March 24, 2025 • 38 mins
In this episode of the Practical Spirituality Podcast, Gareth and Kim challenge the popular belief that love can solve all relationship problems. They discuss how, despite genuine affection, relationships can still reach a breaking point when underlying issues—like toxicity, poor communication, or conflicting values—go unaddressed.
Drawing on personal experiences, Gareth and Kim highlight how societal expectations often persuade people to endure unhealthy situations. The conversation takes a revealing turn when they examine how fear sometimes disguises itself as love, causing individuals to remain in damaging relationships out of concern for finances, loneliness, or the difficulty of starting over.
The hosts underscore the vital role of self-love in fostering healthy connections, providing oneself with enough self love to maintain protective boundaries and avoid accepting toxic behavior. This perspective shifts the notion of love from self-sacrifice to a balanced exchange that respects both partners.
Whether listeners are grappling with a current relationship or recovering from a past one, this episode provides compassionate advice, support and practical strategies for navigating the limits of love.
Become a Community Member at https://community.garethmichael.com/ to join our community and get early access to new episodes, answers to your personal questions and so much more.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Welcome back to the Practical Spirituality Podcast.
We are so excited to have youon this journey with us, where
we explore all elements of mind,body, emotions and soul through
the lens of everyday life.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Hello Kim.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Hello Gareth.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
How are you doing this morning?
Speaker 1 (00:33):
I am okay this morning.
You know me, I don't believe infibbing.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
I think our listeners are really starting to get to
know you too.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
I've just had a very busy week, so it's nothing more,
nothing less than that, just abusy week.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
So for this week's episode, I wanted to talk about
love, but like everything onthis podcast, it comes with a
twist.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
I know you're just going to shoot love right into
the ground, aren't you the twist, I know you're just going to
shoot love right into the ground, aren't you?
Speaker 2 (01:08):
To a point For this topic, the angle is going to be
when love isn't enough, and Ithink we would have talked about
this on certain episodes before, but not as its own topic like
this.
So when we go through life andfrom a very young age, we're
taught a lot about love frommovies, cartoons is talked about
a lot.
(01:28):
And we accept a lot of certainbehaviors from people because we
feel love is there or becausewe love them, so therefore it
justifies certain things.
Sometimes in life, as I'm surea lot of our listeners have
experienced, it can get to apoint where love isn't enough to
justify how someone or peopleare treating us in our
day-to-day life.
(01:49):
So that can be a very harshlesson.
So we're not necessarilyshooting down love.
Love is a beautiful thing.
Love can come in so manydifferent forms, in so many
different ways, but I thinksometimes we haven't been taught
that we can still love someoneand have to walk away sometimes.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Is that it's also what we've been taught love is,
and so our conception of lovesometimes is based in things
that isn't really loving, andsome people might not even know
that, and so get intorelationships.
We think we have a certainamount of love for somebody, and
(02:29):
then, as we start to grow, wemight see that what we thought
was love wasn't actually love aswell.
I think that's just animportant part of it.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Because I think even in a recent episode in this
season, we talked about beingyoung and naive and in love and
not knowing any better andthinking that love can cure
everything, and there iselements of that.
That, of course, can be true,but it's also that when you're
with someone for an extendedperiod of time, as an example,
(03:00):
it's that both individuals canchange and evolve so much in
their time together because, yes, they experience things
together but also separately,and we both know that not
everyone in this world has beenshown or taught how to walk
through their experiences, theirtrauma.
That have been really definingmoments for both individuals,
together and separately.
(03:20):
So, naturally, as bothindividuals evolve and change,
so too does, then, thedefinition of what love is, or
the person you fell in love with, or the idea of the person that
you fell in love with at thetime in this life that was going
to unfold over many decades tocome.
But sometimes that realitydoesn't come into fruition as we
(03:42):
once thought it, and I thinkthat's where even expectations,
conditioning, all of thesethings can play in for both
individuals and family members,et cetera, into our
understanding of love and how wefind ourselves in certain maybe
abusive behaviors at times, ormanipulation, and that's why
it's an interesting topic totalk about is okay.
(04:03):
When is love not enough in arelationship with family, with
friends, even if it's aninteresting topic to talk about,
is in okay.
When is love not enough in arelationship with family, with
friends, even if it's you loveyour career, you love your craft
?
Speaker 1 (04:10):
it can be covered and apply to so many things in our
life I agree completely withwhat you just said and the worst
part about it, and I think thereason that I struggled as soon
as you finished saying it isbecause I've had a lot of
experience myself with that in acouple different areas of my
life, and so one of the thingsthat I think people don't
(04:32):
understand is you can lovesomeone very much and you can be
in love with someone, and ifyou are not able to communicate
and you have unhealthy ways ofcommunicating or you're not
being honest in yourcommunications which is one of
my bugbears it can lead to somany unresolved
misunderstandings, leads tocodependency.
(04:53):
It can lead to a lot ofdifferent things.
For example, so many peoplecome together and they trauma
bond and they call that love.
It's crazy how we communicatewhat we're feeling and not like
we brought up in our otherepisodes about the maps of the
world.
If we're not clear on eachother's maps, it can lead to a
(05:14):
lot of misunderstanding andalong with that you might have
goals, but if your communicationis missing, then you're not
going to be communicating thosegoals and those dreams in the
same way that you would have ifyou were on the same page.
And so, having had thisexperience in my life, you know
(05:35):
that thinking and I was adiehard love is everything and
then starting to realize well,love, I think love is everything
.
It just doesn't mean it's whatkeeps a relationship together,
whether that be a workingrelationship, a friendship or a
romantic relationship, becausethere's.
Sometimes it's just not healthyand I know that sounds strange
(06:00):
to say that love is everythingand sometimes it's just not
healthy, but sometimes that isthe truth yeah, and sometimes we
can find ourselves saying it'slike I love you, I just don't
like you right now, which?
Speaker 2 (06:15):
can be true.
I think we've all foundourselves because you can't just
break the love away and just,you know, delete it.
But it's like I, you, but Ijust don't like you right now,
in this moment.
And that even can be effectivecommunication, if we find
ourselves even being able to saythat.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
Yeah, that's true, it's true.
And so how are people?
So, if we're going to talkabout this, how are we supposed
to resolve this idea that, eventhough love is everything,
sometimes love's not enough?
Speaker 2 (06:45):
See where I would think I would start with this,
and I know everyone's going tomost likely sigh and probably
predict.
What I'm going to say is that,as we often talk about on this
podcast, when exploring any ofthese topics, it always comes
back to self.
So, yes, when exploring any ofthese topics, it always comes
back to self.
So, yes, we have been taught orshown what love is by the
(07:07):
external world, by family, byfriends, by society, which is
all true and fair.
Okay, this doesn't mean it'sall right and it doesn't mean
it's all wrong either, but whenit comes back to learning how to
love self, that can reallyredefine what love means to the
external world, then, and how wenavigate it.
So a lot of this journey alwaysbrings us back to self, but in
(07:31):
the meantime it takes love,sometimes heart ache and
heartbreak, to actually bring usback to ourselves, to actually
start redefining what it means.
And that's not a journey youcan fake.
That's not a journey you canoften plan on a human level.
It's just something thatnaturally unfolds and, yeah, it
stings, it hurts when it happens, but it always has brought us
(07:52):
back to ourselves and even, asyou mentioned in previous
episodes about your marriage andwhen you divorced your partner,
it's that that was a wholejourney for kim and
understanding who she was and,and I think anyone who's went
through any kind of relationshipbreakup or divorce they can say
the same thing in the journeythat has brought them on of
understanding themselves better.
