December 17, 2025 • 42 mins
Misha Rubin is an executive “What’s Next” strategist who helps C-level leaders and high-achievers break income ceilings, land strategic leadership roles, and navigate bold career pivots while regaining meaning and momentum. Grounded in 15+ years as a Wall Street advisor and former EY Partner, he’s led $100M+ transformations and coached hundreds of executives to breakthroughs in compensation, clarity, and career strategy. His work is results-focused, built around executive positioning and decision-making, and supported by a proprietary tool that brings vision, clarity, and next-step confidence.
A Few Quotes From This Episode
- “We are CEOs of our careers and our lives, and somehow we tolerate not having a strategy for them.”
- “The slow lane is gone. If you are in a slow lane, that’s not a great place to be nowadays.”
- “You have to be nimble and bold to meet the needs of the future.”
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
- Book: Loving What Is by Byron Katie
- The Future of Jobs Report 2025 by the World Economic Forum
About The International Leadership Association (ILA)
- The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals interested in studying, practicing, and teaching leadership.
About Scott J. Allen
- Website
- Weekly Newsletter: Practical Wisdom for Leaders
My Approach to Hosting
- The views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are views to consider, and I hope they help you clarify your perspective.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Scott Allen (03:19):
Okay, everybody, welcome to Practical Wisdom for
Leaders.
Thank you so much for checkingin wherever you are in the
world.
Today, I have Misha Rubin, andhe is an executive What's Next
strategist.
So I'm excited to explore that.
He is a former partner at EY.
Lots going on in hisbackground.
You can check out his bio inthe show notes for the full bio.
(03:43):
But Misha, uh, before we jumpin, what do listeners need to
know about you?
I know you're sitting in NewYork right now, which is an
awesome place.
I just told you I was therelast week, which I love, love,
love the city.
My daughters, they they arelooking forward to next spring.
We are gonna spend probablythree days in the city and see
shows.
But um, what do people need toknow about you?
Misha Rubin (04:06):
Listen, I I was a partner at Ernsting Young.
I spent about 15 years umworking with executives from all
key top Wall Street firms.
So I've seen a lot of corporateworld and how it functions and
how it doesn't, and I've seen uhhow to navigate this world for
(04:27):
myself.
I also, you know, hired people,promoted people, uh increased
their compensation.
So I was on all the differentparts of equations and seen ins
and outs of how corporate worldworks.
And I've always thought thatleaders, and I know leadership
is one of the key topics andcontext for our conversation,
(04:49):
that leaders in organizationshave a lot of responsibilities.
They have to deliver, they haveto take care of their people,
they have to uh be on the top ofthe knowledge and the latest
informations or regulations ortechnologies.
There's a lot of expectationsof leaders.
And very often, leadersthemselves are not being taken
(05:10):
care of for their careers, fortheir own decision making, for
them to figure out what's nextfor them.
Are they in the right spot?
Are they growing into the rightdirection?
So that's the expertise that Iwould love to bring to your
listeners.
Yes.
Okay, well, I'm so excited tohave this conversation.
We have not had an episode andspecifically on you know what's
(05:33):
next for executives, who'shelping them think through?
Who are their thinkingpartners?
And so at least I'm kind ofthinking of you as like a
thinking partner, a coach whocan help people really better
understand what they even needto be considering when it comes
to this space.
So, what are you seeing outthere?
How are how are you kind ofmaking sense of this space right
(05:55):
now?
What do you see the needs as?
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Well, one of the things that I see that the world
is changing.
And um, and I don't thinkthat's being fully appreciated
because uh in some aspects ofour economy, um, the change
might come slower.
You know, artificialintelligence is definitely
making big steps.
I don't think people realizehow big the change is going to
(06:21):
be, and how how actually all ourday-to-day and businesses and
how corporations work and howcareers are designed, that's all
is in the process of beingcompletely revamped.
So we're living in these veryexciting times.
It could be also a little bitscary.
I would say that in the past,your a status quo career was a
(06:46):
little bit like you know, a slowdeath, but that could actually
go on for a while.
I actually think that we'removing into the times when um
some of these slow-paced moving,not being proactive, the price
will come much faster.
So that's why it's you know, Idon't want to be alarmist, but
at the same time, I want peoplelike, hey, you gotta think about
(07:08):
what's next, how you'renavigating your career, how
you're managing it, how you'repreparing yourself for what's
next, so you are not leftbehind.
Scott Allen (07:19):
Well, I think it's so incredibly important.
I mean, just even in the couplerecent conversations I was in,
Misha, I mean, one was listeningto a podcast with a CMO, and
you know, he said, Yeah, we'reshort about 10 people, but we've
got AI.
And that was just a veryinteresting statement.
And then there was another uhconversation I was in recently,
(07:43):
and the individual said, youknow, we're basically paying
about two staff members in AIsubscriptions right now, but but
it's completely worth it.
And so just even statementslike this that just those two
little kind of wow, that'sinteresting.
I hadn't I I think I think youare exactly correct.
(08:03):
Uh change is afoot and are werelevant?
Are we on the cutting edge?
And are we thinking aboutwhat's next?
Are we thinking about andstrategizing otherwise, you
know, on the cutting edge or thechopping block, so to speak?
Totally.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Um, I would say you need to master five things in
order to prepare yourself forthis career.
I don't even want to say it'sof the future, I'm just I would
say career for the modernexecutive, you know.
Right now it's happening, andum five things doesn't mean you
(08:43):
need to master them all at once.
You can choose one at a time interms of based on your
circumstances.
But I think to build uh anamazing career in the time to
come, you do need to master allfive.
Number one is you gotta be amaster strategist.
And if you think about any uhcompany, you know, if if a CEO
(09:07):
didn't have a uh strategy forthe company, the board would
fire them.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
So we are CEOs of our careers and of our lives, and
somehow we are tolerating nothaving a strategy for our
career.
And strategy means, you know,having a vision, understanding
where you want to end up,understanding where the
opportunities are,understanding, like even in the
industry where you're in, whereit's heading, you know, do you
think there is a future there,or is there something else you
(09:33):
want to do?
So there's strategy that wouldencompass a lot of things,
including your inneraspirations, what type of
lifestyle you want to lead, forinstance, in the next 10 years.
And it should include themarket conditions and the
current world that we're livingin.
And that's all part of thestrategy.
So without having that, it'sactually very hard to make any
(09:53):
decent decisions for anything, Iwould say, in life, but
especially in career, and one ofthe big mistakes that people
have been making over decades ismaking a lot of circumstantial
career decisions.
And one of the reasons when youmake circumstantial decisions,
when you don't have a goodstrategy and vision of where
you're heading.
So that's number one.
Scott Allen (10:12):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Number two, you gotta be a pro fast tracker.
And here's what I mean.
So, what I mean, but whenyou're ending up in an
organization, any organization,you gotta know how to navigate
organization, how to buildrelationships, how to create
your personal brand withinorganization, how to identify
(10:36):
nonlinear opportunities.
I'll give you an example, aclient of mine, um, this is AI
story a little bit, because hecame to me and he was stuck and
a little depressed.
And he's like managing directorin a bank, so just doing really
well, but kind of really nothappy where he was.
And, you know, we were lookingat outside opportunity, inside
(10:56):
opportunity.
But part of it, you gotta bekeen on and be able to realize
that opportunities that are infront of you.
So why and where there areopportunities?
Either you need to get closerto where business making money,
that's where opportunities are,or you need to get closer,
another dimension would bestrategic initiatives.
That's where organizationsinvest money and resources.
(11:19):
So at that time, he wasn't anAI expert, but he was known for
the person that if you give himsomething new, he'll figure out
how to do it better than mostother people.
Nice.
And that time AI became athing, and he suddenly became AI
lead, a partner with technologyfor the whole big financial
(11:41):
department.
Yep, and that createdcompletely different
opportunities for him.
Now, that's what I mean by fasttracking, because the slow lane
is gone.
If you are in a slow lane, or Icall it railroad promotion
track, where you're waiting foryour boss to get fired or retire
or move on, that's a slowtrack, that's not a great place
(12:03):
to be nowadays.
