January 27, 2025 • 32 mins
In this episode of the Practical Spirituality Podcast, Gareth and Kim question long-held beliefs about love, challenging the misconceptions that often color people’s understanding. They explore the line between genuine love and idealized illusions, examining how culture, family, and society shape perceptions. Their discussion sheds light on how codependence or manipulation can often be disguised as love, encouraging listeners to reassess what love truly means in both relationships and self-acceptance.
Gareth and Kim share personal experiences that reveal the transformative impact of recognizing love’s true nature. They emphasize the importance of self-love, the influence of early conditioning, and the mental and emotional maturity needed for healthy connections. By focusing on self-compassion and forgiveness, they show how healing personal wounds can lead to deeper and more meaningful relationships. This conversation invites listeners to redefine their view of love, appreciate its complexities, and see its potential as a powerful force for personal growth and healing.
Become a Community Member at https://community.garethmichael.com/ to join our community and get early access to new episodes, answers to your personal questions and so much more.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 2 (00:12):
Welcome back to the Practical Spirituality Podcast.
We are so excited to have youon this journey with us, where
we explore all elements of mind,body, emotions and soul through
the lens of everyday life.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Hello Kim, Hello Gareth, how are you doing this
morning?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
I am doing well.
How about yourself?
I'm actually pretty excitedabout this topic.
Okay, I think it's going to bean interesting topic.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
For this week's episode.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
We'll be talking about learning to love learning
to unlearn what we thought lovewas, so we could actually learn
what true love is exactly, or atleast try to learn, what true
love is present day?
Speaker 1 (00:54):
yes, and the reason why I think it's such an
interesting topic.
I think it's something we'vetaken for granted in our
understanding and yet it is sodifferent for every single
person, and there's very fewoccasions in life where we've
been asked to take a step backand actually understand the
different layers, the differentapproaches, the different
experiences and how, dependingon the circumstance, on the
(01:17):
person, how love is a verydifferent combination of
emotions that can appear in anyof us.
So I just think, when we startto break it down and talk about
it openly, I think it'll beinteresting to see where this
conversation takes us.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Well, I think it's interesting also because, for
every single person and everysingle person's experience, love
shows up in a different way,based on what their experiences
in life were around this wordlove what they experienced
culturally, what theyexperienced socially, what they
experienced via the TV and typesof shows they watched, or the
(01:55):
type of relationships they sawin their families.
And so, whether we're talkingabout friendship love, we're
talking about sibling love.
Whether we're talking aboutfamily love, whether we're
talking about friendship love,we're talking about sibling love
.
Whether we're talking aboutfamily love, whether we're
talking about romantic love, forevery single person, we think
we have a norm or we think we'reusing the same word, but it has
a completely different meaningfor everybody.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Absolutely, and I think that's what's kind of
staggering, when you start todive into it, of how complex and
simple love can be, dependingon the circumstance and the
understanding.
And not to burst the bubble,it's only when you start
exploring this topic withinourselves and when you look at
the what we define asunconditional love in any of our
(02:38):
lives and you begin to see,actually it's a lot more
conditional than we were everled to believe in the different
friendships, relationships withfamily, and but that's all we
were ever exposed to.
So therefore that's what weconsidered that must be what
love is.
And then you can see that showup in our present day
relationships and wondering whyit's not working out.
But they love me, they say theylove me, I feel love, I think.
(03:00):
So it's really interesting thatwhen you go back, I think so
it's really interesting thatwhen you go back, as you were
saying, to where a lot of thisoriginates, see how it applies
and appears in present day, andthen our willingness to begin to
explore it, our definitions oflove can really evolve and
change when we have thatwillingness to actually dive in
and to question it and then itactually begins to explain the
(03:24):
relationship or love, or lackthereof, we have with ourselves.
That's a very good point.
And then on top of it, and thenit actually begins to explain
the relationship, or love, orlack thereof, we have with
ourselves.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
That's a very good point.
And then, on top of it, most ofus that when we start this
spiritual journey and we startreading all of these books that
are out there and they talkabout spiritual love being
unconditional love, or I sayencompassing all acceptance of
whatever, instead of you know,because when you read a lot of
(03:49):
the books that are out there andI'm not picking on any one
particular one, but it's like Ineed to have unconditional
acceptance if I love you andit's like, well, actually that's
not love and that's anotherpart of this that is
multi-layered with it, but itcomes into it because every
single one of us come intowhatever this conversation is
(04:12):
with an unconscious belief aboutlove based on what we, like you
just said, what we consideredthe norm, with what we grew up
with.
It's quite shocking sometimes torecognize that what we've been
calling love sometimes isactually codependence yeah what
we've been calling love isactually sometimes manipulation
(04:36):
yep and so that can be quitechallenging, like you said, for
very, quite a few of us, myselfincluded and again, actually
experiencing the feeling of loveversus loving the idea of
something.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
That's where, also, a lot of people get caught,
because people in theory canlove the idea of something, but
yet when they're in it orexperiencing it, it's like, oh,
this isn't what I thought it was, but it's ticking the boxes, so
therefore it must be I'm theproblem or it must be me.
It's like the grass is alwaysgreener on the other side.
It's that kind of narrative.
It's like we're never quitecontent with where we're at, or
we always condition what thelove should be or how we were
(05:13):
told it is, and therefore it'slike, okay, why can't I get this
right, or why isn't thisworking for me?
So I must be unlovable or Ican't.
I'm not able to love.
So I must be unlovable or Ican't.
I'm not able to love.
So you can see how it becomesvery complex.
And then we, just in order totry to experience that love that
we've been taught so much, wejust repeat what we've been
(05:35):
exposed to, or the relationshipour parents had, or what we saw
on television or on TV or on theinternet.
You can see how that leads to alot of complications in our
day-to-day lives that we have tounravel, especially after
decades of running thosenarratives.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Absolutely.
And when we say that, oh well,they love me unconditionally, we
don't even know who we are.
So how could someone love usunconditionally if we don't know
who we are or what loveactually means to?
Speaker 1 (06:01):
us.
They love the idea of us.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Well, that is the whole point.
I think that you're saying andI wanted to point that out
because it's so true.
I can remember when I fell inlove the first time and everyone
told me you're just in lovewith the idea of being in love.
Okay, so perhaps I was.
Why burst my bubble at such ayoung age?
It's my first experience withit.
(06:25):
Let me have some fun.
Like I found out, I certainlydid find out that it was based
on my cultural upbringing andwhat had happened to me and what
I thought love was supposed tobe, which was actually
codependence.
