July 12, 2023 • 46 mins
I'm joined by Clutter Coach and Professional Organizer Amelia Pleasant Kennedy of A Pleasant Solution to discuss why creating a fair division of labor is essential for maintaining a harmonious household. Amelia and I discuss:
- Why challenges arise when it comes to division of labor
- The trap of gender-based responsibilities in straight couples
- The "chore gap"
- The Fair Play method for dividing household tasks
- Outsourcing tasks
- Amelia's process for working with couples using the Fair Play method
You'll come away from the episode knowing why conversations around household labor will help you learn more about your partner, and how a fair division of labor can lead to greater self-fulfillment for each of you.
For more information on Amelia's work visit:
- apleasantsolution.com
- A Pleasant Solution: Embracing an Organized Life (available on all podcast platforms)
- Instagram: apleasantsolution
Additional resources:
- Fair Play (for info on the method, the book and the documentary)
- Get Ready to Say "I Do" (the FREE Practically Married mini-course )
If you like what you heard...
- Follow Practically Married with Paula Holt on your favorite podcast platform to get every episode!
- Visit PracticallyMarried.net/Newsletter to sign up and receive even more relationship info and resources!
- Follow @getpracticallymarried on Instagram to tell us about your experiences using the strategies you hear on the show!
Edited by Veronica Gruba
Music by Sage Holt-Hall
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Paula (00:00):
Today, you're going to find out how it's possible for
(00:03):
the word help to make mefrustrated. Alright, let's get
into itWelcome to practically married,
(00:23):
the podcast created to helpdating engaged and newly married
couples prepare for healthy longterm committed relationships.
I'm Paula Holt. And on thisshow, I'm gonna bring you
conversations with experts, whowill give you tools to take your
relationship to the next level.
(00:44):
Although many of our guests willbe therapists, please keep in
mind that practically married isfor educational purposes only,
and is not a substitute fortherapy with a licensed
professional. Hi, thanks forjoining me for the first
interview. After the longweekend here in the US, I took
(01:05):
some time off to celebrate mydaughter's birthday with our
family. But I'm back with atopic I feel strongly about,
because it has such asignificant impact on the
quality of so manyrelationships. It's also related
to one of my big pet peeves,which is how partners often use
the word help. But instead ofexplaining to you why the word
(01:28):
bothers me, I'm going to share aclip of me explaining it to my
upcoming guest after we hitended the interview, but before
I stopped recording, I have athing about the word help. I
find that men and women, I'msure you've experienced this,
oh, I help out a lot around thehouse, or Oh, my husband helps
(01:49):
out a lot. And I'm like, in theway that you can't babysit your
own kids, right? You cannot helpin my opinion, you cannot help
in your own house you arecontributing. And your
contribution may not be 5050based on other roles you have.
But everyone contributes.
Because if you say help, if yousay he helps in the house, then
(02:13):
what's the message there? Who ishe helping? What that's really
saying to me is it's your job,and he helps you. Or if you're
you know if you're if you'repraising him for helping now,
when you come to the CPE, andit's like, okay, this is my
chore, or this is my task thatI've taken on, but like, Oh,
(02:35):
I've had a bad day, can you takeon my task? I think that's more
like help. But you don't help inyour own house. I love to hear
about how you feel about what Isaid there. So let me know on
Instagram at get practicallymarried. My guest today is going
to explain why the division oflabor issue often becomes
(02:58):
challenging for couples. Andshe'll give a dare I say
practical method for how todivide and complete all the
important householdresponsibilities. Amelia
pleasant Kennedy is a cluttercoach, a professional organizer,
and the founder of the company apleasant solution. She's also a
(03:19):
certified facilitator of fairplay, which as you will learn is
a system for dividing householdtasks that will help partners
rebalance their to do lists,reclaim their time and
rediscover what makes theminteresting. Let's welcome
Amelia pleasant Kennedy to theshow. I'm Millea Welcome to
(03:40):
practically Mary.
Amelia (03:48):
It's an absolute pleasure to be here. Thank you
for having me.
Paula (03:51):
Yes, I appreciate you being here. I sought you out.
Because I know that you are afair play facilitator. And we'll
get into what that means in aminute. But we're talking about
the division of labor andcouples. And I want to kind of
spell out for people why this isan issue. Because I think in
some you know some of ourlisteners, a may not have
(04:14):
appeared as an issue just yet.
But if they are like many, manyother couples, it will become an
issue later if it hasn'talready. So I just want to talk
a little bit about about issuesaround the division of labor and
how it impacts couples.
Amelia (04:34):
Yes. So what we have here is a moment where two
individuals have their ownhouseholds. Perhaps they're
living independently, andthey're joining together and
within their own separate livesbefore marriage. They have a
(04:55):
certain way of doing thingstours around the home response
abilities tasks, a sense of whatfinished, complete, done clean,
tidy, any of those words, theyhave their own internalized
sense of what that means. Andwhen you join two households
(05:16):
together, we often forget tohave a conversation to create
some common grounds and commonlanguage over what a household a
joint household looks like, howit runs efficiently, how
everyone's time is valued alongthe way, we forget to have that
(05:40):
conversation upfront, rightbefore the households are
joined. Right.
Paula (05:45):
And then often we fall into habits. Because there isn't
a conversation, we fall intohabits that are sometimes
problematic down the line. Andthis is particularly the case I
want to say with straightcouples, because there are, we
fall into habits oftentimesaround gender, even if we're not
(06:07):
planning to, even if we considerourselves very progressive. It
often happens that we fall intothese gendered kind of
responsibilities. So can youspeak on that a little bit?
Yeah,
Amelia (06:23):
there's always a level of socialization and upbringing,
culture and community that areat play. And what I mean by that
is, from the moment that you areborn, you are given lots of
signals from your parents, yourrelatives, your community media
(06:46):
about what it is to be a girl tobe a boy to be somewhere in
between. And those specificallyare about what it means to take
care of a household and who doeswhat. So most of the
stereotypical messages is thatthe home, the domestic space is
(07:09):
a woman's responsibility. Andthat a man's responsibility may
be outside of the home, being abreadwinner. But those are
obviously have been up ended.
And never really should havebeen in place anyway. And so
there's some unlearning thatneeds to happen. So that we are
aware of the messages that we'vereceived growing up, as well as
(07:33):
what we want the future of ourhousehold to look like, as we
join together. So gettingcurious about the messages, the
socialization and kind ofpicking it apart, to create a
thoughtful way forward for a newcouple.
Paula (07:57):
And that's why is, you know, not as much of an issue
oftentimes for same sex couples,because they're of the same
gender, they don't have thosetwo different genders have ways
of looking at theresponsibilities. And so there
does tend to be more of aconversation on who's going to
do what, as opposed to adefault. Right. And then the
(08:19):
other thing, just on on what yousaid, is these expectations,
because they are kind of in thewater we're swimming in, they
may be expectations that we haveof ourselves, not just what our
partner expects us to do, whichthey also have been swimming in
the water, right? So they mayfall into having an expectation
(08:41):
of themselves or of us. So it'sa little bit insidious almost,
because the call is coming frominside the house, sometimes you
know, so, we have theexpectations, our partner may,
and then as you said, around us,so family members in law's
friends even can have theseexpectations, and culture
Amelia (09:03):
as well. Many households are traditionally patriarchal or
male dominated, and there aredirect messages that you know,
it is a woman's responsibilityto cook or clean or serve or
just be always working andavailable in in service of the
children or household. Right,right. And so it's it's
(09:25):
important to have theseconversations early when you're
fresh in a relationship becauseyou also learn about the other
person in such an intimate andpersonal way that they might not
have really ever thought aboutthe way that they were raised
and what they were taught aboutwho does what, in a household.
(09:46):
And so coming together to justsimply have a conversation about
what did you see in yourhousehold growing up is a great
place to get to know oneanother, even on a deeper level.
