August 2, 2023 • 48 mins
Having a child is a joyous yet extremely stressful experience for most couples. So, this week I’m talking to Nikki Lively, LCSW (Licensed Clinical Social Worker) about some of the conversations couples should begin having years before starting a family.
We cover a wide range of topics including:
- Deciding if and when to have children
- Fertility issues
- Considerations for how many kids to have
- Gender & personality preferences
- Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT)
- Parental roles & expectations
- Division of labor
- Boundaries with extended family
- Culture, religion & community
- Childcare choices
Nikki Lively, LCSW is the Clinical Director of the Transitions to Parenthood Program at The Family Institute at Northwestern University. To learn more about Nikki's work, visit:
Additional resources:
- The Family Institute Resource Library
- The Fair Play Method
- Get Ready to Say "I Do" (the FREE Practically Married mini-course)
If you like what you heard...
- Follow Practically Married with Paula Holt on your favorite podcast platform to get every episode!
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Edited by Veronica Gruba
Music by Sage Holt-Hall
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Paula (00:00):
Why would you want to think about childcare when
(00:02):
you're one, two, or even threeyears away from having kids?
Well, that's just one of thethings you'll find out in
today's episode. All right,let's get into it.
(00:28):
Welcome to practically married,the podcast created to help
dating engaged and newly marriedcouples prepare for healthy long
term committed relationships.
I'm Paula Holt. And on thisshow, I'm going to bring you
conversations with experts whowill give you tools to take your
relationship to the next level.
(00:50):
Although many of our guests willbe therapists, please keep in
mind that practically married isfor educational purposes only,
and is not a substitute fortherapy with a licensed
professional. Hi, and welcome tothe show. Today we're talking
about how to prepare for havingkids. As I mentioned, it may
(01:11):
seem early to get into thistopic. But we're not talking
about baby proofing or sleeptraining or anything like that.
We're talking about theconversations, you can start
having now to be better preparedwhen you decide to have kids.
And we've got just the rightperson to talk about this,
because she's the ClinicalDirector of the transitions to
(01:32):
parenthood program at the FamilyInstitute at Northwestern
University. Nikki lively is aclinical social worker who
specializes in maternal mentalhealth. In addition to her work
with people making thetransition to becoming parents,
Nikki uses a method of therapycalled Emotionally Focused
Therapy, and her work withcouples, which is something
(01:55):
she'll explain in ourconversation. All right, let's
welcome Nikki lively to theshow. Hi, Nikki, welcome to
practically married.
Nikki (02:06):
I thanks for having me.
Paula (02:07):
Oh, thank you for being here. I am excited to have you.
Because although a lot oftherapists can talk to couples
about preparing to have kids,this is your specialty. And so I
want to you I have my eye on youfor a while because I wanted you
to talk about this subject andreally get into how we can help
(02:30):
couples be better prepared whenthey decide to have kids and
some couples may be thinkingright now, hey, this is, you
know, a year, two years, threeyears down the line for us? Why
should we be talking about thisnow? And so I will ask you why
should we be talking about this?
Now, if it's a few years away?
Nikki (02:48):
I think that it actually it can be hard for a couple of
us to talk about something inadvance. When things are going
well. It is hard to think aboutwhat would it be like if we
encountered an obstacle that itgets hard to know what things
you might even disagree about?
How will we know that we're notseeing something eye to eye? And
(03:09):
how will we make space toactually sit and really talk
about something. And for as longas we need to? It can be helpful
with a lot of different things.
But certainly with havingchildren, people need more time
(03:29):
to really figure things out whenthey disagree, then they might
actually think that the prep isgetting ready for potential
moments of like, oh, that's whatyou think about that? Oh, that's
what I think you know.
Paula (03:43):
And even if you agree on a lot of things, there's some
advanced work that you can do,or just some things that you can
do to make the transition alittle smoother, a little
smoother. So well, can you sharewith us how you work with
couples? I'm curious about that.
And in in making that transitionto parenthood,
Nikki (04:04):
when people come to couples therapy, you know, early
on, and part of what they'reanticipating is that they will
start their family. I try towork on supporting people again,
to have some sense of how do Ideal with conflict when I have
it with someone I really careabout really identifying what is
(04:28):
our pattern, for example,there's often a pairing I don't
know why but somehow, oftenthere's a pairing of one person
is more conflict avoidant, andone person really wants to talk
until things feel better. Andthose two styles can cause some
strife, some stress, also one ofthe key things that it can start
(04:52):
to come up before children butit gets intensified once there
are children is division oflabor, so to speak. in the
household, this ability to trusteach other, to follow through on
things to trust that if somebodysays, I'm going to take care of
it, that they are going to takecare of whatever that is, it's
(05:15):
related to trust to sexualinterest, maintaining feelings
of liking and loving yourpartner, respect and trust are
so tied to these daily, like theintersection of, of these things
in the domestic sphere.
Paula (05:31):
Well, let me take you back a little bit. And let's
start from the beginning. What Ilook at as the beginning, when
it comes to having kids and is,do we want to have kids, and for
many couples, particularly atthe point that they would be
kind of in this audience wouldbe they're seriously dating
(05:53):
engaged, maybe even newlymarried, they have already made
that decision. And and agreeupon that. That's how they kind
of knew that they were on thesame page. But do you have
situations with couples wheremaybe they thought they were on
the same page? And later on,they find out they aren't? Or
someone changes their mind? Orwhat what do you encounter with
(06:15):
that?
Nikki (06:15):
Luckily, in my experience, so far, it has been
relatively rare that peoplehaven't discussed it at all. And
just assumed the other personwas in agreement with them. I
had one, one case where that wasgoing on where one person did
not want children and thought,obviously, my partner knows that
(06:36):
about me. And oh, wow, theperson wanted children. And I
don't know if they thought theirpartner would change their mind,
or they take it seriously oragain, just kind of avoided
subjects in the conflict. Butthey came to me at the
intersection of one is like,let's let's start our family and
other persons like, What are youtalking about? I don't want a
(06:58):
family. I don't want. So thatwas a really tough situation.
Yeah.
Paula (07:04):
Well, I think maybe the point here to emphasize is,
don't go into it assuming thatyour partner is going to change
their mind. Absolutely, yes.
Except what they say and anddecide if you can live with
that.
Nikki (07:21):
i That's good advice.
That's I would Yeah, I wouldrecommend assuming they won't
change their mind. Right. Mostlywhat what happens, I think, in
my work, that's an outlier, eventhough it did happen. But
mostly, it's often about timing.
Paula (07:36):
That's what just what I was gonna move to next. So why
don't you speak to that? Becausethat's, that's a big one to win.
Yeah.
Nikki (07:44):
So it? It varies, but I think the thing that I see most
often is for sis women who areafraid of losing their fertility
window, I guess, there's a lotof angst, anxiety about let's no
(08:08):
matter what's going on, we'lljust figure it out. Let's just
get pregnant. And let's go.
Right. And I think that it is alittle bit even to me working in
the field, it's a little bitunclear if women have been given
the right information about whattheir fertility window actually
is. Yes, I think women haveinternalized a sense that if
they're not getting go, and by acertain age, and sometimes it's
(08:30):
taken a while to meet somebodybecause of jobs and moving
around, and that kind of thing.
That is just the first order ofbusiness for them. Whereas their
partners like whoa, whoa, whoa,like I was actually hoping we
could maybe travel first or dothis first. And then sometimes,
you know, I am seeing coupleswho, for the most part, you
(08:53):
know, I want people to come inproactively. But often, if it's
a heterosexual couple, the malepartner will be saying, very
understandably, I think weshould figure this out first,
before we start to have afamily. And their female partner
is saying we'll figure that outlater, because I've got this
window, right, the clock isticking. clock is ticking. So I
(09:15):
try to use it as a motivator tofigure out what the distress is
about. Because it's true thatthe stress doesn't get better on
its own and actually tends tointensify with children. If
Paula (09:26):
you're not planning to have kids right away. Birth
control is important. And I saythat people are like, oh, yeah,
of course. But I will say youcan get a little by x maybe
after you get married andsurprise. That is something for
couples to maintain if theydon't want to have kids right
(09:47):
away. So that's on one sidehaving them sooner than
expected. On the other side, Ithink you know, couples assume,
after all this time of usingtheir birth control Then now
when they're ready, it's goingto happen right away. And
infertility is a big issue. Andanother one that's not talked
(10:08):
about as much as secondaryinfertility. You don't hear that
term very much. But so can youspeak to kind of the infertility
issue, not as a obviously not asa medical provider, but how you
work with couples, whereinfertility is an issue?