But that takes every single oneof us a journey to get to that,
and I think it's in that Ithink the big joke on all of us
(06:50):
is we are born, we think thatwe're born to parents who love
us, but of course, that comeswith the conditions and in order
for us to live out our contract, so to say, we have to be
unloved in order to learn how tolove ourselves again, and so
(07:11):
everything that we have learnedthat we think is love actually
is just another one of thosetrick questions that we have to
go in and unravel so we canfigure out what it really is.
That's my personal opinion andI think that's a bit cynical,
but it's the truth.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Yeah, sounds easy, sounds simple, Sounds like a
really fun topic to dive into.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
I know that a lot of people won't want to agree with
that, but if you really thinkabout it, like when I woke up to
the fact that what I thoughtlove was was really codependence
, it shattered my world.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
It's like a sibling to people's relationship with
spirituality.
It's like we love the idea ofit, we're sold on the idea of it
, but we actually use it as aform of escapism away from a lot
of our realities or traumaticexperiences that we don't know
how to process.
Talk about, feel and love isthe escapism.
It's like if I've fallen inlove then everything goes away.
(08:08):
As you said, I'm in a bubble.
It's amazing.
Nothing can hurt us, nothingcan touch us and that's why you
see with people that they can bein relationship after
relationship after relationship,because they're in search for
this goal at the end of therainbow, or this idea that
they've been sold that if I justfind that right person, then
we'll be in this bubble thatthey'll complete me exactly, um,
(08:31):
but this is why that's notevery single person.
Of course, that's not everyone'sexperience throughout life, but
it's just interesting of whenyou start to break down, where
do those foundations for anyindividual person, of their
definitions and exposure to loveand how that runs in their
day-to-day lives is alwaysfascinating because, as you were
(08:52):
saying at the start, the way inwhich you love your parents
versus your sibling, versus yourpartner, versus your dog,
versus your career, it's alllove.
But when you actually lay themout individually, it couldn't be
more different, exactly.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Yes.
So how does one define?
If we're bursting the idea ofwhat we thought love was,
regardless of what that is foreach person, how does somebody
actually define love?
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Well, I'll let you take the lead.
I'm very curious what yourdefinition of love is.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
I knew you would say that, lead.
I'm very curious what yourdefinition of love is.
I knew you would say that, andso I'm just going to put a
prerequisite out here, that youknow I'm still a work in
progress, so I might notactually have the best
definition, but I think theclosest I can come to it is
because I'm a parent and I havehad children, and so I don't
(09:43):
know if I know whatunconditional love is, because
even though when that child wasfirst presented to me it was so
wondrous and it was so amazingand I knew that there was this
overwhelming sensation there areplenty of times in my parenting
that I haven't necessarilyliked that little individual or
their behavior, but that I wouldgo to any length to work
(10:08):
through what was going on inthat moment.
And so I think it's an actionword as much as it is a feeling
word.
So I think there is a feelingassociated when I love somebody,
but I can't just have thefeeling and think that's enough.
I think that there's a certainamount of action that has to go
(10:28):
into that and then a recognitionthat even though I am putting
up the action, I might not getthe result that I want, and I'm
still going to have the feeling.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Oh, I think that's actually beautifully put because
I think you've said in a simpleway, but you're covering the
complexities in which it canchange depending on the person
circumstance.
I think for me it goes back toactually something you said
earlier at the start, startingthis journey of actually
questioning things internally.
It's quite evident that how canyou love someone else when they
(11:02):
don't know themselves and youdon't know yourself?
So therefore, it goes back toyour exposures, what you've been
through, your definitions, likeanything.
Yes, love can be those emotionsthat we experience, depending
on the circumstances.
Emotions come and go.
It's not a feeling that'sconstantly there, 24, 7, right.
So therefore it's that.
Then, after that once, if we'vedealt with the emotional part of
(11:23):
it, then there's a mental andlogical association with what we
consider when we love somethingbecause it's like, oh, I love
my partner until you find outthey cheated on you, how that
went out the door very quickly.
So that love was conditional, itwas unconditional until it
wasn't right, right, right, andthere's a logical association of
(11:45):
yeah, no, I have a boundarythere.
If that's broken, then that'sout the, that's out the door,
that's out the window.
So my point is is that it'sonly when you actually start to
go through each of those microexamples in all of our lives and
look at it from an emotionalperspective, look at it from a
logical and mental perspectivethat we can understand how much
love changes and evolvesthroughout the decades in any of
(12:07):
our lives and depending on theperson.
But I think, prior to doingthis work, for me it was those
simple basics of having thatdream, that association, that
bubble.
But then I realized that it'sall valid because that is the
human experience, it is all loveand it is all a part of makes
us who we are.
But it's the loving and thenit's also the heartbreak.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
There's something to be experienced with love and
they can be the most definingmoments in any of our lives well
, I think I agree 100%, and oneof the ways that just came up as
you were explaining that is atthe end of my marriage.
So I I luckily for me got toexperience everything you just
spoke about.
And so when my ex cheated on me, it was heartbreaking.
(12:54):
And did I make the choice tostay?
Yes, I did.
Did I feel love for him at thattime?
No, I can honestly say I didn'tlike him very much, but I knew
it was something that I neededto work through In the end.
In the end of that marriage, atthe end of 20 years, what
happened for me and so this isgoing to feel so controversial
(13:15):
to say but what I started towake up to as I started to get
to know myself that I did reallylove this person.
I didn't like this person verymuch, but I did love them and
want the very best for them, andso, therefore, I knew I had to
end the marriage because I didlove that person and because I
(13:38):
did love my children and whythat sounds so controversial I
felt like you know, I know itsounds cliche that you know I
wanted the best for him, but Ialso could see how it was
destroying me and destroying himfor us to stay in this thing
called marriage.
That wasn't working at thattime.
I wasn't in love with him but Iloved him and you know I'm sure
(14:03):
lots of our listeners willunderstand the difference of
that.
But and it wasn't a lightdecision that I made to do that
but the decision itself wasbased on the fact that I cared
enough about this person to seethat it was destroying all of us
.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
But that comes with so much mental and emotional
maturity and with experience ofgoing through it for those 20
years, because Ian Kim and herfirst love wasn't thinking or
feeling that way about loveright no way, and I think that's
where, with age and withexperience, that we do learn a
new kind of love that is morecomplex, it is more layered,
(14:41):
because there are more peopleinvolved.
As you say to your kids, thereis a completely different set of
circumstances and sometimes youlearn that sometimes you love
the person enough to let eachother go.
