October 15, 2025 • 36 mins
Jonathan Reams, PhD, is currently doing action research projects exploring how to scale micro-skill development for habituating core leadership practices. He approaches this work drawing on experiences from holding a position at the Norwegian University of Science and Technology (NTNU) from 2007 until 2024, serving as editor-in-chief of Integral Review from 2005 to 2023, and being chief creative officer at the Center for Transformative Leadership and Adeptify.
A Few Quotes From This Episode
- "Leadership isn’t about position—it’s about behavior in the moment.”
- “We need proprioception of thought—awareness of our thinking as it arises.”
- “The feeling of being time-starved is an interpretation, not a fact.”
- “It’s not about a thousand skills to master; it’s about cultivating processes for clean thinking and wise action.”
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
- Article: Amal and Berndt’s paper on the knowing–doing gap
- Center for Creative Leadership’s DAC model
- Dynamic Skill Theory – Kurt Fischer
- David Bohm’s work on the proprioception of thought
- David Wagoner’s poem Lost
- Book: BJ Fogg’s Tiny Habits
- Book: James Clear’s Atomic Habits
- Book: Robert Kegan and Lisa Lahey’s Immunity to Change
- Book: Daniel Coyle’s The Talent Code
About The International Leadership Association (ILA)
- The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals interested in studying, practicing, and teaching leadership. Plan for Prague - October 15-18, 2025!
About Scott J. Allen
- Website
- Weekly Newsletter: Practical Wisdom for Leaders
- Blog
My Approach to Hosting
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Okay, everybody, welcome to Fornice's Practical
Wisdom for Leaders.
Thank you so much for checkingin.
This is episode 301.
If you have not listened toepisode 300, you want to do that
first.
This is my second conversation,this time with Dr Jonathan
Reams, and he is a curious soulout there in the world trying to
make sense of, along with meand many, many others.
(00:24):
You know, how do we betterprepare people to serve in these
really challenging roles ofleadership.
So we had this wonderfulconversation, jonathan, and
maybe you can summarize that,because I don't want to.
You can summarize that and thenmaybe set the table for where
this conversation is going to go.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Set the table for where this conversation is going
to go Sure.
Scott, thanks, I'm glad to beback and I would say that we
started circling around some ofthese core issues.
It started with theknowing-doing gap and Amal and
Berndt's paper and interview youdid with them.
That triggered me and got usoff into a lot of areas.
(01:04):
What's the foundation of whytraining is basically done in a
kind of reductionistic way?
That works for some thingstangible skills but when we get
into these quote-unquote softskills, more complex constructs
of leadership, somehow a gapappears.
(01:27):
So we talked about that.
But then we also talked aboutwhat is the part that we need to
clean up.
We can think really complexlyabout bad stuff and justify poor
behavior.
And what is the need to helpstudents or young leaders or
whoever at any age understandthe balance between cleaning up
(01:51):
and growing up.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
So that's kind of where we went.
In a sense, it's so thatcleaning up and growing up so
that we're in the best possibleplace we can be, you know,
developmentally, energetically,when we're serving others, right
.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
And this is back to your favorite phrase of mine,
although I'm sure I heard itelsewhere too but leaders create
the weather, although I'm sureI heard it elsewhere too but
leaders create the weather, andit's just a good metaphor for
(02:44):
saying that.
No matter what context we arein and this is one of the notes
I had made reading through thetranscript from Amal and Berndt
we are always following in somecontext.
Even if you're the CEO of alarge board, you have a large
organization, you have a boardto report to or shareholders to
report to, you have governmentregulatory things, you have
market.
So you're not leading all those, but you are leading what
you're responsible for, yes,what you're responsible for, yes
, and middle managers areleading their teams, the people
(03:10):
they're responsible for, butthey're also following their
bosses, their contacts, theirpeers.
But on a much more micro leveland this is something that I
believe I'm all brought up inthat conversation it's not just
about position, it's aboutbehavior in the moment.
(03:31):
So the Center for CreativeLeadership's DAC model you know
the direction bring somealignment to things and get
disparate points of view to seea little bit clearer or get
(03:51):
people engaged and committed.
That's an act of leadership,okay, so that also happens
within oneself and it startsthere.
And it starts there.
So how do we, for instance,break down self-mastery,
self-leadership?
Yeah Well, it involves ourthinking and our behaviors.
(04:14):
It's informed by our values,yes, also informed by our biases
(04:39):
.
Yes, oh yeah, size enough thatI could focus on it for a while
and I'll use that just as apreview to enter into this
domain of how do we use acombination of dynamic skill
theory Kurt Fisher, mike Mascolo, theo Dawson, others have
(05:02):
really understood which, to me,in its essence, kurt Fisher's
genius was taking Piaget'sunderstanding of how does our
epistemology grow to take inmore and more of the world, of
how we know, and combine thatwith behaviorism, saying how
(05:22):
does our performance getinfluenced by the context?
How does the environment aroundit and circumstances affect
what we're able to do?
And it's a dynamic combinationof those.
That is what we're looking at.
So, if we take that, and thenwhat is the natural way of
(05:43):
learning?
Little kids learn to walk byfailing a thousand times, yes,
and having this very rapidfeedback loop, and they see that
, okay, I fail and I learn, andI fail and I learn and
eventually, oh, then I'veinternalized that and I don't
(06:04):
think about it and one of thechallenges that we touched on
last time, and I think the termproprioception is helpful here.
Proprioception allows us tohave an immediate, felt sense
and feedback of what we intendand how our bodies move and how
(06:27):
we're moving in time and space,and that's very tangible.
But how do we haveproprioception of thought?
David bone, the, the physicistwho influenced people like peter
singing and bill isaacs in theorganizational learning field,
talked about this theproprioception of thought.
So we can notice it as it'sarising, just like we notice our
(06:51):
physical body moving as we move.
Yes, that's a different thingthat is much harder to be
interoceptively sensitive to.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
You're using $40,000 words here.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Well, Scott, when your stomach rumbles, you notice
it.
