Episode Transcript
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Paula (00:00):
Have you ever thought
about having conflict with your
(00:02):
partner as an opportunity? Ifnot, today, you're going to find
out why you should. Alright,let's get into it
(00:26):
Welcome to practically married.
The podcast created to helpdating engaged and newly married
couples prepare for healthy longterm committed relationships.
I'm Paula Holt. And on thisshow, I'm going to bring you
conversations with experts whowill give you tools to take your
relationship to the next level.
(00:47):
Although many of our guests willbe therapists, please keep in
mind that practically married isfor educational purposes only,
and is not a substitute fortherapy with a licensed
professional. Hi, and thank youfor listening to the show. Today
we're fortunate to have ShamayaDerek return, to talk about the
(01:10):
role of conflict in romanticrelationships. And if you've
listened to all of our episodesso far, and I certainly hope you
have or that you're planning to,you'll remember Shamaya from the
communication episode. She's alicensed therapist, a certified
addictions counselor, and theowner of profound peace
(01:30):
psychotherapy collective, atherapy practice operating in
both Illinois and Wisconsin.
She's also the author of thewords between us journals for
couples and the becoming mejournal for women. Shemaiah
brings her level three Gottmantraining to supporting couples
in all relationships stages. Andthat includes offering
(01:52):
premarital counseling, where sheincorporates the practically
married program in the work shedoes helping couples prepare for
married life. So let's welcomeback Shamaya Derek to the show.
Hi Shemiah, welcome back to theshow.
Shemiah (02:15):
Hello, how are you?
Thank you for having me back.
Paula (02:18):
No, thank you for coming
back, I have your your episode
will have dropped by the timethis one you episode on
communication will have droppedby the time this one airs. And
so I have listened to it andlearned from it myself, even
though I was in it and when wewere doing it, but I have
learned something and tried topractice some of the things that
(02:38):
you've mentioned. So I'm gladI'm glad to have you back.
Because today we are talkingabout conflict. And I feel like
conflict is a kind of thekissing cousin, if you will to
communication. And so I waswondering if you could speak a
little bit first off about howconflict is related to kind of
(02:58):
the conversation that we hadabout communication previously.
Shemiah (03:03):
Sure, so conflict is
something that occurs in every
single relationship. So in thiscontext, you know, romantic
relationships or marriages oreven dating relationships is
something that everyoneexperiences. And I think they're
still a bit of a almost like astigma around conflict being in
a relationship. And we view itas inherently negative. It's not
(03:27):
negative until it crosses overinto negative territory. And one
of the things I think that'simportant is to think about the
role that complex can playbecause there's purpose in it.
In some cases, there's someunderstanding that needs to
occur. In some cases, ithighlights like a need or
(03:47):
something that's goneunexpressed. And so it's
actually an opportunity. It'salways an example or a good
opportunity to practice or teambuilding fields, which you want
in a relationship. I always sayrelationships is a team sport,
like everybody's got a role toplay. And so I do think when it
comes to conflict, because it'ssuch a big topic, one of the
(04:08):
things that I think is reallyimportant is like normalized
conflicts in a way and be ableto see it as a natural part of
your relationship is not doesn'thave to be inherently negative.
People don't yet maybe ascribeit to be positive, but it's just
kind of a neutral thing. That'sa part of your relationship.
Paula (04:26):
Right? Well, I think
there are people that actively
avoid it, and that they thinkthat somehow if we don't like we
never fight. It's a positivething. And that's actually not a
positive thing. In fact, I heardthis quote, I have noticed that
I'm, I find these quotes thatreally just resonate for me. But
(04:48):
a therapist by the name ofRobert Tybee, mentioned he said
if you avoid conflict, you tendto replace it with distance. And
I just thought that was that wasbut not on that if you are
unwilling to go into thatterritory that you think will
lead to conflict, then you'reshutting down a part of
(05:09):
yourself. And that pulls youaway from your partner is odd
almost to think about it thisway. But the conflict can
navigate in conflict can lead togreater intimacy. So, in terms
of talking about conflict, whatdo you think are some of the
(05:29):
causes of it? Why do we get intoit in the first place?
