February 10, 2025 • 40 mins
In this episode of the Practical Spirituality Podcast, hosts Gareth and Kim explore the ways in which we experience fear and the role it plays in our personal journeys. They look at how fear can either paralyze people or push them toward personal growth. They encourage listeners to recognise fear as more than just a negative emotion to be avoided and show how confronting our fears can pave the way for resilience and empowerment.
Gareth and Kim delve into fear’s primal origins, highlighting the ancient survival mechanisms that still influence modern life. They address the universal experience of fearing inadequacy and failure, sharing personal stories, practical tools and strategies for facing fear head-on.
Throughout their discussion, Gareth and Kim also consider the connections between fear and other emotions like love and grief, emphasizing the value of embracing emotions rather than trying to eliminate them. They encourage listeners to take responsibility for their fears, recognizing that although fear may never fully disappear, understanding it leads to increased confidence and self-awareness.
Become a Community Member at https://community.garethmichael.com/ to join our community and get early access to new episodes, answers to your personal questions and so much more.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:12):
Welcome back to the Practical Spirituality Podcast.
We are so excited to have youon this journey with us, where
we explore all elements of mind,body, emotions and soul through
the lens of everyday life.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Hello Kim.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Hello Gareth, how are you?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
I'm doing good this morning.
How are you doing?
I'm doing well.
I think this is anotherinteresting universal topic for
us to discuss.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
I think so too.
I think this morning we'regoing to talk about feeling the
fear.
Why did you choose this topic?
Let me just ask you thatquestion to start with.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Well, one.
As I mentioned, it's a universalexperience that we all go
through and I think, no matterhow much you do on this journey,
study yourself, explore it'sthat life continues to get.
Creative in creating new fearsor having us explore past fears,
because behind all fear isgrowth of understanding.
Creative in creating new fearsor having us explore past fears,
because behind all fear isgrowth of understanding self in
(01:09):
a new way, in mind, body,emotion.
So of our human experience, Ithink what most human beings
tend to struggle with,regardless of what area it is of
their life, is that if ourlogical mind doesn't have a
basic understanding of why itexists, there's automatically
going to be restrictions orblockages of our ability to
process it or accept it into ourlives.
(01:31):
Even though, as we talk aboutoften on the podcast, there's
always going to be challenges.
You're never going to acceptanything 100, but when it's
something in a societal senseit's never been discussed or
talked out there's going to bemore resistance than maybe there
should be, especially wheneight point, whatever.
Billion people all experiencefear in their own way and that
is all unique to them.
So I think just having thisbroader, generalized
(01:52):
conversation about fear and theimportant role it plays in all
of our experience is animportant one.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
I think the other thing that we're going to say
about this is, as much as we doour best to avoid fear, it's
unavoidable and that, as youwere just saying, we're going to
experience it throughout ourwhole entire life.
And I've just heard a bunch ofpeople go click, change the
channel.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Switch the station Switch stations.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
But seriously, I think one of the most important
things to realize about the fear, like you just said, it's a
universal feeling that we allfeel and that it is going to
come up throughout our wholeentire life.
Yet one of the number onethings and I don't even know if
we're taught this, I think it'sinstinctual in some ways that we
(02:41):
, our mind wants however we wantto say it is to avoid the fear.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
And it's so counterintuitive that people
don't understand that in orderto grow, we must feel the fear
and walk through it and get tothe other side to see that we're
okay.
Yet our instincts say avoid thefear, stay in our comfort zone
and don't go anywhere.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
And until we're able to acknowledge that we
experience the fear, have anawareness that we're
experiencing the fear or thatwe're triggered, or that it
stops us from pursuing something, but we do not have the ability
to actually acknowledge it in away that is needed in order for
us to grow from it and to growwith it, and for the fear to
continue to evolve and changealongside our growth on this
(03:42):
path.
Because, as we talk about often,there's no deleting it.
We're not trying to erase anyof these experiences.
We're not trying to erase anyof these human emotions that we
all go through, but there is areason to why it exists with us.
But there's also a reason towhy we don't none of us have a
good relationship with fear whywe try to avoid it or bury it.
So that's what's interestingabout it is that there's a
(04:04):
reason behind this all, but onceagain, when it's never just
talked out in an open discussion.
You and I are both aware thatit's going to be a lot of
sentences or things said on thisepisode.
That's going to sound great onpaper, but in reality, we all
know when we're triggered orthese emotions come up.
It's very strong, but we allhave to start somewhere, and I
always say educating the mind,both subconsciously and
(04:26):
consciously, is always a greatplace to start in order to build
a relationship with any part ofus.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Well, I almost want to laugh at that statement,
because I go.
You can educate my logical mindall you want.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
I've been trying.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
I know you've been trying for a while, but you can
educate the logical mind all youwant.
That doesn't change whathappens inside of somebody when
the fear rises to the surfaceand before we get too deep into
it.
You know the goal of feeling.
The fear can be very empoweringif you're able to sit back and
(05:03):
sit through the tension of whatthat brings up inside of you.
However, it never feelscomfortable.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
No, no, it's not meant to, it's not meant to by
design.
The whole point of understandingthe fear and wanting to explore
it is continue to reduce itsintensity in our system.
That actually dictates ourdecision making and gets rid of
our logical thinking fully incertain moments.
So if it's an intensity as wetalked about in previous
episodes of an eight out of 10,that's going to actually dictate
(05:33):
how we make decisions or whatwe do in certain moments,
whereas if it's a three out of10, you're still experiencing
the fear, but your logical mind,your ability to make a
different decision in thatmoment is possible.
And I think this is when itcomes to any of our emotions in
some way.
But in this particular episode,of course, we're going to be
focusing on fear.
And again, it's never clean,cut and simple and it's
(05:56):
different for every person, butyou have to start somewhere.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
I just laugh because you know, as we both know, I
have a very personalrelationship with fear and have
done my entire life, and so whenyou go, it's going to go down
out of three out of 10 and itfeels more easy to make a
decision or move forward.
I think, yeah, okay, it stillnever ceases to floor me when
the fear hits and maybe that'sbecause for a long time for me
(06:44):
andbody experiences a lot oftimes even though you have grown
and you've moved through a lotof stuff, it still feels
familiar to that survival fear.
So there are different levelsof the fear.
Like we were going to say,we've got the survival fear that
we have, we have like generalfear, then we have societal fear
(07:04):
, we have that emotional andpsychological fear, and so
there's varying degrees of fearthat we all have.
And one of the things I thinkthat we kind of from a very
young age and this is where Isay it gets to be a maladaptive
coping mechanism we try to avoidthat fear because it feels so
(07:29):
uncomfortable in the body and,like you said, because we're not
having these conversations, wedon't understand that as we move
through the fear then weactually gain insight and wisdom
in order to feel stronger innew circumstances.
But when you've had a lot offear to start with in early
childhood, that I think you godirectly to the survival fear
(07:53):
each time fear comes up.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Which makes a lot of sense, and I think that's what
can be very frustrating aboutthe human experience, especially
if you have been willing to dothe journey and have spent years
investing into yourself.
And that's what I was sayingearlier that even if you have
been willing to do the journeyand have spent years investing
into yourself and that's what Iwas saying earlier that even if
you get shallow and I know we'redeeply simplifying this, okay,
but if you have a certain fearand it wasn't eight out of ten
in your system, and then you gotit down to a three out of ten
(08:18):
be able to process through it inthose moments, it never ceased
to amaze me how life will createa new fear that we didn't even
know we had.
Present day, because we'reconstantly being exposed to new
experiences, new people and, yes, there might be links to our
past, as there is for any partof us, but it's that it's an
ongoing journey that'sconstantly unfolding, with past
(08:40):
fears, present fears and fearsstill yet to come.
So it's never, it's not justone thing, as we both know, or
it's not simplified.
It's that it's multi-layered,because we actually run way more
fears than I think any of usactually understand or have ever
explored.
Even though you're aware of feargetting in the way, it doesn't
mean you've actually ever hadthe opportunity to explore.
Okay, so why do I have a fearof public speaking, or a fear of
(09:02):
failure, or a fear of being ina relationship, or a fear of not
being good enough?
It's like we're all aware thatthose fears run in us when met
with life, present day.
But to actually explore andunderstand what are the root of
these and then what does thatactually mean moving forward?
For me, no, we haven't.
A lot of us haven't had theopportunity to receive that
information, for it to make adifference and that build a
(09:23):
better relationship with fear.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
And I think a lot of that comes down to understanding
that the basic instinct of fearis that survival mechanism,
Like it was built in manycenturies ago when we were not
living in the modern day societythat we're living in today.
