June 28, 2023 • 48 mins
Keeley Rankin is back to continue our in-depth conversation about sexuality in committed relationships. Today, we discuss:
- Monogamy & consensual non-monogamy
- Unmatched levels of desire ( known as "desire discrepancy")
- Pornography's benefits & pitfalls
- Sexual desires & fantasies
- Sexual performance challenges
- Mental health & sexuality
- Sex therapy
Keeley Rankin has a passion for helping people find and expand pleasure. She has a master’s in Counseling Psychology with a focus on marriage and family therapy, and has been a sex and relationship coach for over a decade. Keeley is a Certified Queer Conscious Educator as well as a Certified Sexological Bodyworker, and she specializes in helping men overcome sexual struggles.
For more information on Keeley's work visit:
- KeeleyRankin.com
- Instagram: keeleyrankinsexcoach
- Facebook: keeleyrankinma
Additional resources:
- Sexual Conversations Starter (including the "Into it, No way, Maybe" list)
- 10 Questions Checklist (download this FREE list of questions covering each of the Practically Married subjects)
If you like what you heard...
- Follow Practically Married with Paula Holt on your favorite podcast platform to get every episode!
- Visit PracticallyMarried.net/Newsletter to sign up and receive even more relationship info and resources!
- Follow @getpracticallymarried on Instagram to tell us about your experiences using the strategies you hear on the show!
Edited by Veronica Gruba
Music by Sage Holt-Hall
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Paula (00:00):
If you didn't get enough sex last week, there's even more
(00:03):
today. All right, let's get intoit
Welcome to practically married.
The podcast created to helpdating engaged and newly married
(00:25):
couples prepare for healthy longterm committed relationships.
I'm Paula Holt. And on thisshow, I'm going to bring you
conversations with experts whowill give you tools to take your
relationship to the next level.
Although many of our guests willbe therapists, please keep in
(00:45):
mind that practically married isfor educational purposes only,
and is not a substitute fortherapy with a licensed
professional. Hi, thanks forjoining me today. Before we get
into the interview, I want toreally encourage you to use this
podcast as a catalyst forconversations with your partner,
(01:08):
especially on a subject like sixthat many partners have a hard
time talking about. You can say,Hey, I heard this podcast and
then fill in the blank. Or likemy guests Keeley Rankin
suggested. Just send yourpartner the podcast and say,
we'd love to hear your thoughts.
Whatever it takes, I'm hopingyou'll get the conversation
(01:29):
going. And speaking ofconversations, I'm excited to
have sex and relationship coachKeeley Rankin, come back to
continue the conversation westarted last week. Keeley has a
Master's in CounselingPsychology with a focus on
marriage and family therapy.
She's a specialist in the fieldof male sexual struggles. And
(01:50):
she has a passion for helpingcouples find and expand
pleasure. And on top of all ofthat, I just really enjoy
talking to her about sex. Solet's welcome Keeley Rankin back
to the show. Hi, Kelly, welcomeback to the practically married
podcast.
Keeley (02:09):
Hi, I'm so excited to be back here for our second talk
today.
Paula (02:14):
I know I know. We're lucky actually to have you come
back because you sex is just asuch a big topic and
relationships and in marriagethat there was just no way we
could do it all. In one episode.
I'm not even sure we can do itall in two episodes, but we're
going to give it our best shot.
Yeah. Yeah, well, I guess thefirst thing I want to do is kind
(02:36):
of recap a few of the thingsthat we talked about last time,
because they really arefoundational to this
conversation. And I wouldencourage listeners to go back
if you're coming into thisepisode to go back and listen to
that one first, because I askedwhere you really helped us lay
the groundwork for theconversation that we're going to
have today we talked about justreimagining how we define sex,
(03:00):
especially when it comes tostraight couples. We talked
about sexual history and whatthat means in terms of messages
you receive growing up, but alsoyour sexual history with past
partners. And we get into anentered interesting discussion
around bringing up past partnerswith your current partner
message tread lightly.
Definitely go back and listen tothat part before you dive in.
(03:23):
Right. And then we talked aboutkind of exploring your sexuality
as to individuals. We thinkabout this as a couple issue
oftentimes, but you know, yoursexuality is something that you
bring to the relationship as anindividual. And it's important
to, to explore that. And wetalked about some of the ways to
(03:43):
do that. So definitely, youtouched on a lot of interesting
things. So since we laid thegroundwork for account of the
past, and moving into thePresident in the past episode, I
want us to focus on the futurekind of the you know, what
couples kind of have to lookforward to how they can build an
even more exciting and healthysex life. And then also touch on
(04:06):
some of the potential stumblingblocks and how to deal with
those apps the same. I guess thefirst thing I want to address
and maybe it's a little bit of apet peeve of mine, but I think
married sex gets a bad rap. Iknow. Okay, you had a big
reaction. Why don't you speak onthat and then out? I'll jump in.
(04:28):
Yeah, well, I think
Keeley (04:31):
that there's a way that in our culture, well, I think
there's a lot of components toit. There's ageism, right, like
people who are a little bitolder and having great sex or
aren't sexual, which is entirelynot true. And I think actually
most people start having waybetter sex as they get older.
They know their bodies betterthey're a better able to
(04:52):
communicate, they're, they'reless concerned about vanity,
things like that. Lots ofcouples are still sexually
interested in each other. Other1020 3040 years, 50 years into a
marriage, they're still in love.
They're curious. They like theirpartner, they like their
partner's body. And I thinkthose voices just aren't as loud
as the ones who are not happy.
(05:15):
The
Paula (05:15):
other thing, and I call this an issue of causation and
correlation. And what I mean bythat is, I think a lot of people
a lot of stand up comedians,maybe, although I love stand up,
but talk about like, as ifmarriage causes a decline in
sexual activity. And I thinkthat sometimes marriage
(05:37):
correlates with a reduced amountof sex, or maybe some sexual
challenges. Because if you aremarried over a period of time,
right life causes some changesin your, in your sexual
frequency. You have, you mayhave, you know, physical issues,
you may have a mortgage and acareer with a lot weighing on
(05:59):
it, you may have children, andso, right, and just life
stresses, stresses, agingparents, all of the things that
come with getting older in lifeperiod, it just so happens that
if you're married, those thingsare happening in your marriage.
But I just want people to bereally careful about confusing
marriage causing that andmarriage being correlated with
(06:22):
that. Right? I love maybe that'sa little bit of my psychology. A
little bit my sociology andstatistics background on that
one, but we cannot confuse thosetwo. So that being said, let's
talk about a few of the thingsthat we're hearing about a lot
these days around marriage andsex. And the one that I'm seeing
(06:44):
a lot right now is issues aroundmonogamy or not even issues
around monogamy. But the topicof monogamy question
specifically the question, andspecifically monogamy and non
monogamy. Right? I want you tospeak to that, first of all,
because I think some people havea misconception about what non
monogamy actually is, and whatit means and what it requires in
(07:09):
a relationship and just that,that it's even a choice, because
monogamy for some people may bea given but it is ultimately a
choice that you know, two peoplehave to make. So I let you speak
to that.
Keeley (07:22):
Right, I would say an active ongoing choice that if
we're in an agreement with ourpartner that we don't sleep with
other people have sex with otherpeople fall in love with other
people are romantic with otherpeople outside of our primary
relationship is often somethingthat we do have to continue to
return to to say this is thechoice that I've made, and I
continue to make it. You know,it's interesting. Esther Perel,
(07:44):
who's a really popular sextherapist in New York City says,
you know, pretty much if you'veever unless you're only romantic
and sexual with one person yourwhole life, you are non
monogamous. And so this ideathat couples are monogamous is,
you know, we're choosing to bemonogamous at that time. But if
(08:04):
we've already jumped from onepartner to the next, we're
technically not in terms of thehurt her definition of it. Okay.
But I think what we're talkingabout here is how, what kind of
choices are we making aroundcommitment sexually in our
couple? And, you know, thatcomes down to what are the types
of things that make I think ourcouples special, and for most
(08:27):
people, the thing that they dothat separates them from
friendship, or family is sex,there's a type of intimacy and
closeness that comes with thatromantic physical expression of
our sexuality and that type oftouch with clothes off and
kissing and closeness. And so inthat, oftentimes, which is
(08:48):
mostly passed down throughChristianity, is this idea of
like, we only have sex with oneperson. And it brings a lot and
I think for a very long time, itwas just a given people would
just assume when we decide to beboyfriend, girlfriend, that
means sexual exclusivity. And Ithink a lot of couples are
(09:09):
starting to ask if that's reallywhat works for them, if that's
working for their couple forthem individually, if that's
what's making them feel aliveand and content in the couple.
So when I think of what is itmean to step outside the bounds
of monogamy? It's just thisquestion of like, how or if we
(09:30):
let other people's energy in andhow much, you know. I have a
very relaxed view of the spaceof non monogamy or open
relationships. It's sort oflike, can we talk about I think
you actually are starting tostep out of it. When you say can
we talk about crushes that wehave? Like I had a crush on this
(09:52):
person that I saw at the coffeeshop, they were really sexy, I
had a sexual fantasy about them,or I have a crush on this person
at work. or, or this new friendthat we've met? Right that I
actually believe that that isstepping outside the space of
just monogamy as probably apretty relaxed you I think most
people think of it as startingto engage in physical right. And
(10:16):
or active emotionalrelationships that are leading
towards a romantic sphere.
Paula (10:22):
Right? Well, I think the biggest thing that, you know,
has to be mentioned is the ideaof consent and that it is
consensual between the twopartners. Right, that is what
distinguishes non monogamy frominfidelity, right? Yes. And
people need to be clear on that.
