June 11, 2025 • 35 mins
Harold (Trey) Carlson has served as chief of staff for NASA’s John F. Kennedy Space Center in Florida since August 2022. In this role, Carlson is responsible for day-to-day operations at Kennedy, helping shape the center's strategic direction while overseeing various policies and initiatives.
Before assuming his current role, Carlson served five years as the Kennedy Space Center legislative affairs manager. He directed KSC’s legislative agenda, interfacing with Congress and the State of Florida legislature and advocating for NASA’s exploration and science mission requirements and Kennedy’s multi-user spaceport needs.
During his tenure as legislative affairs manager, Carlson served several months as NASA’s acting deputy associate administrator for the Office of Legislative and Intergovernmental Affairs (OLIA) and eight months as the acting director for Legislative Liaison Division within OLIA.
Previously, he led the development and execution of Kennedy’s master plan that transformed the center from a single-use, government-operated federal facility to a multi-user spaceport providing both government and commercial launch operations.
Carlson is a former U.S. Navy submariner and holds a bachelor’s degree in urban studies and planning from the University of California at San Diego, and a Master of Science degree in public policy and management from the Heinz School at Carnegie Mellon University.
A Quote From This Episode
- "It’s the people element that is the most important—whether you’re making yeast rolls or launching rockets.”
- “I’ve never thought, ‘Why did I do this?’ after investing time in a relationship.”
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
- Podcast: Jordan Peterson
- Podcast: President’s Daily Brief
- TED: Ian Bremmer’s 2025 outlook
About The International Leadership Association (ILA)
- The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals interested in studying, practicing, and teaching leadership. Plan for Prague - October 15-18, 2025!
About Scott J. Allen
- Website
- Weekly Newsletter: Practical Wisdom for Leaders
- Blog
My Approach to Hosting
- The views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are views to consider, and I hope they help you clarify your perspective. Nothing can replace your reflection, research, and exploration of the topic.
♻️ Please share with others and follow/subscribe to the podcast!
⭐️ Please leave a review on Apple, Spotify, or your platform of choice.
➡️ Follow me on LinkedIn for more on leadership, communication, and tech.
📜 Subscribe to my weekly newsletter featuring four hand-picked articles.
🌎 You can learn more about my work on my Website.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Scott Allen (00:00):
Okay, everybody, welcome to Practical Wisdom for
Leaders.
Thank you so much for checkingin wherever you are in the world
.
Today, we're going to go out ofthis world a little bit and I'm
honored to have Trey Carlson.
He has served as Chief of Stafffor NASA's John F Kennedy Space
Center in Florida since August2022.
In this role, carlson isresponsible for day-to-day
(00:22):
operations at Kennedy, helpingshape the strategic direction of
the center while overseeingvarious policies and initiatives
.
Prior to assuming his currentrole, carlson served for five
years as the Kennedy SpaceCenter's legislative affairs
manager.
He directed KSC's legislativeagenda, interfacing with
Congress and with the state ofFlorida legislature, as well as
(00:44):
advocating for NASA'sexploration and science mission
requirements and Kennedy'smulti-user spaceport needs.
Carlson is a former US Navysubmariner and holds a
bachelor's degree in urbanstudies and planning from the
University of California at SanDiego and a master's of science
degree in public policy andmanagement from the Heinz School
at Carnegie Mellon University.
(01:05):
Carlson and his wife, kathleen,have been married for 28 years
and they reside in SatelliteBeach, florida.
Sir, what's not on your biothat people need to know about
you?
And second, thank you so muchfor being here.
Trey Carlson (01:19):
Oh well, it's great to be here.
Thank you so much for having me.
You read all the sparkly partsof my bio.
You know, when I joined theNavy and I was on the submarine,
I was in the elite nuclearpower program and got kicked out
of that program because Icouldn't meet the needs.
And then I became a cook on thesubmarine, which nothing wrong
with being a cook.
(01:40):
My wife's a cook, she loves tocook.
But you know, one wasconsidered the highest tier on
submarines and the cook wasdefinitely not the highest tier,
it was pretty near the bottomand so that was like a big.
Scott Allen (01:50):
I interfaced with a gentleman named Jerry Blesch
and he was the captain of theUSS Wisconsin in Gulf War I and
(02:11):
it was hilarious because hewould always tell this story.
He would say if you want tofind out what's going on in the
organization on your ship, whodo you talk with?
And I would say, I don't know.
You're number two.
And he'd say no, you go to thenight bakery chef.
That's the person who knowseverything.
Trey Carlson (02:28):
He's absolutely correct.
I was the night baker on thesub.
We basically had two shifts, 12hour shifts that we served, and
so for one of my patrols I wasthe night baker.
And let me tell you what you'reeverybody's best friend.
You know, I can't go to thestore.
What was the only place to eatis in my kitchen and it wasn't
(02:48):
that big, and so the captain andeverybody else on the crew
would come through and and thepeople that treated me well, I'd
come in and I, hey, you want ahot roll, I just.
And the people that didn't,they didn't.
And I will say, out ofeverything I've done with school
and I'm grateful for theschooling I went to and
everything but probably one ofthe things I rely on most in my
day job today as chief of staffis probably what I learned in
(03:10):
that galley kitchen, even thoughat the time I was embarrassed
that I was there.
Those skill sets of workingwith the director, the commander
commanding a United States shipof war as well as anybody else,
and being able to interact withthem.
That really helped set me up, Ithink, ultimately for the job
I'm in now.
Scott Allen (03:28):
Well, that's a graduate degree in human
behavior.
Is what that looks like?
Trey Carlson (03:33):
Right, when you're 150 feet below the surface,
there are tensions that come up.
Yes, yes, sir, absolutely.
Scott Allen (03:40):
Trey, I am so excited for this conversation
because you are actively leadingpeople each and every day and,
of course, I appreciate justkind of starting out with hey.
This is where I started.
You are in this reallywonderful and important position
now, but we all start somewhereand so I appreciated that story
for sure.
The lessons we can learn fromwhere we come from, I think
(04:01):
that's also really, reallyimportant.
But you know, as you're leading, day in, day out, you're doing
the work.
What are some things and that'swhere I'd love to take the
conversation is what are somethings that kind of are top of
mind for you as you lead thisvery, very complex organization,
high stakes.
So what are some things thatcome to mind?
Trey Carlson (04:20):
Our core values are safety, integrity, teamwork
and excellence.
So, an organization like NASA,an organization like Kennedy, an
operational space flight center, safety is obviously number one
.
But we've got some amazingpeople here who are looking at
to make sure that we'reprotecting ourselves, we're
protecting our equipment, but,like with any other
(04:42):
organizations, whether you know,if you're like I was building
and making yeast rolls on asubmarine or now launching
rockets, you know, at a cadenceof sometimes two, three times a
week you know it's the people,it's the people element that is
the most important.
You know I've got about half adozen direct reports who I sign.
(05:03):
You know their time card andeverything like dozen direct
reports who I sign, you knowtheir time card and everything
like that.
But across the organization myboss, the director, we've got 17
or 18 different directoratesout here, people running large
sub-organizations, as well asour commercial partners, our
state partners.
It's not for the six peoplewhose paycheck I sign how I get
(05:24):
my job done.
It's my relationships havingfrank discussions with and just
being able to talk to all thesedifferent folks from within the
organization, outside of theorganization, on property, that
really helps, I'd say, keep mein the know.
And I know I've mentioned acouple of times that submarine
(05:45):
work.
But even before that, when Iwas in the legislative role, my
job was to know about this mucheverywhere, to know just a
little bit about who I get intouch with.
And what I didn't realize atthe time was those relationships
of knowing who to go to ask aquestion were helping make me in
a position that now where Istill know all the answers, of
(06:06):
course, but what I do know is Ihave people I can talk to, who I
really respect and who I knoware going to give me the honest
truth.