Shemiah (05:34):
So, from my
perspective, there's like, two
primary thing. One are issuesand communication, to your point
about avoidance. So there'sdifferent ways that people have
different communication styles.
It's further complicated whenthere's something that feels
like it's going to initiate aconflict. So there's a tendency
to withdraw because of the feararound how that's going to go
(05:57):
when there are things that youdon't maybe agree about. So this
matches and communicationstyles, I think there's one
underneath that though, isemotional disconnection or
issues in your emotionalconnection. John and Julie got
me back. I just got my message,John, and Julie Gottman, the
founder, that is one of theirfoundational principles is that
(06:20):
the number one cause of conflictis an emotional disconnection.
Because there isn't the ordoesn't feel like there's a
space that will hold the tensionand the stress without it having
a negative impact. So when youdeal from that standpoint, when
I'm working with couples, italmost doesn't matter. What like
(06:41):
the subject matter is it couldbe money, it could be parents a
difference in parenting styles,it could be sex, it could be
helpful thing, you can insertanything in there, usually one
of those two things, or both thecommunication piece or the
emotional connection piecethat's underneath that, right?
Paula (07:04):
And so I guess, well,
let's, let's circle back to
that. Because then the questionbecomes, what are some things we
can do to enhance connection tomake the communication better,
or the connection better to thenmake conflict more, I don't
know, easier to navigate, Iguess. One of the things that I
(07:27):
was thinking about having thisconversation with you and just
doing some research, and I cameupon a woman who her name is
Marlene Chisholm, she's actuallya conflict expert for
professional organizations. AndI think I mentioned to you
before, I do get a lot of goodinformation about relationships,
from non relationship, eitherexperts or sources. And she was
(07:51):
talking about conflict, she wastalking about the importance of
self awareness. And that justreally got me thinking about
conflict being kind of really,if we kind of dig deep down,
triggering some insecurities, orvulnerabilities that we have or
like an unmet need, do you seethat play out in your couples?
Shemiah (08:14):
For sure, so one of the
things that we look at is the
why, why does this kit in this,like, why does this bring that
emotion? Like what is going on?
So it's almost like the conceptof the emotional iceberg, right?
So what's happening on thesurface is only what you see,
but what's underneath that,because there's plenty of
(08:34):
conversations you could haveabout money or things like that.
They don't call the conflict,what is it about this thing in
particular, that is bringing upthis emotion in you? So we look
at that and try to get to thereally honest answer. So it
could be fear, it could be, youknow, uncertainty, it could be,
you know, any combinationthereof, because what happens in
a conflict and what creates aconflict is through the motions,
(08:57):
but you don't have access to oryou're not tapping into the why.
Because if you're in arelationship, if all intents and
purposes bonded and balanced,they can be any value it you're
not going to move past orpartners need or genuine feeling
when you understand what it isyou're going to respond or react
(09:19):
to what's being said and what'shappening. So we go the
emotional route because anargument about money they then
you get into debating. You maynever agree on those details.
But understanding okay, youmight react to me in this way.
Because what from day to day aredifferent times you have a valid
(09:41):
concern about our financialstability and you want to make
sure that we're on the same pageabout finances, that
conversation is gonna go very,very different. And so we look
at the emotional piece, but thenalso we work on this
consistently throughout becauseyou're not going to be able to
do all of that next level. workin the moment where you're in a
conflict, right? These areconversations that have to be
(10:03):
proactive. Outside of that, whenthings are calm, when you feel
really good, it's the best timeto have a conversation. So hey,
you know, like, here are sometopics that we struggle a little
bit. They don't go so well, theydon't go as well as we'd like
them to, here's what we'renoticing is happening. How might
we go about this when we need tohave those conversations, so you
have that information, then andyou're human, and sometimes
(10:27):
you're gonna be able to do itsmoothly. And sometimes you're
still going to have a bit of aeruption. But your partner
having that concept is going tobe helpful, like, oh, we had
that conversation, they did saythat this was a thing for them.
I'm not going to take itpersonally right now. So you are
able to connect to it when youdon't have those foundational
(10:47):
pieces. It's game on, and thenkind of go where it goes. Right.