Right, because
Keeley (10:44):
actually, infidelity still happens in non monogamous
couples, which is really tricky,right? really tricky, right? It
requires a lot of work toactually be fully honest about
what's happening if you'rechoosing that route. And a lot
of the couples that I work withwho come to see me because
they're starting to think aboutthis, many of them throw the
(11:04):
towel in and just say it's toocomplicated. There's too much,
there's too many conversationswe have to have, there's too
much negotiation, it's just too,it's just more energy than we
want to spend on this. So
Paula (11:16):
one thing I want to mention before we move on is,
and I'm sure you would say this,it is not a fix for problems in
your relationship. No, it takesreally, it takes being in a very
good position with yourrelationship and the ability to
communicate with each other. Soagain, it is not a fix for
(11:37):
sexual challenges in yourrelationship, I want to pivot to
an issue that that comes up alot, and for some people may be
a reason why they consider nonmonogamy is different levels of
desire. Can you talk about thata little bit? Because I think
people automatically assume thatthat's a problem. But I can
(11:59):
certainly see where it would notbe a problem. If the couple kind
of handles it in in ways thatare both people are satisfying
their needs. Can you speak tothat a little bit?
Keeley (12:10):
Yeah, well, I think you actually spoke to it quite well,
in the beginning of ourrecording here, which is that in
a long term couple life ishappening. people's parents are
getting sick, people lose theirjobs. And so our relationship
with our desire for physicalintimacy will shift over time,
(12:33):
which means it's not going toshift in accordance with your
partner, you guys are going tohave differing set points during
different periods of your life.
And, and so I think normalizingthat, but it's called desire
discrepancy is a completelynormal part of a long term
relationship. And it has more todo with how we start to talk
about it, and how we share witheach other our needs and respect
(12:55):
and hold space and see where wecan make inroads. So one, you
know, typically one person wantsmore sex and one person wants
less sex, again, which isnormal. And it's sort of
figuring out like, is there aplace that we can meet in the
middle where both people willfind satisfaction. And you know,
masturbation is always a reallygreat avenue for people who have
(13:17):
higher desire. But what's alsotrue is the person with higher
desire often really wants thatphysical contact, that type of
special connection that intimacyoffers. And so sometimes it's
also figuring out what are otherways that we can explore in that
realm of sex when we defined itearly on, in our last podcast,
right? What else is in therethat could start to feel like
(13:41):
this person is still gettingsome of their needs met? Right?
Without forcing the other personwho's, you know, not feeling
super into it right now? It'sjust a dance.
Paula (13:52):
Right? Well, it could be a situation maybe where one
party one party, these thisisn't a legal issue, but when
one partner is is present, maybewhile the other partner,
moderates. So it's like, I don'thave to be actively engaged in
it. Right. But I'm there to bepresent with you. Right? Wow.
(14:13):
Yeah, you pleasure yourself.
Keeley (14:16):
Right? And like, Am I happy to be in the room or I'm,
it's okay. If I'm taking ashower and you want to watch me
or I'm going to do yoga, and youcan watch me or yeah, I'll place
my hand on your back and or I'llrub your feet or, you know,
yeah, there's lots of ways tonavigate the act of masturbation
or self pleasure, whichtypically means orgasm, that
route to orgasm with the otherperson. They are present. I
(14:39):
normally use the term witness, Iguess we're straight in the
courtroom, but witnessing theirperson, right, but not actively
having to engage with their bodyif that's not what they're
interested in doing.
Paula (14:50):
All right. Well, that's a good segue actually into another
big topic that I want to touchon which is pornography, because
there could be a a situationwith the discrepancy of desire
where the partners agree thatthe higher sex drive person is
free to watch pornography andmasturbate on their own. But a
(15:15):
lot of couples can struggle withthis. And so can you speak to
pornography kind of again, thatcould be a whole episode in and
of itself? But can you speak tothat and kind of how it plays
out with couples? Yeah,
Keeley (15:28):
porn is such an interesting and interesting
space. And I agree, we could doa full huge episode on the
pitfalls and also the valuesthat porn can bring into a
couple's life. You know, I thinkwhat's important for each
individual person is to assesstheir own relationship with
porn, the fears that they mighthave, or the concerns that they
(15:50):
might have, and be able to voicethat in the room. And also for
you know, I think what happenswith porn is that it becomes a
place that someone goes, this isthe actual problem with porn is
that when we come to a placethat someone goes to avoid being
intimate and sexual with theirpartner, so they're thinking
(16:12):
like, Oh, I'm turned on andfeeling sexy, I could approach
my partner, but I'm not surethere's a lot of stuff going on
over there. I'm just gonna go toporn. And that happens over and
over and over again. And thenporn takes the place of the
actual partnership. And that'swhere I've see porn becoming an
actual problem in a in aperson's life or in a couple.
Paula (16:33):
Do you also see our assistance? I do also see it
becoming a problem when maybewhat people see in pornography
starts to affect and maybeyou're already going there, but
sources effect theirexpectations of their partner or
even their expectations ofthemselves. And what they
should, should finger quotes bedoing? Yeah, so please, get
(16:56):
hardener.
Keeley (16:58):
Yeah. The impact that the pornography industry and I
actually consult for the adultfilm industry, so I, I, I
actually see a lot of value inthe adult film industry from a
standpoint of education. Andthere are huge pitfalls just
based on the way that it's made,which is to be an entertaining
(17:20):
experience for you. And sothere's a lot edited, there's a
lot cut, these are, you know,actual performers performing.
And so people see it and think,Oh, this is how sexy is supposed
to be. And it turns me on andsaid, This must be what turns me
on. And then they start to thinkin their heads during neurotic
experience, I'm going torecreate what I saw that turned
(17:44):
me on. And there's nothing wrongwith that, as long as we're
talking to our partner aboutwhat we're trying to recreate
and assessing if that feels sexyto them. One of the things I
think that can be interestingabout porn, is to actually bring
it to our partners and say, hey,you know, this is something that
I think is sexy? Like, let,would you be open to watching it
(18:07):
with me and seeing if you thinkit's sexy, or turn on? Or, you
know, have you ever watchedanything? Do you want to explore
some stuff, and maybe we canbring a video or two to each
other next week after we look atsome things that we think are
sexy, because it could actuallybe this opening of like, what do
we find interesting, and you canlearn so much about your partner
(18:28):
because like, that person showsup with a video that's, you
know, one person just moaning onthe ground, you know, maybe in
their underwear, and that's whatthey think is sexy. I mean, you
were probably thinking they werethinking of something else like
there can be there's so muchvariation actually in the adult
film industry. And there isethical porn, because I think a
(18:49):
lot of people struggle also withpornography is the unethical
parts of it. People ended up inthat. Well, that's a perfect
segue
Paula (18:57):
actually into what you just said into talking about
kind of sexual desires andfantasies, and, and kind of
taking advantage of this newphase in your relationship as a
opportunity to explore maybesome desires and fantasies that
you weren't willing to explorepreviously. Or maybe you maybe
(19:19):
weren't, and you want to explorethem again. But think your idea
of Oh, can we show each other avideo of what we think is sexy?
Could be could be something thathelps couples talk about their
desires, their fantasies, right?
Can you say more about startingthat conversation? Cuz I think a
(19:40):
lot of people feel hesitant,self conscious, think they'll be
judged. So aside from the videoidea, which we're going to bring
that one back as we wrap uplater, but how would you suggest
that couples kind of start thatconversation
Keeley (20:00):
Yes, so it's my belief, actually, that the fantasies or
our desires in our heads is themental sexual movies that we
make are more vulnerable or aresort of the most vulnerable
spaces, we can go in the eroticlandscape, because they're
(20:22):
telling something about who weare on the inside. And what that
means is that as thatinformation gets shared,
oftentimes, there as we getcloser and closer and closer to
the core of that vulnerableplace, it becomes a new
vulnerability, the, you know,the, the more fear shows up
(20:45):
inside of us. And so I thinkwhat ends up happening in
couples is that they sharesomething a little tidbit, and
the other partner doesn't reallyknow that they're sharing
something that's in this space,right? And they really make fun
of it, or laugh at it ordisregard it. And that person
(21:06):
feels like oh, they're not goingto accept me. They just poked
fun at something I thought wassexy, and then you wrap it up,
and you shove it down, and younever bring it back up out of
fear of the judgement.
Paula (21:18):
Right? And that judgment, this just to interject that
judgment can be what you whatyou're interested in is weird or
wrong or crazy or whatever. Butit can also be slipped by which
is that this nothing what you'reinterested in? That's not that's
not a big, big deal, or that'snot I don't even find that very
(21:41):
sexy. I think it weighs, right.
Keeley (21:44):
That's not sexy to me, or yeah, that disregarded not
hearing about it can
Paula (21:49):
also that is not enough.
That's not right.
Keeley (21:54):
Right, if you have one partner who's like a little more
fantasy advanced sort of talkabout is like they're more
advanced in their fantasyschemas, and the other one is
just working on it. And that onewho's just working on it brings
something forward that feelsvulnerable and scary for them.
And that other person's like,that's no big deal. Like that
can actually make people feelthere's there's not space for
(22:17):
them. So it's a it's a,
Paula (22:19):
it's embarrassing, I would absolutely,
Keeley (22:22):
it can be very embarrassing for that person to
come forward. So I think thebiggest piece of fantasy is to
when we hear anything thatsounds like a desire a request a
fantasy, because the paucity ofcuriosity, perfect, a person
receiving that if you'rereceiving that, the best thing
(22:43):
to say is thank you so much fortelling me that. And then if
you're feel fear, or you feel alittle discomfort, just notice
that within yourself and startto ask more questions. If it
feels sexy to you, you can saythat. Well, that's really sexy
for me to know. But the firstthing we want to say right away
is thank you for telling me thatbecause it allows you the person
(23:03):
to feel like okay, they heardme, they're receiving it. That's
a really important part.