Nikki (10:25):
Yeah, so generally people become aware that they may be
maybe there's some infertilityissue with one of them, once
they start trying. So it's likereally sad, because because they
felt ready. And they're reallywanting it to, you know, really
want to welcome a child intotheir lives. Often, people worry
(10:50):
that if if something is awrywith them medically, that their
partner will see themdifferently, that they will love
them as much, or that they'llblame them. Two couples need a
lot of reassurance that youknow, from each other, that,
that doesn't change how theyfeel about the person. But they
(11:12):
also need to make room for somegrief, even if they ultimately
get pregnant, it not going theway they thought it was gonna
Paula (11:19):
wake up. Right? And that speak, that makes me think about
that the couples should behaving some proactive
conversations around what theyare willing to do if they have
these fertility issues. Whatwhat level of medical
intervention are they willing todo, because some people will be
(11:41):
willing to do everything. Everyoption is on the table. And some
people are not fullycomfortable. Don't donor eggs,
donor sperm, that thing now withqueer couples, they know going
into it, obviously, that there'sgoing to be some some donated,
or some intervention medically.
But that's one to decide. Andthen that moves into adoption as
(12:03):
well. Where do you stand onthat? If you are a couple who's
struggling with infertility? Andcan you make that determination?
Kind of in advance? And ofcourse, you don't know how
you're going to feel when thesituation comes up. Let's
acknowledge that. Right. But atleast if you've broached the
(12:24):
subject, had thoseconversations, you're ahead of
the game. And so now you'refacing this very emotional
situation. You've had theconversations. Yeah,
Nikki (12:37):
that's a really good point. And also, you made me
think of talking about yourstance on a lot of times genetic
testing is a big part of afertility journey. So you get
pregnant, and then there's thistesting, and then how do we feel
about right? Do we do we wantthe testing? Would we use the
(12:58):
information to make a decisionto end the pregnancy? Would we
not do that? Like, how do we?
And again, you you might feeldifferently, hypothetically,
then you feel when you're anactual situation. But you're
right, I think if the seeds beenplanted, at least we've opened
the door to being able to talkabout this, then that creates, I
think, a more more opportunityto support each other when
(13:22):
you're in a situation like that.
So yeah, a lot a lot ofunexpected things that cause
self worth and self identitystruggles, and certainly grief
about the dream of how it wasgonna go
Paula (13:41):
is going to unfold.
Right, right. Well, I guess inaddition to the if, and the when
another issue is, how many? Anddo you? Do you counsel couples
who are having struggles aroundhow many? I mean, it's certainly
something to talk about inadvance. And again, not
(14:01):
something that always ends upthe way you thought it was going
to end up in terms of thenumber. As I mentioned,
secondary infertility, for thosewho haven't heard that
expression is you have been ableto have one successful pregnancy
and have one child, and then yougo to have another child and you
have an issue. So there's that.
(14:22):
But there's also more surprisedbabies, the poor people. So what
do you see around the number ofkids that people want?
Certainly,
Nikki (14:29):
it can be heartbreaking if people want to or more and
then they encounter someobstacle to to getting pregnant
again. And then that question ofwell, how far would we go is
irrelevant again, like how, whatwill we do to add a second child
to our family? But the otherthing I see is people who want
(14:52):
children, you know, people talkabout what it's like to have
children but you don't reallyknow what it's gonna be like for
you until you are a pair Writeyourself. And sometimes people
have different reactions to theexperience of having the first
child like, okay, okay, well,that is harder than I thought.
And I think I'm good, we gotone. But that I think that
(15:14):
happens a lot too. It's likethis overwhelm about the idea of
like, well, one can bedifficult. One is a lot more
work for us, and how are wegoing to do more than one? Or?
That's, I think, a common one.
You
Paula (15:28):
know, another thing that comes up for some people is
gender and have a gender impactsthe number has, I mean, I'm sure
you know, or have dealt withcouples, and I certainly know
people who had to, let's say,they had two girls, they thought
they were just wanted to, butnow they have two girls, and
it's like, oh, let's, let's tryfor a boy. Or the reverse. You
(15:51):
know, we have these two boys.
Now, maybe one more. Other, Ihave to tell you, I do know,
someone, three girls sided totry one more time for a boy,
twin girls.
Nikki (16:04):
That's a really good point. Maybe in general, like,
certainly gender, but it's like,all, all you maybe have a little
bit of control over is trying toget pregnant, you know, in some
way. And even that you've beentalking about, it's not totally
under your control. But whateverperson you give birth to, it's
(16:29):
gonna be who they're going tobe. Yes. So counseling couples
on how, how do we foster anacceptance of this, this person,
and our role is to rear them andaccept them, and, you know, help
them thrive as whoever they are,you know, a girl or a boy I are.
Paula (16:53):
But people, you know, people still have these images
in their mind of what is goingto mean many people to have a
daughter or to have a son. Andthat image may not align with
the baby, the child that showsup in your life. And I you know,
I don't know how you feel aboutthis, but I really do believe
(17:15):
they come here with theirpersonalities, you are shaping
around the edges, right. And soif you're going to you think
you're going to turn that kidinto what you want them to be
and what image you had, that'snot gonna go well, that's not
gonna go well for you or forthem. And it also may not go
well in your marriage, in yourrelationship, because that's,
(17:39):
that's just going to causestrife.
Nikki (17:41):
You can't really predict anything specific, but at least
planting the seed that whoever,whoever shows up in your life,
whoever the child is, is likelygoing to be serving as a mirror
to parts of you that you mayfeel uncomfortable with, that
(18:02):
you still need to heal. And thatthat's totally normal. And it's
totally fine. And it's actuallyreally good. Because then I do
Emotionally Focused Therapy wesay in EFT you have to feel it
to heal it. So anytime you feeluncomfortable, it's like good.
But we have to stay with it.
Paula (18:20):
You mentioned EFT Emotionally Focused Therapy, can
you I was trying to make sure webreak down any terms that people
may know, can you give us thekind of the quick version of
what EFT is Emotionally FocusedTherapy?
Nikki (18:34):
Yeah. So luckily, it is kind of in the name a little bit
that we focus on emotion andreason that we do is that we
believe emotions are thetelltale sign of needs that we
have. If we can stay with anemotion long enough to let it
unfold. That we naturally get intouch with a need that's
(18:57):
embedded in the emotion. So forexample, when people do have,
let's say, a reaction to theirchild being a certain way, let's
say they were hoping for a son,they're hoping for a daughter,
maybe they tend to get reallyirritated with the child and
like if you stay with theirritation. One common thing
(19:22):
could be I don't feel connectedto my child, there's something
about their gender or somethingabout the way they express their
emotions. That really makes mefeel like we're really different
and that I can't connect with mychild and my need is to be able
to connect with my child. And ifyou could stay with that, then
there's ways to find pathways toconnection being in a marriage
(19:47):
together. You know, people havea front row seat to their
partners issues. Like seeingseeing your partner have this
reaction It's like, how do youhelp support them. But
unfortunately, because parentingis such a, it brings up such
(20:07):
strong emotions for people andpeople feel really strongly
about being a quote unquote,good parent, whatever that
means, right? That their partneris doing something, or reacting
to their child in a way that isthreatening to them in some way,
like, oh, no, you're going totraumatize our child?
