June 14, 2023 • 51 mins
Christie Kim, therapist and co-host of the Beyond the Couch podcast joins us to discuss the various ways culture and identity impact our intimate relationships. We start the conversation by emphasizing the importance of self-reflection and how using a social identity wheel is useful in determining which aspects of our identity we prioritize. Christie goes on to to explain differences in collectivist vs individualist cultures and gives examples of possible expectations of partners from collectivist backgrounds.
Later, Christie describes some of the ways identity can impact our relationships on a daily basis, from where we live, to how often we see our families/in-laws, and even how we pay for weddings. She encourages us to come to win-win compromises, and gives practical solutions to some common relationship challenges.
Finally, we discuss how couples can navigate difficult events in society such as police shootings and hate crimes.
Learn more about Christie Kim's work:
- Christie Kim Psychotherapy
- Bridges (a resource to support the mental health of Asian, Pacific Islander & South Asian Americans)
- @bridgesmentalhealth on Instagram
- Beyond the Couch (a podcast exploring the intersection of Asian, Pacific Islander & South Asian American identity and mental health)
Additional resources:
- Social Identity Wheel
- 10 Questions Checklist (download this FREE list of questions covering each of the Practically Married subjects)
If you like what you heard...
- Follow Practically Married with Paula Holt on your favorite podcast platform to get every episode!
- Visit PracticallyMarried.net/Newsletter to sign up and receive even more relationship info and resources!
- Follow @getpracticallymarried on Instagram to tell us about your experiences using the strategies you hear on the show!
Edited by Veronica Gruba
Music by Sage Holt-Hall
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Paula (00:00):
Even if you and your partner share the same cultural
(00:02):
background, or you don'tstrongly identify with your
background, there's still a lotto gain from this episode.
Because we are shaped byidentity in various ways,
whether it's gender, race, oreven the identity and customs of
our own family. And that'ssomething to talk about when
you're planning a futuretogether. All right, let's get
(00:24):
into it.
Welcome to practically married,the podcast created to help
dating engaged and newly marriedcouples prepare for healthy long
(00:48):
term committed relationships.
I'm Paula Holt. And on thisshow, I'm gonna bring you
conversations with experts whowill give you tools to take your
relationship to the next level.
Although many of our guests willbe therapists, please keep in
mind that practically married isfor educational purposes only,
(01:08):
and is not a substitute fortherapy with a licensed
professional. Hi, thanks forjoining me. Today I want to jump
right into our conversationabout navigating culture and
identity in the context ofromantic relationships. My guest
is Christy Kim, a licensedmental health counselor, and one
(01:30):
of the hosts of the podcastbeyond the couch, which explores
the intersection of AsianPacific Islander and South Asian
American identity and mentalhealth. Chrissy also helps these
communities seek and navigatemental health care as a co
founder of bridges, a hub ofresources that includes a
(01:50):
directory of culturallyresponsive therapists. So let's
meet Christie Kim. Hi, Christy,welcome to the practically
married podcast.
Christie (02:02):
Hi, Paula. Thanks for having me. I'm very excited to
chat with you.
Paula (02:05):
Well, I am excited to have you here to discuss a topic
that is really growing inimportance because of the number
of couples that this impacts andthat is the issue of culture.
But before we get to that, Iwant to say that I hear on your
podcast that you kind of havealways known you wanted to be a
therapist. Oh, yes.
Christie (02:28):
I wanted to and fantasized about the career
since I was a kid. And thenslowly, I think just each step
at a time I've found myself hereactually.
Paula (02:38):
I think that's that's pretty rare. I don't you know,
you don't hear that too much. Soyou, maybe you have a call or
calling that came to you early?
Did you always know because youhave a specialty a special
interest in issues of identityand culture? Did you always know
that you wanted to kind of focuson that area? Was that something
you came to later?
Christie (02:59):
Um, actually, what I knew I wanted to focus on was
couples work. And then theidentity stuff came. As I moved
through grad school, it became amore fundamental part of the
curriculum, and also just awider national discussion around
race, politics, social identity,like where we find ourselves and
(03:19):
what that means about ourexperience. So that's kind of
then melded into an like afundamental part of how I do
work with couples andindividuals. But yeah, my the
couple's work has always been atthe heart for me.
Paula (03:32):
Yeah. And since we are going to be talking about issues
of identity and culture, wouldyou mind sharing how you
identify?
Christie (03:39):
Yes, I am a Korean American second generation sis
woman. And, yeah, those might bethe most read salient or
resonant for today. But is thereanything else? I
Paula (03:56):
can? No, no, no, that covers it. And I am a black
woman, African American. Sis,what else? Did you say? I want
to make sure I cover all theones under one gender. Yes. So
and I think that's, you know,important for people to know,
because it's relevant to ourexperiences. And kind of how we
(04:20):
might see this topic. Just justfor people to have a sense of,
of who we are. So, yes. And, youknow, part of the reason we
identify ourselves is because inany situation, you're dealing
with a couple, each person hasto reflect on their perspective
(04:42):
of identity, and culture. Ithink before you can really talk
about something with yourpartner in a meaningful way. It
helps to have a betterunderstanding on how you feel
about the topic. And so howwould you in thinking about
someone who was in the stage oftheir relationship seriously
(05:02):
dating, engaged or maybe evennewly married? How would you
recommend that they go aboutstarting these conversations and
starting the issue of selfexploration first?
Christie (05:14):
Yes, I totally agree with you, Paula, and the value
of understanding how we findourselves first as individuals.
And of course, I imagine ifpeople are at that point of of
their partnership, they havenoticed differences, or maybe
notice similarities in theirculture, how they were raised,
or how they kind of view, livinglife building life together. But
(05:36):
I would start with this socialidentity wheel, which is a
really helpful tool and kind ofmapping out where individuals
lie within the larger scheme ofsociety, culture being in the US
specifically, there's a lot ofcultural nuances about being
here versus other countries, butalso, then what it looks like as
we move closer to the individualfrom the family of origin to
(06:00):
racial ethnic identities. And sothe social identity will start
with a few things, maybe at thecore, and some kind of internal
ways of identifying like yourage, sexual orientation,
identity, ethnicity, race,gender, and then abilities. And
then they're more broad, or whatwe might suggest is like
(06:23):
external facing external factorsof social identity, from marital
status, from what kind of careerjob you have social class,
things like that. And we mightuse this, we should provide the
wheel as a reference, yes,
Paula (06:41):
we'll definitely provide the wheel. Okay,
Christie (06:43):
great. Yeah. So what I would suggest is, is whether it
becomes an individualreflection, or it's something
that you and your partner, folksin their partner might process
together as like, what parts ofthe wheel do I feel most
relevant, or as most salient doI think about most often, and
(07:03):
what parts might I think aboutleast often, because it helps
kind of give us a little bit ofcontext for where one person one
person's experience isinfluenced by all of these
different pieces of culture. Andallows there to be some common
language there,
Paula (07:21):
I want to emphasize, even if you are of the same cultural
background, these areconversations to have because
everyone doesn't experienceculture in the same way. And so
from the beginning, if you're acouple of us have the same
background, you might not thinkthis episode is for you. But I
promise you it is because theseare conversations that you can
(07:43):
still benefit from because theseare issues around identity as
well. But um, but one of thethings is to reflect on what
role did culture play in yourupbringing? Because it's not
just about kind of where you arenow. But what are the
experiences you've had to shapeyou into the person you are and
the person you you are bringingcoming into the relationship?
(08:05):
Can you speak to that a littlebit kind of the upbringing part?
Christie (08:08):
Yeah, I think that intimate partnerships is one of
those gifts because it helpsilluminate where we might have
illuminate wet might have feltautomatic or almost like the
water we were swimming in mostof our lives because when we
build start building a life withsomeone then all of the little
differences or idiosyncrasiesthat felt so normal for us might
(08:30):
feel very new or strange foryour partner. And so noticing
even How do you feel around likecelebrations are birthdays a big
deal or are holidays a big dealwhere everyone gathers or is
there meaning around holidaysthat you celebrate that your
partner might even if you comefrom a similar background, some
(08:50):
other pieces that often comes upto in my work with couples is
their generation status. So, ifthey are first generation versus
second generation, there mightbe a lot of differences and how
you expect to play out factorsof your parts of your culture in
your family life
Paula (09:09):
as an example of that.
Yes,
Christie (09:11):
so, one of the ones that that comes up often is kind
of this cultural idea of familyover everything or family first,
which might be common among alot of more collectivist
families or cultures, whichessentially means that kind of
valuing the group or the familyor the larger community over the
(09:33):
individual compared to the inmore individualist culture where
in the US we are veryemphasizing on the individual
independence do what you want.
So when there are differencesand whether family comes first,
that is a really, a lot of timespeople will agree on that idea
itself. But what thatpractically means is do our in
(09:53):
laws expect to visit howevermany times a year and then when
they visit Do they expect tostay at our home? Or do we
expect
Paula (10:04):
long do they expect to stay at home?
Christie (10:08):
much do they had much do we accommodate our lives?
When in laws visit? How much arewe expected to visit them? Or
family over everything mightalso look like? Monies is no, no
issue when we're talking aboutfamily?
Paula (10:21):
I think the first generation second generation
piece is is particularlyrelevant for some people.
Christie (10:28):
Hmm, sure. Yeah.
There's different elements aboutaround it. Do you
Paula (10:33):
find with that? Are there tendencies for some people to or
I guess it varies by individual,but some people kind of holding
on more to their culture oforigin? And some people wanting
to be more, quote unquote,American? Do you see that clash
(10:53):
a lot in your work? Yeah,
Christie (10:55):
definitely. Because sometimes there is, this will
comes up with a lot of Asianfolks. And a lot of Latino
individuals, too, can be likethe family over everything kind
of aspect. That if a familymember or our parents call for
help, that we drop everything,and there's no question about
it, we are just there for them.