Paula (23:13):
Hey, just a quick break in this interview, to let you
know about one other freeresources available at
practically married.net.
Download our 10 Questionschecklist. So you and your
partner can answer questionsfrom each of the 10 practically
marry subjects, including money,sex, in laws and more. After you
answer all the questions, sendme a DM at gate practically
(23:35):
married and let me know how itwent. Okay, back to our
conversation. So if you were theperson who wanted to bring
something up, kind of can yougive us some language on how you
might do that with a partner?
Keeley (23:53):
Yeah, well, I'll talk first about my pet peeve of
fantasy, because it's a huge petpeeve of mine, and I'm so you
know, what normally happens issomeone is like, Oh, I'm gonna
bring up fantasy in myrelationship, my marriage, we're
gonna start talking aboutfantasies. So they come into
their relationship, and they'relike, maybe laying in bed. Tell
me about some of your fantasies.
That is my biggest pet peevebecause what happens is it takes
(24:16):
all the vulnerability off of youand it just shoves it onto your
partner. It just says like, yougo first. Okay, you tell me what
is sexy to you. Because I wantto know, out of the blue
oftentimes. And then that personknows sort of like most of the
time taken back, maybe sharesomething out of just pressure,
(24:37):
and then they really neverrevisited again, because it's
kind of just awkward. So what Inormally say to people is like
this is a space you're curiousto explore, which at one point
most likely in a long termrelationship will be very
important that you move towardsyou. You bring it up outside of
the bedroom and you say, Hey,I've been thinking about this
(24:58):
tires and fantasies andcuriosities. And when you're
ready, I'd love to talk aboutit. If that's then or when that
happens, you go first with someof yours. You share first. Yeah,
I would love to share first. Andwhen you're ready, you can share
with me. So some of the things Iguess,
Paula (25:18):
let me just gonna stop you for a second to highlight a
couple of things you said, yousay, if you're ready to hear it,
if you're ready to hear it,number one, right? Because
somebody might not be in a spacewhere they're receptive,
Keeley (25:33):
right? By lunch in the morning, or whatever they
Paula (25:37):
got on their mind, or they're like, I'm trying to pick
up the get out the door, like,you know, if you're ready. And
the other thing you said was, soif, if I'm the person who wants
to bring it up, I share first,but then I have to be prepared
for that person not to be readyto share in return. Absolutely.
Because a lot of times we dobring something up with the
(26:01):
unspoken expectation or desirethat we what we really want is
the other person to say, so I'mgoing to say something, but
really, I'm trying to figure outwhat your say. And your point
about, not only when you'reready to hear it, but then also
when you're ready to respond, Ithink, just want to, you know,
put a spotlight on that. Sorryto answer answer. Yeah. Okay.
(26:21):
Absolutely. So it's veryimportant. So you're saying so,
I've been thinking about this?
Are you ready? You know, to hearit? Assuming they are? Okay, go
ahead, then we share.
Keeley (26:34):
We can say that, you know, what's true about the
realm of fantasy andanticipation and desires is that
some people have a greatattunement to that part of
themselves. And other peoplereally are not in living in that
space at all. Some folks are notconnected to that realm of
(26:58):
thinking. They don't movethrough the world, acknowledging
or feeling into sexualfantasies. And so if you ask
them, what's your sexualfantasy, they they actually
don't have an answer, becausethey've never really thought
about it. And it can be veryconfusing for the person who's
(27:21):
asking about fantasies, who hasthis laundry list of fantasy
array, to understand thatthere's another person that
they've been close with thatdoesn't have any, but it's
actually more often the casethat the person who's hemming
and hawing about sharing, it'snot that they don't want to
share because of thevulnerability, although that can
absolutely be the case. But itcan also really sometimes be
(27:44):
that they just don't haveaccess, they have never made
space for that part ofthemselves. And so this process
of discussing fantasy anddesires more becomes a wow,
let's be curious, what's inthere for you? What would be
sexy for you? Let's spend thenext three, five years, because
(28:04):
that's really how long it takes,right? Being curious about what
are some things that feel sexythat captivate you, in your
mind. And I think one reallyimportant thing to understand
about fantasy, or people arewatching this video is like, if
you draw straight line, and tothe left is on the bottom, like
(28:24):
on that straight line would bethings you want to do before you
die in the erotic realm. And onthe far right would be things
that you know, you never want todo, like you find them sexy, but
you're never going to do that inreal life. It's just gonna live
inside of your brain. And if youfanned out across the middle, in
there is all of these differentspaces of things like, yeah, I
(28:46):
would be maybe interested indoing it real life, but I'm not
entirely sure. And so fantasylives in this space of like,
I've got to do it. I'm nevergoing to do it ever gotten clear
on that? And there's a lot ofstuff in the middle. I
Paula (28:58):
have seen lists. And you know, I'm thinking we could
provide one of a variety of whatI guess sexual acts sexual
scenarios, right? And with kindof a yes, no, maybe. Yeah. And
would you recommend that that's,that could be something because
it is on the page, as what Ifind if it's on page, then
(29:22):
almost this third party isasking the question, if I asked
you, if you're interested inthis particular act, then you're
you may assume that like, I'minterested in it, or I don't, I
may feel vulnerable. But if thisquestion on a page asks, then
I'm kind of absolved of anyresponsibility for bringing it
(29:43):
up. And I that is, maybe that'snot as brave bold or, or you
know, communicative, but itcould bring up the subject in a
way that made me feel safer.
Keeley (29:56):
However, people need to get there. Whatever. The
interrupt is, is fantastic.
There is no right or wrong way.
I
Paula (30:06):
think it's important.
Before we move on to say thataround sexual fantasies and
desires, there has to beconversation around boundaries,
right and around respecting oneanother's boundaries. And you
know, a lot of people talk abouthaving a safe word. I don't know
if a safe word is more somethingwe hear about, like in movies,
or TV and different kind ofjokes, and how much people
(30:29):
actually use a safe word, youknow, banana peel or something,
but is so important to feel thattrust that you know, that if
something, and for some peoplethis may go without saying, but
if something that I previouslysaid I was into, or that I
wanted to try, I now in themoment, don't feel that way, I
(30:51):
need to feel confident that mypartner will stop in that
moment, and not feel like oh,you just need some
encouragement? Or oh, let's justgo a little further. Right? I
mean, no.
Keeley (31:08):
You just Yes. When you're talking people into
things, if that's not a part ofthe script that's being played
out, which is why safe wordscome in? Safe words come in. And
in the BDSM scene, when you'replaying in high impact,
emotional or physical spaces? Orwhen you're playing in scripts
(31:30):
were? No is on the table as apart of the sexy scene? No, no,
don't touch me. I don't want youto touch me, don't touch me, or
even could be more aggressivethan that. But that's part of
the scene, or the fantasy that'splaying out. And because no is a
part of that scene, you have asafe word that you would use to
stop the scene, right? Becausethat's a different word, right?
(31:52):
It's not no doesn't mean no, inthat instance. Right? Yeah.
Good.
Paula (31:56):
That's a good point. And I think ultimately, you made the
point about it can take years,years. And, and the beauty is
you have years, if you'recommitted to a future together,
you have yours. So don't feelrushed, and start where you are,
and expand there. You don't haveto go from zero to 60. Cuz
(32:18):
you're newlyweds and now youjust do it all. Just, you could
gradually expand the circle ofwhat is comfortable to you. And
the
Keeley (32:27):
most important thing I will say this, and I say this to
my couples that I work with, ifyou're the one who has more
connection to your fantasies, bethe best cheerleader you can to
the person who's learning abouttheirs. This is not a shaming,
they're not going to go fasterby you pushing them aggressing
them. It's really can you bethere as like, That's so
(32:50):
awesome. I mean, not to anannoying point. But cool, like,
I can't wait to learn more, orthat's great. You're learning
that about yourself, like tellme if more stuff comes up like
this open space. And sometimesyou do have to ask like, Hey,
honey, I'm talking about yourfantasies. And while we've been
talking about that, like youwant to, is there anything you
want to share? Like, I'd love tohear about it. And when people
(33:12):
do share again, that thank youso much for sharing, and love
learning about you. It's reallyinteresting, or thank you so
much for sharing, asking morequestions. And you can say,
again, in that list offantasies, there's things we
want to do things we don't wantto do. You can say like, that
sounds sexy, but I'm not sure Iever want to try that in real
life. That's okay, too.
Paula (33:34):
Well, one thing I want to touch on before we wrap up
today, and I will say actuallymore than touch on because I
think this is kind of the greatfear one of the fears that
couples have is they may go intotheir marriage, or do you know,
their commitment, like at a timewhen their their sex life is
great and exciting. And, and theconcern is what what happens
(33:58):
when we, if and when we havesexual challenges? And it's
probably I'll leave this to youto say for sure, but it's
probably a matter of when andnot if then they'll
Keeley (34:10):
say that yes. Okay, when they meet a sexual challenge.
Right. Right.
Paula (34:15):
And so I just kind of want to go through some of the
common ones and just speak tothem if we can I want to start
off by talking about physicalissues.
Keeley (34:24):
Yeah, performance issues. Right. So we primarily
talk about performance struggleswith men. In straight couples,
the focus is on vaginalintercourse, and that requires
one person to become erect and,and stay erect. And if you know,
for various purposes, reasons,babies concluded, you know,
Paula (34:45):
that's important to gay men as well. So
Keeley (34:50):
you know, it's interesting, it depends on the
type of sex that they're having.
Whether or not you know,typically, yeah, it really just
depends there. really depends.
All right?
Paula (35:01):
Well, I don't want to make any assumptions. But I just
want to leave them out when itcomes to the issue of
performance,
Keeley (35:07):
right and erect. Yes, absolutely. All men, well, we
can also just blanket it withall men at some point will
experience in their life, a timewhere their genitals to not
engage with the experience theway that they would want it to.