And it's ironic moving into thisjob I've been on here about 20
years.
So moving into this job when Itook on the chief of staff role
and I'm very grateful got a niceoffice, a nice view.
At first I had a lot of myfriends or people I've
(06:27):
interacted with for years feltlike, well, I can't interrupt
you now and I'm like no, that'swhy I'm here is because of the
fact I have these relationshipsor everything that we've done
together.
So you know, I'm still the sameperson I've always been and in
fact I need our relationshipeven more now to help execute
the mission of what we're tryingto do.
(06:47):
And you can't dial back or belike, hey, do I have to go
through all these checks andbalances just to get on your
calendar?
No, we've been texting eachother for 10 years.
Scott Allen (06:57):
Okay, let's go in a little bit on the relationships
piece, because I think,especially in today's culture in
the work space, I keep kind ofhearing the phrase time starved,
that at times we can be timestarved, and so protecting that
time to really focus in onrelationships, because I
(07:18):
couldn't agree with you more.
There's a famous leadershipscholar, especially in student
affairs.
Her name is Susan Komovas.
She says it's all aboutrelationships.
It's about having thoseindividuals in your sphere who
will tell you exactly, even ifit's not great news, but then
also those relationships withindividuals who can connect you
to the answer.
(07:39):
So how do you think aboutcarving out that time to still
prioritize that work?
One thing you just said gave mea clue.
Like look, no, you don't needto go through seven layers, send
me a text and we'll make ithappen.
But how do you prioritize thatwork of relationships when
everything else is kind ofcoming at you?
Does that make sense?
Trey Carlson (07:57):
It does make sense and I'm not sure if I do it
well.
It's constant.
I'm trying to be aware of it.
I think a lot of times becauseof the volume of work that's
going on.
You know I need the downtime.
You know I need time with mywife or whatever like that.
But a lot of organizations outhere they have happy hours on a
regular basis.
I'll be like, okay, once amonth.
I need to make sure I swing byand I do want to do it, but you
(08:18):
get in the car and you're onyour way home and I've got my
music to decompress or whateverto get home.
So I could, you know, I thinkthat's it.
I think just recognizing justhow closely I need that as well,
because in some ways it's ahassle to think about making
that relationship a priority.
But then when you get there,I've never thought, oh, why did
I do this?
In fact, every time when I dospend time, I think why am I
(08:41):
waiting so long to do this?
I don't think I've ever thoughtthis is taking too much time.
Scott Allen (08:50):
I love how you're thinking about that, because I
have this article in my head andit's kind of the hidden task
list of leaders.
These are those things that areon the task list, or should be
on the task list, but oftentimesget taken over by a whole bunch
of other things like justsimply two or three notes a week
to say thank you I noticed it,that was awesome.
A quick email it should be onthe task list, but oftentimes
it's not.
(09:11):
And again, that's a part ofthat kind of relationship piece.
So prioritizing relationshipsis a key piece of how you think
about the work.
What else is on your radar whenit comes to okay, how do I do
this work of leading effectively?
What are some other things thatare important for you in your
model?
Trey Carlson (09:29):
So this role was sort of refashioned.
The director here took overabout eight months or so before
I became her chief of staff, andso she was deputy for many
years before she became thedirector and she had a different
vision of the way she wanted.
I mean, my role is similar.
When you think of I'd say whenyou think of the term chief of
(09:49):
staff, it's not necessarily aterm in title, it's what you
imagine when you hear the termchief of staff.
But there was no template forme per se, right, which
ironically bothered me at first,and I don't like templates, but
I think it bothered me that Ialmost felt like I had too much,
like okay, how do I do this?
So I was able to get a coachshortly after getting this job.
(10:11):
It was coincidence that I wasable to get one.
It wasn't because I had the job, I went and got one, but the
timing was perfect and the onething that we worked on was
really kind of looking at whatmy role is, who I am myself,
what is my intrinsic value ofmyself, and then the
organization Looking at it aslike a Venn diagram of really
helping me understand.
(10:32):
I work with amazing people atNASA and the director, her
deputy, her associate directors.
I couldn't ask for betterpeople to work with.
Sometimes people get the jobthey want, but then all of a
sudden you're working with thesejerks.
You know, yeah, yeah, yeah, andI'm very blessed I'm not in
that position.
So I think kind of finding,okay, what was the strength I
was bringing to that team.
(10:53):
You know, working with my coachreally helped me kind of figure
that out, because I think atfirst you're tempted to kind of
model some of what you're seeingaround you.
They were not bringing me uphere because they needed to
launch rockets more frequentlyand I had that ability of
knowing how the systems work.
Because, no, that's not what Idid.
You know, although I'm alooflyaware of that and I'm engaged in
(11:14):
those conversations, that wasnot the value I was bringing.
So it's kind of a long answerto a short question, but what
really helped me sort of performmy role better was really
understanding the value that Ibrought, the additional value I
brought to the team, and itwasn't to echo another value or
to take on another role that wasalready being done in a good
(11:37):
path, a good manner.
Scott Allen (11:39):
There's a couple of things in there that I just
absolutely love, and so one ofthem is that I reached out to a
coach.
I think leaders are learners Idon't know remember who said
that and so someone else saidthat.
That is not my quote, butleaders are learners, and so I
think having a coach andreaching out to a coach is
(12:00):
brilliant because, again, thework is so complex.
Who are some of your thinkingpartners?
Who are the individuals you canturn to and say look, I'm
getting triggered by this orthis is going on, because if you
just think about just thenatural element of humans
existing together, that's noteasy.
And again, when safety is yournumber one priority and, of
(12:23):
course, there's those othervalues as well that you had
mentioned, but you're nottalking just like.
This is high stakes stuff.
This is not.
I put cheese on your burger,Sorry.
These are important, highstakes roles, and so having that
coach and having that thinkingpartner, critical, awesome, yes,
love it.
And then the fact that you andyour coach started to explore
(12:46):
and kind of move into that spaceof self-awareness of what are
my strengths, what is it that Ibring to this role, and that
self-exploration, because I'msure you've learned a ton about
yourself as this has beenelevated on you.
As the role has elevated,you're being confronted now with
all kinds of new situations.
It's kind of like parenting.
(13:07):
You know, when it was just meand my wife, we were cool, but
then, when our son wasintroduced, that's a new type of
learning for us as a couple,but also for me as a human, as a
parent, and now me as a parentof teenagers.
I'm learning in totally newways there.
But as the role elevates,there's all these new
opportunities to learn aboutyourself.
(13:28):
So I love that I got a coachand I'm systematizing that
introspection, thatself-awareness.
I don't know does that resonatewhat I just said?
Trey Carlson (13:40):
Yeah, absolutely.
I love the fact.
In fact, before you said it, Iwas just thinking about being a
parent.
And my kids are older now,they're in their early to mid
twenties, and at one point Idon't know why I thought this,
but I thought, oh, when they getover 18 or when they get
through school, like everythingwas going to be done, but I
don't even think I've even begunparenting yet.
(14:01):
Like everything was going to bedone, but I don't even think
I've even begun parenting yet.
You know like and my kids aregreat, everybody's kids are the
best.
So I think even thoserelationships I have with them
and seeing them change andseeing them become who they are
has helped me in my role here ofunderstanding how I've changed,
how I need to change the way Igo about things.
Probably half a dozen years agoor so, I was a little frustrated
(14:22):
out here at work and I wasfeeling like I wasn't getting
the advancement I deserved orpeople weren't noticing or
whatever you know.
And I went through a period oftime I don't know maybe six
months or so that I was tryingto think what I want to do and
then I don't remember how or why, but I decided you know what?
You just stop looking atyourself and look at others.
(14:49):
And so I really earnestlystarted focusing on my peers and
even people that were juniorgraded at me and thinking about
how can I help them with theircareer or how can I help when I
first started at NASA?