Right,
Paula (10:00):
okay. And because of the thing, when you talk about,
there's the expectations thatwomen should do this, or men
should do that. There's also thebelief that some people have
that one gender is better at itsomehow inherently better at
certain things, which is alsonot the case. But something that
(10:21):
we've grown to believe in. Incertain cases. I know when it
comes to cooking, for example,it's like, Oh, I'm just better
at it. Well, as my late fatheronce said, If you can read, you
can cook. So anyone can do anyof the tasks. It's just a
matter, like you said, of havingthat conversation and deciding
(10:43):
what you want to do. And we'llget to some more specifics of
how to go about kind of breakingsome things down. But I wanted
to quote, a couple of statisticsthat I saw, we talked about you
being a fair play facilitatorand pull this from fair play,
but that 45% of American womenin straight marriages make the
(11:04):
same amount of money or morethan their husbands. But they
spend three and a half to fourand a half hours more on
household tasks each week. Andanother one was that it's
estimated that women spent 100hours more per year than men on
household chores. And so whenyou start to look at statistics
(11:27):
like those, you can have see asthat that how that would build
up over time. That sense of I'mdoing more, if you're the woman,
I'm feeling burned out, I'mfeeling resentful. And so these
conversations, that we'reencouraging people to have our
(11:49):
relationship protectingconversations, right, it's not
just about getting the choresdone. It's about how do you
protect the relationship so thateverybody feels valued, and
everyone feels that things arefair, and that, that their
(12:10):
contribution is meaningful? Sowe're gonna move on, we're going
to add add to that, I was justgonna say
Amelia (12:18):
that the common term for what you outlined in the
statistics is the chore gap,difference for the number of
hours spent within the home, onon tasks that move the household
forward. And exactly what you'resaying is it allows for us to
(12:40):
value everyone's time equally.
And that's what builds up overover years of living together.
Without this conversation, onepartner tends to feel like their
time is not valued as much asthe other partners.
Paula (12:59):
Right, right. Well, as we said, this tends to show up over
time, but what it can look liketalk about what it can look like
early in a relationship, becausemaybe you're starting to fall
into those patterns already. Youjust maybe haven't recognized
that as a burden. So how doeshow does that show up early?
(13:23):
Well,
Amelia (13:24):
I had a client once who said to me, I know that the
moment I pick up that task orresponsibility, it will be mine
forever. So whether it is youknow, you've always been
responsible for your ownlaundry, and suddenly you find
yourself doing your partner'slaundry. And then it falls into
(13:46):
the habit that you're always thedefault laundry person, right,
the moment you pick up beingresponsible for the mail or
paying bills for the collectivefor the whole, it tends to fall
into a habit, we don't go backand discuss the routine or the
(14:07):
process for that particulartask, right. And so I think it's
really noticing the things thatyou're picking up the things
that you already are responsiblefor. And knowing that there's
always a chance to kind of pauseand open the conversation again,
like hey, can you be responsiblefor wiping down the kitchen
(14:31):
after dinner? Right, and willrotate so that one person isn't
always doing the same? EvenBrodsky calls them the daily
grind chores that seem to getunder our skin after a while.
Yeah, I've
Paula (14:46):
had conversations. I remember one conversation in
particular with a young womanwho was fairly new in a
relationship and with livingwith her partner. And she said I
do all the cooking Add on my, Ilike to cook. And I'm like,
okay, just curious, how often doyou cook? And she said a couple
(15:11):
times a week, because somenights were spent with other
people, some nights, theyordered some nights they went
out. And what I said, because Iknew this woman wanted children,
I said, Well, you have to, ifyou become that person, like you
said, I picked up that task, andit's now mine. Well, when you
(15:33):
have to, you know, you wantchildren when you have to put a
meal on the table every day, andnot just one, but multiple
meals, you know, for kids inparticular, will now that
default chore that you picked upis a different kind of chore.
But now you're already theperson. The same thing I think
(15:55):
goes for. I know a lot of womenwho take on the responsibility
of gifts, birthday holidayMother's Day gifts, and it's
like, Oh, I get I get gifts forhis mother to or I get gifts for
his nephew to or something likethat. And what, you know, again,
(16:15):
they pick up the task, it seemsfairly easy now. But it's a lot
different, particularly if youhave your own kids. And you're
doing let's say is you doChristmas, and you're doing
Christmas presents for your ownkids and everything else that
that that holiday. And thatholiday season, regardless of
which holiday you celebrateeverything that that holiday
(16:37):
takes on. So So I've tried togive my little warnings to
people that you know, you, youmight want to be mindful about
taking something on exclusively,that the demands of which may
change down the line. So
Amelia (16:53):
yeah, you point out something really great. I mean,
I think that there's there'salways an evolution, within the
tasks and responsibilities.
There's life transitions thathappen within family is. And I
think just because you pick itup doesn't mean you carry it for
ever. So it is checking back into have that conversation. Well,
Paula (17:17):
hopefully, we've made it clear that this is an issue,
that even if you're notexperiencing it as a burden,
right now, you got to try tolook forward and see what it
might look like if you decide tohave your own children, if your
work situation becomes moredemanding. And kind of if you
(17:40):
bought into the idea that theseare conversations to have now
and maybe a redistribution oftasks. Now, let's switch to
talking about how to go aboutdoing that. And this is a good
place for you to explain to usabout being a fair play
facilitator and what fair play
Amelia (18:01):
is. Sure, yeah, fair play is a time and anxiety
saving system that was developedby Yves Brodsky, she has two
best selling books about the thetopic and as a fairplay
facilitator, what I help clientsdo is really play the game. So
(18:24):
she has taken 100 of the mostcommon tasks, chores, family
responsibilities can work, asyou mentioned, taking care of
extended family. And she'screated a card system where you
can actually physically swapchores and responsibility of
cards
Paula (18:44):
is like playing cards.
Yeah. Okay. So,
Amelia (18:49):
so she's gamified it.
And the beauty is it starts withfirst customizing your deck,
every chore and responsibilityis not going to apply to every
household. So first off, you'regoing to eliminate things that
aren't relevant. And then you'regoing to have a conversation
about the humanity behind thetasks, for example, right? You
(19:13):
mentioned giving gifts toextended family. Through that
conversation, you might discoverthat one partner grew up in a
household where gift giving wasthe love language, and it was it
was just over the top everyfamily celebration was all about
(19:33):
gifts. And the other partnerjust might have grown up in a
completely different environmentwhere you know, a simple gift or
an acknowledgement spending timetogether was valued differently.
Paula (19:50):
Shaking my head a lot because I'm the my family is the
gift giving family and my myhusband's you know, not that
they don't but in my family it'sa Big deal. And you can easily
assume that other people do itthe same way you do, which is
not the case clearly. Exactly.
Amelia (20:09):
So the conversation creates. When I say the
humanity, it's understanding whyone task is important or
valuable to one partner. Andthen you get to decide, right is
this for our household is thissomething we're going to do on a
regular basis, we both agreethat it's valuable, it's
(20:30):
important it it's in line withour family, Mission priorities,
etc. And there's also anopportunity if a task is only
valued by one partner, and theother partners like, I could
care less. And there's space forconversation to say, Okay, this
(20:50):
is really important to me. So Iwill take full ownership of this
task from start to finish.
example of that might be, again,like sending holiday cards or
family photos. One partner mightnot be at all interested. But
the other say like this isimportant. I am responsible for
(21:12):
scheduling the photographerpicking out the outfits getting
the cards printed anddistributed, because it means so
much to me.
Paula (21:23):
And so how, if a couple wanted to go about kind of this
gamification, what is like, howdo you take on a task? What does
it mean to take on a task?
That's
Amelia (21:38):
a great question. And it after you define why it's
important, you're going to lookat what she calls the conception
planning and execution of thetask. So there are three steps
involved. Conception is kind ofthe hidden one, right? It is the
(22:00):
invisible load that most in instereotypical households is the
female's responsibility she'scarrying around this running to
do list in her mind, she'snoticing all the time, what's
absent, what needs to be done.