Paula (10:54):
And I think in addition
to that, knowing that context
for your partner, is reallystart it starts with you, right,
knowing that context for you. Sowhy are you coming in? Hi, can
you step back and say, I feelscared about this? I am
sensitive about this. And thatmay be a conversation you have
(11:16):
with yourself? Hopefully, yes,you can share with your partner,
but have that conversation withyourself. What am I reacting to?
One of the other things MarleneChism mentioned that that
resonated for me was what elsecould be true? I'm dealing with
this surface thing, what elsecould be true. And another thing
(11:37):
you mentioned, you mentionedthat the need to calm down.
Before, like I say, coming inhot is my is my expression. But,
but tying back to this wholenotion that we should not avoid
conflict. calming down, doesn'tmean necessarily, in many cases,
(11:59):
it doesn't mean letting it go,as sometimes I think we calm
down, and then it's just like,Oh, I'm not even gonna bother
with it, I'm not gonna get intoit, because I don't want to have
what I think will be a difficultconversation. So it's important,
you got to kind of find thatsweet spot between calming down,
but not almost calming down somuch that you decide to let it
(12:21):
go. Because that goes back tothat avoiding conflict creating
distance. So and I think anotherpoint you mentioned was, there's
something to highlight, becausewe often think the causes of
conflict are money, you know, isthe biggest cause of conflict,
right? And it's sex in his inlaws. But what you're really
(12:41):
pointing to is that those are,those are kind of the ways that
other things more importantthings are being manifested. So
that's, those are just subjectswhere your lack of connection
might be exposed, or yourmismatch communication styles,
or might be exposed that youhave insecurities or fears
(13:04):
around those topics inparticular vulnerabilities
around, let's say, yoursexuality. So you're arguing
about it, but really what it is,is you're sensitive about about
that. So it's good to highlightthat, instead of people focusing
on Oh, we have conflict overmoney, we'll pull back the
layers, right, pull back thelayers on that. So if you're
(13:25):
trying to kind of navigate someof the things, like let's say
you have recurring issues aroundcertain problems, is that an
indication? What do you what doyou think that's an indication
of indication,
Shemiah (13:40):
and sort of in the
Gottman world, a recurring
issue, something that just kindof keeps coming back around?
Let's talk about it a littlebit, but it never seemed like it
managed is potentiallypotentially either a
professional or a solvableproblems. So professional issues
are those reoccurring things areexactly what they sound like.
And sometimes they'rereoccurring, because they have
(14:02):
to do with the state of being orpersonality, or a belief or a
thought or a value. Andespecially, you know, adults,
depending on where they are inlife, they have these ideas,
they have these core beliefswhere it's like, Nope, this is
what it is. And this is what Ibelieve. And so conflict comes
into play because your partnermay not have those same
arguments on some of it has todo with your personality and
(14:24):
just how you sort of move andbehave as it pertains to certain
topics. And so those areperpetual.
Paula (14:30):
So those are just use a
perpetual that Gottman
terminology is perpetual. Sothose are problems that are just
going to resurface over and overagain, and it's through no
failing of the couple that theseproblems are gonna come up. They
just are because they're basedon them being two different
(14:50):
people two differentupbringings, two different sets
of life experiences. And sothose things are gonna come back
over and over, they're justgonna maybe present themselves
into Different ways is that theaccurate?
Shemiah (15:03):
Okay? It never correct.
And sometimes someone will say,Well, if it's a perpetual
problem, what does that mean?
You have to look it up and dealwith it? No, because it's not
what that mean. That one isawareness. Okay, this is a
professional problem for us.
This is because you grew up thisway I grew up this way, and we
just don't meet, I don't see eyeto eye as it pertains to this,
(15:23):
what you can do instead is acompromise. So we might not go
100% your way or 100% my way,what's in the middle, you can
still see that as an opportunityto understand where each partner
is coming from, and do a littlebit of a ranking. Okay, I have
feelings about this. My feelingsdiffer from your feelings, but
(15:44):
on a scale of one to 10 with 10being the most important, is it
the 10 For me, now, we justaren't going to maybe, you know,
arrive at something, but I'mokay with that.