It was there to keep us safefrom, you know, man eating
dinosaurs and fire and that sortof thing.
(09:46):
That happened way back when.
So it is very much a survivaltechnique.
However, depending on what yourexperience is, when that does
get triggered you can't go.
Oh, I just have a fear ofpublic speaking.
You feel like, oh, I'm actuallygoing to die here and you can
(10:06):
tell me all you want, that it'sgoing to be fine if I stand up
there on the stage, but that'snot what my body is telling me
because the body goes into thatphysical reaction from the very
first time, whatever thatparticular thing might be it
might be the racing heart, thesweating palms.
(10:27):
For me, some of the things thatwould happen is my throat would
literally constrict and I wouldfind it very difficult to
breathe.
So I understand this topic verywell for so many people and
that's why I think it'simportant to explain that.
There's a couple of clichephrases out there, but one of
(10:50):
them literally is one of thereasons why I think I managed to
start moving through some of myfears, and that was false
evidence appearing real, and sowhen it was explained to me like
that, I was like it doesn'tfeel false.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Yeah, when it was explained to me like that.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
I was like it doesn't feel false.
Yeah and no, it doesn't feelfalse.
But until you're able to sitwith all of those reactions that
are happening in your body bothmind, body and spirit and
emotions and you move through it, you go.
Okay, I did survive that.
It wasn't the big bad threat ofthe dinosaur going to eat me,
and I actually did well, and nowI have a reference point for
(11:28):
being able to conquer something.
But you have to do it enoughtimes so that the mind gets that
message, or that primitive partof the brain gets that message
is what I want to say.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Because that's incredibly relatable and I think
, even in changing therelationship I have with my
fears because we all have themas a part of human experience,
part of our growth path but thebiggest change in my brain was
an understanding that they aremy fears and, as I often talk
about taking responsibility forwhat is within us, it doesn't
mean that we have all theanswers immediately, because if
(11:59):
you did, that mean the journeywould be pointless.
You're doing a journey withthese fears and of why they're
there and how they're going tobe a part of you moving forward.
So when we actually learn howto take the time to explore them
, they unfold in their own timeand life gives us present day
experiences to explore them with, that be, with certain
individuals with certain workopportunities, with family
(12:23):
friends, like the list goes onof how fears can be presented to
any of us and within us in ourgiven day-to-day lives.
So we haven't been taught thetools to be able to have that
level of self-reflection and tostart building that relationship
that you and I talk about sooften.
But when you do that, you canstart to actually see the
(12:45):
purpose of fear or the benefitsof fear, because I think for
most of us.
We've only ever known thedownside of fear of that.
If I didn't have this, howamazing my life would be.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
I absolutely agree.
I absolutely agree.
But you do realize, in the samestatement you just said, we're
going to have these fears forthe rest of our life, and
building that relationship withthem where, if you had said that
to me 20 years ago, Idefinitely would have changed
the channel without a shadow ofa doubt, because it wouldn't
(13:17):
have made sense to me thenbecause the fear was so intense.
And so again, I think it is astep-by-step thing in waking up
to what fear actually role itplays in our life, because it
felt so instinctual for so longfor me and it did feel life or
death for a long time.
Once I managed to understandthat, because I had carried so
(13:42):
much of it in the past and thatI wasn't going to die, that was
the very first thing I had to do.
I wasn't actually going to die.
I actually lived through a fewof these things that I didn't
die and so I'm going to be okay.
Did I stop avoiding them at thatpoint?
No, because I didn't logicallyunderstand it, but I knew I
wasn't going to die.
So that's kind of like thatvery first step I think so many
(14:05):
people have to get through.
And it's after you've conqueredthat and you've started to have
more logical understanding ofwhat you did achieve, after
you've gotten through thesurvival instincts, that you can
then start to look at fear in adifferent way.
But I think I want to say, ifthere's anybody listening out
there where it does feel likeyou're going to die, you're at a
(14:26):
beginning stage of experiencingand developing a relationship
with fear, and so that is whereyou're probably going to want to
get the most external help atthat point, because when it is
that strong you can't possiblyknow you're going to be okay.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
And I say that because I remember how strong it
was in me and, if I'm going tobe really honest, can still be
that strong in me in moments,you know.
And it still never ceases toamaze me when that primal fear
comes up sometimes, howabsolutely convinced I can't
move forward.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
But I think that's what's interesting about when we
do feel that fear that you'retalking about, regardless of
what stage we're at or how itappears.
It's not a choice, but it istrying to show us something
about ourselves and I think it'sasking us to experience, to
grow, to explore.
But when you haven't beentaught that or that's what the
messaging is because you're sostuck in the emotion of it's
(15:27):
going to be paralyzing ourrelationship with these
individual fears change and theintensities change over a period
of time.
Of course, things still gettriggered in different ways.
A lot of these things we don'thave control over, but we can
educate ourselves on them and,as I was saying, is that life
continues to introduce new fearsbecause there are new
(15:47):
opportunities to grow.
But, of course, when you'restarting off and you don't
actually have a relationship oran understanding of how to grow
with fear because it's still soparalyzed, and then, of course,
it's going to seem like a crazyconcept and there's a lot of
things about this world.
It's like we, a lot of people,have gone through very traumatic
experiences.
You can also say that there'sproof out there of people who
(16:08):
have gone through similarexperiences, have worked through
it, have got to the other sideof understanding their
experiences with it.
But if you haven't been exposedto those people, it's always
going to seem like animpossibility that no one has
ever gotten through theseexperiences before.
No one's ever processed thosehorrible traumas.
So it is about who you surroundyourself with and whether you
actually understand what is evenpossible to.
(16:28):
So of course, kim, 20 years ago, didn't think that the fears
she was experiencing, or evenmyself, 20 years ago, didn't
think that the fears that I wasexperiencing could ever be
actually understood, felt orprocessed.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
We didn't have the exposure.
One of the tricky things thatour mind will do to us is say
well, you got through that fearbecause you're the lucky one,
you've had a nice life and youhaven't had to deal this.
And da da da, because we'reconstantly doing that comparison
.
And so when we hold onto thatcomparison, that your fear can't
be as bad as my fear, becauseyou're not feeling it in.
(17:03):
Do you know what I mean?
It's like but it's very real fora lot of people, and so that is
what we have to dispel a lot ofthe times that we want to
validate the fact that thatemotion is definitely coming up
in us and for us it's very real.
But we have to take thecomparison off, because we can't
possibly know what anybody elsefelt or experienced, and while
(17:27):
it looks like someone else movedthrough a fear very easily, you
look like you're moving throughyour fear very easily as well
to someone else that's just atan earlier stage of their
processing fear, and so I thinkthat's something that we need to
mention out there, because wedo this.
We're in a society today wherewe're constantly comparing, do
(17:48):
this.
We're in a society today wherewe're constantly comparing, and
so we always think our fear orwhatever we're experiencing, our
trauma, drama, whatever it isis 10 times worse than anybody
else's, and we have to get pastthat kind of thinking to be able
to explore it, because if we'realways holding on to but
they're the lucky ones orthey're the ones that get to
move through it easily, thenwe're never going to explore our
(18:09):
own fear.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Yeah, because I think people think well, if they have
a headache and then I have amigraine, you know, no, mine was
way worse, you know.
But again, how can we actuallycompare?
We can't and, as you weresaying there, it's not that
we're trying to either.
It's, if anything, in seeingother people on their journey or
their ability to processwhatever they went through.
(18:31):
There's similarities in thehuman experience, in mind, body,
emotions, across the board.
Yet, of course, ourunderstanding of that for any of
us is unique.
But, if anything, it shouldgive you hope that it is
possible for you to do that foryourself in your own way.
So the human experience can beunderstood, can be processed,
the things that we have gonethrough can be explored, but we
(18:52):
need to do it in our own time,with the right people and the
right help and the rightinformation.
But only any of us can decideto go explore that when the time
is right.
It can't be forced onto us.
You can't fake it till you makeit, but you have to start at
the start and start working yourway through, as we talked about
at the start of the episode.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
And I think it's very important to state that.
You know, every single persongoes through it.
There is no person on theplanet that doesn't experience
fear.
Just because of how, what youperceive they're experiencing
doesn't mean that they're notexperiencing fear at some level.
They're experiencing doesn'tmean that they're not
experiencing fear at some level.