Yep.
Okay, so that's the second one,right?
Yes, the third one, you gottabecome an expert reinventor.
Okay.
What I mean that given how fasteverything is moving, including
the technology and includingthe uh environment, you gotta
(12:24):
know how to reinvent yourself.
Meaning that you have certainskills, you have certain
experiences, you have certainabilities, capacities,
aspirations.
You should be able to repackagethem and close the gap and move
into different roles, differentindustries.
And that's a very importantskill that nowadays will just
become more important becauseyou will see, we will see some
(12:46):
industries will collapse, wewill see that some roles will
disappear, and the people thathave capacity to take and
repackage themselves and move,put them in different positions
will be the one that succeeds.
100% and the okay, so thefourth one, you gotta be a
strategic opportunist.
Okay.
(13:07):
This is a very particular skillof being able to see the
opportunities and to see theright ones for you.
Scott Allen (13:16):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
And you kind of need everything, you need all the
pieces, you need to bestrategic, so you need to have a
strategy.
You might need to know how tofast track and identify
opportunities within yourorganization.
You might be able to reinvent,but it's almost like a whole
different lens of things interms of moving your career
forward.
And that's like if you'relooking, for instance, to make
(13:37):
more money, or if you'relooking, for instance, to have
much bigger impact, you gotta bestrategic opportunist.
So you identify theseopportunities that give you uh
uh possibility to do thesethings.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
And the last but not the least, this is, and I and
I'm still articulating the nameof it, but let's call it hmm
mindset slash your slash yourenergy energy field slash your
nervous system.
Okay, because it combines allthese kind of soft things that
people everybody talks about,but nobody knows how to put a
(14:10):
finger on.
Because if you think about yournervous system, is has a
capacity for you know forinteracting with an
organization, deal with unknown,deal with fear.
So it will be a limiting factorin your growth, and you and
your nervous system is liveswithin your energetic field, and
(14:33):
you can feel energy, like youcan think about asking boss to
give you a 50% raise, and youcan feel the energy or fear or
discomfort coming in.
So those are very real thingsthat you can feel, and they're
actually part of your broaderconsciousness that you operate.
So, and then inside of that,you will also see your mindset
(14:54):
and your belief system that alsolives there.
And if, for instance, you don'tsee what's possible for you,
right?
If you have a limitation onyour personal possibility, that
will have a limit.
If, for instance, you um have alow self-worth, so your own
evaluation of your worth andyour potential, that will put a
(15:17):
lid on your opportunities.
If you don't have enough agencyto advocate yourself and pursue
things that you don't, thatwill put a limitation of you.
So, this these all things livein a paradigm of your mindset,
your nervous system and energy,and you know, and an energetic
circle, but they all pretty muchwill create kind of a backdrop
(15:43):
of everything that will happento you.
And I would say, in terms ofthere are two key qualities that
will have you survive in anyeconomy and in any environment
nowadays, and those are beingnimble and bold.
So, in this new career paradigmthat we're entering, just being
(16:05):
competent is not enough becauseall the knowledge now, you
know, people used to get PhDsand you know, go study in law
school, and the knowledge usedto be very valuable, and it's
still valuable in certain areas.
But now the other thing we needto understand with AI, a lot of
knowledge is easily accessible,that it's available to you on
(16:26):
demand, even if you don't have abackground in it or you don't
know what it is.
So I think that's a veryprofound change when whatever it
is you know is becoming lessvaluable.
It's whatever you can create,whatever you can interpret,
whatever you can maybe even feelor sense, because there is a
limitation to AI systems.
They they operate in veryparticular paradigms and models,
(16:50):
and they have certainlimitations, how they think.
So that's where being nimbleand bold will serve you in terms
of finding opportunities andfigure out how to move forward.
Scott Allen (17:02):
Yeah, there's so much good here, so much good
here.
So I I I have like 17 thingsgoing through my head, and so I
I love love.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Good thing I have a nimble and bold mindset.
So I can I'm just I just okay,I gotta be nimble and bold to
prepare.
What's incoming?
Oh man.
Well, can I just repeat thefive things just so that they
kind of land with the listener?
Yeah.
So number one is your strategy,you know, that's so important.
And and I always think don'ttry to address all of them, just
(17:37):
pick one, you know.
So strategy would be all alwayslike most obvious for most
people.
Number two, becoming a masterfast tracker, knowing how to
navigate organizations, yeah.
Number three, being aprofessional reinventor, and
number four, being strategicopportunist, right?
Identifying opportunities andbeing able to pursue them.
(18:00):
And number five, this is yourkind of the soft part, your
mindset, your nervous system,your energy field, and how you
develop it to meet the needs ofthe future.
Now I'm ready for yourquestions.
Scott Allen (18:11):
Yeah.
Well, and then and then, ofcourse, you are nimble and bold.
I mean, you are well, I thinkfor some listeners right now, to
your point, you know, thiscould feel large, but I want to
tell a little bit of a story.
And I I think probably aboutthree years ago, I was a I was a
professor of management at auniversity.
(18:33):
It'd be like Fordham in yourneck in your neck of the woods,
a Jesuit institution.
And professor of management,and I just started paying
attention to my energy.
I was a little less excited togo to class.
I wasn't feeling as energetic,just naturally energetic about
the work.
I I was feeling a little bitbored.
I was getting a little moreeasily agitated by the normal
(18:57):
workings of organizational life.
I'd been there for at that timeprobably 15 years.
So the first step for me wasjust paying really close
attention to kind of thatenergy.
It was like, huh, hmm,interesting.
And then, you know, I tappedsome of my thinking partners.
I have a therapist, I have amentor, my wife, some other
(19:21):
individuals that I reallyrespect their opinions.
And I just started having someconversations.
And, you know, having a partnerlike you, having an individual
who can coach some of thoseconversations, who can help
someone gain clarity.
And I just spoke with a friendwho's maybe like three years
behind me, but is just kind ofstarting to feel some of those
(19:43):
inklings themselves.
And, you know, for me, that waskind of the first step of even
beginning to develop thatstrategy.
It was, okay, here's where Iam.
And then as I got more and moreclear, I could start to make
some decisions, like, oh, okay,let's let's financially ensure
that we're in the right space.
(20:04):
So we made some adjustments tofinances and just started slowly
moving some pieces into placeso that if there was a decision,
there were some barriers thatwere no longer as big a concern.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Right.
Scott Allen (20:18):
But this whole, you know, strategist, I I mean, I
love all of these because I maynot necessarily know where I
want to go, but having someonelike you and having an expert to
help guide some of thoseconversations, help connect some
dots, help me make sense of theopportunities, I think it's
(20:40):
invaluable because as you, Iknow a lot of people who they're
they feel stuck, they feel likethey're a prisoner, they don't
have options, and they uh maynot make the bold decision to
live into a better version ofthemselves or the next version
of themselves or the next kindof chapter of their career.
(21:02):
But strategist, pro-fasttracker, reinventor,
opportunist, strategicopportunist, and then you know,
your mindset, kind of thatoperating system, your energy.
It's hard to hide your energy.
It's hard to hide that, hard tofake that.
I just I absolutely love it.
(21:25):
I absolutely love it.
But for like where you started,kind of where am I headed?
What's north?
And I might not know that it'sexactly north, but I what's the
direction I'm moving in?
When you're when you're helpingsomeone like I was in that
state, kind of gain sense ofeven beginning to think about
strategy, talk about that.
(21:47):
I'm really, really interestedin kind of that phase.
I imagine you get some clientswhere they're like, I don't
know, I'm not sure.
I just kind of know that I'mnot feeling it's not, you know
what I mean?
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
First, I want to address whatyou started about to you,
because I think number one, yougotta be conscious of your
energetic field.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
Yes, right.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
That's what you said, and I think a lot of people,
and nowadays when I talk aboutenergetic field, I'm not talking
about some woo-woo things.
I'm telling you, you feel it,you feel when things are off,
you feel when you don't want togo to work, when you um don't
feel fulfilled.