So the conception plan, phase isactually the most important, I
(22:20):
would say, of the three stepprocess, because it's noticing
that the task needs to occur.
The planning is the space forconversation where you decide
get input and say, Okay, this iswhen it's going to happen. And
(22:42):
then of course, execution we'reall familiar with, that's the
follow through.
Paula (22:48):
Just a quick pause to let you know about the free mini
course available at practicallymarried that net, sign up for
get ready to say I do to explorefive of the practically marry
subjects. In the course, you'llreceive an email about each
subject that includes helpfulsuggestions, and a brief three
(23:08):
question homework assignment toget you and your partner talking
about how you can work togetherto manage your money, your
household, your in laws, andmore. Go to practically
married.net/free-course to signup now. Okay, let's get back to
our conversation. Can you givean example for couples who are
(23:33):
in this phase of life of whatthat looks like with the
conception planning andexecution of a task?
Amelia (23:40):
Yeah, I love it. So earlier, you mentioned cooking.
So before a meal is made,someone has to go to the grocery
store and get the the items. Soif you were to break down the
conception, planning andexecution of grocery shopping,
what that would look like wouldbe going to the pantry or the
(24:02):
refrigerator and noticing whatis needed. But even more
specifically, that particularbrand that you like the amount?
Asked asking. So within in theplanning phase that would be
asking your partner, what areyou planning to make this week
what items need to go on thegrocery list so I can make sure
(24:24):
that I get them. And then it'sfollowing through grocery
shopping, putting the items awayand being responsible for any
items that might have missed thelist or not made it into the
meal. So it starts with thenoticing and really being
familiar with those tiny littledetails about what your family
(24:47):
likes to eat or likes to keep inthe pantry.
Paula (24:50):
Okay, and so what if one person says I've come up with
the idea for what we need Eat?
Why don't you go execute and dothe grocery shopping? What you
know? Like, what are thethoughts on kind of dividing up
that conception planning andexecution?
Amelia (25:13):
That's what we want to avoid. Okay? Because what that
actually does is it places themental load, the notice thing,
the keeping track of what needsto be done with one party. And
it adds the planning and theexecution to another. So it's
taking a task, and it's creatingmore work than necessary,
(25:36):
because typically, the personwho has the mental load will
always follow through and say,Hey, did you did you get that
task done? Did you get all theitems at the grocery store,
they're still carrying part ofthe weight. And that's what we
want to avoid by dividing tasksfully between partners, one
person is responsible from for atask from beginning to end. Now
(25:59):
you can take something likecooking, and have one person be
always be responsible fordinner, and another person
responsible for breakfast, thereare ways to customize the game
and the time tasks to meet yourindividual family needs. But the
goal is not to divide one tasktoo many times.
Paula (26:23):
Okay, all right. So so in this method, each partner is
taking on the full conception,planning and execution of each
task.
Amelia (26:34):
Correct. And the benefit is, is you really get your your
mental space back, you get alittle bit of lightness, and you
can focus on other otherimportant
Paula (26:49):
things. Yes, I can see that I. And again, what we're
trying to help couples do is beproactive with this. Because,
you know, you and I are both alittle further down the line in
terms of, you know, ourmarriages and families and
having kids. And I know verywell what that conception, and
(27:11):
if you take on conception andplanning, and someone else's
just executing, you know,conception and planning takes a
lot of mental energy, the mentalload is a lot of mental energy.
And then because you're soinvested in the conception and
planning, even the executionyou're managing, right? Because
(27:32):
you've already you've seen itthis far. And so you're like,
did you do that thing? You gotthat thing done? Right? Did you
do that? So you don't like yousay you don't release it until
you know that it's done.
Amelia (27:46):
And that's really important, because the wrist the
person executing the task feelsit too. Right? You feel that
outside view or that outsidevoice
Paula (27:58):
kind of micromanaging?
Yeah, kind of thing here, go
Amelia (28:01):
do this thing. And you're like, I don't have time
or space for this. It wasn't onmy plans today. So that's where
that resentment and irritationcan really start to bubble and,
and percolate.
Paula (28:15):
Okay. And so when you work with couples, What's the
process like in terms of kind ofimplementing the fairplay method
with them?
Amelia (28:28):
Yeah, so I like to really go back to the basics,
and figure out throughconversation, what the common
core mission is for thepartnership.
Paula (28:45):
So this is you sitting down with the couple and just
having that initialconversation, to ask them their
goals and mission and values
Amelia (28:54):
like, like, what is why are we together as a household?
What do we want our ourhousehold to look like? What are
our main priorities when itcomes to caring for our space,
caring for each other, andcaring for our future? So we
start there, because it createsa safe space for everyone to be
(29:16):
on the same speed page. Then Ipersonally work with the
partners individually, to kindof get a sense of what they feel
like they're currentlyresponsible for. As a coach, I
leave space to explore anyemotion that might come up
(29:37):
around responsibilities and justcheck in with each individual.
And then we have time togetheras a facilitation. So I've heard
both sides and I can see maybewhere the rough edges are for
the collective conversation. Sobringing everyone back together
(29:59):
and say Like, Oh, I noticed thatthis was important to you, but
not so much to you. Okay, wheredo we want to land on
responsibility for thisparticular task? And then just
help them formulate a plan? Howoften do we want to check in and
swap tasks, because part of thisis also, we don't want to be
(30:21):
talking about chores and tasksand responsibilities all week
long, right? It's reallycreates, defining a time, maybe
a half hour on a, on a morningwhen emotions are low that we
can check in and say, Hey,here's what's coming up for the
week. What do you want to beresponsible for? Here's what I'd
(30:41):
like to be responsible for justcreating an a structure to have
that conversation over and overweek by week, because it is an
evolving game, it is an evolvinghousehold.
Paula (30:56):
Right? Okay. And so is that what you recommend with
couples that they check in on aweekly basis to squat?
Amelia (31:05):
Yeah, a week on a weekly basis is probably the standard.
I notice with folks who haveADHD, more frequent check ins
might be better, because thattask will either slip, slip
their mind or needs a level ofpressure or importance to make
sure that it's executed. Andthat creates for a better
(31:28):
conversation to say, we're goingto check in three times
throughout the week for 10minutes, to keep on top of
things rather than wait untilthe week is passed. But of
course, you could do it everyother week, you would customize
for what makes sense for yourbrain in your home. Okay,
Paula (31:46):
and I have to ask now, what happens when the partners
don't really see it the sameway, because I know there's I
can't quote the exact statistic,but everybody is over estimating
their contribution to the pointwhere it's like one partner
thinks they do, you know, 80%,the other partner thinks they do
(32:07):
70%. And somehow, you know,we're over 100%, you know, in
terms of the estimation of work.
So I gotta imagine that it'spretty common for the partners
that you work with, to not agreeon how they're currently
dividing the labor in thehousehold,
Amelia (32:24):
for sure. And there are solutions so that you can track
your time, what you're doingwhen you can just really create
a space safe space to be honestwith yourself, because
oftentimes, what we find is thatpeople are doing, I call it
overworking, they're doing waymore on a daily basis. And they
(32:48):
might actually not necessarilyneed to be doing but want to be
doing. If it's not important tothe family. That's the first
part is determining, like, do weneed to have a Spotless kitchen
before we go to bed every night?
Right.
Paula (33:02):
So that's that standard of care issue? Can you speak to
that a little bit? I know that'sa that's one of the components
of the fairplay method, right?
Amelia (33:10):
For sure. That's the minimum standard of care. So
defining for creating a commonlanguage between partners about
what clean or done or tidy mightmean. Because when we go through
conception, planning andexecution, right execution,
might mean or completion mightmean different things to
(33:34):
different folks. So I've hadfolks who have said, Okay, a
clean kitchen to me is when allthe counters are wiped down, the
sink is empty, the sink has beenwiped out the, you know, the
drain has been run, the disheshave been dried and put away,
like versus someone else havemight have a more minimal
(33:58):
guideline for what a cleankitchen might look like. And we
forget that we don't alwaysdefine that for one another.