(19:30):
And to that I want to go to astory that happened to me and
I've shared this before on thispodcast, but I think it's
important.
When I went to middle school andthat was the first time that we
changed classrooms and hadlockers and whole fun thing back
in America I had a lot of fear.
I had a lot of fear of people.
I had a lot of fear of gettingthings right.
I just was riddled with fear.
I could not find my locker.
(19:52):
When I would find my locker, Icouldn't remember what my
combination was for my locker.
So by the time I'd get to mylocker and try and get my locker
open, the bell would ring againand I'd have to get to my
classroom and I wouldn't knowwhere my classroom was and I'd
be so afraid of that, and so I'dgive up on my books and I'd go
running to the classroom, slideinto the back of the class, my
heart would be pounding andracing and I would look around
(20:15):
and hear all these kids withtheir books and they're calm.
And I remember I used to getvery angry about it because I'd
be like, how is it they can dothis and I can't, which I just
added another fear to thealready many fears I had,
because I was telling myselfthat I was somehow failing.
(20:36):
Well, I think that's the otherthing with fear that I wanted to
bring up is there is no suchthing as failing.
It's all different levels ofexperiencing and then becoming
aware of what we're experiencing, and each time that we manage
to move through something,whether we're aware of the
growth or not, we have had signsof growth.
(20:57):
So I think it's just, it's animportant thing to point out,
because we have such a wideaudience out there that we want
to make sure we cover everybody,because it's one thing to say,
oh yeah, we're going toexperience it and it's all for
our growth and it's a good thingwhere there'll be half the
audience going.
Can we just shoot these people?
So I'm sure if you've beenexperiencing fear, you know what
(21:20):
some of those, what the commontriggers for you are, and I
don't even think we need to gointo some of those.
But some of the common fears,like you said, are fear of
public speaking, the fear offailure, the fear of not being
the same as others, the fear ofnot succeeding, not being enough
.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
As soon as you say the word fear, things come to
people's minds instantlyinstantly instantly, but that is
where the journey is and wherethe growth can be for any of us,
and neither of us are trying tooverly simplify this topic.
We're trying to say that it'seasy because we all know it's
not, but that is where thejourney is.
With it, and I do think we areall very uneducated on why fear
(21:59):
needs to exist is kind of whywe're having this conversation,
because we're just trying tobring it to the forefront of
that, like most things, thatthere's eight plus billion of us
all experiencing this.
It's here for a reason.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
It's one of those things, as you say it like when
you go, we need to see that fearis here to teach us and that's
going to be here forever, thatthere's an instinctual no that
happens inside of me.
What are you talking about?
I've spent my whole life tryingto get rid of the fear.
Now you're telling me it'snever going to go anywhere.
It's that feeling.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Absolutely.
Let's take a step back fromthis week's episode and share
with everyone what we've been upto behind the scenes.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
We're really excited to be able to finally offer the
Gareth Michael community to eachof you.
The community offers a range ofbenefits, including access to
our live events, weekly podcastepisodes, articles,
self-checking questions, as wellas a community of individuals
you can connect with andinteract with along the way.
It's designed to offer yousupport, guidance and a safe
(23:03):
space on a day-to-day basis.
We'd love to have you join ourglobal community of like-minded
individuals.
That website address, again, iswwwgarethmichaelcom.
Now let's get back to thatepisode, shall we?
Speaker 2 (23:21):
And again, that's universal and very
understandable, and I think it'ssaying that our relationship
evolves and changes with thefears that we all have
individually.
Um, but it's like anyrelationship is that it takes
time to invest into it.
It's kind of like that conceptwe talked about before in a
previous episode.
You have to date yourself, youhave to date your fears, you
have to spend time with them,you have to invest into them,
(23:44):
otherwise how can you everexpect returns or dividends to
come back from these things thatare so misunderstood?
But if we try to delete them,good luck with that, because
they're always going to be apart of us.
So therefore, if we had beentold long ago, this isn't going
anywhere.
So I'd advise you to start toget to know them now.
It definitely would have been asimpler way to have a
relationship with self as wejourney through life.
(24:06):
I'm not saying it certainlymakes it 100 times easier, but
I'm saying there's not.
At least our logical mind has aplace to start and we then have
tools that we can use when fearstrikes, or we understand that
there is something in it for us,and it's not just all downside
all of the time, because you cansee how that is so draining and
exhausting, and then we beatourselves up and it's just the
(24:29):
books aren't balanced when itcomes to understanding our
relationship for your longerterm, and that's why I feel like
this is an importantconversation to have, because
evolving our perspective on itis really important, and we both
know that from our own journeysabout exploring our own fears.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Well, I think it's also interesting how life
teaches all of us, because Ithink if you had said to me, or
anybody had said to me, it's notgoing anywhere, so you know,
turn around and face it, I knowwhich choice I would have made.
I know which choice I wouldhave made.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
I know which choice you would that's why that detail
was hidden from you 20 yearsago.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
I and I think that's important to know that, because
I I really would have gone theother way because it was just so
big and so excruciating.
But if we have said that there'ssomething in it for us, and if
someone had said to me this is away to get to know you and to
actually see how strong youactually are and of course it's
(25:32):
that languaging again then Iwould have been like, okay, well
, maybe Are you sure, because Isure wasn't sure back then and
still sometimes today, I know,when I've slid into a comfort
zone and I don't want to get outof that comfort zone.
I am probably more aware of ittoday than I have ever been.
(25:54):
And you know, I thought thejourney that I jumped on all
those years ago was to eliminatethe fear and that I would have
some point in my life wherethere wouldn't be fear.
And what I can say for peoplewho are at the beginning stages
of exploring their fear is,after hearing that devastating
news, that it's going to be hereour entire life is it does show
(26:17):
up differently, and it shows upin, you know, because you gain
so much more confidence inyourself and your abilities to
move through different thingsand that resilience has grown.
The fear does not have thestronghold that it used to have.
It's there, you're aware of it.
You know you need to movethrough it, but it doesn't, it's
(26:38):
not all encompassing of it.
You know you need to movethrough it, but it doesn't.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
It's not all encompassing as it was in the
very beginning but I do want tosay is that if we expand this
out to say any of our emotions,and even if that is love, if
that is sadness, if it is grief,like we all know, how they're
all multi-layered emotions that,yes, you know, but they're
going to be with us for the restof our life, and and how we
experienced any of thoseemotions 20 years ago versus how
(27:00):
we experience them today,they've all evolved and changed,
but they're going to be with usto our last breath.
All of them and I think that'sthe point of the conversation is
that and the relationship wehave with all these different
emotions change and differ fromperson to person depending on
being exposed to and societalunderstandings and etc.
Etc.
But they all have something toteach us and show us about
(27:23):
ourselves in their own way, whenwe're willing to go there.
And I think fear is aninteresting one, because I do
think it's something that'soften in our face every single
day, but we've been taught tobury our head in the sand
because we haven't been shown ortaught or given the tools to
actually understand what it'strying to show us, even when it
is hard to see it or even whenwe don't want to see it, and
(27:45):
it's okay sometimes to bury yourhead in the sand, but to have
the awareness and own that, Ithink, is actually what we need
to do for ourselves.
But again, I also believethat's not a choice.
It's like 20 years ago Kimwasn't allowed to address
certain fears.
It's not that she was choosingto run away.
Do you know what I'm trying tosay?
I just thought I don't want tooversimplify this, because I do
(28:07):
think these things unfold asthey're meant to as we go
throughout life, for the thingsthat we're meant to understand
is that everything out there islike how do you conquer fear?
How do you get rid of fear?
How do you get rid of fear?
How do you delete fear?
It's always about trying toblow it up.
Life without this emotion.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
Well, I would have been on that bandwagon.
I know it's not the point ofwhat this journey is about.
I think if we can sit back andlook and see that this journey
is about growth and evolutionand that we cannot grow without
experiencing some of thesethings, because when we first
were learning to walk, that wasscary.
(28:46):
When we were first learning tostand up or when we were first
learning to ride our bike, allof it has those elements of fear
, but no one brings that logicalpoint to it as we're going
through it.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
Exactly, and I think this is why, when it comes to
when we do eventually want toexplore these things, then you
have people telling us that youcan just delete it.
We can never experience fearagain because, as you said, it's
it's the easier sell.
People, of course, are going tobuy into the idea of that, but
then you actually go throughlife and realize that all these
emotions are doing the journeywith you, regardless of how many
(29:18):
people told you that you couldget rid of it.