I didn't pursue mentoring asmuch back then I kind of wish I
would in hindsight and so I sortof went out of my way about
half a dozen years ago and itwasn't like I went to someone
and said I'm going to be yourmentor.
Scott Allen (15:09):
That would be awesome, though.
Do you need a mentor?
I'm right here.
Trey Carlson (15:11):
I know Right right , but it became really
gratifying to see these peoplelike grow and both their
personal as well as theirprofessional life, and I know I
had a part.
I'm not saying they owe it allto me but I also felt like it
was very gratifying to see someof them getting married, having
kids, taking on moreresponsibility at work or at
(15:34):
home, and it's been really good,and so I think about that as
like when I moved into and nowall of a sudden I'm working on
the senior management team.
Scott Allen (15:42):
Yeah, right.
Trey Carlson (15:43):
And these people are no longer the people that I
revered and looked up to, as,all of a sudden, I was like,
okay, they're people just likeme, our flawed individuals
trying to do the best, pullforward on making what we
provide better.
Yeah, I do think it had alittle bit to do, though, with
kids, kind of that transitionthe way, looking at my kids
being like, okay, if I only havekids till 18, then I'm done
(16:06):
what I do with this vacuum in mylife.
Scott Allen (16:08):
What comes out for me right there in a really nice
way is that you're investing inrelationships, you're investing
in others, you're again buildingrelationships with different
individuals in the organizationand you're other-oriented.
And again that's critical whenit comes to leadership, because
I think we can be so focused onwhat's happening to us and
(16:30):
what's coming to us.
That ability to look at othersin the organization, especially
some of those younger folks,that had to have been so
meaningful that someone in yourrole, in your position, in your
authority, tenure whatever wordwe want to say is investing in
them.
I had an individual at theuniversity that I used to be at.
(16:50):
I had just started and he was avice president and president in
the provost's office and hesaid, hey, let's go to lunch,
and just the fact that he tookthat time meant so much to me as
someone who's a junior in theorganization, and I'm sure he
learned as well.
He probably gained someperspective and better
(17:12):
understood someone's experienceat a different level in the
organization.
But we both had this passionfor film and so we would go see
films together, we would havelunch periodically.
But that other orientation inhim I always appreciated that I
wasn't just someone new, I wassomeone potentially to build a
relationship with and invest insome ways, and Jim was just.
(17:32):
He was incredible, and so Ivery much appreciate that story.
Trey Carlson (17:38):
Yeah, I eat lunch by myself, maybe half the time.
Most of the time I'm eatinglunch, you know, and I know a
lot of people during lunch, itwould be very easy and sometimes
to go in the office, close thedoor and really catch up.
Let's face it, that's amiserable way to live and I've
done it.
You know you're on yourcomputer eating, you get done
and you like drip food all overyour keyboard, whatever, and I
(17:59):
do that.
But a lot of times I try toprobably 50% of the time if I'm
eating lunch, just have peoplecome up and I'll be like you got
to sit in my office but we'regoing to eat here.
It's a way that I've just keepup with people, you know, and
then, of course, you talk aboutthings, but then you've talked
about work things as well, youknow, and some people are very
private, possessive of theirlunchtime, which I get it.
(18:20):
That's just for me.
I just found okay, since mytime is so limited, I'm
definitely going to eat, and theworst is when we actually have
a meeting and I have to actuallyeat and they're all sitting
around my desk watching me eat.
But if you walk out and you getlike something in your tooth
for the past two hours, or not,you know, so Come on guys.
Scott Allen (18:39):
Let me know that that piece.
Trey Carlson (18:40):
I tooth for the past two hours, or not, you know
.
So, come on, guys, let me knowthat, that piece, I know right.
Scott Allen (18:42):
What else, anything else come to mind for you as
you think about your transitionto the role, as you think about
leadership.
What's another kind of Northstar for you as you?
I mean, I'm hearingrelationships, I'm hearing
self-awareness, I'm hearingreaching out for, for coaches.
Those are all kind of shiningthrough.
Anything else come to mind foryou as you think about the role.
Trey Carlson (19:03):
Yeah, one thing I did shortly after moving in this
role is so the federalgovernment-wide they do this
federal employee viewpointsurvey.
They survey all the federalgovernment every year and it's
like how are you feeling thecondition, work environment,
whatever and so NASA has beenlike the number one medium-sized
agency for the past seven oreight years and Kennedy is like
(19:26):
the number one center five orsix years in a row within NASA
of like our viewpoint survey.
So, we already feel veryconnected to the work because
hardware comes in and then wesee it launch.
But the one thing that you knowwhen I stepped in this role is
I felt like we needed morefocused time on just getting
together with our seniormanagement and discussing
(19:47):
strategy.
We would have offsites once ortwice a year, a couple of days
to kind of get away.
I really felt like we needed amore frequent.
So every other month actuallyonce a month we cancel our staff
meeting on Mondays and onemonth we'll do a leadership
thing for our senior managementteam a speaker or some sort of
and then the off month we'lltalk about strategy and whatever
(20:10):
that is like something thatwe're trying to pursue and I
found it's selfishly, it'shelped out.
My role First of all helped kindof get most of the leadership
team on the same page.
At least they're hearing aboutit more than twice a year at the
annual offsite or the biannualoffsite.
They're hearing about a littlemore frequent basis, about oh
yes, we're trying to get thisdone and then sometimes we even
(20:32):
make like a social at the end ofthat too.
But that's been extremelyhelpful in my role.
And you know people areresistant, some people don't
like doing that and that's fine.
You realize that quickly who itis.
But if it gets to the pointwhere it's less pomp and
circumstance, it just becomesmore of a who we are we're
talking about.
Hey, we see this happening,what do we think we should be
(20:54):
doing?
And these people, just like me,have very busy schedules, so
it's not like they have time tosit around and do this.
But that's been very helpfulfor me and it's been very
helpful for my boss, thedirector, as we're trying to set
the strategic direction of thecenter and get everybody in
alignment with each other.
Scott Allen (21:09):
Well, and that can be some of one of the most
challenging aspects ofleadership at times is aligning
the human beings right, gettingeveryone kind of oriented in the
same direction.
What are we doing here Exactly?
And so I love in that statementright there you've got we're
systematizing our learning.
Leaders are learners.
Are we learning aboutleadership and are we learning
(21:31):
about our own leadership?
There's a great quote, jonathanI'm sorry you're going to get
so tired of me saying this onthe podcast, but my friend,
jonathan Reams says leaderscreate the weather, and so I
love that quote.
So what are the weather patternswe're creating as a leadership
team?
And that's a critical question.
And there's another quote thatI love who you are is how you
(21:56):
lead, so who am I?
And that's an importantquestion, especially if others
are in your care back to thatself-awareness conversation,
that coaching conversation.
But I think you could take thatwho you are is how you lead to
another.
We're setting the weatherpatterns we are putting into
(22:22):
place, and that requires someintentionality.
You got to water that plant forit to live.
So, as you're prioritizing someof that time, not only to get
on the same page with some ofthe strategic initiatives, but
also from a how are we going todo this work?
What are we working on?
But how are we going to getwork done through others?
(22:42):
What are the weather patternswe're going to create?
Who we are is how we lead.
That's important.
You said something earlier,which another quote.
I'm just going to throw quotesout left and right.
All right, this is a really goodone too.
I do some work with anarchitecture firm in town, and
this was a group of highpotentials who'd kind of been
(23:03):
elevated, and a quote that cameout of that group was so this is
not mine, this is theirs, weare the they now.
Remember younger in your careerwhen you could look up and say
well, it's them, they haven't.
We are the they now and I justlove that.
So you prioritizing that timebecause you are the they now,
(23:25):
it's you.
And how are we doing this workand what weather patterns are we
putting into place and are weelevating our skills?
