it's set up with thepurpose that we misunderstand.
Yeah, because we think it's abad thing, and I think that's
(04:12):
the general consensus.
Some people actually likeconfrontation, but they're very
few and far between.
Would you agree?
Gareth Michael (04:19):
Very few and far between.
But even developing arelationship with confrontation,
it's a very hard balance tostrike, I think, especially as
an adult, because you're dealingwith past fears, past traumas,
you're redefining differentelements of your relationship
with confrontation and thenegative emotions that we often
speak about.
So then it's kind of like I wantto be able to coexist with
(04:41):
confrontation when it presentsitself to me, but at the same
time I don't want to gosearching for it either.
I don't want to naturallycreate confrontation for the
sake of creating it, but, as weall have experienced, even when
you're not actively looking forit, life has interesting ways to
bring it into our lives, andfor most of us, most days,
there's some sort ofconfrontation of some kind.
And depending on what way itappears in our lives, it's
(05:05):
amazing how we responddifferently versus if it's
confrontation with a parent,versus a partner, versus with
kids, versus with an employer.
It changes depending on thecircumstance of our ability to
want to engage with it or towant to completely avoid it.
And, of course, that spectrumcan vary quite differently from
person to person.
And, as you, that spectrum canvary quite differently from
person to person.
Kim Jewell (05:25):
And, as you said, it's multi-layered depending on
how things were dealt with as wewere growing up.
So in one of the definitions wehave we talk about, it's about
addressing issues directly andhonestly.
And I go see, I'm down withthat.
I like that, that's me, butthat was never accepted in my
(05:45):
childhood.
For me to address thingsdirectly and honestly, because
you shouldn't say it like that,you shouldn't do this, you
shouldn't do that, and I'm notalone in that.
I think all of us.
You should go to bed at acertain time.
This is how you should go tobed, this is how you should
behave, instead of reallyunderstanding what the person,
(06:07):
whoever it is needs.
And so we've been hitting thatfor most of our life.
And I don't know about you, butfor me and the family that I
grew up in, with my father beingin the military and my mom
being a very strict Catholic,well, you just were not allowed
to have confrontation.
I mean, there was plenty ofconfrontation, but you weren't
(06:29):
allowed to initiate it in anyway is what I meant to say, and
so I don't think that's verydifferent for a lot of people.
So by the time we'recognitively at that stage in our
life where we're going.
Okay, well, I want to confrontthings head on, directly and
honestly, or I want to be ableto understand, because I do
think sometimes conflict isabout trying to understand, and
(06:53):
so I want to understand this.
So help me understand it.
But now you've got all thatfear that's behind it, because
if I say what I really think,I'm going to be guilted, shamed.
I say what I really think, I'mgoing to be guilted, shamed,
dismissed, betrayed, rejectedall of those things, and so you
(07:14):
can avoid it.
Gareth Michael (07:15):
We both know at this stage, and from looking at
it internally with ourselves,that conflict can be such a
powerful tool within itself forgrowth, because it tells you so
much about yourself.
It tells you so much aboutyourself, it tells you so much
about the connections that youhave in your life and whether
someone is actually creating theconflict in order to want to
solve a problem logically andout of passion, of wanting to
understand, as you were saying,versus it being used as an
(07:36):
emotional tool to try to controlanother person or to manipulate
, or and this is where it doeschange from person to person of
whether conflict is either apositive thing or extremely
abusive and negative experienceto go through.
And it's safe to say thateveryone has probably
experienced more the abusiveside of conflict or the fear
that it brings up, and with that, if you go back to the history,
(07:58):
as you were talking about, thefears that it brings up is just
even different anxieties, thediscomfort going back to all the
different negative emotions wedon't know how to talk about,
don't know how to express, tofeel, and then it's the fear of
rejection and the how it candamage so many relationships
that we have in our lives thatwe do value really highly.
But it's also the relationshipsfrom a young age.
(08:20):
They're the ones that's all weknow.
Suddenly, when you're willing to, as you say, maybe address
issues directly and be honest ofwhatever's going on in your
mind at that time, often thatcan be met with silent treatment
or in different ways of theyare not welcoming your honesty,
and then that's what brings upthose negative emotions of oh my
(08:42):
god, they're going to leave me.
This is not a safe environment,and so we can see from a very
young age how that continues tocompound over a period of time
and that we were never given thechance to actually feel
comfortable with those negativeemotions that confrontation
brings up.
But, as we were talking about,confrontation is such a positive
thing because you actually needit at times to figure out
(09:04):
logical problems.