Paula (20:23):
Well, let's, let's talk a little bit about kind of, again,
moving into some of theseconversations, and some of these
things that couples can do toprepare. One thing that comes up
a lot, is kind of the roles thatyou play, and the expectations
you have of yourself, theexpectation you might have of
yourself as a parent, but alsothe expectations you have of
(20:46):
your partner, you can thinkyou're very progressive, and
egalitarian, and all of thesethings, but these traditional
gender expectations can can kindof come upon you in ways that
you did not expect. So I see youshaking your head, I know
you've, you've dealt with that alot. I bet you that's one of the
big issues that you deal with
Nikki (21:05):
that one, and I'm trying to remember when the research
was done, but there's not asmuch research on queer families
as there are on heterosexualfamilies, unfortunately, but the
research on heterosexual couplesis that even if they go into it,
saying we want a moreegalitarian set of roles that we
(21:29):
naturally kind of like it's,like, naturally navigate or sort
of drift off the rift overtowards more stereotypical
traditional roles where andthat's kind of where fairplay
can often come in, is that in aheterosexual relationship that
the female partner is managing,and maybe even sometimes feeling
(21:53):
like she needs to control the,the parenting and the childcare
elements? And what how that goesand manage how clean things are
in the house and what thechild's can eat, and you know,
all that stuff. And male partneris in a position of supporting,
(22:16):
usually financially, the familythat is sort of like I don't
know what's going on. She's,she's the boss. In fact, one of
my, one of my clients, hisnickname for his wife is the
boss. And I think she's okaywith it. But it's kind of
telling that that
Paula (22:38):
I see, I think that's one of those things. On the one
hand, I think many women and I'mspeaking kind of personally, in
terms of myself and people thatI know, you may want to be the
boss in certain respects, butbeing the boss becomes such a
burden. Yes, and the overwhelm,which overwhelm often leads to
(23:05):
resentment. But sometimes we'reresenting situations that we co
created. Just a quick pause tolet you know about the free mini
course available at practicallymarried.net Sign up for get
ready to say I do to explorefive of the practically marry
(23:27):
subjects. In the course, youwill receive an email about each
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question homework assignment, toget you and your partner talking
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household, your in laws, andmore. Go to practically
married.net/free-course to signup now. Okay, let's get back to
(23:54):
our conversation.
Nikki (23:58):
This is one of the reasons actually, that I got
interested in doing couplestherapy was that I worked with
individual women in a women'smental health clinic that were
dealing with postpartum mentalhealth issues. And one of the
issues I really realized thatwas coming up for my clients is
(24:19):
that they wanted their partnershelp with childcare in
particular. And you know, theseare people who are postpartum
said very young infants, butthey were okay with the way that
he did things. And so, anytimehe would come in to take care of
(24:42):
the baby, she would have anissue with how he was doing
things and say that and then hewould be more likely to back up
and then she would be morelikely to feel alone and
overwhelmed, and reallyresentful. So the CO created is
they call it maternalgatekeeping in the literature
There are that, okay, withoutrealizing it, women have a hard
(25:03):
time letting their partner kindof figure out their own way.
Paula (25:08):
And that will be an issue I can see with queer couples as
well, because it's not, that'snot about gender roles per se,
that could be one partner hasspent more time with the babies
maybe had some more, kind ofmore of a natural way of
soothing the baby in thatexample that that you gave,
well, part of the expectations,were talking about expectations
(25:31):
that your own expectations oryour partner's expectations. But
a lot of the messages we'regetting are from outside of our
relationship, it is coming fromextended family, and it's coming
from the greater culture,whatever
Nikki (25:47):
you've internalized about what a good parent is that
you're supposed to not be awayfrom the baby, for example,
you're supposed to want to bewith the baby all the time. I
think, you know, some people,that's not an issue at all, I
hear the baby by people, they'relike, I'm not supposed to have
(26:09):
time away from the baby. And I'mnot supposed to enjoy time with
the baby. And so it's reallyhard for them to take a break.
And that more often I've seenwith women, but it just sort of
depends on what have you, whathave you heard about how you're
even supposed to feel aboutbeing a parent. And then that
can become, you can cause a lotof suffering, when people feel
(26:32):
differently when they're toldthey're supposed to feel and
internalize expectations aboutyou know, screens is a big one.
It starts early, especially withZoom. When I when I've done zoom
therapy with new parents, thebaby is with them, I always
(26:52):
encourage couples to bringbabies in as much as they want,
but certainly when they're thatyoung, and people saying oh, I
don't want the baby looking atthe screen. Because when it's
funny when babies see screens,they're just like the rest of
us, they kind of you know, soit's, um, it's it's really
interesting kinds of thingsthat, that come up about what
(27:16):
people have internalized as faras what what a quote unquote
good parents, as I keep saying,quote, unquote, because I think
unfortunately, we have reallyclear a clear sort of sense of
what a bad parent is like, likereally extreme things that, of
course, people can generallyavoid. But what makes a good
(27:36):
parent seems pretty abstract.
And it's so subject toinfluenced by family and other
cultural sources of information.
Well,
Paula (27:50):
you mentioned family, let's talk a little bit about
that. Because what what tends tohappen is the role of the
extended family changes andinvolvement of extended family
changes when there is a newbaby. And that can present some,
some challenges. I mean, it canbe great right to have, you
(28:11):
know, if nothing else, freechildcare, sometimes just, it
can make grandparents, let'ssay, it's just so happy, and you
can be happy to see them happy.
But there can also be situationswhere grandparents and that can
be, you know, for eitherpartner, it could be their
parents, or their partner'sparents who want to be overly
involved wants to be there morethan you want, or kind of
(28:37):
trespass over certainboundaries. So can you speak to
how couples can kind of navigateand just have the conversations
that prepare them for for thatpossibility?
Nikki (28:51):
Yeah. Yeah, I think that I'm thinking about conflict
style again. Of course,probably, that's where your
conflict style was developed waswith your family of origin,
parents and siblings. Andsometimes you can predict how
(29:11):
people are going to be onceyou've had a child, because
they're already kind of doingthat like wanting to come over
more than you want, or maybestaying longer. But sometimes
it's unclear how your parents inparticular, like the future
grandparents would, wouldbehave. Generally people don't
respond well, to hearing theirpartner criticize their family.
(29:33):
Some people it doesn't botherthem at all. They're like, Yeah,
I know. That's how they are. Butsome people it's like, oh, no,
you know, and then that can kindof set the couple to be sort of
feeling adversarial towards youtowards each other, which you
definitely don't want. Sotalking about okay, how, how can
we, together discuss things whenwe have a complaint about each
(29:56):
other's family? How can we bringthat up to you each other? And
how can you know that I valueyour family even if I have a
complaint about them? Or maybethat's even something to talk
about is like, how? How do yousee? How would you like your
family to be involved or not?
And because I think that's oftenwhy criticisms can feel so
(30:20):
threatening is that it soundslike you're saying you don't
want my family around. Oh, no,no, and then get reactive to
that, right?
Paula (30:28):
Well, that's why I want to have this conversation with
you. Because these are theconversations I want couples to
have. Now, before they havekids. And before somebody's
mother is standing right there,and you wish they would leave
like, well, how are we going toprepare, so that, you know, I
(30:49):
value your family, but I alsovalue let's say, the boundaries
that we have about our home, orthe rules that we might come up
with, for our child. And whenwe're talking about a baby,
we're not talking about rules,per se. But we have things that
(31:10):
we want to do maybe ways we wantto be them? How then would you
coach a couple to have thatconversation? I guess one in
advance. mean, you know, whenit's down the line, we'll circle
back to that, but they're goingto have that conversation in
(31:30):
advance about how to navigatekind of these issues with each
other's families. How would youcoach them through that?
Nikki (31:38):
Well, I think one one thing is from, and this is
Emotionally Focused Therapy, butit is also assuming we as
adults, just like children, weneed trusted people, not that
many, but just a few trustedpeople that we feel have our
(32:01):
back, that we can trust that ifwe're are in trouble, we can
call them and they'll come andthey'll respond to us. And so
from a an attachmentperspective, our partner would
be one of those people, thatmight sound obvious, but that
your partner should be like yourperson who's your ride or die,
they have your back. So it is abit of a value, I openly own
(32:25):
that value as a therapist, likethis is part of what we're
trying to establish here. And Ithink that when partners feel
like this person and I we haveeach other's back, if there's
anything that threatens thatfeeling, we have to deal with
that, first, we are a team,we're each other's person, we're
each other's priority, then itbecomes much easier to talk
(32:51):
about the other attachmentrelationships, which are usually
family, parents, siblings, etc.
Because those people matter,too. But if we're not a team,
and we feel at odds, it's reallyhard to talk about how to
negotiate these other boundarieswe want to have. And then I
think the other thing that Iwould coach people on is, if you
(33:13):
already have a sense, like howdo you see your family, in terms
of involvement in your life?
What kind of time do you want tospend? We certainly could talk
about that. The coaching isfocusing on how do you raise a
complaint about someone yourpartner loves is near and dear
to them in a way that respectsthat relationship. And in a way
(33:37):
that gives very generous benefitof the doubt to the family that
you might have a complaintabout? Like I'm assuming the
absolute best about, let's sayyour mother, my mother. And I'm
wondering what's going on?