You know, there's all thesevery clear, and then your energy
(22:30):
level goes down, and you outputand input.
Scott Allen (22:33):
In the literature, it's called emotional labor.
So this is an extreme example,but you might have a prostitute
or you might have a server in arestaurant, they have to pretend
that they're enjoying becauseauthentically, that's not really
where I am authentically.
So you have to quote unquoteact.
I I had to turn it on more,pretend the enthusiasm, the
(22:57):
excitement, the energy.
And I could feel that, and Iknew it wasn't authentic.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
And for some people, they've been leading for this
for so long that they stillabsorb it into their identity.
So I think if there is, and I'mthinking about people who are
listening to this right now,that number one thing tune into
your energy field and see whereyou are.
You excited about life?
Are you making the type ofdifference you want to be
(23:23):
making?
You know, are you are you proudof your life?
Do you feel fulfilled?
Those are great questions.
And I think sometimes we resignourselves that life just has to
be like in a very particularbox, and we uh stop dreaming.
So I think that's kind of to mea wake-up call to everybody who
is not feeling 100%, don'twait.
(23:46):
Because I all I know that ifyou wondering whether what's
figuring out what's next,whether it's the right time for
this right now, my answer isalways like you should have
started a year ago.
If you're wondering about this,then you should have so you're
always better off starting whenyou're in a great spot.
In fact, if you're doingamazingly well, this is your
(24:08):
perfect time to plot where youwant to head.
And then, of course, peoplehave circumstances and life
happens, and sometimes we haveto do it in not great
circumstances.
But if you have greatcircumstances, perfect timing.
Anyway, so your question wasabout how so how do you figure
out the strategy, right?
Yeah, and I would say there islike a bunch of ingredients.
(24:30):
I I think about it as like Idon't know, maybe a soup.
You know, I'm I love to cook,so I have a soup analogy.
So, but think about what wouldbe the ingredients of figuring
out your strategy.
So, number one would be I callit you plus 10.
So it would be Scott plus 10.
Envisioning life 10 years fromnow.
(24:52):
Yeah, let's let's look at ithappened, whatever it is you
want, it occurred.
Who is that person?
Like where they are, whatmotivates them, how did they
make it there?
That's an example of a NorthStar.
That and for some people itcould look like a very
particular goal, for some peopleit could be blurry, for some it
(25:13):
might take a while to getthere.
But engaging in this exerciseof looking at you plus 10 is an
amazing way to kind of look atthe direction of your life and
see where currently are takesyou there.
Or you and the other thingabout a great thing about what I
what I say creating a vision,because vision is not a goal.
(25:36):
I don't want to think, I don'twant to mix those two concepts
because what's great aboutvision, you can always adjust it
as you move closer to yourvision, might you might change
your mind, you might have moreor you might adjust it.
So to me, it's not like aone-time exercise, it's it's
it's a forever exercise whereyou always can recalibrate where
you're going and adjust yoursteps, right?
So that's one piece ofequation.
(25:58):
The second piece of equation, Iwould look at you and your
criteria.
And those criteria, I thinkabout an iceberg here, because
some of the criteria could belike, I want to make that much
money, I want to work in thattype of a company.
There are some things that liveon its surface and some things
that everybody talks about, butthen there are things that are
(26:18):
hidden from you.
So there are a lot ofsuccessful people that are
miserable, and how do I know?
You know, I was one of them,you know.
So just because you're meetingsome of the surface parts of the
iceberg doesn't mean thatyou're meeting your inner needs.
So there are things thatactually bring you meaning and
fulfillment, there are thingsthat bring you joy.
It's important to investigate.
(26:40):
There's a value system that youactually developed when you
were a child that is guidingyou, but because it's not
articulated for people and notum not articulated in language
and hidden from their view.
Very often people say, I knowwhat I don't want, but I don't
know what I want.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
And and um, so that could be like another set of
exercises, really understandwhat are my criteria for what's
next for me.
Yes, that's another piece.
Yes, the third thing, and oneof the and this goes back to my
theory that people don't regretdecisions, people regret how
they arrived to their decisions.
(27:21):
And one of the reasons peopleuh regret their decisions is
because they haven't consideredall of their options, and this
is very important exercise to dothis exploration and say, okay,
I know where I'm heading, Iknow that some of my criteria,
but there could be a lot ofactually different pathways
there and a lot of steps thatcould take me there.
(27:43):
Let's explore variety of them,let's explore actually really
deeply and widely.
And this is where a lot of fearkicks in.
Is that people think if theyput something on a sheet of
paper, they commit to doingsomething, but in reality, they
just really need to explore,right?
Yep, yeah.
Then another piece of strategycould be looking at external
(28:04):
world and seeing where do Ithink the opportunities are?
Where do I think the placewhere I am, your organization,
your role, your your function,your industry, where do you
think they're heading?
Is there an opportunity there?
Do we think is do you are youplanning to stay there for the
next decade?
Or this is a you justtransition to something else.
(28:26):
Those are very important.
You maybe want to look whereyou want to live geographically,
or you want to decide is it alarge company or a small
company?
So this is you gotta look atthis macro view, and then if you
start mixing all these thingstogether, that you will find
things that overlap.
You get the misha soup, it's amisha soup, and it's you then
(28:49):
condense it, and usually youwill get to like um, and I do
this what you know, I help myclients make all types of moves,
some of them are radical, yeah.
You know, and that's how wearrived to some of their ideas.
I'll I'll give you an example.
You know, a client of mine wasthis like a big top shot lawyer
on Wall Street, making a lot ofmoney, you know, had a big team,
(29:14):
was also a mom of three,working really hard, you know,
scrambling for time, alwaystrust.
You know, when she came to meand like we looked at, for
instance, what is her criteria,you know, in her heart, she was
a humanitarian.
Wow.
And what she really wanted todo is also have more time with
(29:34):
her kids, you know.
So we designed a leap for herwhere she would make less money
by design.
It wasn't a coincidence, but itwas a very conscious choice.
But she ended up being ageneral counsel in this very
innovative foundation.
In the future, what she saw forherself running her own
nonprofit.
So we aligned all thesedifferent pieces and explored
(29:57):
all these ideas to get to thethings that work for her life.
Scott Allen (30:01):
Yeah, but I love I love that use of the word
design, right?
There was there's forethought,there's like there's knowledge,
there's there's intentionalchoice when it comes to design,
and you're helping her designwhat that can look like.
I absolutely love the use ofthat word.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
But that's really in the source of the work.
That's where you can make veryconscious choices, very
thought-through choices.
The other thing what stopspeople a lot in living a great
life is the fear of makingchanges.
Very much normal for humans tobe afraid of what you don't
(30:44):
know.
So if you don't, if I tell youthat you got a change and you
don't know what it is, and youdon't know whether you qualify
it, whether you will make enoughmoney, whether you'll be able
to support your family, whetheryour future will be the way you
want it, the less the more youdon't know, the scary it is.
Once you start going throughthis design type of an exercise,
(31:05):
when you start putting thingson the paper and all the pieces
of the puzzle and looking atthem, then you get to a final
piece of the puzzles that areactually very realistic.
And you can evaluate theirrisk, your readiness for them,
the gaps that you have.
And what will happen that youwill still have fear, but it
will be a fraction of the fearwhen you deal with something
(31:29):
completely unknown versus a verypractical idea that you arrive
to that you investigating andseeing whether that's the right
leap.
And what that allows people tomake very well thought through
decisions.
And what is a good decision isthe one that stands the test of
time.
And as I said, people don'tregret decision.
(31:51):
You know, I'll give you anexample.
I just went to this conferenceand I stayed in a hotel.
And as soon as I arrived atthat hotel, I said, that's a
wrong hotel.
And I immediately went back.
It's like, how did I choosethat hotel?
You know, how did I make this?
That was my initial, because weall want to learn, right?
So we always go back to thedecision-making process.
(32:12):
And what we see in thedecision-making process in
relation to career, you haven'tconsidered all your options.
You were not clear about whereyou want to take your life.
You you had fear and a lot ofother things that, in a way, so
it's always goes back to thedecision-making process.