Kim Jewell (09:08):
Well, that's very true, but then, yes, I have to
look at the other side of thecoin, which probably is more
common than ever before in well,I don't want to say in the
history of man, but you know, wenow have generational trauma
that's been handed down throughthe years, so you have a whole
subset of society that just hasdrama and intensity and conflict
, because that avoids everything, and so these people have been
(09:31):
conditioned to be in thisconstant state of drama, and so
they think they love conflict,but they're not loving conflict
for the wanting to understand itand move forward, and I don't
think they consciously thinkthey want it for abuse, but it
just becomes habitual and theyget addicted to that kind of
drama and intensity, and so theythink they love it, but they're
(09:53):
actually using it to avoid,because if I'm coming in and
dropping a bomb and watchingeverybody explode, then I don't
have to look at me and Icertainly don't have to deal
with whatever it is I don't wantto deal with.
And I think that there's a wholelot of that that happens out
there as well, which, of course,then for them, looking at
(10:13):
conflict in a healthy way, feelscompletely foreign, and so we
can now understand why so manypeople avoid it Like I can tell
you that I wanted to avoidconflict, you know, 90% of my
life and, if I'm honest, I stillavoid conflict on lots of
levels, if I'm really honestwith myself and I watch other
(10:37):
people who are self-assured andwho have a healthy sense of what
conflict and confrontation is,and I continue to be amazed that
there is and of course, I haveso much learning behind it and I
understand it logically, whythat is.
But when I watch someone whohas such a sense of self that
(11:00):
doesn't see conflict as an issueand they're not abusing it or
using it for the drama card,they're just boom straight down
the line.
I just think they're a creaturefrom another planet.
That's what I think.
Gareth Michael (11:15):
As you were saying that, I was about to say
I love conflict, I loveconfrontation.
Like I said, a creature fromanother planet I'll try to think
that as a compliment for usthat a confrontation begins.
But I think it's easy to wantto avoid confrontation at all
(11:37):
costs.
But from questioning it myselfand my relationship with thought
, like anything else we talkabout in this podcast, I've
figured out, say, a formula forme of who it's worth having
confrontation with.
Okay, because I respect whatconfrontation is.
I respect my own emotions, Iexpect where I'm at mentally,
emotionally.
But if I already know, eitherwith a history with a person or
(11:58):
someone I don't know, and Idon't feel like that, having
confrontation with a person isactually going to get anywhere
we can't hear each other thenwhy there's actually, so to
speak, no point in willinglyengaging and not knowing that
it's actually not going toproduce anything, it's not going
to produce any growth, it'sactually going to cause more
harm or more pain or more traumaand it's only going to bring up
(12:21):
old wounds for both party.
And then it becomes a match ofwho can win the debate or who
exhausts who.
And we've all done that in thepast in different ways between
family and friends, and we allhave a history with that.
So we all know it doesn't getanywhere and I think that's why,
being able to understand okay,what's bringing up within me,
can I actually have aconversation with this person,
(12:42):
even if there is conflict?
Can we actually walk away, comeback, continue the conversation
?
Conversations can get heated attimes.
There's nothing wrong with that.
But what's tricky is that whenyou are with family or a partner
and they constantly see it astheir need to say win the
argument, win the conversation,and you're not able to walk away
(13:03):
from it, that's where itbecomes a very tricky
conversation, because I thinkwe've also found times that you
end up in family events whereyou just don't open your mouth
or you just don't talk because,like what's the point?
But yet these people you'veknown your entire life.
And you don't talk because,like what's the point?
But yet these people you'veknown your entire life and you
don't want to walk away fromthem either and that that's that
is the dilemma for so manypeople.
Kim Jewell (13:21):
And you know we spend our our childhood, growing
up, being taught to avoiddisagreements.
You know that we need to keepthe peace and that how important
it is to keep the peace, butwhen that peace starts to affect
your life and you don't want tobe around family, you don't
want to go to events, or youhave that feeling because I
think, one of the things that ifeverybody could keep in mind,
(13:44):
we all want to be seen, we allwant to be heard and we all want
to be understood.
I think those are basic humanneeds that every single person
has.
And so if we could take thatapproach when we look at
confrontation sometimes, thenit's not about keeping the peace
, it's about hearing the otherperson and being heard.
It's about understanding theother person and being
(14:06):
understood.
It's about valuing what theother person has to say or needs
to say and feeling valued inyourself.
And if we could take thatapproach to a confrontation,
even if it is within ourselves,because there's something
boiling up inside of me, if I'mfeeling that internal conflict,
(14:27):
and if I could take that sameapproach with myself, then it's
going to be much easier to lookat the things I've been trying
to avoid.
Would you agree with that?
Gareth Michael (14:36):
Sounds wonderful on paper.