Because I said to her many timesdon't come over without calling.
Let's say this? Yes. And shecontinues to come over without
(34:00):
calling. I wonder what'shappening there. What do you
think? How can we talk aboutthat? Do you can I talk to her
about it? Do you want to talk toher about it? We talked to her
about it together, but a verygentle way of bringing up a
complaint again, with thisgenerosity in mind. And
Paula (34:22):
also a think If couples are having these conversations
in advance, and kind of saying,okay, when we have children, how
do we want our families to beinvolved? And, and what what are
our boundaries? And if you'vetalked about certain things
(34:45):
before you're in it, you're lessemotionally kind of worked up
about it. So I think that's whatthat's what I'm always trying to
get to is like how can weencourage couples to have these
conversations proactively nowthat doesn't mean mean, you
could come to an agreement? Yes,we're gonna ask my mother to
call first because she's gonnabe very excited. And she's gonna
(35:08):
want to stop by on the way home.
You could have that conversationand make that agreement and then
two years from now, when ithappens, maybe you maybe forget
that you set that boundary, ormaybe that boundary that you set
is now harder to enforce. But atleast if you've had the
conversation, I feel like eachpartner knows where the other
(35:31):
one stands. And you can startkind of that negotiation before
you're emotionally worked up.
Nikki (35:39):
Absolutely. No. Planned uncertainty, planned
uncertainty, you know, like, Iassume, I don't really know how
exactly I'm gonna feel. But hereare some of the common ways that
people deal with this. And sothat when it happens, it's like,
hopefully it sparks Oh, yeah. Wewe were told this might happen.
(36:02):
It's happening. Oh, right. Youknow, and there's a couple of
skills that you already havethat you can pull from.
Paula (36:08):
Right. Right. Right.
Well, kind of related to family,but a little bit different. It's
kind of the subjects of cultureand religion. And, you know,
that's another one, I think thatthat comes up as an issue,
because what seems what'shappening now is that couples,
just people in general, are notas affiliated with traditional
religion as they once were. Andso maybe as a couple, you don't
(36:34):
have a religious practice, youdon't participate in any type of
religious activities. Butoftentimes, people want to have
their children at least gothrough some of the rites of
passage for that religion, whichis something to talk about,
particularly a couples ofdifferent faiths. Because you,
if neither one of the partnersis practicing their faith, and
(36:59):
then all of a sudden, it's like,oh, I want to have our baby
baptized. What do you youhaven't been a church? And in
the whole time I've known you.
So how was that one? How do youfind that one to navigate? I'm
thinking that's another one thatbenefits from Bill's very
proactive conversations. Yes.
Nikki (37:19):
That makes me think of another thing I forgot to
mention, which I think it's inline. But it's, I think,
proactively developing plans. Ifyou don't already have one for
community, not just family, butcommunity. Because we cannot
parent alone. It's very hard.
And when I say alone, I meanalone with your partner. I think
(37:43):
you have a an idea of family andour culture that puts people on
an island with just theirpartner and their kid, and you
actually need a community.
Paula (37:58):
It takes a village. It takes a village man. And it
really does when you have kids,you you'll know it does take
more than just the two of you.
That's why when I literally wasI'm from Chicago, but I was
living in New York when I had mykids. And when I had my second
baby, I was in the hospital roomfilling out mortgage papers for
(38:19):
a house in Chicago, because whenthe second baby arrived, I said
I gotta get back to Chicago,I've got to be where I have my
family where I have, where Ihave my village where I have my
community, and my husband wasalso he had also lived in
Chicago. So he had people hereas well.
Nikki (38:40):
Yeah, yeah, that's a great example. Like this is a
priority. And so it made methink of that, because religious
communities can often be one ofthe one of the communities that
people have for their family.
But, you know, obviously,religion is very emotional for
people. That's a good example,the baptism thing. It's like, I
(39:02):
like I may not be practicinganymore, but I internalized this
idea that the baby's notbaptized. Go to hell isn't a
heaven and that sounds mayberidiculous on some level where I
am given where I am, but I justdon't want to do it. So like
having some discussion about howhow the values play in from
(39:26):
religion that we want to sharewith our with our child and how
would we want to share thosethere room for us to be
interfaith and, and start tothink through? Well, what did
this really mean to me when Iwas younger? What rituals for
example, in terms of likeholidays, and how do we see our
(39:47):
family celebrating differentparts of the year and what did
those things mean to us? Whatare we really hoping our child
will learn and To really thinkthinking through what that means
for the enrichment of our familylife, and the child's learning
values and what's important,what
Paula (40:12):
think that's particularly, you know, we think
of it as being particularly anissue for interfaith couples.
But I have, I haven't seen thisterm anywhere. So I don't know
if I've coined it but intrafaith among couples. And what I
mean by that is just because youare of the same religious
background, doesn't mean youhave the same views on how to
(40:35):
participate in your religion.
And it doesn't mean that youhave the same views on how you
want your your potential childto be raised in that religion.
And so I just want to cautioncouples have the same faith
don't think that theseconversations are just for
couples of different faithbackgrounds, or different
cultural backgrounds. Hmm,
Nikki (40:56):
yeah, that's a really good point. Well, before
Paula (40:59):
we wrap up, there's one other thing I want to get to,
and people will really think I'mtrying to be proactive with this
one. But the issue is childcare.
Okay. And I'm not saying thatyou is three years away from
wanting to have kids, I'm notsaying you should be going out
and looking at daycare centers.
What I'm suggesting here is thatcouples have conversations about
(41:26):
what childcare looks like forthem. And that's something while
I'll let you speak to that, butI just, I think it has so many
implications, childcare isrelated to professional choices,
choices around where you live,then there's all the emotional
considerations, and eventhinking about how you were
(41:47):
raised and how you may want yourchild to be cared for. Or not.
Nikki (41:53):
Yeah, I agree. I'm thinking and thinking about
learning from, I guess, pitfallsand communication about what
what one should talk aboutproactively, or at least like we
said, the plant uncertainty likethink about, think about this,
even if you're not sure how youfeel about it yet. One of the
things that people may not beaware of that they should think
(42:17):
about is how much do differentoptions cost? I'm assuming that
it's going to be something youhave to pay for. Because what
one of the pitfalls I've seen ispeople don't necessarily look it
up or do research. And then thebaby's here, and one person's
(42:37):
like, wait, I know, we talkedabout sending our child to this
daycare center, but I don't wantto send our childhood daycare
center, I want someone to comeinto our home and watch the
baby. And there's a big costdifference between those things.
And then the one partnerstressed about money and the
other person stressed about whatkind of care their child's gonna
get. So I think like, inaddition to what you're saying,
(42:59):
like, how do we feel about adaycare center? And what does
that look like in terms of ratioof caregiver to child versus
some someone that comes into ourhome? There are stresses with
that, that have to do withpersonality. Now you're
somebody's employer, like thingslike that to think, what would
(43:21):
that be like for us to employsomeone and pay them and give
them paid time off when they'renot watching our child or sick
days? And the stress of if theyare sick? What are we going to
do and weighing the pros andcons, which again, like you
said, it may seem like it's,it's early, and it's so
hypothetical, but those arepretty predictable stressors
(43:43):
that might be good to just plantthe seed like, Okay, what's our
budget? What do we what do weenvision here, or sometimes
people have a baby, and theyrealize that they don't want to
go back to work because theywant to be the person, right
care of their child. And, andthat's, you know, that can
(44:03):
happen, no matter what yourgender identity is, that
somebody might say, hey, youknow what I want to stay home.
So thinking through thefinancial part,
Paula (44:15):
if you have the conversations and think about it
in advance, maybe you start tokind of mold your career path,
to be more accommodating tohaving a child, it could be over
a course of several years,right? Maybe you want to get to
a certain company that you feelhas more family friendly
policies? Well, you know, it maytake some time to be able to get
(44:38):
a job at that company. And so ifyou're thinking about it in
advance and thinking, Okay, I dowant to provide care for my
child at least part time. Well,now I've got to find a work
situation that accommodatesthat, and that could be a one or
two year process.
Nikki (44:56):
Mm hmm. Yeah, I think we're at Think what we're saying
here is this the intentionalitybehind these decisions that
everything can be intentional.