It's like every spiritual bookhas promised you spiritual
enlightenment and spiritualawakening I, I would, I would
agree with that.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
But, as you said, everything happens here as as
it's meant to be happening here,and I think that little
trickster of you can eliminateit, you can conquer it is one of
the reasons many of us stepinto it, because we think, oh, I
can conquer this and so I jumpinto it and then but the layers
of conditioning that that adds,it actually extends years of the
(29:49):
journey is what you and I oftencome back to going.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Oh only if I had a known but, that is the journey.
So I know we're, so to speak,arguing both sides of it and
there is no right or wrong inhow it unfolds, and I think
that's why, looking back andseeing the journey that any of
us go on, it's just, it'srefreshing to be able to talk it
out and I think that's whatgoes back to.
(30:14):
It's not talked out enough fromeveryone's experiences, and I
think it can be refreshing tounderstand that it's always
going to be from everyone'sexperiences, and I think it can
be refreshing to understand thatit's always going to be a part
of us, instead of having anexpectation or conditioning that
maybe someday I live without itcompletely.
I don't think that'snecessarily healthy longer term
either, but it doesn't mean ithas to control or dictate every
part of our lives in the ways itonce did right and I agree.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
And I would say to you, compared to the beginning
of my journey, my fears feel, alot of the time, almost
non-existent.
They show up in different waysand it's far more subtle and it
causes me to have moreself-reflection in order to
understand those fears, order tounderstand those fears, and so
(31:02):
that feels a whole lot gentlerto me today than what it was in
the beginning.
But I guess the point I wastrying to make is, if I had
believed I couldn't conquer themor eliminate them, I don't know
if I would have stepped in.
So that hearing those words inthe beginning is what caused me
to step in.
And now that I've been into it,I go.
And now that I've been into it,I go.
Oh, it's just really showing mehow much there's one more step
(31:22):
up I can make.
I'm just continually steppingup in my own life.
It's not stepping up accordingto society, it's not stepping up
in comparison to anyone else.
It's about stepping up in myown life and who I am as a
person and what I'm meant to bedoing here on the planet.
Does that make sense?
(31:49):
Where I think if we could bringit back to that it's our inner
journey and stop looking atwhat's happening out there and
who and what everybody else isdoing and how they're walking
through their fears.
That's going to change theconversation completely within
ourself, yeah, and so once we'vedone that, it's about okay.
How do you yourself, throughyour journey, start to walk
(32:11):
through these different fearsthat are showing up in your life
?
Speaker 2 (32:14):
So I think that actually brings up some
interesting conversations thatwe need to have in this episode
about how do we begin to build arelationship with these fears
that we all have, because we'vetalked about how it can teach a
lot about ourselves.
It's a huge component of growth.
It's not going anywhere, butthen it doesn't stop us from
obviously experiencing thatintensity that we can have, that
(32:37):
life can present to any of usany given day.
So what are some of thepractical strategies that we can
lean into when it comes tofacing warfare?
Speaker 1 (32:47):
I know, for me, the very first thing that I did was
having that acronym falseevidence appearing real.
That really helped me a lot.
Like there are a few acronymsout there, but that one helped
me the most because I was like,okay, it's not real, it's not
really as bad as what I amimagining and what I'm
foreseeing in my mind.
(33:08):
And so if I can just graduallystart to have a relationship
with that and start to exposemyself little bits by little
bits and see that I'm going tobe okay and then also starting
to really recognize some of thetechniques that we've talked
about many times on this show,the self-soothing techniques,
the journaling techniques, thegrounding Grounding is really
(33:33):
great.
And then, of course, for menotice how I always preface that
for me, that's the whole reasonpresent moment awareness became
so important Because my mindwould jump ahead with the fear
so much and it would almostliterally paralyze me.
(33:53):
So one of the reasons thatpractice became so important was
because, the more I came backto this moment and would go look
, nothing bad is happening inthis moment.
I am okay.
I'm actually okay in thismoment.
I am not going to die, I justneed to slow my heart rate down.
I need to be here and see thatI'm safe.
Then I would take another stepforward, and of course, I didn't
(34:17):
do that on my own in thebeginning.
Like we have said so many timesin the past, if this is
something that is really big inyour life, you do want to get
some help with it from a trustedsource.
That's where I would start.
What about you?
Speaker 2 (34:34):
Because naturally, when we're experiencing fear a
lot of us, our minds can worryquite a bit also, and I remember
reading somewhere that worryingis worshipping the problem.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
Oh, that's a good little phrase.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
Being exposed to my fears head on, taking
responsibility for them, sayingthat they're mine, wanting to go
talk to the person that I trustabout them taking these small
steps.
It's that for every time I didthat, I felt I trust about them.
Taking these small steps isthat for every time I did that,
I felt I was getting strongerand stronger.
And yes, that was opening upnew fears, because, especially
when you push past or you evolvewith the old fears that you
(35:09):
maybe have carried for decades,then you're exposed to new
experiences in life, which comesnew fears that you didn't know
you had.
For every time time you keeppushing that, you do feel
stronger and more confidentwithin yourself that you can
actually do this life, so tospeak.
You're able to back yourself ina whole new way of mind, body,
emotions and the strength thatcan come from within.
(35:29):
About that it's a very hardthing to describe and I know you
and I both have experiencedthat I'm sure hopefully a lot of
listeners have too throughoutmany different areas of life.
But that system, or thatfeeling the fear, taking
responsibility for it, gotalking it out, then putting a
plan in place, that systemhasn't changed regardless of
when I experienced fearthroughout my life.
(35:51):
As I said, it's not thatsuddenly you don't feel any fear
and you're just running throughlife.
That's an unrealisticexpectation that we don't want
to set here on this podcast, butfinding a system that works for
you for any time fear istriggered in order to help you
understand where the growth isin it.
For you, present day, that'sgold within itself, and that
(36:12):
formula can be different foreach person, but it's your
responsibility to understand,okay, what is that for you and
to keep moving forward with itonce you find it.
Speaker 1 (36:23):
What's in it for you, but being able to recognize
that, once you've gotten what'sin it for you, that's the gift,
the wisdom, and that wisdom initself is what causes the
confidence to start to grow.
And so, instead of running awaybecause we're so afraid of it,
(36:45):
when we can go, okay, if I canturn this around and find out
what's on the other side of itfor me, and if I can take that
wisdom and integrate it into mylife, then the world starts to
open up in a lot of differentways that we've never
experienced before, and so I'm aperfect example of that.
You know, I can remember when Istarted this journey, way back
(37:06):
when the first therapist that Isaw told me I was a hopeless
cause, and so it brings me greatjoy to sit here today and to be
able to talk to other peopleabout how to move through some
of this and be able to be thatliving example of if I can do it
, anybody can do it, and peoplewho meet me today do not believe
(37:27):
that I was riddled and I meanriddled with fear.
That so much.
So if you would say hello to me, I would turn purple and red
and shake and couldn't talk, andnow you can't shut me up.
It's also about celebratingthose small wins, every time you
overcome one.
Really, the way I put it tomyself and to a lot of people as
(37:52):
they're going through this is Isee it as my bank account.
Every time I have a win, Ideposit, but you have to get
enough deposits in there so thatif there's a withdrawal, you
can cover the withdrawal, andthat's how.
That is literally how I saw itin the beginning.
So every single time I'd rackup a win over one of my fears,
(38:13):
it just got stronger andstronger and stronger and I knew
I had what I needed to movethrough the next one.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
And I think in us having this conversation, kim
because we said we were nottrying to oversimplify it
continuing to set more realisticexpectations of what the
journey is, with any of theseemotions or experiences, in this
case of our fears, is that Idon't think for anyone at the
start was it ever easy.
It's not meant to be, and eventhe journey with it.
Of course there's ups and downs, but with that wisdom that you
(38:43):
were talking about and even thatstrength from within, it
continuously encourages us towant to lean into it.
But there are certain dayswhere, yeah, we're going to want
to bury our head in the sand,regardless of how long we're on
this journey.
But then you also realize thatthat's okay too and that is also
(39:05):
part of the experience.
But then there's alwaystomorrow, so, like it evolves
and it changes all of the time,and that's where having that
compassion for ourselves iscelebrating those small wins as
they happen.
As you said, it all adds up, butit is all part of the growth
journey.
But, as I said, I don't havemany experiences of it being, of
this kind of conversation we'rehaving, of being able to be
exposed to this kind ofinformation.
I know there's parts of me 20years ago that definitely would
(39:26):
have thought this no differentto you, and that's to be
expected and to be understoodand there's nothing wrong with
that.