Paula (34:07):
Right? And so that's, that's a really important thing,
I would think to negotiate.
Because if you're taking thaton, and your partner is like,
Hey, you're not finished,there's still the clean dishes
are still sitting on the side ofthe sink or something like that.
But then in that case, like ifI'm the partner who thinks, as
long as the dishes are clean,and they're on the drying rack,
(34:30):
I'm done. They'll get put awaytomorrow. If the other partner
is like, my, I want you toactually dry them and put them
away, then how do you kind ofnegotiate that like? Well, I'll
ask you the question, how do younegotiate that because I'm
thinking, if you're this partnerwith the higher standard, do you
then have to step in?
Amelia (34:54):
So perfectionism exists, right? Some of us have those
higher standards andexpectations and the key is in
the conversation, right. So theminimum standard of care is the
minimum standard, perhaps thatthe person who wants it tidier
(35:14):
can tolerate. And remember, thechores and tasks are swapped on
a weekly basis on a monthlybasis, you're trading tasks. And
the purpose of that is so thateveryone in the home understands
how to do a task in theirspecial way. In case someone is
(35:35):
sick in case you know, life getsbusy in case somebody loses a
job, we want everyone to knowhow to do all of the things
because it creates fairness andequity in the home. And so
really deciding what thatminimum standard of care is
essential because then everyoneunderstands exactly what's the
(36:01):
what's the least we can get byto to stave off that irritation
or resentment.
Paula (36:07):
Okay. Well, I am also in addition to the I think the
fairplay method has a lot ofvalue. I'm also a fan of
outsourcing where you can andobviously, that takes some
financial resources. But I dothink of that as an investment
in the relationship. Because ifyou can, if you can outsource
(36:29):
some of that household labor,you think less than some of that
resentment that can build up.
But you also free up more timethat you can spend together as a
couple of doing something thatyou enjoy. Where, you know, how
do you work with couples, orhow, how has it come up for you
with couples and outsourcing?
Amelia (36:49):
I think the key with outsourcing is to understand, so
the difference between equitablelever and delegating is that
delegating still requires a bitof the mental load. So when
you're outsourcing, you stillhave to be mindful that someone
has to supervise theoutsourcing. So you still have
(37:13):
an an element or a layer to chatabout, someone still has to own
the task of making sure thegroceries are delivered, or
making sure that thehousekeepers are booked. So the
the load is definitely lighter.
And I would encourage folks whocan outsource or if there's
tasks that are just generally noone wants to do, that you're
(37:39):
gonna save time and energy byoutsourcing. But beware that you
should take responsibility forthe mental aspect of planning
that delegation.
Paula (37:52):
Now, that's a really great point because we use a
meal prep service. And it'sgreat in terms of taking care of
some of the can some of theconception of what meal we're
going to have and some of theplanning because the groceries
are delivered. But every weekthat has to be managed as to
selecting meals, that'ssomething my husband does, but
(38:14):
it has to be managed. And if itdoesn't arrive, they have to be
notified. And there's definitelyan ongoing mental aspect to that
it does lighten the load. Butthere is still load, right. And
then when it comes tohousekeepers, that's something I
do. So making sure they arepaid, oh, it's the holidays,
(38:35):
where there's going to be abonus, or we can't have them
come this particular week orsomething like that. So it's
managing that process. Butagain, I say, I think it's a
great investment in yourrelationship if you can lighten
the load on one or both of you.
Amelia (38:56):
And the thing that I want to share is that the goal
of the Fair Play Method or justanything that you Institute
within your household should beto free up time for both
partners to have time with adultfriends. Time to pursue a
personal passion. Time for selfcare, right? As the relationship
(39:21):
grows, there's still theindividual that needs space to
be the individual within therelationship. And when you
create a system or aconversation around household
chores and and equitable labor,then what you do is you allow
each person 30 minutes an hour,three hours a week, to kind of
(39:46):
go off and be their individualadult human self outside of the
partnership and outside of justthe daily grind of running a
household. Right. Well, I'm
Paula (39:58):
glad you pointed that out. because what I suggested
was that free time was time foryou as a couple. But that
doesn't encompass everything,that's extra time potentially as
a couple, but potentially foryou as individuals, to, to
fulfill yourselves in variousways through your interests and
(40:18):
bring those best selves, itstill benefits the relationship,
even if you're doing somethingseparately, because you're
bringing a more fulfilled selfback into the relationship and
back into the home.
Amelia (40:30):
Yes, and that's it. That is what the resentment and
irritation turns into, it turnsinto one person feeling like
they're doing all of the choresand tasks and having no free
time, and then are just not asexciting of a person to be
around in the relationship.
Paula (40:51):
Right? Well, let's go back to you working with
couples, when? So you're havingthese conversations with them?
And then how does it how do youkind of get them to implement
their plan? And then follow upwith them to? Or do they follow
up with you and say, Hey, thisis working great, or we're
(41:12):
having some struggles?
Amelia (41:14):
Yep. So I typically work weekly one to one with, well,
we'll do some collectivesessions, we'll do some one to
one sessions, and then we'llcome back together. And, and in
between, you know, folks areworking on one or two tasks on
their own. Most people thinkthey look at the 100 cards, and
(41:35):
they're like, this isoverwhelming, I can't, in any
way possibly get through it. SoI like to give lots of space and
time to the process. So it'sokay to sort of work on chore of
one or two chores per week, andlearn to fully go through the
(41:56):
process. And then check back inwith each other check back in
with me, how's it going? Becausewhen you take on the whole, the
whole load, they're gonnaquickly see the house of cards,
I think, fall apart. Right?
Paula (42:10):
And do you work with couples? Virtually? Yes,
Amelia (42:13):
yes, absolutely.
Paula (42:15):
That's good to know.
Because I could imagine ascenario where you're in the
house, have you do home visitsas well. But I can imagine
because you also do organizing,which is a little bit different
topic. But frankly, what I'malways very interested in,
because my dream is to have aperfectly organized house, and
(42:35):
that everyone would puteverything back just where I
want it to be. It's still adream, clearly,
Amelia (42:44):
I think it is for everyone. And I will offer that
organizing systems and routinesare amazing and beneficial. And
there will always still belaundry, you will always still
be meals to be cooked and thingsto be put away. So it's a nice
goal, but not to think about itas a destination of perfection.
Paula (43:09):
Yes, well, I know but a girl can dream. Okay, what if,
if couples want to learn moreabout the Fair Play system hang
with the cards? You mentionedthe cards? Are those physical
cards, like do you? How doesthat work with the cards, I just
(43:30):
want to make sure people can canlearn more about the process if
they want to follow through onit. For
Amelia (43:36):
sure. Yep. Everyone can get a copy of the cards free and
downloadable on my website,which is a pleasant
solution.com. And there'sdefinitely that in the show
notes so people can guide it.
There's information of how towork with me. And then I have a
link also to her books, thecards and there's actually also
(43:56):
a documentary that's available.
That's great to watch, becauseit's you see real couples going
through this process and havingthis conversation.
Paula (44:07):
Good, good. Good. Okay, well, I'm glad we can have this
conversation because I reallyfeel strongly that this is
something that couples need totackle proactively. It's like,
I've known to many couples, justpersonally, but I know the
statistics and the researcharound what happens when people
get entrenched in taking oncertain responsibilities. And
(44:32):
then to try to revisit it isit's more challenging. So if
couples can do this now, kind ofearlier in their relationships,
and certainly before havingchildren. I just think they'll
there'll be so much better off.
Amelia (44:49):
Yes, you're in a place that the system can grow and
evolve with you and your family.
Yes.
Paula (44:57):
All right. Great. Well, thank you so much. million for
joining us and I like I said, Iwill have all the resources that
you mentioned in the show notes.
Amelia (45:07):
Thank you so much for having me.