And some individuals might bepartnered with someone who feels
(11:19):
like no, my parents don't,aren't, they don't ask me for
that much help. Or if they doask for help, I feel full agency
to be able to say yes and nowhen I want to. And I don't want
to feel like we have to visitthe in laws every single month
or every other weekend. Andthose elements come in because
if you are more connected to thecollectivist idea or want to
(11:40):
spend feel more obligated tospending time with your family,
it might feel like a little bitof defensiveness of like, how
could you ask me not to do thisthing. This is how we've always
been, or this is what my parentshave always expected for me. And
they've sacrificed so much. Soof course, I'm going to do this
favor for them in return. Butthat could also impact how
partners feel between each otherof like, well, what's where are
(12:03):
we able to make our owndecisions as a team as opposed
to feeling like you're alwaysleaving off or going to your
parents, for example?
Paula (12:12):
Right? So I guess going back a little bit when we talk
about first reflecting on yourown experience around culture,
your own beliefs and values. Aswe're saying, maybe each partner
can have that conversation. Andwe're assuming these are people
who are in, you know, in aserious relationship, but you've
certainly had conversations. ButI think the key here is to
(12:35):
almost treat this relationshipas new new in the sense that
you're going into a new phase.
And so kind of pull back andstart from the beginning, have
those self reflections aroundculture and identity? And then I
guess the next piece, and wesay, have those reflections, not
only in terms of like the socialidentity wheel, but also your
experiences growing up? And howthat culture play out for you?
(12:59):
And then how is it a part ofyour identity today? And in your
values and in your practices?
Right? Yeah,
Christie (13:09):
I agree with like the approaching it as a new
conversation, because it allowsyou to be curious and open and
ask questions that the idea ofwhat do we do about this? Or
what do we do about thedifferences that can come much
later. But even just to starthaving those conversations often
and consistently, if there's anydiscomfort, those muscles will
(13:31):
get stronger, and the discomforthopefully will go away? or
lessen over the course of many
Paula (13:37):
years? Well, another thing it seems like it's
important for partners toreflect on individually and then
move into a conversation thatthey're having together is how
did I imagine my culture and myidentity to play out in my
relationship? And my marriage?
Did I expect to attend thesecertain cultural events by
(13:58):
myself? Or did I expect that mypartner will come with me?
Children? I mean, some couplesmay be some years away from
children. But what's the youknow, what's the image you had
in your mind about how yourchildren might be raised in
terms of your culturalbackground?
Christie (14:18):
Yeah, that's, that's a lovely place to start, because
some people might have had thissubconscious image of what their
future family would look like,or what their partnership would
look like. And sometimes, Inoticed that couples feel a
little bit, our partners feel alittle reticent to share what
they envisioned or feel like ofcourse, my partner is like on
(14:39):
board with this idea, even if ithasn't been explicitly spoken
about. So giving a picture or ascene to what you envision of
like our family coming over atthis time or celebrating
holidays, just us to whateverthat ends up looking like of
sharing this picture. So yourpartner not only has an idea of
what it looks like But maybe youstart to craft this image
(15:02):
together and start to share asimilar vision. Right?
Paula (15:05):
Well, that's a great segue into what I was going to
ask you next, which is, onceyou've had that personal
reflection, and you want tostart to share with your
partner, and have thatunderstanding of each other,
what's kind of the nextpractical step because this is
practically, practically marrypodcasts. So what are those next
practical steps in terms ofplanning a life with someone of
(15:29):
a different culture? Hmm.
Christie (15:32):
So one example I have is a couple where one spoke
Spanish as their first languageand was very connected to their
family. And the other was, like,grew up and grew up in the US.
And, but it was important to forthe for the first partner to
(15:54):
have their future children speakthe language that he was
comfortable with. And so part ofhow they knit it into their
family life overall, was thatthey would spend a couple of
weeks every year in the countrywhere he was from. And so that
allows the children to haveexposure to all of the cultural
(16:15):
influences, and also build thatconnection for themselves and
speaking the language at homeraising their children with two
languages. And that was a bigpart of tying in how they're
going to raise their family andthe culture of their family into
both partners, both parents.
Paula (16:33):
Now in that situation, did the partner speak Spanish or
any Spanish?
Christie (16:41):
The partner didn't speak Spanish. But that's also
another piece of like, if thereare other languages that are
spoken on either side of acouple of Couplehood of how
important is it that yourpartner learns the language that
either you grew up in or youspeak with your grandparents or
vice versa? Because there mightbe times when the whole family
(17:02):
is speaking Spanish or the wholefamily speaking Korean or
another language, and thenthere's a little bit of
isolation that the partner mightfeel. But even sometimes
learning a few phrases or likebeing curious about it,
sometimes I've seen partnerstake language classes so that
they can learn their partner'sfamily's language, feeling like
a really beautiful way to Yes,connects with your partners,
(17:26):
culture yourself. And so youhave a direct relationship where
you might have a directappreciation for all of the
beautiful things that come fromanother culture. I
Paula (17:34):
would think that would go a long way in terms of showing
your partner but also showingyour partner's family how much
you're committed to therelationship and the greater
family in general. Yes,absolutely. So okay, get those
language classes going. Can youspeak a little bit more about
(17:55):
some of the things so Okay, solanguage, we referenced this
briefly, holidays and sometraditions? What are some of the
other ways that couples shouldtalk about culture? You know, as
they're moving from the selfreflection to now? How is this
going to play out in our day today lives? What are some of the
ways some of the things thatshould be discussed and kind of
(18:17):
planned for? Yeah, I
Christie (18:19):
think another important one is, especially if
there's a multicultural couple.
So I've worked with a couplewhere when identified as black,
and when identified as white,and the black partner, it was
really important to them to livein a metropolitan area, or a
community that was quitediverse, where they wouldn't
(18:40):
feel like the only person ofcolor or in addition that their
future children would have a lotof friends who looked like them,
or a lot of diversity. Andaround the place where they were
raised,
Paula (18:53):
I can see where being in a diverse neighborhood and not
wanting to kind of always be theonly one will be important. Oh,
yes, yeah. So go ahead. I'msorry, you were saying is living
in the neighborhood, rightthere, that's housing choosing
your neighborhood. That's one Ihadn't thought about.
Christie (19:12):
It adds a new layer, because the partner who
identifies as white does careabout being by their family, and
their family lives in a moreremote area where there's less
diversity there. So there'snaturally two different poles
there and it might feel inconflict. But there might be an
importance around both of thepartners having enough safety to
(19:33):
talk about why they really valuethe thing that they're pulling
for. So and especially there's aconsideration for not only the
being around other diversepeople, but how that impacts the
psychological safety or how safeyou feel. And when the physical
safety, especially the physicalsafety as well how you feel in
(19:54):
your home, your neighborhood.
Going to the grocery store is animportant piece that your
partner might not experience thesame thing, they might be of a
different gender different race,they don't actually feel what it
feels like for you to move intothose spaces. But the hope is
that you can share it in a waythat invites your partner in to
understand what it actuallyfeels like for you. As opposed
(20:15):
to seeing just that you want tolive in a diverse neighborhood
or just that you want to live byyour parents. So it's like, why
is that important? What's thevalue of being around your
parents or the value of feelinglike you're in a space with a
lot of people who look like you?
It looks
Paula (20:32):
on my so. So that's, you know, where you live. What else
what other considerations kindof on that day to day practical
level,
Christie (20:40):
on the day to day practical level, I think a lot
of it comes down to language andwords. So not necessarily
speaking other languages, but wemight have implicit ideas about
something we say, and think thatit's not a big deal. But the way
that our partner might hear itcould be connected to other past
wounds, other relationships,other conversations, even that
(21:02):
they've been in. And so the keyof being clear about what you're
saying, but also being clearabout what you hear from your
partner, so at least you'respeaking the same emotional
language, you understand whatthe feelings actually mean, as
opposed to this general sense ofyou don't understand me, you
know, or it might feel to me andmy family, like being sarcastic
(21:26):
and making jokes is how weinteract. But then if I bring in
a partner into it, or if someonewho's not used to it starts to
feel a little defensive, orthey're confused why you're
making all of these jokes, orbeing playful or something like
that. There's even like theculture of the the home impacts
how you might be feeling andclarifying, like, you know, that
(21:47):
felt a little off to me, isthere something else you meant
by that, or when you said this,I really didn't know what you
meant, or I felt a littledefensive, breaking down all of
those potentialmiscommunications so that as
you're building the language ofthe culture of your home
together, there's more alignmentand understanding and empathy,
as opposed to just assuming thatour partner should get us if the
(22:10):
if we're this committed to themalready.
Paula (22:12):
All right. Well, that's true in in all couples, right?
Don't Don't assume that, youknow, some of the other things I
think about, you know, kind ofsharing a life and sharing a
home together, or things likefood, even if you are of a
culture where you have differentfood, preferences, or
(22:33):
traditions, that can besomething to get used to. And
Christie (22:37):
in a lot of families, food is either what is sometimes
the expression of love, youknow, that's maybe the only
experience of love you got fromyour parents. Or it was always
like the olive branch use whenthere's conflict, or that's
where everyone gathers tocelebrate around food. And if
that's how you grew up, or howyou are not that you can impact
(22:59):
what you might assume. You wantto celebrate or assume how food
is part of your life together.
Paula (23:04):
And I know you you mentioned money before, that's
another day to day kind ofpractical thing.
Christie (23:10):
Yeah, that's something especially for For those
planning a wedding can come in,because I worked with a couple
where one partner kind ofassumed and was really
comfortable with debt, andassumed that weddings included a
lot of debt. And the partnerthat they were with, did not
have that perspective at all.
They prefer to not have debtwould rather use savings or
(23:30):
their family had been saving forthe occasion for many, many
years. And so that becomes likeanother conflicting point of, of
course, we're going to have debtwhere the wedding versus how
dare we incur more debt?
Vacation? Yeah.
Paula (23:49):
Hey, just a quick break in this interview, to let you
know about one of the freeresources available at
practically married dotnet.
Download our 10 Questionschecklist. So you and your
partner can answer questionsfrom each of the 10 practically
Mary's subjects, includingmoney, sex, in laws and more.