And that is normal, fine, mostof the time, not a big deal. But
(35:27):
if it starts happening on aregular basis, if it's some so
the three main performancestruggles that men experience
are erectile dysfunction, whichis not being able to get erect,
delayed ejaculation, which isbeing erect, but not being able
to release into the ejaculationand premature ejaculation or
early ejaculation. And as I liketo refer to it, which is
(35:48):
releasing before you're born,they want to write. And, you
know, I think the first thing toaddress is the medical concern
for a specifically erectiledysfunction. If suddenly, you
start to experience erectiledysfunction, or it's any point
you start to experience rectaldysfunction, you do want to see
a medical doctor, it can be oneof the first indicators of heart
disease, even if you're healthy,it is very important to go and
(36:11):
have your heart checked, becauseit can mean things that that
need to be looked at by amedical professional. And the
truth is, with any of these, youcan absolutely go and see your
medical doctor. Most of thetime, they're not going to the
delayed ejaculation. They're notgoing to know what to do with
you in a medical setting and thepremature ejaculation there.
(36:33):
There's not much they can do ina medical setting. But it is I
think, sometimes nice just tohave that medical check out make
sure you're okay. I guess thatwas their advocate. Right. As as
Americans with our health caresystem, a lot of us don't see
doctors, I think enough,actually. So I think it's a
really good place to start. Andhaving a conversation with your
(36:57):
your partner about what's goingon for you is really important.
And this is the same for womenas you age, vaginal dryness, not
being able to connect withpleasure or your orgasm. I also
think of that as performancestatus, although we don't talk
about it as much. But all ofthese pieces are really
important to be communicatingwith our partner like, hey,
something feels like it's goingon in my body. Have you noticed
(37:19):
something? All of those pieces?
Paula (37:21):
Yeah, has that I can imagine scenario, we're out of
some amount of embarrassment,maybe instead of addressing it
head on, there's a sexualwithdrawal, that then would make
a partner think, do you notdesire me anymore? Is there
someone else? Right?
Keeley (37:39):
Right. Or when someone experiences a performance
related struggle, the otherpartner feels like it's
personal. So suddenly, you'vebeen having sex with this person
for 10 years, and suddenly theycan't orgasm. It must be me.
It's because I put on weight.
It's because I bumped him lastweek about the milk jog. It's
you know, there's a way that wecan turn things into it to mean
(38:02):
something about our couple whichsometimes it is, there is a
there is things that can happenin couples that lend itself to
performance pieces. Andsometimes it has nothing to do
with a couple like we said itcan be medical related and it
can also just a personal space.
So it is really important to bediscussing in a non shaming, non
(38:24):
attacking non blaming way. Andtypically, it doesn't need to be
in that moment. It can be afteractually. Okay.
Paula (38:32):
Well, you talked about physical health as mortar mental
health, thankfully, in a lot ofways.
Keeley (38:38):
Certainly pandemic. Yes.
Paula (38:40):
And, I mean, it's good that we are focusing on it.
Unfortunately, we're focusing onit because there's just been a
rise in mental healthchallenges. So can you speak to
how that plays out in terms ofcouples in their sexuality?
Keeley (38:54):
Right. So I think we're mostly looking at depression and
anxiety, how that impactsperformance, which is it does it
absolutely will. antidepressantscan impact. Getting onto an
antidepressant it can impact howhard you get if you're able to
orgasm, which is actually aprescription that sometimes
(39:16):
medical doctors will prescribefor people who struggle with
early ejaculation is anantidepressant that will help it
help help you maintain, youknow, not orgasming,
essentially, because it's a sideeffect of the medication.
Paula (39:30):
All right, one thing I want to point out there. I have
a good friend who's apsychiatrists and what what she,
you know, pointed out and ofcourse, it stands to reason is
that, yes, antidepressants canaffect sexual desire. But what
can also affect sexual desire isbeing depressed. Oh, absolutely.
(39:51):
Hugely white. What you don'twant to do is assume that
medication is going to make yoursexual situation worse and avoid
seeing, seeing a doctor seeing amental health specialist,
because you're avoidingmedication, when when it's
possible that the medication canlift up your mood, such that you
(40:14):
may have desires. So don'twrite, you know, kind of you're
not, you shouldn't be selfdiagnosing and self treating?
Well, I think I might bedepressed. But I don't want to
go to a doctor because I don'twant to get on medication. We're
not here to give medical advice.
Right? What we're saying is, beit being on medication not being
on medication. This is again, aswe said about physical issues, a
(40:34):
decision and a conversation witha doctor. Right? This is not you
online self diagnosing.
Keeley (40:44):
No, yes, yes, definitely not with medication like that.
Yeah, because what's true is ifyou're feeling really depressed,
and you need a little helpgetting back to some place where
you feel balanced, thatmedication is going to actually
help you get there, and it willimprove your sex life, because
everything will be improving. Soassuming
Paula (41:06):
that we've we've kind of been screened for any kind of
physical issues, and any kind ofmental health issues, some of
the challenges that we mighthave our relationship issues. I
mean, that's, I would say,probably the most common
challenge if there's an issue inthe relationship that's causing
one or both partners to loseinterest.
Keeley (41:27):
Right? Right. Yeah, starting to shut down and then
feeling. You know, the, the mostimportant thing in any long term
relationship is safety. Ifsafety doesn't exist within the
couple of people don't feel likethey can be themselves, they can
say what's on their mind withoutbeing attacked or blamed or
shamed. It's really, really hardfor sex to continue in a couple
(41:51):
under those circumstances. Andthen once safety is assessed,
from there, we can start to lookat all these other pieces that
allow eroticism to flow, and howwe're either, you know, Emily
Nagurski talks about in herbook, the gas and the brakes.
Yes.
Paula (42:08):
So it's like, Come as you are, come as you are.
Keeley (42:11):
It's a great book is sort of, it's like, you know
what, you know, and sometimesit's gas and brakes. But
sometimes people just need tolearn how to take their foot off
the brake, to even you can't, ifyou have your foot on the brake
and the gas in the car, you'renot going nowhere. So sometimes
we've got to get people's feetoff the brakes. And sometimes
parts of that is internal selfwork. And other times it's the
(42:35):
relationship dynamic that'shappening, that's causing that
type of friction.
Paula (42:40):
So let's say couples are having these sexual challenges.
When is the time to look atmaybe seeing a sex therapist?
And can you talk a little bitabout what is sex therapy? How
does it differ from regularcouples therapy? And why would
somebody consider it?
Keeley (43:00):
Right? Right. So there's sex therapy, sex coaching, or
like sexual practitioners. And Ithink the main difference in
someone who has the word sex intheir practice is that they've
taken special trainings, youwould want to check that on
their website, just to makesure. And they are interested in
(43:21):
talking with you about thisparticular space. Most of my
referrals actually come fromfolks who are already in couples
therapy, traditional therapywith regular traditional
therapist who doesn't feelequipped to talk about sex, like
they may be able to talk aboutdiscrepancy or little things
(43:42):
here and there have the topic bethere. But because they're not
actually trained to explore thatarea, they run out of tools in
their toolkit pretty quickly.
Okay, that's not obviously, notevery traditional couples
therapist. There are definitelysome who have that, but not all
right. So
Paula (44:03):
if you're looking for someone look for that
specialized training, right,
Keeley (44:07):
that's really what that talks about is someone's
willingness to talk with youabout it there and then the
amount of skills that they'regoing to have in their bag that
sits beside them to be able topull it out and try on things
with you. Okay.
Paula (44:21):
Okay, well, you have given us some good stuff again
today, Keeley. Why don't we wrapup by giving the listeners kind
of some very specific kind ofactionable takeaways around how
they can take this next step inkind of broadening enhancing
their sex life together?
Keeley (44:40):
Great. I love that.
Where do we start? Well, Ithink, you know, one of the main
pieces that we want to be opento that we talked about today is
this fantasy space that actuallyincludes porn. I actually wrap
porn into the fantasyanticipation category. And so I
think One of the things we wantto think about in a long term
(45:01):
couple is how do we start tobring forward that vulnerability
of that place inside of us thatthinks things about us thinks
sexy thoughts. And so I thinkhaving that on our minds of
like, something we want to bringup with our partner, and start
this conversation around, whatare the things that are turned
(45:21):
that turn us on? And maybehaving a conversation around?
Like, are there things you know,you want to do before you die
that are in this category andthings maybe you know, you never
want to do but they turn you on,maybe something you watch in
porn that you think is sexy, butyou don't actually want to
engage with it in real life. Andhaving that conversation that
you so beautifully broke downfor me about coming and asking,
(45:43):
Hey, I want to talk aboutsomething about sexuality around
fantasies, let me know whenyou're ready, then bringing your
own fantasies forward and sayingI would love to know when you're
ready to share or have an opendiscussion with you about that?
Paula (45:59):
Yes. Well, I was only highlighting your words in that
one. So you get all the creditthere. But why I think that is a
great place for couples tostart. I think we can't, we
can't emphasize enough that thisis a this is a marathon, not a
sprint. I know that's a cliche,but it just applies here. You
(46:22):
have belong time to explore yoursexuality and and take your
time.
Keeley (46:29):
Absolutely.
Paula (46:31):
Yes, take your time and enjoy each other. Well, Katie,
thank you so much for joiningus. Again, like I say we we
couldn't have gotten all of thisin one episode. And and there's
more to talk about, but at leastI think we've given couples with
no the two episodes a reallygood place to start. And I say
start because in some respectsuse this time your relationship
(46:55):
to start over in exploring yoursexuality, leaving assumptions
behind, right. And having thoseconversations a new, almost like
you're getting a new partnerwhen you approach them with the
curiosity that you would withsomeone new in this new phase of
your relationship and love that.