Very few people went to schoolfor leadership, but now we are
leaders.
Trey Carlson (23:39):
Right.
Scott Allen (23:40):
Wow, just critical.
Trey Carlson (23:42):
Yeah, we at our last offsite, I think late
September.
You know our most valuableresource is people, like
anywhere else, and everybodyknows where the stars are and
everybody wants the stars intheir organization, as they
should, and the last thing youwant to do is lose a star to
another organization.
You know they should, and thelast thing you want to do is
lose a star to anotherorganization, you know.
(24:03):
But we were talking about someintense times coming with work
that we see coming down the pipe, and we really needed
leadership and some folks andfor the first time ever, these
different organizations werewilling to talk about their star
players that could possibly goand work in another organization
to serve the greater good,which many of the directors in
the room were like wow, we'venever been in that position
(24:25):
before, and so I think a lot ofit had to do with.
I feel very blessed.
I think we're an organizationwhere we're trusting each other,
trying to work well,recognizing the volume of work,
and recognize that we got tobuild something that people want
and hopefully the people willwant to stay and if they don't,
you've put them in a good enoughposition where they can go
somewhere else.
So, my boss, I really give hera lot of credit for that, for
(24:47):
creating that environment tohave people that could do that.
Scott Allen (24:50):
Yep, and back to creating that environment.
The reason I love Jonathan'squote leaders create the weather
.
What's weather over time?
That's climate.
What's another word for climate?
Culture?
The weather patterns thatindividual and that team puts
into motion.
It has very real ramifications,very real ramifications for
(25:10):
organizations, and so I love it.
Trey, as we begin to kind ofwind down our time, anything
else come to mind for you thatyou want to cover?
Trey Carlson (25:18):
I've never met anybody that says I'm overpaid
for what I'm doing.
Maybe there are people outthere that are overpaid for what
they're doing.
I don't think I'm in that campand very few people.
But I do think a big portion ofwhat I do is finding people the
immense satisfaction and valueof what we're bringing, like the
greater mission, and I thinkdefinitely at NASA we feel that
(25:40):
connection not only to thescience, the exploration, but
the inspiration that we knowthat comes with our agency and
what we do here at Kennedy.
Scripture says, for much hasbeen given, much is required.
That was also in Spider-Man 2,depending on where you get your.
You know it was sort of amendeda little bit, but that's really
how I think I view my role.
(26:02):
My role in how I work andreally, hopefully, how our
organization works and how welead our folks is that they feel
like that we have their best atheart.
When I came up to the SenateDirector's Suite as the Chief of
Staff, I remember the first sixmonths.
I was blown away how much wetalked about many times a week
about putting the right personin the right place.
(26:24):
You know because it occurred tome after about five or six
months.
Oh yeah, I don't really doanything anymore.
I have other people that dothings right.
Scott Allen (26:33):
You know, in the orchestra you are conducting.
Trey Carlson (26:37):
And so having the right people in the right place
that really should be whatleadership is talking about all
the time, because certainly thecenter director is a building a
rocket in her garage or we needthe right people doing the right
things, and what I've enjoyedabout my job and what I like
about it is through therelationships and hopefully the
culture that we're able to kindof accomplish a mission through
(26:59):
that.
Scott Allen (26:59):
You know it makes me think of the Jim Collins.
You know the right people onthe bus and in the right seats.
It makes all the difference ifthat's the case, because you can
have a violin that's out oftune and that ruins the entire
orchestra in the performance.
And so, yes, kind of conductingand looking at that whole as a
(27:21):
leader and I loved your phrasein there I don't do stuff
anymore necessarily stuff, stuff, but you're conducting and
you're making sure everything ishappening so well as we wind
down our time and again, trey,thank you so very, very much for
your time today.
What's caught your attentionrecently?
It could have to do withleadership, it could have
(27:41):
nothing to do with leadership,but is there something you've
been streaming or listening toor reading, just consuming,
that's caught your attention,that listeners might be
interested in?
Trey Carlson (27:51):
The past couple of years I've really gotten into
podcasts.
I know they've been aroundforever, but not forever, but
the last 10 years or so.
But I have a 45-minute commuteto and from work.
There's a few things.
I listen to President's DailyBrief.
I listen to that which is moreinternational affairs,
everything that's happened onthat side.
It's hopefully a little less.
I don't think it's as muchpolitical.
(28:11):
I listen a lot to JordanPeterson and he's all over the
map.
But what's fascinating abouthere we are in January of 2025
is, I think, on a local,national and global, just things
are happening everywhere.
Maybe the news we just find outabout it more because we're
more connected, but just thechanges all over the place.
And I'm not just talking about,you know, the US president, I'm
(28:34):
talking about Canada and Mexico, the Middle East, europe.
It's interesting to see.
To bring it back to what thisis about Venezuela I was just
listening to that this morningAll of these leadership cycles
happening all over the place,all turmoil maybe not be the
right word, but definitelyupsetting the apple cart and
what that's going to happen,usually as a federal agency,
(28:56):
rolling into an election yearlike we just got to make it till
November and then we canbreathe easy.
But I think 2025 is going to bevery interesting and I'm hoping
it's not negative interesting.
I'm hoping that it'sinteresting getting people
engaged and hopefully feelingmore connected to their, to what
they do, to their families, totheir relationships and what's
important to them they do totheir families, to their
(29:18):
relationships and what'simportant to them.
Scott Allen (29:21):
Yeah, there's a gentleman I don't know if you've
come across him, ian Bremmer.
Have you ever come across IanBremmer for any reason?
Yes, yeah, okay, so yesterday Iwatched it was his thoughts on
2025.
It was just an interview.
It wasn't a TED talk althoughhe does have a fascinating TED
talk, which I'll put a link toin the show notes and he
basically just took theinterviewer on a tour of the
world.
Right, here's what's happeningin Mexico, here's what's
happening in Canada, here'swhat's going on in the Ukraine,
(29:43):
here's what's happening in theMiddle East, and he's just
whether or not you agree withhis predictions or his
assessments.
He's just very interesting tolisten to and I think you're
right.
The seismic shifts that arewhether it's geopolitical,
whether it's digitization,whether it's any number of other
ways we could have thatconversation around shifts five
(30:04):
generations in the workforce,gen Zs and millennials moving
into leadership roles there'sjust a lot of shifts, a lot of
shifts that impacts leadershipin a very real way, a hundred
percent.
Trey Carlson (30:16):
We grapple with that all the time about.
There is no template.
We've got folks in their earlytwenties that like, I want to be
on property, I want to be onsite every day, I want to see
what's going on.
And then we've got the reversepeople that are their entire
career.
That is like I never want tostep on property again, I'm
happy to sit, and everything inbetween.
So how do we manage in thatenvironment?
(30:36):
How do we lead?
Scott Allen (30:42):
Yes and yeah.
I imagine you have folks intheir seventies and I imagine
you have folks in their earlytwenties.
As you said, Some of thoseengineers don't want to quit.
They keep going.
Trey Carlson (30:47):
Right, we got people here that our last
accident as an agency in 2003,you know they were in diapers
then or certainly went around in9-11, you know.
So it is an amazing time tohave this volume of people out
working together and trying to.
So of course, it's going to belike a.
It's going to be like aThanksgiving meal.
It's just a lot.
(31:07):
Yeah, it's a lot.
You've got kids at the kidtable.
Sometimes I feel like I've beenat the kid table for 45 years
now.
I'm like simply adults, adults.
Scott Allen (31:17):
Well, Trey, thank you for the incredible work you
do.
Thank you for spending sometime with me today.
I really appreciate it and Ilook forward to connecting again
, hearing about your progress,your observations on doing this
work.
I often think of leadership asjust my personal mission.
How do we better prepare peopleto serve in these really
challenging roles?