After you answer all thequestions, send me a DM and gay
(24:10):
practically married and let meknow how it went. Okay, back to
our conversation. Let's let'stransition into talking about
family and friends a little bitmore. Because going back to the
collectivist versusindividualist, that can be a big
issue and especially like I saywhen families come into the
(24:35):
home, so I think a lot of peoplehave this sense, especially if
you've kind of been raised inAmerican culture and kind of is
that's really a part of you.
That individual sense of this ismy home. I'll do whatever you
want me to do outside but in myhome like I should be able to
XYZ but for some people, theirfamily coming into their home
(25:00):
It's kind of like an open doorpolicy. Yeah. So
Christie (25:04):
people are dropping by all the time. Right? Is
Paula (25:07):
that Is that something that you see in terms of your
practice? Where your couples arestruggling, I guess over those
family boundaries? Oh,
Christie (25:15):
yes. Because it's well, sometimes the expectation
is that we are going to livevery close to my parents, or one
partner wants to live very closewithin like a 10 minute walk of
their parents, and they expectto see their family once a week,
and their partner should comewith them. And their partner
might feel like that's a lot. Imight see my family once a year.
(25:36):
And the idea of seeing your inlaws and feeling all of the
dynamics and even if even ifthey love each other, that it
can still feel like a huge gapbetween how each of them
expected to do that. And that'sanother thing that comes in even
with the expectations aroundlike aging parents or aging
elders in the family, how are weplanning to financially take
(25:57):
care of them physically offerthem care, go to medical
appointments with them? Or is itsomething that we would rather
hire like a home health aide tohelp them? All of those kind of
cultural impacts of like, what,how much do we honor the family?
How do we take care of ourelders versus kind of wood?
Having someone support them inthe home feel like a non starter
(26:21):
like that? It'd be so offensiveto even suggest it versus how
dare we not visit my familyevery other weekend? Well,
Paula (26:29):
can you give an example of like, how do you navigate
that? How do you help a couplenavigate that is like the
example you gave. So it's myexpectation that we're gonna
live 10 minutes away from myparents, and we're going to see
them every weekend. And it'syour expectation that we are not
going to see them every weekend,how I'm sure that has come up,
(26:50):
some version of that hasprobably come up a lot, because
you know, because of the natureof your work, not only just with
couples, but with couples withcultural differences. And so how
do you what are some, again,practical ways that couples can
negotiate and navigate thatissue?
Christie (27:07):
negotiates a great word, because I tend to kind of
facilitate this process of let'sstart with everyone putting
everything on the table,everything is an option at this
point. So this is important tome, because XYZ and each partner
adds on their piece of it. Andthen we let all of this just be
(27:28):
true looking at this proverbialtable together, because there's
a risk and saying no too early,and our risk of saying no to our
own need too early. So if wejust assume everything is open,
fair game, what does it feellike when we all sit together,
either two partners, or me andour therapist and a partner, and
(27:48):
look at each option together? Sohow would it feel if we spent
every weekend or lived 10minutes away? And so over the
course of considering everyoption, how does this feel? How
would it actually feel to goevery other weekend? And these
are my concerns, you might addon that? So here's what might
feel like, here's what I wouldreally value about it. And then
(28:10):
here are some concerns of whatit might feel like to do that.
And then we go through each partof it, so that the couple finds
their their eventual sort ofagreement over time together, as
opposed to feeling like eitherone has to make all of the
decision or all of thesacrifice.
Paula (28:27):
What are some of the negotiated solutions you've
seen?
Christie (28:30):
Mm hmm. Negotiated solutions is an instance
Paula (28:34):
like us. I want my partner to go to my parents
every weekend, we do Sundaydinner every weekend. I
remember. I mean, this wasn'tparticularly culturally
relevant, I don't think but youknow, maybe so. But I used to
have breakfast with my dad,every Sunday. And so if that if
(28:54):
your every Sunday kind ofperson, let's say and your
partner is like, Yeah, butfootball comes on on Sunday, or
whatever, whatever theirpractice might be. What are some
of the solutions, specificsolutions that you've seen?
Work? I'm curious.
Christie (29:09):
Yeah. So I would say it? Well, some practical
solutions I've seen is that,okay, instead of every weekend,
we go once a month, but thepartner who really wants to see
their family gets the option,they might go every weekend, but
the partner gets the option tosay, Okay, I'm happy to visit
your family once a month. And soon that time, I'll be there,
(29:29):
I'll be present. I'll be happyto be there. And then the other
weekends, when you go off onyour own, I'll totally support
you and we'll come back andcelebrate that we're back
together. Or there can be thisgeneral posture of I would
rather be able to opt in asopposed to feeling like a half
to opt out and go through thetension of saying, Oh, I can't
come this weekend or whatever itis. And that sets like kind of
(29:51):
level sets the expectations ofmy partner gets to choose when
they happily say yes, as opposedto when they have to resentfully
or pray. cheerfully say no. Thatcan, as long as and I would say
this as a general guideline isthe hope is to come to an
agreement where you both feellike you're winning. So
(30:13):
compromises and couples therapyoften feels like okay, what am I
having to sacrifice or bend? Butthe hope is actually shifting
more towards like, Where can weboth win and feel like it's
actually a win? And if we're notthere yet, if one person still
feels resentful, or still feelsobligated, we're not at the
agreement yet.
Paula (30:31):
Okay. And would you say that that's similar in dealing
with friend groups that thatneed to negotiate some type of
agreement around how often we'regoing to see particular groups
of friends? Oh, yeah.
Christie (30:48):
That also comes into the sort of like the community
around the partnership. Becausehow important are these friends
are? If I don't really jive withone group of the partners,
friends, then do I get theoption to say no. Or there might
be this like, explicit agreementthat I will you are always
(31:10):
invited. But you don't alwayshave to come. And if you come
once or twice the times likethis, my favorite friends are my
core group of people gettogether that feels meaningful
enough to me, but having theidea of like, what is the actual
threshold? How many times wouldyou really love for me to be
there? versus feeling thistension? When they say no, on
(31:31):
occasion, like just being clearon the expectations there?
Paula (31:34):
Okay, so it's like, come when it's my friend's special
birthday celebration, but whenit's just regular brunch? You
don't? You don't have to haveExactly, yes. Okay. And so, I
think about like the friendgroup, I mean, for some people,
their friend group is likefamily, especially if their
family is far away. Andsometimes if you are of a
(31:57):
different culture than yourpartner, you may have family
that lives in another country.
And so your kind of friend groupbecomes that surrogate family.
But I can see where there's notonly the partners, who feel like
maybe uncomfortable coming. ButI guess what's your
responsibility in trying to makeit more comfortable for them to
come?
Christie (32:19):
Mm hmm. Yeah, in general, and that applies
Paula (32:23):
to family and friends.
Right? What was it? You know,there's kind of the negotiation,
but there's, if you want them tocome, what are you willing to
do? And what are you going to doto make it most comfortable for
them? If you're asking them tocome into a situation where they
are going to be the only one oftheir background? Hmm,
Christie (32:44):
that Bob, it's an important one. Yeah, because I
do view whoever's existingcommunity it is, if it's your
family, if it's your friends, Ido view that person being
responsible to kind of be a sortof liaison or a protective
buffer, especially if there's aserious reason for discomfort,
(33:04):
where there has been a historyof microaggressions, or they are
the only person of color thatthey have, the person whose
people it is has theresponsibility to protect their
partner to check in on them.
Sometimes that involves, like,Hey, we're going to meet with a
new group of people. How aboutwe like, just check in or I'll
squeeze your hand a couple oftimes just to see how you're
feeling? And then we can take amoment just us to see how it's
(33:27):
going. There's anything you needfrom me? How do we have a little
signal so that those thingsaren't just on the person who's
uncomfortable to have to reachout when they might be like
especially vulnerable? Also,though, because you know, your
people best and so if you cansay that's not okay with me, or
like, what if we bring in mypartner like, how do we make
(33:49):
them feel comfortable? Maybe
Paula (33:53):
you have to kind of check your friends and family
beforehand and say, Look, we'renot gonna talk about this. We're
not going to talk about that.
Don't make jokes about this.
Yeah,
Christie (34:02):
sometimes that is possible in beforehand and in
the cases where sometimesbringing a new person around
reveals different parts of yourfamily or your friends or
unfortunately that does happenwhere your friend makes an off
comment to your new partner andunderstandably they have a
reaction to it but I would saythen, another part is some
(34:22):
version of like, maybe we callit aftercare or debriefing after
we see the family or this newgroup of friends how was that
like for you? What did you feelwhen they this person said this
like when they got when Inoticed you had to face oral
expression or reaction to thiswhat was really happening for
you, but letting that fullyprocess letting your partner
(34:43):
fully say what happened and justbeing open and curious to it.
And if you of course, if younotice defensiveness about your
own friends or family, name it,but let it be part of the open
conversation of hey, I feel alittle defensive when you say
that about my friend, but Irecognize that that That's
probably really true about howyou felt with them. So that
(35:04):
there could be a common languagearound what you might need to do
next time.
Paula (35:09):
Okay. Well, you mentioned microaggressions a couple of
times. And that kind of takes usinto managing challenges, right?
Because there is there couldlikely be micro ago some some
form of challenges, whether it'smicro aggressions, or maybe some
more overt situations orcomments. So can you speak to
(35:30):
and kind of guide couples on howto, you know how to manage those
situations? Hmm, I guess startwith microaggressions? What do
you?
Christie (35:39):
Yeah, so microaggressions? A lot of folks
come in and give
Paula (35:43):
an example. I think some people maybe are not clear on
what that is. What what whatwould you give us an example?
Let's say you imagine thiscouple in a certain situation?
What would a microaggression be?
Hmm. So
Christie (35:58):
yeah, so an example might be? Well, microaggressions
are basically kind of everydayinteractions, where there's a
kind of subtext to a comment,such as, oh, you speak really
good English, or you carryyourself so well, or I'm so
impressed by you. So articulate,yes, they're so articulate what
(36:20):
school you went to, or you're sobeautiful. And I wouldn't expect
it or whatever, even if it feelslike a compliment on the
surface, your exact experience?
Yeah, very exotic. It's yes,you're experienced is something
different. You're, you're kindof it's a signal that they're
viewing you as something other.
