April 28, 2025 • 43 mins
In this episode of the Practical Spirituality Podcast, Gareth and Kim explore the human tendency to avoid and run away from emotional discomfort, offering an honest and compassionate look at how avoidance shapes personal growth. Kim openly shares her experience of being a "professional runner," setting the tone for a conversation that encourages understanding of the ways people try to escape from difficult emotions.
The hosts explain how avoidance patterns evolve over time, often taking the form of behaviours like substance use or overworking, and later becoming more subtle, sometimes even masked as spiritual practices or self-improvement. They emphasize that avoidance is a natural part of the human experience, and that true healing happens in its own time. As Gareth notes, "You can't heal the parts of you that you're meant to heal until you're meant to heal them," highlighting the importance of timing and intuition over forcing change.
Our hosts offer practical guidance, enocraging us to meet ourselves with compassion, and understanding that the goal isn't to eliminate running, but to form a healthier relationship with the parts of ourselves we tend to flee from. This conversation invites listeners to approach their growth journey with patience, honesty, and self-kindness.
Become a Community Member at https://community.garethmichael.com/ to join our community and get early access to new episodes, answers to your personal questions and so much more.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:12):
Welcome back to the Practical Spirituality Podcast.
We are so excited to have youon this journey with us, where
we explore all elements of mind,body, emotions and soul through
the lens of everyday life.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Hello Kim.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Hello Gareth, how are you?
Speaker 2 (00:32):
I'm doing good.
How are you doing?
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Yes, I am good too.
It's early, but it's good.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
I think you're going to thoroughly enjoy the topic
for this evening.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
You do, do you.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
I do.
You know how you enjoy all ofthe topics I bring up.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
I know I feel like you just run through my life and
go oh, let's do this one.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
But for this week's episode, we're going to be
talking about a topic that we'veprobably both been avoiding,
like most other people in theirlives.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
I would say so.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
So the topic is running in their lives.
I would say so.
So the topic is running, notnecessarily the exercise or the
sport of running, but runningaway from ourselves or running
from something going on withinour lives, past, present, or
maybe even running away fromsomething that might happen in
the future.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
I'm seriously thinking you need to get some
topics that I might be able torelate to instead of these
topics.
It's so foreign to me.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Yes, and I think we've been running from this
topic itself, so it's caught upto us.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
It has.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
When you hear the term running, what comes to mind
?
Speaker 1 (01:41):
My life.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Straight in there mind my life.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
You asked you know me .
I don't beat around the bush.
Now, when I hear that termrunning, it does remind me of my
life, because I didn't know Iwas running as much as I was for
a long time, but as I startedto work on myself, I'm a
professional runner and I'm suremany of us are out there.
But what it basically means ismy definition might be a little
(02:14):
bit different than others,because mine was always running
away from the pain, like I'mpretty sure I was aware at a
young age that I've been runningaway.
That's the addiction.
I'm pretty sure I was aware ata young age that I've been
running away.
That's the addiction.
However, there's so manydifferent ways that most people
run, so that's what comes tomind when you first ask me about
running.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
And I think that's interesting and relevant and a
lot of people would be able torelate to that, because I think
we're all running from differentaspects and elements of our
life, but we're not always fullyaware that we're in fact doing
that, because it's just beensomething that we've been doing,
as you said, our entire lives.
The things in which we'rerunning from and the ways in
which we run away from itcontinues to evolve and change
(02:57):
as we go throughout life and asour understandings evolve and as
we continue to grow in thislife.
So when you want to talk aboutthat, you realize that there
must be things evolve and as areas we continue to grow in this
life.
So someone has talked out thatyou realize that there must be a
spiritual understanding behindthis, especially if all eight
billion of us are apparentlydoing it at the same time, no
wonder the earth is spinning.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
We're all running but you know, I think that's
interesting because you go nowonder.
But I think how many peopleever think about they're running
like I don't.
I the only reason I thoughtabout it is because it got in my
face so many times that Icouldn't deny it anymore.
But I don't think thateverybody is aware that's what
(03:35):
they're doing and I know.
For me, as I started to look atmyself and I started to grow
and started to change, it gotmore subtle and more subtle and
more subtle how the runningshowed up in my life.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
I agree with that and I think it's just our
relationship with runningevolves and change, because I
don't think we can ever stoprunning from certain elements,
because that's where, as long aswe are running, we're
continuously opening up newcreative ways to understand new
elements of ourselves or newopportunities to grow in
different ways.
And I think that is the themeof what it means to be human and
(04:10):
what it means to be a spiritualbeing.
Here, as you said, I think it'sbecause we've only ever seen
everyone doing it from a youngage, and we've been doing it
ourselves and we all have traumain our lives that is
unprocessed, that ismisunderstood, that we've never
really had the opportunity orchance to question it or explore
it, and even when we are awareof it doesn't mean it's the
(04:32):
right time to or we want to.
And then we're just aware whatwe're starting to run from,
which beforehand we were justrunning because it was
normalized and a standard.
So this is what we've beentalking about before.
It's so layered in the humanexperience.
But then what that actuallyrepresents for each and every
one of us, because running thisbasically represents the common
(04:55):
behaviors of avoiding something,silencing ourselves, silencing
an experience, the busyness thatwe create because we don't want
to sit with our thoughts, sitwith our emotions, sit with
others, sit with ourselves, andhow even addictions and
different things can help usescape in many different forms
from things that we've never hadthe chance to fully understand,
(05:16):
of elements of experienceswe've been through, or why
people even behave the way theydo towards us.
So it's quite a mouthful andyou can understand what suddenly
is funding.
Everyone's running is kind ofthe point, because how can you
not be running when there's thismuch unknown about ourselves in
every single person out of thebillion plus people?
Speaker 1 (05:39):
I couldn't agree more with that and I think you have
to look at these aspects thatyou were just talking about the
avoidance or the escapism or thebusyness.
You know, I encompass all ofthose at any given time and
there's nothing that will pissme off more than someone go.
Oh, you know, you're so busy,you're so busy people don't say
(06:00):
it all to you, Sherry.
People don't say that to me.
Yeah, and you know I come by ithonestly.
I had a very workaholic fatheras well, and my mother wasn't
emotionally there on thelandscape, and so neither parent
.
They were both busy running intheir own way.
And that's what I think.
(06:21):
We don't notice it.
You know, we'll joke aboutbeing a workaholic, we'll joke
about not being present, but wedon't even realize that's what
we're doing and we don't knowwhat we're escaping from.
And that becomes prettyimportant, I think, because, of
course, the shadow side of usgoes.
(06:41):
We don't really need to look atthat.
That's why we're running.
Yeah, the shadow side of usbecause we don't really need to
look at that.
That's why we're running.
So when it's presented to uswe're like, no, I'm not doing
that.
But I think it is important tolook at some of the reasons why
we do that run.
Like the amount of people thatare afraid of confrontation, and
that fear in itself I don'twant to face, I don't even want
(07:07):
to.
If it looks like somebody elseis going to be upset, I don't
even want to go there.
And the amount of people thathave said that to me is just
it's shocking.
But then the insidious ones arethe shame and the guilt.
Look at how many people thatencompasses on the planet.
Who of us does not have shameand who of us does not have
guilt on some level?
And then, of course, because ofsome of the stuff that's
(07:30):
happened to us, we have thatneed to control.
And who would have thought thatcontrol is a way of running?
I mean escapism, obviously, butcontrol.
I remember when I was firstconfronting the whole control
aspect and I was like it's notpossible, that's not a way of
running away, but it very muchis.
So when you think about all thereasons why we're running, it
(07:54):
makes a whole lot more sensethat we're not aware of it,
because these things have beenshowing up since we were very
little and we were taught sincewe were very little the
different ways to run away.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
When I think of running, what comes to mind for
me, in a simplistic way, is whatfunds any of our running
abilities is the fear and themisunderstanding of experience
real experiences we've beenthrough but still don't
understand why it happened, orthe ability to process the
(08:26):
emotions or the reality aroundit.
And when you've had so manydifferent experiences that
continue to compound, that isconstantly misunderstood and
there's all this emotion aroundit and life still keeps coming
at us, then it's no wonder whywe have a fear of confrontation,
why we feel so much pain, why,as you mentioned, the shame,
(08:47):
that guilt, and then why we havesuch a desire for that need of
control.
And then, when we can't havecontrol, why we slip into.
I need to escape and I think,no matter who you are and both
of us included in this, we canstill find areas in our lives
present day where those thingscan still be relevant and, yes,
it evolves and changes weexplore never stops being
(09:09):
relevant in some way, shape orform.
But it is all based or backedoff that reality, as you were
mentioning, of experiences thathappened at a young age, that we
never really understood tostart with, and that's where the
fear comes from and themisunderstanding of those
experiences.