Even if it seems like so far offin the future. It reminds me of,
actually, this is another thingthat people do need to think
about and they start to havechildren is estate planning. All
these conversations of what doyou think you would want? If
(45:21):
this happened? Or what do youthink? Who do you think you'd
want your state to go to? Or whowould make the right decisions
for you who's
Paula (45:30):
going to care for your child is something to care for
our child?
Nikki (45:34):
Yeah, something happens to both of us simultaneously,
like these, these things thatare that can be hard to think
about. But make it so mucheasier if you've planted the
seed, right? This is an okaything for us to talk about. And
I can handle it, and you canhandle it. But
Paula (45:51):
I think ultimately, what what we want for couples, I know
we share this is that thetransition is as smooth as
possible is not going to besmooth. Because having a baby is
just life up ending. It's stilllife up ending and you know, I
have teenagers. So having kidsnot just having a baby, we'll
(46:12):
just say having kids is is itchanges things. But if you've
had those conversations inadvance, you're going to be
better off than having to dealwith things and they've never
come up.
Nikki (46:26):
Yeah, absolutely. Okay.
Well, I
Paula (46:29):
think that's a good place for us to wrap it up. We've
given couples so many things tothink of, and there's more, you
know, there's more issues totalk about. But I will leave
them with this for now. And theycan start having these
conversations and maybe we'llcircle back and and given them a
few more things to talk about.
Yeah. Well, thank you, Nikki,really for joining us and for
(46:50):
sharing your perspective onthis. As I said, this is an area
of specialty for you. So I'mglad we can have you on. Yes,
Nikki (46:57):
thanks for having me.
Paula (47:08):
To learn more about Nikki's work, you can visit her
website, Nikki lively.com. Or goto her page on the family
Institute's website, where youcan find a library of great
resources. Check the show notesfor all the links.
(47:33):
Thanks for joining us this week.
If you like what you hear,subscribe to practically marry
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You can also follow the show onInstagram at get practically
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(47:57):
way to support the show would beto tell someone about it. Tell
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That's all for now. Have a goodone.
Why would you want to think about childcare when
(00:02):
you're one, two, or even threeyears away from having kids?
Well, that's just one of thethings you'll find out in
today's episode. All right,let's get into it.
(00:28):
Welcome to practically married,the podcast created to help
dating engaged and newly marriedcouples prepare for healthy long
term committed relationships.
I'm Paula Holt. And on thisshow, I'm going to bring you
conversations with experts whowill give you tools to take your
relationship to the next level.
(00:50):
Although many of our guests willbe therapists, please keep in
mind that practically married isfor educational purposes only,
and is not a substitute fortherapy with a licensed
professional. Hi, and welcome tothe show. Today we're talking
about how to prepare for havingkids. As I mentioned, it may
(01:11):
seem early to get into thistopic. But we're not talking
about baby proofing or sleeptraining or anything like that.
We're talking about theconversations, you can start
having now to be better preparedwhen you decide to have kids.
And we've got just the rightperson to talk about this,
because she's the ClinicalDirector of the transitions to
(01:32):
parenthood program at the FamilyInstitute at Northwestern
University. Nikki lively is aclinical social worker who
specializes in maternal mentalhealth. In addition to her work
with people making thetransition to becoming parents,
Nikki uses a method of therapycalled Emotionally Focused
Therapy, and her work withcouples, which is something
(01:55):
she'll explain in ourconversation. All right, let's
welcome Nikki lively to theshow. Hi, Nikki, welcome to
practically married.
Nikki (02:06):
I thanks for having me.
Paula (02:07):
Oh, thank you for being here. I am excited to have you.
Because although a lot oftherapists can talk to couples
about preparing to have kids,this is your specialty. And so I
want to you I have my eye on youfor a while because I wanted you
to talk about this subject andreally get into how we can help
(02:30):
couples be better prepared whenthey decide to have kids and
some couples may be thinkingright now, hey, this is, you
know, a year, two years, threeyears down the line for us? Why
should we be talking about thisnow? And so I will ask you why
should we be talking about this?
Now, if it's a few years away?
Nikki (02:48):
I think that it actually it can be hard for a couple of
us to talk about something inadvance. When things are going
well. It is hard to think aboutwhat would it be like if we
encountered an obstacle that itgets hard to know what things
you might even disagree about?
How will we know that we're notseeing something eye to eye? And
(03:09):
how will we make space toactually sit and really talk
about something. And for as longas we need to? It can be helpful
with a lot of different things.
But certainly with havingchildren, people need more time
(03:29):
to really figure things out whenthey disagree, then they might
actually think that the prep isgetting ready for potential
moments of like, oh, that's whatyou think about that? Oh, that's
what I think you know.
Paula (03:43):
And even if you agree on a lot of things, there's some
advanced work that you can do,or just some things that you can
do to make the transition alittle smoother, a little
smoother. So well, can you sharewith us how you work with
couples? I'm curious about that.
And in in making that transitionto parenthood,
Nikki (04:04):
when people come to couples therapy, you know, early
on, and part of what they'reanticipating is that they will
start their family. I try towork on supporting people again,
to have some sense of how do Ideal with conflict when I have
it with someone I really careabout really identifying what is
(04:28):
our pattern, for example,there's often a pairing I don't
know why but somehow, oftenthere's a pairing of one person
is more conflict avoidant, andone person really wants to talk
until things feel better. Andthose two styles can cause some
strife, some stress, also one ofthe key things that it can start
(04:52):
to come up before children butit gets intensified once there
are children is division oflabor, so to speak. in the
household, this ability to trusteach other, to follow through on
things to trust that if somebodysays, I'm going to take care of
it, that they are going to takecare of whatever that is, it's
(05:15):
related to trust to sexualinterest, maintaining feelings
of liking and loving yourpartner, respect and trust are
so tied to these daily, like theintersection of, of these things
in the domestic sphere.
Paula (05:31):
Well, let me take you back a little bit. And let's
start from the beginning. What Ilook at as the beginning, when
it comes to having kids and is,do we want to have kids, and for
many couples, particularly atthe point that they would be
kind of in this audience wouldbe they're seriously dating
(05:53):
engaged, maybe even newlymarried, they have already made
that decision. And and agreeupon that. That's how they kind
of knew that they were on thesame page. But do you have
situations with couples wheremaybe they thought they were on
the same page? And later on,they find out they aren't? Or
someone changes their mind? Orwhat what do you encounter with
(06:15):
that?
Nikki (06:15):
Luckily, in my experience, so far, it has been
relatively rare that peoplehaven't discussed it at all. And
just assumed the other personwas in agreement with them. I
had one, one case where that wasgoing on where one person did
not want children and thought,obviously, my partner knows that
(06:36):
about me. And oh, wow, theperson wanted children. And I
don't know if they thought theirpartner would change their mind,
or they take it seriously oragain, just kind of avoided
subjects in the conflict. Butthey came to me at the
intersection of one is like,let's let's start our family and
other persons like, What are youtalking about? I don't want a
(06:58):
family. I don't want. So thatwas a really tough situation.
Yeah.
Paula (07:04):
Well, I think maybe the point here to emphasize is,
don't go into it assuming thatyour partner is going to change
their mind. Absolutely, yes.
Except what they say and anddecide if you can live with
that.
Nikki (07:21):
i That's good advice.
That's I would Yeah, I wouldrecommend assuming they won't
change their mind. Right. Mostlywhat what happens, I think, in
my work, that's an outlier, eventhough it did happen. But
mostly, it's often about timing.
Paula (07:36):
That's what just what I was gonna move to next. So why
don't you speak to that? Becausethat's, that's a big one to win.
Yeah.
Nikki (07:44):
So it? It varies, but I think the thing that I see most
often is for sis women who areafraid of losing their fertility
window, I guess, there's a lotof angst, anxiety about let's no
(08:08):
matter what's going on, we'lljust figure it out. Let's just
get pregnant. And let's go.
Right. And I think that it is alittle bit even to me working in
the field, it's a little bitunclear if women have been given
the right information about whattheir fertility window actually
is. Yes, I think women haveinternalized a sense that if
they're not getting go, and by acertain age, and sometimes it's
(08:30):
taken a while to meet somebodybecause of jobs and moving
around, and that kind of thing.