And there can be manystereotypes that come out
throughout it. So I've hadindividuals come in for
(36:44):
processing things in therapy,when maybe, if they're a person
of color, and they go to theirfamily, their their partner, who
might, in this case, be white.
And then they go to see theirpartner's family for the
holidays. And they get commentslike, which are you from North
or South Korea? Or, Oh, I heardthis thing about North Korea,
(37:07):
like, would you know about this,there might also be things if
you're like, the only blackperson in the room with your
partner's white family, there'sthings about how unsafe cities
can be, or there's judgementabout how other people live
their lives or spend theirmoney. Or even just in like, the
subtle ways of, Oh, I wonderwhat your kids are going to look
(37:32):
like, you know, and there's afeeling if that comes in, where
there's like, why do you wonderthat are what are you expecting,
they're going to look like iftheir skin color is going to
look different? If there havehave going to have features that
look like my family versus theother persons
Paula (37:47):
in that situation? So those things come up yet, do
you? How do you advise couplesto navigate that? So yes, you
are the Korean person in your,at your white partners family as
an example. And something issaid how, how would you advise
(38:09):
couples to navigate that, um,
Christie (38:11):
it's hard when will so in some cases, the partner, the
white partner might not bethere. And the comments are made
when the person of color or thepartner who's coming into the
family is hearing this commentor hearing this conversation on
their own. So if you're on yourown, try to get a second with
(38:33):
your partner and step away sothat you get a little bit of a
breathing room. And, and whetherthat happens of the debrief of
telling your partner whathappened, whether that takes
place in the moment, or at theend of the day, or even a week
later, when you feel safe enoughto talk about it, letting your
partner know that that was real,so that if there isn't some
(38:56):
there isn't a miss that yourpartner actually gets a chance
to know that that happened. Butthen there is a lot of work that
I view get is really like thepartner whose family it is is
responsible for, and protectingtheir partner who they brought
into the family. So that mightlook like processing what the
person of color might actuallyneed. So let it be let it be led
(39:21):
by the person who experiencedthe microaggression as opposed
to the person whose family it isfirst in terms of determining
what the needs are. Some peoplemight say I don't want you to
say anything. Let's just keep itquiet for now. I don't want to
think that they said this thingto me. So let's just wait. Some
people might say I need you totell them to apologize. I'm not
(39:44):
going to see them until theyapologize for this thing or I
don't feel comfortable goingover to their home until we
actually recognize whathappened. And following what the
whatever the need is thenpartner whose family gets this
incredible honor to protectthird partner by talking with
their family of, yeah, there aresome things that came out last
(40:04):
time we all got together. Andusually I hope that it can be
helpful if they have thatconversation with their partner
with their family on their own,so that it's not a partner
doesn't
Paula (40:15):
have to be there and be uncomfortable. Yes, further and
honorable, right
Christie (40:20):
to kind of check the temperature like, is my family
open to it? Are they superapologetic? Did they have no
idea or do they not care at all,and they just assume that you
know, nothing serious happened,then an apology can be really
important, like just talkingabout what actually happened,
recognizing it, saying itexplicitly, when I said this
(40:41):
thing to you, I realized that itwas really hurtful and wanting
to find a way to be inrelationship. And I think that's
one of the key points is like,sometimes when we're trying to
set boundaries with our family,even as uncomfortable as it is,
it feels like it's like apunishment, or people are scared
to do it, because they've neverset a boundary with their
family. So clearly, but it'sactually inviting your family to
(41:05):
be in relationship to you andyour partnership in a way that
you feel most comfortable orwhat have actually helped you
feel most close to them. And soyou're giving them an idea of
like, we don't want to saycomments like that, because it
actually might not feel like abig deal on the surface. But
it's important to not only mypartner, but it's important to
(41:26):
me, so whoever's family it is,you also bring yourself into it.
So it's not just putting yourpartner on the spot, and
suggesting that they're changingeverything. You know, it's just
like that it hurt me when I sawmy partner feel this way,
because of my family. And so howdo we actually feel safer, all
together? Practically, thatmight look like, hey, we decided
(41:46):
as a couple together, but we'renot going to be there for this
part of Christmas, or this partof New Year's where you will
usually gather, but we're goingto come for one hour for dinner,
and then we're going to head outafter that, you know, so what
does that practically mean? Ifthere are this continuous
tension, or they're continuous,like risks of microaggressions.
(42:09):
One
Paula (42:10):
other kind of thing that can happen where, you know,
inter cultural partners need tobe aware is, is some of the
bigger issues in society, we'vegone through in the past several
years, the Black Lives Mattermovement and violence against
black people, but at the handsof the police, or the anti Asian
(42:32):
hate around the time of thepandemic, and subsequently, and
these big things can have, theymay have happened, things may
have happened away from your ownhome or your own direct
experience. But they can have abig effect on you. And so can
you speak to like how couplescan navigate some of those
(42:55):
issues that are larger in scope?
And maybe they're bigger in someways, because they're happening
in society, but they're moredistant? Because they didn't
happen in the actual home orfamily? Yeah, I
Christie (43:08):
think a lot of the times with those, these larger
events, or long standinghistorical issues that come up,
sometimes the risk is that theconversation never happens, or
that partners feel a little bittoo nervous even get there with
their partner. But it's, I wouldsuggest starting off with like,
(43:32):
how do we articulate safety? Orhow do we make sure that we feel
emotionally safe to even speakto some sliver of what it
actually feels like to witnesssomeone who looks like you being
killed or being unsafe? In somecases, it's important to ask,
especially if you're the personwho might be a little bit more
detached from the event. So ifyou notice that your partner is
(43:56):
starting to get a little quiet,or they're reading the news, or
they're feeling more anxious, oranything like that, checking in
with your partner, specifically,not only just how are you but
hey, I saw this article, and I'mseeing what's happening and
what's happening on socialmedia. How are you actually
feeling about this? If it'ssomething that you might both be
impacted by? While everyone'skind of impacted by everything,
(44:22):
but if you feel a little bitmore detached, there might also
be some work to see. Okay, mypartner identifies as black for
example, and if if you don't,why, what might be some bit of a
gap between how you'reexperiencing this event versus
your partner? And notnecessarily what can you do for
(44:43):
them, but more around like, howdo you create space for them to
process what happened or exploretheir emotions with you in a
really safe way by justlistening to them? There's no
like reducing any obligation tosay something poignant,
brilliant, supportive, you justsay, Wow, I cannot believe that
(45:05):
you are thank you for sharingthis with me. I can't imagine
what it really must feel likefor you, can you tell me more
about this part, like, letyourself be curious and build
the comfort and the language, ifthere is any discomfort around
talking about like real thingsthat are taking place in the
larger culture of yourpartnership, too. If your
partner doesn't feel safe enoughto talk about these things with
(45:28):
you, then what is something youcan do on your end to help
create a little bit more safety?
Sometimes that might beexplicitly asking? Yeah,
Paula (45:35):
and going back to you know, we were talking about
potentially learning yourpartner's language, if your
partner is going throughsomething, and maybe they're not
at a point where they can reallytalk about it? What can you do
on your own, to learn more aboutit so that you can come to your
partner with kind of moreunderstanding more knowledge
(45:56):
about the issue? Yes, I think Iwould think that would be
appreciated. Kind of that youdid some of the work on your
own, as opposed to only lookingto me to explain to you why this
is a big deal, or why I'm soaffected by this.
Christie (46:13):
Right. Exactly. And, and along with that, being
curious about how your partner'sindividual experience might be
unique, or their their theiremotions might be a little bit
different than what you expect,even if you also have done your
own education and learning.
Paula (46:28):
That's a really good point. I'm glad you mentioned
that, because you can't go outand read something and that
assume and then assume, Oh, thisis how my partner feels? No,
you're just educating yourselfaround kind of context, and then
letting them tell you how theyactually feel how it affects
them directly. Right?
Christie (46:47):
This? Yeah, I've totally and it goes for people
who share an identity, you know,share similar cultural
background and still mightimpact you all very differently.
Paula (46:56):
Yes, yes, I'm glad you circle back to that. Well,
because the we want to leavepeople with some very specific
takeaways and kind of, you know,action steps that they can take.
So I guess the first thing we goback to is the social identity
wheel. And, you know, we'llprovide that wanting to make
sure that that we give people atool to have those
(47:17):
conversations, at least starthaving the conversation of how
each person experiences cultureand identity, is there anything
else that you might recommendthat couples do to kind of move
this conversation forward,
Christie (47:32):
I can go back to a fundamental skill that is often
talked about in couples therapy.
But if we, let's assume that weare on the same team, that
whatever arguments or whateverdifferences we get into, we
might be kind of positioningourselves on the same side
together, looking at this issue.
(47:54):
And so if you end but that alsoincludes, like this piece of
empathy, that there's noexpectation that you know,
exactly what your family whatyour partner feels, or what
their experiences like how theirfamily's culture came up. But
there's the hope that you arecurious, and that you are open
(48:15):
and are actively listening. Andif that, practically, if you can
simply say, Okay, what I'mhearing from you is this and you
use the words that your partnerused for you, then you have a
much greater chance of reducingmiscommunications, reducing
assumptions. And if anything,the question, can you tell me
(48:38):
more about blank? Can you tellme more about anything that your
partner has said previously, youdon't have to think of a magic
question. That's all it is. Youjust want to write just a
student of your partner as theirstudent of you. And you'll
continue to build your cultureas long as curiosity. And a lot
of empathy is part of theconversation like frequent
(48:58):
consistent conversations. Don'tlet it be one thing that one
thing you talk about once a yearand feel nervous about,
Paula (49:05):
no, this is your conversation. This is gonna be a
conversation over your lifetogether. Because, yeah, it's
gonna come up again and again,either through family through
societal events, or through thegrowth of your relationship. So
great, Christy, thank you somuch for joining us today. It
was good to have yourperspective, since you
(49:26):
specialize in this area. Andbecause as I said, this is a
growing, there's a growingnumber of couples that are in
inter answer me or eight is whatthe Pew Research calls the
intermediary couples so eitherto have a different cultural or
ethnic identity. So this hasbeen very helpful. Thank you so
much, Paula. All right.