So that's where you want toimprove.
If you want to have a greatcareer and a great life, make
(32:33):
better decisions.
Scott Allen (32:35):
Well, and I I I mean, this is kind of where I
want to start beginning to winddown the conversation, but let's
talk a little bit about time.
I imagine you have some clientswho, upon some of the initial
inklings that they want to bemore intentional, they want to
be more strategic.
(32:55):
Um, they're a strategist, theyknow they need to do that,
whether they're going to stay inthe organization and plot their
course forward, um, or whetherthey know they want to maybe
make a transition like theexample you shared.
I imagine some clients of yoursare proactive about this
conversation and invest inconversations with you because
(33:16):
it's a type of an investment.
It really is.
Um, and I and then I imagineyou come across some clients
where they've been laid off andit's an emergency.
Yes.
Talk about those two scenarioswhere you have the individual
who is is a little bit moreplaying the chess match and and
looking forward, whether again,internal or making a jump, and
(33:40):
you have time to work with thatindividual to design this, and
that individual who's in thedifferent situation.
What talk about those twoscenarios?
Speaker 1 (33:50):
So that's why I will repeat what I said before
because this is exactly whatcomes to the point.
Plot plot your future whenyou're in a strong position.
Yes, you have many more optionsand you have many more
possibilities, and you can thinkmuch straighter.
Yes, listen, when people getlaid off and they're concerned
about feeding their families,then you know what?
(34:11):
Forget about the future.
Go figure out how you'll feedyour family and give yourself
room because sometimes we needto do what we need to do.
I think the my philosophy is umhow to connect both.
You know, the sky is where ourdreams live, is their highest
aspiration lives.
(34:31):
This is where our soul residesand joy and all these things.
And then, but then there isearth, right?
So just talking about the skything and dreaming and
fantasizing not going to bringus a great life.
We have to bring this on earth.
Now, on earth, that means youneed practical and pragmatic.
(34:52):
Some people have a hard timeleaving the sky, some people
have a hard time leaving theearth, but the the truth is
someplace in the middle, right?
So the way I work with myclients, I try to meet them
where they are.
And sometimes when you havefamily to feed and you lost your
job, you're really on theground, you're on the earth, and
you need to deal with earthymatters on terms of how do I
(35:15):
structure my resume, how who doI talk to?
And I help people to deal withthat.
And I try to bring some sky tothat to to to the point that
it's relevant and it servesthem.
Uh, or sometimes it's notreally the right time to think
about the sky.
Yeah, it's the time to be onearth.
But in my philosophy, my goalis always to bring the sky and
(35:39):
the earth together, right?
So that's I think where themagic happens, when you can be
aspirational and dreamy andbring it into reality and have
an amazing life.
Yeah.
Scott Allen (35:52):
Well, and I I I imagine when it's when it's
someone's been laid off andthey're kind of in that earth,
it becomes more it can be, Iimagine, become more important
about finding that next job thanreally potentially living into
the best new version of you.
(36:12):
Uh for me, that that proactiveapproach where you can um, as
you said, when you're in aposition of strength, doing that
strategy, doing the strategythen, that is um, it's
invaluable.
And I think the people whoinvest in that with people like
you, that's invaluable becauseas we talked about in the very,
(36:36):
very beginning, there's a lot ofchange afoot.
And are we staying close tothat and staying on the cutting
edge and orienting and drivingour future versus having that be
decided for us?
And that's why I mean, a wordcame to mind nimble, bold,
reinventor, you know, dostrategic opportunist.
(36:58):
Do you have some hustle?
And each of us have to behustling a little bit right now
to ensure that we are moving inthe right direction towards
where things are headed, versusgetting kind of swept up in it.
And um, you know, anything elsethat you want to say before we
begin to wind down our timetogether?
Or before we wind down ourtime, I should say.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
Sure.
I I just want to leave peoplewhere, you know, when there is
change, it's always the time foropportunity.
So we need not forget sometimeslife could kick us, you know,
and we will access this worldfrom change from the bottom, and
sometimes we access it from thetop, you know.
But what do we need to forget?
(37:40):
The opportunities are there.
I also think about our careerssometimes is the best practice
for our spiritual developmentand our growth.
So there's there's just a lotin this life to taste and
experience and be bold andnimble.
Scott Allen (37:58):
Love it.
I love it.
I'm gonna call this episodeEarth, Sky, and Soup.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
I don't know whom that will attract, but you know.
Scott Allen (38:09):
Okay, so I always close out the episode just by
asking guests what they've beenreading, streaming, what's
caught your attention in recenttimes.
Uh, it could be somethingyou've been listening to, but
what might interest listeners injust 30 seconds or less.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
Yeah, so one of my favorite books that I can never
stop recommending is ByronKatie, uh loving what is.
Byron Katie is like an amazing,prolific teacher.
And she developed a methodologythat helps you in it the most
simple ways question yourthoughts in reality.
And that's actually what weneed right now: questioning our
(38:45):
thoughts in reality, questioningour disempowering thoughts,
questioning our thoughts aboutthe future.
That's one of my alwaysrecommended books on the list.
Scott Allen (38:55):
Oh, I love it.
Okay.
Loving what is.
I got it.
I got it.
Misha, thank you so much foryour time today.
I really, really appreciateyou.
Appreciate your wisdom.
Thank you for sharing it withlisteners.
And until next time, be well.
Thank you.
It's my pleasure.
Okay, before we get to mysummary of that episode, I have
a special guest, and this is Dr.
(39:16):
Marcy Levy Shankman.
And we have been colleagues,co-authors, friends since
probably like 2006, back in theday, back in 06.
She is helping with ILA'sdialogue lab.
And so, Marcy, tell listeners alittle bit about this
opportunity and how they can getinvolved, how they can get
engaged.
(39:36):
New Orleans in January soundspretty good to me.
Tell us a little bit more.
Marcy Shankman (39:42):
So, Scott, thanks for asking me to talk a
little bit about the dialoguelab.
This is a really excitingexperience.
It's only offered every otheryear.
We're going to be in NewOrleans, as you said.
So, this three-day dialoguelab, which is going to be in New
Orleans, is focused on dialogueas a form of leadership.
So that means we're not goingto have panels, we're not going
(40:02):
to have workshops, we're notgoing to have presentations.
What we're going to have istrue deep engagement.
So individuals will sponsorinquiry sessions, and those
individuals are the participantsthemselves.
And if you're interested inattending the dialogue lab, you
can come and participate as afull-fledged member of the
community.
This is a full-on, co-createdlearning community.
(40:26):
And if you want to bump up yourlevel of engagement, then you
can propose a topic to discuss.
And the proposal is simply aquestion.
And that's what we call ourinquiry sessions.
We're also going to takeadvantage of being in New
Orleans, which means we're goingto have this experience
grounded in music, food, andcivic life.
And we'll have opportunities toengage with members of the New
(40:49):
Orleans community.
So we think this is the righttime for this gathering.
Dialogue's needed in this timeof polarization, of complexity,
and of disconnection.
And the dialogue lab is uh anantidote of sorts to that.
We want people to come who areinterested in expressing their
curiosity, who have courage toask deep questions, practice
(41:12):
deep listening, express theirvulnerability.
Expertise is not a requirement.
A growth mindset is.
So we're really excited toinvite your listeners to apply
to participate.
The gathering is about threedays, as I mentioned earlier,
January 30th to February 1st of2026.
(41:32):
And all who are interested inleadership are invited to
attend.
Scott Allen (41:37):
Awesome.
And I what I love in there isyour you mentioned the
opportunity to practice.
And we can practice listeningand practice engaging and
practice discernment and trulybeing present and mindful.
Absolutely love it.
So for listeners, there is allkinds of information in the show
(41:58):
notes.
So please feel free to checkthat out there.
And you know what, Marcy, thankyou so much for being a part of
the leadership team that'sputting this on.
And thanks so much for stoppingby today.
I hope it goes awesome.
Marcy Shankman (42:11):
Thanks, Scott.