So thank you so much.
Keeley (47:19):
You're very welcome.
Paula (47:23):
To learn more about Kelly's work, visit Keeling
rankin.com. You can also followher on Instagram at Kelly Rankin
sex coach. And on Facebook atKeeley Rankin Ma. I'll have all
these links in the show notes.
(47:50):
Thanks for joining us this week.
If you like what you hear,subscribe to practically marry
wherever you get your podcasts.
You can also follow the show onInstagram at get practically
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(48:13):
way to support the show would beto tell someone about it. Tell
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That's all for now. Have a goodone.
If you didn't get enough sex last week, there's even more
(00:03):
today. All right, let's get intoit
Welcome to practically married.
The podcast created to helpdating engaged and newly married
(00:25):
couples prepare for healthy longterm committed relationships.
I'm Paula Holt. And on thisshow, I'm going to bring you
conversations with experts whowill give you tools to take your
relationship to the next level.
Although many of our guests willbe therapists, please keep in
(00:45):
mind that practically married isfor educational purposes only,
and is not a substitute fortherapy with a licensed
professional. Hi, thanks forjoining me today. Before we get
into the interview, I want toreally encourage you to use this
podcast as a catalyst forconversations with your partner,
(01:08):
especially on a subject like sixthat many partners have a hard
time talking about. You can say,Hey, I heard this podcast and
then fill in the blank. Or likemy guests Keeley Rankin
suggested. Just send yourpartner the podcast and say,
we'd love to hear your thoughts.
Whatever it takes, I'm hopingyou'll get the conversation
(01:29):
going. And speaking ofconversations, I'm excited to
have sex and relationship coachKeeley Rankin, come back to
continue the conversation westarted last week. Keeley has a
Master's in CounselingPsychology with a focus on
marriage and family therapy.
She's a specialist in the fieldof male sexual struggles. And
(01:50):
she has a passion for helpingcouples find and expand
pleasure. And on top of all ofthat, I just really enjoy
talking to her about sex. Solet's welcome Keeley Rankin back
to the show. Hi, Kelly, welcomeback to the practically married
podcast.
Keeley (02:09):
Hi, I'm so excited to be back here for our second talk
today.
Paula (02:14):
I know I know. We're lucky actually to have you come
back because you sex is just asuch a big topic and
relationships and in marriagethat there was just no way we
could do it all. In one episode.
I'm not even sure we can do itall in two episodes, but we're
going to give it our best shot.
Yeah. Yeah, well, I guess thefirst thing I want to do is kind
(02:36):
of recap a few of the thingsthat we talked about last time,
because they really arefoundational to this
conversation. And I wouldencourage listeners to go back
if you're coming into thisepisode to go back and listen to
that one first, because I askedwhere you really helped us lay
the groundwork for theconversation that we're going to
have today we talked about justreimagining how we define sex,
(03:00):
especially when it comes tostraight couples. We talked
about sexual history and whatthat means in terms of messages
you receive growing up, but alsoyour sexual history with past
partners. And we get into anentered interesting discussion
around bringing up past partnerswith your current partner
message tread lightly.
Definitely go back and listen tothat part before you dive in.
(03:23):
Right. And then we talked aboutkind of exploring your sexuality
as to individuals. We thinkabout this as a couple issue
oftentimes, but you know, yoursexuality is something that you
bring to the relationship as anindividual. And it's important
to, to explore that. And wetalked about some of the ways to
(03:43):
do that. So definitely, youtouched on a lot of interesting
things. So since we laid thegroundwork for account of the
past, and moving into thePresident in the past episode, I
want us to focus on the futurekind of the you know, what
couples kind of have to lookforward to how they can build an
even more exciting and healthysex life. And then also touch on
(04:06):
some of the potential stumblingblocks and how to deal with
those apps the same. I guess thefirst thing I want to address
and maybe it's a little bit of apet peeve of mine, but I think
married sex gets a bad rap. Iknow. Okay, you had a big
reaction. Why don't you speak onthat and then out? I'll jump in.
(04:28):
Yeah, well, I think
Keeley (04:31):
that there's a way that in our culture, well, I think
there's a lot of components toit. There's ageism, right, like
people who are a little bitolder and having great sex or
aren't sexual, which is entirelynot true. And I think actually
most people start having waybetter sex as they get older.
They know their bodies betterthey're a better able to
(04:52):
communicate, they're, they'reless concerned about vanity,
things like that. Lots ofcouples are still sexually
interested in each other. Other1020 3040 years, 50 years into a
marriage, they're still in love.
They're curious. They like theirpartner, they like their
partner's body. And I thinkthose voices just aren't as loud
as the ones who are not happy.
(05:15):
The
Paula (05:15):
other thing, and I call this an issue of causation and
correlation. And what I mean bythat is, I think a lot of people
a lot of stand up comedians,maybe, although I love stand up,
but talk about like, as ifmarriage causes a decline in
sexual activity. And I thinkthat sometimes marriage
(05:37):
correlates with a reduced amountof sex, or maybe some sexual
challenges. Because if you aremarried over a period of time,
right life causes some changesin your, in your sexual
frequency. You have, you mayhave, you know, physical issues,
you may have a mortgage and acareer with a lot weighing on
(05:59):
it, you may have children, andso, right, and just life
stresses, stresses, agingparents, all of the things that
come with getting older in lifeperiod, it just so happens that
if you're married, those thingsare happening in your marriage.
But I just want people to bereally careful about confusing
marriage causing that andmarriage being correlated with
(06:22):
that. Right? I love maybe that'sa little bit of my psychology. A
little bit my sociology andstatistics background on that
one, but we cannot confuse thosetwo. So that being said, let's
talk about a few of the thingsthat we're hearing about a lot
these days around marriage andsex. And the one that I'm seeing
(06:44):
a lot right now is issues aroundmonogamy or not even issues
around monogamy. But the topicof monogamy question
specifically the question, andspecifically monogamy and non
monogamy. Right? I want you tospeak to that, first of all,
because I think some people havea misconception about what non
monogamy actually is, and whatit means and what it requires in
(07:09):
a relationship and just that,that it's even a choice, because
monogamy for some people may bea given but it is ultimately a
choice that you know, two peoplehave to make. So I let you speak
to that.
Keeley (07:22):
Right, I would say an active ongoing choice that if
we're in an agreement with ourpartner that we don't sleep with
other people have sex with otherpeople fall in love with other
people are romantic with otherpeople outside of our primary
relationship is often somethingthat we do have to continue to
return to to say this is thechoice that I've made, and I
continue to make it. You know,it's interesting. Esther Perel,
(07:44):
who's a really popular sextherapist in New York City says,
you know, pretty much if you'veever unless you're only romantic
and sexual with one person yourwhole life, you are non
monogamous. And so this ideathat couples are monogamous is,
you know, we're choosing to bemonogamous at that time. But if
(08:04):
we've already jumped from onepartner to the next, we're
technically not in terms of thehurt her definition of it. Okay.
But I think what we're talkingabout here is how, what kind of
choices are we making aroundcommitment sexually in our
couple? And, you know, thatcomes down to what are the types
of things that make I think ourcouples special, and for most
(08:27):
people, the thing that they dothat separates them from
friendship, or family is sex,there's a type of intimacy and
closeness that comes with thatromantic physical expression of
our sexuality and that type oftouch with clothes off and
kissing and closeness. And so inthat, oftentimes, which is
(08:48):
mostly passed down throughChristianity, is this idea of
like, we only have sex with oneperson. And it brings a lot and
I think for a very long time, itwas just a given people would
just assume when we decide to beboyfriend, girlfriend, that
means sexual exclusivity. And Ithink a lot of couples are
(09:09):
starting to ask if that's reallywhat works for them, if that's
working for their couple forthem individually, if that's
what's making them feel aliveand and content in the couple.
So when I think of what is itmean to step outside the bounds
of monogamy? It's just thisquestion of like, how or if we
(09:30):
let other people's energy in andhow much, you know. I have a
very relaxed view of the spaceof non monogamy or open
relationships. It's sort oflike, can we talk about I think
you actually are starting tostep out of it. When you say can
we talk about crushes that wehave? Like I had a crush on this
(09:52):
person that I saw at the coffeeshop, they were really sexy, I
had a sexual fantasy about them,or I have a crush on this person
at work. or, or this new friendthat we've met? Right that I
actually believe that that isstepping outside the space of
just monogamy as probably apretty relaxed you I think most
people think of it as startingto engage in physical right. And
(10:16):
or active emotionalrelationships that are leading
towards a romantic sphere.
Paula (10:22):
Right? Well, I think the biggest thing that, you know,
has to be mentioned is the ideaof consent and that it is
consensual between the twopartners. Right, that is what
distinguishes non monogamy frominfidelity, right? Yes. And
people need to be clear on that.
Right, because
Keeley (10:44):
actually, infidelity still happens in non monogamous
couples, which is really tricky,right? really tricky, right? It
requires a lot of work toactually be fully honest about
what's happening if you'rechoosing that route. And a lot
of the couples that I work withwho come to see me because
they're starting to think aboutthis, many of them throw the
(11:04):
towel in and just say it's toocomplicated. There's too much,
there's too many conversationswe have to have, there's too
much negotiation, it's just too,it's just more energy than we
want to spend on this. So
Paula (11:16):
one thing I want to mention before we move on is,
and I'm sure you would say this,it is not a fix for problems in
your relationship. No, it takesreally, it takes being in a very
good position with yourrelationship and the ability to
communicate with each other. Soagain, it is not a fix for
(11:37):
sexual challenges in yourrelationship, I want to pivot to
an issue that that comes up alot, and for some people may be
a reason why they consider nonmonogamy is different levels of
desire. Can you talk about thata little bit? Because I think
people automatically assume thatthat's a problem. But I can
(11:59):
certainly see where it would notbe a problem. If the couple kind
of handles it in in ways thatare both people are satisfying
their needs. Can you speak tothat a little bit?