But it can be refreshing, Iguess, after all these years,
for how you and I talk aboutfear in our own journeys now
because, by God, it has evolveda lot for us both.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
It definitely has, definitely has.
Thanks so much for listening.
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(40:01):
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Thanks again, and I hope youguys are having a lovely week.
Welcome back to the Practical Spirituality Podcast.
We are so excited to have youon this journey with us, where
we explore all elements of mind,body, emotions and soul through
the lens of everyday life.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Hello Kim.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Hello Gareth, how are you?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
I'm doing good this morning.
How are you doing?
I'm doing well.
I think this is anotherinteresting universal topic for
us to discuss.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
I think so too.
I think this morning we'regoing to talk about feeling the
fear.
Why did you choose this topic?
Let me just ask you thatquestion to start with.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Well, one.
As I mentioned, it's a universalexperience that we all go
through and I think, no matterhow much you do on this journey,
study yourself, explore it'sthat life continues to get.
Creative in creating new fearsor having us explore past fears,
because behind all fear isgrowth of understanding.
Creative in creating new fearsor having us explore past fears,
because behind all fear isgrowth of understanding self in
(01:09):
a new way, in mind, body,emotion.
So of our human experience, Ithink what most human beings
tend to struggle with,regardless of what area it is of
their life, is that if ourlogical mind doesn't have a
basic understanding of why itexists, there's automatically
going to be restrictions orblockages of our ability to
process it or accept it into ourlives.
(01:31):
Even though, as we talk aboutoften on the podcast, there's
always going to be challenges.
You're never going to acceptanything 100, but when it's
something in a societal senseit's never been discussed or
talked out there's going to bemore resistance than maybe there
should be, especially wheneight point, whatever.
Billion people all experiencefear in their own way and that
is all unique to them.
So I think just having thisbroader, generalized
(01:52):
conversation about fear and theimportant role it plays in all
of our experience is animportant one.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
I think the other thing that we're going to say
about this is, as much as we doour best to avoid fear, it's
unavoidable and that, as youwere just saying, we're going to
experience it throughout ourwhole entire life.
And I've just heard a bunch ofpeople go click, change the
channel.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Switch the station Switch stations.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
But seriously, I think one of the most important
things to realize about the fear, like you just said, it's a
universal feeling that we allfeel and that it is going to
come up throughout our wholeentire life.
Yet one of the number onethings and I don't even know if
we're taught this, I think it'sinstinctual in some ways that we
(02:41):
, our mind wants however we wantto say it is to avoid the fear.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
And it's so counterintuitive that people
don't understand that in orderto grow, we must feel the fear
and walk through it and get tothe other side to see that we're
okay.
Yet our instincts say avoid thefear, stay in our comfort zone
and don't go anywhere.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
And until we're able to acknowledge that we
experience the fear, have anawareness that we're
experiencing the fear or thatwe're triggered, or that it
stops us from pursuing something, but we do not have the ability
to actually acknowledge it in away that is needed in order for
us to grow from it and to growwith it, and for the fear to
continue to evolve and changealongside our growth on this
(03:42):
path.
Because, as we talk about often,there's no deleting it.
We're not trying to erase anyof these experiences.
We're not trying to erase anyof these human emotions that we
all go through, but there is areason to why it exists with us.
But there's also a reason towhy we don't none of us have a
good relationship with fear whywe try to avoid it or bury it.
So that's what's interestingabout it is that there's a
(04:04):
reason behind this all, but onceagain, when it's never just
talked out in an open discussion.
You and I are both aware thatit's going to be a lot of
sentences or things said on thisepisode.
That's going to sound great onpaper, but in reality, we all
know when we're triggered orthese emotions come up.
It's very strong, but we allhave to start somewhere, and I
always say educating the mind,both subconsciously and
(04:26):
consciously, is always a greatplace to start in order to build
a relationship with any part ofus.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Well, I almost want to laugh at that statement,
because I go.
You can educate my logical mindall you want.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
I've been trying.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
I know you've been trying for a while, but you can
educate the logical mind all youwant.
That doesn't change whathappens inside of somebody when
the fear rises to the surfaceand before we get too deep into
it.
You know the goal of feeling.
The fear can be very empoweringif you're able to sit back and
(05:03):
sit through the tension of whatthat brings up inside of you.
However, it never feelscomfortable.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
No, no, it's not meant to, it's not meant to by
design.
The whole point of understandingthe fear and wanting to explore
it is continue to reduce itsintensity in our system.
That actually dictates ourdecision making and gets rid of
our logical thinking fully incertain moments.
So if it's an intensity as wetalked about in previous
episodes of an eight out of 10,that's going to actually dictate
(05:33):
how we make decisions or whatwe do in certain moments,
whereas if it's a three out of10, you're still experiencing
the fear, but your logical mind,your ability to make a
different decision in thatmoment is possible.
And I think this is when itcomes to any of our emotions in
some way.
But in this particular episode,of course, we're going to be
focusing on fear.
And again, it's never clean,cut and simple and it's
(05:56):
different for every person, butyou have to start somewhere.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
I just laugh because you know, as we both know, I
have a very personalrelationship with fear and have
done my entire life, and so whenyou go, it's going to go down
out of three out of 10 and itfeels more easy to make a
decision or move forward.
I think, yeah, okay, it stillnever ceases to floor me when
the fear hits and maybe that'sbecause for a long time for me
(06:44):
andbody experiences a lot oftimes even though you have grown
and you've moved through a lotof stuff, it still feels
familiar to that survival fear.
So there are different levelsof the fear.
Like we were going to say,we've got the survival fear that
we have, we have like generalfear, then we have societal fear
(07:04):
, we have that emotional andpsychological fear, and so
there's varying degrees of fearthat we all have.
And one of the things I thinkthat we kind of from a very
young age and this is where Isay it gets to be a maladaptive
coping mechanism we try to avoidthat fear because it feels so
(07:29):
uncomfortable in the body and,like you said, because we're not
having these conversations, wedon't understand that as we move
through the fear then weactually gain insight and wisdom
in order to feel stronger innew circumstances.
But when you've had a lot offear to start with in early
childhood, that I think you godirectly to the survival fear
(07:53):
each time fear comes up.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Which makes a lot of sense, and I think that's what
can be very frustrating aboutthe human experience, especially
if you have been willing to dothe journey and have spent years
investing into yourself.
And that's what I was sayingearlier that even if you have
been willing to do the journeyand have spent years investing
into yourself and that's what Iwas saying earlier that even if
you get shallow and I know we'redeeply simplifying this, okay,
but if you have a certain fearand it wasn't eight out of ten
in your system, and then you gotit down to a three out of ten
(08:18):
be able to process through it inthose moments, it never ceased
to amaze me how life will createa new fear that we didn't even
know we had.
Present day, because we'reconstantly being exposed to new
experiences, new people and, yes, there might be links to our
past, as there is for any partof us, but it's that it's an
ongoing journey that'sconstantly unfolding, with past
(08:40):
fears, present fears and fearsstill yet to come.
So it's never, it's not justone thing, as we both know, or
it's not simplified.
It's that it's multi-layered,because we actually run way more
fears than I think any of usactually understand or have ever
explored.
Even though you're aware of feargetting in the way, it doesn't
mean you've actually ever hadthe opportunity to explore.
Okay, so why do I have a fearof public speaking, or a fear of
(09:02):
failure, or a fear of being ina relationship, or a fear of not
being good enough?
It's like we're all aware thatthose fears run in us when met
with life, present day.
But to actually explore andunderstand what are the root of
these and then what does thatactually mean moving forward?
For me, no, we haven't.
A lot of us haven't had theopportunity to receive that
information, for it to make adifference and that build a
(09:23):
better relationship with fear.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
And I think a lot of that comes down to understanding
that the basic instinct of fearis that survival mechanism,
Like it was built in manycenturies ago when we were not
living in the modern day societythat we're living in today.
It was there to keep us safefrom, you know, man eating
dinosaurs and fire and that sortof thing.
(09:46):
That happened way back when.
So it is very much a survivaltechnique.
However, depending on what yourexperience is, when that does
get triggered you can't go.
Oh, I just have a fear ofpublic speaking.
You feel like, oh, I'm actuallygoing to die here and you can
(10:06):
tell me all you want, that it'sgoing to be fine if I stand up
there on the stage, but that'snot what my body is telling me
because the body goes into thatphysical reaction from the very
first time, whatever thatparticular thing might be it
might be the racing heart, thesweating palms.