(08:13):
But it's a lifelong journey, Iwant to say, when it comes to
self love and learning what lovemeans internally to be able to
share it externally, and itcontinues to evolve and change,
to be able to share itexternally, and it continues to
evolve and change.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Like in learning to love myself, there were many
times when I could see some ofthe toxicity in the relationship
.
And you know, I think it'simportant to point out that you
can love somebody, but reallynot like the toxic behavior.
And then, as you're starting tolearn how to love yourself, you
recognize the fact that justbecause I love this person, I
don't have to put up with thetoxic behavior.
That is not really the idea ofgrowing and loving.
(08:55):
It's about, of course I'm onlygoing to work on me, and that's
one of the things that happenedin my marriage.
My ex was not interested inworking on themselves at that
point in their lives, forwhatever reason, and so you know
, of course I love him, but Icouldn't continue to live with
him or that toxic behavior orthe toxic pattern of loving each
(09:19):
other that we had gotten into,because I'm sure it didn't feel
good for anybody at thatparticular time.
And I think that's what weforget.
You know we get, especially ifwe're of that mindset, like I
was.
You know that love iseverything.
Then you think, well, I shouldbe able to work through this if
I love this person Instead ofrecognizing.
(09:42):
No, the true love is when I'mloving myself and I go.
It's not okay to treat me likethis.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
But I couldn't agree more because I even think, say
in some real life examples, asyou said, when people have those
toxic traits or patterns ordon't want to work on themselves
.
But then we also look into, say, when people have addictions
and the family loves them, thepartners love them, them, and
there's something else consumingthe person, and it's a really
(10:08):
you don't, you can't walk away,you don't want to walk away, you
love the person, you knowthey're struggling, but yet
being around those patterns andbehaviors, it's toxic to be
around because they're they'renot themselves, so to speak.
In those moments and I thinkthat's a very practical battle
that a lot of people findthemselves in throughout life of
I love them, I don't like whothey become in these scenarios,
(10:30):
but I also don't want to walkaway because I love them.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Yes, and that becomes very difficult and having
worked with drug and alcohol fora long time, I would say real
love would be walking away atthat moment because that's the
only way that person is going tobe able to reach the point they
need to.
But it's so counterintuitive toeverything that we feel in our
body makes it so difficult forthe person.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
But I think in you saying that's probably going to
surprise or shock a lot ofpeople in some ways because, as
you said, it's socounterintuitive to what's going
on within us.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
a lot of people in some ways, because, as you said,
it's so counterintuitive towhat's going on within us.
It is so, you know, and I don'tmind sharing like when I was 17
and my father said to me youknow, you have a problem, you
need to either get help or getout.
And I was like, okay, I'm goingto get out, because I didn't
really believe.
I had a problem at the time andyou know, I hated and resented
that man for many years for that, because it created a lot more
(11:27):
struggle in my life and he gaveme a choice.
But I hated him for giving me achoice.
I mean, it was really anultimatum.
Anyway, I hated him for manyyears for that.
But then, once I finally gotclean and started working on
myself, it was like holy cow,that was pretty much a big act
(11:49):
of love.
Then I had children and I waslike, oh my, that's real love,
you know, and working withalcoholics and addicts and I
used to have to say this tofamily members, and it is
counterintuitive.
But I can guarantee you Iwouldn't be sitting here today
if he hadn't given me thatultimatum, and that's what I
know to be true, and so it's aninteresting thing.
(12:11):
So is that love?
Is that not love.
In my version I say that wasreal love.
He loved me enough to go.
This behavior isn't okay.
And you need help.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
But a young Kim.
Her version of love, her map ofthe world of love was
completely different at thattime.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Yes, completely different, but those are some of
the hard case scenarios thatthey're.
You know, in working on myselfand looking back at it many
times I think, gosh, that wouldhave been hard for a parent.
Gosh, talk about unconditionallove.
That doesn't sound likeunconditional love.
You either get help or get out.
(12:51):
But it was unconditional love.
It was saying I know you havemore in there and I'm not going
to sit here and watch you killyourself.
So I think that's what peopledon't understand when we say
love is everything, because loveis that hard aspect of it at
times.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Yeah, because I think sometimes the approach can be
love is accepting any behaviorand allowing anyone to do
anything because you love them.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
And it's a very one-dimensional view on love.
It's part of that, but that'snot the whole answer, and that's
why I think it's important forus to talk about this, just to
open people's perspective onwhat is love to them and in what
ways throughout their life haslove put them in tricky
positions where they've had tohave certain conversations, make
(13:41):
certain decisions or even givethose ultimatums that your
father had to give you at thatstage, because it's only through
experiencing that on both sidesthat I think we can actually
see how complex love is.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
And I think some of the stuff that we see on TV
really does an injustice,because, you know, we get so
conditioned that people can workthings out in 15 or 20 minutes
instead of recognizing thatthere can be some really
complicated issues when it comesto this.
Yep, and it's not just as easy.
As you know, I'm in love withthis person, so therefore you
(14:19):
know like you can love someonevery much and neither person's
needs are getting met in thatrelationship because your maps
of the world are different, oryou're at different stages of
your growth, or you've learnedwhat you've meant to learn with
that person and another step oflove is stepping away, and
(14:39):
that's just very hard.
You have to be prettyemotionally mature to really get
that, I think.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Which I think 99% of us on the planet are not.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
Well, I didn't insult you guys, he did.
I said us.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
I included us, not 99%.
You see what I did there whenyou listen back to this episode,
you can see I said us.
I included us in that 99%.
You see what I did there whenyou listen back to this episode.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
You can see, I said us.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
But I think what's also interesting about this kind
of love and I would love tohear your perspective on this,
kim is that I think when we fallin love with someone, so to
speak, and we build a life withsomeone or individuals, is that,
without realizing it, and if wedon't have that emotional
maturity that you talked about,or we don't have that support
(15:30):
actually questioned to dive intothese things, we can sometimes,
I think, confuse love with fear, and what I mean by that is
that I love you, but what I'mreally feeling is that I'm so
fearful to leave because I don'tknow what life's going to be if
I actually leave thisrelationship, this marriage,
this safety net, this comfortzone.
So I love the predictability ofthis, so I love you, but really
(15:54):
it's like the fear so strongthat it's easy to stay in the
love that.
I know that may not be healthyor what I want, but that can be.
Yeah, I love you because therecan be a lot of per se loveless
marriages, if you want to putthat there, or relationships or
family dynamics, but really, ifyou were to dive in there,
there's a lot of fear morepresent than there is the love
(16:15):
emotion quote unquote, so tospeak now.
I know there's some grandiosestatements, but you know what
I'm trying to get out here.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
Well, I haven't got a clue.
Of course I know what you'retalking about.
I love how you always pickthese topics.
It just kind of like who needsto write a book.
Just come listen to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
You'll hear all about my life a book.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Just come listen to the podcast.
You'll hear all about my life.
No, but I think that is a very,very true statement and, as
I've said in the past and I'llrepeat again now I used to,
before I was married would sayif certain things happened in a
marriage, that's it, I'd be outof there and those things would
happen to me and I wasn't out ofthere.
There and those things wouldhappen to me and I wasn't out of
(17:01):
there.
And then, when I absolutelyknew like I can remember the
point where I knew I loved myhusband but I knew I didn't want
to live with him anymore, Ididn't think that the marriage
was going to work.
I was absolutely scared, like Ihad been a stay at home mom
pretty much most of that time.
I hadn't been in the workforcefor quite a while.
It was, you know.
I mean I had been in theworkforce, but in small
(17:22):
increments, and you know I hadthree kids that I was putting
through school and there was alot of factors in that, not just
mine, you know, because I knowthat when I finally got to the
point where I thought I wasready, then he wasn't ready at
that point and so then he had togo through his process of
getting ready, and so what itdid for me is it made me realize
(17:45):
it's never as cut and dry as welike to think.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Never.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Never, ever.