Kim Jewell (14:38):
On paper yeah much easier to look at the things
I've been trying to avoid.
Would you agree with that?
Sounds wonderful on paper.
On paper, yeah, it's thegetting out there and living it,
and because we're all comingfrom our different maps of the
world, then it's the tricky partof navigating it.
Gareth Michael (14:51):
But I think that's what's so hard though,
because we both know whenputting those situations where
conflict often comes out ofnowhere or kind of surprises
everyone, triggerments happenvery quickly and we find
ourselves going into the fightflight, freeze, fawn responses.
It's actually hard to todissolve those patterns and to
(15:12):
even start to introduce new waysof how we approach something
like confrontation, because it'sjust been so drilled into us
from such a young age.
Kim Jewell (15:20):
And also, like in my case.
You know, this is where thefawning comes in.
When the environment is not asafe environment, we learn to do
that.
I've got to keep everybody elsehappy, and so then
confrontation then becomeseverything to be avoided,
because if I can't keepeverybody happy, it took me so
long to get that, even when Ireconnected with an old friend.
(15:42):
This is such a typical thingfor me, and you and I have
talked about this in manydifferent areas of my life so I
connected with this old friendand they had a different
political view than I did, andthey had a different political
view than I did, and Iimmediately found myself
shutting down and saying nothingand I couldn't understand that,
because I'm prettystraightforward Now.
(16:03):
I don't speak about politics andreligion to very many people,
period.
That's my go-to because it isvery layered in many ways.
But this was someone Iconsidered very close when I
started examining what washappening for me.
It was like, I believe, that Itell them how I feel they will
leave, and the desire to havethem in my life was greater than
(16:25):
to be heard, and this sometimesis what happens to so many
people when it comes to thisidea of confrontation in the
fawning Yep.
We've been taught to fight orto run away, but then we've also
been taught just keep the peace, no matter what.
Gareth Michael (16:41):
And I think that's where it's interesting to
dive into.
What are some of theconsequences of when we find
ourselves avoiding confrontationand the different ways that
appears in our lives?
Kim Jewell (16:51):
The number one thing , I think, is like we talk about
this so often you and I werejust talking about it before the
narrative, the built upresentment, and the narrative
that starts to form, you know,the narrative about ourselves,
but also the narrative aboutsomebody else and how we just if
we don't express how we feel ina healthy way, it's going to
(17:12):
come out sideways everywherehealthy way.
Gareth Michael (17:17):
It's going to come out sideways everywhere.
It's also that if we feel wecan't communicate or be open or
be honest about what's going onin this mentally or emotionally,
it's inevitably going to leadto a lot of miscommunication and
assumptions, but not only fromourselves to other people, but
other people about us, andthat's only going to lead to
inevitably more confrontation.
But the fact we were avoidingit to start with led to
miscommunication, led toassumptions, which only ever
(17:38):
leads to more confrontation thatwe're going to be met with.
So you can see how this isongoing loop and I think that's
why we are.
We are faced with it everysingle day through our partners,
kids, parents, through work,because everyone is trying to
avoid something that is, quitefrankly, unavoidable.
That doesn't mean we stoptrying.
Kim Jewell (17:59):
Well, that's very true, and you know what it does
to us.
When we do stop or we're tryingto avoid it, we stun our own
personal growth.
You know we can't possibly growand for years, even though I've
always thought that I'm veryfrank to the point tell the
truth, I don't have a poker faceI still avoided confrontation
(18:24):
with my life.
You know, I've become an expertat changing the topic, putting
it back towards somebody elseelse, because it's to me for so
many of the years that fight wasnot worth how it played out
(18:44):
inside of me, but at the sametime, then I wasn't allowed to
be me.
I wasn't allowed to build thatsense of self.
I wasn't.
And when I say allow, I'm notallowing me is what I mean.
I'm not talking about the otherperson.
It doesn't allow me to get outthere and really understand how
to have healthy communicationDoesn't help me understand how
to have healthy confrontationDoesn't help me understand that
(19:08):
there is a way that both partiescan be heard.
Gareth Michael (19:12):
Let's take a step back from this week's
episode and share with everyonewhat we've been up to behind the
scenes.
Kim Jewell (19:18):
We're really excited to be able to finally offer the
Gareth Michael community toeach of you.
The community offers a range ofbenefits, including access to
our live events, weekly podcastepisodes, articles,
self-checking questions, as wellas a community of individuals
you can connect with andinteract with along the way.
It's designed to offer yousupport, guidance and a safe
(19:42):
space on a day-to-day basis.
We'd love to have you join ourglobal community of like-minded
individuals.
That website address, again, iswwwgarethmichaelcom.