(49:56):
To learn more about Christy Kim,you can visit her purse on a
website, as see Kim therapy.comYou can also follow all the work
she's doing with bridges bylistening to the Beyond the
couch podcast, going to bridgesmental health.com or following
bridges on Instagram at Bridgesmental health. Check the show
(50:19):
notes for all this informationthanks for joining us this week.
If you like what you hear,subscribe to practically marry
wherever you get your podcast.
(50:39):
You can also follow the show onInstagram at get practically
married and send us a DM if youand your partner want to come on
the show and talk to one of ourexperts. Please take a moment to
leave us a review and hopefullya five star rating. But the best
way to support the show would beto tell someone about it. Tell
your friends, your family, yourwedding vendors and even your
(51:03):
therapist. But most of all,share it with your partner.
That's all for now. Have a goodone.
Even if you and your partner share the same cultural
(00:02):
background, or you don'tstrongly identify with your
background, there's still a lotto gain from this episode.
Because we are shaped byidentity in various ways,
whether it's gender, race, oreven the identity and customs of
our own family. And that'ssomething to talk about when
you're planning a futuretogether. All right, let's get
(00:24):
into it.
Welcome to practically married,the podcast created to help
dating engaged and newly marriedcouples prepare for healthy long
(00:48):
term committed relationships.
I'm Paula Holt. And on thisshow, I'm gonna bring you
conversations with experts whowill give you tools to take your
relationship to the next level.
Although many of our guests willbe therapists, please keep in
mind that practically married isfor educational purposes only,
(01:08):
and is not a substitute fortherapy with a licensed
professional. Hi, thanks forjoining me. Today I want to jump
right into our conversationabout navigating culture and
identity in the context ofromantic relationships. My guest
is Christy Kim, a licensedmental health counselor, and one
(01:30):
of the hosts of the podcastbeyond the couch, which explores
the intersection of AsianPacific Islander and South Asian
American identity and mentalhealth. Chrissy also helps these
communities seek and navigatemental health care as a co
founder of bridges, a hub ofresources that includes a
(01:50):
directory of culturallyresponsive therapists. So let's
meet Christie Kim. Hi, Christy,welcome to the practically
married podcast.
Christie (02:02):
Hi, Paula. Thanks for having me. I'm very excited to
chat with you.
Paula (02:05):
Well, I am excited to have you here to discuss a topic
that is really growing inimportance because of the number
of couples that this impacts andthat is the issue of culture.
But before we get to that, Iwant to say that I hear on your
podcast that you kind of havealways known you wanted to be a
therapist. Oh, yes.
Christie (02:28):
I wanted to and fantasized about the career
since I was a kid. And thenslowly, I think just each step
at a time I've found myself hereactually.
Paula (02:38):
I think that's that's pretty rare. I don't you know,
you don't hear that too much. Soyou, maybe you have a call or
calling that came to you early?
Did you always know because youhave a specialty a special
interest in issues of identityand culture? Did you always know
that you wanted to kind of focuson that area? Was that something
you came to later?
Christie (02:59):
Um, actually, what I knew I wanted to focus on was
couples work. And then theidentity stuff came. As I moved
through grad school, it became amore fundamental part of the
curriculum, and also just awider national discussion around
race, politics, social identity,like where we find ourselves and
(03:19):
what that means about ourexperience. So that's kind of
then melded into an like afundamental part of how I do
work with couples andindividuals. But yeah, my the
couple's work has always been atthe heart for me.
Paula (03:32):
Yeah. And since we are going to be talking about issues
of identity and culture, wouldyou mind sharing how you
identify?
Christie (03:39):
Yes, I am a Korean American second generation sis
woman. And, yeah, those might bethe most read salient or
resonant for today. But is thereanything else? I
Paula (03:56):
can? No, no, no, that covers it. And I am a black
woman, African American. Sis,what else? Did you say? I want
to make sure I cover all theones under one gender. Yes. So
and I think that's, you know,important for people to know,
because it's relevant to ourexperiences. And kind of how we
(04:20):
might see this topic. Just justfor people to have a sense of,
of who we are. So, yes. And, youknow, part of the reason we
identify ourselves is because inany situation, you're dealing
with a couple, each person hasto reflect on their perspective
(04:42):
of identity, and culture. Ithink before you can really talk
about something with yourpartner in a meaningful way. It
helps to have a betterunderstanding on how you feel
about the topic. And so howwould you in thinking about
someone who was in the stage oftheir relationship seriously
(05:02):
dating, engaged or maybe evennewly married? How would you
recommend that they go aboutstarting these conversations and
starting the issue of selfexploration first?
Christie (05:14):
Yes, I totally agree with you, Paula, and the value
of understanding how we findourselves first as individuals.
And of course, I imagine ifpeople are at that point of of
their partnership, they havenoticed differences, or maybe
notice similarities in theirculture, how they were raised,
or how they kind of view, livinglife building life together. But
(05:36):
I would start with this socialidentity wheel, which is a
really helpful tool and kind ofmapping out where individuals
lie within the larger scheme ofsociety, culture being in the US
specifically, there's a lot ofcultural nuances about being
here versus other countries, butalso, then what it looks like as
we move closer to the individualfrom the family of origin to
(06:00):
racial ethnic identities. And sothe social identity will start
with a few things, maybe at thecore, and some kind of internal
ways of identifying like yourage, sexual orientation,
identity, ethnicity, race,gender, and then abilities. And
then they're more broad, or whatwe might suggest is like
(06:23):
external facing external factorsof social identity, from marital
status, from what kind of careerjob you have social class,
things like that. And we mightuse this, we should provide the
wheel as a reference, yes,
Paula (06:41):
we'll definitely provide the wheel. Okay,
Christie (06:43):
great. Yeah. So what I would suggest is, is whether it
becomes an individualreflection, or it's something
that you and your partner, folksin their partner might process
together as like, what parts ofthe wheel do I feel most
relevant, or as most salient doI think about most often, and
(07:03):
what parts might I think aboutleast often, because it helps
kind of give us a little bit ofcontext for where one person one
person's experience isinfluenced by all of these
different pieces of culture. Andallows there to be some common
language there,
Paula (07:21):
I want to emphasize, even if you are of the same cultural
background, these areconversations to have because
everyone doesn't experienceculture in the same way. And so
from the beginning, if you're acouple of us have the same
background, you might not thinkthis episode is for you. But I
promise you it is because theseare conversations that you can
(07:43):
still benefit from because theseare issues around identity as
well. But um, but one of thethings is to reflect on what
role did culture play in yourupbringing? Because it's not
just about kind of where you arenow. But what are the
experiences you've had to shapeyou into the person you are and
the person you you are bringingcoming into the relationship?
(08:05):
Can you speak to that a littlebit kind of the upbringing part?
Christie (08:08):
Yeah, I think that intimate partnerships is one of
those gifts because it helpsilluminate where we might have
illuminate wet might have feltautomatic or almost like the
water we were swimming in mostof our lives because when we
build start building a life withsomeone then all of the little
differences or idiosyncrasiesthat felt so normal for us might
(08:30):
feel very new or strange foryour partner. And so noticing
even How do you feel around likecelebrations are birthdays a big
deal or are holidays a big dealwhere everyone gathers or is
there meaning around holidaysthat you celebrate that your
partner might even if you comefrom a similar background, some
(08:50):
other pieces that often comes upto in my work with couples is
their generation status. So, ifthey are first generation versus
second generation, there mightbe a lot of differences and how
you expect to play out factorsof your parts of your culture in
your family life
Paula (09:09):
as an example of that.
Yes,
Christie (09:11):
so, one of the ones that that comes up often is kind
of this cultural idea of familyover everything or family first,
which might be common among alot of more collectivist
families or cultures, whichessentially means that kind of
valuing the group or the familyor the larger community over the
(09:33):
individual compared to the inmore individualist culture where
in the US we are veryemphasizing on the individual
independence do what you want.
So when there are differencesand whether family comes first,
that is a really, a lot of timespeople will agree on that idea
itself. But what thatpractically means is do our in
(09:53):
laws expect to visit howevermany times a year and then when
they visit Do they expect tostay at our home? Or do we
expect
Paula (10:04):
long do they expect to stay at home?
Christie (10:08):
much do they had much do we accommodate our lives?
When in laws visit? How much arewe expected to visit them? Or
family over everything mightalso look like? Monies is no, no
issue when we're talking aboutfamily?
Paula (10:21):
I think the first generation second generation
piece is is particularlyrelevant for some people.
Christie (10:28):
Hmm, sure. Yeah.
There's different elements aboutaround it. Do you
Paula (10:33):
find with that? Are there tendencies for some people to or
I guess it varies by individual,but some people kind of holding
on more to their culture oforigin? And some people wanting
to be more, quote unquote,American? Do you see that clash
(10:53):
a lot in your work? Yeah,
Christie (10:55):
definitely. Because sometimes there is, this will
comes up with a lot of Asianfolks. And a lot of Latino
individuals, too, can be likethe family over everything kind
of aspect. That if a familymember or our parents call for
help, that we drop everything,and there's no question about
it, we are just there for them.
And some individuals might bepartnered with someone who feels
(11:19):
like no, my parents don't,aren't, they don't ask me for
that much help. Or if they doask for help, I feel full agency
to be able to say yes and nowhen I want to. And I don't want
to feel like we have to visitthe in laws every single month
or every other weekend. Andthose elements come in because
if you are more connected to thecollectivist idea or want to
(11:40):
spend feel more obligated tospending time with your family,
it might feel like a little bitof defensiveness of like, how
could you ask me not to do thisthing. This is how we've always
been, or this is what my parentshave always expected for me. And
they've sacrificed so much. Soof course, I'm going to do this
favor for them in return. Butthat could also impact how
partners feel between each otherof like, well, what's where are
(12:03):
we able to make our owndecisions as a team as opposed
to feeling like you're alwaysleaving off or going to your
parents, for example?
Paula (12:12):
Right? So I guess going back a little bit when we talk
about first reflecting on yourown experience around culture,
your own beliefs and values. Aswe're saying, maybe each partner
can have that conversation. Andwe're assuming these are people
who are in, you know, in aserious relationship, but you've
certainly had conversations. ButI think the key here is to
(12:35):
almost treat this relationshipas new new in the sense that
you're going into a new phase.