And you know there's a lot offactors that bring it into.
Some of those things that playinto that, you know, like our
financial struggles or theexpectations of different
families, the different familycultures that happen.
And then crisis.
You know the family can have acrisis.
(18:11):
One person's working their waythrough it and the other person
might be stuck and that createsthat whole situation where I can
speak honestly for myself.
There was a lot of fear andthere was fear of providing for
myself.
There was fear of what wouldhappen for my kids.
For a lot of people that fearis too strong to overcome.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Let's take a step back from this week's episode
and share with everyone whatwe've been up to behind the
scenes.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
We're really excited to be able to finally offer the
Gareth Michael community to eachof you.
The community offers a range ofbenefits, including access to
our live events, weekly podcastepisodes, articles,
self-checking questions, as wellas a community of individuals
you can connect with andinteract with along the way.
It's designed to offer yousupport, guidance and a safe
(19:03):
space on a day-to-day basis.
We'd love to have you join ourglobal community of like-minded
individuals.
That website address, again, iswwwgarethmichaelcom.
Now let's get back to thatepisode, shall we?
Speaker 2 (19:22):
But I think that's exactly why it's a good
conversation for us to have,because it's real life, because
I do think sometimes in a lot ofmaterial that we listen to or
read out there, it's anoversimplification of a very
complex reality and I thinkthat's why it is so confusing to
navigate internally and mindbody emotions from past, present
, as you said family, friends,colleagues, culture, society,
(19:47):
religion, this just there's somuch and we've all been brought
up really not understandingourselves or how to actually be
confident or to love ourselvesenough to do what we know we
need to do.
But even when we know that, itdoesn't mean that's actually
enough to get us to do that forourselves.
So much you have to take intoaccount, and I think we can find
(20:08):
ourselves saying, oh, when thechildren are 18, then I'll do it
, or when the children are 16,then I'll do it, or when this
happens, then I'll do it.
And that's understandable,because I think we've all done
that in our own ways throughoutlife.
But we keep changing thegoalposts on ourselves because
the emotions are so strong andthere is that hope at times
within us that this will just goaway or it'll get easier if we
(20:32):
ignore it long enough.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
And sometimes there's the battle of whatever the
religious culture you've beenraised in and what the
expectations of that culture is,and if you have been raised
from a small child, for example,I was raised Irish Catholic.
Now, I was not a practicingCatholic at the point my
marriage hit the point that itdid, but what happened is, you
(20:56):
know, there's that barrier.
Wait a minute.
I took vows.
I said that I was going to lovethis person till death.
Do us part, and blah, blah,blah.
And I will say that I have somesincere interest in finding out
from people, because I've oftenspoken to people of an older
generation who have stayedtogether, who have gone through
(21:16):
some of those hard times, havenot really liked each other, not
really been in love with eachother, but stayed, worked
through so many things and thenthat caused their bond to grow
deeper.
And so I often, especially whenI was going through this
thought is that what I'm meantto do?
And the very first time Ithought I needed to leave, I
(21:38):
stayed.
For that reason I thought I'vewhat I'm meant to do, and the
very first time I thought Ineeded to leave, I stayed.
for that reason I thought I'vegot to work through this with
somebody, but it became the morethat I worked on me, it became
more increasingly clear thatwasn't the case, but I think
it's an interesting dynamicbecause we are torn by so many
different factors.
Because we are torn by so manydifferent factors, we might put
(21:58):
the label love on it, but thereare a lot deeper things going on
underneath that word than justlove.
So I think one of the thingsyou know, following on from that
, we need to talk about is howdo we sort through that mess
that we had labeled love thatstarts to look that loving mess.
(22:19):
That loving mess, that westarted out with one belief
system and then now we'restarting to see things
differently, because it doesn'talways mean ending the
relationship.
True, we all have thesedifferent journeys for different
reasons, but I think sometimesit's about recognizing that as
(22:41):
we're growing, as we're startingto mature, we need to put
certain boundaries in place andwhether that person can respect
the boundaries and settinglimits on how far and what love
really does mean to you.
So, for example, I know that Iwas a people pleaser and I also
(23:02):
know that the type of love I hadwas what we would call
codependent, which meant if youshowed me you were okay, then I
was okay and then I wanted.
It was like a barter system.
Is what codependency is I'll dothis for you, but you got to do
this for me, instead of doingit because you want to do that.
And so having boundaries andunderstanding that aspect of our
(23:25):
life becomes very importantwhen it comes to how we actually
enter this relationship,whether that be at work, whether
that be with friends, becauseit's you know, just because
we've been friends since we werekids doesn't mean we're meant
to stay friends sometimes, andthat's a hard thing for people
(23:45):
to face.
I think that's the key thing Iwould say is, when you're
starting this journey, look atthose boundaries, look at how
you feel respected or you don'tfeel respected in the
relationship and what needs toshift inside of you.
For that because it's not aboutlooking at what needs to shift
(24:05):
inside the other person I thinkthat's often part of the journey
that was trying to changesomeone else first before going
I love you, but I need to changeeverything about you.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
Yeah, if you could just do this different, that
would be great.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Which we've all done that to, and I'm owning it.
I'm not saying that we'reinnocent of that.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
We've learned our lessons on that front.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
But we have these sayings out there that love
conquers everything, right?
Or if you really loved me, youwould know what I need triggered
I shouldn't have to tell youshe should just be able to read
my mind, before you mentionedanother one, you should say
trigger warning you know, it'sall of those conditions that we
(24:55):
put on, which are, you know,unhealthy.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Yeah, but I think it's that when we don't know any
better and we've lived with itfor so long, or we saw our
parents, aunts and uncles, orit's just, we normalize what
we've been exposed to becauseit's like this is what love is.
So when you haven't experiencedit being any other way and it's
(25:21):
like, oh, they must love mebecause they haven't left me yet
, or they put up with my x, yand z.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
It must be love, right?
Okay, I get it.
I've been that one each totheir own.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
I'm not saying it's not love yeah but this is why it
is a very individual thing toexplore.
But in exploring that, as yousaid and as we talked about
earlier, it always brings youback to self.
And having that emotionalintelligence and understanding
what we're calling love, is ourfear present?
(25:55):
Is there other other emotionspresent?
What is that triggering in usfrom our past?
And so there's so much work todo within ourselves, without
ever having to make any big lifedecisions right away or
immediately, because, you said,it's not always about ending a
relationship, ending a marriage.
That's not always the resultthat's needed present day.
It's always an option.
(26:16):
From the moment you're married.
You could leave the next day ifyou wanted.
It's always been on the table.
But I think it's that it'sunderstanding that that for
anyone that's been in thatposition or is in that position,
there's something insidechanges that suddenly says I
need to explore this, and Ithink that's where self-love is
reborn in a completely differentway.
(26:38):
And the reason why it happensin that moment that you can't
force, you can't control or youcan't even predict, is because
you needed to do that journeywith the love you understood up
until that date in time, becauseif it wasn't any other way and
using you know yourself, kim, asan example you wouldn't have
had the three wonderful kidsthat you have and you wouldn't
(26:59):
have had the experiences thatyou had.
So we're saying it's not allnegative, because it's not
certain things were meant tofold exactly as they were, but,
as you do that, so many thingsthroughout life continue to be
redefined that allow you toexplore longer term exactly when
it's meant to unfold.
So love is just a part of that,and I think in part of that,
(27:20):
maturing is understanding that Ican love myself and I can love
you as an individual and,however, I am not putting up
this behavior anymore that'sabusive to both of us yes, very
much so, and and the same goesfor it's not quite as heavy,
part of it is.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
but our values change and so we might find, as we're
working on ourselves and we'redoing this inward reflection,
that all of a sudden what usedto be really important to me has
now shifted.