Paula (15:56):
Okay, can you a lot of
our couples are currently
engaged, headed towards gettingengaged kind of in that in that
space in that phase of theirlives. Can you give an example
maybe for couples who are let'ssay planning a wedding? Around
how they might, their perpetualproblems, those differences
(16:17):
might might come up?
Shemiah (16:20):
Sure. So a big one is
who's included in what was tied
to how big the wedding, right?
There may be one person who wasmore of an extrovert, and they
always grew up with strugglegroups of friends, they have
large network of a large family,and they're used to be
surrounded by people that theylove. They have really valuable
(16:41):
relationships. And so it's oh mygosh, it's my wedding. Of
course, I want to have 300people and 10 people in my
wedding party, right, yourpartner may be on the other side
of that they're much more of anintrovert, they like to sort of
curate people that are in theircircle. And they're like, Yeah,
I feel like if there's like twopeople that I want to be, you
know, standing up in the weddingwith me, and making sure that
(17:04):
they have some of the energythat I want. But the optics,
what does that look like if Ihave 10 people and you have two,
and what is the picture andmatching people going down the
aisle and all of these things.
And it can stay there, sometimesit can balloon into other areas
(17:24):
of life. Number two, planning awedding as a whole long periods
of decisions are all based onnumbers. And so it then kind of
lines up the domino. And soultimately, it's the same thing
of looking at what is mostimportant. What is important to
each of you about this. And atthe end of the day, most people
(17:46):
the most important part is theactual wedding and being
married, not how many people arein the wedding party. And while
yes, the optics are nice to haveeverybody matched up going down
the aisle is that more importantthan you go feeling supported in
the way that you wanted, you canslice and dice that a million
ways that somebody can go downis by themselves, match people
up, if you've got 10 to haveyour two people come together,
(18:08):
you can do that in the weddingplanner will help you with that.
That's not the most importantthing where you want to put the
most energy. Now what could beunderneath that is in wedding
bring this out for people. Withthe person who made me wants to
have the 10 people and all thosethings. Sometimes people will
(18:28):
describe like, you know what Ido see the wedding as like a way
of kind of giving back to them.
It's almost like a gift to them.
So for me to not have thesepeople included, doesn't feel
good for me. But if you say atthe level of just debating
matching up people going downthe aisle, you'll have that
argument and conflict formonths, all the way up until the
(18:50):
wedding. When you go deeper. Oh,it's super important to you not
just because of the optic, thisis tied to how important to your
relationship. This is youwanting to acknowledge and give
gratitude for people. That's anentirely different conversation
that's going to go way better.
Right,
Paula (19:07):
right. And there's a lot
in that excellent in that
example, to pull out, pull outsome important points, like you
mentioned, the differences ofone person's extrovert and one
person's an introvert, thatthose are personality
differences that are fundamentalto them. So in thinking about
perpetual problems, when thatinstance is coming out in the
(19:30):
wedding, and how many guests buta few years down the line, a may
come up in, oh, we're having aparty at our house, and how many
people or I want to go to thisfunction. You don't want to go
with me? Well, I'm an extrovertand go into this function is
fun, where's for you isdraining. And so that's a
perfect example. I think of howthat could be. It's not
(19:53):
necessarily a problem but inthat terminology, or perpetual
problem as it is going to besomething that comes up Time
after time is not going to besomething that is just solved.
It will be something thatbecause of your differences will
come up time and time again andis to be managed. How do we
manage it and the wedding? Howdo we manage it going to my
(20:16):
holiday office party or myoffice holiday party? Just a
quick pause to let you knowabout the free mini course
available at practically marriedthat net, sign up for get ready
to say I do to explore five ofthe practically marry subjects.
(20:36):
In the course, you'll receive anemail about each subject that
includes helpful suggestions,and a brief three question
homework assignment to get youand your partner talking about
how you can work together tomanage your money, your
household, your in laws, andmore. Go to practically
married.net/free-course to signup now. Okay, let's get back to
(21:01):
our conversation. You mentionedwith Gottman, that there are
also solvable problems. That'sthe kind of the other aspect of
our Garmins look at conflict.