That's interoception you cannotice a state in your body.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
When I look at my daughter and say okay, just so
you know I'm at five.
Just just so you know, five outof ten, let's shift things up
here.
That's having propriocept.
Is that it?
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (07:32):
right you're now.
That's proprioception of yourstate okay so that you're
letting her know don't expectthe best performance from me in
this moment.
If you're looking to ask adifficult favor, maybe come back
later, right?
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Oh well, it yes.
Okay.
So my mind, my mind goes to howdoes it apply?
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Yeah, so part of what I would like to do is just lay
out a little bit of kind of somebuilding blocks or menu items,
please, ok, yes, yeah.
So one of the things that I'vecome to understand from dynamic
skill theory is it's a way ofunderstanding how do humans grow
(08:21):
and develop, and it starts withinfants learning reflexes.
Humans grow and develop and itstarts with infants learning
reflexes.
Okay, you learn to, you know,move your fingers and grasp
something, all these kind ofthings, and then those combine
in more and more complex waysuntil you can do sensory motor
actions.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Right, you can roll, you can start to crawl, you can
coordinate.
You know different things toget more and more complex, and a
good illustration somebody gaveonce is, for instance, you
maybe learn to brush your teeth.
You learn to put toothpaste on.
(08:59):
You learn at first to smear itall over your face, but
eventually you learn tocoordinate your cognitive
bandwidth to be able tointernalize those motions and
the feedback to to brush yourteeth properly.
Yes, and you learn to put yourpajamas on and, and at first you
put the bottoms on your headand you do, you know.
(09:20):
Put them on backwards andwhatever, but you do it enough
times and you learn them onbackwards and whatever, but you
do it enough times and you learnthat and it becomes routine and
eventually you maybe noticethat your parents are saying
this word bedtime and youeventually make the association
that, oh, all of these thingsbrushing my teeth, putting my
(09:41):
pajamas on, crawling into bed,doing you know whatever.
Brushing my teeth, putting mypajamas on, crawling into bed,
doing you know bedtime is arepresentation of a set of
sensory motor actions.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Yes, Okay, gotcha.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
So then you start building linguistic
representations of things in theworld.
Piaget talked about concreteoperations.
Right, you can do logic withthis, you can do arithmetic, you
can actually think in theseways, because you are now not
having to just do the thing, butyou can have a shorthand.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Right, and that shorthand allows you to do some
things.
Now I'll give a concreteexample.
At some point you can say, well, that's the truth, right, and
when you first use that as achild, you're referring to a
specific concrete thing beingthe truth.
(10:40):
Okay, now a little more complexformulation of that language is
saying well, that's not thetruth, because now you're
coordinating not with truth.
So you're actually making amore complex formulation.
Or maybe you say it's really thetruth and that's actually a
(11:01):
kind of system ofrepresentations that are put
together.
You know it's truth even then.
Or it's a kind of truth andyou're getting more nuance to it
, and so you see how theserepresentational things get more
developed.
But then you make a jump andyou say, oh, what is it to be
(11:24):
truthful?
And that is a move to what wecall abstractions.
You take a bunch ofrepresentations and make an
abstraction, because beingtruthful is a principle they're
going to apply to many concreteinstances.
And then, of course, you do thesame thing what's the whole
(11:47):
truth or what's an ugly truth?
And you combine two kind ofconcepts yep, a grain of truth.
So when you're in this range,you're now coordinating two
abstractions.
Okay, and that is where themajority of a norm of the adult
(12:08):
population is and teenage kidsget into this and this is kind
of normative high school andsometimes earlier in normative
high school and sometimesearlier.
What happens for some and yousee most of the discourse in
leadership and other places sayswhat happens when we don't just
(12:29):
have two things to coordinatebut, like family systems theory
or small group dynamics, youhave a bunch of things to
coordinate and actually alsohave relationships between them
going on and wow, suddenly it'sa lot more things going on.
But that skill depends uponhaving a robust set of
(12:53):
conceptual, abstract skills inthis earlier level, where you're
just building them and thencoordinating them.
So that's a quick overview ofdynamic skill theory.
It has a way of being able tomap at a very granular way what
are the building blocks and whatis the hierarchical sequence,
(13:18):
so to speak.
Yes, so if we talk, then, aboutself-master or self-leadership
and come back to what I wassaying before well, being aware
of our emotions okay, there'sour emotions.
We need to master those Well,we need to be aware of them and
we need to regulate them Well weeven need the emotional
(13:38):
literacy.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Like what are they?
Speaker 2 (13:40):
right.
So so and this goes granular,out and out and out.
So you've got to understandthem, you gotta notice the
effects of them, you gotta makedistinction between what are
adaptive and maladaptiveemotions and recognize them.
So these are all buildingblocks of self-leadership.
Now you can apply the samething to collaboration.
(14:04):
Yes, right, we're going to haveto work together to lead.
Right, you've got to get yourteam functioning well.
You've got to work nice withyour peers, so you want to
collaborate.
Well, there's a lot of thingsthat we can break this down into
smaller chunks, but what oftenhappens is leadership
(14:25):
development and training willsay okay, you got to collaborate
, so just go do it.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
It's all the things that are implicit yes, yes,
jonathan, I mean it's likesitting here, it's.
I hadn't thought of this waybefore, but let me know if I'm
on track with you.
It's like saying, oh, to be agreat basketball player, you
need to be able to hit threepointers, right, okay, we're
(14:53):
standing up there proud of thefact that, hey, you know what
You're going to have to hitthree pointers, and I don't know
enough about basketball to saylike four other things that you
probably need to do, but it's.
And then we wonder why.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
and then we wonder why people can't go and do it
right I mean that's that'swhat's so amazing to me so when
I read the uh talent code Ithink it was that book, dan
Coyle he talked about JohnWooden since you're talking
about basketball and what madeWooden so great as a coach was
(15:29):
that the way he coached was onprecise, granular feedback, on
minutiae that each individualperson was doing or not doing.
It was concrete, in-the-momentfeedback.