Keeley (12:10):
Yeah, well, I think you actually spoke to it quite well,
in the beginning of ourrecording here, which is that in
a long term couple life ishappening. people's parents are
getting sick, people lose theirjobs. And so our relationship
with our desire for physicalintimacy will shift over time,
(12:33):
which means it's not going toshift in accordance with your
partner, you guys are going tohave differing set points during
different periods of your life.
And, and so I think normalizingthat, but it's called desire
discrepancy is a completelynormal part of a long term
relationship. And it has more todo with how we start to talk
about it, and how we share witheach other our needs and respect
(12:55):
and hold space and see where wecan make inroads. So one, you
know, typically one person wantsmore sex and one person wants
less sex, again, which isnormal. And it's sort of
figuring out like, is there aplace that we can meet in the
middle where both people willfind satisfaction. And you know,
masturbation is always a reallygreat avenue for people who have
(13:17):
higher desire. But what's alsotrue is the person with higher
desire often really wants thatphysical contact, that type of
special connection that intimacyoffers. And so sometimes it's
also figuring out what are otherways that we can explore in that
realm of sex when we defined itearly on, in our last podcast,
right? What else is in therethat could start to feel like
(13:41):
this person is still gettingsome of their needs met? Right?
Without forcing the other personwho's, you know, not feeling
super into it right now? It'sjust a dance.
Paula (13:52):
Right? Well, it could be a situation maybe where one
party one party, these thisisn't a legal issue, but when
one partner is is present, maybewhile the other partner,
moderates. So it's like, I don'thave to be actively engaged in
it. Right. But I'm there to bepresent with you. Right? Wow.
(14:13):
Yeah, you pleasure yourself.
Keeley (14:16):
Right? And like, Am I happy to be in the room or I'm,
it's okay. If I'm taking ashower and you want to watch me
or I'm going to do yoga, and youcan watch me or yeah, I'll place
my hand on your back and or I'llrub your feet or, you know,
yeah, there's lots of ways tonavigate the act of masturbation
or self pleasure, whichtypically means orgasm, that
route to orgasm with the otherperson. They are present. I
(14:39):
normally use the term witness, Iguess we're straight in the
courtroom, but witnessing theirperson, right, but not actively
having to engage with their bodyif that's not what they're
interested in doing.
Paula (14:50):
All right. Well, that's a good segue actually into another
big topic that I want to touchon which is pornography, because
there could be a a situationwith the discrepancy of desire
where the partners agree thatthe higher sex drive person is
free to watch pornography andmasturbate on their own. But a
(15:15):
lot of couples can struggle withthis. And so can you speak to
pornography kind of again, thatcould be a whole episode in and
of itself? But can you speak tothat and kind of how it plays
out with couples? Yeah,
Keeley (15:28):
porn is such an interesting and interesting
space. And I agree, we could doa full huge episode on the
pitfalls and also the valuesthat porn can bring into a
couple's life. You know, I thinkwhat's important for each
individual person is to assesstheir own relationship with
porn, the fears that they mighthave, or the concerns that they
(15:50):
might have, and be able to voicethat in the room. And also for
you know, I think what happenswith porn is that it becomes a
place that someone goes, this isthe actual problem with porn is
that when we come to a placethat someone goes to avoid being
intimate and sexual with theirpartner, so they're thinking
(16:12):
like, Oh, I'm turned on andfeeling sexy, I could approach
my partner, but I'm not surethere's a lot of stuff going on
over there. I'm just gonna go toporn. And that happens over and
over and over again. And thenporn takes the place of the
actual partnership. And that'swhere I've see porn becoming an
actual problem in a in aperson's life or in a couple.
Paula (16:33):
Do you also see our assistance? I do also see it
becoming a problem when maybewhat people see in pornography
starts to affect and maybeyou're already going there, but
sources effect theirexpectations of their partner or
even their expectations ofthemselves. And what they
should, should finger quotes bedoing? Yeah, so please, get
(16:56):
hardener.
Keeley (16:58):
Yeah. The impact that the pornography industry and I
actually consult for the adultfilm industry, so I, I, I
actually see a lot of value inthe adult film industry from a
standpoint of education. Andthere are huge pitfalls just
based on the way that it's made,which is to be an entertaining
(17:20):
experience for you. And sothere's a lot edited, there's a
lot cut, these are, you know,actual performers performing.
And so people see it and think,Oh, this is how sexy is supposed
to be. And it turns me on andsaid, This must be what turns me
on. And then they start to thinkin their heads during neurotic
experience, I'm going torecreate what I saw that turned
(17:44):
me on. And there's nothing wrongwith that, as long as we're
talking to our partner aboutwhat we're trying to recreate
and assessing if that feels sexyto them. One of the things I
think that can be interestingabout porn, is to actually bring
it to our partners and say, hey,you know, this is something that
I think is sexy? Like, let,would you be open to watching it
(18:07):
with me and seeing if you thinkit's sexy, or turn on? Or, you
know, have you ever watchedanything? Do you want to explore
some stuff, and maybe we canbring a video or two to each
other next week after we look atsome things that we think are
sexy, because it could actuallybe this opening of like, what do
we find interesting, and you canlearn so much about your partner
(18:28):
because like, that person showsup with a video that's, you
know, one person just moaning onthe ground, you know, maybe in
their underwear, and that's whatthey think is sexy. I mean, you
were probably thinking they werethinking of something else like
there can be there's so muchvariation actually in the adult
film industry. And there isethical porn, because I think a
(18:49):
lot of people struggle also withpornography is the unethical
parts of it. People ended up inthat. Well, that's a perfect
segue
Paula (18:57):
actually into what you just said into talking about
kind of sexual desires andfantasies, and, and kind of
taking advantage of this newphase in your relationship as a
opportunity to explore maybesome desires and fantasies that
you weren't willing to explorepreviously. Or maybe you maybe
(19:19):
weren't, and you want to explorethem again. But think your idea
of Oh, can we show each other avideo of what we think is sexy?
Could be could be something thathelps couples talk about their
desires, their fantasies, right?
Can you say more about startingthat conversation? Cuz I think a
(19:40):
lot of people feel hesitant,self conscious, think they'll be
judged. So aside from the videoidea, which we're going to bring
that one back as we wrap uplater, but how would you suggest
that couples kind of start thatconversation
Keeley (20:00):
Yes, so it's my belief, actually, that the fantasies or
our desires in our heads is themental sexual movies that we
make are more vulnerable or aresort of the most vulnerable
spaces, we can go in the eroticlandscape, because they're
(20:22):
telling something about who weare on the inside. And what that
means is that as thatinformation gets shared,
oftentimes, there as we getcloser and closer and closer to
the core of that vulnerableplace, it becomes a new
vulnerability, the, you know,the, the more fear shows up
(20:45):
inside of us. And so I thinkwhat ends up happening in
couples is that they sharesomething a little tidbit, and
the other partner doesn't reallyknow that they're sharing
something that's in this space,right? And they really make fun
of it, or laugh at it ordisregard it. And that person
(21:06):
feels like oh, they're not goingto accept me. They just poked
fun at something I thought wassexy, and then you wrap it up,
and you shove it down, and younever bring it back up out of
fear of the judgement.
Paula (21:18):
Right? And that judgment, this just to interject that
judgment can be what you whatyou're interested in is weird or
wrong or crazy or whatever. Butit can also be slipped by which
is that this nothing what you'reinterested in? That's not that's
not a big, big deal, or that'snot I don't even find that very
(21:41):
sexy. I think it weighs, right.
Keeley (21:44):
That's not sexy to me, or yeah, that disregarded not
hearing about it can
Paula (21:49):
also that is not enough.
That's not right.
Keeley (21:54):
Right, if you have one partner who's like a little more
fantasy advanced sort of talkabout is like they're more
advanced in their fantasyschemas, and the other one is
just working on it. And that onewho's just working on it brings
something forward that feelsvulnerable and scary for them.
And that other person's like,that's no big deal. Like that
can actually make people feelthere's there's not space for
(22:17):
them. So it's a it's a,
Paula (22:19):
it's embarrassing, I would absolutely,
Keeley (22:22):
it can be very embarrassing for that person to
come forward. So I think thebiggest piece of fantasy is to
when we hear anything thatsounds like a desire a request a
fantasy, because the paucity ofcuriosity, perfect, a person
receiving that if you'rereceiving that, the best thing
(22:43):
to say is thank you so much fortelling me that. And then if
you're feel fear, or you feel alittle discomfort, just notice
that within yourself and startto ask more questions. If it
feels sexy to you, you can saythat. Well, that's really sexy
for me to know. But the firstthing we want to say right away
is thank you for telling me thatbecause it allows you the person
(23:03):
to feel like okay, they heardme, they're receiving it. That's
a really important part.
Paula (23:13):
Hey, just a quick break in this interview, to let you
know about one other freeresources available at
practically married.net.
Download our 10 Questionschecklist. So you and your
partner can answer questionsfrom each of the 10 practically
marry subjects, including money,sex, in laws and more. After you
answer all the questions, sendme a DM at gate practically
(23:35):
married and let me know how itwent. Okay, back to our
conversation. So if you were theperson who wanted to bring
something up, kind of can yougive us some language on how you
might do that with a partner?
Keeley (23:53):
Yeah, well, I'll talk first about my pet peeve of
fantasy, because it's a huge petpeeve of mine, and I'm so you
know, what normally happens issomeone is like, Oh, I'm gonna
bring up fantasy in myrelationship, my marriage, we're
gonna start talking aboutfantasies. So they come into
their relationship, and they'relike, maybe laying in bed. Tell
me about some of your fantasies.