Now let's get back to thatepisode, shall we?
Gareth Michael (20:00):
But I think this is where it's also interesting
and I just kind of want both ofus to run with this a little bit
, because trying to find thatbalance of finding your voice,
opening up, doing thatcomfortably, while also trying
to keep, at times, family andfriends in your life because no
one wants to always walk awayfrom their family completely,
yes, but because it's not alwaysconfrontation 100% of the time
(20:22):
in everyone's life, but yet ifwe're with our family or friends
and we can't be ourselves oropenly communicate, then of
course it is going to affect ourpersonal growth, as you were
saying.
But therefore, I think that'swhy we do have to find people
that it be therapists,psychologists, coaches, new
friendships at times thatactually allow us to start
(20:44):
working on ourselves in thosedifferent ways, building a
relationship with confrontation,kind of knowing who we can be
confrontational with versus thepeople we can't be.
And but that doesn't mean thatyou're limiting yourself for
your personality, because you'venow found these other people
that you can be completely openwith, can be yourself with, and
I think that's a skill that theydon't tell you about in school
that there's going to be somepeople.
(21:05):
That is sometimes.
It's actually good to closeyourself down for the right
reasons, because you actuallyknow it's not worth it, because
the other person is not going tochange, but yet you don't want
to walk away from them either.
So therefore you have to go outthere and try to find that
balance in other ways.
If a situation is abusive in anysense or it's very unhealthy,
(21:26):
then it's a very differentconversation.
But I'm saying for the averageperson is that if you feel you
can't be yourself around familymembers, around friends, because
of such a fear of confrontation, you know we have to try to
find ways to balance that out bydiscovering new people,
discovering new waysunderstanding our relationship
with confrontation, negativeemotions, how we're going to
(21:47):
learn to express ourselves more.
And sometimes we wait too oftenin the relationships we've
known for a lifetime for theother person to make the first
move.
And guess what?
That doesn't often happen, ifever.
Kim Jewell (21:58):
Well, I think, as you said, you know, we talk
about understanding how to dothat and how to find the balance
, and of course, it has to startwith us.
It has to start with thatself-reflection.
It has to start with dealingwith the like you know and I
like to speak for myself my owninner conflict and how torn I
(22:18):
was about everything.
Many times you've heard memention on this podcast my
children will call me to ask aquestion and they always
pre-frame the question with nowyou can say no, mom, and that
just it used to send me throughthe tree because I go.
Well, now I know I can't say nobecause you've already prefaced
it with this, because that isthat internal training and that
(22:42):
fear of rejection.
Well, for a long time I didn'tunderstand what that was about.
It wasn't until I startedreally going within and going
okay.
So why is it that every time Ineed to speak, my needs, there
is a complete meltdowninternally for myself, and so
I'm not saying that that's whathappens for everybody, I'm just
(23:04):
speaking about myself.
But when we talk about findingthat balance, if we don't know
we're out of balance… how are wegoing to find the balance?
Gareth Michael (23:13):
Yeah.
Kim Jewell (23:13):
And so this is why you know, society teaches us
that if you need help or youneed therapy or you have to talk
to somebody, there's somethingwrong with you.
Well, that's a little bitoutdated and antiquated way of
approaching the world, becausewe have so much influence today
that I don't know how anyonefigures out what their own path
(23:34):
is, and that is why you need aguide.
You certainly don't go to aforeign country for the first
time and go oh, I've got this.
I can't speak the language, Ican't do any of it, but I'll
just wing it.
I mean, some people do, butmostly people will get a guide
because they don't want to misssome of the relevant places.
And so this is the same withlife and confrontation or
(23:57):
dealing with our emotional stuffto find that balance.
And once we start to get itwithin ourselves, then we can
start to look at dealing with anoutside world in a different
way.
Gareth Michael (24:10):
But not leads right into.
It's about really changing ourperspective and things that we
can't avoid full-time within ourlives.
The confrontation is going tohappen, whether we're looking
for it or not.
So I think if we know it'sinevitably going to show up in
our lives, then the only thingwe can do for ourselves is learn
and build a relationship withit itself.
The different layers ofemotions that it brings up, the
(24:32):
different memories and traumasthat it brings up, the different
individuals that we think ofwhen we think of confrontation.
They're all areas to actuallyget to know ourselves better,
and it's only when you'rewilling to question it, as you
were saying, and understand whythey're a part of our lives, it
can become a useful tool forproblem solving and even finding
new connections in this life,because when you are questioning
(24:54):
yourself in this way, you dostart to open up and become an
open up next chapter of yourlife, and when you do that, you
actually organically create newconnections and maybe you didn't
expect that would be there.