So, if we zoom back out, you'reon the right track so you can
take collaboration and say well,part of that is you've got to
(15:54):
start with yourself, right,you've got to have that in order
.
Then you got to be able tocommunicate, and there's a whole
world going on there about goodcommunication.
You got to be able toarticulate, explain, describe,
be clear, but you also have tobe able to listen.
Yes, you have to be able tolisten.
(16:15):
To learn is the phrase that I'vepicked up lately that, yeah,
it's not listen to reload, todefend, but it's listen to
actually hear and connect.
So then you need to seek othersperspectives and you had to
build trust for that.
You have to clarifyunderstanding.
You also need to be persuasive,and that means having good
(16:37):
argumentation.
You also have to work withbiases that you have, that
others have.
You have to seek perspectives.
So all of these can be brokendown and become the substrate or
the building blocks that couldbe taught as leadership
development.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Well, and so I'll push back gently because I agree
100% with everything you justsaid.
Now I have a busy executive infront of me.
I mean it gets to a point whereit feels unrealistic.
I'm sure people listening feellike well, when would I ever
(17:17):
have that time?
Who's even made sense of all ofthese subtopics that I'm going
to have to master?
So how do you think about that?
Because I know you'repassionate about this topic,
like scaling, but I keep hearingthe phrase and you've heard me
use it before on the podcasttime starved.
When do people have to learnall of these things?
(17:42):
I mean, it's tens of thousandsof things that probably someone
would have to have command of tobe successful.
So then it just feels a littlebit overwhelming, right?
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Yeah, so two things.
One is we were talking aboutwhat would we do to educate
young people in leadershipcourses in college.
What would we teach them tohelp them have the wisdom
related skills to learn fromtheir experience over time?
Yes, and I think that that'swhat I would point out, you can
(18:15):
use these things to help do that.
Yes, for the time for thepeople who are already in the
middle of everything, yes, whoare time-starved.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
I'm with them every day.
Right, every day, that's right.
If you get them into like ahalf hour or an hour or a half
day session, shit's just addingup.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
And of course, it always starts with the
counterintuitive move.
So when I've done programs likethat, I would generally use a
little video clip that I put onYouTube from David White, and
he's using David Wagoner's poemlost, the salish indian teaching
(19:01):
story.
Young kids come to an elder andsay what do I do when I'm lost
in this climax cedar forest?
Or you can't see any landmarksor anything and you know I I
don't have it in front of me,but it's like stand still, the
forest around you is not lost,it knows where you are.
You have to stand still and letit find you.
(19:25):
Mm-hmm.
So this is the first move forthe time starved executive.
It's always like the momentumof the feeling of being time
starved in itself is aninterpretation of events.
Yes, so how do you get on thebalcony and regulate that Notice
?
Wow, I'm feeling pressured.
(19:46):
I feel like my response tobeing pressured needs to be go
faster and go harder.
Yeah, hmm, is there another way?
Yeah, and that, to me, is theopening to say okay, stop and
just breathe.
Yeah, the world is not going tocollapse if you take a breath
for 10 seconds and allow becausethere is a lot of research too,
(20:10):
too if you take two or threedeep breaths.
It does stuff to the brain.
It calms you down, yeah.
And then you have moreresources to manage and regulate
and not be subject to theautomatic patterns and habits
that drive you down against thebrick wall endlessly, yes, and
(20:31):
get you into these situations.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Well, and the executives, I think all day long
are being seduced into that.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Oh, all day long.
It's back to part of thisparadigm of our whole society
and education and productivityand effectiveness.
But productivity andeffectiveness are downstream
symptoms of moments of influence, moments of interventions that
(21:01):
are high leverage, that generatethose downstream benefits.
So what I think is, if you thenstop and recognize okay, I'm in
the middle of everything, whatdo I do?
Well, stand still, okay.
Oh, I bet there is some lessonI can learn right now, in this
(21:27):
moment what could I notice aboutwhat's not working and what
I've tried and what could I trydifferent?
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
And then it's not about building out this map of a
thousand skills that I've gotto master and build up, because
inevitably you already have alot of these.
They are very human and youdon't always know.
So I'm all made up, it's a badquestion, jonathan, I mean.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
So that question is like a E equals MC squared
Underneath E equals MC squaredare just I don't know infinite
number of things.
I don't know, but you know.
So I think what I'm sointerested in and why I love
this conversation with you is,you know, I think there's and I
(22:28):
imagine you could do it what arethe eight questions that are
going to help you navigate?
What you need to navigate?
How do we get our thinking andthe title is I had a guest on
(23:00):
and he just talked about, likethe people he's working with is
that there's so much noise outthere in the sphere podcasts,
and this podcast has been a partof that noise, because my own
thinking isn't clean, I'm notcommunicating it to others in a
clean way and so it's justconfusing.
It's just more noise a lot ofthe time.
And how do we get our thinkingso clean that we cut through
that noise and be of service,like literally right now, of
(23:22):
service to these individuals andthat right?
There is one of those questionsin my mind.
Push back if you disagree.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
No, and this is why I said that the primary thing is
how do we move from a contentlist of things to attend to to a
principled process?
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
And so if we were to create steps in the process, the
first is stand still.
You know, breathe, stand stilland that will reduce some of the
noise.
Yeah, right, just doing that.
Then it say, okay, I'm going toapply this principle, that I've
been doing things on a certainbasis.
(24:01):
Why did I do them?
What worked, what didn't work?
An after action review yeah, ifit's a 30 second thing, no
problem.
And what we're going to say thenis that look around you.
Oh, where you got off on thisis where I said amal had pointed
(24:22):
to that people have thesethings in them in some way, and
what we want to do is trust that.
People have foundational skillsbut they're confused by the
noise, distracted by it, so theydon't always trust or have
confidence in those things, orthey've had modeling that
(24:43):
doesn't allow them to deploythat.
So, no, you should do thesethings.
Yeah, so it is a little bit oftrusting in what.
(25:19):
Where you're at and lookingthey hear them, is loaded by
their experience, and thecommunication gap can be
enormous and sometimes it canoverlap.
So what?
How do we balance out better?