Can you speak to that a littlebit.
Shemiah (21:17):
So what I typically see
it is interesting. It's almost
like perpetual unsolvableproblems go hand in hand, what
surfaces is actually a solvableproblem, but it's the thing
that's getting talked about. Soin that same example of the
wedding party, what they willtell a couple might talk about
(21:38):
for a month and not be able toagree on is the numbers in the
wedding party. And that feelslike the thing we can agree on
how many people who are going tohave a wedding party. That is a
solvable problem, kind of towhat I alluded to, in terms of
the wedding planner can help youfigure that out, in terms of how
people walk down the aisle,maybe some people have a
different role. And maybethey're not standing up in the
wedding, if you if your goal isto have them included. There are
(22:02):
25 different ways to do that.
And that's a solvable problem.
But the disconnect about that iswhat purposes, but and then once
a couple of able to really getunderneath there, that's where
you get to the fact that oh,this is due to the fact that
it's a perpetual. Okay,
Paula (22:20):
got it. So I like moving
forward, we're if we're kind of
understanding what is each ofus, I guess, what are we
bringing to it and understandingwhat our partner is bringing to
it kind of understanding how tonavigate the conflict, when we
get to the point where we wantto kind of move through that.
Hopefully, there's someapologies, right, some, we've
(22:44):
had a conflict, we're movingtowards wanting to apologize,
can you speak to how we can mosteffectively do that? And maybe
how we shouldn't?
Shemiah (22:57):
One, apology is always
going to be valuable, if it's
genuine. So if it does not feelinstinctually, like, Okay, I did
not like how that went, I'mtaking some accountability, and
I want I understand the impactthat it had on my partner, and
(23:18):
I'm not okay with that. Ifyou're not there, you can delay
it for a period of time, becausean empty apology kind of does
the opposite
Paula (23:28):
of what language would
you use if you're going to delay
it.
Shemiah (23:32):
So one of my favorite
to talk about all the time is
the gentle startup. Because itapplies in so many different
ways. And so that is the Gottmanconcept. The formula of it is I
feel x about why not easy. It'sbased on something that's very
present. But what I love aboutit is that you can use it to
frame the future and you cantake it over to the past. So if
(23:55):
you've had a conversation thatdidn't go well, and you're
thinking about it, and you'relike, Yeah, I want to be able to
apologize, you can sort offinesse that same formula to
offer that
Paula (24:06):
apology. Okay, well, what
if you going back to what you
were saying, I'm not ready toapologize, because it's not
genuine just yet. And you sayyou can delay it? Is that? Okay,
so how would you delay it? I'mnot ready to apologize. What
would I say?
Shemiah (24:23):
Sure. You definitely
wouldn't say you're not ready to
apologize. But what you offer issome transparency about where
you are, it's like, you know,I'm not the same thing of like,
you know, I didn't totally lovehow that conversation went or
how it ended, because I had hopethat we would be able to, you
know, strike a compromise or,you know, come to something that
(24:43):
worked for us. I'm stillprocessing and I'd like for us
to revisit it, but I'm not readyjust yet. Okay. So it's still
the I feel x about y and I needZ it's just finessed a little
bit. There's still an emotion inthere, there was neutral context
in there. The negatives die.
Paula (25:02):
Okay. All right. So if
I'm not ready to apologize, I'm
not gonna say that. But I'mgoing to say that I'm still
thinking about it. I'm stillprocessing things. It didn't go
as well as I'd hoped. And I'dlike to revisit it. What if I
know I did something, but maybeI feel that my partner did
(25:23):
something to or they didsomething to trigger me or
antagonize me. But I know I didsomething, how am I gonna handle
that?
Shemiah (25:33):
So it's gonna be some
accountability, it's possible to
take accountability people likea parent together, I'm gonna
take some accountability. ButI'm also gonna tell you why I
did what I did. Or I said, whatI said, Separate. Because the
minute you put that connectingpiece in there, you've lost your
partner, because now they'regoing to respond to the second
part of that, which is likeblaming criticism, and it kind
(25:54):
of, so you want to stick withyou and your experience and what
you're aiming for in thatmoment. But you're taking
accountability, takeaccountability, period, like
that, is it? And
Paula (26:06):
what does that what does
that look like? Can you give an
example of what that looks like?