And so kind of pull back andstart from the beginning, have
those self reflections aroundculture and identity? And then I
guess the next piece, and wesay, have those reflections, not
only in terms of like the socialidentity wheel, but also your
experiences growing up? And howthat culture play out for you?
(12:59):
And then how is it a part ofyour identity today? And in your
values and in your practices?
Right? Yeah,
Christie (13:09):
I agree with like the approaching it as a new
conversation, because it allowsyou to be curious and open and
ask questions that the idea ofwhat do we do about this? Or
what do we do about thedifferences that can come much
later. But even just to starthaving those conversations often
and consistently, if there's anydiscomfort, those muscles will
(13:31):
get stronger, and the discomforthopefully will go away? or
lessen over the course of many
Paula (13:37):
years? Well, another thing it seems like it's
important for partners toreflect on individually and then
move into a conversation thatthey're having together is how
did I imagine my culture and myidentity to play out in my
relationship? And my marriage?
Did I expect to attend thesecertain cultural events by
(13:58):
myself? Or did I expect that mypartner will come with me?
Children? I mean, some couplesmay be some years away from
children. But what's the youknow, what's the image you had
in your mind about how yourchildren might be raised in
terms of your culturalbackground?
Christie (14:18):
Yeah, that's, that's a lovely place to start, because
some people might have had thissubconscious image of what their
future family would look like,or what their partnership would
look like. And sometimes, Inoticed that couples feel a
little bit, our partners feel alittle reticent to share what
they envisioned or feel like ofcourse, my partner is like on
(14:39):
board with this idea, even if ithasn't been explicitly spoken
about. So giving a picture or ascene to what you envision of
like our family coming over atthis time or celebrating
holidays, just us to whateverthat ends up looking like of
sharing this picture. So yourpartner not only has an idea of
what it looks like But maybe youstart to craft this image
(15:02):
together and start to share asimilar vision. Right?
Paula (15:05):
Well, that's a great segue into what I was going to
ask you next, which is, onceyou've had that personal
reflection, and you want tostart to share with your
partner, and have thatunderstanding of each other,
what's kind of the nextpractical step because this is
practically, practically marrypodcasts. So what are those next
practical steps in terms ofplanning a life with someone of
(15:29):
a different culture? Hmm.
Christie (15:32):
So one example I have is a couple where one spoke
Spanish as their first languageand was very connected to their
family. And the other was, like,grew up and grew up in the US.
And, but it was important to forthe for the first partner to
(15:54):
have their future children speakthe language that he was
comfortable with. And so part ofhow they knit it into their
family life overall, was thatthey would spend a couple of
weeks every year in the countrywhere he was from. And so that
allows the children to haveexposure to all of the cultural
(16:15):
influences, and also build thatconnection for themselves and
speaking the language at homeraising their children with two
languages. And that was a bigpart of tying in how they're
going to raise their family andthe culture of their family into
both partners, both parents.
Paula (16:33):
Now in that situation, did the partner speak Spanish or
any Spanish?
Christie (16:41):
The partner didn't speak Spanish. But that's also
another piece of like, if thereare other languages that are
spoken on either side of acouple of Couplehood of how
important is it that yourpartner learns the language that
either you grew up in or youspeak with your grandparents or
vice versa? Because there mightbe times when the whole family
(17:02):
is speaking Spanish or the wholefamily speaking Korean or
another language, and thenthere's a little bit of
isolation that the partner mightfeel. But even sometimes
learning a few phrases or likebeing curious about it,
sometimes I've seen partnerstake language classes so that
they can learn their partner'sfamily's language, feeling like
a really beautiful way to Yes,connects with your partners,
(17:26):
culture yourself. And so youhave a direct relationship where
you might have a directappreciation for all of the
beautiful things that come fromanother culture. I
Paula (17:34):
would think that would go a long way in terms of showing
your partner but also showingyour partner's family how much
you're committed to therelationship and the greater
family in general. Yes,absolutely. So okay, get those
language classes going. Can youspeak a little bit more about
(17:55):
some of the things so Okay, solanguage, we referenced this
briefly, holidays and sometraditions? What are some of the
other ways that couples shouldtalk about culture? You know, as
they're moving from the selfreflection to now? How is this
going to play out in our day today lives? What are some of the
ways some of the things thatshould be discussed and kind of
(18:17):
planned for? Yeah, I
Christie (18:19):
think another important one is, especially if
there's a multicultural couple.
So I've worked with a couplewhere when identified as black,
and when identified as white,and the black partner, it was
really important to them to livein a metropolitan area, or a
community that was quitediverse, where they wouldn't
(18:40):
feel like the only person ofcolor or in addition that their
future children would have a lotof friends who looked like them,
or a lot of diversity. Andaround the place where they were
raised,
Paula (18:53):
I can see where being in a diverse neighborhood and not
wanting to kind of always be theonly one will be important. Oh,
yes, yeah. So go ahead. I'msorry, you were saying is living
in the neighborhood, rightthere, that's housing choosing
your neighborhood. That's one Ihadn't thought about.
Christie (19:12):
It adds a new layer, because the partner who
identifies as white does careabout being by their family, and
their family lives in a moreremote area where there's less
diversity there. So there'snaturally two different poles
there and it might feel inconflict. But there might be an
importance around both of thepartners having enough safety to
(19:33):
talk about why they really valuethe thing that they're pulling
for. So and especially there's aconsideration for not only the
being around other diversepeople, but how that impacts the
psychological safety or how safeyou feel. And when the physical
safety, especially the physicalsafety as well how you feel in
(19:54):
your home, your neighborhood.
Going to the grocery store is animportant piece that your
partner might not experience thesame thing, they might be of a
different gender different race,they don't actually feel what it
feels like for you to move intothose spaces. But the hope is
that you can share it in a waythat invites your partner in to
understand what it actuallyfeels like for you. As opposed
(20:15):
to seeing just that you want tolive in a diverse neighborhood
or just that you want to live byyour parents. So it's like, why
is that important? What's thevalue of being around your
parents or the value of feelinglike you're in a space with a
lot of people who look like you?
It looks
Paula (20:32):
on my so. So that's, you know, where you live. What else
what other considerations kindof on that day to day practical
level,
Christie (20:40):
on the day to day practical level, I think a lot
of it comes down to language andwords. So not necessarily
speaking other languages, but wemight have implicit ideas about
something we say, and think thatit's not a big deal. But the way
that our partner might hear itcould be connected to other past
wounds, other relationships,other conversations, even that
(21:02):
they've been in. And so the keyof being clear about what you're
saying, but also being clearabout what you hear from your
partner, so at least you'respeaking the same emotional
language, you understand whatthe feelings actually mean, as
opposed to this general sense ofyou don't understand me, you
know, or it might feel to me andmy family, like being sarcastic
(21:26):
and making jokes is how weinteract. But then if I bring in
a partner into it, or if someonewho's not used to it starts to
feel a little defensive, orthey're confused why you're
making all of these jokes, orbeing playful or something like
that. There's even like theculture of the the home impacts
how you might be feeling andclarifying, like, you know, that
(21:47):
felt a little off to me, isthere something else you meant
by that, or when you said this,I really didn't know what you
meant, or I felt a littledefensive, breaking down all of
those potentialmiscommunications so that as
you're building the language ofthe culture of your home
together, there's more alignmentand understanding and empathy,
as opposed to just assuming thatour partner should get us if the
(22:10):
if we're this committed to themalready.
Paula (22:12):
All right. Well, that's true in in all couples, right?
Don't Don't assume that, youknow, some of the other things I
think about, you know, kind ofsharing a life and sharing a
home together, or things likefood, even if you are of a
culture where you have differentfood, preferences, or
(22:33):
traditions, that can besomething to get used to. And
Christie (22:37):
in a lot of families, food is either what is sometimes
the expression of love, youknow, that's maybe the only
experience of love you got fromyour parents. Or it was always
like the olive branch use whenthere's conflict, or that's
where everyone gathers tocelebrate around food. And if
that's how you grew up, or howyou are not that you can impact
(22:59):
what you might assume. You wantto celebrate or assume how food
is part of your life together.
Paula (23:04):
And I know you you mentioned money before, that's
another day to day kind ofpractical thing.
Christie (23:10):
Yeah, that's something especially for For those
planning a wedding can come in,because I worked with a couple
where one partner kind ofassumed and was really
comfortable with debt, andassumed that weddings included a
lot of debt. And the partnerthat they were with, did not
have that perspective at all.
They prefer to not have debtwould rather use savings or
(23:30):
their family had been saving forthe occasion for many, many
years. And so that becomes likeanother conflicting point of, of
course, we're going to have debtwhere the wedding versus how
dare we incur more debt?
Vacation? Yeah.
Paula (23:49):
Hey, just a quick break in this interview, to let you
know about one of the freeresources available at
practically married dotnet.
Download our 10 Questionschecklist. So you and your
partner can answer questionsfrom each of the 10 practically
Mary's subjects, includingmoney, sex, in laws and more.
After you answer all thequestions, send me a DM and gay
(24:10):
practically married and let meknow how it went. Okay, back to
our conversation. Let's let'stransition into talking about
family and friends a little bitmore. Because going back to the
collectivist versusindividualist, that can be a big
issue and especially like I saywhen families come into the
(24:35):
home, so I think a lot of peoplehave this sense, especially if
you've kind of been raised inAmerican culture and kind of is
that's really a part of you.
That individual sense of this ismy home. I'll do whatever you
want me to do outside but in myhome like I should be able to
XYZ but for some people, theirfamily coming into their home
(25:00):
It's kind of like an open doorpolicy. Yeah. So
Christie (25:04):
people are dropping by all the time. Right? Is
Paula (25:07):
that Is that something that you see in terms of your
practice? Where your couples arestruggling, I guess over those
family boundaries? Oh,
Christie (25:15):
yes. Because it's well, sometimes the expectation
is that we are going to livevery close to my parents, or one
partner wants to live very closewithin like a 10 minute walk of
their parents, and they expectto see their family once a week,
and their partner should comewith them. And their partner
might feel like that's a lot. Imight see my family once a year.