We need to give some conceptsand some things, but how do we
balance that better with process.
So what we're experimentingwith in the kind of training
(25:39):
we're trying to scale is what Isay is more of pointing out
instructions.
So what we start with is saywhat triggers you?
Okay, just start noticing whenyou're getting triggered and for
two weeks just notice yourselfgetting triggered.
Yeah, then for two weeks justnotice what happens when you get
(26:00):
triggered.
Yeah, and it's like what,what's physiologically going on
in your body?
What kind of felt senses orwhat kind of emotions do you
make of that?
What are the thinking patterns?
Are you ruminating, are youcatastrophizing?
Are you making up storiesjustifying whatever?
Just notice those things andkind of map them.
Then you're learning from yourexperience, at your language,
(26:25):
your level.
Then we do kind of like webuilt this somewhat off of
immunity to change.
Say, say, the reason you gottriggered is something was
threatened.
Ok, so that's something thatwas threatened.
How can you give a name to it?
There's probably a beliefassociated with it and there's
probably a fear that somethingis at risk here, is at risk here
(26:53):
.
Can you name that and make anobject of it?
So get a little bit of distanceso that then all that that
you've mapped out, you can sayhow can I take it and move it to
the side and sit in thedriver's seat now, without that
automatic habituated responseacting you know people talk
about this in a thousanddifferent ways just move into
(27:15):
that gap and sit down and saywhat else could be going on,
what else could I do, where elsedo I want to go?
And do it at your scale, yourlevel, your pace and habituate
that, yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
And this is another one of those knowing doing gaps.
That back to the paper.
That kind of sparked thisconversation in some ways.
But I had a physician say to mefour months ago hey, before you
eat lunch because I can overeat, right, I want to feel satiated
(27:53):
.
They'll say, drink a glass ofwater.
And I'll say, oh yeah, thatmakes perfect sense.
I'm going to drink a glass ofwater.
Well, jonathan, 99% of the timeI forget.
I don't have a hack to helpchange that neural pathway in my
mind.
So, then you get into, like someBJ Fogg or some James Clear,
(28:16):
atomic habits or tiny habits,yeah, where literally we have to
break, we have to create a hackLike what am I going to do?
Like, maybe it's on my to-dolist in the morning.
It says drink water before.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Well, so how much pain do you so while I drink?
Uh, I get hungry in the morning, but I'm trying not to eat so
much in the morning and I'llhave a glass of water with
electrolytes in it and that Inotice.
Oh, I'm not hungry now and soit works what your doctor is
telling you and I literallyforget.
I know.
(28:49):
So part of why we don't payattention and forget is because
it's not emotionally painful orsalient enough for us.
Yeah, right, you've got to feelthe pain to be motivated and
you've got to feel the dopaminehit that hey, oh, I'm getting
something from this.
You know something's happening,and so this is why, in the way
(29:13):
we're designing things to tryand close the knowing doing gap,
we're trying to use whattriggers you, because that's
important to you.
You know you care about that.
It's how Keegan and Leahy didthe seven languages.
You know it wasn't the immunityto change.
Four columns, seven languages.
you know it wasn't the immunityto change for columns they
(29:35):
started out with nbc nagging,bitching, complaining, yeah, and
won't wound people down intosaying you're nagging about
those things because you careabout something.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Now voice what you care about yeah, well, okay,
jonathan, we have to wind downour time.
Here we are, so put a button inthis conversation now.
We're going to have to winddown our time.
Here we are, so put a button inthis conversation now and we're
going to do a third.
So, listeners, jonathan justwent.
Oh no, no, this is critical.
(30:06):
This is so important because Ithink we're getting to some core
things here.
But would you put a button inthis conversation?
What do you think and I don'teven know if that's a real
phrase put a button in it.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
Well, wrap it up in a book you want me to you know,
do what's the practical wisdom,so you don't have to do your
reflection.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
I don't want to think you're making my brain hurt.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
You know, but part, and I get why it hurts, because
I've spent decades learning frompeople like Keegan and people
like Theo Dawson and MikeMascolo and others Suzanne
Cook-Greiter you know where Igot to learn, not just from
reading, but from hanging outand being able to absorb in a
richer way the nuance of theirbeing in relation to that body
(30:52):
of knowledge, and it's vast andit's a lot to take in.
And I think it's the job ofthose of us trying to close the
knowing-doing gap, to be theeditors of all of that, to
produce something that peoplecan access.
It's like you say it's clean,it's clear, it's streamlined,
(31:12):
and they say, wow, I getsomething from this, it's
working, yes, yes and I think toget there.
We're laying out what.
What do we know?
For instance, I didn't eventouch on all the stuff about
neuroscience, about how thepredictive brain and feedback
models and how we metaregulate.
That is what we're talkingabout as well.
(31:33):
So there's lots of sciencebehind it, but the end user
doesn't want to know the science.
They just want to say does itwork and what do I?
Speaker 1 (31:41):
do yes and and again.
Like I said in our firstconversation, we come up with
the suzuki method and go and andreally really begin to truly
experiment and I don't mean thatin a willy-nilly way, but we
truly see if we can be ofservice.
Because I think again a lot ofthese conversations and I like
(32:02):
your framing of what is ofservice when someone's a youth,
what is of service whensomeone's in college, what's
service if I have an executiveright now at 44?
You know that amy elizabeth foxconversation where she's like,
look, I want them to beperformance ready.
Well, okay, shit, you're in it.
How do we help you right now,in this moment, be as successful
(32:24):
as you can?
Speaker 2 (32:25):
be right, and that's how do we help them clean up so
they're not weighed down bybaggage and therefore can't be
ready to perform because theirresources aren't available, and
how do we give them resources?
Speaker 1 (32:38):
Yes, and that might be, hey, the question you just
posed, like literally 15 minutesago, like questions like that
as a flotation device to helpthem.
Or it might be therecommendation of do you have a
therapist or a coach that'sgoing to help you make sense of
what's swirling on around you?