(31:38):
Because they're not easy, andso it's always fun to connect
with folks doing that work andbetter understanding how you're
making sense of it.
You work for an incredibleagency that has changed history
and it's just so much fun tohave that conversation.
Trey Carlson (31:54):
Well, thanks, Scott.
This is enjoyable.
I've been looking forward tothis for several months now,
especially after the holidaysand everything.
I appreciate it.
I've enjoyed talking to you andsince I've become connected
with you, I've started listeningto your podcast as well.
Scott Allen (32:08):
Oh well, good, Thank you for listening.
Go launch a rocket or something.
Trey Carlson (32:13):
I got to get out of here.
Scott Allen (32:13):
Thanks, Okay relationships, learning and
(32:36):
creating the context where, as ateam, they can orient
themselves in a way they canlearn, develop and grow.
Ensure that they are marchingin unison, so the organization
is doing so as well.
Trey, thank you so much foryour incredible work.
Thanks to all of you forlistening.
(32:57):
Take care everyone.
Have a great day.
If you haven't done so, checkout the show notes.
There's a link to startthinking about Prague ILA,
prague 2025.
Take care everyone.
Bye-bye.
Okay, everybody, welcome to Practical Wisdom for
Leaders.
Thank you so much for checkingin wherever you are in the world
.
Today, we're going to go out ofthis world a little bit and I'm
honored to have Trey Carlson.
He has served as Chief of Stafffor NASA's John F Kennedy Space
Center in Florida since August2022.
In this role, carlson isresponsible for day-to-day
(00:22):
operations at Kennedy, helpingshape the strategic direction of
the center while overseeingvarious policies and initiatives
.
Prior to assuming his currentrole, carlson served for five
years as the Kennedy SpaceCenter's legislative affairs
manager.
He directed KSC's legislativeagenda, interfacing with
Congress and with the state ofFlorida legislature, as well as
(00:44):
advocating for NASA'sexploration and science mission
requirements and Kennedy'smulti-user spaceport needs.
Carlson is a former US Navysubmariner and holds a
bachelor's degree in urbanstudies and planning from the
University of California at SanDiego and a master's of science
degree in public policy andmanagement from the Heinz School
at Carnegie Mellon University.
(01:05):
Carlson and his wife, kathleen,have been married for 28 years
and they reside in SatelliteBeach, florida.
Sir, what's not on your biothat people need to know about
you?
And second, thank you so muchfor being here.
Trey Carlson (01:19):
Oh well, it's great to be here.
Thank you so much for having me.
You read all the sparkly partsof my bio.
You know, when I joined theNavy and I was on the submarine,
I was in the elite nuclearpower program and got kicked out
of that program because Icouldn't meet the needs.
And then I became a cook on thesubmarine, which nothing wrong
with being a cook.
(01:40):
My wife's a cook, she loves tocook.
But you know, one wasconsidered the highest tier on
submarines and the cook wasdefinitely not the highest tier,
it was pretty near the bottomand so that was like a big.
Scott Allen (01:50):
I interfaced with a gentleman named Jerry Blesch
and he was the captain of theUSS Wisconsin in Gulf War I and
(02:11):
it was hilarious because hewould always tell this story.
He would say if you want tofind out what's going on in the
organization on your ship, whodo you talk with?
And I would say, I don't know.
You're number two.
And he'd say no, you go to thenight bakery chef.
That's the person who knowseverything.
Trey Carlson (02:28):
He's absolutely correct.
I was the night baker on thesub.
We basically had two shifts, 12hour shifts that we served, and
so for one of my patrols I wasthe night baker.
And let me tell you what you'reeverybody's best friend.
You know, I can't go to thestore.
What was the only place to eatis in my kitchen and it wasn't
(02:48):
that big, and so the captain andeverybody else on the crew
would come through and and thepeople that treated me well, I'd
come in and I, hey, you want ahot roll, I just.
And the people that didn't,they didn't.
And I will say, out ofeverything I've done with school
and I'm grateful for theschooling I went to and
everything but probably one ofthe things I rely on most in my
day job today as chief of staffis probably what I learned in
(03:10):
that galley kitchen, even thoughat the time I was embarrassed
that I was there.
Those skill sets of workingwith the director, the commander
commanding a United States shipof war as well as anybody else,
and being able to interact withthem.
That really helped set me up, Ithink, ultimately for the job
I'm in now.
Scott Allen (03:28):
Well, that's a graduate degree in human
behavior.
Is what that looks like?
Trey Carlson (03:33):
Right, when you're 150 feet below the surface,
there are tensions that come up.
Yes, yes, sir, absolutely.
Scott Allen (03:40):
Trey, I am so excited for this conversation
because you are actively leadingpeople each and every day and,
of course, I appreciate justkind of starting out with hey.
This is where I started.
You are in this reallywonderful and important position
now, but we all start somewhereand so I appreciated that story
for sure.
The lessons we can learn fromwhere we come from, I think
(04:01):
that's also really, reallyimportant.
But you know, as you're leading, day in, day out, you're doing
the work.
What are some things and that'swhere I'd love to take the
conversation is what are somethings that kind of are top of
mind for you as you lead thisvery, very complex organization,
high stakes.
So what are some things thatcome to mind?
Trey Carlson (04:20):
Our core values are safety, integrity, teamwork
and excellence.
So, an organization like NASA,an organization like Kennedy, an
operational space flight center, safety is obviously number one
.
But we've got some amazingpeople here who are looking at
to make sure that we'reprotecting ourselves, we're
protecting our equipment, but,like with any other
(04:42):
organizations, whether you know,if you're like I was building
and making yeast rolls on asubmarine or now launching
rockets, you know, at a cadenceof sometimes two, three times a
week you know it's the people,it's the people element that is
the most important.
You know I've got about half adozen direct reports who I sign.
(05:03):
You know their time card andeverything like dozen direct
reports who I sign, you knowtheir time card and everything
like that.
But across the organization myboss, the director, we've got 17
or 18 different directoratesout here, people running large
sub-organizations, as well asour commercial partners, our
state partners.
It's not for the six peoplewhose paycheck I sign how I get
(05:24):
my job done.
It's my relationships havingfrank discussions with and just
being able to talk to all thesedifferent folks from within the
organization, outside of theorganization, on property, that
really helps, I'd say, keep mein the know.
And I know I've mentioned acouple of times that submarine
(05:45):
work.
But even before that, when Iwas in the legislative role, my
job was to know about this mucheverywhere, to know just a
little bit about who I get intouch with.
And what I didn't realize atthe time was those relationships
of knowing who to go to ask aquestion were helping make me in
a position that now where Istill know all the answers, of
(06:06):
course, but what I do know is Ihave people I can talk to, who I
really respect and who I knoware going to give me the honest
truth.
And it's ironic moving into thisjob I've been on here about 20
years.
So moving into this job when Itook on the chief of staff role
and I'm very grateful got a niceoffice, a nice view.
At first I had a lot of myfriends or people I've
(06:27):
interacted with for years feltlike, well, I can't interrupt
you now and I'm like no, that'swhy I'm here is because of the
fact I have these relationshipsor everything that we've done
together.
So you know, I'm still the sameperson I've always been and in
fact I need our relationshipeven more now to help execute
the mission of what we're tryingto do.
(06:47):
And you can't dial back or belike, hey, do I have to go
through all these checks andbalances just to get on your
calendar?
No, we've been texting eachother for 10 years.
Scott Allen (06:57):
Okay, let's go in a little bit on the relationships
piece, because I think,especially in today's culture in
the work space, I keep kind ofhearing the phrase time starved,
that at times we can be timestarved, and so protecting that
time to really focus in onrelationships, because I
(07:18):
couldn't agree with you more.
There's a famous leadershipscholar, especially in student
affairs.
Her name is Susan Komovas.
She says it's all aboutrelationships.