So we run because there'sactually no person to turn to to
(09:31):
help guide us, to actually situs down and explain this to us.
So what do we do?
We run like any innocent childwould, because there's so much
fear present of something wejust experienced.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
And so it's a wonder that we ever do any evolution at
the rate that we're going,because think of all the topics
that we've covered and how mostof it originates from the fact
that we have not been able tounderstand the experiences that
we've had.
And so, as a professionalrunner for most of my life, I
(10:04):
can absolutely agree with it.
I didn't even know what shamewas until my mid-30s.
I didn't even have a clue whatthat word actually meant.
Like I was familiar with theword but I didn't know what it
meant in relevance to me.
That's how well I was runningand I was like I don't want to
go in and explore thisparticular thing.
(10:25):
We're like so many people havethat fear of confrontation and I
find that amazing.
Yet I have it too.
I find it amazing, on differentlevels, that the people have it
, yet I will avoid confrontationas well and not realize that's
what I'm doing.
So it's so interesting, and mypoint is, I think it's a miracle
(10:47):
that we actually evolve at all,because we're so busy being
unaware of all the things thatwe are meant to try and
understand.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
I couldn't agree more , and I think it's that no
matter how much we are runningfrom something, the reality of
this life that I have found isthat it always runs faster and
it always catches up.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Yes, it absolutely does.
And the other hard thing is ishow we spend so much of our life
trying to run around it, runover it, run below it, avoid it,
run in the opposite directionof it, but the only way is
through it is a direction of it,but the only way is through it.
(11:30):
And the level of fear of goingthrough that pain, even though
it's not based in reality, it'sbased on that childhood aspect,
so everything looks bigger.
I mean, have you ever gone backto your elementary school and
gone?
Wow, I used to think this wassuch a big school and it's just
this tiny little thing, becausewe're no longer the tiny little
thing that went there.
And that's the same with ourissues and the things that we're
(11:53):
trying to avoid, because a lotof it happened when we were so
tiny it seemed gigantic, but now, if we were to look at, it's
not as big, but we're stilltreating it like it's the
boogeyman under the bed and wecan't possibly face it yeah, you
know, as you said, I think insome ways we're all professional
runners, but we all can alsotend to run out of breath.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
The thing catches up with us because you can only run
for so long before we have toaddress it in some way, shape or
form.
You can't address one thing andthen that's it done for life, I
think, depending on theexperiences that we go through,
it evolves and changes with us.
So you and I have heard so manytimes from different people
I've dealt with that we have andit's like, yes, you've dealt
(12:41):
with a layer of that.
And because we can run from itand then we can bump into it and
fall over and get back up andstart running again, but then,
as experiences in present daykeep adding to it, it funds the
things that we've been runningfrom from a young age, because
we cannot delete those parts ofus that have been there from
(13:05):
elementary school, even fromyounger, like they are a part of
us.
So this is what I mean by nomatter how much work you do on
yourself, there's still going tobe elements of the running,
because it's in the running thatis a constant human growth and
that's why we can't stop thatreality from occurring, and
that's why these conversationsare important to understand.
So then, what's it really allabout?
(13:26):
Why does this happen?
Why do we find ourselvesrunning?
Why do we find ourselves infear of confrontation, and even
when we've been doing work 40years on ourselves, or the pain
that appears, or the shame, theguilt and the control and the
escapism like what's it reallyall about?
So I think, in beginning toexplore that is actually
understanding this runningability that we all naturally
(13:49):
have, but we never really satdown and taught what it actually
costs us, when we're unaware ofthe fact that we're doing this
on an ongoing basis.
So what comes to mind?
Because you said there, youdefined it as your life.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
So now, looking back, it's everyone's lives, but I'm
using your comes to mind is thedisconnection you know, and how
often I disconnected from peoplebecause I don't know if I was
(14:32):
afraid of the confrontation then, but I didn't know how to deal
with it, so that if things youknow, I would give people a
chance to give people a chanceand then bam, that's it, You're
done, finished, gone.
So that disconnection is a hugecost because, especially if
(14:54):
that's a coping skill, you endup backing yourself into a
corner and not even realizingthat you've backed yourself into
that corner.
So that's one of the ways, butone of the other ways is the
patterns and the patterns thatyou keep repeating.
And how many times do we repeatthese patterns before we go?
Wow, that's familiar.
Why is that happening again?
(15:14):
Do you know what I mean?
It's like I swear I've workedon this.
Why is this pattern still hereand again?
It's that the delayed healing.
But when I think about thedelayed healing, it kind of
pisses me off, because I startedat a very young age and I often
(15:35):
have said, as we've talkedabout many times on this podcast
why can't we learn this at ayounger age?
The way the system is set up,and I am going to say that, I'm
going to say the fine print thatnone of us really got to read
when we were making thesedecisions or our soul was making
these decisions is that we'renot aware that that is what
(15:58):
we're doing and we have to gothrough so much of it before we
have the ability and theemotional maturity to start to
turn around and face some ofthese things.
So even if you have theintellectual knowledge at a very
young age, that doesn't meanyou're going to not run away or
confront what you're supposed togrow from because you're not
(16:22):
ready.
And that is to me the bigconundrum with all of this.
It's like, oh, you're notsupposed to run, but I don't
know how to do anything else andI can't learn it at an early
age and even though I know aboutit, I'm still running until
that moment when that everythingcomes together about timing,
yeah yeah so I do understandthis, like the delayed healing
(16:42):
aspect.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
It's with a pinch of salt because, as we we talked
about before, you can't heal theparts of you that you're meant
to heal until you're meant toheal them.
And there's so many different.
It's like that old saying whena student is ready, the teacher
appears.
And there's so many layers whenit comes to our ability to
explore, to understand theseparts of us.
From a young age.
We're not allowed to talk,we're not allowed to understand
(17:09):
any of these elements.
Because if we did understandall of these elements, what
would be the point of being here, the part of the human
experience?
Because there'd be nothing togrow from.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
So when?
Speaker 2 (17:13):
you break it down, you look across eight billion
people, you can begin to see whyit has to be this way, but it
does not mean that it'senjoyable to be aware of that or
to actually say it out loud.
But in saying that, even withfull awareness of these
different patterns and behaviorsthat we might be running from,
and even when we are fullywilling to dive into it, it's
(17:36):
that you can only process anddeal with the things that you're
allowed to, and there's alwaysmore layers that you're not
allowed to necessarily knowabout or address right there.
And then, because if we did, itwould be too much, I think, for
any human experience toactually be exposed to.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
See, and I absolutely get that, that's a good thing
about having lived the life thatI've lived, because there've
been so many different layers,so many different awarenesses.
So many times I getdisappointed because I go what
it's here again.
You know, as you were sayingearlier, but I think, especially
(18:12):
from the very beginning, when Ifirst put down the drugs and
alcohol and some of the oldemotions started to arise, it
was absolutely overwhelming andthere was no way I could have
possibly processed all of it atthat time, even if I had wanted
to.
And I think, as you know, wehad a conversation earlier this
(18:35):
week and I was shocked at thelevel of emotion that was still
present on a topic that I havevisited and that is how I now
say it.
I have visited it many times.
I don't say, oh, I've worked onthat.
I say, oh, here we are, we'regoing to visit this one again.
Okay, let's see what it lookslike this time around the
(18:56):
mulberry bush it's like visitinga great aunt you don't like?
yes, she's still alive Ipersonally think there's some
benefit in the running.
But but do you know what I mean?
And it is the honor it's likereally having to get honest with
(19:17):
ourselves, because the bravado,when we first start this
journey of I'm going, as we'regrowing and we are gaining more
emotional maturity, it rocks upagain and we go.
I've never looked at it likethis.
(19:45):
The amount of times I've heardpeople say to me oh, I've never
even thought about it like thatjust as you said before, many
people said before.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
You said you remember and then you forget and you
remember and then you forget,and you remember and then you
forget.
And I think that's what theinteresting cycles of life
brings us in is that, eventhough we visited something 10
years ago, as you said, weweren't ready for, and that's
why these experiences from thepast they're so important, and I
(20:20):
love present moment awarenessthat we've talked about before.
I love a lot of the teachersand authors that are talking
about why the present moment isso important.
I'll never disagree with that.
But the present moment isalways, in its own way, going to
bring up elements of our ownpast that we still don't yet
understand and the new layerswithin that.
(20:41):
That is a part of this journeycalled life, and I think it's
that when you start to do that,you can understand the running,
instead of it kind of being, oh,I need to run and avoid, or I
need to sit down and be in thepresent moment.
And because even a lot ofpeople, they can use
spirituality to weaponizerunning, as if they have to stop
(21:03):
running completely.