I mean, I'm really interestedright now in some of those
(32:59):
actionable ways that, giveneverything we know, I had an
oral surgeon standing in frontof me who was taking over a
practice and he was scared.
Great, oral surgeon knowsnothing about leadership.
So he said what do I need to do?
And and I said you know what?
Build relationships for thenext three months.
Get to know your team that'sprobably the best place Learn
(33:22):
from them and buildrelationships and then let's
communicate, let's talk, butthat's a great and that's the
type of knowledge that we needto be able to share with another
human standing across from uswho's hurting.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
But your example is perfect because he's in the
middle of everything, yes, andhe is learning from the
curriculum.
It's right in front of thepeople there can teach him Yep,
yep, so Oof.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
Okay, till next time, scott.
Okay, thank you, sir.
I appreciate it, as always,jonathan take care scott.
Okay, everybody, welcome to Fornice's Practical
Wisdom for Leaders.
Thank you so much for checkingin.
This is episode 301.
If you have not listened toepisode 300, you want to do that
first.
This is my second conversation,this time with Dr Jonathan
Reams, and he is a curious soulout there in the world trying to
make sense of, along with meand many, many others.
(00:24):
You know, how do we betterprepare people to serve in these
really challenging roles ofleadership.
So we had this wonderfulconversation, jonathan, and
maybe you can summarize that,because I don't want to.
You can summarize that and thenmaybe set the table for where
this conversation is going to go.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Set the table for where this conversation is going
to go Sure.
Scott, thanks, I'm glad to beback and I would say that we
started circling around some ofthese core issues.
It started with theknowing-doing gap and Amal and
Berndt's paper and interview youdid with them.
That triggered me and got usoff into a lot of areas.
(01:04):
What's the foundation of whytraining is basically done in a
kind of reductionistic way?
That works for some thingstangible skills but when we get
into these quote-unquote softskills, more complex constructs
of leadership, somehow a gapappears.
(01:27):
So we talked about that.
But then we also talked aboutwhat is the part that we need to
clean up.
We can think really complexlyabout bad stuff and justify poor
behavior.
And what is the need to helpstudents or young leaders or
whoever at any age understandthe balance between cleaning up
(01:51):
and growing up.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
So that's kind of where we went.
In a sense, it's so thatcleaning up and growing up so
that we're in the best possibleplace we can be, you know,
developmentally, energetically,when we're serving others, right
.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
And this is back to your favorite phrase of mine,
although I'm sure I heard itelsewhere too but leaders create
the weather, although I'm sureI heard it elsewhere too but
leaders create the weather, andit's just a good metaphor for
(02:44):
saying that.
No matter what context we arein and this is one of the notes
I had made reading through thetranscript from Amal and Berndt
we are always following in somecontext.
Even if you're the CEO of alarge board, you have a large
organization, you have a boardto report to or shareholders to
report to, you have governmentregulatory things, you have
market.
So you're not leading all those, but you are leading what
you're responsible for, yes,what you're responsible for, yes
, and middle managers areleading their teams, the people
(03:10):
they're responsible for, butthey're also following their
bosses, their contacts, theirpeers.
But on a much more micro leveland this is something that I
believe I'm all brought up inthat conversation it's not just
about position, it's aboutbehavior in the moment.
(03:31):
So the Center for CreativeLeadership's DAC model you know
the direction bring somealignment to things and get
disparate points of view to seea little bit clearer or get
(03:51):
people engaged and committed.
That's an act of leadership,okay, so that also happens
within oneself and it startsthere.
And it starts there.
So how do we, for instance,break down self-mastery,
self-leadership?
Yeah Well, it involves ourthinking and our behaviors.
(04:14):
It's informed by our values,yes, also informed by our biases
(04:39):
.
Yes, oh yeah, size enough thatI could focus on it for a while
and I'll use that just as apreview to enter into this
domain of how do we use acombination of dynamic skill
theory Kurt Fisher, mike Mascolo, theo Dawson, others have
(05:02):
really understood which, to me,in its essence, kurt Fisher's
genius was taking Piaget'sunderstanding of how does our
epistemology grow to take inmore and more of the world, of
how we know, and combine thatwith behaviorism, saying how
(05:22):
does our performance getinfluenced by the context?
How does the environment aroundit and circumstances affect
what we're able to do?
And it's a dynamic combinationof those.
That is what we're looking at.
So, if we take that, and thenwhat is the natural way of
(05:43):
learning?
Little kids learn to walk byfailing a thousand times, yes,
and having this very rapidfeedback loop, and they see that
, okay, I fail and I learn, andI fail and I learn and
eventually, oh, then I'veinternalized that and I don't
(06:04):
think about it and one of thechallenges that we touched on
last time, and I think the termproprioception is helpful here.
Proprioception allows us tohave an immediate, felt sense
and feedback of what we intendand how our bodies move and how
(06:27):
we're moving in time and space,and that's very tangible.
But how do we haveproprioception of thought?
David bone, the, the physicistwho influenced people like peter
singing and bill isaacs in theorganizational learning field,
talked about this theproprioception of thought.
So we can notice it as it'sarising, just like we notice our
(06:51):
physical body moving as we move.
Yes, that's a different thingthat is much harder to be
interoceptively sensitive to.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
You're using $40,000 words here.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Well, Scott, when your stomach rumbles, you notice
it.
That's interoception you cannotice a state in your body.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
When I look at my daughter and say okay, just so
you know I'm at five.
Just just so you know, five outof ten, let's shift things up
here.
That's having propriocept.
Is that it?
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (07:32):
right you're now.
That's proprioception of yourstate okay so that you're
letting her know don't expectthe best performance from me in
this moment.
If you're looking to ask adifficult favor, maybe come back
later, right?
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Oh well, it yes.
Okay.
So my mind, my mind goes to howdoes it apply?
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Yeah, so part of what I would like to do is just lay
out a little bit of kind of somebuilding blocks or menu items,
please, ok, yes, yeah.
So one of the things that I'vecome to understand from dynamic
skill theory is it's a way ofunderstanding how do humans grow
(08:21):
and develop, and it starts withinfants learning reflexes.