And then, of course, there isthe other side of it for other
individuals, is that sometimes,even on circumstances where
there is, say, cheating involved, individuals sometimes do love
(15:04):
each other enough to workthrough it and it does work out.
But this is what I mean by forevery single person.
It's incredible how thatchanges and evolves depending on
the circumstance and what'sgoing on within them mentally
and emotionally I agree and Ithink when we look at it.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
So this is where it comes back to really having an
understanding of what love is,because, based on whatever we
experienced growing up, and theideals that we had and then the
way life shows up for us.
I know for me the biggestjourney has been the journey to
loving myself and learning howto have acceptance of me,
(15:44):
learning how to know when I needto make changes, that I don't
want to make, changes in whichGod knows.
I've had to do quite a few ofthose, but I didn't know.
Like so many people, when wethink about how life starts and
I can say this as a parent I hadthat beautiful little baby that
(16:05):
didn't have to do anything forme to love it, just its very
existence just brought me joyand pleasure and just excitement
, and I loved that baby.
But as soon as that babylearned to crawl, I started
hearing no, no, don't do that.
No, you can't do that.
Oh, look at you, good job.
(16:25):
And so already the conditioninghad begun by that point, because
whether we want to conditionour children or not and I'm
speaking from my point of view Imean my parents didn't know
either.
They didn't realize they wereconditioning me to what love and
acceptance actually was.
And so then, based on whathappened in that environment, is
(16:48):
where we get our truth aboutwhat we think love is and
whether we are lovable orwhether we are not lovable.
In my case, I had a firm beliefthat I was not lovable and all
of my experiences up until thepoint in that marriage that I
said, regardless of what'shappening in my marriage, I'm
going to learn how to love me.
(17:08):
I'm no longer going to rely onsomebody else's reflection back
or what they're saying back tome.
I want to find out what thismeans for me, with me, which
sounds confusing, but that'swhat I had to do, and it was
when I started to reallyactually find out how to care
about me that I started to seethe injustice of what I was
(17:32):
doing in that marriage.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (17:35):
No, it makes a lot of sense and I think it's good to
actually dive in to thosefoundations of self-love and the
journey that takes us on.
Being on the spiritual journeymeaning starting to question in
different ways and want toexplore, because I think,
regardless of what experiencewe've been exposed to, what
individuals we've been exposedto, it always goes back to
actually showing us way moreabout ourselves than it ever did
(17:57):
the other person.
Let's take a step back fromthis week's episode and share
with everyone what we've been upto behind the scenes.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
We're really excited to be able to finally offer the
Gareth Michael community to eachof you.
The community offers a range ofbenefits, including access to
our live events, weekly podcastepisodes, articles,
self-checking questions, as wellas a community of individuals
you can connect with andinteract with along the way.
It's designed to offer yousupport, guidance and a safe
(18:31):
space on a day-to-day basis.
We'd love to have you join ourglobal community of like-minded
individuals.
That website address, again, iswwwgarethmichaelcom.
Now, let's get back to thatepisode, shall we?
Michaelcom?
Now, let's get back to thatepisode, shall we?
So?
As someone said to me early on,when I was discussing this a few
(18:54):
years back quite a few yearsback they said you're never
really in love with the otherperson.
You're always in love with theidea you hold in your head of
the other person.
And I was like that's not true.
Yes, it is.
I hate it when that stuff comestrue, but really do not like
(19:15):
that moment when that happens.
But it's like okay, because wecan't possibly truthfully know
every aspect of the other person.
It is always about learningabout ourselves in so many
different ways.
Learning about ourselves in somany different ways, but if we
don't have a foundation ofcaring for ourself, loving
ourself, knowing what our worthactually is, then we are always
(19:38):
looking outside of ourselves forthat reflection instead of
seeing it in ourselves.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
On center that we kind of discussed in some of the
previous episodes there.
I do think that that is kind ofsometimes the divine design of
any of our human experiences isthat we have to go through many
years of actually having a notso solid foundation with
ourselves that later in lifethat we actually have the
ability to question, to continueto learn more about ourselves
(20:06):
and to grow in these differentways.
But that is a part of the wholespiritual experience and
journey and when we do that weend up connecting with self.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
And it's not for the lighthearted sometimes because
you know it's great to say Iwant to have the self-worth.
It's really complicated to goin and understand the ins and
outs of why I don't feel thatI'm worth more or not and that
in itself is such a big journey.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
Well, I don't think it's a choice, as we both know.
No, as you said many a time,we're often brought in this
journey kicking and screaming,and we find ourselves reading
certain books, listening tocertain podcasts, talking to
certain individuals, becauselife hasn't given us any other
options.
We've used all the other optionsof avoidance that we did have
(20:58):
access to, and now we no longerhave that option to.
So, therefore, the only way wecan move forward is by going
inwards, and by going inwards itgives us a slight understanding
what's going on outwards also.
So that's what's fascinatingabout it is that, at the end of
the day, we come in this worldon our own, we go out of this
world on our own and, yes,during that time we're exposed
(21:20):
to a lot of differentindividuals, but it's this
journey always brings us back toself and mind, body, emotions
and soul.
So when you actually becomeaware of that, the relationship
or the new relationship youstart to build with yourself, I
think it can be quite incredible, but, as you said, it's not for
the faint hearted.
But life has its own way ofguiding us, of what we need to
(21:41):
be exposed to at the right timeto be able to start building
that relationship.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
And really starting to understand that I think I
don't know for sure, but I'veworked with so many people.
I can see that we often thinkit's easy to learn how to start
to find worth within ourself andvery quickly that critic shows
up, or the criticism shows upwhich has been with us since day
(22:07):
dot, because there are thingsthat we had to learn, those
experiences we had to go through, and so it becomes very
habitual.
That is one of for me I'm goingto speak.
For me was one of the biggestthings to break and still
breaking.
I'll use that present tensebecause there will be no one on
(22:27):
this planet that will be moreanalytical of self than me.
Notice how I said that kindlyto myself.
Because I was going to say morecritical of myself, but the
truth is I do.
Once I started this journey andI started to understand it was
an inside job.
(22:48):
I don't go in there tocriticize myself, but the
pattern, the habit ofcriticizing myself has been
there for so long that that'susually the first thing that
happens.
And to then try and bringcompassion into that and go okay
, instead of beating myself up,that like, did that work when
your dad used to beat you?
No, so how about you?
(23:09):
Don't beat you?
It becomes the thing.