And I think the biggest joke Ilike to say about my marriage is
on the day I was gettingmarried we had a conflict about
(28:01):
my spiritual journey, and atthat time I was still somewhat a
practicing Catholic, okay, andmy ex was a self-proclaimed
atheist.
So that was an interestingthing to start the marriage with
.
I don't practice any organizedreligion and he's very much into
organized religion and I'msaying that with jest because I
(28:32):
don't have any resentment to it.
I did it first for a while.
Our values change as we growand as we're doing this journey
inward, we start to see thingsdifferently for ourselves and we
can't have the expectation thatthe person we love is going to
share those same values.
You know they may or they maynot, but that is part of this
(28:54):
process.
That happens.
You know.
It almost makes people thinkmaybe I shouldn't go on the
spiritual journey.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
It's part of the process too.
It's just part of the process.
This wasn't the journey I wassold on when I started, but it's
the one I'm having.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Yeah, but attached to that as well is as you're
growing and learning aboutloving yourself, which I prefer.
I do still think love iseverything, but how I operate in
that love is everything isdifferent, because now it's
about loving me, and that isn'tthat arrogant, self-centered or
(29:31):
whatever way people think whenthey hear I'm loving me.
But I have finally learned howto have a relationship with
myself, and in that not onlyhave my values changed, but my
level of emotional intelligencehas changed, and so I'm viewing
the world in a completelydifferent way, with a completely
(29:53):
new map.
And if my partner which wastrue at the time wasn't on that
same sort of journey at thattime in his life, that doesn't
mean that it's a bad thing.
It just means it wasn't workingfor us.
It is now a running joke in ourfamily that my ex goes to
church every Sunday.
We all think it's a big jokeand I mean I'm happy for him
(30:16):
that he found that.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Yep, if it works for him, that's great.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Yeah, it just was funny how those ships crossed
and never really kind of hit atthe same time is the point that
I'm trying to make.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
As you were saying.
It just goes to show how muchpeople change and evolve
throughout their life to findthe ways that work for them.
So that's where it'sfascinating.
I think, a curveball I want tothrow at you.
What would you say to peoplewho are potentially, as in this
example, in a relationship?
They love the person, butthey're waiting for the person
(30:51):
to change.
And the person is saying theywill, they promise they'll get
to it, but days, weeks, months,maybe even years go by.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
Well, this is.
You know, I'm going to be veryhonest with you.
This is where I really startedto put into practice the whole
concept of spiritual contracts,because I was that person
waiting for that other person tochange.
And I think, when it comes tothe point that you have changed
(31:21):
so much, even if the otherperson has decided they want to
change or are going to change,the distance between each other
may be too great by that time.
And that's what you really haveto look at.
You have to look at how distantdo I feel?
Yeah, I think it's.
You have to go through thatstage, but you have to have the
(31:46):
emotional intelligence enough togo.
Is this really going to happen,or am I just kidding myself?
Like you said before?
Am I sitting in the fear?
These are all the things that Iran through.
Am I just staying because Idon't think I can make it out
there?
I used the whole thing of I'mstaying because I wanted the
stability for my children.
(32:06):
You know, I didn't even thinkthe kids were going to be
necessarily better off, but Iknew I didn't want to do the
financial rocky show that wasgoing to happen.
I had a whole list ofrationalized ideas as to why I
couldn't leave.
Whether they were all valid ornot doesn't matter.
I wasn't meant to leave at thatpoint.
But I can say this when you dolove yourself enough, you will
(32:30):
know the moment will come andyou'll go.
It's like a little light switchgets turned on inside of you
and you go.
Okay, that's it.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
And for me there was no anger, there was no screaming
, there was no yelling, therewas just like yep, it's time and
there's such strength thatcomes with that in that moment
that, as we've been talkingabout in this episode, you
cannot fake there's no falsestart.
It's that when that happens, youjust know, and I think
sometimes in the spiritualcontract say, if the partner is
(33:00):
not willing to make an effort,is not able to make an effort in
communication and wanting towork on themselves, I think,
sometimes over an extendedperiod of time, that's the
energy's way of telling you thatyour journey with one another,
as you would have said in yourown ways before, is coming to a
close in this form, because weboth know that, even for, say,
when you have kids with thisindividual, it's that you're
(33:21):
always going to be part of eachother's life.
You know, in moving forward,especially when you share a
family and, however, I, inmoving forward, especially when
you share a family in, however,I think the energy has
interesting ways, the universehas interesting ways in showing
us that, yes, that was the casefor a period of time in your
life, but now we're going tomake it that you can't
communicate, that you aren'tallowed to work on the things
(33:41):
for one another, you can't hearone another, because it forces
each individual back intothemselves, for to start a new
chapter in their own individualjourneys.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
That is exactly what happened.
You're saying that and I'msitting here smiling because I'm
like, yeah, I could remember atone point, towards the very end
, thinking how is it that I canhave lived with someone for over
20 years and not find a singlething to be able to speak to
them about?
I just found that fascinating,but we just couldn't communicate
(34:15):
.
At the end, full stop.
And that's what you're justsaying.
And as you're saying it, I'mremembering searching to find
something to talk to this personabout and not being able to.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
And I think that's the interesting way of our own
individual journeys and energiesthey take it away piece by
piece and give it back toourselves to find ourselves, how
to communicate with ourselves,how to love ourselves.
And I think it's only when yougo through it, or in the process
of it, and even years after thefact sometimes, that you
actually see why it unfoldedexactly the way it did and, as
(34:50):
you would say, and as youmentioned earlier even in this
episode, it has worked out foryou, it has worked out for your
ex-husband, you know, everyoneis exactly where they're meant
to be.
So, even though there was mostdefinitely I have no doubt very
difficult and hard moments foryou both on for the family, the
perfect result did come out ofit in the end for everyone
involved.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Absolutely.
But, as most people know, whenyou're going through it, you
don't believe that's what, whatis happening, and so that is why
I think if you are working onyourself and this type of thing
is unfolding in your life,that's where you have to seek
the additional supportAbsolutely.
I could not have gone throughit in the manner that I went
through it without some of thereally healthy support I did
have, because I had an intention, when I knew I'd gotten to the
(35:38):
point where the marriagecouldn't continue, that I wanted
to walk away, in kindness andin decency and doing my best to
respect.
Of course I was hurt, of courseI was angry, and that was all
(35:58):
part of it as well, but I wantedto walk away so that I didn't
fall into the trap of thinking Ihated this person.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
I think I learned, as you said earlier, love is
everything, and there's parts ofthat statement that I do truly
believe in.
I think love is very importantin this life, but what this
journey has taught me thus faris that I have to love myself 51
of the time and and everyoneelse can have the other 49, but
that one percent is thedifference, sometimes, of being
in a abusive relationship or not, or not seeing things or the
(36:26):
patterns or behaviors you needto see, or having blind spots.
It's that 51% of the time.
I need to make sure thatself-love is deeply present
within myself, that I have thatstrength that we talked about
earlier to challenge certainbehaviors when necessary, to go
out and be my own person.
And, yes, I will happily sharethat other 49% with the rest of
the world, because I do thinklove is very important when it
(36:48):
comes to any of our healingjourney and how we engage with
one another.
But I think to see it at itsfull capacity for what it can be
, we always have to startinwards and then once again work
our way outwards.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
I couldn't have said it better.
That's a very true statement.
Thanks so much for listening.
If you enjoyed this episode,then you might want to check out
our online community.
We built it to offer you thecomfort of having a supportive
community by your side, nomatter where life takes you.