Humans grow and develop and itstarts with infants learning
reflexes.
Okay, you learn to, you know,move your fingers and grasp
something, all these kind ofthings, and then those combine
in more and more complex waysuntil you can do sensory motor
actions.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Right, you can roll, you can start to crawl, you can
coordinate.
You know different things toget more and more complex, and a
good illustration somebody gaveonce is, for instance, you
maybe learn to brush your teeth.
You learn to put toothpaste on.
(08:59):
You learn at first to smear itall over your face, but
eventually you learn tocoordinate your cognitive
bandwidth to be able tointernalize those motions and
the feedback to to brush yourteeth properly.
Yes, and you learn to put yourpajamas on and, and at first you
put the bottoms on your headand you do, you know.
(09:20):
Put them on backwards andwhatever, but you do it enough
times and you learn them onbackwards and whatever, but you
do it enough times and you learnthat and it becomes routine and
eventually you maybe noticethat your parents are saying
this word bedtime and youeventually make the association
that, oh, all of these thingsbrushing my teeth, putting my
(09:41):
pajamas on, crawling into bed,doing you know whatever.
Brushing my teeth, putting mypajamas on, crawling into bed,
doing you know bedtime is arepresentation of a set of
sensory motor actions.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Yes, Okay, gotcha.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
So then you start building linguistic
representations of things in theworld.
Piaget talked about concreteoperations.
Right, you can do logic withthis, you can do arithmetic, you
can actually think in theseways, because you are now not
having to just do the thing, butyou can have a shorthand.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Right, and that shorthand allows you to do some
things.
Now I'll give a concreteexample.
At some point you can say, well, that's the truth, right, and
when you first use that as achild, you're referring to a
specific concrete thing beingthe truth.
(10:40):
Okay, now a little more complexformulation of that language is
saying well, that's not thetruth, because now you're
coordinating not with truth.
So you're actually making amore complex formulation.
Or maybe you say it's really thetruth and that's actually a
(11:01):
kind of system ofrepresentations that are put
together.
You know it's truth even then.
Or it's a kind of truth andyou're getting more nuance to it
, and so you see how theserepresentational things get more
developed.
But then you make a jump andyou say, oh, what is it to be
(11:24):
truthful?
And that is a move to what wecall abstractions.
You take a bunch ofrepresentations and make an
abstraction, because beingtruthful is a principle they're
going to apply to many concreteinstances.
And then, of course, you do thesame thing what's the whole
(11:47):
truth or what's an ugly truth?
And you combine two kind ofconcepts yep, a grain of truth.
So when you're in this range,you're now coordinating two
abstractions.
Okay, and that is where themajority of a norm of the adult
(12:08):
population is and teenage kidsget into this and this is kind
of normative high school andsometimes earlier in normative
high school and sometimesearlier.
What happens for some and yousee most of the discourse in
leadership and other places sayswhat happens when we don't just
(12:29):
have two things to coordinatebut, like family systems theory
or small group dynamics, youhave a bunch of things to
coordinate and actually alsohave relationships between them
going on and wow, suddenly it'sa lot more things going on.
But that skill depends uponhaving a robust set of
(12:53):
conceptual, abstract skills inthis earlier level, where you're
just building them and thencoordinating them.
So that's a quick overview ofdynamic skill theory.
It has a way of being able tomap at a very granular way what
are the building blocks and whatis the hierarchical sequence,
(13:18):
so to speak.
Yes, so if we talk, then, aboutself-master or self-leadership
and come back to what I wassaying before well, being aware
of our emotions okay, there'sour emotions.
We need to master those Well,we need to be aware of them and
we need to regulate them Well weeven need the emotional
(13:38):
literacy.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Like what are they?
Speaker 2 (13:40):
right.
So so and this goes granular,out and out and out.
So you've got to understandthem, you gotta notice the
effects of them, you gotta makedistinction between what are
adaptive and maladaptiveemotions and recognize them.
So these are all buildingblocks of self-leadership.
Now you can apply the samething to collaboration.
(14:04):
Yes, right, we're going to haveto work together to lead.
Right, you've got to get yourteam functioning well.
You've got to work nice withyour peers, so you want to
collaborate.
Well, there's a lot of thingsthat we can break this down into
smaller chunks, but what oftenhappens is leadership
(14:25):
development and training willsay okay, you got to collaborate
, so just go do it.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
It's all the things that are implicit yes, yes,
jonathan, I mean it's likesitting here, it's.
I hadn't thought of this waybefore, but let me know if I'm
on track with you.
It's like saying, oh, to be agreat basketball player, you
need to be able to hit threepointers, right, okay, we're
(14:53):
standing up there proud of thefact that, hey, you know what
You're going to have to hitthree pointers, and I don't know
enough about basketball to saylike four other things that you
probably need to do, but it's.
And then we wonder why.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
and then we wonder why people can't go and do it
right I mean that's that'swhat's so amazing to me so when
I read the uh talent code Ithink it was that book, dan
Coyle he talked about JohnWooden since you're talking
about basketball and what madeWooden so great as a coach was
(15:29):
that the way he coached was onprecise, granular feedback, on
minutiae that each individualperson was doing or not doing.
It was concrete, in-the-momentfeedback.
So, if we zoom back out, you'reon the right track so you can
take collaboration and say well,part of that is you've got to
(15:54):
start with yourself, right,you've got to have that in order
.
Then you got to be able tocommunicate, and there's a whole
world going on there about goodcommunication.
You got to be able toarticulate, explain, describe,
be clear, but you also have tobe able to listen.
Yes, you have to be able tolisten.
(16:15):
To learn is the phrase that I'vepicked up lately that, yeah,
it's not listen to reload, todefend, but it's listen to
actually hear and connect.
So then you need to seek othersperspectives and you had to
build trust for that.
You have to clarifyunderstanding.
You also need to be persuasive,and that means having good
(16:37):
argumentation.
You also have to work withbiases that you have, that
others have.
You have to seek perspectives.