Scott Allen (42:16):
My personal sense is that there's going to be a
lot of disruption uh primarilyamong white-collar workers in
the next five to seven years.
Sooner than that.
People like Misha are out thereand serving as guides, helping
people even begin to think abouttransitions, think about what's
(42:36):
next, think about how to stayrelevant.
And I think, as you've heard mesay before, having those
thinking partners is worth itsweight in gold.
As Wayne Gretzky said, skatewhere the puck is going.
Are you seeing around thecorners?
And having people like Misha inyour corner can be a game
(42:57):
changer.
That's the practical wisdom forme.
As always, thanks for checkingin.
Take care.
Be well.
Okay, everybody, welcome to Practical Wisdom for
Leaders.
Thank you so much for checkingin wherever you are in the
world.
Today, I have Misha Rubin, andhe is an executive What's Next
strategist.
So I'm excited to explore that.
He is a former partner at EY.
Lots going on in hisbackground.
You can check out his bio inthe show notes for the full bio.
(03:43):
But Misha, uh, before we jumpin, what do listeners need to
know about you?
I know you're sitting in NewYork right now, which is an
awesome place.
I just told you I was therelast week, which I love, love,
love the city.
My daughters, they they arelooking forward to next spring.
We are gonna spend probablythree days in the city and see
shows.
But um, what do people need toknow about you?
Misha Rubin (04:06):
Listen, I I was a partner at Ernsting Young.
I spent about 15 years umworking with executives from all
key top Wall Street firms.
So I've seen a lot of corporateworld and how it functions and
how it doesn't, and I've seen uhhow to navigate this world for
(04:27):
myself.
I also, you know, hired people,promoted people, uh increased
their compensation.
So I was on all the differentparts of equations and seen ins
and outs of how corporate worldworks.
And I've always thought thatleaders, and I know leadership
is one of the key topics andcontext for our conversation,
(04:49):
that leaders in organizationshave a lot of responsibilities.
They have to deliver, they haveto take care of their people,
they have to uh be on the top ofthe knowledge and the latest
informations or regulations ortechnologies.
There's a lot of expectationsof leaders.
And very often, leadersthemselves are not being taken
(05:10):
care of for their careers, fortheir own decision making, for
them to figure out what's nextfor them.
Are they in the right spot?
Are they growing into the rightdirection?
So that's the expertise that Iwould love to bring to your
listeners.
Yes.
Okay, well, I'm so excited tohave this conversation.
We have not had an episode andspecifically on you know what's
(05:33):
next for executives, who'shelping them think through?
Who are their thinkingpartners?
And so at least I'm kind ofthinking of you as like a
thinking partner, a coach whocan help people really better
understand what they even needto be considering when it comes
to this space.
So, what are you seeing outthere?
How are how are you kind ofmaking sense of this space right
(05:55):
now?
What do you see the needs as?
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Well, one of the things that I see that the world
is changing.
And um, and I don't thinkthat's being fully appreciated
because uh in some aspects ofour economy, um, the change
might come slower.
You know, artificialintelligence is definitely
making big steps.
I don't think people realizehow big the change is going to
(06:21):
be, and how how actually all ourday-to-day and businesses and
how corporations work and howcareers are designed, that's all
is in the process of beingcompletely revamped.
So we're living in these veryexciting times.
It could be also a little bitscary.
I would say that in the past,your a status quo career was a
(06:46):
little bit like you know, a slowdeath, but that could actually
go on for a while.
I actually think that we'removing into the times when um
some of these slow-paced moving,not being proactive, the price
will come much faster.
So that's why it's you know, Idon't want to be alarmist, but
at the same time, I want peoplelike, hey, you gotta think about
(07:08):
what's next, how you'renavigating your career, how
you're managing it, how you'repreparing yourself for what's
next, so you are not leftbehind.
Scott Allen (07:19):
Well, I think it's so incredibly important.
I mean, just even in the couplerecent conversations I was in,
Misha, I mean, one was listeningto a podcast with a CMO, and
you know, he said, Yeah, we'reshort about 10 people, but we've
got AI.
And that was just a veryinteresting statement.
And then there was another uhconversation I was in recently,
(07:43):
and the individual said, youknow, we're basically paying
about two staff members in AIsubscriptions right now, but but
it's completely worth it.
And so just even statementslike this that just those two
little kind of wow, that'sinteresting.
I hadn't I I think I think youare exactly correct.
(08:03):
Uh change is afoot and are werelevant?
Are we on the cutting edge?
And are we thinking aboutwhat's next?
Are we thinking about andstrategizing otherwise, you
know, on the cutting edge or thechopping block, so to speak?
Totally.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Um, I would say you need to master five things in
order to prepare yourself forthis career.
I don't even want to say it'sof the future, I'm just I would
say career for the modernexecutive, you know.
Right now it's happening, andum five things doesn't mean you
(08:43):
need to master them all at once.
You can choose one at a time interms of based on your
circumstances.
But I think to build uh anamazing career in the time to
come, you do need to master allfive.
Number one is you gotta be amaster strategist.
And if you think about any uhcompany, you know, if if a CEO
(09:07):
didn't have a uh strategy forthe company, the board would
fire them.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
So we are CEOs of our careers and of our lives, and
somehow we are tolerating nothaving a strategy for our
career.
And strategy means, you know,having a vision, understanding
where you want to end up,understanding where the
opportunities are,understanding, like even in the
industry where you're in, whereit's heading, you know, do you
think there is a future there,or is there something else you
(09:33):
want to do?
So there's strategy that wouldencompass a lot of things,
including your inneraspirations, what type of
lifestyle you want to lead, forinstance, in the next 10 years.
And it should include themarket conditions and the
current world that we're livingin.
And that's all part of thestrategy.
So without having that, it'sactually very hard to make any
(09:53):
decent decisions for anything, Iwould say, in life, but
especially in career, and one ofthe big mistakes that people
have been making over decades ismaking a lot of circumstantial
career decisions.
And one of the reasons when youmake circumstantial decisions,
when you don't have a goodstrategy and vision of where
you're heading.
So that's number one.
Scott Allen (10:12):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Number two, you gotta be a pro fast tracker.
And here's what I mean.
So, what I mean, but whenyou're ending up in an
organization, any organization,you gotta know how to navigate
organization, how to buildrelationships, how to create
your personal brand withinorganization, how to identify
(10:36):
nonlinear opportunities.
I'll give you an example, aclient of mine, um, this is AI
story a little bit, because hecame to me and he was stuck and
a little depressed.
And he's like managing directorin a bank, so just doing really
well, but kind of really nothappy where he was.
And, you know, we were lookingat outside opportunity, inside
(10:56):
opportunity.
But part of it, you gotta bekeen on and be able to realize
that opportunities that are infront of you.
So why and where there areopportunities?
Either you need to get closerto where business making money,
that's where opportunities are,or you need to get closer,
another dimension would bestrategic initiatives.
That's where organizationsinvest money and resources.
(11:19):
So at that time, he wasn't anAI expert, but he was known for
the person that if you give himsomething new, he'll figure out
how to do it better than mostother people.
Nice.
And that time AI became athing, and he suddenly became AI
lead, a partner with technologyfor the whole big financial
(11:41):
department.
Yep, and that createdcompletely different
opportunities for him.
Now, that's what I mean by fasttracking, because the slow lane
is gone.
If you are in a slow lane, or Icall it railroad promotion
track, where you're waiting foryour boss to get fired or retire
or move on, that's a slowtrack, that's not a great place
(12:03):
to be nowadays.
Yep.
Okay, so that's the second one,right?
Yes, the third one, you gottabecome an expert reinventor.
Okay.
What I mean that given how fasteverything is moving, including
the technology and includingthe uh environment, you gotta
(12:24):
know how to reinvent yourself.
Meaning that you have certainskills, you have certain
experiences, you have certainabilities, capacities,
aspirations.
You should be able to repackagethem and close the gap and move
into different roles, differentindustries.
And that's a very importantskill that nowadays will just
become more important becauseyou will see, we will see some
(12:46):
industries will collapse, wewill see that some roles will
disappear, and the people thathave capacity to take and
repackage themselves and move,put them in different positions
will be the one that succeeds.