It's about having thoseindividuals in your sphere who
will tell you exactly, even ifit's not great news, but then
also those relationships withindividuals who can connect you
to the answer.
(07:39):
So how do you think aboutcarving out that time to still
prioritize that work?
One thing you just said gave mea clue.
Like look, no, you don't needto go through seven layers, send
me a text and we'll make ithappen.
But how do you prioritize thatwork of relationships when
everything else is kind ofcoming at you?
Does that make sense?
Trey Carlson (07:57):
It does make sense and I'm not sure if I do it
well.
It's constant.
I'm trying to be aware of it.
I think a lot of times becauseof the volume of work that's
going on.
You know I need the downtime.
You know I need time with mywife or whatever like that.
But a lot of organizations outhere they have happy hours on a
regular basis.
I'll be like, okay, once amonth.
I need to make sure I swing byand I do want to do it, but you
(08:18):
get in the car and you're onyour way home and I've got my
music to decompress or whateverto get home.
So I could, you know, I thinkthat's it.
I think just recognizing justhow closely I need that as well,
because in some ways it's ahassle to think about making
that relationship a priority.
But then when you get there,I've never thought, oh, why did
I do this?
In fact, every time when I dospend time, I think why am I
(08:41):
waiting so long to do this?
I don't think I've ever thoughtthis is taking too much time.
Scott Allen (08:50):
I love how you're thinking about that, because I
have this article in my head andit's kind of the hidden task
list of leaders.
These are those things that areon the task list, or should be
on the task list, but oftentimesget taken over by a whole bunch
of other things like justsimply two or three notes a week
to say thank you I noticed it,that was awesome.
A quick email it should be onthe task list, but oftentimes
it's not.
(09:11):
And again, that's a part ofthat kind of relationship piece.
So prioritizing relationshipsis a key piece of how you think
about the work.
What else is on your radar whenit comes to okay, how do I do
this work of leading effectively?
What are some other things thatare important for you in your
model?
Trey Carlson (09:29):
So this role was sort of refashioned.
The director here took overabout eight months or so before
I became her chief of staff, andso she was deputy for many
years before she became thedirector and she had a different
vision of the way she wanted.
I mean, my role is similar.
When you think of I'd say whenyou think of the term chief of
(09:49):
staff, it's not necessarily aterm in title, it's what you
imagine when you hear the termchief of staff.
But there was no template forme per se, right, which
ironically bothered me at first,and I don't like templates, but
I think it bothered me that Ialmost felt like I had too much,
like okay, how do I do this?
So I was able to get a coachshortly after getting this job.
(10:11):
It was coincidence that I wasable to get one.
It wasn't because I had the job, I went and got one, but the
timing was perfect and the onething that we worked on was
really kind of looking at whatmy role is, who I am myself,
what is my intrinsic value ofmyself, and then the
organization Looking at it aslike a Venn diagram of really
helping me understand.
(10:32):
I work with amazing people atNASA and the director, her
deputy, her associate directors.
I couldn't ask for betterpeople to work with.
Sometimes people get the jobthey want, but then all of a
sudden you're working with thesejerks.
You know, yeah, yeah, yeah, andI'm very blessed I'm not in
that position.
So I think kind of finding,okay, what was the strength I
was bringing to that team.
(10:53):
You know, working with my coachreally helped me kind of figure
that out, because I think atfirst you're tempted to kind of
model some of what you're seeingaround you.
They were not bringing me uphere because they needed to
launch rockets more frequentlyand I had that ability of
knowing how the systems work.
Because, no, that's not what Idid.
You know, although I'm alooflyaware of that and I'm engaged in
(11:14):
those conversations, that wasnot the value I was bringing.
So it's kind of a long answerto a short question, but what
really helped me sort of performmy role better was really
understanding the value that Ibrought, the additional value I
brought to the team, and itwasn't to echo another value or
to take on another role that wasalready being done in a good
(11:37):
path, a good manner.
Scott Allen (11:39):
There's a couple of things in there that I just
absolutely love, and so one ofthem is that I reached out to a
coach.
I think leaders are learners Idon't know remember who said
that and so someone else saidthat.
That is not my quote, butleaders are learners, and so I
think having a coach andreaching out to a coach is
(12:00):
brilliant because, again, thework is so complex.
Who are some of your thinkingpartners?
Who are the individuals you canturn to and say look, I'm
getting triggered by this orthis is going on, because if you
just think about just thenatural element of humans
existing together, that's noteasy.
And again, when safety is yournumber one priority and, of
(12:23):
course, there's those othervalues as well that you had
mentioned, but you're nottalking just like.
This is high stakes stuff.
This is not.
I put cheese on your burger,Sorry.
These are important, highstakes roles, and so having that
coach and having that thinkingpartner, critical, awesome, yes,
love it.
And then the fact that you andyour coach started to explore
(12:46):
and kind of move into that spaceof self-awareness of what are
my strengths, what is it that Ibring to this role, and that
self-exploration, because I'msure you've learned a ton about
yourself as this has beenelevated on you.
As the role has elevated,you're being confronted now with
all kinds of new situations.
It's kind of like parenting.
(13:07):
You know, when it was just meand my wife, we were cool, but
then, when our son wasintroduced, that's a new type of
learning for us as a couple,but also for me as a human, as a
parent, and now me as a parentof teenagers.
I'm learning in totally newways there.
But as the role elevates,there's all these new
opportunities to learn aboutyourself.
(13:28):
So I love that I got a coachand I'm systematizing that
introspection, thatself-awareness.
I don't know does that resonatewhat I just said?
Trey Carlson (13:40):
Yeah, absolutely.
I love the fact.
In fact, before you said it, Iwas just thinking about being a
parent.
And my kids are older now,they're in their early to mid
twenties, and at one point Idon't know why I thought this,
but I thought, oh, when they getover 18 or when they get
through school, like everythingwas going to be done, but I
don't even think I've even begunparenting yet.
(14:01):
Like everything was going to bedone, but I don't even think
I've even begun parenting yet.
You know like and my kids aregreat, everybody's kids are the
best.
So I think even thoserelationships I have with them
and seeing them change andseeing them become who they are
has helped me in my role here ofunderstanding how I've changed,
how I need to change the way Igo about things.
Probably half a dozen years agoor so, I was a little frustrated
(14:22):
out here at work and I wasfeeling like I wasn't getting
the advancement I deserved orpeople weren't noticing or
whatever you know.
And I went through a period oftime I don't know maybe six
months or so that I was tryingto think what I want to do and
then I don't remember how or why, but I decided you know what?
You just stop looking atyourself and look at others.
(14:49):
And so I really earnestlystarted focusing on my peers and
even people that were juniorgraded at me and thinking about
how can I help them with theircareer or how can I help when I
first started at NASA?
I didn't pursue mentoring asmuch back then I kind of wish I
would in hindsight and so I sortof went out of my way about
half a dozen years ago and itwasn't like I went to someone
and said I'm going to be yourmentor.
Scott Allen (15:09):
That would be awesome, though.
Do you need a mentor?
I'm right here.
Trey Carlson (15:11):
I know Right right , but it became really
gratifying to see these peoplelike grow and both their
personal as well as theirprofessional life, and I know I
had a part.
I'm not saying they owe it allto me but I also felt like it
was very gratifying to see someof them getting married, having
kids, taking on moreresponsibility at work or at
(15:34):
home, and it's been really good,and so I think about that as
like when I moved into and nowall of a sudden I'm working on
the senior management team.
Scott Allen (15:42):
Yeah, right.
Trey Carlson (15:43):
And these people are no longer the people that I
revered and looked up to, as,all of a sudden, I was like,
okay, they're people just likeme, our flawed individuals
trying to do the best, pullforward on making what we
provide better.