But the point of thisconversation is that it's not
about stopping the runningcompletely.
It's about understanding whythe running is a part of life.
Let's take a step back fromthis week's episode and share
with everyone what we've been upto behind the scenes.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
We're really excited to be able to finally offer the
Gareth Michael community to eachof you.
The community offers a range ofbenefits, including access to
our live events, weekly podcastepisodes, articles,
self-checking questions, as wellas a community of individuals
you can connect with andinteract with along the way.
It's designed to offer yousupport, guidance and a safe
(21:42):
space on a day-to-day basis.
We'd love to have you join ourglobal community of like-minded
individuals.
That website address, again, iswwwgarethmichaelcom.
Now let's get back to thatepisode, shall we?
Well, even when we get into thehealing, like you're just
(22:04):
saying, we talk about some ofthe emotional triggers that
happen, that we're all runningfrom the emotional triggers
because they're unpleasant andwe don't know what to do with
them.
And so then, especially in thework that you and I do, people
come to us and they talk abouthow do I stop these triggers?
Well, the goal isn't to stopthe triggers, just like the goal
(22:25):
isn't to stop the running andit isn't to stop the triggers.
They're both those things thatare pointing to what we need to
look at, that are pointing towhat we need to look at, and
that is, I think, what getsmissed, because it has become so
natural to avoid and to stayaway from some of these topics.
We think the symptoms are theproblem, instead of
(22:47):
understanding that's just thewarning sign or that's just the
light bulb coming on to say, hey, have a look at this.
And that's where it gets somisconstrued.
You know the amount of peoplethat say to me that they want to
work with me, they don't wantto deal with it, they don't have
to go to the emotions.
Okay, sure, I don't know howthat works, but we can try that.
(23:12):
But you know, that's just thenature of humankind, that's just
how we've been taught to dealwith all of this, instead of
being able to walk straight intoit when we're ready and when
it's time for us to do that.
So that's what's really hugeabout it.
And knowing that we avoid thetriggers because we know there's
(23:34):
something deeper underneath itthat we have no idea how to even
look at.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
And I think that's where it's understanding the
running instead of actuallybelieving for a second that the
running is ever going to stop.
And I think it's that mostthings that trigger us in this
lifetime is that if we had beentaught or shown this from a
young age, it wouldn't be as bigof a problem as it is for us
now.
Never mind the people makingfalse promises that as if the
(24:01):
running could stop someday.
But really the only day therunning stops is the day we take
our last breath while here inthis particular body, because
the journey has been done withthe things that we were meant to
explore and meant to understandabout ourselves in this
lifetime.
And that's a very differentjourney for every single person.
But, as we've said, it's thatthis journey is about each
individual exploring self intheir own unique way.
(24:21):
Neither person has it right orwrong, but just the way they're
simply meant to experience it.
So I think, when you turn theidea of running on its head a
little bit, that it's notsomething that we're trying to
stop, it's not something we'retrying to turn a blind eye to,
but it's actually a journeyinward, and all of these
different things along the way,as you said, are like signals on
(24:43):
guidance in its own way, aboutthe areas that our system wants
us to explore.
So it's about turning towardsourselves instead of the learned
way of not being allowed or notbeing able to look in about
what's going on.
So, like most things we talkabout, you always have to start
small, so what would be theadvice that you would offer
(25:03):
someone who can identify withwhat we've been talking about in
this episode that they've beenrunning their entire lives?
Where could that person beginif they want to understand
what's funding their run?
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Well, I think one of the first things is a bit of
that recognition of you know,we've been running away from
everything that is inside of us,that we're, you know, whatever
it is, I mean, and it's somulti-layered as we've just got
through saying.
But the very first step is torealize the answer lies within.
So, as you said, we've got toturn it on its head and start to
(25:37):
run towards us and towards whatit is we've been afraid of.
But that doesn't necessarilymean that we're going to jump in
and deal with the biggestissues first.
It just simply means we'regoing to start very small and go
oh, wait a second.
How can I turn and start tomeet me?
And what do I need to be ableto turn and meet me?
(26:00):
What kind of support do I need?
How am I going to find thatsupport?
And even if it's justacknowledging an emotion and
holding that acknowledgement,feel it, experience it, identify
it, name it.
That's a great start.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
I love that one and the reason why I love that one
is because the idea of any of usgoing back into our childhood
and actually exploring thedifferent negative experiences,
the traumatic experiences, thethings that we might have some
awareness, that is funding thisrun, nevermind all of the things
that we have currently are notaware of in the conscious mind,
that's stored in thesubconscious mind.
I think it's that we have tofirst of all build a
(26:41):
relationship with the emotions,because if we jump straight into
those experiences, it's alwaysgoing to be too overwhelming,
it's always going to be too much.
Even if someone who's beenexploring it for decades and
years and so experienced, it canstill be too much for that
person to have to go back thereand to explore that part of them
.
So I think it's actually thebaby steps and the small steps
(27:01):
where you can start to educatethe mind and get comfort.
It's actually understanding theroots of fear itself for every
person to be breaking down eachof these negative emotions.
And there's so much amazingmaterial out there now that we
forget we can get our hands onto that wasn't available for us
to get access to.
It wasn't the local library 30years ago.
It's that now there's so manypeople that have dedicated their
(27:22):
lives to allowing the materialto exist to educate our logical
mind on fear, on anger, on shame, on guilt, on our ability to
control and escapism andconfrontation and pain.
Because when we have a solidfoundation of all of the things
I just mentioned there, thenit's we're more willing than to
(27:43):
actually go to the experiencesitself.
Because we have a foundation ofokay, now this isn't as scary
as it would have been withoutthis information.
Now it's still going to bechallenging when it comes to
having to do that journey, butit's about how do we make it,
one step at a time, easier,because each step does make a
huge difference in our abilityto process it, instead of
(28:04):
running away from it once again.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Well, one of the things that I find amazing and
it's a great exercise for ourlearners and you'll find out
exactly where you are on thisjourney if you sat down and made
a list of all the emotions youexperience in a day.
Now, what's interesting aboutthat is the average person knows
three or four emotions and theyrely and put everything in
(28:30):
those categories and they mightfall in those categories, but
there are different emotions and, as we talk about different
layers, there's different layersof emotions and there's
different types of emotions.
And then I would even challengeyou further is the minute we
say make a list of the emotionsthat you're aware of, notice how
(28:50):
many of those are what you putin the negative basket, and then
how many positive emotions doyou experience on what you deem
as positive emotions on a dailybasis?
And you might find yourselfvery surprised at how few that
you're aware of, because we doso much of that categorizing and
(29:12):
so, like you said, that is thatfirst small step.
There's so much richness injust starting to explore that.
And when you start to explorethat, like you'd be surprised
how many times when I talk topeople when I say okay, so if
you don't want this, what do youwant?
And they cannot even identifythat because they've been
(29:36):
swirling around in the swamp forso long that they don't know
what's outside of the swamp.
Long that they don't knowwhat's outside of the swamp.
So that is, I think, for all ofus.
Once we have those emotions,like you're saying and like you
just said before, then if we'regoing to delve into any of the
stuff from the past, at least wehave a reference point, yeah,
(29:58):
as to how we can identify whatit was and have the
understanding of what it wasmeant to teach us yeah, because
now we have, uh, we're running.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
We're running in a direction instead of in circles.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Yes, yes, very much so.
And I think as you go throughthat practice, gareth, learning
to name those feelings.
And here's a beautiful thing Goon the internet today and
there's 50 million differentemotion wheels that will tell
you all the different emotionsand you might be surprised how
(30:30):
few you have in your vocabularyand how can you expand that.
But then it's about reallybeing able to name it.
And then the final well, notthe final, but one of the bigger
things is, as you start thisjourney, turning around facing
yourself instead of running away, doing it with kindness and
with compassion, because we'vebeen taught to do it with
(30:54):
expectation and get to thatfinal result instead of going oh
I'm so sorry that you've beenrunning away from that for so
long, I'm so sorry you felt somisunderstood in that for so
long, because our first thing isto turn around and criticize
ourselves and create somethingelse to run from.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Absolutely.
It's constantly funding thatand it's always become so much
bigger in our heads and what itactually is.
Because you're saying we'vejust never had the know-how of
how to do it, but we've alwaysknown what we don't want, as you
mentioned, versus what weactually do want, and a lot of
us secretly do want tounderstand these things going on
beneath us.