So that is what I think mostpeople find challenging and why
they want to give up because itfeels too challenging.
And the rush of someone else inthose beginning moments of any
relationship where it feels goodand everybody's got their best
face on and someone's payingattention to us, that feels far
(23:31):
easier than dealing with thatcriticism, um, or trying to find
worth within ourselves.
That's why a lot of people gooh, I'll just go out here and
grab it from out here.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Because it's easier For a period of time.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
That's true.
It is a journey and that is why, along the way sometimes we
often mention this on theseepisodes is that we do need
support from time to time tohelp us build those skill sets,
be able to have thatself-worthworth, to understand
that inner critic and to give usexamples in different ways we
can begin to show ourselvesself-compassion and daily micro
(24:08):
tasks, because it's not always abig gesture that is needed,
it's actually doing in the manyways and doing our best to be
consistent, and that is thequickest way we can actually
build a more loving relationshipwith self and continue to
question why our definitions oflove are appearing in the way
they are because, again, oursubconscious or conscious mind
(24:29):
it's not going to open up andgive us those answers and it's
just in a safe and lovingenvironment to be able to give
us that information to be ableto work with, then to apply to
ourselves and to the peoplearound us.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
At the beginning of my journey, because there was so
much self-criticism, there waspretty much self-hatred, and so
when I realized it was an insidejob and I had to figure out how
to go within, when, well, youknow, like I really didn't want
to do that, one of the firstthings I started to do was, as
(25:05):
you guys have heard me say,trying to train my brain to stay
here instead of in thenarrative all the time.
So we can call that the racingthoughts, the obsessive thoughts
, the constantly being focusedon what everybody else is doing,
the comparison.
All of that is part of okay,wait, that's out there.
I need to come in here.
(25:26):
Stop that and when.
In the process of stopping that, one of the things that I
personally did was because Inever heard people.
I was always in that protectivemode.
When people would try and speakto me.
As they were speaking, I wouldbe calculating whatever it was I
was supposed to be saying inresponse, so that they didn't
(25:48):
leave or they didn't start afight or whatever it was, to
every single word that anybodyever said to me, as if my life
depended on it, because theymight say the one thing that
(26:10):
will click inside of me, thatwould stop that litany of
self-hatred that I had runningat that time.
But in listening to others,what happened is it gave enough
space in the criticism for me toactually hear the parts of me
that were wounded, that neededattention, that prior to that I
didn't really even know werethere because I just wanted to
annihilate all of that.
(26:30):
Does that make sense?
And so for me, that was part ofit is, we say, learning to
listen and have empathy withself.
I didn't know how to do that,so I started listening and
having empathy for others, whichallowed me to have that empathy
for myself.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
But I think this was interesting.
Even when we're talking aboutlove, let it be building that
relationship with self in thatway and even how the
relationships that we havearound us and how love continues
to evolve and change in thosealso.
But when we're doing thejourney on self and starting to
look at those wounds that we'vehad from over the years, from
(27:10):
different experiences, it can bevery hard at times to as you
were talking about in your ownway to allow ourselves to be
vulnerable to let new people in.
We just have so much trauma andbaggage at times that we don't
even let us expose ourselves toourselves, never mind actually
continuing to open up to others.
(27:30):
So I think, before being evenreally able to connect with
other people present day andmoving forward, we do have to go
back sometimes and understandthe journey we still have to do
to heal ourselves.
That is a loving gesture withinitself.
So we need to.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
A lot of people in the industry say we need to find
ways to move past our hurt andfind forgiveness in a lot of
different ways you know I have Ihave a strong opinion on that,
as we've talked about inprevious episodes, and so I
think the forgiveness that needsto be found is with ourself,
and if we have forgiven ourselffor those past wounds and hurts
(28:11):
and the perceptions that wepicked up with, the beliefs that
we picked up about ourselves orothers, then the relationship
with others flow.
You know, I know there's a bigbelief out there that we need to
forgive ourselves and another,but I think if we are able to go
in and forgive ourselves forwhat we believed about the
(28:31):
situation, then there tends tobe that understanding and
forgiveness naturally.
So that's why I don't focus onforgiving another.
I think, even if you break downthe word forgiving to two words
, two syllables, forgiving it'sabout giving to ourselves that
(28:52):
which we've been seeking outsideof ourselves for our entire
life.
So that gives forgiving a wholedifferent meaning, and I think
until we give that love,compassion, empathy to ourselves
, we'll never be able to give itto another in any form, whether
that's friendship, loverelationships, sibling
(29:15):
relationships, children.
I think it's one of thosethings that we're constantly
building on, but it's in doingthat that we can then turn
around and give it to someoneelse.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
I think this is a topic I would call a food for
thought topic.
I agree, because it's notsomething that you can
necessarily get wrong and we'reall on the same journey of
discovering, uncovering,rewriting our understandings
about love in any of our lives,and it's only when you have
these kind of open discussionsthat it makes you actually just
(29:48):
self-reflect on your ownindividual journey with love and
the ways it has beenconditional, unconditional, the
ways in which you experience itin mind, body, emotion, soul.
It's just such a fascinatingtopic because I think it's very
easy to oversimplify it in mind,body, emotion, soul.
It's just such a fascinatingtopic because I think it's very
easy to oversimplify it at timesand say, oh, love's just an
emotion and you experience it invery set circumstances, whereas
actually it's so beautiful inits complexity that I just want
(30:13):
to have this conversationbecause I don't think we give it
enough credit at times or giveit enough time to explore it
within ourselves.
That can be incredibly healingand it'll always bring it back
to ourselves and what we've beensearching for, told to search
for externally for so long.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
I agree completely with that and I think one of the
really beautiful parts about itbeing food for thought is every
single one of us at some level,has to go through this thought
process about what love actuallyis.
What does it mean to us?
How do we want love to show upin our life?
How do we want to be thatrepresentation of love in
(30:51):
whatever that means to us?
And there is so manycomplexities, sometimes people
you know they don't know whereto start and so, just beginning
to look at it from the differentaspects and questioning, well,
what kind of love has alwaysshown up in my life?
I think that's, and how would Iwant it to be?
Speaker 1 (31:12):
Because I think we all know what love is until we
don't, until what we thought waslove doesn't feel like love
anymore.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Do you know that?
Speaker 1 (31:21):
often happens without our permission, as we all have
experienced, and that's wherethe emotional maturity, mental
maturity, physical maturitycomes along.
So life's constantly findingnew ways to redefine it for
ourselves, and I think that'sthe beauty and the mystery at
times.