Connect with like-mindedindividuals through our app.
(37:23):
Navigate each step of thejourney together with us by
joining our Gareth Michaelcommunity.
Here are a few of the thingsyou're going to get.
You'll get exclusive real-timeaccess to live recording and
events.
Advanced access to each newepisode.
The opportunity to askquestions directly of Gareth and
I.
(37:43):
Input into what topics we coverin the show.
Access to exclusive content notavailable anywhere else.
To learn more about ourcommunity, please go to
wwwgarethmichaelcom.
Thanks again, and I hope youguys are having a lovely week.
Welcome back to the Practical Spirituality Podcast.
We are so excited to have youon this journey with us, where
we explore all elements of mind,body, emotions and soul through
the lens of everyday life.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Hello Kim.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Hello Gareth.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
How are you doing this morning?
Speaker 1 (00:33):
I am okay this morning.
You know me, I don't believe infibbing.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
I think our listeners are really starting to get to
know you too.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
I've just had a very busy week, so it's nothing more,
nothing less than that, just abusy week.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
So for this week's episode, I wanted to talk about
love, but like everything onthis podcast, it comes with a
twist.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
I know you're just going to shoot love right into
the ground, aren't you the twist, I know you're just going to
shoot love right into the ground, aren't you?
Speaker 2 (01:08):
To a point For this topic, the angle is going to be
when love isn't enough, and Ithink we would have talked about
this on certain episodes before, but not as its own topic like
this.
So when we go through life andfrom a very young age, we're
taught a lot about love frommovies, cartoons is talked about
a lot.
(01:28):
And we accept a lot of certainbehaviors from people because we
feel love is there or becausewe love them, so therefore it
justifies certain things.
Sometimes in life, as I'm surea lot of our listeners have
experienced, it can get to apoint where love isn't enough to
justify how someone or peopleare treating us in our
day-to-day life.
(01:49):
So that can be a very harshlesson.
So we're not necessarilyshooting down love.
Love is a beautiful thing.
Love can come in so manydifferent forms, in so many
different ways, but I thinksometimes we haven't been taught
that we can still love someoneand have to walk away sometimes.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Is that it's also what we've been taught love is,
and so our conception of lovesometimes is based in things
that isn't really loving, andsome people might not even know
that, and so get intorelationships.
We think we have a certainamount of love for somebody, and
(02:29):
then, as we start to grow, wemight see that what we thought
was love wasn't actually love aswell.
I think that's just animportant part of it.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Because I think even in a recent episode in this
season, we talked about beingyoung and naive and in love and
not knowing any better andthinking that love can cure
everything, and there iselements of that.
That, of course, can be true,but it's also that when you're
with someone for an extendedperiod of time, as an example,
(03:00):
it's that both individuals canchange and evolve so much in
their time together because, yes, they experience things
together but also separately,and we both know that not
everyone in this world has beenshown or taught how to walk
through their experiences, theirtrauma.
That have been really definingmoments for both individuals,
together and separately.
(03:20):
So, naturally, as bothindividuals evolve and change,
so too does, then, thedefinition of what love is, or
the person you fell in love with, or the idea of the person that
you fell in love with at thetime in this life that was going
to unfold over many decades tocome.
But sometimes that realitydoesn't come into fruition as we
(03:42):
once thought it, and I thinkthat's where even expectations,
conditioning, all of thesethings can play in for both
individuals and family members,et cetera, into our
understanding of love and how wefind ourselves in certain maybe
abusive behaviors at times, ormanipulation, and that's why
it's an interesting topic totalk about is okay.
(04:03):
When is love not enough in arelationship with family, with
friends, even if it's aninteresting topic to talk about,
is in okay.
When is love not enough in arelationship with family, with
friends, even if it's you loveyour career, you love your craft
?
Speaker 1 (04:10):
it can be covered and apply to so many things in our
life I agree completely withwhat you just said and the worst
part about it, and I think thereason that I struggled as soon
as you finished saying it isbecause I've had a lot of
experience myself with that in acouple different areas of my
life, and so one of the thingsthat I think people don't
(04:32):
understand is you can lovesomeone very much and you can be
in love with someone, and ifyou are not able to communicate
and you have unhealthy ways ofcommunicating or you're not
being honest in yourcommunications which is one of
my bugbears it can lead to somany unresolved
misunderstandings, leads tocodependency.
(04:53):
It can lead to a lot ofdifferent things.
For example, so many peoplecome together and they trauma
bond and they call that love.
It's crazy how we communicatewhat we're feeling and not like
we brought up in our otherepisodes about the maps of the
world.
If we're not clear on eachother's maps, it can lead to a
(05:14):
lot of misunderstanding andalong with that you might have
goals, but if your communicationis missing, then you're not
going to be communicating thosegoals and those dreams in the
same way that you would have ifyou were on the same page.
And so, having had thisexperience in my life, you know
(05:35):
that thinking and I was adiehard love is everything and
then starting to realize well,love, I think love is everything
.
It just doesn't mean it's whatkeeps a relationship together,
whether that be a workingrelationship, a friendship or a
romantic relationship, becausethere's.
Sometimes it's just not healthyand I know that sounds strange
(06:00):
to say that love is everythingand sometimes it's just not
healthy, but sometimes that isthe truth yeah, and sometimes we
can find ourselves saying it'slike I love you, I just don't
like you right now, which?
Speaker 2 (06:15):
can be true.
I think we've all foundourselves because you can't just
break the love away and just,you know, delete it.
But it's like I, you, but Ijust don't like you right now,
in this moment.
And that even can be effectivecommunication, if we find
ourselves even being able to saythat.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
Yeah, that's true, it's true.
And so how are people?
So, if we're going to talkabout this, how are we supposed
to resolve this idea that, eventhough love is everything,
sometimes love's not enough?
Speaker 2 (06:45):
See where I would think I would start with this,
and I know everyone's going tomost likely sigh and probably
predict.
What I'm going to say is that,as we often talk about on this
podcast, when exploring any ofthese topics, it always comes
back to self.
So, yes, when exploring any ofthese topics, it always comes
back to self.
So, yes, we have been taught orshown what love is by the
(07:07):
external world, by family, byfriends, by society, which is
all true and fair.
Okay, this doesn't mean it'sall right and it doesn't mean
it's all wrong either, but whenit comes back to learning how to
love self, that can reallyredefine what love means to the
external world, then, and how wenavigate it.
So a lot of this journey alwaysbrings us back to self, but in
(07:31):
the meantime it takes love,sometimes heart ache and
heartbreak, to actually bring usback to ourselves, to actually
start redefining what it means.
And that's not a journey youcan fake.
That's not a journey you canoften plan on a human level.
It's just something thatnaturally unfolds and, yeah, it
stings, it hurts when it happens, but it always has brought us
(07:52):
back to ourselves and even, asyou mentioned in previous
episodes about your marriage andwhen you divorced your partner,
it's that that was a wholejourney for kim and
understanding who she was and,and I think anyone who's went
through any kind of relationshipbreakup or divorce they can say
the same thing in the journeythat has brought them on of
understanding themselves better.
(08:13):
But it's a lifelong journey, Iwant to say, when it comes to
self love and learning what lovemeans internally to be able to
share it externally, and itcontinues to evolve and change,
to be able to share itexternally, and it continues to
evolve and change.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Like in learning to love myself, there were many
times when I could see some ofthe toxicity in the relationship
.
And you know, I think it'simportant to point out that you
can love somebody, but reallynot like the toxic behavior.
And then, as you're starting tolearn how to love yourself, you
recognize the fact that justbecause I love this person, I
don't have to put up with thetoxic behavior.
That is not really the idea ofgrowing and loving.
(08:55):
It's about, of course I'm onlygoing to work on me, and that's
one of the things that happenedin my marriage.