But when you have nothing butpeople around you who don't talk
(31:35):
about it and don't want toexplore it and can't explore it,
you can see how this can go onfor decades in any of our lives,
of it just continuing to buildwith time before life once again
brings it up right into ourfaces and goes now it's time and
I think the other thing to beaware of as you're on this
journey as I'm sure most peoplewho are listening to our podcast
(31:55):
probably already know is onceyou turn around and you start
facing some of the things thatyou've been running from,
knowing that you're still goingto be running on some levels.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
But your world changes in the fact that the
more you understand your journey, the more you understand the
process that you've been through, how you're looking at the
world starts to change, and thatlandscape changes with the
people that you have closest toyou, which is a natural process.
(32:27):
But for so long we have seenthat as a negative, and so we
wonder why it is.
People come and go from ourlives and we want to blame
ourselves or blame theconfrontation, or blame the
situations, instead ofrecognizing that those level of
awarenesses have just changed.
And so, therefore, as theuniverse does on such a polite
(32:51):
level, it always brings you newpeople to play with on a
different game field.
You know, I remember when videogames first became available
and we'd play these and it wasso basic and simple.
Then you'd get to the nextlevel and it'd get a little bit
(33:12):
harder.
But now you look at the videogames that are out there, and
it's just mocking what we do inlife, basically, and so you're
equipped with the idea of whatit's going to look like.
It's just how do you apply itto yourself.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
So I think that's what's interesting when we're
talking about running and allthe different steps we take
towards understanding why thatis so important for any of us in
our day-to-day lives and havinga self-compassion,
understanding that it is thehuman experience and not being
so hard on ourselves.
And then when we understand ourfears the only way to begin to
(33:50):
understand our fears is actuallyto show it with more kindness
and removing any of the shamethat comes along with that.
And it's really that whenyou're in the present day and
understanding that, you see howrunning has evolved and changed
in many different waysthroughout our lives, as we're
talking about the start of theepisode, so even though we might
be running from something verydifferent present day than when
(34:12):
we were 30 years ago, is thatyou can see how they're all
linked in different aspects ofthe life or the lessons or the
understandings that we stilldon't quite fully grasp or
understand about ourselves.
And I think sometimes is that wehave to find that
self-compassion towardsourselves, especially when we do
realize that we are runningfrom something.
Because even when we have thatawareness that we are running,
(34:34):
it doesn't mean that we'reactually allowed by the energy
at times to take action in theways we would like to or what we
would want to.
And I think it's that, as we'vetalked about in many episodes
before, is that even if we arein a relationship that we know
is not healthy, might be abusiveor toxic in some ways, it's
easy for someone else to haveinput and say just leave, just
walk away, stop running awayfrom your problems.
(34:55):
Everyone has an opinion on whatyou should be doing or what
action you should take now.
But you and I both know it'sactually never been that simple
and that's a very different kindof running, if you know what I
mean.
Because even though you'reaware that you're running the
fear patterns of anything,you're actually not running away
from the situation becauseyou're quite self-aware that
you're living in that toxicity,you're living in that abusive
relationship in this currentexample.
(35:17):
So I think it's that we have tohave self-compassion at times of
understanding the fears thatare present and we can run have
that self-awareness at times ofunderstanding the fears that are
present and we can run, havethat self-awareness.
But that is actually thejourney of us growing a
relationship with all of theabove to be able to actually
take that action that we mightbe aware that we have to take at
some point, but we can't fakethat action until it's actually
(35:38):
time for it to occur.
So I just think we can be veryhard at times to say, yeah, I'm
running away from my problems,but we both know that's not
always a simple choice thatwe're just making on an ongoing
basis.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
I couldn't agree more , and that is what I think the
conundrum for so many people isis trying to work out whether
they're running away from it orwhether they're staying in a
toxic situation.
You know, just to try andunderstand.
But, as you and I both havesaid so many times in the past,
what's for you won't go past youand you.
(36:13):
You know if, if you aren't ableto leave for whatever reason,
you know whether that be afriendship, whether that be work
, whether that not just talkingabout personal relationships
there's a good chance that wehaven't gotten the wisdom that
we're supposed to gain in thatparticular situation just yet,
(36:33):
and so it isn't always just asimple choice of that's it.
I'm out of here.
It just isn't, and you know, Ithink that part is so hard to
help people understand.
But again, once you've turnedinward, if you're really
listening, you know the moment.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
You become aware of the moment that it is time if
you are meant to walk away fromsomething, and then you can look
at it as not running.
You know, and the example I useall the time is my marriage.
I know I overturned everysingle stone to make that
marriage work.
A lot of people thought Ishould have left many years
earlier than I did and Icouldn't.
(37:12):
But the moment I knew I hadgotten the wisdom that I was
meant to get, I knew then it wastime to end the marriage.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
And I think what's something I might say here this
might be a little bitcontroversial, but I think it's
only when you've been through itmaybe you can apply it that
sometimes staying is listeningto your intuition until it's
time to actually leave, told byyour intuition in a different
way, because people thinkstaying is you not listening to
your intuition, where sometimesstaying is you listening to your
intuition because you'reactually not allowed to leave
(37:43):
just yet.
But that can be a veryconfusing thing, I just said for
people, because you know itfeels like a super huge
contradiction actually to whatyour intuition is telling you.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
Well.
So, for example, when I firststarted to realize that the
marriage wasn't going to work, Iwanted to leave because I was
demonizing him and I wasfocusing on all of his faults.
I couldn't leave because of myown fears, my own insecurities.
I didn't think I'd survive.
I didn't want that to happenfor my kids.
(38:15):
As that evolved, because Ireally want people to have an
understanding of how this works.
As that evolved, I was likefine, I'll work on myself, as I
do with everything, fighting itand kicking it.
Okay.
Then, when I got to that point,when it was time to leave, it
was no longer about him.
(38:36):
The understanding wascompletely about me.
And also I got to then gain,you know, the wisdom of why that
whole relationship needed tohappen for me in the first place
.
So it was almost as if it cameand did a complete circle and
had tied itself up in a nicelittle bow for myself.
(38:58):
Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (39:00):
It does.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
It was like the intuition give you the insight
that one day you would leave,but it just wouldn't be now yeah
, yeah, and that was frustratingbecause everything pointed to I
needed to go, but I couldn't doit and even in that I was
beating myself up, as so manypeople do.
But when the intuition came thatnow it's done, there was a
(39:24):
completely different outlook onthe whole relationship and there
was gratitude on one or twolevels not on all levels at that
point, because it's emotionalthing that happens, but on one
or two levels there wasgratitude for the relationship
because what it had taught meabout me.
So hopefully that doesn't makeit quite as controversial what
(39:44):
you had said, because when youhave a real life example to
understand it, I was amazed thevery first time I knew that that
marriage wasn't going to work.
Did I have any understandingthat I had made a contract with
this person to help me learn tostand up for myself?
No, I did not.
And while I was demonizing him,there's no way I could see that
(40:06):
this was about me learning howto stand up for me and find my
own voice.
But by the time I left I hadfound my voice and it wasn't
screaming and yelling, it wasvery quiet, but it was very
certain and that is what makesthe difference, I think, and if
you can have that, you can walkaway then with a completely
(40:27):
different outlook and it doesn'tbecome the war that sometimes
these things become.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
But I think that's why it's interesting.
When you explore all thedifferent things that we have
been in this life, running fromour relationship with those
components where the growth hascome, and no matter who you ask,
it's like.
Or if you would say to someoneI know you're running from that
and it's like, yeah, that and200 other things yes, like you
just pointed out, one of many.
But I think everyone has thosedifferent elements with us
(40:55):
because as long as there's goingto be fear as part of the human
emotion, there's always goingto be something we're running
from that's eventually going tocatch up to show us something
for us to grow from, and then weput that down or we visit that
at a different stage in life andwe go again.
So we finish it with that timein our lives, we put it down and
then we most likely revisit ina different stage in our lives.
(41:17):
So I think this was reallyinteresting about this whole
concept of running and this ideathat we've all been taught,
especially in spirituality ortransformation, that our lives
are meant to be peaceful 100% ofthe time and the running has to
stop.
I've yet to meet one personwhere it has been that simple or
that easy or that realistic intheir day-to-day lives.
(41:39):
So I think it's when we haveconversations like this, where I
know, when I started to thinkof it this way, through many
different teachings and throughmichael, it'll it give me
permission to actually have adeep breath so it gives me
permission so I don't have tohave it figure out all the times
.
Running from different elementsis actually quite a normal thing
.
It's part of the humanexperience.
I don't have to feel have aterrible relationship with fear.
(42:02):
I don't have or is spiritualenlightenment feeling no fear at
all.
And I think people get caughtup in this.
And when you're justexperiencing the of what it
means to be human is that we canput these unrealistic
expectations or pressures onourselves and it's never enough.
But when you begin tounderstand that that is just a
part of the human experiencethat we're all here to have and
we begin to understand that it'samazing the new kind of
(42:23):
relationship we start buildingwith self and with life itself,
I couldn't have said it better.