Kim Jewell (25:07):
Yes, because you're operating from the world in a
completely different way.
So, exactly, it brings up, then, healthy confrontation.
And you know, let's just takethis last political cycle that
happened in the United States.
There was so much divisionthere.
Now I'm not going to go deepinto it, I'm just going to say
there was so much division there, and part of that is because we
(25:28):
have gone so far away fromallowing each person to have
their own opinion and to be ableto honestly discuss that and
agree to disagree, because it'sokay to agree to disagree, and
that is something that I thinkthe whole world has kind of
forgotten.
You know, or it's been trainedout of us, that you're either
with me or you're against me, asI've heard so many times, and I
(25:50):
go why can't it be both?
And that is about learning.
So when you have a good senseof self and you're not feeling
threatened by somebody else'sbelief or what they value, you
have that, and that comes fromchanging our perspective, as you
were just saying, now we canhave healthy confrontation.
I can say, oh wow, that'sinteresting.
I didn't understand that.
(26:12):
That is why you thought thatway.
It doesn't mean I have to takeit on.
It doesn't mean I have to takeit on.
It doesn't mean I have to agreewith it.
And so that is the benefit ofhealthy confrontation, because
it is simply acknowledgingpeople are where they are, you
are where you are, but you canstill have a very interesting
and straightforward conversationabout it.
(26:33):
All of us crave that, whetherwe understand that we do or not,
and the more that we're able todo it, we then feel more
empowered within ourself Because, oh, I had that conversation
and they didn't reject me.
I had that conversation andthey didn't tell me I was an
idiot or whatever the previousfear was before, when I couldn't
(26:54):
do it.
And also it gives you theability to resolve something
before it snowballs into amassive whatever they become.
Gareth Michael (27:05):
But I think, even if we're looking back at
the spiritual understanding ofwhy conflict continues to appear
in different areas of our lives, it's because if there's growth
within it, it will continue toappear.
So when we look out, as we oftentalk about, whatever's going on
in the inside world will bereflected in the outside world
in some way.
And just because we've got goodat ignoring certain elements
(27:26):
about the world within us andthe world outside of us I'm good
at burying stuff life gets verycreative in reintroducing these
different things to us for usto learn and grow.
So that's what we're all herefor in our own ways, and no one
can do that journey for us.
So therefore, if there's partsof us that have been trained to
ignore it, our energy willcontinue to bring it up until
(27:47):
we're willing to open our eyesor take that step in getting to
know ourselves better.
And if we don't want to get toknow ourselves better, then this
conflict will keep appearing inmultiple different ways.
And then, even when you do getto know yourself better, it
becomes healthy conflict,because you can see why the
energy has actually brought itin front of you, because you're
learning the lessons that comealong with it where beforehand
(28:08):
we were blind to it more oftenthan not.
Kim Jewell (28:11):
That's very true.
Having said all of that, one ofthe things I think people don't
understand or what you said inthere that caught my ear at
least was when we look atconfrontation as a way of growth
and that we're seeking it outfor growth because we're all
here to grow.
The only problem with that ishow many people in the world are
(28:34):
aware that that's what we'rehere to do.
So I think it's great that youand I have this concept, and a
lot of the people listening tothe podcast will have that
thought as well.
But how long did it take us toget there?
Gareth Michael (28:48):
So long and I think that's even going back to
what we were briefly discussingthere a few minutes ago of
changing the perspective, thator the narrative of why these
things appear.
Because, even saying okaybeforehand, my go-to, because of
my upbringing, because ofsociety, it was to run away, to
(29:09):
avoid, to flight, freeze, fawnresponses.
Okay, then, if you change it ofokay, I'm still going to
respond in these different ways.
It takes time to evolve orchange those responses,
responses that have been comingto me for so long, and changing
the perspective, even for me,was okay.
Why is my energy putting this infront of me now?
What's it trying to teach me?
(29:30):
Or even, if you say, why are myguides actually bringing in
conflict into my life?
Now, what are they trying to me?
I've been asking for signs forso long.
Then conflict appears and werun away, you know.
But this is where we don'toften actually understand the
signs and what the signs are,because we're always expecting
it to be so super positive allof the time, yes Whereas often
(29:51):
the conflict is actually guidingus more than positivity ever
would.
Now, it took me so long, I wantto say, to actually understand
that both are equally guides,but in completely different ways
.
Kim Jewell (30:02):
Yes, yes, I agree wholeheartedly, and it took me
even longer.
Gareth Michael (30:10):
We're both on the slow bus.
Kim Jewell (30:13):
But I think I really wanted to emphasize this,
because we're so, all of us areso quick to judge ourselves.