My ex was not interested inworking on themselves at that
point in their lives, forwhatever reason, and so you know
, of course I love him, but Icouldn't continue to live with
him or that toxic behavior orthe toxic pattern of loving each
(09:19):
other that we had gotten into,because I'm sure it didn't feel
good for anybody at thatparticular time.
And I think that's what weforget.
You know we get, especially ifwe're of that mindset, like I
was.
You know that love iseverything.
Then you think, well, I shouldbe able to work through this if
I love this person Instead ofrecognizing.
(09:42):
No, the true love is when I'mloving myself and I go.
It's not okay to treat me likethis.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
But I couldn't agree more because I even think, say
in some real life examples, asyou said, when people have those
toxic traits or patterns ordon't want to work on themselves
.
But then we also look into, say, when people have addictions
and the family loves them, thepartners love them, them, and
there's something else consumingthe person, and it's a really
(10:08):
you don't, you can't walk away,you don't want to walk away, you
love the person, you knowthey're struggling, but yet
being around those patterns andbehaviors, it's toxic to be
around because they're they'renot themselves, so to speak.
In those moments and I thinkthat's a very practical battle
that a lot of people findthemselves in throughout life of
I love them, I don't like whothey become in these scenarios,
(10:30):
but I also don't want to walkaway because I love them.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Yes, and that becomes very difficult and having
worked with drug and alcohol fora long time, I would say real
love would be walking away atthat moment because that's the
only way that person is going tobe able to reach the point they
need to.
But it's so counterintuitive toeverything that we feel in our
body makes it so difficult forthe person.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
But I think in you saying that's probably going to
surprise or shock a lot ofpeople in some ways because, as
you said, it's socounterintuitive to what's going
on within us.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
a lot of people in some ways, because, as you said,
it's so counterintuitive towhat's going on within us.
It is so, you know, and I don'tmind sharing like when I was 17
and my father said to me youknow, you have a problem, you
need to either get help or getout.
And I was like, okay, I'm goingto get out, because I didn't
really believe.
I had a problem at the time andyou know, I hated and resented
that man for many years for that, because it created a lot more
(11:27):
struggle in my life and he gaveme a choice.
But I hated him for giving me achoice.
I mean, it was really anultimatum.
Anyway, I hated him for manyyears for that.
But then, once I finally gotclean and started working on
myself, it was like holy cow,that was pretty much a big act
(11:49):
of love.
Then I had children and I waslike, oh my, that's real love,
you know, and working withalcoholics and addicts and I
used to have to say this tofamily members, and it is
counterintuitive.
But I can guarantee you Iwouldn't be sitting here today
if he hadn't given me thatultimatum, and that's what I
know to be true, and so it's aninteresting thing.
(12:11):
So is that love?
Is that not love.
In my version I say that wasreal love.
He loved me enough to go.
This behavior isn't okay.
And you need help.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
But a young Kim.
Her version of love, her map ofthe world of love was
completely different at thattime.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Yes, completely different, but those are some of
the hard case scenarios thatthey're.
You know, in working on myselfand looking back at it many
times I think, gosh, that wouldhave been hard for a parent.
Gosh, talk about unconditionallove.
That doesn't sound likeunconditional love.
You either get help or get out.
(12:51):
But it was unconditional love.
It was saying I know you havemore in there and I'm not going
to sit here and watch you killyourself.
So I think that's what peopledon't understand when we say
love is everything, because loveis that hard aspect of it at
times.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Yeah, because I think sometimes the approach can be
love is accepting any behaviorand allowing anyone to do
anything because you love them.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
And it's a very one-dimensional view on love.
It's part of that, but that'snot the whole answer, and that's
why I think it's important forus to talk about this, just to
open people's perspective onwhat is love to them and in what
ways throughout their life haslove put them in tricky
positions where they've had tohave certain conversations, make
(13:41):
certain decisions or even givethose ultimatums that your
father had to give you at thatstage, because it's only through
experiencing that on both sidesthat I think we can actually
see how complex love is.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
And I think some of the stuff that we see on TV
really does an injustice,because, you know, we get so
conditioned that people can workthings out in 15 or 20 minutes
instead of recognizing thatthere can be some really
complicated issues when it comesto this.
Yep, and it's not just as easy.
As you know, I'm in love withthis person, so therefore you
(14:19):
know like you can love someonevery much and neither person's
needs are getting met in thatrelationship because your maps
of the world are different, oryou're at different stages of
your growth, or you've learnedwhat you've meant to learn with
that person and another step oflove is stepping away, and
(14:39):
that's just very hard.
You have to be prettyemotionally mature to really get
that, I think.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Which I think 99% of us on the planet are not.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
Well, I didn't insult you guys, he did.
I said us.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
I included us, not 99%.
You see what I did there whenyou listen back to this episode,
you can see I said us.
I included us in that 99%.
You see what I did there whenyou listen back to this episode.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
You can see, I said us.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
But I think what's also interesting about this kind
of love and I would love tohear your perspective on this,
kim is that I think when we fallin love with someone, so to
speak, and we build a life withsomeone or individuals, is that,
without realizing it, and if wedon't have that emotional
maturity that you talked about,or we don't have that support
(15:30):
actually questioned to dive intothese things, we can sometimes,
I think, confuse love with fear, and what I mean by that is
that I love you, but what I'mreally feeling is that I'm so
fearful to leave because I don'tknow what life's going to be if
I actually leave thisrelationship, this marriage,
this safety net, this comfortzone.
So I love the predictability ofthis, so I love you, but really
(15:54):
it's like the fear so strongthat it's easy to stay in the
love that.
I know that may not be healthyor what I want, but that can be.
Yeah, I love you because therecan be a lot of per se loveless
marriages, if you want to putthat there, or relationships or
family dynamics, but really, ifyou were to dive in there,
there's a lot of fear morepresent than there is the love
(16:15):
emotion quote unquote, so tospeak now.
I know there's some grandiosestatements, but you know what
I'm trying to get out here.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
Well, I haven't got a clue.
Of course I know what you'retalking about.
I love how you always pickthese topics.
It just kind of like who needsto write a book.
Just come listen to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
You'll hear all about my life a book.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Just come listen to the podcast.
You'll hear all about my life.
No, but I think that is a very,very true statement and, as
I've said in the past and I'llrepeat again now I used to,
before I was married would sayif certain things happened in a
marriage, that's it, I'd be outof there and those things would
happen to me and I wasn't out ofthere.
There and those things wouldhappen to me and I wasn't out of
(17:01):
there.
And then, when I absolutelyknew like I can remember the
point where I knew I loved myhusband but I knew I didn't want
to live with him anymore, Ididn't think that the marriage
was going to work.
I was absolutely scared, like Ihad been a stay at home mom
pretty much most of that time.
I hadn't been in the workforcefor quite a while.
It was, you know.
I mean I had been in theworkforce, but in small
(17:22):
increments, and you know I hadthree kids that I was putting
through school and there was alot of factors in that, not just
mine, you know, because I knowthat when I finally got to the
point where I thought I wasready, then he wasn't ready at
that point and so then he had togo through his process of
getting ready, and so what itdid for me is it made me realize
(17:45):
it's never as cut and dry as welike to think.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Never.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Never, ever.
And you know there's a lot offactors that bring it into.
Some of those things that playinto that, you know, like our
financial struggles or theexpectations of different
families, the different familycultures that happen.
And then crisis.
You know the family can have acrisis.
(18:11):
One person's working their waythrough it and the other person
might be stuck and that createsthat whole situation where I can
speak honestly for myself.
There was a lot of fear andthere was fear of providing for
myself.
There was fear of what wouldhappen for my kids.