That is just the first order ofbusiness for them. Whereas their
partners like whoa, whoa, whoa,like I was actually hoping we
could maybe travel first or dothis first. And then sometimes,
you know, I am seeing coupleswho, for the most part, you
(08:53):
know, I want people to come inproactively. But often, if it's
a heterosexual couple, the malepartner will be saying, very
understandably, I think weshould figure this out first,
before we start to have afamily. And their female partner
is saying we'll figure that outlater, because I've got this
window, right, the clock isticking. clock is ticking. So I
(09:15):
try to use it as a motivator tofigure out what the distress is
about. Because it's true thatthe stress doesn't get better on
its own and actually tends tointensify with children. If
Paula (09:26):
you're not planning to have kids right away. Birth
control is important. And I saythat people are like, oh, yeah,
of course. But I will say youcan get a little by x maybe
after you get married andsurprise. That is something for
couples to maintain if theydon't want to have kids right
(09:47):
away. So that's on one sidehaving them sooner than
expected. On the other side, Ithink you know, couples assume,
after all this time of usingtheir birth control Then now
when they're ready, it's goingto happen right away. And
infertility is a big issue. Andanother one that's not talked
(10:08):
about as much as secondaryinfertility. You don't hear that
term very much. But so can youspeak to kind of the infertility
issue, not as a obviously not asa medical provider, but how you
work with couples, whereinfertility is an issue?
Nikki (10:25):
Yeah, so generally people become aware that they may be
maybe there's some infertilityissue with one of them, once
they start trying. So it's likereally sad, because because they
felt ready. And they're reallywanting it to, you know, really
want to welcome a child intotheir lives. Often, people worry
(10:50):
that if if something is awrywith them medically, that their
partner will see themdifferently, that they will love
them as much, or that they'llblame them. Two couples need a
lot of reassurance that youknow, from each other, that,
that doesn't change how theyfeel about the person. But they
(11:12):
also need to make room for somegrief, even if they ultimately
get pregnant, it not going theway they thought it was gonna
Paula (11:19):
wake up. Right? And that speak, that makes me think about
that the couples should behaving some proactive
conversations around what theyare willing to do if they have
these fertility issues. Whatwhat level of medical
intervention are they willing todo, because some people will be
(11:41):
willing to do everything. Everyoption is on the table. And some
people are not fullycomfortable. Don't donor eggs,
donor sperm, that thing now withqueer couples, they know going
into it, obviously, that there'sgoing to be some some donated,
or some intervention medically.
But that's one to decide. Andthen that moves into adoption as
(12:03):
well. Where do you stand onthat? If you are a couple who's
struggling with infertility? Andcan you make that determination?
Kind of in advance? And ofcourse, you don't know how
you're going to feel when thesituation comes up. Let's
acknowledge that. Right. But atleast if you've broached the
(12:24):
subject, had thoseconversations, you're ahead of
the game. And so now you'refacing this very emotional
situation. You've had theconversations. Yeah,
Nikki (12:37):
that's a really good point. And also, you made me
think of talking about yourstance on a lot of times genetic
testing is a big part of afertility journey. So you get
pregnant, and then there's thistesting, and then how do we feel
about right? Do we do we wantthe testing? Would we use the
(12:58):
information to make a decisionto end the pregnancy? Would we
not do that? Like, how do we?
And again, you you might feeldifferently, hypothetically,
then you feel when you're anactual situation. But you're
right, I think if the seeds beenplanted, at least we've opened
the door to being able to talkabout this, then that creates, I
think, a more more opportunityto support each other when
(13:22):
you're in a situation like that.
So yeah, a lot a lot ofunexpected things that cause
self worth and self identitystruggles, and certainly grief
about the dream of how it wasgonna go
Paula (13:41):
is going to unfold.
Right, right. Well, I guess inaddition to the if, and the when
another issue is, how many? Anddo you? Do you counsel couples
who are having struggles aroundhow many? I mean, it's certainly
something to talk about inadvance. And again, not
(14:01):
something that always ends upthe way you thought it was going
to end up in terms of thenumber. As I mentioned,
secondary infertility, for thosewho haven't heard that
expression is you have been ableto have one successful pregnancy
and have one child, and then yougo to have another child and you
have an issue. So there's that.
(14:22):
But there's also more surprisedbabies, the poor people. So what
do you see around the number ofkids that people want?
Certainly,
Nikki (14:29):
it can be heartbreaking if people want to or more and
then they encounter someobstacle to to getting pregnant
again. And then that question ofwell, how far would we go is
irrelevant again, like how, whatwill we do to add a second child
to our family? But the otherthing I see is people who want
(14:52):
children, you know, people talkabout what it's like to have
children but you don't reallyknow what it's gonna be like for
you until you are a pair Writeyourself. And sometimes people
have different reactions to theexperience of having the first
child like, okay, okay, well,that is harder than I thought.
And I think I'm good, we gotone. But that I think that
(15:14):
happens a lot too. It's likethis overwhelm about the idea of
like, well, one can bedifficult. One is a lot more
work for us, and how are wegoing to do more than one? Or?
That's, I think, a common one.
You
Paula (15:28):
know, another thing that comes up for some people is
gender and have a gender impactsthe number has, I mean, I'm sure
you know, or have dealt withcouples, and I certainly know
people who had to, let's say,they had two girls, they thought
they were just wanted to, butnow they have two girls, and
it's like, oh, let's, let's tryfor a boy. Or the reverse. You
(15:51):
know, we have these two boys.
Now, maybe one more. Other, Ihave to tell you, I do know,
someone, three girls sided totry one more time for a boy,
twin girls.
Nikki (16:04):
That's a really good point. Maybe in general, like,
certainly gender, but it's like,all, all you maybe have a little
bit of control over is trying toget pregnant, you know, in some
way. And even that you've beentalking about, it's not totally
under your control. But whateverperson you give birth to, it's
(16:29):
gonna be who they're going tobe. Yes. So counseling couples
on how, how do we foster anacceptance of this, this person,
and our role is to rear them andaccept them, and, you know, help
them thrive as whoever they are,you know, a girl or a boy I are.
Paula (16:53):
But people, you know, people still have these images
in their mind of what is goingto mean many people to have a
daughter or to have a son. Andthat image may not align with
the baby, the child that showsup in your life. And I you know,
I don't know how you feel aboutthis, but I really do believe
(17:15):
they come here with theirpersonalities, you are shaping
around the edges, right. And soif you're going to you think
you're going to turn that kidinto what you want them to be
and what image you had, that'snot gonna go well, that's not
gonna go well for you or forthem. And it also may not go
well in your marriage, in yourrelationship, because that's,
(17:39):
that's just going to causestrife.
Nikki (17:41):
You can't really predict anything specific, but at least
planting the seed that whoever,whoever shows up in your life,
whoever the child is, is likelygoing to be serving as a mirror
to parts of you that you mayfeel uncomfortable with, that
(18:02):
you still need to heal. And thatthat's totally normal. And it's
totally fine. And it's actuallyreally good. Because then I do
Emotionally Focused Therapy wesay in EFT you have to feel it
to heal it. So anytime you feeluncomfortable, it's like good.
But we have to stay with it.
Paula (18:20):
You mentioned EFT Emotionally Focused Therapy, can
you I was trying to make sure webreak down any terms that people
may know, can you give us thekind of the quick version of
what EFT is Emotionally FocusedTherapy?
Nikki (18:34):
Yeah. So luckily, it is kind of in the name a little bit
that we focus on emotion andreason that we do is that we
believe emotions are thetelltale sign of needs that we
have. If we can stay with anemotion long enough to let it
unfold. That we naturally get intouch with a need that's
(18:57):
embedded in the emotion. So forexample, when people do have,
let's say, a reaction to theirchild being a certain way, let's
say they were hoping for a son,they're hoping for a daughter,
maybe they tend to get reallyirritated with the child and
like if you stay with theirritation. One common thing
(19:22):
could be I don't feel connectedto my child, there's something
about their gender or somethingabout the way they express their
emotions. That really makes mefeel like we're really different
and that I can't connect with mychild and my need is to be able
to connect with my child. And ifyou could stay with that, then
there's ways to find pathways toconnection being in a marriage
(19:47):
together. You know, people havea front row seat to their
partners issues. Like seeingseeing your partner have this
reaction It's like, how do youhelp support them. But
unfortunately, because parentingis such a, it brings up such
(20:07):
strong emotions for people andpeople feel really strongly
about being a quote unquote,good parent, whatever that
means, right? That their partneris doing something, or reacting
to their child in a way that isthreatening to them in some way,
like, oh, no, you're going totraumatize our child?