And if we don't understand itand people hear Gareth saying
you know that we actuallywelcome it for the growth, Well,
part of me goes hang on, I'vehad enough now.
(30:34):
Or, like you said, these areactually signs.
And I go no, the universe ispunishing me.
It might be signs, but it'spunishing me because I don't
know what I did wrong and whenwe have those kinds of thoughts,
we're looking at it from thatold, skewered point of view
instead of the new perspective.
That you're saying and so we'resaying.
One of the first steps here toreally get to healthy
(30:58):
confrontation is to shift ourperspective about growth so that
we can, you know, invite it.
Gareth Michael (31:11):
The hesitation has been felt by everyone there.
I was trying to find the rightword.
Kim Jewell (31:15):
I didn't want to say welcome it, because it's like,
oh, not welcome.
Gareth Michael (31:20):
But I think the human part of us is always not
going to want the negativity,the confrontation.
You know, it's just not a partof us that we're going to
naturally want to invite day in,day out.
We all can agree with that,okay.
But I think it's that realityof now knowing and changing that
(31:40):
perspective of it is there toteach me something.
I am not going and looking forconfrontation, as we talked
about.
I'm not trying to startarguments, I'm not trying to do
that for the sake of doing itbut at the same time, if there's
any part of me trying to avoidthat situation, that is where
the growth is.
Kim Jewell (31:58):
Yes, and that's something I did learn early on.
If I want to avoid it, it'sprobably something I need to
look at.
Or the other thing that I usedto say, and still say if you
spot it, you got it.
So if I find myself sitting injudgment of somebody, it's like
whoa, pull back.
And where is that in you thatyou don't want to look at it?
Gareth Michael (32:21):
You don't judge people, you analyze people.
Kim Jewell (32:23):
I do a little bit of both, I can be honest.
Gareth Michael (32:30):
Different perspectives, you know.
Kim Jewell (32:33):
That's right, but it's true.
You know, like even I, I'vejust recently had an uh, an
event where that happened, whereI just was like, no, I don't
want to deal with this person,and so it was through that,
those years of growth where I go, okay.
So what is it about this personthat it's firing something up
(32:55):
inside of me and what is it?
I haven't looked at about meyet, and it doesn't always have
to be a bad thing.
Gareth Michael (33:01):
No, but this is why educating the mind in ways
to allow it to question thecircumstances unfolding in front
of it becomes so important.
Because if you don't have thatlogical information present and
actively working with you, thenit's only inevitable that the
emotions and the experiencesthat are bringing up those
select emotions are never goingto take over is kind of the
(33:23):
point and shut us down and haveus go into the flight freeze
phone responses.
So that's where we so talkabout so often.
Is that educating ourselves onit and training ourselves to ask
questions about what are wefeeling?
What are we thinking?
What is it about thecircumstance?
What conclusions are we jumpingto that are not necessarily
based on fact?
Doing all of this when, whatways are we rejecting ourselves
(33:46):
but saying they're rejecting me,as you're saying?
It's just that's where itbecomes really fascinating and
that's where the goal does lineour pockets.
And then you find that theemotions aren't necessarily even
the problem in that sense atall, but we've been demonizing
them for so long.
A lot of us come fromhouseholds and societies that
didn't let us express and as wetalked about in a different
(34:07):
episode, and then part of thereason is that because if we
have a bad relationship with ouremotions, a bad relationship
with our mind, a badrelationship with it all, then
it's a lot easier for people tomanipulate us, to control us and
to have us be what they need usto be and therefore the cycles
continue until life has adifferent plan for us to start
breaking those cycles for theright reasons.
Kim Jewell (34:27):
I agree, and I think the other thing in finding that
balance, or really learning howto have effective confrontation
, is looking at timing.
So many of us were taught, andI'll bring up a phrase.
That phrase is never go to bedon an argument.
So you know that phrase.
(34:49):
Oh, you should never go to bedarguing.
Well, the truth is, if aconfrontation has happened and
all of these old stuff, all theold stuff has been brought to
the surface, trying to resolvethat in the height of that
emotion is the worst time ever.
No, I don't remember anyoneever saying that to me through
(35:10):
the years, because I alwaysthought you're not supposed to
go to bed on an argument.
So I need to get thiscompletely cleared out and
resolved before I can go tosleep and I can feel better
about it.
But like you said about thefight, flight freeze response
happens in 0.007 of amillisecond.
You're in it.
You're not going to resolveanything, you're just going to
be responding to those oldthings that you were just
(35:33):
previously speaking about.
Gareth Michael (35:39):
Another thing a person's not allowed to leave
the house or leave a place inthe middle of an argument in
case they die, and then you'releft with the guilt of that or
the shame of oh, we left on badterms.