For a lot of people that fearis too strong to overcome.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Let's take a step back from this week's episode
and share with everyone whatwe've been up to behind the
scenes.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
We're really excited to be able to finally offer the
Gareth Michael community to eachof you.
The community offers a range ofbenefits, including access to
our live events, weekly podcastepisodes, articles,
self-checking questions, as wellas a community of individuals
you can connect with andinteract with along the way.
It's designed to offer yousupport, guidance and a safe
(19:03):
space on a day-to-day basis.
We'd love to have you join ourglobal community of like-minded
individuals.
That website address, again, iswwwgarethmichaelcom.
Now let's get back to thatepisode, shall we?
Speaker 2 (19:22):
But I think that's exactly why it's a good
conversation for us to have,because it's real life, because
I do think sometimes in a lot ofmaterial that we listen to or
read out there, it's anoversimplification of a very
complex reality and I thinkthat's why it is so confusing to
navigate internally and mindbody emotions from past, present
, as you said family, friends,colleagues, culture, society,
(19:47):
religion, this just there's somuch and we've all been brought
up really not understandingourselves or how to actually be
confident or to love ourselvesenough to do what we know we
need to do.
But even when we know that, itdoesn't mean that's actually
enough to get us to do that forourselves.
So much you have to take intoaccount, and I think we can find
(20:08):
ourselves saying, oh, when thechildren are 18, then I'll do it
, or when the children are 16,then I'll do it, or when this
happens, then I'll do it.
And that's understandable,because I think we've all done
that in our own ways throughoutlife.
But we keep changing thegoalposts on ourselves because
the emotions are so strong andthere is that hope at times
within us that this will just goaway or it'll get easier if we
(20:32):
ignore it long enough.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
And sometimes there's the battle of whatever the
religious culture you've beenraised in and what the
expectations of that culture is,and if you have been raised
from a small child, for example,I was raised Irish Catholic.
Now, I was not a practicingCatholic at the point my
marriage hit the point that itdid, but what happened is, you
(20:56):
know, there's that barrier.
Wait a minute.
I took vows.
I said that I was going to lovethis person till death.
Do us part, and blah, blah,blah.
And I will say that I have somesincere interest in finding out
from people, because I've oftenspoken to people of an older
generation who have stayedtogether, who have gone through
(21:16):
some of those hard times, havenot really liked each other, not
really been in love with eachother, but stayed, worked
through so many things and thenthat caused their bond to grow
deeper.
And so I often, especially whenI was going through this
thought is that what I'm meantto do?
And the very first time Ithought I needed to leave, I
(21:38):
stayed.
For that reason I thought I'vewhat I'm meant to do, and the
very first time I thought Ineeded to leave, I stayed.
for that reason I thought I'vegot to work through this with
somebody, but it became the morethat I worked on me, it became
more increasingly clear thatwasn't the case, but I think
it's an interesting dynamicbecause we are torn by so many
different factors.
Because we are torn by so manydifferent factors, we might put
(21:58):
the label love on it, but thereare a lot deeper things going on
underneath that word than justlove.
So I think one of the thingsyou know, following on from that
, we need to talk about is howdo we sort through that mess
that we had labeled love thatstarts to look that loving mess.
(22:19):
That loving mess, that westarted out with one belief
system and then now we'restarting to see things
differently, because it doesn'talways mean ending the
relationship.
True, we all have thesedifferent journeys for different
reasons, but I think sometimesit's about recognizing that as
(22:41):
we're growing, as we're startingto mature, we need to put
certain boundaries in place andwhether that person can respect
the boundaries and settinglimits on how far and what love
really does mean to you.
So, for example, I know that Iwas a people pleaser and I also
(23:02):
know that the type of love I hadwas what we would call
codependent, which meant if youshowed me you were okay, then I
was okay and then I wanted.
It was like a barter system.
Is what codependency is I'll dothis for you, but you got to do
this for me, instead of doingit because you want to do that.
And so having boundaries andunderstanding that aspect of our
(23:25):
life becomes very importantwhen it comes to how we actually
enter this relationship,whether that be at work, whether
that be with friends, becauseit's you know, just because
we've been friends since we werekids doesn't mean we're meant
to stay friends sometimes, andthat's a hard thing for people
(23:45):
to face.
I think that's the key thing Iwould say is, when you're
starting this journey, look atthose boundaries, look at how
you feel respected or you don'tfeel respected in the
relationship and what needs toshift inside of you.
For that because it's not aboutlooking at what needs to shift
(24:05):
inside the other person I thinkthat's often part of the journey
that was trying to changesomeone else first before going
I love you, but I need to changeeverything about you.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
Yeah, if you could just do this different, that
would be great.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Which we've all done that to, and I'm owning it.
I'm not saying that we'reinnocent of that.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
We've learned our lessons on that front.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
But we have these sayings out there that love
conquers everything, right?
Or if you really loved me, youwould know what I need triggered
I shouldn't have to tell youshe should just be able to read
my mind, before you mentionedanother one, you should say
trigger warning you know, it'sall of those conditions that we
(24:55):
put on, which are, you know,unhealthy.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Yeah, but I think it's that when we don't know any
better and we've lived with itfor so long, or we saw our
parents, aunts and uncles, orit's just, we normalize what
we've been exposed to becauseit's like this is what love is.
So when you haven't experiencedit being any other way and it's
(25:21):
like, oh, they must love mebecause they haven't left me yet
, or they put up with my x, yand z.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
It must be love, right?
Okay, I get it.
I've been that one each totheir own.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
I'm not saying it's not love yeah but this is why it
is a very individual thing toexplore.
But in exploring that, as yousaid and as we talked about
earlier, it always brings youback to self.
And having that emotionalintelligence and understanding
what we're calling love, is ourfear present?
(25:55):
Is there other other emotionspresent?
What is that triggering in usfrom our past?
And so there's so much work todo within ourselves, without
ever having to make any big lifedecisions right away or
immediately, because, you said,it's not always about ending a
relationship, ending a marriage.
That's not always the resultthat's needed present day.
It's always an option.
(26:16):
From the moment you're married.
You could leave the next day ifyou wanted.
It's always been on the table.
But I think it's that it'sunderstanding that that for
anyone that's been in thatposition or is in that position,
there's something insidechanges that suddenly says I
need to explore this, and Ithink that's where self-love is
reborn in a completely differentway.
(26:38):
And the reason why it happensin that moment that you can't
force, you can't control or youcan't even predict, is because
you needed to do that journeywith the love you understood up
until that date in time, becauseif it wasn't any other way and
using you know yourself, kim, asan example you wouldn't have
had the three wonderful kidsthat you have and you wouldn't
(26:59):
have had the experiences thatyou had.
So we're saying it's not allnegative, because it's not
certain things were meant tofold exactly as they were, but,
as you do that, so many thingsthroughout life continue to be
redefined that allow you toexplore longer term exactly when
it's meant to unfold.
So love is just a part of that,and I think in part of that,
(27:20):
maturing is understanding that Ican love myself and I can love
you as an individual and,however, I am not putting up
this behavior anymore that'sabusive to both of us yes, very
much so, and and the same goesfor it's not quite as heavy,
part of it is.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
but our values change and so we might find, as we're
working on ourselves and we'redoing this inward reflection,
that all of a sudden what usedto be really important to me has
now shifted.
And I think the biggest joke Ilike to say about my marriage is
on the day I was gettingmarried we had a conflict about
(28:01):
my spiritual journey, and atthat time I was still somewhat a
practicing Catholic, okay, andmy ex was a self-proclaimed
atheist.
So that was an interestingthing to start the marriage with
.
I don't practice any organizedreligion and he's very much into
organized religion and I'msaying that with jest because I
(28:32):
don't have any resentment to it.