100% and the okay, so thefourth one, you gotta be a
strategic opportunist.
Okay.
(13:07):
This is a very particular skillof being able to see the
opportunities and to see theright ones for you.
Scott Allen (13:16):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
And you kind of need everything, you need all the
pieces, you need to bestrategic, so you need to have a
strategy.
You might need to know how tofast track and identify
opportunities within yourorganization.
You might be able to reinvent,but it's almost like a whole
different lens of things interms of moving your career
forward.
And that's like if you'relooking, for instance, to make
(13:37):
more money, or if you'relooking, for instance, to have
much bigger impact, you gotta bestrategic opportunist.
So you identify theseopportunities that give you uh
uh possibility to do thesethings.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
And the last but not the least, this is, and I and
I'm still articulating the nameof it, but let's call it hmm
mindset slash your slash yourenergy energy field slash your
nervous system.
Okay, because it combines allthese kind of soft things that
people everybody talks about,but nobody knows how to put a
(14:10):
finger on.
Because if you think about yournervous system, is has a
capacity for you know forinteracting with an
organization, deal with unknown,deal with fear.
So it will be a limiting factorin your growth, and you and
your nervous system is liveswithin your energetic field, and
(14:33):
you can feel energy, like youcan think about asking boss to
give you a 50% raise, and youcan feel the energy or fear or
discomfort coming in.
So those are very real thingsthat you can feel, and they're
actually part of your broaderconsciousness that you operate.
So, and then inside of that,you will also see your mindset
(14:54):
and your belief system that alsolives there.
And if, for instance, you don'tsee what's possible for you,
right?
If you have a limitation onyour personal possibility, that
will have a limit.
If, for instance, you um have alow self-worth, so your own
evaluation of your worth andyour potential, that will put a
(15:17):
lid on your opportunities.
If you don't have enough agencyto advocate yourself and pursue
things that you don't, thatwill put a limitation of you.
So, this these all things livein a paradigm of your mindset,
your nervous system and energy,and you know, and an energetic
circle, but they all pretty muchwill create kind of a backdrop
(15:43):
of everything that will happento you.
And I would say, in terms ofthere are two key qualities that
will have you survive in anyeconomy and in any environment
nowadays, and those are beingnimble and bold.
So, in this new career paradigmthat we're entering, just being
(16:05):
competent is not enough becauseall the knowledge now, you
know, people used to get PhDsand you know, go study in law
school, and the knowledge usedto be very valuable, and it's
still valuable in certain areas.
But now the other thing we needto understand with AI, a lot of
knowledge is easily accessible,that it's available to you on
(16:26):
demand, even if you don't have abackground in it or you don't
know what it is.
So I think that's a veryprofound change when whatever it
is you know is becoming lessvaluable.
It's whatever you can create,whatever you can interpret,
whatever you can maybe even feelor sense, because there is a
limitation to AI systems.
They they operate in veryparticular paradigms and models,
(16:50):
and they have certainlimitations, how they think.
So that's where being nimbleand bold will serve you in terms
of finding opportunities andfigure out how to move forward.
Scott Allen (17:02):
Yeah, there's so much good here, so much good
here.
So I I I have like 17 thingsgoing through my head, and so I
I love love.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Good thing I have a nimble and bold mindset.
So I can I'm just I just okay,I gotta be nimble and bold to
prepare.
What's incoming?
Oh man.
Well, can I just repeat thefive things just so that they
kind of land with the listener?
Yeah.
So number one is your strategy,you know, that's so important.
And and I always think don'ttry to address all of them, just
(17:37):
pick one, you know.
So strategy would be all alwayslike most obvious for most
people.
Number two, becoming a masterfast tracker, knowing how to
navigate organizations, yeah.
Number three, being aprofessional reinventor, and
number four, being strategicopportunist, right?
Identifying opportunities andbeing able to pursue them.
(18:00):
And number five, this is yourkind of the soft part, your
mindset, your nervous system,your energy field, and how you
develop it to meet the needs ofthe future.
Now I'm ready for yourquestions.
Scott Allen (18:11):
Yeah.
Well, and then and then, ofcourse, you are nimble and bold.
I mean, you are well, I thinkfor some listeners right now, to
your point, you know, thiscould feel large, but I want to
tell a little bit of a story.
And I I think probably aboutthree years ago, I was a I was a
professor of management at auniversity.
(18:33):
It'd be like Fordham in yourneck in your neck of the woods,
a Jesuit institution.
And professor of management,and I just started paying
attention to my energy.
I was a little less excited togo to class.
I wasn't feeling as energetic,just naturally energetic about
the work.
I I was feeling a little bitbored.
I was getting a little moreeasily agitated by the normal
(18:57):
workings of organizational life.
I'd been there for at that timeprobably 15 years.
So the first step for me wasjust paying really close
attention to kind of thatenergy.
It was like, huh, hmm,interesting.
And then, you know, I tappedsome of my thinking partners.
I have a therapist, I have amentor, my wife, some other
(19:21):
individuals that I reallyrespect their opinions.
And I just started having someconversations.
And, you know, having a partnerlike you, having an individual
who can coach some of thoseconversations, who can help
someone gain clarity.
And I just spoke with a friendwho's maybe like three years
behind me, but is just kind ofstarting to feel some of those
(19:43):
inklings themselves.
And, you know, for me, that waskind of the first step of even
beginning to develop thatstrategy.
It was, okay, here's where Iam.
And then as I got more and moreclear, I could start to make
some decisions, like, oh, okay,let's let's financially ensure
that we're in the right space.
(20:04):
So we made some adjustments tofinances and just started slowly
moving some pieces into placeso that if there was a decision,
there were some barriers thatwere no longer as big a concern.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Right.
Scott Allen (20:18):
But this whole, you know, strategist, I I mean, I
love all of these because I maynot necessarily know where I
want to go, but having someonelike you and having an expert to
help guide some of thoseconversations, help connect some
dots, help me make sense of theopportunities, I think it's
(20:40):
invaluable because as you, Iknow a lot of people who they're
they feel stuck, they feel likethey're a prisoner, they don't
have options, and they uh maynot make the bold decision to
live into a better version ofthemselves or the next version
of themselves or the next kindof chapter of their career.
(21:02):
But strategist, pro-fasttracker, reinventor,
opportunist, strategicopportunist, and then you know,
your mindset, kind of thatoperating system, your energy.
It's hard to hide your energy.
It's hard to hide that, hard tofake that.
I just I absolutely love it.
(21:25):
I absolutely love it.
But for like where you started,kind of where am I headed?
What's north?
And I might not know that it'sexactly north, but I what's the
direction I'm moving in?
When you're when you're helpingsomeone like I was in that
state, kind of gain sense ofeven beginning to think about
strategy, talk about that.
(21:47):
I'm really, really interestedin kind of that phase.
I imagine you get some clientswhere they're like, I don't
know, I'm not sure.
I just kind of know that I'mnot feeling it's not, you know
what I mean?
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
First, I want to address whatyou started about to you,
because I think number one, yougotta be conscious of your
energetic field.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
Yes, right.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
That's what you said, and I think a lot of people,
and nowadays when I talk aboutenergetic field, I'm not talking
about some woo-woo things.
I'm telling you, you feel it,you feel when things are off,
you feel when you don't want togo to work, when you um don't
feel fulfilled.
You know, there's all thesevery clear, and then your energy
(22:30):
level goes down, and you outputand input.
Scott Allen (22:33):
In the literature, it's called emotional labor.
So this is an extreme example,but you might have a prostitute
or you might have a server in arestaurant, they have to pretend
that they're enjoying becauseauthentically, that's not really
where I am authentically.
So you have to quote unquoteact.
I I had to turn it on more,pretend the enthusiasm, the
(22:57):
excitement, the energy.
And I could feel that, and Iknew it wasn't authentic.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
And for some people, they've been leading for this
for so long that they stillabsorb it into their identity.