Paula (45:14):
For more information on a million words, you can visit her
website, a pleasantsolution.com. You can also
listen to her podcast, apleasant solution, embracing and
organized life and follow her onInstagram at a pleasant
solution. Check out the shownotes for all these links and to
(45:34):
get the fairplay cards wediscussed in this episode
thanks for joining us this week.
If you like what you hear,subscribe to practically marry
wherever you get your podcast.
(45:57):
You can also follow the show onInstagram at get practically
married and send us a DM if youand your partner want to come on
the show and talk to one of ourexperts. Please take a moment to
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(46:20):
therapist. But most of all,share it with your partner.
That's all for now. Have a goodone.
Today, you're going to find out how it's possible for
(00:03):
the word help to make mefrustrated. Alright, let's get
into itWelcome to practically married,
(00:23):
the podcast created to helpdating engaged and newly married
couples prepare for healthy longterm committed relationships.
I'm Paula Holt. And on thisshow, I'm gonna bring you
conversations with experts, whowill give you tools to take your
relationship to the next level.
(00:44):
Although many of our guests willbe therapists, please keep in
mind that practically married isfor educational purposes only,
and is not a substitute fortherapy with a licensed
professional. Hi, thanks forjoining me for the first
interview. After the longweekend here in the US, I took
(01:05):
some time off to celebrate mydaughter's birthday with our
family. But I'm back with atopic I feel strongly about,
because it has such asignificant impact on the
quality of so manyrelationships. It's also related
to one of my big pet peeves,which is how partners often use
the word help. But instead ofexplaining to you why the word
(01:28):
bothers me, I'm going to share aclip of me explaining it to my
upcoming guest after we hitended the interview, but before
I stopped recording, I have athing about the word help. I
find that men and women, I'msure you've experienced this,
oh, I help out a lot around thehouse, or Oh, my husband helps
(01:49):
out a lot. And I'm like, in theway that you can't babysit your
own kids, right? You cannot helpin my opinion, you cannot help
in your own house you arecontributing. And your
contribution may not be 5050based on other roles you have.
But everyone contributes.
Because if you say help, if yousay he helps in the house, then
(02:13):
what's the message there? Who ishe helping? What that's really
saying to me is it's your job,and he helps you. Or if you're
you know if you're if you'repraising him for helping now,
when you come to the CPE, andit's like, okay, this is my
chore, or this is my task thatI've taken on, but like, Oh,
(02:35):
I've had a bad day, can you takeon my task? I think that's more
like help. But you don't help inyour own house. I love to hear
about how you feel about what Isaid there. So let me know on
Instagram at get practicallymarried. My guest today is going
to explain why the division oflabor issue often becomes
(02:58):
challenging for couples. Andshe'll give a dare I say
practical method for how todivide and complete all the
important householdresponsibilities. Amelia
pleasant Kennedy is a cluttercoach, a professional organizer,
and the founder of the company apleasant solution. She's also a
(03:19):
certified facilitator of fairplay, which as you will learn is
a system for dividing householdtasks that will help partners
rebalance their to do lists,reclaim their time and
rediscover what makes theminteresting. Let's welcome
Amelia pleasant Kennedy to theshow. I'm Millea Welcome to
(03:40):
practically Mary.
Amelia (03:48):
It's an absolute pleasure to be here. Thank you
for having me.
Paula (03:51):
Yes, I appreciate you being here. I sought you out.
Because I know that you are afair play facilitator. And we'll
get into what that means in aminute. But we're talking about
the division of labor andcouples. And I want to kind of
spell out for people why this isan issue. Because I think in
some you know some of ourlisteners, a may not have
(04:14):
appeared as an issue just yet.
But if they are like many, manyother couples, it will become an
issue later if it hasn'talready. So I just want to talk
a little bit about about issuesaround the division of labor and
how it impacts couples.
Amelia (04:34):
Yes. So what we have here is a moment where two
individuals have their ownhouseholds. Perhaps they're
living independently, andthey're joining together and
within their own separate livesbefore marriage. They have a
(04:55):
certain way of doing thingstours around the home response
abilities tasks, a sense of whatfinished, complete, done clean,
tidy, any of those words, theyhave their own internalized
sense of what that means. Andwhen you join two households
(05:16):
together, we often forget tohave a conversation to create
some common grounds and commonlanguage over what a household a
joint household looks like, howit runs efficiently, how
everyone's time is valued alongthe way, we forget to have that
(05:40):
conversation upfront, rightbefore the households are
joined. Right.
Paula (05:45):
And then often we fall into habits. Because there isn't
a conversation, we fall intohabits that are sometimes
problematic down the line. Andthis is particularly the case I
want to say with straightcouples, because there are, we
fall into habits oftentimesaround gender, even if we're not
(06:07):
planning to, even if we considerourselves very progressive. It
often happens that we fall intothese gendered kind of
responsibilities. So can youspeak on that a little bit?
Yeah,
Amelia (06:23):
there's always a level of socialization and upbringing,
culture and community that areat play. And what I mean by that
is, from the moment that you areborn, you are given lots of
signals from your parents, yourrelatives, your community media
(06:46):
about what it is to be a girl tobe a boy to be somewhere in
between. And those specificallyare about what it means to take
care of a household and who doeswhat. So most of the
stereotypical messages is thatthe home, the domestic space is
(07:09):
a woman's responsibility. Andthat a man's responsibility may
be outside of the home, being abreadwinner. But those are
obviously have been up ended.
And never really should havebeen in place anyway. And so
there's some unlearning thatneeds to happen. So that we are
aware of the messages that we'vereceived growing up, as well as
(07:33):
what we want the future of ourhousehold to look like, as we
join together. So gettingcurious about the messages, the
socialization and kind ofpicking it apart, to create a
thoughtful way forward for a newcouple.
Paula (07:57):
And that's why is, you know, not as much of an issue
oftentimes for same sex couples,because they're of the same
gender, they don't have thosetwo different genders have ways
of looking at theresponsibilities. And so there
does tend to be more of aconversation on who's going to
do what, as opposed to adefault. Right. And then the
(08:19):
other thing, just on on what yousaid, is these expectations,
because they are kind of in thewater we're swimming in, they
may be expectations that we haveof ourselves, not just what our
partner expects us to do, whichthey also have been swimming in
the water, right? So they mayfall into having an expectation
(08:41):
of themselves or of us. So it'sa little bit insidious almost,
because the call is coming frominside the house, sometimes you
know, so, we have theexpectations, our partner may,
and then as you said, around us,so family members in law's
friends even can have theseexpectations, and culture
Amelia (09:03):
as well. Many households are traditionally patriarchal or
male dominated, and there aredirect messages that you know,
it is a woman's responsibilityto cook or clean or serve or
just be always working andavailable in in service of the
children or household. Right,right. And so it's it's
(09:25):
important to have theseconversations early when you're
fresh in a relationship becauseyou also learn about the other
person in such an intimate andpersonal way that they might not
have really ever thought aboutthe way that they were raised
and what they were taught aboutwho does what, in a household.
(09:46):
And so coming together to justsimply have a conversation about
what did you see in yourhousehold growing up is a great
place to get to know oneanother, even on a deeper level.