So all of these can be brokendown and become the substrate or
the building blocks that couldbe taught as leadership
development.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Well, and so I'll push back gently because I agree
100% with everything you justsaid.
Now I have a busy executive infront of me.
I mean it gets to a point whereit feels unrealistic.
I'm sure people listening feellike well, when would I ever
(17:17):
have that time?
Who's even made sense of all ofthese subtopics that I'm going
to have to master?
So how do you think about that?
Because I know you'repassionate about this topic,
like scaling, but I keep hearingthe phrase and you've heard me
use it before on the podcasttime starved.
When do people have to learnall of these things?
(17:42):
I mean, it's tens of thousandsof things that probably someone
would have to have command of tobe successful.
So then it just feels a littlebit overwhelming, right?
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Yeah, so two things.
One is we were talking aboutwhat would we do to educate
young people in leadershipcourses in college.
What would we teach them tohelp them have the wisdom
related skills to learn fromtheir experience over time?
Yes, and I think that that'swhat I would point out, you can
(18:15):
use these things to help do that.
Yes, for the time for thepeople who are already in the
middle of everything, yes, whoare time-starved.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
I'm with them every day.
Right, every day, that's right.
If you get them into like ahalf hour or an hour or a half
day session, shit's just addingup.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
And of course, it always starts with the
counterintuitive move.
So when I've done programs likethat, I would generally use a
little video clip that I put onYouTube from David White, and
he's using David Wagoner's poemlost, the salish indian teaching
(19:01):
story.
Young kids come to an elder andsay what do I do when I'm lost
in this climax cedar forest?
Or you can't see any landmarksor anything and you know I I
don't have it in front of me,but it's like stand still, the
forest around you is not lost,it knows where you are.
You have to stand still and letit find you.
(19:25):
Mm-hmm.
So this is the first move forthe time starved executive.
It's always like the momentumof the feeling of being time
starved in itself is aninterpretation of events.
Yes, so how do you get on thebalcony and regulate that Notice
?
Wow, I'm feeling pressured.
(19:46):
I feel like my response tobeing pressured needs to be go
faster and go harder.
Yeah, hmm, is there another way?
Yeah, and that, to me, is theopening to say okay, stop and
just breathe.
Yeah, the world is not going tocollapse if you take a breath
for 10 seconds and allow becausethere is a lot of research too,
(20:10):
too if you take two or threedeep breaths.
It does stuff to the brain.
It calms you down, yeah.
And then you have moreresources to manage and regulate
and not be subject to theautomatic patterns and habits
that drive you down against thebrick wall endlessly, yes, and
(20:31):
get you into these situations.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Well, and the executives, I think all day long
are being seduced into that.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Oh, all day long.
It's back to part of thisparadigm of our whole society
and education and productivityand effectiveness.
But productivity andeffectiveness are downstream
symptoms of moments of influence, moments of interventions that
(21:01):
are high leverage, that generatethose downstream benefits.
So what I think is, if you thenstop and recognize okay, I'm in
the middle of everything, whatdo I do?
Well, stand still, okay.
Oh, I bet there is some lessonI can learn right now, in this
(21:27):
moment what could I notice aboutwhat's not working and what
I've tried and what could I trydifferent?
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
And then it's not about building out this map of a
thousand skills that I've gotto master and build up, because
inevitably you already have alot of these.
They are very human and youdon't always know.
So I'm all made up, it's a badquestion, jonathan, I mean.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
So that question is like a E equals MC squared
Underneath E equals MC squaredare just I don't know infinite
number of things.
I don't know, but you know.
So I think what I'm sointerested in and why I love
this conversation with you is,you know, I think there's and I
(22:28):
imagine you could do it what arethe eight questions that are
going to help you navigate?
What you need to navigate?
How do we get our thinking andthe title is I had a guest on
(23:00):
and he just talked about, likethe people he's working with is
that there's so much noise outthere in the sphere podcasts,
and this podcast has been a partof that noise, because my own
thinking isn't clean, I'm notcommunicating it to others in a
clean way and so it's justconfusing.
It's just more noise a lot ofthe time.
And how do we get our thinkingso clean that we cut through
that noise and be of service,like literally right now, of
(23:22):
service to these individuals andthat right?
There is one of those questionsin my mind.
Push back if you disagree.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
No, and this is why I said that the primary thing is
how do we move from a contentlist of things to attend to to a
principled process?
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
And so if we were to create steps in the process, the
first is stand still.
You know, breathe, stand stilland that will reduce some of the
noise.
Yeah, right, just doing that.
Then it say, okay, I'm going toapply this principle, that I've
been doing things on a certainbasis.
(24:01):
Why did I do them?
What worked, what didn't work?
An after action review yeah, ifit's a 30 second thing, no
problem.
And what we're going to say thenis that look around you.
Oh, where you got off on thisis where I said amal had pointed
(24:22):
to that people have thesethings in them in some way, and
what we want to do is trust that.
People have foundational skillsbut they're confused by the
noise, distracted by it, so theydon't always trust or have
confidence in those things, orthey've had modeling that
(24:43):
doesn't allow them to deploythat.
So, no, you should do thesethings.
Yeah, so it is a little bit oftrusting in what.
(25:19):
Where you're at and lookingthey hear them, is loaded by
their experience, and thecommunication gap can be
enormous and sometimes it canoverlap.
So what?
How do we balance out better?
We need to give some conceptsand some things, but how do we
balance that better with process.
So what we're experimentingwith in the kind of training
(25:39):
we're trying to scale is what Isay is more of pointing out
instructions.
So what we start with is saywhat triggers you?
Okay, just start noticing whenyou're getting triggered and for
two weeks just notice yourselfgetting triggered.
Yeah, then for two weeks justnotice what happens when you get
(26:00):
triggered.
Yeah, and it's like what,what's physiologically going on
in your body?
What kind of felt senses orwhat kind of emotions do you
make of that?
What are the thinking patterns?
Are you ruminating, are youcatastrophizing?
Are you making up storiesjustifying whatever?
Just notice those things andkind of map them.
Then you're learning from yourexperience, at your language,
(26:25):
your level.