So I think if there is, and I'mthinking about people who are
listening to this right now,that number one thing tune into
your energy field and see whereyou are.
You excited about life?
Are you making the type ofdifference you want to be
(23:23):
making?
You know, are you are you proudof your life?
Do you feel fulfilled?
Those are great questions.
And I think sometimes we resignourselves that life just has to
be like in a very particularbox, and we uh stop dreaming.
So I think that's kind of to mea wake-up call to everybody who
is not feeling 100%, don'twait.
(23:46):
Because I all I know that ifyou wondering whether what's
figuring out what's next,whether it's the right time for
this right now, my answer isalways like you should have
started a year ago.
If you're wondering about this,then you should have so you're
always better off starting whenyou're in a great spot.
In fact, if you're doingamazingly well, this is your
(24:08):
perfect time to plot where youwant to head.
And then, of course, peoplehave circumstances and life
happens, and sometimes we haveto do it in not great
circumstances.
But if you have greatcircumstances, perfect timing.
Anyway, so your question wasabout how so how do you figure
out the strategy, right?
Yeah, and I would say there islike a bunch of ingredients.
(24:30):
I I think about it as like Idon't know, maybe a soup.
You know, I'm I love to cook,so I have a soup analogy.
So, but think about what wouldbe the ingredients of figuring
out your strategy.
So, number one would be I callit you plus 10.
So it would be Scott plus 10.
Envisioning life 10 years fromnow.
(24:52):
Yeah, let's let's look at ithappened, whatever it is you
want, it occurred.
Who is that person?
Like where they are, whatmotivates them, how did they
make it there?
That's an example of a NorthStar.
That and for some people itcould look like a very
particular goal, for some peopleit could be blurry, for some it
(25:13):
might take a while to getthere.
But engaging in this exerciseof looking at you plus 10 is an
amazing way to kind of look atthe direction of your life and
see where currently are takesyou there.
Or you and the other thingabout a great thing about what I
what I say creating a vision,because vision is not a goal.
(25:36):
I don't want to think, I don'twant to mix those two concepts
because what's great aboutvision, you can always adjust it
as you move closer to yourvision, might you might change
your mind, you might have moreor you might adjust it.
So to me, it's not like aone-time exercise, it's it's
it's a forever exercise whereyou always can recalibrate where
you're going and adjust yoursteps, right?
So that's one piece ofequation.
(25:58):
The second piece of equation, Iwould look at you and your
criteria.
And those criteria, I thinkabout an iceberg here, because
some of the criteria could belike, I want to make that much
money, I want to work in thattype of a company.
There are some things that liveon its surface and some things
that everybody talks about, butthen there are things that are
(26:18):
hidden from you.
So there are a lot ofsuccessful people that are
miserable, and how do I know?
You know, I was one of them,you know.
So just because you're meetingsome of the surface parts of the
iceberg doesn't mean thatyou're meeting your inner needs.
So there are things thatactually bring you meaning and
fulfillment, there are thingsthat bring you joy.
It's important to investigate.
(26:40):
There's a value system that youactually developed when you
were a child that is guidingyou, but because it's not
articulated for people and notum not articulated in language
and hidden from their view.
Very often people say, I knowwhat I don't want, but I don't
know what I want.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
And and um, so that could be like another set of
exercises, really understandwhat are my criteria for what's
next for me.
Yes, that's another piece.
Yes, the third thing, and oneof the and this goes back to my
theory that people don't regretdecisions, people regret how
they arrived to their decisions.
(27:21):
And one of the reasons peopleuh regret their decisions is
because they haven't consideredall of their options, and this
is very important exercise to dothis exploration and say, okay,
I know where I'm heading, Iknow that some of my criteria,
but there could be a lot ofactually different pathways
there and a lot of steps thatcould take me there.
(27:43):
Let's explore variety of them,let's explore actually really
deeply and widely.
And this is where a lot of fearkicks in.
Is that people think if theyput something on a sheet of
paper, they commit to doingsomething, but in reality, they
just really need to explore,right?
Yep, yeah.
Then another piece of strategycould be looking at external
(28:04):
world and seeing where do Ithink the opportunities are?
Where do I think the placewhere I am, your organization,
your role, your your function,your industry, where do you
think they're heading?
Is there an opportunity there?
Do we think is do you are youplanning to stay there for the
next decade?
Or this is a you justtransition to something else.
(28:26):
Those are very important.
You maybe want to look whereyou want to live geographically,
or you want to decide is it alarge company or a small
company?
So this is you gotta look atthis macro view, and then if you
start mixing all these thingstogether, that you will find
things that overlap.
You get the misha soup, it's amisha soup, and it's you then
(28:49):
condense it, and usually youwill get to like um, and I do
this what you know, I help myclients make all types of moves,
some of them are radical, yeah.
You know, and that's how wearrived to some of their ideas.
I'll I'll give you an example.
You know, a client of mine wasthis like a big top shot lawyer
on Wall Street, making a lot ofmoney, you know, had a big team,
(29:14):
was also a mom of three,working really hard, you know,
scrambling for time, alwaystrust.
You know, when she came to meand like we looked at, for
instance, what is her criteria,you know, in her heart, she was
a humanitarian.
Wow.
And what she really wanted todo is also have more time with
(29:34):
her kids, you know.
So we designed a leap for herwhere she would make less money
by design.
It wasn't a coincidence, but itwas a very conscious choice.
But she ended up being ageneral counsel in this very
innovative foundation.
In the future, what she saw forherself running her own
nonprofit.
So we aligned all thesedifferent pieces and explored
(29:57):
all these ideas to get to thethings that work for her life.
Scott Allen (30:01):
Yeah, but I love I love that use of the word
design, right?
There was there's forethought,there's like there's knowledge,
there's there's intentionalchoice when it comes to design,
and you're helping her designwhat that can look like.
I absolutely love the use ofthat word.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
But that's really in the source of the work.
That's where you can make veryconscious choices, very
thought-through choices.
The other thing what stopspeople a lot in living a great
life is the fear of makingchanges.
Very much normal for humans tobe afraid of what you don't
(30:44):
know.
So if you don't, if I tell youthat you got a change and you
don't know what it is, and youdon't know whether you qualify
it, whether you will make enoughmoney, whether you'll be able
to support your family, whetheryour future will be the way you
want it, the less the more youdon't know, the scary it is.
Once you start going throughthis design type of an exercise,
(31:05):
when you start putting thingson the paper and all the pieces
of the puzzle and looking atthem, then you get to a final
piece of the puzzles that areactually very realistic.
And you can evaluate theirrisk, your readiness for them,
the gaps that you have.
And what will happen that youwill still have fear, but it
will be a fraction of the fearwhen you deal with something
(31:29):
completely unknown versus a verypractical idea that you arrive
to that you investigating andseeing whether that's the right
leap.
And what that allows people tomake very well thought through
decisions.
And what is a good decision isthe one that stands the test of
time.
And as I said, people don'tregret decision.
(31:51):
You know, I'll give you anexample.
I just went to this conferenceand I stayed in a hotel.
And as soon as I arrived atthat hotel, I said, that's a
wrong hotel.
And I immediately went back.
It's like, how did I choosethat hotel?
You know, how did I make this?
That was my initial, because weall want to learn, right?
So we always go back to thedecision-making process.
(32:12):
And what we see in thedecision-making process in
relation to career, you haven'tconsidered all your options.
You were not clear about whereyou want to take your life.
You you had fear and a lot ofother things that, in a way, so
it's always goes back to thedecision-making process.
So that's where you want toimprove.
If you want to have a greatcareer and a great life, make
(32:33):
better decisions.
Scott Allen (32:35):
Well, and I I I mean, this is kind of where I
want to start beginning to winddown the conversation, but let's
talk a little bit about time.
I imagine you have some clientswho, upon some of the initial
inklings that they want to bemore intentional, they want to
be more strategic.
(32:55):
Um, they're a strategist, theyknow they need to do that,
whether they're going to stay inthe organization and plot their
course forward, um, or whetherthey know they want to maybe
make a transition like theexample you shared.