That is my biggest pet peevebecause what happens is it takes
(24:16):
all the vulnerability off of youand it just shoves it onto your
partner. It just says like, yougo first. Okay, you tell me what
is sexy to you. Because I wantto know, out of the blue
oftentimes. And then that personknows sort of like most of the
time taken back, maybe sharesomething out of just pressure,
(24:37):
and then they really neverrevisited again, because it's
kind of just awkward. So what Inormally say to people is like
this is a space you're curiousto explore, which at one point
most likely in a long termrelationship will be very
important that you move towardsyou. You bring it up outside of
the bedroom and you say, Hey,I've been thinking about this
(24:58):
tires and fantasies andcuriosities. And when you're
ready, I'd love to talk aboutit. If that's then or when that
happens, you go first with someof yours. You share first. Yeah,
I would love to share first. Andwhen you're ready, you can share
with me. So some of the things Iguess,
Paula (25:18):
let me just gonna stop you for a second to highlight a
couple of things you said, yousay, if you're ready to hear it,
if you're ready to hear it,number one, right? Because
somebody might not be in a spacewhere they're receptive,
Keeley (25:33):
right? By lunch in the morning, or whatever they
Paula (25:37):
got on their mind, or they're like, I'm trying to pick
up the get out the door, like,you know, if you're ready. And
the other thing you said was, soif, if I'm the person who wants
to bring it up, I share first,but then I have to be prepared
for that person not to be readyto share in return. Absolutely.
Because a lot of times we dobring something up with the
(26:01):
unspoken expectation or desirethat we what we really want is
the other person to say, so I'mgoing to say something, but
really, I'm trying to figure outwhat your say. And your point
about, not only when you'reready to hear it, but then also
when you're ready to respond, Ithink, just want to, you know,
put a spotlight on that. Sorryto answer answer. Yeah. Okay.
(26:21):
Absolutely. So it's veryimportant. So you're saying so,
I've been thinking about this?
Are you ready? You know, to hearit? Assuming they are? Okay, go
ahead, then we share.
Keeley (26:34):
We can say that, you know, what's true about the
realm of fantasy andanticipation and desires is that
some people have a greatattunement to that part of
themselves. And other peoplereally are not in living in that
space at all. Some folks are notconnected to that realm of
(26:58):
thinking. They don't movethrough the world, acknowledging
or feeling into sexualfantasies. And so if you ask
them, what's your sexualfantasy, they they actually
don't have an answer, becausethey've never really thought
about it. And it can be veryconfusing for the person who's
(27:21):
asking about fantasies, who hasthis laundry list of fantasy
array, to understand thatthere's another person that
they've been close with thatdoesn't have any, but it's
actually more often the casethat the person who's hemming
and hawing about sharing, it'snot that they don't want to
share because of thevulnerability, although that can
absolutely be the case. But itcan also really sometimes be
(27:44):
that they just don't haveaccess, they have never made
space for that part ofthemselves. And so this process
of discussing fantasy anddesires more becomes a wow,
let's be curious, what's inthere for you? What would be
sexy for you? Let's spend thenext three, five years, because
(28:04):
that's really how long it takes,right? Being curious about what
are some things that feel sexythat captivate you, in your
mind. And I think one reallyimportant thing to understand
about fantasy, or people arewatching this video is like, if
you draw straight line, and tothe left is on the bottom, like
(28:24):
on that straight line would bethings you want to do before you
die in the erotic realm. And onthe far right would be things
that you know, you never want todo, like you find them sexy, but
you're never going to do that inreal life. It's just gonna live
inside of your brain. And if youfanned out across the middle, in
there is all of these differentspaces of things like, yeah, I
(28:46):
would be maybe interested indoing it real life, but I'm not
entirely sure. And so fantasylives in this space of like,
I've got to do it. I'm nevergoing to do it ever gotten clear
on that? And there's a lot ofstuff in the middle. I
Paula (28:58):
have seen lists. And you know, I'm thinking we could
provide one of a variety of whatI guess sexual acts sexual
scenarios, right? And with kindof a yes, no, maybe. Yeah. And
would you recommend that that's,that could be something because
it is on the page, as what Ifind if it's on page, then
(29:22):
almost this third party isasking the question, if I asked
you, if you're interested inthis particular act, then you're
you may assume that like, I'minterested in it, or I don't, I
may feel vulnerable. But if thisquestion on a page asks, then
I'm kind of absolved of anyresponsibility for bringing it
(29:43):
up. And I that is, maybe that'snot as brave bold or, or you
know, communicative, but itcould bring up the subject in a
way that made me feel safer.
Keeley (29:56):
However, people need to get there. Whatever. The
interrupt is, is fantastic.
There is no right or wrong way.
I
Paula (30:06):
think it's important.
Before we move on to say thataround sexual fantasies and
desires, there has to beconversation around boundaries,
right and around respecting oneanother's boundaries. And you
know, a lot of people talk abouthaving a safe word. I don't know
if a safe word is more somethingwe hear about, like in movies,
or TV and different kind ofjokes, and how much people
(30:29):
actually use a safe word, youknow, banana peel or something,
but is so important to feel thattrust that you know, that if
something, and for some peoplethis may go without saying, but
if something that I previouslysaid I was into, or that I
wanted to try, I now in themoment, don't feel that way, I
(30:51):
need to feel confident that mypartner will stop in that
moment, and not feel like oh,you just need some
encouragement? Or oh, let's justgo a little further. Right? I
mean, no.
Keeley (31:08):
You just Yes. When you're talking people into
things, if that's not a part ofthe script that's being played
out, which is why safe wordscome in? Safe words come in. And
in the BDSM scene, when you'replaying in high impact,
emotional or physical spaces? Orwhen you're playing in scripts
(31:30):
were? No is on the table as apart of the sexy scene? No, no,
don't touch me. I don't want youto touch me, don't touch me, or
even could be more aggressivethan that. But that's part of
the scene, or the fantasy that'splaying out. And because no is a
part of that scene, you have asafe word that you would use to
stop the scene, right? Becausethat's a different word, right?
(31:52):
It's not no doesn't mean no, inthat instance. Right? Yeah.
Good.
Paula (31:56):
That's a good point. And I think ultimately, you made the
point about it can take years,years. And, and the beauty is
you have years, if you'recommitted to a future together,
you have yours. So don't feelrushed, and start where you are,
and expand there. You don't haveto go from zero to 60. Cuz
(32:18):
you're newlyweds and now youjust do it all. Just, you could
gradually expand the circle ofwhat is comfortable to you. And
the
Keeley (32:27):
most important thing I will say this, and I say this to
my couples that I work with, ifyou're the one who has more
connection to your fantasies, bethe best cheerleader you can to
the person who's learning abouttheirs. This is not a shaming,
they're not going to go fasterby you pushing them aggressing
them. It's really can you bethere as like, That's so
(32:50):
awesome. I mean, not to anannoying point. But cool, like,
I can't wait to learn more, orthat's great. You're learning
that about yourself, like tellme if more stuff comes up like
this open space. And sometimesyou do have to ask like, Hey,
honey, I'm talking about yourfantasies. And while we've been
talking about that, like youwant to, is there anything you
want to share? Like, I'd love tohear about it. And when people
(33:12):
do share again, that thank youso much for sharing, and love
learning about you. It's reallyinteresting, or thank you so
much for sharing, asking morequestions. And you can say,
again, in that list offantasies, there's things we
want to do things we don't wantto do. You can say like, that
sounds sexy, but I'm not sure Iever want to try that in real
life. That's okay, too.
Paula (33:34):
Well, one thing I want to touch on before we wrap up
today, and I will say actuallymore than touch on because I
think this is kind of the greatfear one of the fears that
couples have is they may go intotheir marriage, or do you know,
their commitment, like at a timewhen their their sex life is
great and exciting. And, and theconcern is what what happens
(33:58):
when we, if and when we havesexual challenges? And it's
probably I'll leave this to youto say for sure, but it's
probably a matter of when andnot if then they'll
Keeley (34:10):
say that yes. Okay, when they meet a sexual challenge.
Right. Right.
Paula (34:15):
And so I just kind of want to go through some of the
common ones and just speak tothem if we can I want to start
off by talking about physicalissues.
Keeley (34:24):
Yeah, performance issues. Right. So we primarily
talk about performance struggleswith men. In straight couples,
the focus is on vaginalintercourse, and that requires
one person to become erect and,and stay erect. And if you know,
for various purposes, reasons,babies concluded, you know,
Paula (34:45):
that's important to gay men as well. So
Keeley (34:50):
you know, it's interesting, it depends on the
type of sex that they're having.
Whether or not you know,typically, yeah, it really just
depends there. really depends.
All right?
Paula (35:01):
Well, I don't want to make any assumptions. But I just
want to leave them out when itcomes to the issue of
performance,
Keeley (35:07):
right and erect. Yes, absolutely. All men, well, we
can also just blanket it withall men at some point will
experience in their life, a timewhere their genitals to not
engage with the experience theway that they would want it to.
And that is normal, fine, mostof the time, not a big deal. But
(35:27):
if it starts happening on aregular basis, if it's some so
the three main performancestruggles that men experience
are erectile dysfunction, whichis not being able to get erect,
delayed ejaculation, which isbeing erect, but not being able
to release into the ejaculationand premature ejaculation or
early ejaculation. And as I liketo refer to it, which is
(35:48):
releasing before you're born,they want to write. And, you
know, I think the first thing toaddress is the medical concern
for a specifically erectiledysfunction. If suddenly, you
start to experience erectiledysfunction, or it's any point
you start to experience rectaldysfunction, you do want to see
a medical doctor, it can be oneof the first indicators of heart
disease, even if you're healthy,it is very important to go and
(36:11):
have your heart checked, becauseit can mean things that that
need to be looked at by amedical professional. And the
truth is, with any of these, youcan absolutely go and see your
medical doctor. Most of thetime, they're not going to the
delayed ejaculation. They're notgoing to know what to do with
you in a medical setting and thepremature ejaculation there.