Paula (20:23):
Well, let's, let's talk a little bit about kind of, again,
moving into some of theseconversations, and some of these
things that couples can do toprepare. One thing that comes up
a lot, is kind of the roles thatyou play, and the expectations
you have of yourself, theexpectation you might have of
yourself as a parent, but alsothe expectations you have of
(20:46):
your partner, you can thinkyou're very progressive, and
egalitarian, and all of thesethings, but these traditional
gender expectations can can kindof come upon you in ways that
you did not expect. So I see youshaking your head, I know
you've, you've dealt with that alot. I bet you that's one of the
big issues that you deal with
Nikki (21:05):
that one, and I'm trying to remember when the research
was done, but there's not asmuch research on queer families
as there are on heterosexualfamilies, unfortunately, but the
research on heterosexual couplesis that even if they go into it,
saying we want a moreegalitarian set of roles that we
(21:29):
naturally kind of like it's,like, naturally navigate or sort
of drift off the rift overtowards more stereotypical
traditional roles where andthat's kind of where fairplay
can often come in, is that in aheterosexual relationship that
the female partner is managing,and maybe even sometimes feeling
(21:53):
like she needs to control the,the parenting and the childcare
elements? And what how that goesand manage how clean things are
in the house and what thechild's can eat, and you know,
all that stuff. And male partneris in a position of supporting,
(22:16):
usually financially, the familythat is sort of like I don't
know what's going on. She's,she's the boss. In fact, one of
my, one of my clients, hisnickname for his wife is the
boss. And I think she's okaywith it. But it's kind of
telling that that
Paula (22:38):
I see, I think that's one of those things. On the one
hand, I think many women and I'mspeaking kind of personally, in
terms of myself and people thatI know, you may want to be the
boss in certain respects, butbeing the boss becomes such a
burden. Yes, and the overwhelm,which overwhelm often leads to
(23:05):
resentment. But sometimes we'reresenting situations that we co
created. Just a quick pause tolet you know about the free mini
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ready to say I do to explorefive of the practically marry
(23:27):
subjects. In the course, youwill receive an email about each
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(23:54):
our conversation.
Nikki (23:58):
This is one of the reasons actually, that I got
interested in doing couplestherapy was that I worked with
individual women in a women'smental health clinic that were
dealing with postpartum mentalhealth issues. And one of the
issues I really realized thatwas coming up for my clients is
(24:19):
that they wanted their partnershelp with childcare in
particular. And you know, theseare people who are postpartum
said very young infants, butthey were okay with the way that
he did things. And so, anytimehe would come in to take care of
(24:42):
the baby, she would have anissue with how he was doing
things and say that and then hewould be more likely to back up
and then she would be morelikely to feel alone and
overwhelmed, and reallyresentful. So the CO created is
they call it maternalgatekeeping in the literature
There are that, okay, withoutrealizing it, women have a hard
(25:03):
time letting their partner kindof figure out their own way.
Paula (25:08):
And that will be an issue I can see with queer couples as
well, because it's not, that'snot about gender roles per se,
that could be one partner hasspent more time with the babies
maybe had some more, kind ofmore of a natural way of
soothing the baby in thatexample that that you gave,
well, part of the expectations,were talking about expectations
(25:31):
that your own expectations oryour partner's expectations. But
a lot of the messages we'regetting are from outside of our
relationship, it is coming fromextended family, and it's coming
from the greater culture,whatever
Nikki (25:47):
you've internalized about what a good parent is that
you're supposed to not be awayfrom the baby, for example,
you're supposed to want to bewith the baby all the time. I
think, you know, some people,that's not an issue at all, I
hear the baby by people, they'relike, I'm not supposed to have
(26:09):
time away from the baby. And I'mnot supposed to enjoy time with
the baby. And so it's reallyhard for them to take a break.
And that more often I've seenwith women, but it just sort of
depends on what have you, whathave you heard about how you're
even supposed to feel aboutbeing a parent. And then that
can become, you can cause a lotof suffering, when people feel
(26:32):
differently when they're toldthey're supposed to feel and
internalize expectations aboutyou know, screens is a big one.
It starts early, especially withZoom. When I when I've done zoom
therapy with new parents, thebaby is with them, I always
(26:52):
encourage couples to bringbabies in as much as they want,
but certainly when they're thatyoung, and people saying oh, I
don't want the baby looking atthe screen. Because when it's
funny when babies see screens,they're just like the rest of
us, they kind of you know, soit's, um, it's it's really
interesting kinds of thingsthat, that come up about what
(27:16):
people have internalized as faras what what a quote unquote
good parents, as I keep saying,quote, unquote, because I think
unfortunately, we have reallyclear a clear sort of sense of
what a bad parent is like, likereally extreme things that, of
course, people can generallyavoid. But what makes a good
(27:36):
parent seems pretty abstract.
And it's so subject toinfluenced by family and other
cultural sources of information.
Well,
Paula (27:50):
you mentioned family, let's talk a little bit about
that. Because what what tends tohappen is the role of the
extended family changes andinvolvement of extended family
changes when there is a newbaby. And that can present some,
some challenges. I mean, it canbe great right to have, you
(28:11):
know, if nothing else, freechildcare, sometimes just, it
can make grandparents, let'ssay, it's just so happy, and you
can be happy to see them happy.
But there can also be situationswhere grandparents and that can
be, you know, for eitherpartner, it could be their
parents, or their partner'sparents who want to be overly
involved wants to be there morethan you want, or kind of
(28:37):
trespass over certainboundaries. So can you speak to
how couples can kind of navigateand just have the conversations
that prepare them for for thatpossibility?
Nikki (28:51):
Yeah. Yeah, I think that I'm thinking about conflict
style again. Of course,probably, that's where your
conflict style was developed waswith your family of origin,
parents and siblings. Andsometimes you can predict how
(29:11):
people are going to be onceyou've had a child, because
they're already kind of doingthat like wanting to come over
more than you want, or maybestaying longer. But sometimes
it's unclear how your parents inparticular, like the future
grandparents would, wouldbehave. Generally people don't
respond well, to hearing theirpartner criticize their family.
(29:33):
Some people it doesn't botherthem at all. They're like, Yeah,
I know. That's how they are. Butsome people it's like, oh, no,
you know, and then that can kindof set the couple to be sort of
feeling adversarial towards youtowards each other, which you
definitely don't want. Sotalking about okay, how, how can
we, together discuss things whenwe have a complaint about each
(29:56):
other's family? How can we bringthat up to you each other? And
how can you know that I valueyour family even if I have a
complaint about them? Or maybethat's even something to talk
about is like, how? How do yousee? How would you like your
family to be involved or not?
And because I think that's oftenwhy criticisms can feel so
(30:20):
threatening is that it soundslike you're saying you don't
want my family around. Oh, no,no, and then get reactive to
that, right?
Paula (30:28):
Well, that's why I want to have this conversation with
you. Because these are theconversations I want couples to
have. Now, before they havekids. And before somebody's
mother is standing right there,and you wish they would leave
like, well, how are we going toprepare, so that, you know, I
(30:49):
value your family, but I alsovalue let's say, the boundaries
that we have about our home, orthe rules that we might come up
with, for our child. And whenwe're talking about a baby,
we're not talking about rules,per se. But we have things that
(31:10):
we want to do maybe ways we wantto be them? How then would you
coach a couple to have thatconversation? I guess one in
advance. mean, you know, whenit's down the line, we'll circle
back to that, but they're goingto have that conversation in
(31:30):
advance about how to navigatekind of these issues with each
other's families. How would youcoach them through that?
Nikki (31:38):
Well, I think one one thing is from, and this is
Emotionally Focused Therapy, butit is also assuming we as
adults, just like children, weneed trusted people, not that
many, but just a few trustedpeople that we feel have our
(32:01):
back, that we can trust that ifwe're are in trouble, we can
call them and they'll come andthey'll respond to us. And so
from a an attachmentperspective, our partner would
be one of those people, thatmight sound obvious, but that
your partner should be like yourperson who's your ride or die,
they have your back. So it is abit of a value, I openly own
(32:25):
that value as a therapist, likethis is part of what we're
trying to establish here. And Ithink that when partners feel
like this person and I we haveeach other's back, if there's
anything that threatens thatfeeling, we have to deal with
that, first, we are a team,we're each other's person, we're
each other's priority, then itbecomes much easier to talk
(32:51):
about the other attachmentrelationships, which are usually
family, parents, siblings, etc.