Sure.
Shemiah (26:10):
So maybe it was an
accountant accountability piece,
a lot of times people feel like,well, I don't think I'm wrong
here. Or, you know, I feel kindof standby, you know, sort of
what you know, I did. So whatyou want to do is find some part
of it, if that's how you feelthat's valid, and those are your
feelings, but you want to findsome part of it, especially as
(26:31):
it pertains to your partner thatyou can own, even if it is, I
took action XYZ. And I dounderstand that that caused you
to feel stress that causes youto feel unheard to hurt your
feelings, you can take a catbecause not so much you take an
accountability that you've donesomething wrong, is like, Okay,
I understand that this had animpact, and I'm taking
(26:53):
accountability for the impact,which I can admit is not great.
Paula (26:57):
Right. Okay. Or I could I
could also admit that the way I
said it, I raise my voice, and Ishouldn't have I use some
language, or I brought upsomething from the past that I
shouldn't have situations whereyou may still believe, as you
(27:19):
said, still believe around theissue. Maybe they you were gonna
say right, but you still standby what you said. But the way
you said it, you can agree wasproblematic.
Shemiah (27:33):
But I think what people
who struggle, what we look at
are the objective facts. Andwhat I mean by that is, if
someone were watching theinteraction between you and your
partner like a movie, what arethe parts that they could pull
out? That maybe weren't sogreat? The way that you said it
the way you introduced thetopic? With a gentle? Or did you
(27:55):
just kind of throw it all outthere shots fired? Did it let
consideration if your partnerwas preoccupied, and maybe they
had a long day, he just fired itout them? Like if someone were
going back and looking at, likea movie where the point that if
I if I could have done that alittle differently? Okay, that
wasn't so great. Those areusually the parts where you can
(28:15):
take some accountability. Well,that
Paula (28:17):
goes back to some of the
things we talked about in our
conversation aboutcommunication, and the
importance of being mindful, notbombarding your partner when
they walk out the door or whenthey're, when they're walking in
the door or when they've had abad day, or when they're not
prepared to have theconversation that is a recipe
for conflict. And soacknowledging, hey, I should
(28:41):
have given you a chance to comein and get settled before I
brought that issue up. So it wasnot a good time. I still feel
strongly about the issue. But mytiming was was wrong. And I
apologize for that. That, to meis an example of how you can you
can take accountability for partof your delivery or your timing,
(29:03):
but not the issue itself thatyou still feel like is an
important issue to address.
Okay, you also, you know, wewere talking about this
previously, you mentioned theimportance of empathy and
apologizing. Can you comment onthat a little bit?
Shemiah (29:19):
So empathy is what I
talked about my couples about,
it's an evergreen asset. There'snot going to ever be a time when
it's genuine, that empathy isn'tbeneficial. And empathy is not
agreement because you may notagree to two different
components, two differentperspectives. Empathy is just
understanding and empathy andaccountability actually go hand
(29:41):
in hand, where again, you maynot totally agree with where
your partner is coming from, butit's a slightly different
version of accountability, whereit's like, okay, if the tables
were turned, and I felt the waythat you feel about this issue,
or If I were if this was atrigger area for me, and you
(30:05):
interacted with me the way thatI interacted with you, I can
understand how that would havehad that impact. Okay? That's
the connecting piece. So again,it's not about agreement you get
on the path of trying to getagreement, a long one is going
to be more complex. But the endof the understanding piece of
what I can understand even acouple struggle just because of
(30:26):
you know, personality, you know,thing. Me really objective, how
might a person if you're havingdifficulty offering it to your
partner, if you are out of it,and you were sort of witnessing
it or friend, were describing itto you? How am I a person that
was in your partner's position?
headshots? Can you see how theway that that went, would have
(30:47):
had this type of impact? Okay.