Speaker 1 (42:28):
I agree 100% with that.
Thanks so much for listening.
If you enjoyed this episode,then you might want to check out
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(42:50):
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(43:10):
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Thanks again, and I hope youguys are having a lovely week.
Welcome back to the Practical Spirituality Podcast.
We are so excited to have youon this journey with us, where
we explore all elements of mind,body, emotions and soul through
the lens of everyday life.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Hello Kim.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Hello Gareth, how are you?
Speaker 2 (00:32):
I'm doing good.
How are you doing?
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Yes, I am good too.
It's early, but it's good.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
I think you're going to thoroughly enjoy the topic
for this evening.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
You do, do you.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
I do.
You know how you enjoy all ofthe topics I bring up.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
I know I feel like you just run through my life and
go oh, let's do this one.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
But for this week's episode, we're going to be
talking about a topic that we'veprobably both been avoiding,
like most other people in theirlives.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
I would say so.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
So the topic is running in their lives.
I would say so.
So the topic is running, notnecessarily the exercise or the
sport of running, but runningaway from ourselves or running
from something going on withinour lives, past, present, or
maybe even running away fromsomething that might happen in
the future.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
I'm seriously thinking you need to get some
topics that I might be able torelate to instead of these
topics.
It's so foreign to me.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Yes, and I think we've been running from this
topic itself, so it's caught upto us.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
It has.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
When you hear the term running, what comes to mind
?
Speaker 1 (01:41):
My life.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Straight in there mind my life.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
You asked you know me .
I don't beat around the bush.
Now, when I hear that termrunning, it does remind me of my
life, because I didn't know Iwas running as much as I was for
a long time, but as I startedto work on myself, I'm a
professional runner and I'm suremany of us are out there.
But what it basically means ismy definition might be a little
(02:14):
bit different than others,because mine was always running
away from the pain, like I'mpretty sure I was aware at a
young age that I've been runningaway.
That's the addiction.
I'm pretty sure I was aware ata young age that I've been
running away.
That's the addiction.
However, there's so manydifferent ways that most people
run, so that's what comes tomind when you first ask me about
running.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
And I think that's interesting and relevant and a
lot of people would be able torelate to that, because I think
we're all running from differentaspects and elements of our
life, but we're not always fullyaware that we're in fact doing
that, because it's just beensomething that we've been doing,
as you said, our entire lives.
The things in which we'rerunning from and the ways in
which we run away from itcontinues to evolve and change
(02:57):
as we go throughout life and asour understandings evolve and as
we continue to grow in thislife.
So when you want to talk aboutthat, you realize that there
must be things evolve and as areas we continue to grow in this
life.
So someone has talked out thatyou realize that there must be a
spiritual understanding behindthis, especially if all eight
billion of us are apparentlydoing it at the same time, no
wonder the earth is spinning.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
We're all running but you know, I think that's
interesting because you go nowonder.
But I think how many peopleever think about they're running
like I don't.
I the only reason I thoughtabout it is because it got in my
face so many times that Icouldn't deny it anymore.
But I don't think thateverybody is aware that's what
(03:35):
they're doing and I know.
For me, as I started to look atmyself and I started to grow
and started to change, it gotmore subtle and more subtle and
more subtle how the runningshowed up in my life.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
I agree with that and I think it's just our
relationship with runningevolves and change, because I
don't think we can ever stoprunning from certain elements,
because that's where, as long aswe are running, we're
continuously opening up newcreative ways to understand new
elements of ourselves or newopportunities to grow in
different ways.
And I think that is the themeof what it means to be human and
(04:10):
what it means to be a spiritualbeing.
Here, as you said, I think it'sbecause we've only ever seen
everyone doing it from a youngage, and we've been doing it
ourselves and we all have traumain our lives that is
unprocessed, that ismisunderstood, that we've never
really had the opportunity orchance to question it or explore
it, and even when we are awareof it doesn't mean it's the
(04:32):
right time to or we want to.
And then we're just aware whatwe're starting to run from,
which beforehand we were justrunning because it was
normalized and a standard.
So this is what we've beentalking about before.
It's so layered in the humanexperience.
But then what that actuallyrepresents for each and every
one of us, because running thisbasically represents the common
(04:55):
behaviors of avoiding something,silencing ourselves, silencing
an experience, the busyness thatwe create because we don't want
to sit with our thoughts, sitwith our emotions, sit with
others, sit with ourselves, andhow even addictions and
different things can help usescape in many different forms
from things that we've never hadthe chance to fully understand,
(05:16):
of elements of experienceswe've been through, or why
people even behave the way theydo towards us.
So it's quite a mouthful andyou can understand what suddenly
is funding.
Everyone's running is kind ofthe point, because how can you
not be running when there's thismuch unknown about ourselves in
every single person out of thebillion plus people?
Speaker 1 (05:39):
I couldn't agree more with that and I think you have
to look at these aspects thatyou were just talking about the
avoidance or the escapism or thebusyness.
You know, I encompass all ofthose at any given time and
there's nothing that will pissme off more than someone go.
Oh, you know, you're so busy,you're so busy people don't say
(06:00):
it all to you, Sherry.
People don't say that to me.
Yeah, and you know I come by ithonestly.
I had a very workaholic fatheras well, and my mother wasn't
emotionally there on thelandscape, and so neither parent
.
They were both busy running intheir own way.
And that's what I think.
(06:21):
We don't notice it.
You know, we'll joke aboutbeing a workaholic, we'll joke
about not being present, but wedon't even realize that's what
we're doing and we don't knowwhat we're escaping from.
And that becomes prettyimportant, I think, because, of
course, the shadow side of usgoes.
(06:41):
We don't really need to look atthat.
That's why we're running.
Yeah, the shadow side of usbecause we don't really need to
look at that.
That's why we're running.
So when it's presented to uswe're like, no, I'm not doing
that.
But I think it is important tolook at some of the reasons why
we do that run.
Like the amount of people thatare afraid of confrontation, and
that fear in itself I don'twant to face, I don't even want
(07:07):
to.
If it looks like somebody elseis going to be upset, I don't
even want to go there.
And the amount of people thathave said that to me is just
it's shocking.
But then the insidious ones arethe shame and the guilt.
Look at how many people thatencompasses on the planet.
Who of us does not have shameand who of us does not have
guilt on some level?
And then, of course, because ofsome of the stuff that's
(07:30):
happened to us, we have thatneed to control.
And who would have thought thatcontrol is a way of running?
I mean escapism, obviously, butcontrol.
I remember when I was firstconfronting the whole control
aspect and I was like it's notpossible, that's not a way of
running away, but it very muchis.
So when you think about all thereasons why we're running, it
(07:54):
makes a whole lot more sensethat we're not aware of it,
because these things have beenshowing up since we were very
little and we were taught sincewe were very little the
different ways to run away.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
When I think of running, what comes to mind for
me, in a simplistic way, is whatfunds any of our running
abilities is the fear and themisunderstanding of experience
real experiences we've beenthrough but still don't
understand why it happened, orthe ability to process the
(08:26):
emotions or the reality aroundit.
And when you've had so manydifferent experiences that
continue to compound, that isconstantly misunderstood and
there's all this emotion aroundit and life still keeps coming
at us, then it's no wonder whywe have a fear of confrontation,
why we feel so much pain, why,as you mentioned, the shame,
(08:47):
that guilt, and then why we havesuch a desire for that need of
control.
And then, when we can't havecontrol, why we slip into.
I need to escape and I think,no matter who you are and both
of us included in this, we canstill find areas in our lives
present day where those thingscan still be relevant and, yes,
it evolves and changes weexplore never stops being
(09:09):
relevant in some way, shape orform.
But it is all based or backedoff that reality, as you were
mentioning, of experiences thathappened at a young age, that we
never really understood tostart with, and that's where the
fear comes from and themisunderstanding of those
experiences.
So we run because there'sactually no person to turn to to
(09:31):
help guide us, to actually situs down and explain this to us.
So what do we do?
We run like any innocent childwould, because there's so much
fear present of something wejust experienced.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
And so it's a wonder that we ever do any evolution at
the rate that we're going,because think of all the topics
that we've covered and how mostof it originates from the fact
that we have not been able tounderstand the experiences that
we've had.
And so, as a professionalrunner for most of my life, I
(10:04):
can absolutely agree with it.
I didn't even know what shamewas until my mid-30s.
I didn't even have a clue whatthat word actually meant.
Like I was familiar with theword but I didn't know what it
meant in relevance to me.
That's how well I was runningand I was like I don't want to
go in and explore thisparticular thing.
(10:25):
We're like so many people havethat fear of confrontation and I
find that amazing.