But it's often right in ourfaces, just we've never been
told to open our eyes and toexplore it.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
Exactly, exactly.
Thanks so much for listening.
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(32:14):
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(32:34):
wwwgarethmichaelcom.
Thanks again, and I hope youguys are having a lovely week.
Welcome back to the Practical Spirituality Podcast.
We are so excited to have youon this journey with us, where
we explore all elements of mind,body, emotions and soul through
the lens of everyday life.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Hello Kim, Hello Gareth, how are you doing this
morning?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
I am doing well.
How about yourself?
I'm actually pretty excitedabout this topic.
Okay, I think it's going to bean interesting topic.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
For this week's episode.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
We'll be talking about learning to love learning
to unlearn what we thought lovewas, so we could actually learn
what true love is exactly, or atleast try to learn, what true
love is present day?
Speaker 1 (00:54):
yes, and the reason why I think it's such an
interesting topic.
I think it's something we'vetaken for granted in our
understanding and yet it is sodifferent for every single
person, and there's very fewoccasions in life where we've
been asked to take a step backand actually understand the
different layers, the differentapproaches, the different
experiences and how, dependingon the circumstance, on the
(01:17):
person, how love is a verydifferent combination of
emotions that can appear in anyof us.
So I just think, when we startto break it down and talk about
it openly, I think it'll beinteresting to see where this
conversation takes us.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Well, I think it's interesting also because, for
every single person and everysingle person's experience, love
shows up in a different way,based on what their experiences
in life were around this wordlove what they experienced
culturally, what theyexperienced socially, what they
experienced via the TV and typesof shows they watched, or the
(01:55):
type of relationships they sawin their families.
And so, whether we're talkingabout friendship love, we're
talking about sibling love.
Whether we're talking aboutfamily love, whether we're
talking about friendship love,we're talking about sibling love
.
Whether we're talking aboutfamily love, whether we're
talking about romantic love, forevery single person, we think
we have a norm or we think we'reusing the same word, but it has
a completely different meaningfor everybody.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Absolutely, and I think that's what's kind of
staggering, when you start todive into it, of how complex and
simple love can be, dependingon the circumstance and the
understanding.
And not to burst the bubble,it's only when you start
exploring this topic withinourselves and when you look at
the what we define asunconditional love in any of our
(02:38):
lives and you begin to see,actually it's a lot more
conditional than we were everled to believe in the different
friendships, relationships withfamily, and but that's all we
were ever exposed to.
So therefore that's what weconsidered that must be what
love is.
And then you can see that showup in our present day
relationships and wondering whyit's not working out.
But they love me, they say theylove me, I feel love, I think.
(03:00):
So it's really interesting thatwhen you go back, I think so
it's really interesting thatwhen you go back, as you were
saying, to where a lot of thisoriginates, see how it applies
and appears in present day, andthen our willingness to begin to
explore it, our definitions oflove can really evolve and
change when we have thatwillingness to actually dive in
and to question it and then itactually begins to explain the
(03:24):
relationship or love, or lackthereof, we have with ourselves.
That's a very good point.
And then on top of it, and thenit actually begins to explain
the relationship, or love, orlack thereof, we have with
ourselves.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
That's a very good point.
And then, on top of it, most ofus that when we start this
spiritual journey and we startreading all of these books that
are out there and they talkabout spiritual love being
unconditional love, or I sayencompassing all acceptance of
whatever, instead of you know,because when you read a lot of
(03:49):
the books that are out there andI'm not picking on any one
particular one, but it's like Ineed to have unconditional
acceptance if I love you andit's like, well, actually that's
not love and that's anotherpart of this that is
multi-layered with it, but itcomes into it because every
single one of us come intowhatever this conversation is
(04:12):
with an unconscious belief aboutlove based on what we, like you
just said, what we consideredthe norm, with what we grew up
with.
It's quite shocking sometimes torecognize that what we've been
calling love sometimes isactually codependence yeah what
we've been calling love isactually sometimes manipulation
(04:36):
yep and so that can be quitechallenging, like you said, for
very, quite a few of us, myselfincluded and again, actually
experiencing the feeling of loveversus loving the idea of
something.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
That's where, also, a lot of people get caught,
because people in theory canlove the idea of something, but
yet when they're in it orexperiencing it, it's like, oh,
this isn't what I thought it was, but it's ticking the boxes, so
therefore it must be I'm theproblem or it must be me.
It's like the grass is alwaysgreener on the other side.
It's that kind of narrative.
It's like we're never quitecontent with where we're at, or
we always condition what thelove should be or how we were
(05:13):
told it is, and therefore it'slike, okay, why can't I get this
right, or why isn't thisworking for me?
So I must be unlovable or Ican't.
I'm not able to love.
So I must be unlovable or Ican't.
I'm not able to love.
So you can see how it becomesvery complex.
And then we, just in order totry to experience that love that
we've been taught so much, wejust repeat what we've been
(05:35):
exposed to, or the relationshipour parents had, or what we saw
on television or on TV or on theinternet.
You can see how that leads to alot of complications in our
day-to-day lives that we have tounravel, especially after
decades of running thosenarratives.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Absolutely.
And when we say that, oh well,they love me unconditionally, we
don't even know who we are.
So how could someone love usunconditionally if we don't know
who we are or what loveactually means to?
Speaker 1 (06:01):
us.
They love the idea of us.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Well, that is the whole point.
I think that you're saying andI wanted to point that out
because it's so true.
I can remember when I fell inlove the first time and everyone
told me you're just in lovewith the idea of being in love.
Okay, so perhaps I was.
Why burst my bubble at such ayoung age?
It's my first experience withit.
(06:25):
Let me have some fun.
Like I found out, I certainlydid find out that it was based
on my cultural upbringing andwhat had happened to me and what
I thought love was supposed tobe, which was actually
codependence.
But that takes every single oneof us a journey to get to that,
and I think it's in that Ithink the big joke on all of us
(06:50):
is we are born, we think thatwe're born to parents who love
us, but of course, that comeswith the conditions and in order
for us to live out our contract, so to say, we have to be
unloved in order to learn how tolove ourselves again, and so
(07:11):
everything that we have learnedthat we think is love actually
is just another one of thosetrick questions that we have to
go in and unravel so we canfigure out what it really is.
That's my personal opinion andI think that's a bit cynical,
but it's the truth.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Yeah, sounds easy, sounds simple, Sounds like a
really fun topic to dive into.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
I know that a lot of people won't want to agree with
that, but if you really thinkabout it, like when I woke up to
the fact that what I thoughtlove was was really codependence
, it shattered my world.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
It's like a sibling to people's relationship with
spirituality.