Right,
Paula (10:00):
okay. And because of the thing, when you talk about,
there's the expectations thatwomen should do this, or men
should do that. There's also thebelief that some people have
that one gender is better at itsomehow inherently better at
certain things, which is alsonot the case. But something that
(10:21):
we've grown to believe in. Incertain cases. I know when it
comes to cooking, for example,it's like, Oh, I'm just better
at it. Well, as my late fatheronce said, If you can read, you
can cook. So anyone can do anyof the tasks. It's just a
matter, like you said, of havingthat conversation and deciding
(10:43):
what you want to do. And we'llget to some more specifics of
how to go about kind of breakingsome things down. But I wanted
to quote, a couple of statisticsthat I saw, we talked about you
being a fair play facilitatorand pull this from fair play,
but that 45% of American womenin straight marriages make the
(11:04):
same amount of money or morethan their husbands. But they
spend three and a half to fourand a half hours more on
household tasks each week. Andanother one was that it's
estimated that women spent 100hours more per year than men on
household chores. And so whenyou start to look at statistics
(11:27):
like those, you can have see asthat that how that would build
up over time. That sense of I'mdoing more, if you're the woman,
I'm feeling burned out, I'mfeeling resentful. And so these
conversations, that we'reencouraging people to have our
(11:49):
relationship protectingconversations, right, it's not
just about getting the choresdone. It's about how do you
protect the relationship so thateverybody feels valued, and
everyone feels that things arefair, and that, that their
(12:10):
contribution is meaningful? Sowe're gonna move on, we're going
to add add to that, I was justgonna say
Amelia (12:18):
that the common term for what you outlined in the
statistics is the chore gap,difference for the number of
hours spent within the home, onon tasks that move the household
forward. And exactly what you'resaying is it allows for us to
(12:40):
value everyone's time equally.
And that's what builds up overover years of living together.
Without this conversation, onepartner tends to feel like their
time is not valued as much asthe other partners.
Paula (12:59):
Right, right. Well, as we said, this tends to show up over
time, but what it can look liketalk about what it can look like
early in a relationship, becausemaybe you're starting to fall
into those patterns already. Youjust maybe haven't recognized
that as a burden. So how doeshow does that show up early?
(13:23):
Well,
Amelia (13:24):
I had a client once who said to me, I know that the
moment I pick up that task orresponsibility, it will be mine
forever. So whether it is youknow, you've always been
responsible for your ownlaundry, and suddenly you find
yourself doing your partner'slaundry. And then it falls into
(13:46):
the habit that you're always thedefault laundry person, right,
the moment you pick up beingresponsible for the mail or
paying bills for the collectivefor the whole, it tends to fall
into a habit, we don't go backand discuss the routine or the
(14:07):
process for that particulartask, right. And so I think it's
really noticing the things thatyou're picking up the things
that you already are responsiblefor. And knowing that there's
always a chance to kind of pauseand open the conversation again,
like hey, can you be responsiblefor wiping down the kitchen
(14:31):
after dinner? Right, and willrotate so that one person isn't
always doing the same? EvenBrodsky calls them the daily
grind chores that seem to getunder our skin after a while.
Yeah, I've
Paula (14:46):
had conversations. I remember one conversation in
particular with a young womanwho was fairly new in a
relationship and with livingwith her partner. And she said I
do all the cooking Add on my, Ilike to cook. And I'm like,
okay, just curious, how often doyou cook? And she said a couple
(15:11):
times a week, because somenights were spent with other
people, some nights, theyordered some nights they went
out. And what I said, because Iknew this woman wanted children,
I said, Well, you have to, ifyou become that person, like you
said, I picked up that task, andit's now mine. Well, when you
(15:33):
have to, you know, you wantchildren when you have to put a
meal on the table every day, andnot just one, but multiple
meals, you know, for kids inparticular, will now that
default chore that you picked upis a different kind of chore.
But now you're already theperson. The same thing I think
(15:55):
goes for. I know a lot of womenwho take on the responsibility
of gifts, birthday holidayMother's Day gifts, and it's
like, Oh, I get I get gifts forhis mother to or I get gifts for
his nephew to or something likethat. And what, you know, again,
(16:15):
they pick up the task, it seemsfairly easy now. But it's a lot
different, particularly if youhave your own kids. And you're
doing let's say is you doChristmas, and you're doing
Christmas presents for your ownkids and everything else that
that that holiday. And thatholiday season, regardless of
which holiday you celebrateeverything that that holiday
(16:37):
takes on. So So I've tried togive my little warnings to
people that you know, you, youmight want to be mindful about
taking something on exclusively,that the demands of which may
change down the line. So
Amelia (16:53):
yeah, you point out something really great. I mean,
I think that there's there'salways an evolution, within the
tasks and responsibilities.
There's life transitions thathappen within family is. And I
think just because you pick itup doesn't mean you carry it for
ever. So it is checking back into have that conversation. Well,
Paula (17:17):
hopefully, we've made it clear that this is an issue,
that even if you're notexperiencing it as a burden,
right now, you got to try tolook forward and see what it
might look like if you decide tohave your own children, if your
work situation becomes moredemanding. And kind of if you
(17:40):
bought into the idea that theseare conversations to have now
and maybe a redistribution oftasks. Now, let's switch to
talking about how to go aboutdoing that. And this is a good
place for you to explain to usabout being a fair play
facilitator and what fair play
Amelia (18:01):
is. Sure, yeah, fair play is a time and anxiety
saving system that was developedby Yves Brodsky, she has two
best selling books about the thetopic and as a fairplay
facilitator, what I help clientsdo is really play the game. So
(18:24):
she has taken 100 of the mostcommon tasks, chores, family
responsibilities can work, asyou mentioned, taking care of
extended family. And she'screated a card system where you
can actually physically swapchores and responsibility of
cards
Paula (18:44):
is like playing cards.
Yeah. Okay. So,
Amelia (18:49):
so she's gamified it.
And the beauty is it starts withfirst customizing your deck,
every chore and responsibilityis not going to apply to every
household. So first off, you'regoing to eliminate things that
aren't relevant. And then you'regoing to have a conversation
about the humanity behind thetasks, for example, right? You
(19:13):
mentioned giving gifts toextended family. Through that
conversation, you might discoverthat one partner grew up in a
household where gift giving wasthe love language, and it was it
was just over the top everyfamily celebration was all about
(19:33):
gifts. And the other partnerjust might have grown up in a
completely different environmentwhere you know, a simple gift or
an acknowledgement spending timetogether was valued differently.
Paula (19:50):
Shaking my head a lot because I'm the my family is the
gift giving family and my myhusband's you know, not that
they don't but in my family it'sa Big deal. And you can easily
assume that other people do itthe same way you do, which is
not the case clearly. Exactly.
Amelia (20:09):
So the conversation creates. When I say the
humanity, it's understanding whyone task is important or
valuable to one partner. Andthen you get to decide, right is
this for our household is thissomething we're going to do on a
regular basis, we both agreethat it's valuable, it's
(20:30):
important it it's in line withour family, Mission priorities,
etc. And there's also anopportunity if a task is only
valued by one partner, and theother partners like, I could
care less. And there's space forconversation to say, Okay, this
(20:50):
is really important to me. So Iwill take full ownership of this
task from start to finish.
example of that might be, again,like sending holiday cards or
family photos. One partner mightnot be at all interested. But
the other say like this isimportant. I am responsible for
(21:12):
scheduling the photographerpicking out the outfits getting
the cards printed anddistributed, because it means so
much to me.
Paula (21:23):
And so how, if a couple wanted to go about kind of this
gamification, what is like, howdo you take on a task? What does
it mean to take on a task?
That's
Amelia (21:38):
a great question. And it after you define why it's
important, you're going to lookat what she calls the conception
planning and execution of thetask. So there are three steps
involved. Conception is kind ofthe hidden one, right? It is the
(22:00):
invisible load that most in instereotypical households is the
female's responsibility she'scarrying around this running to
do list in her mind, she'snoticing all the time, what's
absent, what needs to be done.
So the conception plan, phase isactually the most important, I
(22:20):
would say, of the three stepprocess, because it's noticing
that the task needs to occur.
The planning is the space forconversation where you decide
get input and say, Okay, this iswhen it's going to happen. And
(22:42):
then of course, execution we'reall familiar with, that's the
follow through.
Paula (22:48):
Just a quick pause to let you know about the free mini
course available at practicallymarried that net, sign up for
get ready to say I do to explorefive of the practically marry
subjects. In the course, you'llreceive an email about each
subject that includes helpfulsuggestions, and a brief three
(23:08):
question homework assignment toget you and your partner talking
about how you can work togetherto manage your money, your
household, your in laws, andmore. Go to practically
married.net/free-course to signup now. Okay, let's get back to
our conversation. Can you givean example for couples who are
(23:33):
in this phase of life of whatthat looks like with the
conception planning andexecution of a task?