Yet I have it too.
I find it amazing, on differentlevels, that the people have it
, yet I will avoid confrontationas well and not realize that's
what I'm doing.
So it's so interesting, and mypoint is, I think it's a miracle
(10:47):
that we actually evolve at all,because we're so busy being
unaware of all the things thatwe are meant to try and
understand.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
I couldn't agree more , and I think it's that no
matter how much we are runningfrom something, the reality of
this life that I have found isthat it always runs faster and
it always catches up.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Yes, it absolutely does.
And the other hard thing is ishow we spend so much of our life
trying to run around it, runover it, run below it, avoid it,
run in the opposite directionof it, but the only way is
through it is a direction of it,but the only way is through it.
(11:30):
And the level of fear of goingthrough that pain, even though
it's not based in reality, it'sbased on that childhood aspect,
so everything looks bigger.
I mean, have you ever gone backto your elementary school and
gone?
Wow, I used to think this wassuch a big school and it's just
this tiny little thing, becausewe're no longer the tiny little
thing that went there.
And that's the same with ourissues and the things that we're
(11:53):
trying to avoid, because a lotof it happened when we were so
tiny it seemed gigantic, but now, if we were to look at, it's
not as big, but we're stilltreating it like it's the
boogeyman under the bed and wecan't possibly face it yeah, you
know, as you said, I think insome ways we're all professional
runners, but we all can alsotend to run out of breath.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
The thing catches up with us because you can only run
for so long before we have toaddress it in some way, shape or
form.
You can't address one thing andthen that's it done for life, I
think, depending on theexperiences that we go through,
it evolves and changes with us.
So you and I have heard so manytimes from different people
I've dealt with that we have andit's like, yes, you've dealt
(12:41):
with a layer of that.
And because we can run from itand then we can bump into it and
fall over and get back up andstart running again, but then,
as experiences in present daykeep adding to it, it funds the
things that we've been runningfrom from a young age, because
we cannot delete those parts ofus that have been there from
(13:05):
elementary school, even fromyounger, like they are a part of
us.
So this is what I mean by nomatter how much work you do on
yourself, there's still going tobe elements of the running,
because it's in the running thatis a constant human growth and
that's why we can't stop thatreality from occurring, and
that's why these conversationsare important to understand.
So then, what's it really allabout?
(13:26):
Why does this happen?
Why do we find ourselvesrunning?
Why do we find ourselves infear of confrontation, and even
when we've been doing work 40years on ourselves, or the pain
that appears, or the shame, theguilt and the control and the
escapism like what's it reallyall about?
So I think, in beginning toexplore that is actually
understanding this runningability that we all naturally
(13:49):
have, but we never really satdown and taught what it actually
costs us, when we're unaware ofthe fact that we're doing this
on an ongoing basis.
So what comes to mind?
Because you said there, youdefined it as your life.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
So now, looking back, it's everyone's lives, but I'm
using your comes to mind is thedisconnection you know, and how
often I disconnected from peoplebecause I don't know if I was
(14:32):
afraid of the confrontation then, but I didn't know how to deal
with it, so that if things youknow, I would give people a
chance to give people a chanceand then bam, that's it, You're
done, finished, gone.
So that disconnection is a hugecost because, especially if
(14:54):
that's a coping skill, you endup backing yourself into a
corner and not even realizingthat you've backed yourself into
that corner.
So that's one of the ways, butone of the other ways is the
patterns and the patterns thatyou keep repeating.
And how many times do we repeatthese patterns before we go?
Wow, that's familiar.
Why is that happening again?
(15:14):
Do you know what I mean?
It's like I swear I've workedon this.
Why is this pattern still hereand again?
It's that the delayed healing.
But when I think about thedelayed healing, it kind of
pisses me off, because I startedat a very young age and I often
(15:35):
have said, as we've talkedabout many times on this podcast
why can't we learn this at ayounger age?
The way the system is set up,and I am going to say that, I'm
going to say the fine print thatnone of us really got to read
when we were making thesedecisions or our soul was making
these decisions is that we'renot aware that that is what
(15:58):
we're doing and we have to gothrough so much of it before we
have the ability and theemotional maturity to start to
turn around and face some ofthese things.
So even if you have theintellectual knowledge at a very
young age, that doesn't meanyou're going to not run away or
confront what you're supposed togrow from because you're not
(16:22):
ready.
And that is to me the bigconundrum with all of this.
It's like, oh, you're notsupposed to run, but I don't
know how to do anything else andI can't learn it at an early
age and even though I know aboutit, I'm still running until
that moment when that everythingcomes together about timing,
yeah yeah so I do understandthis, like the delayed healing
(16:42):
aspect.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
It's with a pinch of salt because, as we we talked
about before, you can't heal theparts of you that you're meant
to heal until you're meant toheal them.
And there's so many different.
It's like that old saying whena student is ready, the teacher
appears.
And there's so many layers whenit comes to our ability to
explore, to understand theseparts of us.
From a young age.
We're not allowed to talk,we're not allowed to understand
(17:09):
any of these elements.
Because if we did understandall of these elements, what
would be the point of being here, the part of the human
experience?
Because there'd be nothing togrow from.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
So when?
Speaker 2 (17:13):
you break it down, you look across eight billion
people, you can begin to see whyit has to be this way, but it
does not mean that it'senjoyable to be aware of that or
to actually say it out loud.
But in saying that, even withfull awareness of these
different patterns and behaviorsthat we might be running from,
and even when we are fullywilling to dive into it, it's
(17:36):
that you can only process anddeal with the things that you're
allowed to, and there's alwaysmore layers that you're not
allowed to necessarily knowabout or address right there.
And then, because if we did, itwould be too much, I think, for
any human experience toactually be exposed to.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
See, and I absolutely get that, that's a good thing
about having lived the life thatI've lived, because there've
been so many different layers,so many different awarenesses.
So many times I getdisappointed because I go what
it's here again.
You know, as you were sayingearlier, but I think, especially
(18:12):
from the very beginning, when Ifirst put down the drugs and
alcohol and some of the oldemotions started to arise, it
was absolutely overwhelming andthere was no way I could have
possibly processed all of it atthat time, even if I had wanted
to.
And I think, as you know, wehad a conversation earlier this
(18:35):
week and I was shocked at thelevel of emotion that was still
present on a topic that I havevisited and that is how I now
say it.
I have visited it many times.
I don't say, oh, I've worked onthat.
I say, oh, here we are, we'regoing to visit this one again.
Okay, let's see what it lookslike this time around the
(18:56):
mulberry bush it's like visitinga great aunt you don't like?
yes, she's still alive Ipersonally think there's some
benefit in the running.
But but do you know what I mean?
And it is the honor it's likereally having to get honest with
(19:17):
ourselves, because the bravado,when we first start this
journey of I'm going, as we'regrowing and we are gaining more
emotional maturity, it rocks upagain and we go.
I've never looked at it likethis.
(19:45):
The amount of times I've heardpeople say to me oh, I've never
even thought about it like thatjust as you said before, many
people said before.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
You said you remember and then you forget and you
remember and then you forget,and you remember and then you
forget.
And I think that's what theinteresting cycles of life
brings us in is that, eventhough we visited something 10
years ago, as you said, weweren't ready for, and that's
why these experiences from thepast they're so important, and I
(20:20):
love present moment awarenessthat we've talked about before.
I love a lot of the teachersand authors that are talking
about why the present moment isso important.
I'll never disagree with that.
But the present moment isalways, in its own way, going to
bring up elements of our ownpast that we still don't yet
understand and the new layerswithin that.
(20:41):
That is a part of this journeycalled life, and I think it's
that when you start to do that,you can understand the running,
instead of it kind of being, oh,I need to run and avoid, or I
need to sit down and be in thepresent moment.
And because even a lot ofpeople, they can use
spirituality to weaponizerunning, as if they have to stop
(21:03):
running completely.
But the point of thisconversation is that it's not
about stopping the runningcompletely.
It's about understanding whythe running is a part of life.
Let's take a step back fromthis week's episode and share
with everyone what we've been upto behind the scenes.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
We're really excited to be able to finally offer the
Gareth Michael community to eachof you.
The community offers a range ofbenefits, including access to
our live events, weekly podcastepisodes, articles,
self-checking questions, as wellas a community of individuals
you can connect with andinteract with along the way.
It's designed to offer yousupport, guidance and a safe
(21:42):
space on a day-to-day basis.
We'd love to have you join ourglobal community of like-minded
individuals.
That website address, again, iswwwgarethmichaelcom.
Now let's get back to thatepisode, shall we?
Well, even when we get into thehealing, like you're just
(22:04):
saying, we talk about some ofthe emotional triggers that
happen, that we're all runningfrom the emotional triggers
because they're unpleasant andwe don't know what to do with
them.