It's like we love the idea ofit, we're sold on the idea of it
, but we actually use it as aform of escapism away from a lot
of our realities or traumaticexperiences that we don't know
how to process.
Talk about, feel and love isthe escapism.
It's like if I've fallen inlove then everything goes away.
(08:08):
As you said, I'm in a bubble.
It's amazing.
Nothing can hurt us, nothingcan touch us and that's why you
see with people that they can bein relationship after
relationship after relationship,because they're in search for
this goal at the end of therainbow, or this idea that
they've been sold that if I justfind that right person, then
we'll be in this bubble thatthey'll complete me exactly, um,
(08:31):
but this is why that's notevery single person.
Of course, that's not everyone'sexperience throughout life, but
it's just interesting of whenyou start to break down, where
do those foundations for anyindividual person, of their
definitions and exposure to loveand how that runs in their
day-to-day lives is alwaysfascinating because, as you were
(08:52):
saying at the start, the way inwhich you love your parents
versus your sibling, versus yourpartner, versus your dog,
versus your career, it's alllove.
But when you actually lay themout individually, it couldn't be
more different, exactly.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Yes.
So how does one define?
If we're bursting the idea ofwhat we thought love was,
regardless of what that is foreach person, how does somebody
actually define love?
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Well, I'll let you take the lead.
I'm very curious what yourdefinition of love is.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
I knew you would say that, lead.
I'm very curious what yourdefinition of love is.
I knew you would say that, andso I'm just going to put a
prerequisite out here, that youknow I'm still a work in
progress, so I might notactually have the best
definition, but I think theclosest I can come to it is
because I'm a parent and I havehad children, and so I don't
(09:43):
know if I know whatunconditional love is, because
even though when that child wasfirst presented to me it was so
wondrous and it was so amazingand I knew that there was this
overwhelming sensation there areplenty of times in my parenting
that I haven't necessarilyliked that little individual or
their behavior, but that I wouldgo to any length to work
(10:08):
through what was going on inthat moment.
And so I think it's an actionword as much as it is a feeling
word.
So I think there is a feelingassociated when I love somebody,
but I can't just have thefeeling and think that's enough.
I think that there's a certainamount of action that has to go
(10:28):
into that and then a recognitionthat even though I am putting
up the action, I might not getthe result that I want, and I'm
still going to have the feeling.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Oh, I think that's actually beautifully put because
I think you've said in a simpleway, but you're covering the
complexities in which it canchange depending on the person
circumstance.
I think for me it goes back toactually something you said
earlier at the start, startingthis journey of actually
questioning things internally.
It's quite evident that how canyou love someone else when they
(11:02):
don't know themselves and youdon't know yourself?
So therefore, it goes back toyour exposures, what you've been
through, your definitions, likeanything.
Yes, love can be those emotionsthat we experience, depending
on the circumstances.
Emotions come and go.
It's not a feeling that'sconstantly there, 24, 7, right.
So therefore it's that.
Then, after that once, if we'vedealt with the emotional part of
(11:23):
it, then there's a mental andlogical association with what we
consider when we love somethingbecause it's like, oh, I love
my partner until you find outthey cheated on you, how that
went out the door very quickly.
So that love was conditional, itwas unconditional until it
wasn't right, right, right, andthere's a logical association of
(11:45):
yeah, no, I have a boundarythere.
If that's broken, then that'sout the, that's out the door,
that's out the window.
So my point is is that it'sonly when you actually start to
go through each of those microexamples in all of our lives and
look at it from an emotionalperspective, look at it from a
logical and mental perspectivethat we can understand how much
love changes and evolvesthroughout the decades in any of
(12:07):
our lives and depending on theperson.
But I think, prior to doingthis work, for me it was those
simple basics of having thatdream, that association, that
bubble.
But then I realized that it'sall valid because that is the
human experience, it is all loveand it is all a part of makes
us who we are.
But it's the loving and thenit's also the heartbreak.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
There's something to be experienced with love and
they can be the most definingmoments in any of our lives well
, I think I agree 100%, and oneof the ways that just came up as
you were explaining that is atthe end of my marriage.
So I I luckily for me got toexperience everything you just
spoke about.
And so when my ex cheated on me, it was heartbreaking.
(12:54):
And did I make the choice tostay?
Yes, I did.
Did I feel love for him at thattime?
No, I can honestly say I didn'tlike him very much, but I knew
it was something that I neededto work through In the end.
In the end of that marriage, atthe end of 20 years, what
happened for me and so this isgoing to feel so controversial
(13:15):
to say but what I started towake up to as I started to get
to know myself that I did reallylove this person.
I didn't like this person verymuch, but I did love them and
want the very best for them, andso, therefore, I knew I had to
end the marriage because I didlove that person and because I
(13:38):
did love my children and whythat sounds so controversial I
felt like you know, I know itsounds cliche that you know I
wanted the best for him, but Ialso could see how it was
destroying me and destroying himfor us to stay in this thing
called marriage.
That wasn't working at thattime.
I wasn't in love with him but Iloved him and you know I'm sure
(14:03):
lots of our listeners willunderstand the difference of
that.
But and it wasn't a lightdecision that I made to do that
but the decision itself wasbased on the fact that I cared
enough about this person to seethat it was destroying all of us
.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
But that comes with so much mental and emotional
maturity and with experience ofgoing through it for those 20
years, because Ian Kim and herfirst love wasn't thinking or
feeling that way about loveright no way, and I think that's
where, with age and withexperience, that we do learn a
new kind of love that is morecomplex, it is more layered,
(14:41):
because there are more peopleinvolved.
As you say to your kids, thereis a completely different set of
circumstances and sometimes youlearn that sometimes you love
the person enough to let eachother go.
And then, of course, there isthe other side of it for other
individuals, is that sometimes,even on circumstances where
there is, say, cheating involved, individuals sometimes do love
(15:04):
each other enough to workthrough it and it does work out.
But this is what I mean by forevery single person.
It's incredible how thatchanges and evolves depending on
the circumstance and what'sgoing on within them mentally
and emotionally I agree and Ithink when we look at it.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
So this is where it comes back to really having an
understanding of what love is,because, based on whatever we
experienced growing up, and theideals that we had and then the
way life shows up for us.
I know for me the biggestjourney has been the journey to
loving myself and learning howto have acceptance of me,
(15:44):
learning how to know when I needto make changes, that I don't
want to make, changes in whichGod knows.