Amelia (23:40):
Yeah, I love it. So earlier, you mentioned cooking.
So before a meal is made,someone has to go to the grocery
store and get the the items. Soif you were to break down the
conception, planning andexecution of grocery shopping,
what that would look like wouldbe going to the pantry or the
(24:02):
refrigerator and noticing whatis needed. But even more
specifically, that particularbrand that you like the amount?
Asked asking. So within in theplanning phase that would be
asking your partner, what areyou planning to make this week
what items need to go on thegrocery list so I can make sure
(24:24):
that I get them. And then it'sfollowing through grocery
shopping, putting the items awayand being responsible for any
items that might have missed thelist or not made it into the
meal. So it starts with thenoticing and really being
familiar with those tiny littledetails about what your family
(24:47):
likes to eat or likes to keep inthe pantry.
Paula (24:50):
Okay, and so what if one person says I've come up with
the idea for what we need Eat?
Why don't you go execute and dothe grocery shopping? What you
know? Like, what are thethoughts on kind of dividing up
that conception planning andexecution?
Amelia (25:13):
That's what we want to avoid. Okay? Because what that
actually does is it places themental load, the notice thing,
the keeping track of what needsto be done with one party. And
it adds the planning and theexecution to another. So it's
taking a task, and it's creatingmore work than necessary,
(25:36):
because typically, the personwho has the mental load will
always follow through and say,Hey, did you did you get that
task done? Did you get all theitems at the grocery store,
they're still carrying part ofthe weight. And that's what we
want to avoid by dividing tasksfully between partners, one
person is responsible from for atask from beginning to end. Now
(25:59):
you can take something likecooking, and have one person be
always be responsible fordinner, and another person
responsible for breakfast, thereare ways to customize the game
and the time tasks to meet yourindividual family needs. But the
goal is not to divide one tasktoo many times.
Paula (26:23):
Okay, all right. So so in this method, each partner is
taking on the full conception,planning and execution of each
task.
Amelia (26:34):
Correct. And the benefit is, is you really get your your
mental space back, you get alittle bit of lightness, and you
can focus on other otherimportant
Paula (26:49):
things. Yes, I can see that I. And again, what we're
trying to help couples do is beproactive with this. Because,
you know, you and I are both alittle further down the line in
terms of, you know, ourmarriages and families and
having kids. And I know verywell what that conception, and
(27:11):
if you take on conception andplanning, and someone else's
just executing, you know,conception and planning takes a
lot of mental energy, the mentalload is a lot of mental energy.
And then because you're soinvested in the conception and
planning, even the executionyou're managing, right? Because
(27:32):
you've already you've seen itthis far. And so you're like,
did you do that thing? You gotthat thing done? Right? Did you
do that? So you don't like yousay you don't release it until
you know that it's done.
Amelia (27:46):
And that's really important, because the wrist the
person executing the task feelsit too. Right? You feel that
outside view or that outsidevoice
Paula (27:58):
kind of micromanaging?
Yeah, kind of thing here, go
Amelia (28:01):
do this thing. And you're like, I don't have time
or space for this. It wasn't onmy plans today. So that's where
that resentment and irritationcan really start to bubble and,
and percolate.
Paula (28:15):
Okay. And so when you work with couples, What's the
process like in terms of kind ofimplementing the fairplay method
with them?
Amelia (28:28):
Yeah, so I like to really go back to the basics,
and figure out throughconversation, what the common
core mission is for thepartnership.
Paula (28:45):
So this is you sitting down with the couple and just
having that initialconversation, to ask them their
goals and mission and values
Amelia (28:54):
like, like, what is why are we together as a household?
What do we want our ourhousehold to look like? What are
our main priorities when itcomes to caring for our space,
caring for each other, andcaring for our future? So we
start there, because it createsa safe space for everyone to be
(29:16):
on the same speed page. Then Ipersonally work with the
partners individually, to kindof get a sense of what they feel
like they're currentlyresponsible for. As a coach, I
leave space to explore anyemotion that might come up
(29:37):
around responsibilities and justcheck in with each individual.
And then we have time togetheras a facilitation. So I've heard
both sides and I can see maybewhere the rough edges are for
the collective conversation. Sobringing everyone back together
(29:59):
and say Like, Oh, I noticed thatthis was important to you, but
not so much to you. Okay, wheredo we want to land on
responsibility for thisparticular task? And then just
help them formulate a plan? Howoften do we want to check in and
swap tasks, because part of thisis also, we don't want to be
(30:21):
talking about chores and tasksand responsibilities all week
long, right? It's reallycreates, defining a time, maybe
a half hour on a, on a morningwhen emotions are low that we
can check in and say, Hey,here's what's coming up for the
week. What do you want to beresponsible for? Here's what I'd
(30:41):
like to be responsible for justcreating an a structure to have
that conversation over and overweek by week, because it is an
evolving game, it is an evolvinghousehold.
Paula (30:56):
Right? Okay. And so is that what you recommend with
couples that they check in on aweekly basis to squat?
Amelia (31:05):
Yeah, a week on a weekly basis is probably the standard.
I notice with folks who haveADHD, more frequent check ins
might be better, because thattask will either slip, slip
their mind or needs a level ofpressure or importance to make
sure that it's executed. Andthat creates for a better
(31:28):
conversation to say, we're goingto check in three times
throughout the week for 10minutes, to keep on top of
things rather than wait untilthe week is passed. But of
course, you could do it everyother week, you would customize
for what makes sense for yourbrain in your home. Okay,
Paula (31:46):
and I have to ask now, what happens when the partners
don't really see it the sameway, because I know there's I
can't quote the exact statistic,but everybody is over estimating
their contribution to the pointwhere it's like one partner
thinks they do, you know, 80%,the other partner thinks they do
(32:07):
70%. And somehow, you know,we're over 100%, you know, in
terms of the estimation of work.
So I gotta imagine that it'spretty common for the partners
that you work with, to not agreeon how they're currently
dividing the labor in thehousehold,
Amelia (32:24):
for sure. And there are solutions so that you can track
your time, what you're doingwhen you can just really create
a space safe space to be honestwith yourself, because
oftentimes, what we find is thatpeople are doing, I call it
overworking, they're doing waymore on a daily basis. And they
(32:48):
might actually not necessarilyneed to be doing but want to be
doing. If it's not important tothe family. That's the first
part is determining, like, do weneed to have a Spotless kitchen
before we go to bed every night?
Right.
Paula (33:02):
So that's that standard of care issue? Can you speak to
that a little bit? I know that'sa that's one of the components
of the fairplay method, right?
Amelia (33:10):
For sure. That's the minimum standard of care. So
defining for creating a commonlanguage between partners about
what clean or done or tidy mightmean. Because when we go through
conception, planning andexecution, right execution,
might mean or completion mightmean different things to
(33:34):
different folks. So I've hadfolks who have said, Okay, a
clean kitchen to me is when allthe counters are wiped down, the
sink is empty, the sink has beenwiped out the, you know, the
drain has been run, the disheshave been dried and put away,
like versus someone else havemight have a more minimal
(33:58):
guideline for what a cleankitchen might look like. And we
forget that we don't alwaysdefine that for one another.
Paula (34:07):
Right? And so that's, that's a really important thing,
I would think to negotiate.
Because if you're taking thaton, and your partner is like,
Hey, you're not finished,there's still the clean dishes
are still sitting on the side ofthe sink or something like that.
But then in that case, like ifI'm the partner who thinks, as
long as the dishes are clean,and they're on the drying rack,
(34:30):
I'm done. They'll get put awaytomorrow. If the other partner
is like, my, I want you toactually dry them and put them
away, then how do you kind ofnegotiate that like? Well, I'll
ask you the question, how do younegotiate that because I'm
thinking, if you're this partnerwith the higher standard, do you
then have to step in?