(25:36):
And the idea of seeing your inlaws and feeling all of the
dynamics and even if even ifthey love each other, that it
can still feel like a huge gapbetween how each of them
expected to do that. And that'sanother thing that comes in even
with the expectations aroundlike aging parents or aging
elders in the family, how are weplanning to financially take
(25:57):
care of them physically offerthem care, go to medical
appointments with them? Or is itsomething that we would rather
hire like a home health aide tohelp them? All of those kind of
cultural impacts of like, what,how much do we honor the family?
How do we take care of ourelders versus kind of wood?
Having someone support them inthe home feel like a non starter
(26:21):
like that? It'd be so offensiveto even suggest it versus how
dare we not visit my familyevery other weekend? Well,
Paula (26:29):
can you give an example of like, how do you navigate
that? How do you help a couplenavigate that is like the
example you gave. So it's myexpectation that we're gonna
live 10 minutes away from myparents, and we're going to see
them every weekend. And it'syour expectation that we are not
going to see them every weekend,how I'm sure that has come up,
(26:50):
some version of that hasprobably come up a lot, because
you know, because of the natureof your work, not only just with
couples, but with couples withcultural differences. And so how
do you what are some, again,practical ways that couples can
negotiate and navigate thatissue?
Christie (27:07):
negotiates a great word, because I tend to kind of
facilitate this process of let'sstart with everyone putting
everything on the table,everything is an option at this
point. So this is important tome, because XYZ and each partner
adds on their piece of it. Andthen we let all of this just be
(27:28):
true looking at this proverbialtable together, because there's
a risk and saying no too early,and our risk of saying no to our
own need too early. So if wejust assume everything is open,
fair game, what does it feellike when we all sit together,
either two partners, or me andour therapist and a partner, and
(27:48):
look at each option together? Sohow would it feel if we spent
every weekend or lived 10minutes away? And so over the
course of considering everyoption, how does this feel? How
would it actually feel to goevery other weekend? And these
are my concerns, you might addon that? So here's what might
feel like, here's what I wouldreally value about it. And then
(28:10):
here are some concerns of whatit might feel like to do that.
And then we go through each partof it, so that the couple finds
their their eventual sort ofagreement over time together, as
opposed to feeling like eitherone has to make all of the
decision or all of thesacrifice.
Paula (28:27):
What are some of the negotiated solutions you've
seen?
Christie (28:30):
Mm hmm. Negotiated solutions is an instance
Paula (28:34):
like us. I want my partner to go to my parents
every weekend, we do Sundaydinner every weekend. I
remember. I mean, this wasn'tparticularly culturally
relevant, I don't think but youknow, maybe so. But I used to
have breakfast with my dad,every Sunday. And so if that if
(28:54):
your every Sunday kind ofperson, let's say and your
partner is like, Yeah, butfootball comes on on Sunday, or
whatever, whatever theirpractice might be. What are some
of the solutions, specificsolutions that you've seen?
Work? I'm curious.
Christie (29:09):
Yeah. So I would say it? Well, some practical
solutions I've seen is that,okay, instead of every weekend,
we go once a month, but thepartner who really wants to see
their family gets the option,they might go every weekend, but
the partner gets the option tosay, Okay, I'm happy to visit
your family once a month. And soon that time, I'll be there,
(29:29):
I'll be present. I'll be happyto be there. And then the other
weekends, when you go off onyour own, I'll totally support
you and we'll come back andcelebrate that we're back
together. Or there can be thisgeneral posture of I would
rather be able to opt in asopposed to feeling like a half
to opt out and go through thetension of saying, Oh, I can't
come this weekend or whatever itis. And that sets like kind of
(29:51):
level sets the expectations ofmy partner gets to choose when
they happily say yes, as opposedto when they have to resentfully
or pray. cheerfully say no. Thatcan, as long as and I would say
this as a general guideline isthe hope is to come to an
agreement where you both feellike you're winning. So
(30:13):
compromises and couples therapyoften feels like okay, what am I
having to sacrifice or bend? Butthe hope is actually shifting
more towards like, Where can weboth win and feel like it's
actually a win? And if we're notthere yet, if one person still
feels resentful, or still feelsobligated, we're not at the
agreement yet.
Paula (30:31):
Okay. And would you say that that's similar in dealing
with friend groups that thatneed to negotiate some type of
agreement around how often we'regoing to see particular groups
of friends? Oh, yeah.
Christie (30:48):
That also comes into the sort of like the community
around the partnership. Becausehow important are these friends
are? If I don't really jive withone group of the partners,
friends, then do I get theoption to say no. Or there might
be this like, explicit agreementthat I will you are always
(31:10):
invited. But you don't alwayshave to come. And if you come
once or twice the times likethis, my favorite friends are my
core group of people gettogether that feels meaningful
enough to me, but having theidea of like, what is the actual
threshold? How many times wouldyou really love for me to be
there? versus feeling thistension? When they say no, on
(31:31):
occasion, like just being clearon the expectations there?
Paula (31:34):
Okay, so it's like, come when it's my friend's special
birthday celebration, but whenit's just regular brunch? You
don't? You don't have to haveExactly, yes. Okay. And so, I
think about like the friendgroup, I mean, for some people,
their friend group is likefamily, especially if their
family is far away. Andsometimes if you are of a
(31:57):
different culture than yourpartner, you may have family
that lives in another country.
And so your kind of friend groupbecomes that surrogate family.
But I can see where there's notonly the partners, who feel like
maybe uncomfortable coming. ButI guess what's your
responsibility in trying to makeit more comfortable for them to
come?
Christie (32:19):
Mm hmm. Yeah, in general, and that applies
Paula (32:23):
to family and friends.
Right? What was it? You know,there's kind of the negotiation,
but there's, if you want them tocome, what are you willing to
do? And what are you going to doto make it most comfortable for
them? If you're asking them tocome into a situation where they
are going to be the only one oftheir background? Hmm,
Christie (32:44):
that Bob, it's an important one. Yeah, because I
do view whoever's existingcommunity it is, if it's your
family, if it's your friends, Ido view that person being
responsible to kind of be a sortof liaison or a protective
buffer, especially if there's aserious reason for discomfort,
(33:04):
where there has been a historyof microaggressions, or they are
the only person of color thatthey have, the person whose
people it is has theresponsibility to protect their
partner to check in on them.
Sometimes that involves, like,Hey, we're going to meet with a
new group of people. How aboutwe like, just check in or I'll
squeeze your hand a couple oftimes just to see how you're
feeling? And then we can take amoment just us to see how it's
(33:27):
going. There's anything you needfrom me? How do we have a little
signal so that those thingsaren't just on the person who's
uncomfortable to have to reachout when they might be like
especially vulnerable? Also,though, because you know, your
people best and so if you cansay that's not okay with me, or
like, what if we bring in mypartner like, how do we make
(33:49):
them feel comfortable? Maybe
Paula (33:53):
you have to kind of check your friends and family
beforehand and say, Look, we'renot gonna talk about this. We're
not going to talk about that.
Don't make jokes about this.
Yeah,
Christie (34:02):
sometimes that is possible in beforehand and in
the cases where sometimesbringing a new person around
reveals different parts of yourfamily or your friends or
unfortunately that does happenwhere your friend makes an off
comment to your new partner andunderstandably they have a
reaction to it but I would saythen, another part is some
(34:22):
version of like, maybe we callit aftercare or debriefing after
we see the family or this newgroup of friends how was that
like for you? What did you feelwhen they this person said this
like when they got when Inoticed you had to face oral
expression or reaction to thiswhat was really happening for
you, but letting that fullyprocess letting your partner
(34:43):
fully say what happened and justbeing open and curious to it.
And if you of course, if younotice defensiveness about your
own friends or family, name it,but let it be part of the open
conversation of hey, I feel alittle defensive when you say
that about my friend, but Irecognize that that That's
probably really true about howyou felt with them. So that
(35:04):
there could be a common languagearound what you might need to do
next time.
Paula (35:09):
Okay. Well, you mentioned microaggressions a couple of
times. And that kind of takes usinto managing challenges, right?
Because there is there couldlikely be micro ago some some
form of challenges, whether it'smicro aggressions, or maybe some
more overt situations orcomments. So can you speak to
(35:30):
and kind of guide couples on howto, you know how to manage those
situations? Hmm, I guess startwith microaggressions? What do
you?
Christie (35:39):
Yeah, so microaggressions? A lot of folks
come in and give
Paula (35:43):
an example. I think some people maybe are not clear on
what that is. What what whatwould you give us an example?
Let's say you imagine thiscouple in a certain situation?
What would a microaggression be?
Hmm. So
Christie (35:58):
yeah, so an example might be? Well, microaggressions
are basically kind of everydayinteractions, where there's a
kind of subtext to a comment,such as, oh, you speak really
good English, or you carryyourself so well, or I'm so
impressed by you. So articulate,yes, they're so articulate what
(36:20):
school you went to, or you're sobeautiful. And I wouldn't expect
it or whatever, even if it feelslike a compliment on the
surface, your exact experience?
Yeah, very exotic. It's yes,you're experienced is something
different. You're, you're kindof it's a signal that they're
viewing you as something other.
And there can be manystereotypes that come out
throughout it. So I've hadindividuals come in for
(36:44):
processing things in therapy,when maybe, if they're a person
of color, and they go to theirfamily, their their partner, who
might, in this case, be white.