I imagine some clients of yoursare proactive about this
conversation and invest inconversations with you because
(33:16):
it's a type of an investment.
It really is.
Um, and I and then I imagineyou come across some clients
where they've been laid off andit's an emergency.
Yes.
Talk about those two scenarioswhere you have the individual
who is is a little bit moreplaying the chess match and and
looking forward, whether again,internal or making a jump, and
(33:40):
you have time to work with thatindividual to design this, and
that individual who's in thedifferent situation.
What talk about those twoscenarios?
Speaker 1 (33:50):
So that's why I will repeat what I said before
because this is exactly whatcomes to the point.
Plot plot your future whenyou're in a strong position.
Yes, you have many more optionsand you have many more
possibilities, and you can thinkmuch straighter.
Yes, listen, when people getlaid off and they're concerned
about feeding their families,then you know what?
(34:11):
Forget about the future.
Go figure out how you'll feedyour family and give yourself
room because sometimes we needto do what we need to do.
I think the my philosophy is umhow to connect both.
You know, the sky is where ourdreams live, is their highest
aspiration lives.
(34:31):
This is where our soul residesand joy and all these things.
And then, but then there isearth, right?
So just talking about the skything and dreaming and
fantasizing not going to bringus a great life.
We have to bring this on earth.
Now, on earth, that means youneed practical and pragmatic.
(34:52):
Some people have a hard timeleaving the sky, some people
have a hard time leaving theearth, but the the truth is
someplace in the middle, right?
So the way I work with myclients, I try to meet them
where they are.
And sometimes when you havefamily to feed and you lost your
job, you're really on theground, you're on the earth, and
you need to deal with earthymatters on terms of how do I
(35:15):
structure my resume, how who doI talk to?
And I help people to deal withthat.
And I try to bring some sky tothat to to to the point that
it's relevant and it servesthem.
Uh, or sometimes it's notreally the right time to think
about the sky.
Yeah, it's the time to be onearth.
But in my philosophy, my goalis always to bring the sky and
(35:39):
the earth together, right?
So that's I think where themagic happens, when you can be
aspirational and dreamy andbring it into reality and have
an amazing life.
Yeah.
Scott Allen (35:52):
Well, and I I I imagine when it's when it's
someone's been laid off andthey're kind of in that earth,
it becomes more it can be, Iimagine, become more important
about finding that next job thanreally potentially living into
the best new version of you.
(36:12):
Uh for me, that that proactiveapproach where you can um, as
you said, when you're in aposition of strength, doing that
strategy, doing the strategythen, that is um, it's
invaluable.
And I think the people whoinvest in that with people like
you, that's invaluable becauseas we talked about in the very,
(36:36):
very beginning, there's a lot ofchange afoot.
And are we staying close tothat and staying on the cutting
edge and orienting and drivingour future versus having that be
decided for us?
And that's why I mean, a wordcame to mind nimble, bold,
reinventor, you know, dostrategic opportunist.
(36:58):
Do you have some hustle?
And each of us have to behustling a little bit right now
to ensure that we are moving inthe right direction towards
where things are headed, versusgetting kind of swept up in it.
And um, you know, anything elsethat you want to say before we
begin to wind down our timetogether?
Or before we wind down ourtime, I should say.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
Sure.
I I just want to leave peoplewhere, you know, when there is
change, it's always the time foropportunity.
So we need not forget sometimeslife could kick us, you know,
and we will access this worldfrom change from the bottom, and
sometimes we access it from thetop, you know.
But what do we need to forget?
(37:40):
The opportunities are there.
I also think about our careerssometimes is the best practice
for our spiritual developmentand our growth.
So there's there's just a lotin this life to taste and
experience and be bold andnimble.
Scott Allen (37:58):
Love it.
I love it.
I'm gonna call this episodeEarth, Sky, and Soup.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
I don't know whom that will attract, but you know.
Scott Allen (38:09):
Okay, so I always close out the episode just by
asking guests what they've beenreading, streaming, what's
caught your attention in recenttimes.
Uh, it could be somethingyou've been listening to, but
what might interest listeners injust 30 seconds or less.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
Yeah, so one of my favorite books that I can never
stop recommending is ByronKatie, uh loving what is.
Byron Katie is like an amazing,prolific teacher.
And she developed a methodologythat helps you in it the most
simple ways question yourthoughts in reality.
And that's actually what weneed right now: questioning our
(38:45):
thoughts in reality, questioningour disempowering thoughts,
questioning our thoughts aboutthe future.
That's one of my alwaysrecommended books on the list.
Scott Allen (38:55):
Oh, I love it.
Okay.
Loving what is.
I got it.
I got it.
Misha, thank you so much foryour time today.
I really, really appreciateyou.
Appreciate your wisdom.
Thank you for sharing it withlisteners.
And until next time, be well.
Thank you.
It's my pleasure.
Okay, before we get to mysummary of that episode, I have
a special guest, and this is Dr.
(39:16):
Marcy Levy Shankman.
And we have been colleagues,co-authors, friends since
probably like 2006, back in theday, back in 06.
She is helping with ILA'sdialogue lab.
And so, Marcy, tell listeners alittle bit about this
opportunity and how they can getinvolved, how they can get
engaged.
(39:36):
New Orleans in January soundspretty good to me.
Tell us a little bit more.
Marcy Shankman (39:42):
So, Scott, thanks for asking me to talk a
little bit about the dialoguelab.
This is a really excitingexperience.
It's only offered every otheryear.
We're going to be in NewOrleans, as you said.
So, this three-day dialoguelab, which is going to be in New
Orleans, is focused on dialogueas a form of leadership.
So that means we're not goingto have panels, we're not going
(40:02):
to have workshops, we're notgoing to have presentations.
What we're going to have istrue deep engagement.
So individuals will sponsorinquiry sessions, and those
individuals are the participantsthemselves.
And if you're interested inattending the dialogue lab, you
can come and participate as afull-fledged member of the
community.
This is a full-on, co-createdlearning community.
(40:26):
And if you want to bump up yourlevel of engagement, then you
can propose a topic to discuss.
And the proposal is simply aquestion.
And that's what we call ourinquiry sessions.
We're also going to takeadvantage of being in New
Orleans, which means we're goingto have this experience
grounded in music, food, andcivic life.
And we'll have opportunities toengage with members of the New
(40:49):
Orleans community.
So we think this is the righttime for this gathering.
Dialogue's needed in this timeof polarization, of complexity,
and of disconnection.
And the dialogue lab is uh anantidote of sorts to that.
We want people to come who areinterested in expressing their
curiosity, who have courage toask deep questions, practice
(41:12):
deep listening, express theirvulnerability.
Expertise is not a requirement.
A growth mindset is.
So we're really excited toinvite your listeners to apply
to participate.
The gathering is about threedays, as I mentioned earlier,
January 30th to February 1st of2026.
(41:32):
And all who are interested inleadership are invited to
attend.
Scott Allen (41:37):
Awesome.
And I what I love in there isyour you mentioned the
opportunity to practice.
And we can practice listeningand practice engaging and
practice discernment and trulybeing present and mindful.
Absolutely love it.
So for listeners, there is allkinds of information in the show
(41:58):
notes.
So please feel free to checkthat out there.
And you know what, Marcy, thankyou so much for being a part of
the leadership team that'sputting this on.
And thanks so much for stoppingby today.
I hope it goes awesome.
Marcy Shankman (42:11):
Thanks, Scott.
Scott Allen (42:16):
My personal sense is that there's going to be a
lot of disruption uh primarilyamong white-collar workers in
the next five to seven years.
Sooner than that.
People like Misha are out thereand serving as guides, helping
people even begin to think abouttransitions, think about what's
(42:36):
next, think about how to stayrelevant.
And I think, as you've heard mesay before, having those
thinking partners is worth itsweight in gold.
As Wayne Gretzky said, skatewhere the puck is going.
Are you seeing around thecorners?
And having people like Misha inyour corner can be a game
(42:57):
changer.
That's the practical wisdom forme.
As always, thanks for checkingin.
Take care.
Be well.
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