Amelia (34:54):
So perfectionism exists, right? Some of us have those
higher standards andexpectations and the key is in
the conversation, right. So theminimum standard of care is the
minimum standard, perhaps thatthe person who wants it tidier
(35:14):
can tolerate. And remember, thechores and tasks are swapped on
a weekly basis on a monthlybasis, you're trading tasks. And
the purpose of that is so thateveryone in the home understands
how to do a task in theirspecial way. In case someone is
(35:35):
sick in case you know, life getsbusy in case somebody loses a
job, we want everyone to knowhow to do all of the things
because it creates fairness andequity in the home. And so
really deciding what thatminimum standard of care is
essential because then everyoneunderstands exactly what's the
(36:01):
what's the least we can get byto to stave off that irritation
or resentment.
Paula (36:07):
Okay. Well, I am also in addition to the I think the
fairplay method has a lot ofvalue. I'm also a fan of
outsourcing where you can andobviously, that takes some
financial resources. But I dothink of that as an investment
in the relationship. Because ifyou can, if you can outsource
(36:29):
some of that household labor,you think less than some of that
resentment that can build up.
But you also free up more timethat you can spend together as a
couple of doing something thatyou enjoy. Where, you know, how
do you work with couples, orhow, how has it come up for you
with couples and outsourcing?
Amelia (36:49):
I think the key with outsourcing is to understand, so
the difference between equitablelever and delegating is that
delegating still requires a bitof the mental load. So when
you're outsourcing, you stillhave to be mindful that someone
has to supervise theoutsourcing. So you still have
(37:13):
an an element or a layer to chatabout, someone still has to own
the task of making sure thegroceries are delivered, or
making sure that thehousekeepers are booked. So the
the load is definitely lighter.
And I would encourage folks whocan outsource or if there's
tasks that are just generally noone wants to do, that you're
(37:39):
gonna save time and energy byoutsourcing. But beware that you
should take responsibility forthe mental aspect of planning
that delegation.
Paula (37:52):
Now, that's a really great point because we use a
meal prep service. And it'sgreat in terms of taking care of
some of the can some of theconception of what meal we're
going to have and some of theplanning because the groceries
are delivered. But every weekthat has to be managed as to
selecting meals, that'ssomething my husband does, but
(38:14):
it has to be managed. And if itdoesn't arrive, they have to be
notified. And there's definitelyan ongoing mental aspect to that
it does lighten the load. Butthere is still load, right. And
then when it comes tohousekeepers, that's something I
do. So making sure they arepaid, oh, it's the holidays,
(38:35):
where there's going to be abonus, or we can't have them
come this particular week orsomething like that. So it's
managing that process. Butagain, I say, I think it's a
great investment in yourrelationship if you can lighten
the load on one or both of you.
Amelia (38:56):
And the thing that I want to share is that the goal
of the Fair Play Method or justanything that you Institute
within your household should beto free up time for both
partners to have time with adultfriends. Time to pursue a
personal passion. Time for selfcare, right? As the relationship
(39:21):
grows, there's still theindividual that needs space to
be the individual within therelationship. And when you
create a system or aconversation around household
chores and and equitable labor,then what you do is you allow
each person 30 minutes an hour,three hours a week, to kind of
(39:46):
go off and be their individualadult human self outside of the
partnership and outside of justthe daily grind of running a
household. Right. Well, I'm
Paula (39:58):
glad you pointed that out. because what I suggested
was that free time was time foryou as a couple. But that
doesn't encompass everything,that's extra time potentially as
a couple, but potentially foryou as individuals, to, to
fulfill yourselves in variousways through your interests and
(40:18):
bring those best selves, itstill benefits the relationship,
even if you're doing somethingseparately, because you're
bringing a more fulfilled selfback into the relationship and
back into the home.
Amelia (40:30):
Yes, and that's it. That is what the resentment and
irritation turns into, it turnsinto one person feeling like
they're doing all of the choresand tasks and having no free
time, and then are just not asexciting of a person to be
around in the relationship.
Paula (40:51):
Right? Well, let's go back to you working with
couples, when? So you're havingthese conversations with them?
And then how does it how do youkind of get them to implement
their plan? And then follow upwith them to? Or do they follow
up with you and say, Hey, thisis working great, or we're
(41:12):
having some struggles?
Amelia (41:14):
Yep. So I typically work weekly one to one with, well,
we'll do some collectivesessions, we'll do some one to
one sessions, and then we'llcome back together. And, and in
between, you know, folks areworking on one or two tasks on
their own. Most people thinkthey look at the 100 cards, and
(41:35):
they're like, this isoverwhelming, I can't, in any
way possibly get through it. SoI like to give lots of space and
time to the process. So it'sokay to sort of work on chore of
one or two chores per week, andlearn to fully go through the
(41:56):
process. And then check back inwith each other check back in
with me, how's it going? Becausewhen you take on the whole, the
whole load, they're gonnaquickly see the house of cards,
I think, fall apart. Right?
Paula (42:10):
And do you work with couples? Virtually? Yes,
Amelia (42:13):
yes, absolutely.
Paula (42:15):
That's good to know.
Because I could imagine ascenario where you're in the
house, have you do home visitsas well. But I can imagine
because you also do organizing,which is a little bit different
topic. But frankly, what I'malways very interested in,
because my dream is to have aperfectly organized house, and
(42:35):
that everyone would puteverything back just where I
want it to be. It's still adream, clearly,
Amelia (42:44):
I think it is for everyone. And I will offer that
organizing systems and routinesare amazing and beneficial. And
there will always still belaundry, you will always still
be meals to be cooked and thingsto be put away. So it's a nice
goal, but not to think about itas a destination of perfection.
Paula (43:09):
Yes, well, I know but a girl can dream. Okay, what if,
if couples want to learn moreabout the Fair Play system hang
with the cards? You mentionedthe cards? Are those physical
cards, like do you? How doesthat work with the cards, I just
(43:30):
want to make sure people can canlearn more about the process if
they want to follow through onit. For
Amelia (43:36):
sure. Yep. Everyone can get a copy of the cards free and
downloadable on my website,which is a pleasant
solution.com. And there'sdefinitely that in the show
notes so people can guide it.
There's information of how towork with me. And then I have a
link also to her books, thecards and there's actually also
(43:56):
a documentary that's available.
That's great to watch, becauseit's you see real couples going
through this process and havingthis conversation.
Paula (44:07):
Good, good. Good. Okay, well, I'm glad we can have this
conversation because I reallyfeel strongly that this is
something that couples need totackle proactively. It's like,
I've known to many couples, justpersonally, but I know the
statistics and the researcharound what happens when people
get entrenched in taking oncertain responsibilities. And
(44:32):
then to try to revisit it isit's more challenging. So if
couples can do this now, kind ofearlier in their relationships,
and certainly before havingchildren. I just think they'll
there'll be so much better off.
Amelia (44:49):
Yes, you're in a place that the system can grow and
evolve with you and your family.
Yes.
Paula (44:57):
All right. Great. Well, thank you so much. million for
joining us and I like I said, Iwill have all the resources that
you mentioned in the show notes.
Amelia (45:07):
Thank you so much for having me.
Paula (45:14):
For more information on a million words, you can visit her
website, a pleasantsolution.com. You can also
listen to her podcast, apleasant solution, embracing and
organized life and follow her onInstagram at a pleasant
solution. Check out the shownotes for all these links and to
(45:34):
get the fairplay cards wediscussed in this episode
thanks for joining us this week.
If you like what you hear,subscribe to practically marry
wherever you get your podcast.
(45:57):
You can also follow the show onInstagram at get practically
married and send us a DM if youand your partner want to come on
the show and talk to one of ourexperts. Please take a moment to
leave us a review and hopefullya five star rating. But the best
way to support the show would beto tell someone about it. Tell
your friends, your family, yourwedding vendors and even your
(46:20):
therapist. But most of all,share it with your partner.
That's all for now. Have a goodone.
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