And so then, especially in thework that you and I do, people
come to us and they talk abouthow do I stop these triggers?
Well, the goal isn't to stopthe triggers, just like the goal
(22:25):
isn't to stop the running andit isn't to stop the triggers.
They're both those things thatare pointing to what we need to
look at, that are pointing towhat we need to look at, and
that is, I think, what getsmissed, because it has become so
natural to avoid and to stayaway from some of these topics.
We think the symptoms are theproblem, instead of
(22:47):
understanding that's just thewarning sign or that's just the
light bulb coming on to say, hey, have a look at this.
And that's where it gets somisconstrued.
You know the amount of peoplethat say to me that they want to
work with me, they don't wantto deal with it, they don't have
to go to the emotions.
Okay, sure, I don't know howthat works, but we can try that.
(23:12):
But you know, that's just thenature of humankind, that's just
how we've been taught to dealwith all of this, instead of
being able to walk straight intoit when we're ready and when
it's time for us to do that.
So that's what's really hugeabout it.
And knowing that we avoid thetriggers because we know there's
(23:34):
something deeper underneath itthat we have no idea how to even
look at.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
And I think that's where it's understanding the
running instead of actuallybelieving for a second that the
running is ever going to stop.
And I think it's that mostthings that trigger us in this
lifetime is that if we had beentaught or shown this from a
young age, it wouldn't be as bigof a problem as it is for us
now.
Never mind the people makingfalse promises that as if the
(24:01):
running could stop someday.
But really the only day therunning stops is the day we take
our last breath while here inthis particular body, because
the journey has been done withthe things that we were meant to
explore and meant to understandabout ourselves in this
lifetime.
And that's a very differentjourney for every single person.
But, as we've said, it's thatthis journey is about each
individual exploring self intheir own unique way.
(24:21):
Neither person has it right orwrong, but just the way they're
simply meant to experience it.
So I think, when you turn theidea of running on its head a
little bit, that it's notsomething that we're trying to
stop, it's not something we'retrying to turn a blind eye to,
but it's actually a journeyinward, and all of these
different things along the way,as you said, are like signals on
(24:43):
guidance in its own way, aboutthe areas that our system wants
us to explore.
So it's about turning towardsourselves instead of the learned
way of not being allowed or notbeing able to look in about
what's going on.
So, like most things we talkabout, you always have to start
small, so what would be theadvice that you would offer
(25:03):
someone who can identify withwhat we've been talking about in
this episode that they've beenrunning their entire lives?
Where could that person beginif they want to understand
what's funding their run?
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Well, I think one of the first things is a bit of
that recognition of you know,we've been running away from
everything that is inside of us,that we're, you know, whatever
it is, I mean, and it's somulti-layered as we've just got
through saying.
But the very first step is torealize the answer lies within.
So, as you said, we've got toturn it on its head and start to
(25:37):
run towards us and towards whatit is we've been afraid of.
But that doesn't necessarilymean that we're going to jump in
and deal with the biggestissues first.
It just simply means we'regoing to start very small and go
oh, wait a second.
How can I turn and start tomeet me?
And what do I need to be ableto turn and meet me?
(26:00):
What kind of support do I need?
How am I going to find thatsupport?
And even if it's justacknowledging an emotion and
holding that acknowledgement,feel it, experience it, identify
it, name it.
That's a great start.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
I love that one and the reason why I love that one
is because the idea of any of usgoing back into our childhood
and actually exploring thedifferent negative experiences,
the traumatic experiences, thethings that we might have some
awareness, that is funding thisrun, nevermind all of the things
that we have currently are notaware of in the conscious mind,
that's stored in thesubconscious mind.
I think it's that we have tofirst of all build a
(26:41):
relationship with the emotions,because if we jump straight into
those experiences, it's alwaysgoing to be too overwhelming,
it's always going to be too much.
Even if someone who's beenexploring it for decades and
years and so experienced, it canstill be too much for that
person to have to go back thereand to explore that part of them
.
So I think it's actually thebaby steps and the small steps
(27:01):
where you can start to educatethe mind and get comfort.
It's actually understanding theroots of fear itself for every
person to be breaking down eachof these negative emotions.
And there's so much amazingmaterial out there now that we
forget we can get our hands onto that wasn't available for us
to get access to.
It wasn't the local library 30years ago.
It's that now there's so manypeople that have dedicated their
(27:22):
lives to allowing the materialto exist to educate our logical
mind on fear, on anger, on shame, on guilt, on our ability to
control and escapism andconfrontation and pain.
Because when we have a solidfoundation of all of the things
I just mentioned there, thenit's we're more willing than to
(27:43):
actually go to the experiencesitself.
Because we have a foundation ofokay, now this isn't as scary
as it would have been withoutthis information.
Now it's still going to bechallenging when it comes to
having to do that journey, butit's about how do we make it,
one step at a time, easier,because each step does make a
huge difference in our abilityto process it, instead of
(28:04):
running away from it once again.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Well, one of the things that I find amazing and
it's a great exercise for ourlearners and you'll find out
exactly where you are on thisjourney if you sat down and made
a list of all the emotions youexperience in a day.
Now, what's interesting aboutthat is the average person knows
three or four emotions and theyrely and put everything in
(28:30):
those categories and they mightfall in those categories, but
there are different emotions and, as we talk about different
layers, there's different layersof emotions and there's
different types of emotions.
And then I would even challengeyou further is the minute we
say make a list of the emotionsthat you're aware of, notice how
(28:50):
many of those are what you putin the negative basket, and then
how many positive emotions doyou experience on what you deem
as positive emotions on a dailybasis?
And you might find yourselfvery surprised at how few that
you're aware of, because we doso much of that categorizing and
(29:12):
so, like you said, that is thatfirst small step.
There's so much richness injust starting to explore that.
And when you start to explorethat, like you'd be surprised
how many times when I talk topeople when I say okay, so if
you don't want this, what do youwant?
And they cannot even identifythat because they've been
(29:36):
swirling around in the swamp forso long that they don't know
what's outside of the swamp.
Long that they don't knowwhat's outside of the swamp.
So that is, I think, for all ofus.
Once we have those emotions,like you're saying and like you
just said before, then if we'regoing to delve into any of the
stuff from the past, at least wehave a reference point, yeah,
(29:58):
as to how we can identify whatit was and have the
understanding of what it wasmeant to teach us yeah, because
now we have, uh, we're running.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
We're running in a direction instead of in circles.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Yes, yes, very much so.
And I think as you go throughthat practice, gareth, learning
to name those feelings.
And here's a beautiful thing Goon the internet today and
there's 50 million differentemotion wheels that will tell
you all the different emotionsand you might be surprised how
(30:30):
few you have in your vocabularyand how can you expand that.
But then it's about reallybeing able to name it.
And then the final well, notthe final, but one of the bigger
things is, as you start thisjourney, turning around facing
yourself instead of running away, doing it with kindness and
with compassion, because we'vebeen taught to do it with
(30:54):
expectation and get to thatfinal result instead of going oh
I'm so sorry that you've beenrunning away from that for so
long, I'm so sorry you felt somisunderstood in that for so
long, because our first thing isto turn around and criticize
ourselves and create somethingelse to run from.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Absolutely.
It's constantly funding thatand it's always become so much
bigger in our heads and what itactually is.
Because you're saying we'vejust never had the know-how of
how to do it, but we've alwaysknown what we don't want, as you
mentioned, versus what weactually do want, and a lot of
us secretly do want tounderstand these things going on
beneath us.
But when you have nothing butpeople around you who don't talk
(31:35):
about it and don't want toexplore it and can't explore it,
you can see how this can go onfor decades in any of our lives,
of it just continuing to buildwith time before life once again
brings it up right into ourfaces and goes now it's time and
I think the other thing to beaware of as you're on this
journey as I'm sure most peoplewho are listening to our podcast
(31:55):
probably already know is onceyou turn around and you start
facing some of the things thatyou've been running from,
knowing that you're still goingto be running on some levels.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
But your world changes in the fact that the
more you understand your journey, the more you understand the
process that you've been through, how you're looking at the
world starts to change, and thatlandscape changes with the
people that you have closest toyou, which is a natural process.
(32:27):
But for so long we have seenthat as a negative, and so we
wonder why it is.
People come and go from ourlives and we want to blame
ourselves or blame theconfrontation, or blame the
situations, instead ofrecognizing that those level of
awarenesses have just changed.
And so, therefore, as theuniverse does on such a polite
(32:51):
level, it always brings you newpeople to play with on a
different game field.
You know, I remember when videogames first became available
and we'd play these and it wasso basic and simple.