I did it first for a while.
Our values change as we growand as we're doing this journey
inward, we start to see thingsdifferently for ourselves and we
can't have the expectation thatthe person we love is going to
share those same values.
You know they may or they maynot, but that is part of this
(28:54):
process.
That happens.
You know.
It almost makes people thinkmaybe I shouldn't go on the
spiritual journey.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
It's part of the process too.
It's just part of the process.
This wasn't the journey I wassold on when I started, but it's
the one I'm having.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Yeah, but attached to that as well is as you're
growing and learning aboutloving yourself, which I prefer.
I do still think love iseverything, but how I operate in
that love is everything isdifferent, because now it's
about loving me, and that isn'tthat arrogant, self-centered or
(29:31):
whatever way people think whenthey hear I'm loving me.
But I have finally learned howto have a relationship with
myself, and in that not onlyhave my values changed, but my
level of emotional intelligencehas changed, and so I'm viewing
the world in a completelydifferent way, with a completely
(29:53):
new map.
And if my partner which wastrue at the time wasn't on that
same sort of journey at thattime in his life, that doesn't
mean that it's a bad thing.
It just means it wasn't workingfor us.
It is now a running joke in ourfamily that my ex goes to
church every Sunday.
We all think it's a big jokeand I mean I'm happy for him
(30:16):
that he found that.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Yep, if it works for him, that's great.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Yeah, it just was funny how those ships crossed
and never really kind of hit atthe same time is the point that
I'm trying to make.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
As you were saying.
It just goes to show how muchpeople change and evolve
throughout their life to findthe ways that work for them.
So that's where it'sfascinating.
I think, a curveball I want tothrow at you.
What would you say to peoplewho are potentially, as in this
example, in a relationship?
They love the person, butthey're waiting for the person
(30:51):
to change.
And the person is saying theywill, they promise they'll get
to it, but days, weeks, months,maybe even years go by.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
Well, this is.
You know, I'm going to be veryhonest with you.
This is where I really startedto put into practice the whole
concept of spiritual contracts,because I was that person
waiting for that other person tochange.
And I think, when it comes tothe point that you have changed
(31:21):
so much, even if the otherperson has decided they want to
change or are going to change,the distance between each other
may be too great by that time.
And that's what you really haveto look at.
You have to look at how distantdo I feel?
Yeah, I think it's.
You have to go through thatstage, but you have to have the
(31:46):
emotional intelligence enough togo.
Is this really going to happen,or am I just kidding myself?
Like you said before?
Am I sitting in the fear?
These are all the things that Iran through.
Am I just staying because Idon't think I can make it out
there?
I used the whole thing of I'mstaying because I wanted the
stability for my children.
(32:06):
You know, I didn't even thinkthe kids were going to be
necessarily better off, but Iknew I didn't want to do the
financial rocky show that wasgoing to happen.
I had a whole list ofrationalized ideas as to why I
couldn't leave.
Whether they were all valid ornot doesn't matter.
I wasn't meant to leave at thatpoint.
But I can say this when you dolove yourself enough, you will
(32:30):
know the moment will come andyou'll go.
It's like a little light switchgets turned on inside of you
and you go.
Okay, that's it.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
And for me there was no anger, there was no screaming
, there was no yelling, therewas just like yep, it's time and
there's such strength thatcomes with that in that moment
that, as we've been talkingabout in this episode, you
cannot fake there's no falsestart.
It's that when that happens, youjust know, and I think
sometimes in the spiritualcontract say, if the partner is
(33:00):
not willing to make an effort,is not able to make an effort in
communication and wanting towork on themselves, I think,
sometimes over an extendedperiod of time, that's the
energy's way of telling you thatyour journey with one another,
as you would have said in yourown ways before, is coming to a
close in this form, because weboth know that, even for, say,
when you have kids with thisindividual, it's that you're
(33:21):
always going to be part of eachother's life.
You know, in moving forward,especially when you share a
family and, however, I, inmoving forward, especially when
you share a family in, however,I think the energy has
interesting ways, the universehas interesting ways in showing
us that, yes, that was the casefor a period of time in your
life, but now we're going tomake it that you can't
communicate, that you aren'tallowed to work on the things
(33:41):
for one another, you can't hearone another, because it forces
each individual back intothemselves, for to start a new
chapter in their own individualjourneys.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
That is exactly what happened.
You're saying that and I'msitting here smiling because I'm
like, yeah, I could remember atone point, towards the very end
, thinking how is it that I canhave lived with someone for over
20 years and not find a singlething to be able to speak to
them about?
I just found that fascinating,but we just couldn't communicate
(34:15):
.
At the end, full stop.
And that's what you're justsaying.
And as you're saying it, I'mremembering searching to find
something to talk to this personabout and not being able to.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
And I think that's the interesting way of our own
individual journeys and energiesthey take it away piece by
piece and give it back toourselves to find ourselves, how
to communicate with ourselves,how to love ourselves.
And I think it's only when yougo through it, or in the process
of it, and even years after thefact sometimes, that you
actually see why it unfoldedexactly the way it did and, as
(34:50):
you would say, and as youmentioned earlier even in this
episode, it has worked out foryou, it has worked out for your
ex-husband, you know, everyoneis exactly where they're meant
to be.
So, even though there was mostdefinitely I have no doubt very
difficult and hard moments foryou both on for the family, the
perfect result did come out ofit in the end for everyone
involved.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Absolutely.
But, as most people know, whenyou're going through it, you
don't believe that's what, whatis happening, and so that is why
I think if you are working onyourself and this type of thing
is unfolding in your life,that's where you have to seek
the additional supportAbsolutely.
I could not have gone throughit in the manner that I went
through it without some of thereally healthy support I did
have, because I had an intention, when I knew I'd gotten to the
(35:38):
point where the marriagecouldn't continue, that I wanted
to walk away, in kindness andin decency and doing my best to
respect.
Of course I was hurt, of courseI was angry, and that was all
(35:58):
part of it as well, but I wantedto walk away so that I didn't
fall into the trap of thinking Ihated this person.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
I think I learned, as you said earlier, love is
everything, and there's parts ofthat statement that I do truly
believe in.
I think love is very importantin this life, but what this
journey has taught me thus faris that I have to love myself 51
of the time and and everyoneelse can have the other 49, but
that one percent is thedifference, sometimes, of being
in a abusive relationship or not, or not seeing things or the
(36:26):
patterns or behaviors you needto see, or having blind spots.
It's that 51% of the time.
I need to make sure thatself-love is deeply present
within myself, that I have thatstrength that we talked about
earlier to challenge certainbehaviors when necessary, to go
out and be my own person.
And, yes, I will happily sharethat other 49% with the rest of
the world, because I do thinklove is very important when it
(36:48):
comes to any of our healingjourney and how we engage with
one another.
But I think to see it at itsfull capacity for what it can be
, we always have to startinwards and then once again work
our way outwards.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
I couldn't have said it better.
That's a very true statement.
Thanks so much for listening.
If you enjoyed this episode,then you might want to check out
our online community.
We built it to offer you thecomfort of having a supportive
community by your side, nomatter where life takes you.
Connect with like-mindedindividuals through our app.
(37:23):
Navigate each step of thejourney together with us by
joining our Gareth Michaelcommunity.
Here are a few of the thingsyou're going to get.
You'll get exclusive real-timeaccess to live recording and
events.
Advanced access to each newepisode.
The opportunity to askquestions directly of Gareth and
I.
(37:43):
Input into what topics we coverin the show.
Access to exclusive content notavailable anywhere else.
To learn more about ourcommunity, please go to
wwwgarethmichaelcom.
Thanks again, and I hope youguys are having a lovely week.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.