(10:27):
For me, some of the things thatwould happen is my throat would
literally constrict and I wouldfind it very difficult to
breathe.
So I understand this topic verywell for so many people and
that's why I think it'simportant to explain that.
There's a couple of clichephrases out there, but one of
(10:50):
them literally is one of thereasons why I think I managed to
start moving through some of myfears, and that was false
evidence appearing real, and sowhen it was explained to me like
that, I was like it doesn'tfeel false.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Yeah, when it was explained to me like that.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
I was like it doesn't feel false.
Yeah and no, it doesn't feelfalse.
But until you're able to sitwith all of those reactions that
are happening in your body bothmind, body and spirit and
emotions and you move through it, you go.
Okay, I did survive that.
It wasn't the big bad threat ofthe dinosaur going to eat me,
and I actually did well, and nowI have a reference point for
(11:28):
being able to conquer something.
But you have to do it enoughtimes so that the mind gets that
message, or that primitive partof the brain gets that message
is what I want to say.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Because that's incredibly relatable and I think
, even in changing therelationship I have with my
fears because we all have themas a part of human experience,
part of our growth path but thebiggest change in my brain was
an understanding that they aremy fears and, as I often talk
about taking responsibility forwhat is within us, it doesn't
mean that we have all theanswers immediately, because if
(11:59):
you did, that mean the journeywould be pointless.
You're doing a journey withthese fears and of why they're
there and how they're going tobe a part of you moving forward.
So when we actually learn howto take the time to explore them
, they unfold in their own timeand life gives us present day
experiences to explore them with, that be, with certain
individuals with certain workopportunities, with family
(12:23):
friends, like the list goes onof how fears can be presented to
any of us and within us in ourgiven day-to-day lives.
So we haven't been taught thetools to be able to have that
level of self-reflection and tostart building that relationship
that you and I talk about sooften.
But when you do that, you canstart to actually see the
(12:45):
purpose of fear or the benefitsof fear, because I think for
most of us.
We've only ever known thedownside of fear of that.
If I didn't have this, howamazing my life would be.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
I absolutely agree.
I absolutely agree.
But you do realize, in the samestatement you just said, we're
going to have these fears forthe rest of our life, and
building that relationship withthem where, if you had said that
to me 20 years ago, Idefinitely would have changed
the channel without a shadow ofa doubt, because it wouldn't
(13:17):
have made sense to me thenbecause the fear was so intense.
And so again, I think it is astep-by-step thing in waking up
to what fear actually role itplays in our life, because it
felt so instinctual for so longfor me and it did feel life or
death for a long time.
Once I managed to understandthat, because I had carried so
(13:42):
much of it in the past and thatI wasn't going to die, that was
the very first thing I had to do.
I wasn't actually going to die.
I actually lived through a fewof these things that I didn't
die and so I'm going to be okay.
Did I stop avoiding them at thatpoint?
No, because I didn't logicallyunderstand it, but I knew I
wasn't going to die.
So that's kind of like thatvery first step I think so many
(14:05):
people have to get through.
And it's after you've conqueredthat and you've started to have
more logical understanding ofwhat you did achieve, after
you've gotten through thesurvival instincts, that you can
then start to look at fear in adifferent way.
But I think I want to say, ifthere's anybody listening out
there where it does feel likeyou're going to die, you're at a
(14:26):
beginning stage of experiencingand developing a relationship
with fear, and so that is whereyou're probably going to want to
get the most external help atthat point, because when it is
that strong you can't possiblyknow you're going to be okay.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
And I say that because I remember how strong it
was in me and, if I'm going tobe really honest, can still be
that strong in me in moments,you know.
And it still never ceases toamaze me when that primal fear
comes up sometimes, howabsolutely convinced I can't
move forward.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
But I think that's what's interesting about when we
do feel that fear that you'retalking about, regardless of
what stage we're at or how itappears.
It's not a choice, but it istrying to show us something
about ourselves and I think it'sasking us to experience, to
grow, to explore.
But when you haven't beentaught that or that's what the
messaging is because you're sostuck in the emotion of it's
(15:27):
going to be paralyzing ourrelationship with these
individual fears change and theintensities change over a period
of time.
Of course, things still gettriggered in different ways.
A lot of these things we don'thave control over, but we can
educate ourselves on them and,as I was saying, is that life
continues to introduce new fearsbecause there are new
(15:47):
opportunities to grow.
But, of course, when you'restarting off and you don't
actually have a relationship oran understanding of how to grow
with fear because it's still soparalyzed, and then, of course,
it's going to seem like a crazyconcept and there's a lot of
things about this world.
It's like we, a lot of people,have gone through very traumatic
experiences.
You can also say that there'sproof out there of people who
(16:08):
have gone through similarexperiences, have worked through
it, have got to the other sideof understanding their
experiences with it.
But if you haven't been exposedto those people, it's always
going to seem like animpossibility that no one has
ever gotten through theseexperiences before.
No one's ever processed thosehorrible traumas.
So it is about who you surroundyourself with and whether you
actually understand what is evenpossible to.
(16:28):
So of course, kim, 20 years ago, didn't think that the fears
she was experiencing, or evenmyself, 20 years ago, didn't
think that the fears that I wasexperiencing could ever be
actually understood, felt orprocessed.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
We didn't have the exposure.
One of the tricky things thatour mind will do to us is say
well, you got through that fearbecause you're the lucky one,
you've had a nice life and youhaven't had to deal this.
And da da da, because we'reconstantly doing that comparison
.
And so when we hold onto thatcomparison, that your fear can't
be as bad as my fear, becauseyou're not feeling it in.
(17:03):
Do you know what I mean?
It's like but it's very real fora lot of people, and so that is
what we have to dispel a lot ofthe times that we want to
validate the fact that thatemotion is definitely coming up
in us and for us it's very real.
But we have to take thecomparison off, because we can't
possibly know what anybody elsefelt or experienced, and while
(17:27):
it looks like someone else movedthrough a fear very easily, you
look like you're moving throughyour fear very easily as well
to someone else that's just atan earlier stage of their
processing fear, and so I thinkthat's something that we need to
mention out there, because wedo this.
We're in a society today wherewe're constantly comparing, do
(17:48):
this.
We're in a society today wherewe're constantly comparing, and
so we always think our fear orwhatever we're experiencing, our
trauma, drama, whatever it isis 10 times worse than anybody
else's, and we have to get pastthat kind of thinking to be able
to explore it, because if we'realways holding on to but
they're the lucky ones orthey're the ones that get to
move through it easily, thenwe're never going to explore our
(18:09):
own fear.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Yeah, because I think people think well, if they have
a headache and then I have amigraine, you know, no, mine was
way worse, you know.
But again, how can we actuallycompare?
We can't and, as you weresaying there, it's not that
we're trying to either.
It's, if anything, in seeingother people on their journey or
their ability to processwhatever they went through.
(18:31):
There's similarities in thehuman experience, in mind, body,
emotions, across the board.
Yet, of course, ourunderstanding of that for any of
us is unique.
But, if anything, it shouldgive you hope that it is
possible for you to do that foryourself in your own way.
So the human experience can beunderstood, can be processed,
the things that we have gonethrough can be explored, but we
(18:52):
need to do it in our own time,with the right people and the
right help and the rightinformation.
But only any of us can decideto go explore that when the time
is right.
It can't be forced onto us.
You can't fake it till you makeit, but you have to start at
the start and start working yourway through, as we talked about
at the start of the episode.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
And I think it's very important to state that.
You know, every single persongoes through it.
There is no person on theplanet that doesn't experience
fear.
Just because of how, what youperceive they're experiencing
doesn't mean that they're notexperiencing fear at some level.
They're experiencing doesn'tmean that they're not
experiencing fear at some level.
(19:30):
And to that I want to go to astory that happened to me and
I've shared this before on thispodcast, but I think it's
important.
When I went to middle school andthat was the first time that we
changed classrooms and hadlockers and whole fun thing back
in America I had a lot of fear.
I had a lot of fear of people.
I had a lot of fear of gettingthings right.
I just was riddled with fear.
I could not find my locker.
(19:52):
When I would find my locker, Icouldn't remember what my
combination was for my locker.
So by the time I'd get to mylocker and try and get my locker
open, the bell would ring againand I'd have to get to my
classroom and I wouldn't knowwhere my classroom was and I'd
be so afraid of that, and so I'dgive up on my books and I'd go
running to the classroom, slideinto the back of the class, my
heart would be pounding andracing and I would look around
(20:15):
and hear all these kids withtheir books and they're calm.