Then you'd get to the nextlevel and it'd get a little bit
(33:12):
harder.
But now you look at the videogames that are out there, and
it's just mocking what we do inlife, basically, and so you're
equipped with the idea of whatit's going to look like.
It's just how do you apply itto yourself.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
So I think that's what's interesting when we're
talking about running and allthe different steps we take
towards understanding why thatis so important for any of us in
our day-to-day lives and havinga self-compassion,
understanding that it is thehuman experience and not being
so hard on ourselves.
And then when we understand ourfears the only way to begin to
(33:50):
understand our fears is actuallyto show it with more kindness
and removing any of the shamethat comes along with that.
And it's really that whenyou're in the present day and
understanding that, you see howrunning has evolved and changed
in many different waysthroughout our lives, as we're
talking about the start of theepisode, so even though we might
be running from something verydifferent present day than when
(34:12):
we were 30 years ago, is thatyou can see how they're all
linked in different aspects ofthe life or the lessons or the
understandings that we stilldon't quite fully grasp or
understand about ourselves.
And I think sometimes is that wehave to find that
self-compassion towardsourselves, especially when we do
realize that we are runningfrom something.
Because even when we have thatawareness that we are running,
(34:34):
it doesn't mean that we'reactually allowed by the energy
at times to take action in theways we would like to or what we
would want to.
And I think it's that, as we'vetalked about in many episodes
before, is that even if we arein a relationship that we know
is not healthy, might be abusiveor toxic in some ways, it's
easy for someone else to haveinput and say just leave, just
walk away, stop running awayfrom your problems.
(34:55):
Everyone has an opinion on whatyou should be doing or what
action you should take now.
But you and I both know it'sactually never been that simple
and that's a very different kindof running, if you know what I
mean.
Because even though you'reaware that you're running the
fear patterns of anything,you're actually not running away
from the situation becauseyou're quite self-aware that
you're living in that toxicity,you're living in that abusive
relationship in this currentexample.
(35:17):
So I think it's that we have tohave self-compassion at times of
understanding the fears thatare present and we can run have
that self-awareness at times ofunderstanding the fears that are
present and we can run, havethat self-awareness.
But that is actually thejourney of us growing a
relationship with all of theabove to be able to actually
take that action that we mightbe aware that we have to take at
some point, but we can't fakethat action until it's actually
(35:38):
time for it to occur.
So I just think we can be veryhard at times to say, yeah, I'm
running away from my problems,but we both know that's not
always a simple choice thatwe're just making on an ongoing
basis.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
I couldn't agree more , and that is what I think the
conundrum for so many people isis trying to work out whether
they're running away from it orwhether they're staying in a
toxic situation.
You know, just to try andunderstand.
But, as you and I both havesaid so many times in the past,
what's for you won't go past youand you.
(36:13):
You know if, if you aren't ableto leave for whatever reason,
you know whether that be afriendship, whether that be work
, whether that not just talkingabout personal relationships
there's a good chance that wehaven't gotten the wisdom that
we're supposed to gain in thatparticular situation just yet,
(36:33):
and so it isn't always just asimple choice of that's it.
I'm out of here.
It just isn't, and you know, Ithink that part is so hard to
help people understand.
But again, once you've turnedinward, if you're really
listening, you know the moment.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
You become aware of the moment that it is time if
you are meant to walk away fromsomething, and then you can look
at it as not running.
You know, and the example I useall the time is my marriage.
I know I overturned everysingle stone to make that
marriage work.
A lot of people thought Ishould have left many years
earlier than I did and Icouldn't.
(37:12):
But the moment I knew I hadgotten the wisdom that I was
meant to get, I knew then it wastime to end the marriage.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
And I think what's something I might say here this
might be a little bitcontroversial, but I think it's
only when you've been through itmaybe you can apply it that
sometimes staying is listeningto your intuition until it's
time to actually leave, told byyour intuition in a different
way, because people thinkstaying is you not listening to
your intuition, where sometimesstaying is you listening to your
intuition because you'reactually not allowed to leave
(37:43):
just yet.
But that can be a veryconfusing thing, I just said for
people, because you know itfeels like a super huge
contradiction actually to whatyour intuition is telling you.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
Well.
So, for example, when I firststarted to realize that the
marriage wasn't going to work, Iwanted to leave because I was
demonizing him and I wasfocusing on all of his faults.
I couldn't leave because of myown fears, my own insecurities.
I didn't think I'd survive.
I didn't want that to happenfor my kids.
(38:15):
As that evolved, because Ireally want people to have an
understanding of how this works.
As that evolved, I was likefine, I'll work on myself, as I
do with everything, fighting itand kicking it.
Okay.
Then, when I got to that point,when it was time to leave, it
was no longer about him.
(38:36):
The understanding wascompletely about me.
And also I got to then gain,you know, the wisdom of why that
whole relationship needed tohappen for me in the first place
.
So it was almost as if it cameand did a complete circle and
had tied itself up in a nicelittle bow for myself.
(38:58):
Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (39:00):
It does.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
It was like the intuition give you the insight
that one day you would leave,but it just wouldn't be now yeah
, yeah, and that was frustratingbecause everything pointed to I
needed to go, but I couldn't doit and even in that I was
beating myself up, as so manypeople do.
But when the intuition came thatnow it's done, there was a
(39:24):
completely different outlook onthe whole relationship and there
was gratitude on one or twolevels not on all levels at that
point, because it's emotionalthing that happens, but on one
or two levels there wasgratitude for the relationship
because what it had taught meabout me.
So hopefully that doesn't makeit quite as controversial what
(39:44):
you had said, because when youhave a real life example to
understand it, I was amazed thevery first time I knew that that
marriage wasn't going to work.
Did I have any understandingthat I had made a contract with
this person to help me learn tostand up for myself?
No, I did not.
And while I was demonizing him,there's no way I could see that
(40:06):
this was about me learning howto stand up for me and find my
own voice.
But by the time I left I hadfound my voice and it wasn't
screaming and yelling, it wasvery quiet, but it was very
certain and that is what makesthe difference, I think, and if
you can have that, you can walkaway then with a completely
(40:27):
different outlook and it doesn'tbecome the war that sometimes
these things become.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
But I think that's why it's interesting.
When you explore all thedifferent things that we have
been in this life, running fromour relationship with those
components where the growth hascome, and no matter who you ask,
it's like.
Or if you would say to someoneI know you're running from that
and it's like, yeah, that and200 other things yes, like you
just pointed out, one of many.
But I think everyone has thosedifferent elements with us
(40:55):
because as long as there's goingto be fear as part of the human
emotion, there's always goingto be something we're running
from that's eventually going tocatch up to show us something
for us to grow from, and then weput that down or we visit that
at a different stage in life andwe go again.
So we finish it with that timein our lives, we put it down and
then we most likely revisit ina different stage in our lives.
(41:17):
So I think this was reallyinteresting about this whole
concept of running and this ideathat we've all been taught,
especially in spirituality ortransformation, that our lives
are meant to be peaceful 100% ofthe time and the running has to
stop.
I've yet to meet one personwhere it has been that simple or
that easy or that realistic intheir day-to-day lives.
(41:39):
So I think it's when we haveconversations like this, where I
know, when I started to thinkof it this way, through many
different teachings and throughmichael, it'll it give me
permission to actually have adeep breath so it gives me
permission so I don't have tohave it figure out all the times
.
Running from different elementsis actually quite a normal thing
.
It's part of the humanexperience.
I don't have to feel have aterrible relationship with fear.
(42:02):
I don't have or is spiritualenlightenment feeling no fear at
all.
And I think people get caughtup in this.
And when you're justexperiencing the of what it
means to be human is that we canput these unrealistic
expectations or pressures onourselves and it's never enough.
But when you begin tounderstand that that is just a
part of the human experiencethat we're all here to have and
we begin to understand that it'samazing the new kind of
(42:23):
relationship we start buildingwith self and with life itself,
I couldn't have said it better.
Speaker 1 (42:28):
I agree 100% with that.
Thanks so much for listening.
If you enjoyed this episode,then you might want to check out
our online community.
We built it to offer you thecomfort of having a supportive
community by your side, nomatter where life takes you.
Connect with like-mindedindividuals through our app.
(42:50):
Navigate each step of thejourney together with us by
joining our Gareth Michaelcommunity.
Here are a few of the thingsyou're going to get.
You'll get exclusive real-timeaccess to live recording and
events.
Advanced access to each newepisode.
The opportunity to askquestions directly of Gareth and
I.
(43:10):
Input into what topics we coverin the show.
Access to exclusive content notavailable anywhere else.
To learn more about ourcommunity, please go to
wwwgarethmichaelcom.
Thanks again, and I hope youguys are having a lovely week.
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