Yeah, I do think it had alittle bit to do, though, with
kids, kind of that transitionthe way, looking at my kids
being like, okay, if I only havekids till 18, then I'm done
(16:06):
what I do with this vacuum in mylife.
Scott Allen (16:08):
What comes out for me right there in a really nice
way is that you're investing inrelationships, you're investing
in others, you're again buildingrelationships with different
individuals in the organizationand you're other-oriented.
And again that's critical whenit comes to leadership, because
I think we can be so focused onwhat's happening to us and
(16:30):
what's coming to us.
That ability to look at othersin the organization, especially
some of those younger folks,that had to have been so
meaningful that someone in yourrole, in your position, in your
authority, tenure whatever wordwe want to say is investing in
them.
I had an individual at theuniversity that I used to be at.
(16:50):
I had just started and he was avice president and president in
the provost's office and hesaid, hey, let's go to lunch,
and just the fact that he tookthat time meant so much to me as
someone who's a junior in theorganization, and I'm sure he
learned as well.
He probably gained someperspective and better
(17:12):
understood someone's experienceat a different level in the
organization.
But we both had this passionfor film and so we would go see
films together, we would havelunch periodically.
But that other orientation inhim I always appreciated that I
wasn't just someone new, I wassomeone potentially to build a
relationship with and invest insome ways, and Jim was just.
(17:32):
He was incredible, and so Ivery much appreciate that story.
Trey Carlson (17:38):
Yeah, I eat lunch by myself, maybe half the time.
Most of the time I'm eatinglunch, you know, and I know a
lot of people during lunch, itwould be very easy and sometimes
to go in the office, close thedoor and really catch up.
Let's face it, that's amiserable way to live and I've
done it.
You know you're on yourcomputer eating, you get done
and you like drip food all overyour keyboard, whatever, and I
(17:59):
do that.
But a lot of times I try toprobably 50% of the time if I'm
eating lunch, just have peoplecome up and I'll be like you got
to sit in my office but we'regoing to eat here.
It's a way that I've just keepup with people, you know, and
then, of course, you talk aboutthings, but then you've talked
about work things as well, youknow, and some people are very
private, possessive of theirlunchtime, which I get it.
(18:20):
That's just for me.
I just found okay, since mytime is so limited, I'm
definitely going to eat, and theworst is when we actually have
a meeting and I have to actuallyeat and they're all sitting
around my desk watching me eat.
But if you walk out and you getlike something in your tooth
for the past two hours, or not,you know, so Come on guys.
Scott Allen (18:39):
Let me know that that piece.
Trey Carlson (18:40):
I tooth for the past two hours, or not, you know
.
So, come on, guys, let me knowthat, that piece, I know right.
Scott Allen (18:42):
What else, anything else come to mind for you as
you think about your transitionto the role, as you think about
leadership.
What's another kind of Northstar for you as you?
I mean, I'm hearingrelationships, I'm hearing
self-awareness, I'm hearingreaching out for, for coaches.
Those are all kind of shiningthrough.
Anything else come to mind foryou as you think about the role.
Trey Carlson (19:03):
Yeah, one thing I did shortly after moving in this
role is so the federalgovernment-wide they do this
federal employee viewpointsurvey.
They survey all the federalgovernment every year and it's
like how are you feeling thecondition, work environment,
whatever and so NASA has beenlike the number one medium-sized
agency for the past seven oreight years and Kennedy is like
(19:26):
the number one center five orsix years in a row within NASA
of like our viewpoint survey.
So, we already feel veryconnected to the work because
hardware comes in and then wesee it launch.
But the one thing that you knowwhen I stepped in this role is
I felt like we needed morefocused time on just getting
together with our seniormanagement and discussing
(19:47):
strategy.
We would have offsites once ortwice a year, a couple of days
to kind of get away.
I really felt like we needed amore frequent.
So every other month actuallyonce a month we cancel our staff
meeting on Mondays and onemonth we'll do a leadership
thing for our senior managementteam a speaker or some sort of
and then the off month we'lltalk about strategy and whatever
(20:10):
that is like something thatwe're trying to pursue and I
found it's selfishly, it'shelped out.
My role First of all helped kindof get most of the leadership
team on the same page.
At least they're hearing aboutit more than twice a year at the
annual offsite or the biannualoffsite.
They're hearing about a littlemore frequent basis, about oh
yes, we're trying to get thisdone and then sometimes we even
(20:32):
make like a social at the end ofthat too.
But that's been extremelyhelpful in my role.
And you know people areresistant, some people don't
like doing that and that's fine.
You realize that quickly who itis.
But if it gets to the pointwhere it's less pomp and
circumstance, it just becomesmore of a who we are we're
talking about.
Hey, we see this happening,what do we think we should be
(20:54):
doing?
And these people, just like me,have very busy schedules, so
it's not like they have time tosit around and do this.
But that's been very helpfulfor me and it's been very
helpful for my boss, thedirector, as we're trying to set
the strategic direction of thecenter and get everybody in
alignment with each other.
Scott Allen (21:09):
Well, and that can be some of one of the most
challenging aspects ofleadership at times is aligning
the human beings right, gettingeveryone kind of oriented in the
same direction.
What are we doing here Exactly?
And so I love in that statementright there you've got we're
systematizing our learning.
Leaders are learners.
Are we learning aboutleadership and are we learning
(21:31):
about our own leadership?
There's a great quote, jonathanI'm sorry you're going to get
so tired of me saying this onthe podcast, but my friend,
jonathan Reams says leaderscreate the weather, and so I
love that quote.
So what are the weather patternswe're creating as a leadership
team?
And that's a critical question.
And there's another quote thatI love who you are is how you
(21:56):
lead, so who am I?
And that's an importantquestion, especially if others
are in your care back to thatself-awareness conversation,
that coaching conversation.
But I think you could take thatwho you are is how you lead to
another.
We're setting the weatherpatterns we are putting into
(22:22):
place, and that requires someintentionality.
You got to water that plant forit to live.
So, as you're prioritizing someof that time, not only to get
on the same page with some ofthe strategic initiatives, but
also from a how are we going todo this work?
What are we working on?
But how are we going to getwork done through others?
(22:42):
What are the weather patternswe're going to create?
Who we are is how we lead.
That's important.
You said something earlier,which another quote.
I'm just going to throw quotesout left and right.
All right, this is a really goodone too.
I do some work with anarchitecture firm in town, and
this was a group of highpotentials who'd kind of been
(23:03):
elevated, and a quote that cameout of that group was so this is
not mine, this is theirs, weare the they now.
Remember younger in your careerwhen you could look up and say
well, it's them, they haven't.
We are the they now and I justlove that.
So you prioritizing that timebecause you are the they now,
(23:25):
it's you.
And how are we doing this workand what weather patterns are we
putting into place and are weelevating our skills?
Very few people went to schoolfor leadership, but now we are
leaders.
Trey Carlson (23:39):
Right.
Scott Allen (23:40):
Wow, just critical.
Trey Carlson (23:42):
Yeah, we at our last offsite, I think late
September.
You know our most valuableresource is people, like
anywhere else, and everybodyknows where the stars are and
everybody wants the stars intheir organization, as they
should, and the last thing youwant to do is lose a star to
another organization.
You know they should, and thelast thing you want to do is
lose a star to anotherorganization, you know.
(24:03):
But we were talking about someintense times coming with work
that we see coming down the pipe, and we really needed
leadership and some folks andfor the first time ever, these
different organizations werewilling to talk about their star
players that could possibly goand work in another organization
to serve the greater good,which many of the directors in
the room were like wow, we'venever been in that position
(24:25):
before, and so I think a lot ofit had to do with.
I feel very blessed.
I think we're an organizationwhere we're trusting each other,
trying to work well,recognizing the volume of work,
and recognize that we got tobuild something that people want
and hopefully the people willwant to stay and if they don't,
you've put them in a good enoughposition where they can go
somewhere else.