I've had to do quite a few ofthose, but I didn't know.
Like so many people, when wethink about how life starts and
I can say this as a parent I hadthat beautiful little baby that
(16:05):
didn't have to do anything forme to love it, just its very
existence just brought me joyand pleasure and just excitement
, and I loved that baby.
But as soon as that babylearned to crawl, I started
hearing no, no, don't do that.
No, you can't do that.
Oh, look at you, good job.
(16:25):
And so already the conditioninghad begun by that point, because
whether we want to conditionour children or not and I'm
speaking from my point of view Imean my parents didn't know
either.
They didn't realize they wereconditioning me to what love and
acceptance actually was.
And so then, based on whathappened in that environment, is
(16:48):
where we get our truth aboutwhat we think love is and
whether we are lovable orwhether we are not lovable.
In my case, I had a firm beliefthat I was not lovable and all
of my experiences up until thepoint in that marriage that I
said, regardless of what'shappening in my marriage, I'm
going to learn how to love me.
(17:08):
I'm no longer going to rely onsomebody else's reflection back
or what they're saying back tome.
I want to find out what thismeans for me, with me, which
sounds confusing, but that'swhat I had to do, and it was
when I started to reallyactually find out how to care
about me that I started to seethe injustice of what I was
(17:32):
doing in that marriage.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (17:35):
No, it makes a lot of sense and I think it's good to
actually dive in to thosefoundations of self-love and the
journey that takes us on.
Being on the spiritual journeymeaning starting to question in
different ways and want toexplore, because I think,
regardless of what experiencewe've been exposed to, what
individuals we've been exposedto, it always goes back to
actually showing us way moreabout ourselves than it ever did
(17:57):
the other person.
Let's take a step back fromthis week's episode and share
with everyone what we've been upto behind the scenes.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
We're really excited to be able to finally offer the
Gareth Michael community to eachof you.
The community offers a range ofbenefits, including access to
our live events, weekly podcastepisodes, articles,
self-checking questions, as wellas a community of individuals
you can connect with andinteract with along the way.
It's designed to offer yousupport, guidance and a safe
(18:31):
space on a day-to-day basis.
We'd love to have you join ourglobal community of like-minded
individuals.
That website address, again, iswwwgarethmichaelcom.
Now, let's get back to thatepisode, shall we?
Michaelcom?
Now, let's get back to thatepisode, shall we?
So?
As someone said to me early on,when I was discussing this a few
(18:54):
years back quite a few yearsback they said you're never
really in love with the otherperson.
You're always in love with theidea you hold in your head of
the other person.
And I was like that's not true.
Yes, it is.
I hate it when that stuff comestrue, but really do not like
(19:15):
that moment when that happens.
But it's like okay, because wecan't possibly truthfully know
every aspect of the other person.
It is always about learningabout ourselves in so many
different ways.
Learning about ourselves in somany different ways, but if we
don't have a foundation ofcaring for ourself, loving
ourself, knowing what our worthactually is, then we are always
(19:38):
looking outside of ourselves forthat reflection instead of
seeing it in ourselves.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
On center that we kind of discussed in some of the
previous episodes there.
I do think that that is kind ofsometimes the divine design of
any of our human experiences isthat we have to go through many
years of actually having a notso solid foundation with
ourselves that later in lifethat we actually have the
ability to question, to continueto learn more about ourselves
(20:06):
and to grow in these differentways.
But that is a part of the wholespiritual experience and
journey and when we do that weend up connecting with self.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
And it's not for the lighthearted sometimes because
you know it's great to say Iwant to have the self-worth.
It's really complicated to goin and understand the ins and
outs of why I don't feel thatI'm worth more or not and that
in itself is such a big journey.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
Well, I don't think it's a choice, as we both know.
No, as you said many a time,we're often brought in this
journey kicking and screaming,and we find ourselves reading
certain books, listening tocertain podcasts, talking to
certain individuals, becauselife hasn't given us any other
options.
We've used all the other optionsof avoidance that we did have
(20:58):
access to, and now we no longerhave that option to.
So, therefore, the only way wecan move forward is by going
inwards, and by going inwards itgives us a slight understanding
what's going on outwards also.
So that's what's fascinatingabout it is that, at the end of
the day, we come in this worldon our own, we go out of this
world on our own and, yes,during that time we're exposed
(21:20):
to a lot of differentindividuals, but it's this
journey always brings us back toself and mind, body, emotions
and soul.
So when you actually becomeaware of that, the relationship
or the new relationship youstart to build with yourself, I
think it can be quite incredible, but, as you said, it's not for
the faint hearted.
But life has its own way ofguiding us, of what we need to
(21:41):
be exposed to at the right timeto be able to start building
that relationship.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
And really starting to understand that I think I
don't know for sure, but I'veworked with so many people.
I can see that we often thinkit's easy to learn how to start
to find worth within ourself andvery quickly that critic shows
up, or the criticism shows upwhich has been with us since day
(22:07):
dot, because there are thingsthat we had to learn, those
experiences we had to go through, and so it becomes very
habitual.
That is one of for me I'm goingto speak.
For me was one of the biggestthings to break and still
breaking.
I'll use that present tensebecause there will be no one on
(22:27):
this planet that will be moreanalytical of self than me.
Notice how I said that kindlyto myself.
Because I was going to say morecritical of myself, but the
truth is I do.
Once I started this journey andI started to understand it was
an inside job.
(22:48):
I don't go in there tocriticize myself, but the
pattern, the habit ofcriticizing myself has been
there for so long that that'susually the first thing that
happens.
And to then try and bringcompassion into that and go okay
, instead of beating myself up,that like, did that work when
your dad used to beat you?
No, so how about you?
(23:09):
Don't beat you?
It becomes the thing.
So that is what I think mostpeople find challenging and why
they want to give up because itfeels too challenging.
And the rush of someone else inthose beginning moments of any
relationship where it feels goodand everybody's got their best
face on and someone's payingattention to us, that feels far
(23:31):
easier than dealing with thatcriticism, um, or trying to find
worth within ourselves.
That's why a lot of people gooh, I'll just go out here and
grab it from out here.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Because it's easier For a period of time.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
That's true.