Paula (30:51):
Well, in preparing for
this, I was, I was doing some
research, and I came upon somesome of the work from Alexandra
Solomon, who is a therapist andan author. She's also the
professor of the marriage 101class and Northwestern
University that is apparently avery popular class. And she's
done a lot of work on, onnavigating conflict that I'll
(31:14):
put in the show notes. But shetalks about avoiding ifs, so I'm
sorry, if I hurt you. Avoidingbuts, I'm sorry, but I didn't
mean it says about avoidingcross complaining, I only did X
because you did why? That andthat goes back to last year
(31:35):
accountability piece, you know,it's like, you may have felt
triggered. But that doesn'texcuse you from doing what you
did and what your part was. Andyou've got to take
accountability for your part,full stop. Without saying you
cost me you know, you can'tblame somebody for your own
actions. So I have to say, Ihave a style of apology that I
(32:00):
respond to that now I have foundis, you know, people consider it
a little bit I'll saycontroversial, but a lot of
people don't like it. What Ilike in an apology is an
explanation. And it's not. It'snot like I did this, but But
it's more like, I want to knowif you said something hurtful.
(32:24):
What were you thinking? Like notwhat were you thinking? But
genuinely, what were youthinking about? If I know you
not to be a hurtful person,there was something in you. And
again, this goes back to maybethose insecurities
vulnerabilities, there wassomething that you were feeling
at the time. That made you saythat, and I want to know what
(32:50):
that is. And part of the reasonis because I think one I'm going
to get a better understanding ofyou. But two, I want you to
understand what you did. Can youunderstand it? Can you
articulate what you werefeeling? Because how else do I
know? Or can I reasonablybelieve that it's not going to
(33:11):
happen again? I don't know. Doyou find that people? Like? Am I
rare? And looking for that?
Shemiah (33:19):
No, I don't think so.
And I think the reason thatpeople find it to be
controversial, I do understand,because it it can take so many
forms. People feel in I getwhere they're coming from, they
feel like it's a little bit onesided. So if what you're
describing is wanting to kind ofunderstand the whole concept,
(33:39):
and someone's coming with theapology, that they're giving you
the context and kind ofexplaining the why sometimes
unintentionally, it can leavethat person with like this
heaviness like this guilt orshame and then you get a whole
nother task to try to workthrough. So in the essence of
it, I get it, because it's alittle bit of accountability.
(34:02):
And it's a little bit more of acontext to get to the empathy.
When you're like I want to kindof understand where you're
coming from, but you actuallyoffering the empathy. So in the
Gottman space, we have a certaintype of conversation. It's
called for short and aftermathaftermath of a regrettable
incident and the regrettableincident could be as easy as
like an argument or conflict.
(34:24):
The essence of that conversationand that intervention is that
but it's balanced out. So we hadan interaction that did not go
well. We're not going to startpulling out all the baggage or
going back to that particularincident in within question. And
we are going to share ourperspectives about what was
(34:44):
happening for us at the time.
What were our intention? Whatwere we thinking? How did we
want it to land versus how itlanded but you do both partner
is not just the one so you levelit out of it. Okay,
Paula (35:00):
okay. I guess ultimately,
it's about knowing your partner
and how they want to receive anapology. Because I know for some
people is, I'm sorry, full stop.
For me, I'm sorry, without anexplanation is, it's just words
to say, I don't find it to be, Ithink anyone can say I'm sorry.
(35:22):
And so it's like the completeopposite. And so somebody's got
to know what is going to if theyreally want to apologize to
their partner in a way that'sgoing to resonate, they have to
know. And some of this you learnthrough trial and error, you
have to know what your what anapology means to your partner.
In closing, I want to talk aboutforgiveness. Because I think,
(35:47):
you know, part of apology, kindof the other side is, do you
accept that apology? And whatdoes that look like? Can you
speak to that a little bit?