And I remember I used to getvery angry about it because I'd
be like, how is it they can dothis and I can't, which I just
added another fear to thealready many fears I had,
because I was telling myselfthat I was somehow failing.
(20:36):
Well, I think that's the otherthing with fear that I wanted to
bring up is there is no suchthing as failing.
It's all different levels ofexperiencing and then becoming
aware of what we're experiencing, and each time that we manage
to move through something,whether we're aware of the
growth or not, we have had signsof growth.
(20:57):
So I think it's just, it's animportant thing to point out,
because we have such a wideaudience out there that we want
to make sure we cover everybody,because it's one thing to say,
oh yeah, we're going toexperience it and it's all for
our growth and it's a good thingwhere there'll be half the
audience going.
Can we just shoot these people?
So I'm sure if you've beenexperiencing fear, you know what
(21:20):
some of those, what the commontriggers for you are, and I
don't even think we need to gointo some of those.
But some of the common fears,like you said, are fear of
public speaking, the fear offailure, the fear of not being
the same as others, the fear ofnot succeeding, not being enough
.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
As soon as you say the word fear, things come to
people's minds instantlyinstantly instantly, but that is
where the journey is and wherethe growth can be for any of us,
and neither of us are trying tooverly simplify this topic.
We're trying to say that it'seasy because we all know it's
not, but that is where thejourney is.
With it, and I do think we areall very uneducated on why fear
(21:59):
needs to exist is kind of whywe're having this conversation,
because we're just trying tobring it to the forefront of
that, like most things, thatthere's eight plus billion of us
all experiencing this.
It's here for a reason.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
It's one of those things, as you say it like when
you go, we need to see that fearis here to teach us and that's
going to be here forever, thatthere's an instinctual no that
happens inside of me.
What are you talking about?
I've spent my whole life tryingto get rid of the fear.
Now you're telling me it'snever going to go anywhere.
It's that feeling.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Absolutely.
Let's take a step back fromthis week's episode and share
with everyone what we've been upto behind the scenes.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
We're really excited to be able to finally offer the
Gareth Michael community to eachof you.
The community offers a range ofbenefits, including access to
our live events, weekly podcastepisodes, articles,
self-checking questions, as wellas a community of individuals
you can connect with andinteract with along the way.
It's designed to offer yousupport, guidance and a safe
(23:03):
space on a day-to-day basis.
We'd love to have you join ourglobal community of like-minded
individuals.
That website address, again, iswwwgarethmichaelcom.
Now let's get back to thatepisode, shall we?
Speaker 2 (23:21):
And again, that's universal and very
understandable, and I think it'ssaying that our relationship
evolves and changes with thefears that we all have
individually.
Um, but it's like anyrelationship is that it takes
time to invest into it.
It's kind of like that conceptwe talked about before in a
previous episode.
You have to date yourself, youhave to date your fears, you
have to spend time with them,you have to invest into them,
(23:44):
otherwise how can you everexpect returns or dividends to
come back from these things thatare so misunderstood?
But if we try to delete them,good luck with that, because
they're always going to be apart of us.
So therefore, if we had beentold long ago, this isn't going
anywhere.
So I'd advise you to start toget to know them now.
It definitely would have been asimpler way to have a
relationship with self as wejourney through life.
(24:06):
I'm not saying it certainlymakes it 100 times easier, but
I'm saying there's not.
At least our logical mind has aplace to start and we then have
tools that we can use when fearstrikes, or we understand that
there is something in it for us,and it's not just all downside
all of the time, because you cansee how that is so draining and
exhausting, and then we beatourselves up and it's just the
(24:29):
books aren't balanced when itcomes to understanding our
relationship for your longerterm, and that's why I feel like
this is an importantconversation to have, because
evolving our perspective on itis really important, and we both
know that from our own journeysabout exploring our own fears.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Well, I think it's also interesting how life
teaches all of us, because Ithink if you had said to me, or
anybody had said to me, it's notgoing anywhere, so you know,
turn around and face it, I knowwhich choice I would have made.
I know which choice I wouldhave made.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
I know which choice you would that's why that detail
was hidden from you 20 yearsago.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
I and I think that's important to know that, because
I I really would have gone theother way because it was just so
big and so excruciating.
But if we have said that there'ssomething in it for us, and if
someone had said to me this is away to get to know you and to
actually see how strong youactually are and of course it's
(25:32):
that languaging again then Iwould have been like, okay, well
, maybe Are you sure, because Isure wasn't sure back then and
still sometimes today, I know,when I've slid into a comfort
zone and I don't want to get outof that comfort zone.
I am probably more aware of ittoday than I have ever been.
(25:54):
And you know, I thought thejourney that I jumped on all
those years ago was to eliminatethe fear and that I would have
some point in my life wherethere wouldn't be fear.
And what I can say for peoplewho are at the beginning stages
of exploring their fear is,after hearing that devastating
news, that it's going to be hereour entire life is it does show
(26:17):
up differently, and it shows upin, you know, because you gain
so much more confidence inyourself and your abilities to
move through different thingsand that resilience has grown.
The fear does not have thestronghold that it used to have.
It's there, you're aware of it.
You know you need to movethrough it, but it doesn't, it's
(26:38):
not all encompassing of it.
You know you need to movethrough it, but it doesn't.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
It's not all encompassing as it was in the
very beginning but I do want tosay is that if we expand this
out to say any of our emotions,and even if that is love, if
that is sadness, if it is grief,like we all know, how they're
all multi-layered emotions that,yes, you know, but they're
going to be with us for the restof our life, and and how we
experienced any of thoseemotions 20 years ago versus how
(27:00):
we experience them today,they've all evolved and changed,
but they're going to be with usto our last breath.
All of them and I think that'sthe point of the conversation is
that and the relationship wehave with all these different
emotions change and differ fromperson to person depending on
being exposed to and societalunderstandings and etc.
Etc.
But they all have something toteach us and show us about
(27:23):
ourselves in their own way, whenwe're willing to go there.
And I think fear is aninteresting one, because I do
think it's something that'soften in our face every single
day, but we've been taught tobury our head in the sand
because we haven't been shown ortaught or given the tools to
actually understand what it'strying to show us, even when it
is hard to see it or even whenwe don't want to see it, and
(27:45):
it's okay sometimes to bury yourhead in the sand, but to have
the awareness and own that, Ithink, is actually what we need
to do for ourselves.
But again, I also believethat's not a choice.
It's like 20 years ago Kimwasn't allowed to address
certain fears.
It's not that she was choosingto run away.
Do you know what I'm trying tosay?
I just thought I don't want tooversimplify this, because I do
(28:07):
think these things unfold asthey're meant to as we go
throughout life, for the thingsthat we're meant to understand
is that everything out there islike how do you conquer fear?
How do you get rid of fear?
How do you get rid of fear?
How do you delete fear?
It's always about trying toblow it up.
Life without this emotion.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
Well, I would have been on that bandwagon.
I know it's not the point ofwhat this journey is about.
I think if we can sit back andlook and see that this journey
is about growth and evolutionand that we cannot grow without
experiencing some of thesethings, because when we first
were learning to walk, that wasscary.
(28:46):
When we were first learning tostand up or when we were first
learning to ride our bike, allof it has those elements of fear
, but no one brings that logicalpoint to it as we're going
through it.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
Exactly, and I think this is why, when it comes to
when we do eventually want toexplore these things, then you
have people telling us that youcan just delete it.
We can never experience fearagain because, as you said, it's
it's the easier sell.
People, of course, are going tobuy into the idea of that, but
then you actually go throughlife and realize that all these
emotions are doing the journeywith you, regardless of how many
(29:18):
people told you that you couldget rid of it.
It's like every spiritual bookhas promised you spiritual
enlightenment and spiritualawakening I, I would, I would
agree with that.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
But, as you said, everything happens here as as
it's meant to be happening here,and I think that little
trickster of you can eliminateit, you can conquer it is one of
the reasons many of us stepinto it, because we think, oh, I
can conquer this and so I jumpinto it and then but the layers
of conditioning that that adds,it actually extends years of the
(29:49):
journey is what you and I oftencome back to going.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Oh only if I had a known but, that is the journey.
So I know we're, so to speak,arguing both sides of it and
there is no right or wrong inhow it unfolds, and I think
that's why, looking back andseeing the journey that any of
us go on, it's just, it'srefreshing to be able to talk it
out and I think that's whatgoes back to.