It's the same thing, but in adifferent way, of it's actually
fear driving, trying to dissolvethe confrontation, not because
it's even for the right reasons,of wanting to grow from it.
It's like how do I avoidsomething worse happening than
this confrontation?
Kim Jewell (36:00):
And so what I would say to that is throw those two
sayings right out the window.
Just throw them out the windowbecause they're highly
ineffective.
But and what I have found truefor myself.
Now, I know not everybody hashad the same journey as me, but
what I have found is once, whenI was starting to learn how to
deal with confrontation in ahealthy way, once I have been
(36:22):
triggered into any of those oldresponses, my first response is
stop, excuse me, I just need torun to the restroom for a minute
, because that was my favoriteplace to bring myself back to
the present moment, because Icouldn't possibly have a healthy
confrontation or discussionwith anybody.
If I'm coming from a younger,insecure self that feels like my
(36:45):
life is threatened.
So when I go off and whetherthat's, I just need to go and
have a quick walk, can we?
You know and I think BreneBrown coined this phrase, you
know, can we circle back?
Can we just pause here andcircle back when we both have
calmed down?
Those are effectively moreeffective ways to deal with
(37:06):
confrontation than to keep goingwhen both people are at a peak
emotional state.
Would you agree with that?
Gareth Michael (37:15):
Yeah, absolutely would, and I think it's in
learning those differenttechniques becomes a huge
benefit of beginning to build arelationship with confrontation,
but not only within ourselves,but with the people around us
moving forward.
So maybe we should continuewith, or on that line of
thinking about what's thedifferent ways we can approach
confrontation effectively inday-to-day life so some of the
(37:38):
things that I was just speakingabout I I think are the very
first steps.
Kim Jewell (37:41):
You know you want to before.
I mean, sometimes we don't havethe obviously the time to do
that, but if we know we're goingto consciously confront a
situation, we can take some timeto self reflect and really find
out what is our part in it.
What is it you know we want togain from having this
(38:02):
conversation that we're about tohave?
And then, like I said about thetime, you know, I often say to
people if you want to talk tosomebody about something, why
don't you find a neutral placeto do it?
Why don't you find a time whenneither person is really upset
and say, hey, I just want tocome back to this topic we
talked about before and justshare some of my own thoughts on
(38:26):
it.
It doesn't have to always beabout gearing up for a fight and
it's about then rememberingbecause you've done that
self-reflection, because you'rehere, because you want to
absolutely resolve or be able tomove forward with something,
then it's about remindingyourself to stay calm and if you
find yourself not being calm,give yourself permission to have
(38:47):
that out and go for a walk andcome back to it.
Gareth Michael (38:56):
Diving deeper into it.
I think, especially if we'replanning to have a conversation
with someone or there's certainthings on our mind that we feel
we need to get out or we need todiscuss with that person,
reflecting on the purpose of theconversation or actually you
know for yourself the otherperson, what are you hoping is
the result that comes from this,and often if you are having
this conversation with someonethat you know quite well, you
can anticipate what theirreactions are most likely going
(39:17):
to be.
Why?
Because you've probably knownthis person or these people for
a very long time.
So even if the idea of that isbringing up anxiety or it's
bringing up a lot of certainemotions within yourself, that
actually is showing you whereyou have to do work with
relationship with self and yourrelationship with those emotions
.
And that's actually a reallygood pointer to go to someone
(39:39):
you trust and start workingthrough that before even maybe
going straight to the person tohave that, maybe that potential
confrontational talk.
Because if that anxiety isstill there, it's going to make
actually having the talksomewhat even harder for you to
want to have and you'll want toavoid it and put it off for even
longer if the idea that it canbe such a guide in where we're
(40:02):
still not quite clear whetherthere's confusion within self
about mind, emotions and evenhow our body responds to the
idea of entering thoseconfrontational conversations
and even in staying calm, as youwere saying there, in the end
it just goes to show that ifwe're struggling to do that, if
those emotions are building, itdoes guide us of our emotions
and our relationship with ouremotions present day and where
(40:23):
we maybe need to learn how tocontinue to regulate our
emotions and build arelationship with them.
And there is so many differenttechniques and mindfulness and
meditations and guidedmeditations that we can do
building the education part ofunderstanding what the role of
the emotions are in our system,why they're presenting
(40:43):
themselves the way they are.
Our mind and our emotions aretrying to work together to
decode parts of our past that itdoesn't currently understand.
So it's not trying to encourageyou into a tricky position
present day for the sake ofdoing it.
It wants you to understand selfso that you are able to
confidently go into thesecircumstances where
confrontation is going tocontinue to be present in your
(41:05):
day to day life in order to grow.