And then they go to see theirpartner's family for the
holidays. And they get commentslike, which are you from North
or South Korea? Or, Oh, I heardthis thing about North Korea,
(37:07):
like, would you know about this,there might also be things if
you're like, the only blackperson in the room with your
partner's white family, there'sthings about how unsafe cities
can be, or there's judgementabout how other people live
their lives or spend theirmoney. Or even just in like, the
subtle ways of, Oh, I wonderwhat your kids are going to look
(37:32):
like, you know, and there's afeeling if that comes in, where
there's like, why do you wonderthat are what are you expecting,
they're going to look like iftheir skin color is going to
look different? If there havehave going to have features that
look like my family versus theother persons
Paula (37:47):
in that situation? So those things come up yet, do
you? How do you advise couplesto navigate that? So yes, you
are the Korean person in your,at your white partners family as
an example. And something issaid how, how would you advise
(38:09):
couples to navigate that, um,
Christie (38:11):
it's hard when will so in some cases, the partner, the
white partner might not bethere. And the comments are made
when the person of color or thepartner who's coming into the
family is hearing this commentor hearing this conversation on
their own. So if you're on yourown, try to get a second with
(38:33):
your partner and step away sothat you get a little bit of a
breathing room. And, and whetherthat happens of the debrief of
telling your partner whathappened, whether that takes
place in the moment, or at theend of the day, or even a week
later, when you feel safe enoughto talk about it, letting your
partner know that that was real,so that if there isn't some
(38:56):
there isn't a miss that yourpartner actually gets a chance
to know that that happened. Butthen there is a lot of work that
I view get is really like thepartner whose family it is is
responsible for, and protectingtheir partner who they brought
into the family. So that mightlook like processing what the
person of color might actuallyneed. So let it be let it be led
(39:21):
by the person who experiencedthe microaggression as opposed
to the person whose family it isfirst in terms of determining
what the needs are. Some peoplemight say I don't want you to
say anything. Let's just keep itquiet for now. I don't want to
think that they said this thingto me. So let's just wait. Some
people might say I need you totell them to apologize. I'm not
(39:44):
going to see them until theyapologize for this thing or I
don't feel comfortable goingover to their home until we
actually recognize whathappened. And following what the
whatever the need is thenpartner whose family gets this
incredible honor to protectthird partner by talking with
their family of, yeah, there aresome things that came out last
(40:04):
time we all got together. Andusually I hope that it can be
helpful if they have thatconversation with their partner
with their family on their own,so that it's not a partner
doesn't
Paula (40:15):
have to be there and be uncomfortable. Yes, further and
honorable, right
Christie (40:20):
to kind of check the temperature like, is my family
open to it? Are they superapologetic? Did they have no
idea or do they not care at all,and they just assume that you
know, nothing serious happened,then an apology can be really
important, like just talkingabout what actually happened,
recognizing it, saying itexplicitly, when I said this
(40:41):
thing to you, I realized that itwas really hurtful and wanting
to find a way to be inrelationship. And I think that's
one of the key points is like,sometimes when we're trying to
set boundaries with our family,even as uncomfortable as it is,
it feels like it's like apunishment, or people are scared
to do it, because they've neverset a boundary with their
family. So clearly, but it'sactually inviting your family to
(41:05):
be in relationship to you andyour partnership in a way that
you feel most comfortable orwhat have actually helped you
feel most close to them. And soyou're giving them an idea of
like, we don't want to saycomments like that, because it
actually might not feel like abig deal on the surface. But
it's important to not only mypartner, but it's important to
(41:26):
me, so whoever's family it is,you also bring yourself into it.
So it's not just putting yourpartner on the spot, and
suggesting that they're changingeverything. You know, it's just
like that it hurt me when I sawmy partner feel this way,
because of my family. And so howdo we actually feel safer, all
together? Practically, thatmight look like, hey, we decided
(41:46):
as a couple together, but we'renot going to be there for this
part of Christmas, or this partof New Year's where you will
usually gather, but we're goingto come for one hour for dinner,
and then we're going to head outafter that, you know, so what
does that practically mean? Ifthere are this continuous
tension, or they're continuous,like risks of microaggressions.
(42:09):
One
Paula (42:10):
other kind of thing that can happen where, you know,
inter cultural partners need tobe aware is, is some of the
bigger issues in society, we'vegone through in the past several
years, the Black Lives Mattermovement and violence against
black people, but at the handsof the police, or the anti Asian
(42:32):
hate around the time of thepandemic, and subsequently, and
these big things can have, theymay have happened, things may
have happened away from your ownhome or your own direct
experience. But they can have abig effect on you. And so can
you speak to like how couplescan navigate some of those
(42:55):
issues that are larger in scope?
And maybe they're bigger in someways, because they're happening
in society, but they're moredistant? Because they didn't
happen in the actual home orfamily? Yeah, I
Christie (43:08):
think a lot of the times with those, these larger
events, or long standinghistorical issues that come up,
sometimes the risk is that theconversation never happens, or
that partners feel a little bittoo nervous even get there with
their partner. But it's, I wouldsuggest starting off with like,
(43:32):
how do we articulate safety? Orhow do we make sure that we feel
emotionally safe to even speakto some sliver of what it
actually feels like to witnesssomeone who looks like you being
killed or being unsafe? In somecases, it's important to ask,
especially if you're the personwho might be a little bit more
detached from the event. So ifyou notice that your partner is
(43:56):
starting to get a little quiet,or they're reading the news, or
they're feeling more anxious, oranything like that, checking in
with your partner, specifically,not only just how are you but
hey, I saw this article, and I'mseeing what's happening and
what's happening on socialmedia. How are you actually
feeling about this? If it'ssomething that you might both be
impacted by? While everyone'skind of impacted by everything,
(44:22):
but if you feel a little bitmore detached, there might also
be some work to see. Okay, mypartner identifies as black for
example, and if if you don't,why, what might be some bit of a
gap between how you'reexperiencing this event versus
your partner? And notnecessarily what can you do for
(44:43):
them, but more around like, howdo you create space for them to
process what happened or exploretheir emotions with you in a
really safe way by justlistening to them? There's no
like reducing any obligation tosay something poignant,
brilliant, supportive, you justsay, Wow, I cannot believe that
(45:05):
you are thank you for sharingthis with me. I can't imagine
what it really must feel likefor you, can you tell me more
about this part, like, letyourself be curious and build
the comfort and the language, ifthere is any discomfort around
talking about like real thingsthat are taking place in the
larger culture of yourpartnership, too. If your
partner doesn't feel safe enoughto talk about these things with
(45:28):
you, then what is something youcan do on your end to help
create a little bit more safety?
Sometimes that might beexplicitly asking? Yeah,
Paula (45:35):
and going back to you know, we were talking about
potentially learning yourpartner's language, if your
partner is going throughsomething, and maybe they're not
at a point where they can reallytalk about it? What can you do
on your own, to learn more aboutit so that you can come to your
partner with kind of moreunderstanding more knowledge
(45:56):
about the issue? Yes, I think Iwould think that would be
appreciated. Kind of that youdid some of the work on your
own, as opposed to only lookingto me to explain to you why this
is a big deal, or why I'm soaffected by this.
Christie (46:13):
Right. Exactly. And, and along with that, being
curious about how your partner'sindividual experience might be
unique, or their their theiremotions might be a little bit
different than what you expect,even if you also have done your
own education and learning.
Paula (46:28):
That's a really good point. I'm glad you mentioned
that, because you can't go outand read something and that
assume and then assume, Oh, thisis how my partner feels? No,
you're just educating yourselfaround kind of context, and then
letting them tell you how theyactually feel how it affects
them directly. Right?
Christie (46:47):
This? Yeah, I've totally and it goes for people
who share an identity, you know,share similar cultural
background and still mightimpact you all very differently.
Paula (46:56):
Yes, yes, I'm glad you circle back to that. Well,
because the we want to leavepeople with some very specific
takeaways and kind of, you know,action steps that they can take.
So I guess the first thing we goback to is the social identity
wheel. And, you know, we'llprovide that wanting to make
sure that that we give people atool to have those
(47:17):
conversations, at least starthaving the conversation of how
each person experiences cultureand identity, is there anything
else that you might recommendthat couples do to kind of move
this conversation forward,
Christie (47:32):
I can go back to a fundamental skill that is often
talked about in couples therapy.
But if we, let's assume that weare on the same team, that
whatever arguments or whateverdifferences we get into, we
might be kind of positioningourselves on the same side
together, looking at this issue.
(47:54):
And so if you end but that alsoincludes, like this piece of
empathy, that there's noexpectation that you know,
exactly what your family whatyour partner feels, or what
their experiences like how theirfamily's culture came up. But
there's the hope that you arecurious, and that you are open
(48:15):
and are actively listening. Andif that, practically, if you can
simply say, Okay, what I'mhearing from you is this and you
use the words that your partnerused for you, then you have a
much greater chance of reducingmiscommunications, reducing
assumptions. And if anything,the question, can you tell me
(48:38):
more about blank? Can you tellme more about anything that your
partner has said previously, youdon't have to think of a magic
question. That's all it is. Youjust want to write just a
student of your partner as theirstudent of you. And you'll
continue to build your cultureas long as curiosity. And a lot
of empathy is part of theconversation like frequent
(48:58):
consistent conversations. Don'tlet it be one thing that one
thing you talk about once a yearand feel nervous about,
Paula (49:05):
no, this is your conversation. This is gonna be a
conversation over your lifetogether. Because, yeah, it's
gonna come up again and again,either through family through
societal events, or through thegrowth of your relationship. So
great, Christy, thank you somuch for joining us today. It
was good to have yourperspective, since you
(49:26):
specialize in this area. Andbecause as I said, this is a
growing, there's a growingnumber of couples that are in
inter answer me or eight is whatthe Pew Research calls the
intermediary couples so eitherto have a different cultural or
ethnic identity. So this hasbeen very helpful. Thank you so
much, Paula. All right.
(49:56):
To learn more about Christy Kim,you can visit her purse on a
website, as see Kim therapy.comYou can also follow all the work
she's doing with bridges bylistening to the Beyond the
couch podcast, going to bridgesmental health.com or following
bridges on Instagram at Bridgesmental health. Check the show
(50:19):
notes for all this informationthanks for joining us this week.
If you like what you hear,subscribe to practically marry
wherever you get your podcast.
(50:39):
You can also follow the show onInstagram at get practically
married and send us a DM if youand your partner want to come on
the show and talk to one of ourexperts. Please take a moment to
leave us a review and hopefullya five star rating. But the best
way to support the show would beto tell someone about it. Tell
your friends, your family, yourwedding vendors and even your
(51:03):
therapist. But most of all,share it with your partner.
That's all for now. Have a goodone.
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