(30:14):
It's not talked out enough fromeveryone's experiences, and I
think it can be refreshing tounderstand that it's always
going to be from everyone'sexperiences, and I think it can
be refreshing to understand thatit's always going to be a part
of us, instead of having anexpectation or conditioning that
maybe someday I live without itcompletely.
I don't think that'snecessarily healthy longer term
either, but it doesn't mean ithas to control or dictate every
part of our lives in the ways itonce did right and I agree.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
And I would say to you, compared to the beginning
of my journey, my fears feel, alot of the time, almost
non-existent.
They show up in different waysand it's far more subtle and it
causes me to have moreself-reflection in order to
understand those fears, order tounderstand those fears, and so
(31:02):
that feels a whole lot gentlerto me today than what it was in
the beginning.
But I guess the point I wastrying to make is, if I had
believed I couldn't conquer themor eliminate them, I don't know
if I would have stepped in.
So that hearing those words inthe beginning is what caused me
to step in.
And now that I've been into it,I go.
And now that I've been into it,I go.
Oh, it's just really showing mehow much there's one more step
(31:22):
up I can make.
I'm just continually steppingup in my own life.
It's not stepping up accordingto society, it's not stepping up
in comparison to anyone else.
It's about stepping up in myown life and who I am as a
person and what I'm meant to bedoing here on the planet.
Does that make sense?
(31:49):
Where I think if we could bringit back to that it's our inner
journey and stop looking atwhat's happening out there and
who and what everybody else isdoing and how they're walking
through their fears.
That's going to change theconversation completely within
ourself, yeah, and so once we'vedone that, it's about okay.
How do you yourself, throughyour journey, start to walk
(32:11):
through these different fearsthat are showing up in your life
?
Speaker 2 (32:14):
So I think that actually brings up some
interesting conversations thatwe need to have in this episode
about how do we begin to build arelationship with these fears
that we all have, because we'vetalked about how it can teach a
lot about ourselves.
It's a huge component of growth.
It's not going anywhere, butthen it doesn't stop us from
obviously experiencing thatintensity that we can have, that
(32:37):
life can present to any of usany given day.
So what are some of thepractical strategies that we can
lean into when it comes tofacing warfare?
Speaker 1 (32:47):
I know, for me, the very first thing that I did was
having that acronym falseevidence appearing real.
That really helped me a lot.
Like there are a few acronymsout there, but that one helped
me the most because I was like,okay, it's not real, it's not
really as bad as what I amimagining and what I'm
foreseeing in my mind.
(33:08):
And so if I can just graduallystart to have a relationship
with that and start to exposemyself little bits by little
bits and see that I'm going tobe okay and then also starting
to really recognize some of thetechniques that we've talked
about many times on this show,the self-soothing techniques,
the journaling techniques, thegrounding Grounding is really
(33:33):
great.
And then, of course, for menotice how I always preface that
for me, that's the whole reasonpresent moment awareness became
so important Because my mindwould jump ahead with the fear
so much and it would almostliterally paralyze me.
(33:53):
So one of the reasons thatpractice became so important was
because, the more I came backto this moment and would go look
, nothing bad is happening inthis moment.
I am okay.
I'm actually okay in thismoment.
I am not going to die, I justneed to slow my heart rate down.
I need to be here and see thatI'm safe.
Then I would take another stepforward, and of course, I didn't
(34:17):
do that on my own in thebeginning.
Like we have said so many timesin the past, if this is
something that is really big inyour life, you do want to get
some help with it from a trustedsource.
That's where I would start.
What about you?
Speaker 2 (34:34):
Because naturally, when we're experiencing fear a
lot of us, our minds can worryquite a bit also, and I remember
reading somewhere that worryingis worshipping the problem.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
Oh, that's a good little phrase.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
Being exposed to my fears head on, taking
responsibility for them, sayingthat they're mine, wanting to go
talk to the person that I trustabout them taking these small
steps.
It's that for every time I didthat, I felt I trust about them.
Taking these small steps isthat for every time I did that,
I felt I was getting strongerand stronger.
And yes, that was opening upnew fears, because, especially
when you push past or you evolvewith the old fears that you
(35:09):
maybe have carried for decades,then you're exposed to new
experiences in life, which comesnew fears that you didn't know
you had.
For every time time you keeppushing that, you do feel
stronger and more confidentwithin yourself that you can
actually do this life, so tospeak.
You're able to back yourself ina whole new way of mind, body,
emotions and the strength thatcan come from within.
(35:29):
About that it's a very hardthing to describe and I know you
and I both have experiencedthat I'm sure hopefully a lot of
listeners have too throughoutmany different areas of life.
But that system, or thatfeeling the fear, taking
responsibility for it, gotalking it out, then putting a
plan in place, that systemhasn't changed regardless of
when I experienced fearthroughout my life.
(35:51):
As I said, it's not thatsuddenly you don't feel any fear
and you're just running throughlife.
That's an unrealisticexpectation that we don't want
to set here on this podcast, butfinding a system that works for
you for any time fear istriggered in order to help you
understand where the growth isin it.
For you, present day, that'sgold within itself, and that
(36:12):
formula can be different foreach person, but it's your
responsibility to understand,okay, what is that for you and
to keep moving forward with itonce you find it.
Speaker 1 (36:23):
What's in it for you, but being able to recognize
that, once you've gotten what'sin it for you, that's the gift,
the wisdom, and that wisdom initself is what causes the
confidence to start to grow.
And so, instead of running awaybecause we're so afraid of it,
(36:45):
when we can go, okay, if I canturn this around and find out
what's on the other side of itfor me, and if I can take that
wisdom and integrate it into mylife, then the world starts to
open up in a lot of differentways that we've never
experienced before, and so I'm aperfect example of that.
You know, I can remember when Istarted this journey, way back
(37:06):
when the first therapist that Isaw told me I was a hopeless
cause, and so it brings me greatjoy to sit here today and to be
able to talk to other peopleabout how to move through some
of this and be able to be thatliving example of if I can do it
, anybody can do it, and peoplewho meet me today do not believe
(37:27):
that I was riddled and I meanriddled with fear.
That so much.
So if you would say hello to me, I would turn purple and red
and shake and couldn't talk, andnow you can't shut me up.
It's also about celebratingthose small wins, every time you
overcome one.
Really, the way I put it tomyself and to a lot of people as
(37:52):
they're going through this is Isee it as my bank account.
Every time I have a win, Ideposit, but you have to get
enough deposits in there so thatif there's a withdrawal, you
can cover the withdrawal, andthat's how.
That is literally how I saw itin the beginning.
So every single time I'd rackup a win over one of my fears,
(38:13):
it just got stronger andstronger and stronger and I knew
I had what I needed to movethrough the next one.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
And I think in us having this conversation, kim
because we said we were nottrying to oversimplify it
continuing to set more realisticexpectations of what the
journey is, with any of theseemotions or experiences, in this
case of our fears, is that Idon't think for anyone at the
start was it ever easy.
It's not meant to be, and eventhe journey with it.
Of course there's ups and downs, but with that wisdom that you
(38:43):
were talking about and even thatstrength from within, it
continuously encourages us towant to lean into it.
But there are certain dayswhere, yeah, we're going to want
to bury our head in the sand,regardless of how long we're on
this journey.
But then you also realize thatthat's okay too and that is also
(39:05):
part of the experience.
But then there's alwaystomorrow, so, like it evolves
and it changes all of the time,and that's where having that
compassion for ourselves iscelebrating those small wins as
they happen.
As you said, it all adds up, butit is all part of the growth
journey.
But, as I said, I don't havemany experiences of it being, of
this kind of conversation we'rehaving, of being able to be
exposed to this kind ofinformation.
I know there's parts of me 20years ago that definitely would
(39:26):
have thought this no differentto you, and that's to be
expected and to be understoodand there's nothing wrong with
that.
But it can be refreshing, Iguess, after all these years,
for how you and I talk aboutfear in our own journeys now
because, by God, it has evolveda lot for us both.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
It definitely has, definitely has.
Thanks so much for listening.
If you enjoyed this episode,then you might want to check out
our online community.
We built it to offer you thecomfort of having a supportive
community by your side, nomatter where life takes you.
(40:01):
Connect with like-mindedindividuals through our app.
Navigate each step of thejourney together with us by
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You'll get exclusive real-timeaccess to live recording and
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(40:24):
I.
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Thanks again, and I hope youguys are having a lovely week.
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.