Then we do kind of like webuilt this somewhat off of
immunity to change.
Say, say, the reason you gottriggered is something was
threatened.
Ok, so that's something thatwas threatened.
How can you give a name to it?
There's probably a beliefassociated with it and there's
probably a fear that somethingis at risk here, is at risk here
(26:53):
.
Can you name that and make anobject of it?
So get a little bit of distanceso that then all that that
you've mapped out, you can sayhow can I take it and move it to
the side and sit in thedriver's seat now, without that
automatic habituated responseacting you know people talk
about this in a thousanddifferent ways just move into
(27:15):
that gap and sit down and saywhat else could be going on,
what else could I do, where elsedo I want to go?
And do it at your scale, yourlevel, your pace and habituate
that, yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
And this is another one of those knowing doing gaps.
That back to the paper.
That kind of sparked thisconversation in some ways.
But I had a physician say to mefour months ago hey, before you
eat lunch because I can overeat, right, I want to feel satiated
(27:53):
.
They'll say, drink a glass ofwater.
And I'll say, oh yeah, thatmakes perfect sense.
I'm going to drink a glass ofwater.
Well, jonathan, 99% of the timeI forget.
I don't have a hack to helpchange that neural pathway in my
mind.
So, then you get into, like someBJ Fogg or some James Clear,
(28:16):
atomic habits or tiny habits,yeah, where literally we have to
break, we have to create a hackLike what am I going to do?
Like, maybe it's on my to-dolist in the morning.
It says drink water before.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Well, so how much pain do you so while I drink?
Uh, I get hungry in the morning, but I'm trying not to eat so
much in the morning and I'llhave a glass of water with
electrolytes in it and that Inotice.
Oh, I'm not hungry now and soit works what your doctor is
telling you and I literallyforget.
I know.
(28:49):
So part of why we don't payattention and forget is because
it's not emotionally painful orsalient enough for us.
Yeah, right, you've got to feelthe pain to be motivated and
you've got to feel the dopaminehit that hey, oh, I'm getting
something from this.
You know something's happening,and so this is why, in the way
(29:13):
we're designing things to tryand close the knowing doing gap,
we're trying to use whattriggers you, because that's
important to you.
You know you care about that.
It's how Keegan and Leahy didthe seven languages.
You know it wasn't the immunityto change.
Four columns, seven languages.
you know it wasn't the immunityto change for columns they
(29:35):
started out with nbc nagging,bitching, complaining, yeah, and
won't wound people down intosaying you're nagging about
those things because you careabout something.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Now voice what you care about yeah, well, okay,
jonathan, we have to wind downour time.
Here we are, so put a button inthis conversation now.
We're going to have to winddown our time.
Here we are, so put a button inthis conversation now and we're
going to do a third.
So, listeners, jonathan justwent.
Oh no, no, this is critical.
(30:06):
This is so important because Ithink we're getting to some core
things here.
But would you put a button inthis conversation?
What do you think and I don'teven know if that's a real
phrase put a button in it.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
Well, wrap it up in a book you want me to you know,
do what's the practical wisdom,so you don't have to do your
reflection.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
I don't want to think you're making my brain hurt.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
You know, but part, and I get why it hurts, because
I've spent decades learning frompeople like Keegan and people
like Theo Dawson and MikeMascolo and others Suzanne
Cook-Greiter you know where Igot to learn, not just from
reading, but from hanging outand being able to absorb in a
richer way the nuance of theirbeing in relation to that body
(30:52):
of knowledge, and it's vast andit's a lot to take in.
And I think it's the job ofthose of us trying to close the
knowing-doing gap, to be theeditors of all of that, to
produce something that peoplecan access.
It's like you say it's clean,it's clear, it's streamlined,
(31:12):
and they say, wow, I getsomething from this, it's
working, yes, yes and I think toget there.
We're laying out what.
What do we know?
For instance, I didn't eventouch on all the stuff about
neuroscience, about how thepredictive brain and feedback
models and how we metaregulate.
That is what we're talkingabout as well.
(31:33):
So there's lots of sciencebehind it, but the end user
doesn't want to know the science.
They just want to say does itwork and what do I?
Speaker 1 (31:41):
do yes and and again.
Like I said in our firstconversation, we come up with
the suzuki method and go and andreally really begin to truly
experiment and I don't mean thatin a willy-nilly way, but we
truly see if we can be ofservice.
Because I think again a lot ofthese conversations and I like
(32:02):
your framing of what is ofservice when someone's a youth,
what is of service whensomeone's in college, what's
service if I have an executiveright now at 44?
You know that amy elizabeth foxconversation where she's like,
look, I want them to beperformance ready.
Well, okay, shit, you're in it.
How do we help you right now,in this moment, be as successful
(32:24):
as you can?
Speaker 2 (32:25):
be right, and that's how do we help them clean up so
they're not weighed down bybaggage and therefore can't be
ready to perform because theirresources aren't available, and
how do we give them resources?
Speaker 1 (32:38):
Yes, and that might be, hey, the question you just
posed, like literally 15 minutesago, like questions like that
as a flotation device to helpthem.
Or it might be therecommendation of do you have a
therapist or a coach that'sgoing to help you make sense of
what's swirling on around you?
I mean, I'm really interestedright now in some of those
(32:59):
actionable ways that, giveneverything we know, I had an
oral surgeon standing in frontof me who was taking over a
practice and he was scared.
Great, oral surgeon knowsnothing about leadership.
So he said what do I need to do?
And and I said you know what?
Build relationships for thenext three months.
Get to know your team that'sprobably the best place Learn
(33:22):
from them and buildrelationships and then let's
communicate, let's talk, butthat's a great and that's the
type of knowledge that we needto be able to share with another
human standing across from uswho's hurting.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
But your example is perfect because he's in the
middle of everything, yes, andhe is learning from the
curriculum.
It's right in front of thepeople there can teach him Yep,
yep, so Oof.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
Okay, till next time, scott.
Okay, thank you, sir.
I appreciate it, as always,jonathan take care scott.
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