(36:33):
There's not much they can do ina medical setting. But it is I
think, sometimes nice just tohave that medical check out make
sure you're okay. I guess thatwas their advocate. Right. As as
Americans with our health caresystem, a lot of us don't see
doctors, I think enough,actually. So I think it's a
really good place to start. Andhaving a conversation with your
(36:57):
your partner about what's goingon for you is really important.
And this is the same for womenas you age, vaginal dryness, not
being able to connect withpleasure or your orgasm. I also
think of that as performancestatus, although we don't talk
about it as much. But all ofthese pieces are really
important to be communicatingwith our partner like, hey,
something feels like it's goingon in my body. Have you noticed
(37:19):
something? All of those pieces?
Paula (37:21):
Yeah, has that I can imagine scenario, we're out of
some amount of embarrassment,maybe instead of addressing it
head on, there's a sexualwithdrawal, that then would make
a partner think, do you notdesire me anymore? Is there
someone else? Right?
Keeley (37:39):
Right. Or when someone experiences a performance
related struggle, the otherpartner feels like it's
personal. So suddenly, you'vebeen having sex with this person
for 10 years, and suddenly theycan't orgasm. It must be me.
It's because I put on weight.
It's because I bumped him lastweek about the milk jog. It's
you know, there's a way that wecan turn things into it to mean
(38:02):
something about our couple whichsometimes it is, there is a
there is things that can happenin couples that lend itself to
performance pieces. Andsometimes it has nothing to do
with a couple like we said itcan be medical related and it
can also just a personal space.
So it is really important to bediscussing in a non shaming, non
(38:24):
attacking non blaming way. Andtypically, it doesn't need to be
in that moment. It can be afteractually. Okay.
Paula (38:32):
Well, you talked about physical health as mortar mental
health, thankfully, in a lot ofways.
Keeley (38:38):
Certainly pandemic. Yes.
Paula (38:40):
And, I mean, it's good that we are focusing on it.
Unfortunately, we're focusing onit because there's just been a
rise in mental healthchallenges. So can you speak to
how that plays out in terms ofcouples in their sexuality?
Keeley (38:54):
Right. So I think we're mostly looking at depression and
anxiety, how that impactsperformance, which is it does it
absolutely will. antidepressantscan impact. Getting onto an
antidepressant it can impact howhard you get if you're able to
orgasm, which is actually aprescription that sometimes
(39:16):
medical doctors will prescribefor people who struggle with
early ejaculation is anantidepressant that will help it
help help you maintain, youknow, not orgasming,
essentially, because it's a sideeffect of the medication.
Paula (39:30):
All right, one thing I want to point out there. I have
a good friend who's apsychiatrists and what what she,
you know, pointed out and ofcourse, it stands to reason is
that, yes, antidepressants canaffect sexual desire. But what
can also affect sexual desire isbeing depressed. Oh, absolutely.
(39:51):
Hugely white. What you don'twant to do is assume that
medication is going to make yoursexual situation worse and avoid
seeing, seeing a doctor seeing amental health specialist,
because you're avoidingmedication, when when it's
possible that the medication canlift up your mood, such that you
(40:14):
may have desires. So don'twrite, you know, kind of you're
not, you shouldn't be selfdiagnosing and self treating?
Well, I think I might bedepressed. But I don't want to
go to a doctor because I don'twant to get on medication. We're
not here to give medical advice.
Right? What we're saying is, beit being on medication not being
on medication. This is again, aswe said about physical issues, a
(40:34):
decision and a conversation witha doctor. Right? This is not you
online self diagnosing.
Keeley (40:44):
No, yes, yes, definitely not with medication like that.
Yeah, because what's true is ifyou're feeling really depressed,
and you need a little helpgetting back to some place where
you feel balanced, thatmedication is going to actually
help you get there, and it willimprove your sex life, because
everything will be improving. Soassuming
Paula (41:06):
that we've we've kind of been screened for any kind of
physical issues, and any kind ofmental health issues, some of
the challenges that we mighthave our relationship issues. I
mean, that's, I would say,probably the most common
challenge if there's an issue inthe relationship that's causing
one or both partners to loseinterest.
Keeley (41:27):
Right? Right. Yeah, starting to shut down and then
feeling. You know, the, the mostimportant thing in any long term
relationship is safety. Ifsafety doesn't exist within the
couple of people don't feel likethey can be themselves, they can
say what's on their mind withoutbeing attacked or blamed or
shamed. It's really, really hardfor sex to continue in a couple
(41:51):
under those circumstances. Andthen once safety is assessed,
from there, we can start to lookat all these other pieces that
allow eroticism to flow, and howwe're either, you know, Emily
Nagurski talks about in herbook, the gas and the brakes.
Yes.
Paula (42:08):
So it's like, Come as you are, come as you are.
Keeley (42:11):
It's a great book is sort of, it's like, you know
what, you know, and sometimesit's gas and brakes. But
sometimes people just need tolearn how to take their foot off
the brake, to even you can't, ifyou have your foot on the brake
and the gas in the car, you'renot going nowhere. So sometimes
we've got to get people's feetoff the brakes. And sometimes
parts of that is internal selfwork. And other times it's the
(42:35):
relationship dynamic that'shappening, that's causing that
type of friction.
Paula (42:40):
So let's say couples are having these sexual challenges.
When is the time to look atmaybe seeing a sex therapist?
And can you talk a little bitabout what is sex therapy? How
does it differ from regularcouples therapy? And why would
somebody consider it?
Keeley (43:00):
Right? Right. So there's sex therapy, sex coaching, or
like sexual practitioners. And Ithink the main difference in
someone who has the word sex intheir practice is that they've
taken special trainings, youwould want to check that on
their website, just to makesure. And they are interested in
(43:21):
talking with you about thisparticular space. Most of my
referrals actually come fromfolks who are already in couples
therapy, traditional therapywith regular traditional
therapist who doesn't feelequipped to talk about sex, like
they may be able to talk aboutdiscrepancy or little things
(43:42):
here and there have the topic bethere. But because they're not
actually trained to explore thatarea, they run out of tools in
their toolkit pretty quickly.
Okay, that's not obviously, notevery traditional couples
therapist. There are definitelysome who have that, but not all
right. So
Paula (44:03):
if you're looking for someone look for that
specialized training, right,
Keeley (44:07):
that's really what that talks about is someone's
willingness to talk with youabout it there and then the
amount of skills that they'regoing to have in their bag that
sits beside them to be able topull it out and try on things
with you. Okay.
Paula (44:21):
Okay, well, you have given us some good stuff again
today, Keeley. Why don't we wrapup by giving the listeners kind
of some very specific kind ofactionable takeaways around how
they can take this next step inkind of broadening enhancing
their sex life together?
Keeley (44:40):
Great. I love that.
Where do we start? Well, Ithink, you know, one of the main
pieces that we want to be opento that we talked about today is
this fantasy space that actuallyincludes porn. I actually wrap
porn into the fantasyanticipation category. And so I
think One of the things we wantto think about in a long term
(45:01):
couple is how do we start tobring forward that vulnerability
of that place inside of us thatthinks things about us thinks
sexy thoughts. And so I thinkhaving that on our minds of
like, something we want to bringup with our partner, and start
this conversation around, whatare the things that are turned
(45:21):
that turn us on? And maybehaving a conversation around?
Like, are there things you know,you want to do before you die
that are in this category andthings maybe you know, you never
want to do but they turn you on,maybe something you watch in
porn that you think is sexy, butyou don't actually want to
engage with it in real life. Andhaving that conversation that
you so beautifully broke downfor me about coming and asking,
(45:43):
Hey, I want to talk aboutsomething about sexuality around
fantasies, let me know whenyou're ready, then bringing your
own fantasies forward and sayingI would love to know when you're
ready to share or have an opendiscussion with you about that?
Paula (45:59):
Yes. Well, I was only highlighting your words in that
one. So you get all the creditthere. But why I think that is a
great place for couples tostart. I think we can't, we
can't emphasize enough that thisis a this is a marathon, not a
sprint. I know that's a cliche,but it just applies here. You
(46:22):
have belong time to explore yoursexuality and and take your
time.
Keeley (46:29):
Absolutely.
Paula (46:31):
Yes, take your time and enjoy each other. Well, Katie,
thank you so much for joiningus. Again, like I say we we
couldn't have gotten all of thisin one episode. And and there's
more to talk about, but at leastI think we've given couples with
no the two episodes a reallygood place to start. And I say
start because in some respectsuse this time your relationship
(46:55):
to start over in exploring yoursexuality, leaving assumptions
behind, right. And having thoseconversations a new, almost like
you're getting a new partnerwhen you approach them with the
curiosity that you would withsomeone new in this new phase of
your relationship and love that.
So thank you so much.
Keeley (47:19):
You're very welcome.
Paula (47:23):
To learn more about Kelly's work, visit Keeling
rankin.com. You can also followher on Instagram at Kelly Rankin
sex coach. And on Facebook atKeeley Rankin Ma. I'll have all
these links in the show notes.
(47:50):
Thanks for joining us this week.
If you like what you hear,subscribe to practically marry
wherever you get your podcasts.
You can also follow the show onInstagram at get practically
married and send us a DM if youand your partner want to come on
the show and talk to one of ourexperts. Please take a moment to
leave us a review and hopefullya five star rating. But the best
(48:13):
way to support the show would beto tell someone about it. Tell
your friends, your family, yourwedding vendors, and even your
therapist. But most of all,share it with your partner.
That's all for now. Have a goodone.
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