So even if the idea ofconfrontation is bringing up
stuff in you today.
That's just showing you whereyou have to unpack before adding
more confrontation to yourmemories and to your past.
Kim Jewell (41:18):
Absolutely, and one of the things when you talk
about staying calm, one of thetricks that I learned because
literally this is what it feltlike for me I know it's not a
trick, but felt like a trick waslearning to actively listen,
and one of the tools I use forthat was every time the other
person opened their mouth, Iwould say to myself I have to
(41:40):
listen to every single word tounderstand exactly what they're
saying, because they might have.
The one thing that I've missedand what that did for me was,
instead of going in trying toprepare what my response was
going to be, as so many peopledo, we're not actually listening
to understand the other personthen, because we're trying to
(42:03):
get our point across.
When we go in and we'reactively listening and we're
really trying to understand whatthe other person is saying,
then we are going to hear thatinformation differently, but it
also gives us the space then toacknowledge what's going on for
them, so they feel heard andvalidated, and then your
(42:26):
response becomes natural andit's much easier for it not to
be so heated.
Gareth Michael (42:32):
And speaking of heated, I think the next few
things go without saying, butit's easier said than done.
As we both know, it's importantwhen we're actively engaged in
confrontation that we try toavoid personal attacks when
possible.
Did you hear that?
Kim Jewell (42:50):
yes, the way that we say that is, we use, I feel,
statements instead of you didthis.
Gareth Michael (43:04):
I think sometimes it moves so quickly
that it's something we have tocircle back to.
Kim Jewell (43:10):
Many times yes.
Gareth Michael (43:13):
But I think it's avoiding the personal attacks
when possible and trying not toadd any fuel to the fire,
basically because it's a veryspecific reason to why you're
bringing the confrontationconversation up to start with.
All you can do is to make surethat you're not the person
engaging in the personal attacks.
I understand that you do nothave control whether the other
(43:35):
person wants to make it personalor find ways to shut the
conversation down, but when thisand when either party starts
making a personal, theconversation is technically over
.
Yes, because at that stageboundaries have been crossed.
It doesn't get better from here.
That's where we need do need tocircle back and come back to it
.
That does not mean giving up onthe concept of having the
conversation, but it's knowingwhen to draw the line of going.
(43:57):
Okay, let's take a breath andcome back to what our common
goal is and what we both wantout of this for each other and
for growth.
Kim Jewell (44:04):
Yeah, and I think the other thing is if we keep in
mind whenever that we arehaving a confrontation or we're
speaking with anyone to try andstay that solution focused.
So solution doesn't mean thatwe're going to be best friends
forever.
So solution doesn't mean thatwe're going to be best friends
forever.
Solution focus means I havebeen able to express my feelings
(44:25):
in a healthy way and state whatis important for me, and I've
been able to listen to what'simportant for the other person
and given them space to statewhat they needed in a healthy
way and then find a commonground that you guys can meet on
.
That is solution focused, likeI know some people would say.
(44:51):
Well, we should be saying howcan we make sure that this never
happens again?
Well, duh, that's going tohappen again.
Are you human?
Like to say how can we makesure this isn't going to happen
again is just a futile statement, because we are humans.
We're fallible, we're going tomake mistakes, but what we want
to do is be able to respect eachother.
Gareth Michael (45:12):
For when confrontation inevitably comes
back around?
How do we be more efficient inour communication with one
another about what's going onmentally and emotionally to meet
the common goal, but to saythat we're never going to have
another argument or aconfrontation or arrive, so to
speak?
Kim Jewell (45:28):
it's just not true it's just la la land that's why
there's.
Gareth Michael (45:32):
So there's always something more to learn
about ourselves individually andtogether as a couple,
regardless of the circumstancesin which the confrontation needs
to exist in that moment.
So I think that summarizes it,though, honestly, is that
confrontation is not if ithappens, it's when it's going to
happen.
Kim Jewell (45:48):
Absolutely, and I think it is about understanding
that that is part of thisjourney, that you can try to
avoid it, but it's going to finda way to find its way to come
up in your life, no matter whatyou do.
So the more that we getcomfortable and this is the
saying that I used to say,getting comfortable in the
(46:09):
uncomfortable, becoming certainin the uncertainty the more that
we're able to do that we can go.
Okay, there's something for mein this.
Can I find whatever that littlegem is?
Gareth Michael (46:21):
I couldn't agree more.
Kim Jewell (46:25):
Thanks so much for listening.
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our online community.
We built it to offer you thecomfort of having a supportive
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Navigate each step of thejourney together with us by
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Thanks again, and I hope youguys are having a lovely week.
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