Shemiah (36:01):
Sure. So that's kind of
one of those big ones, like, the
apology be the same thing as alittle bit for forgiveness,
where sometimes it takes sometime. And so I think if there's
been something and both ofthings put together, if there's
been something where there's aneed for an apology, if you're
the one that's issuing theapology, you the way that you
(36:22):
can delay it to make sure thatit's genuine, you have to
understand that your partnermight need some time to
genuinely. And so you'reextending grace to each other,
and almost like a mirroredversion. So if you are on the
receiving end, you want to beable to give as much context as
you have, in order to for yourpartner to not be kind of stuck
(36:45):
in this purgatory of is thereare a part of it that you can
actually accept the apology for,maybe it's not the whole big
thing is like, Okay, Iunderstand now where you are
coming from with the pretense ofthis piece. And I accept your
apology for that. I'm stillprocessing this over here, and
I'm going,
Paula (37:06):
okay, so, so just to kind
of recap that, if you're the one
giving the apology, you're goingto, you're going to you cannot
go into the apology with anexpectation of immediate
forgiveness. Right? Okay. Sothat's one. And if you're the
person accepting, or I will sayaccepting hearing the apology,
(37:28):
you can acknowledge it, you canaccept it partially, or you can
express express appreciation forit. I appreciate your apology, I
need some time to think about itfurther.
Shemiah (37:43):
We want to make it more
specific. Okay, so
Paula (37:47):
I, if I accept your
order, I I appreciate your
apology, I want to think moreabout that thing that you said,
or I want to think more about myfeelings around this particular
aspect of it, you need to givethem something specific in red
in relation to the incident, orthe conversation that went awry.
(38:11):
something specific about that,to say that that's what you're
still thinking about.
Shemiah (38:16):
Correct. And ideally,
you want to take it even half a
step further, and not somethinglike a deadline to it, but kind
of you want to be able to saylike, you know, I need some more
time to think about it. Hugeassumption, you know, at our
next sort of family meeting orat our next, you know, couple of
conversation or you know,whatever the
Paula (38:37):
night a few days, right?
Let's talk about it when we whenwe go for a walk tomorrow,
right? Okay. Right? Becauseotherwise, then the your partner
is kind of like, what does thatmean? You need some time? Is
that a day, a week, a month? I'mstill waiting to hear. I don't
know what to expect. And thatgives me some anxiety as a
partner. Okay. Okay, great, thatthat's helpful. I always want to
(39:01):
leave them with somethingspecific. And you you did that.
If people want more, kind ofthink about this more and want
more guidance with this? Do youhave any particular resources
that you like around conflictand navigating conflict that you
think would be helpful?
Shemiah (39:20):
Sure. So I do like to
different resources on my
website, my america.com. I alsodid create as I'm having a
conversation so consistently,because I'd be socializing
helpful on a set of couplesjournals. And it gets coming
back to sort of the essence ofthe conversation that we're
having doesn't teach you how tolike talk about money or talk
about sex to talk about theseother things. What it does is
(39:42):
help you to kind of clear upsome of that emotional stuff
that's happening under thesurface. And so there's a
section that talks about, youknow, when conversations don't
go so great, like what may behappening and what do you need,
and get at some of the kind ofemotional ties like individually
the whole first part of it isall about individual awareness?
Where are you in thisrelationship? So to your point
(40:07):
about that, that is kind ofwhere you start your handbrake
your partner to be a mind readerand know what you need if you're
not yet sure what you need orwhere you are. And so those I
think are very helpful yourmicrophones use then people
obviously, that I'm not familiarwith use them. A lot of people
use them in couples therapy withtheir couples therapist, or
couples. I've done quite a bitof work and then noticing some
(40:29):
of these things coming up. Theydo them together.
Paula (40:33):
Okay, great. Well, thank
you. I will put information
about that in the show notes,and some more resources that I
referenced about conflict,Marlene Chisholm, and Alexandra
Solomon, and a few other things.
So again, Shemaiah, thank youfor coming back. You know, I
can't say I won't ask you tocome back a third time, but you
just have a lot, a lot ofinformation to share. And just,
(40:56):
you've worked with couples somuch that I know you have some
good suggestions for ourlisteners.
Shemiah (41:03):
Thank you. I do
appreciate it.
Paula (41:15):
To learn more about
Shemaiah work, visit her website
at Shamaya derek.com. You canalso follow her on Instagram at
Shemaiah Derekthanks for joining us this week.
(41:35):
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