So, my boss, I really give hera lot of credit for that, for
(24:47):
creating that environment tohave people that could do that.
Scott Allen (24:50):
Yep, and back to creating that environment.
The reason I love Jonathan'squote leaders create the weather
.
What's weather over time?
That's climate.
What's another word for climate?
Culture?
The weather patterns thatindividual and that team puts
into motion.
It has very real ramifications,very real ramifications for
(25:10):
organizations, and so I love it.
Trey, as we begin to kind ofwind down our time, anything
else come to mind for you thatyou want to cover?
Trey Carlson (25:18):
I've never met anybody that says I'm overpaid
for what I'm doing.
Maybe there are people outthere that are overpaid for what
they're doing.
I don't think I'm in that campand very few people.
But I do think a big portion ofwhat I do is finding people the
immense satisfaction and valueof what we're bringing, like the
greater mission, and I thinkdefinitely at NASA we feel that
(25:40):
connection not only to thescience, the exploration, but
the inspiration that we knowthat comes with our agency and
what we do here at Kennedy.
Scripture says, for much hasbeen given, much is required.
That was also in Spider-Man 2,depending on where you get your.
You know it was sort of amendeda little bit, but that's really
how I think I view my role.
(26:02):
My role in how I work andreally, hopefully, how our
organization works and how welead our folks is that they feel
like that we have their best atheart.
When I came up to the SenateDirector's Suite as the Chief of
Staff, I remember the first sixmonths.
I was blown away how much wetalked about many times a week
about putting the right personin the right place.
(26:24):
You know because it occurred tome after about five or six
months.
Oh yeah, I don't really doanything anymore.
I have other people that dothings right.
Scott Allen (26:33):
You know, in the orchestra you are conducting.
Trey Carlson (26:37):
And so having the right people in the right place
that really should be whatleadership is talking about all
the time, because certainly thecenter director is a building a
rocket in her garage or we needthe right people doing the right
things, and what I've enjoyedabout my job and what I like
about it is through therelationships and hopefully the
culture that we're able to kindof accomplish a mission through
(26:59):
that.
Scott Allen (26:59):
You know it makes me think of the Jim Collins.
You know the right people onthe bus and in the right seats.
It makes all the difference ifthat's the case, because you can
have a violin that's out oftune and that ruins the entire
orchestra in the performance.
And so, yes, kind of conductingand looking at that whole as a
(27:21):
leader and I loved your phrasein there I don't do stuff
anymore necessarily stuff, stuff, but you're conducting and
you're making sure everything ishappening so well as we wind
down our time and again, trey,thank you so very, very much for
your time today.
What's caught your attentionrecently?
It could have to do withleadership, it could have
(27:41):
nothing to do with leadership,but is there something you've
been streaming or listening toor reading, just consuming,
that's caught your attention,that listeners might be
interested in?
Trey Carlson (27:51):
The past couple of years I've really gotten into
podcasts.
I know they've been aroundforever, but not forever, but
the last 10 years or so.
But I have a 45-minute commuteto and from work.
There's a few things.
I listen to President's DailyBrief.
I listen to that which is moreinternational affairs,
everything that's happened onthat side.
It's hopefully a little less.
I don't think it's as muchpolitical.
(28:11):
I listen a lot to JordanPeterson and he's all over the
map.
But what's fascinating abouthere we are in January of 2025
is, I think, on a local,national and global, just things
are happening everywhere.
Maybe the news we just find outabout it more because we're
more connected, but just thechanges all over the place.
And I'm not just talking about,you know, the US president, I'm
(28:34):
talking about Canada and Mexico, the Middle East, europe.
It's interesting to see.
To bring it back to what thisis about Venezuela I was just
listening to that this morningAll of these leadership cycles
happening all over the place,all turmoil maybe not be the
right word, but definitelyupsetting the apple cart and
what that's going to happen,usually as a federal agency,
(28:56):
rolling into an election yearlike we just got to make it till
November and then we canbreathe easy.
But I think 2025 is going to bevery interesting and I'm hoping
it's not negative interesting.
I'm hoping that it'sinteresting getting people
engaged and hopefully feelingmore connected to their, to what
they do, to their families, totheir relationships and what's
important to them they do totheir families, to their
(29:18):
relationships and what'simportant to them.
Scott Allen (29:21):
Yeah, there's a gentleman I don't know if you've
come across him, ian Bremmer.
Have you ever come across IanBremmer for any reason?
Yes, yeah, okay, so yesterday Iwatched it was his thoughts on
2025.
It was just an interview.
It wasn't a TED talk althoughhe does have a fascinating TED
talk, which I'll put a link toin the show notes and he
basically just took theinterviewer on a tour of the
world.
Right, here's what's happeningin Mexico, here's what's
happening in Canada, here'swhat's going on in the Ukraine,
(29:43):
here's what's happening in theMiddle East, and he's just
whether or not you agree withhis predictions or his
assessments.
He's just very interesting tolisten to and I think you're
right.
The seismic shifts that arewhether it's geopolitical,
whether it's digitization,whether it's any number of other
ways we could have thatconversation around shifts five
(30:04):
generations in the workforce,gen Zs and millennials moving
into leadership roles there'sjust a lot of shifts, a lot of
shifts that impacts leadershipin a very real way, a hundred
percent.
Trey Carlson (30:16):
We grapple with that all the time about.
There is no template.
We've got folks in their earlytwenties that like, I want to be
on property, I want to be onsite every day, I want to see
what's going on.
And then we've got the reversepeople that are their entire
career.
That is like I never want tostep on property again, I'm
happy to sit, and everything inbetween.
So how do we manage in thatenvironment?
(30:36):
How do we lead?
Scott Allen (30:42):
Yes and yeah.
I imagine you have folks intheir seventies and I imagine
you have folks in their earlytwenties.
As you said, Some of thoseengineers don't want to quit.
They keep going.
Trey Carlson (30:47):
Right, we got people here that our last
accident as an agency in 2003,you know they were in diapers
then or certainly went around in9-11, you know.
So it is an amazing time tohave this volume of people out
working together and trying to.
So of course, it's going to belike a.
It's going to be like aThanksgiving meal.
It's just a lot.
(31:07):
Yeah, it's a lot.
You've got kids at the kidtable.
Sometimes I feel like I've beenat the kid table for 45 years
now.
I'm like simply adults, adults.
Scott Allen (31:17):
Well, Trey, thank you for the incredible work you
do.
Thank you for spending sometime with me today.
I really appreciate it and Ilook forward to connecting again
, hearing about your progress,your observations on doing this
work.
I often think of leadership asjust my personal mission.
How do we better prepare peopleto serve in these really
challenging roles?
(31:38):
Because they're not easy, andso it's always fun to connect
with folks doing that work andbetter understanding how you're
making sense of it.
You work for an incredibleagency that has changed history
and it's just so much fun tohave that conversation.
Trey Carlson (31:54):
Well, thanks, Scott.
This is enjoyable.
I've been looking forward tothis for several months now,
especially after the holidaysand everything.
I appreciate it.
I've enjoyed talking to you andsince I've become connected
with you, I've started listeningto your podcast as well.
Scott Allen (32:08):
Oh well, good, Thank you for listening.
Go launch a rocket or something.
Trey Carlson (32:13):
I got to get out of here.
Scott Allen (32:13):
Thanks, Okay relationships, learning and
(32:36):
creating the context where, as ateam, they can orient
themselves in a way they canlearn, develop and grow.
Ensure that they are marchingin unison, so the organization
is doing so as well.
Trey, thank you so much foryour incredible work.
Thanks to all of you forlistening.
(32:57):
Take care everyone.
Have a great day.
If you haven't done so, checkout the show notes.
There's a link to startthinking about Prague ILA,
prague 2025.
Take care everyone.
Bye-bye.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.