It is a journey and that is why, along the way sometimes we
often mention this on theseepisodes is that we do need
support from time to time tohelp us build those skill sets,
be able to have thatself-worthworth, to understand
that inner critic and to give usexamples in different ways we
can begin to show ourselvesself-compassion and daily micro
(24:08):
tasks, because it's not always abig gesture that is needed,
it's actually doing in the manyways and doing our best to be
consistent, and that is thequickest way we can actually
build a more loving relationshipwith self and continue to
question why our definitions oflove are appearing in the way
they are because, again, oursubconscious or conscious mind
(24:29):
it's not going to open up andgive us those answers and it's
just in a safe and lovingenvironment to be able to give
us that information to be ableto work with, then to apply to
ourselves and to the peoplearound us.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
At the beginning of my journey, because there was so
much self-criticism, there waspretty much self-hatred, and so
when I realized it was an insidejob and I had to figure out how
to go within, when, well, youknow, like I really didn't want
to do that, one of the firstthings I started to do was, as
(25:05):
you guys have heard me say,trying to train my brain to stay
here instead of in thenarrative all the time.
So we can call that the racingthoughts, the obsessive thoughts
, the constantly being focusedon what everybody else is doing,
the comparison.
All of that is part of okay,wait, that's out there.
I need to come in here.
(25:26):
Stop that and when.
In the process of stopping that, one of the things that I
personally did was because Inever heard people.
I was always in that protectivemode.
When people would try and speakto me.
As they were speaking, I wouldbe calculating whatever it was I
was supposed to be saying inresponse, so that they didn't
(25:48):
leave or they didn't start afight or whatever it was, to
every single word that anybodyever said to me, as if my life
depended on it, because theymight say the one thing that
(26:10):
will click inside of me, thatwould stop that litany of
self-hatred that I had runningat that time.
But in listening to others,what happened is it gave enough
space in the criticism for me toactually hear the parts of me
that were wounded, that neededattention, that prior to that I
didn't really even know werethere because I just wanted to
annihilate all of that.
(26:30):
Does that make sense?
And so for me, that was part ofit is, we say, learning to
listen and have empathy withself.
I didn't know how to do that,so I started listening and
having empathy for others, whichallowed me to have that empathy
for myself.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
But I think this was interesting.
Even when we're talking aboutlove, let it be building that
relationship with self in thatway and even how the
relationships that we havearound us and how love continues
to evolve and change in thosealso.
But when we're doing thejourney on self and starting to
look at those wounds that we'vehad from over the years, from
(27:10):
different experiences, it can bevery hard at times to as you
were talking about in your ownway to allow ourselves to be
vulnerable to let new people in.
We just have so much trauma andbaggage at times that we don't
even let us expose ourselves toourselves, never mind actually
continuing to open up to others.
(27:30):
So I think, before being evenreally able to connect with
other people present day andmoving forward, we do have to go
back sometimes and understandthe journey we still have to do
to heal ourselves.
That is a loving gesture withinitself.
So we need to.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
A lot of people in the industry say we need to find
ways to move past our hurt andfind forgiveness in a lot of
different ways you know I have Ihave a strong opinion on that,
as we've talked about inprevious episodes, and so I
think the forgiveness that needsto be found is with ourself,
and if we have forgiven ourselffor those past wounds and hurts
(28:11):
and the perceptions that wepicked up with, the beliefs that
we picked up about ourselves orothers, then the relationship
with others flow.
You know, I know there's a bigbelief out there that we need to
forgive ourselves and another,but I think if we are able to go
in and forgive ourselves forwhat we believed about the
(28:31):
situation, then there tends tobe that understanding and
forgiveness naturally.
So that's why I don't focus onforgiving another.
I think, even if you break downthe word forgiving to two words
, two syllables, forgiving it'sabout giving to ourselves that
(28:52):
which we've been seeking outsideof ourselves for our entire
life.
So that gives forgiving a wholedifferent meaning, and I think
until we give that love,compassion, empathy to ourselves
, we'll never be able to give itto another in any form, whether
that's friendship, loverelationships, sibling
(29:15):
relationships, children.
I think it's one of thosethings that we're constantly
building on, but it's in doingthat that we can then turn
around and give it to someoneelse.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
I think this is a topic I would call a food for
thought topic.
I agree, because it's notsomething that you can
necessarily get wrong and we'reall on the same journey of
discovering, uncovering,rewriting our understandings
about love in any of our lives,and it's only when you have
these kind of open discussionsthat it makes you actually just
(29:48):
self-reflect on your ownindividual journey with love and
the ways it has beenconditional, unconditional, the
ways in which you experience itin mind, body, emotion, soul.
It's just such a fascinatingtopic because I think it's very
easy to oversimplify it in mind,body, emotion, soul.
It's just such a fascinatingtopic because I think it's very
easy to oversimplify it at timesand say, oh, love's just an
emotion and you experience it invery set circumstances, whereas
actually it's so beautiful inits complexity that I just want
(30:13):
to have this conversationbecause I don't think we give it
enough credit at times or giveit enough time to explore it
within ourselves.
That can be incredibly healingand it'll always bring it back
to ourselves and what we've beensearching for, told to search
for externally for so long.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
I agree completely with that and I think one of the
really beautiful parts about itbeing food for thought is every
single one of us at some level,has to go through this thought
process about what love actuallyis.
What does it mean to us?
How do we want love to show upin our life?
How do we want to be thatrepresentation of love in
(30:51):
whatever that means to us?
And there is so manycomplexities, sometimes people
you know they don't know whereto start and so, just beginning
to look at it from the differentaspects and questioning, well,
what kind of love has alwaysshown up in my life?
I think that's, and how would Iwant it to be?
Speaker 1 (31:12):
Because I think we all know what love is until we
don't, until what we thought waslove doesn't feel like love
anymore.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Do you know that?
Speaker 1 (31:21):
often happens without our permission, as we all have
experienced, and that's wherethe emotional maturity, mental
maturity, physical maturitycomes along.
So life's constantly findingnew ways to redefine it for
ourselves, and I think that'sthe beauty and the mystery at
times.
But it's often right in ourfaces, just we've never been
told to open our eyes and toexplore it.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
Exactly, exactly.
Thanks so much for listening.
If you enjoyed this episode,then you might want to check out
our online community.
We built it to offer you thecomfort of having a supportive
community by your side, nomatter where life takes you.
Connect with like-mindedindividuals through our app,
(32:14):
thank you.
Advance access to each newepisode.
The opportunity to askquestions directly of Gareth and
I.
Input into what topics we coverin the show.
Access to exclusive content notavailable anywhere else.
To learn more about ourcommunity, please go to
(32:34):
wwwgarethmichaelcom.
Thanks again, and I hope youguys are having a lovely week.
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