Because those people matter,too. But if we're not a team,
and we feel at odds, it's reallyhard to talk about how to
negotiate these other boundarieswe want to have. And then I
think the other thing that Iwould coach people on is, if you
(33:13):
already have a sense, like howdo you see your family, in terms
of involvement in your life?
What kind of time do you want tospend? We certainly could talk
about that. The coaching isfocusing on how do you raise a
complaint about someone yourpartner loves is near and dear
to them in a way that respectsthat relationship. And in a way
(33:37):
that gives very generous benefitof the doubt to the family that
you might have a complaintabout? Like I'm assuming the
absolute best about, let's sayyour mother, my mother. And I'm
wondering what's going on?
Because I said to her many timesdon't come over without calling.
Let's say this? Yes. And shecontinues to come over without
(34:00):
calling. I wonder what'shappening there. What do you
think? How can we talk aboutthat? Do you can I talk to her
about it? Do you want to talk toher about it? We talked to her
about it together, but a verygentle way of bringing up a
complaint again, with thisgenerosity in mind. And
Paula (34:22):
also a think If couples are having these conversations
in advance, and kind of saying,okay, when we have children, how
do we want our families to beinvolved? And, and what what are
our boundaries? And if you'vetalked about certain things
(34:45):
before you're in it, you're lessemotionally kind of worked up
about it. So I think that's whatthat's what I'm always trying to
get to is like how can weencourage couples to have these
conversations proactively nowthat doesn't mean mean, you
could come to an agreement? Yes,we're gonna ask my mother to
call first because she's gonnabe very excited. And she's gonna
(35:08):
want to stop by on the way home.
You could have that conversationand make that agreement and then
two years from now, when ithappens, maybe you maybe forget
that you set that boundary, ormaybe that boundary that you set
is now harder to enforce. But atleast if you've had the
conversation, I feel like eachpartner knows where the other
(35:31):
one stands. And you can startkind of that negotiation before
you're emotionally worked up.
Nikki (35:39):
Absolutely. No. Planned uncertainty, planned
uncertainty, you know, like, Iassume, I don't really know how
exactly I'm gonna feel. But hereare some of the common ways that
people deal with this. And sothat when it happens, it's like,
hopefully it sparks Oh, yeah. Wewe were told this might happen.
(36:02):
It's happening. Oh, right. Youknow, and there's a couple of
skills that you already havethat you can pull from.
Paula (36:08):
Right. Right. Right.
Well, kind of related to family,but a little bit different. It's
kind of the subjects of cultureand religion. And, you know,
that's another one, I think thatthat comes up as an issue,
because what seems what'shappening now is that couples,
just people in general, are notas affiliated with traditional
religion as they once were. Andso maybe as a couple, you don't
(36:34):
have a religious practice, youdon't participate in any type of
religious activities. Butoftentimes, people want to have
their children at least gothrough some of the rites of
passage for that religion, whichis something to talk about,
particularly a couples ofdifferent faiths. Because you,
if neither one of the partnersis practicing their faith, and
(36:59):
then all of a sudden, it's like,oh, I want to have our baby
baptized. What do you youhaven't been a church? And in
the whole time I've known you.
So how was that one? How do youfind that one to navigate? I'm
thinking that's another one thatbenefits from Bill's very
proactive conversations. Yes.
Nikki (37:19):
That makes me think of another thing I forgot to
mention, which I think it's inline. But it's, I think,
proactively developing plans. Ifyou don't already have one for
community, not just family, butcommunity. Because we cannot
parent alone. It's very hard.
And when I say alone, I meanalone with your partner. I think
(37:43):
you have a an idea of family andour culture that puts people on
an island with just theirpartner and their kid, and you
actually need a community.
Paula (37:58):
It takes a village. It takes a village man. And it
really does when you have kids,you you'll know it does take
more than just the two of you.
That's why when I literally wasI'm from Chicago, but I was
living in New York when I had mykids. And when I had my second
baby, I was in the hospital roomfilling out mortgage papers for
(38:19):
a house in Chicago, because whenthe second baby arrived, I said
I gotta get back to Chicago,I've got to be where I have my
family where I have, where Ihave my village where I have my
community, and my husband wasalso he had also lived in
Chicago. So he had people hereas well.
Nikki (38:40):
Yeah, yeah, that's a great example. Like this is a
priority. And so it made methink of that, because religious
communities can often be one ofthe one of the communities that
people have for their family.
But, you know, obviously,religion is very emotional for
people. That's a good example,the baptism thing. It's like, I
(39:02):
like I may not be practicinganymore, but I internalized this
idea that the baby's notbaptized. Go to hell isn't a
heaven and that sounds mayberidiculous on some level where I
am given where I am, but I justdon't want to do it. So like
having some discussion about howhow the values play in from
(39:26):
religion that we want to sharewith our with our child and how
would we want to share thosethere room for us to be
interfaith and, and start tothink through? Well, what did
this really mean to me when Iwas younger? What rituals for
example, in terms of likeholidays, and how do we see our
(39:47):
family celebrating differentparts of the year and what did
those things mean to us? Whatare we really hoping our child
will learn and To really thinkthinking through what that means
for the enrichment of our familylife, and the child's learning
values and what's important,what
Paula (40:12):
think that's particularly, you know, we think
of it as being particularly anissue for interfaith couples.
But I have, I haven't seen thisterm anywhere. So I don't know
if I've coined it but intrafaith among couples. And what I
mean by that is just because youare of the same religious
background, doesn't mean youhave the same views on how to
(40:35):
participate in your religion.
And it doesn't mean that youhave the same views on how you
want your your potential childto be raised in that religion.
And so I just want to cautioncouples have the same faith
don't think that theseconversations are just for
couples of different faithbackgrounds, or different
cultural backgrounds. Hmm,
Nikki (40:56):
yeah, that's a really good point. Well, before
Paula (40:59):
we wrap up, there's one other thing I want to get to,
and people will really think I'mtrying to be proactive with this
one. But the issue is childcare.
Okay. And I'm not saying thatyou is three years away from
wanting to have kids, I'm notsaying you should be going out
and looking at daycare centers.
What I'm suggesting here is thatcouples have conversations about
(41:26):
what childcare looks like forthem. And that's something while
I'll let you speak to that, butI just, I think it has so many
implications, childcare isrelated to professional choices,
choices around where you live,then there's all the emotional
considerations, and eventhinking about how you were
(41:47):
raised and how you may want yourchild to be cared for. Or not.
Nikki (41:53):
Yeah, I agree. I'm thinking and thinking about
learning from, I guess, pitfallsand communication about what
what one should talk aboutproactively, or at least like we
said, the plant uncertainty likethink about, think about this,
even if you're not sure how youfeel about it yet. One of the
things that people may not beaware of that they should think
(42:17):
about is how much do differentoptions cost? I'm assuming that
it's going to be something youhave to pay for. Because what
one of the pitfalls I've seen ispeople don't necessarily look it
up or do research. And then thebaby's here, and one person's
(42:37):
like, wait, I know, we talkedabout sending our child to this
daycare center, but I don't wantto send our childhood daycare
center, I want someone to comeinto our home and watch the
baby. And there's a big costdifference between those things.
And then the one partnerstressed about money and the
other person stressed about whatkind of care their child's gonna
get. So I think like, inaddition to what you're saying,
(42:59):
like, how do we feel about adaycare center? And what does
that look like in terms of ratioof caregiver to child versus
some someone that comes into ourhome? There are stresses with
that, that have to do withpersonality. Now you're
somebody's employer, like thingslike that to think, what would
(43:21):
that be like for us to employsomeone and pay them and give
them paid time off when they'renot watching our child or sick
days? And the stress of if theyare sick? What are we going to
do and weighing the pros andcons, which again, like you
said, it may seem like it's,it's early, and it's so
hypothetical, but those arepretty predictable stressors
(43:43):
that might be good to just plantthe seed like, Okay, what's our
budget? What do we what do weenvision here, or sometimes
people have a baby, and theyrealize that they don't want to
go back to work because theywant to be the person, right
care of their child. And, andthat's, you know, that can
(44:03):
happen, no matter what yourgender identity is, that
somebody might say, hey, youknow what I want to stay home.
So thinking through thefinancial part,
Paula (44:15):
if you have the conversations and think about it
in advance, maybe you start tokind of mold your career path,
to be more accommodating tohaving a child, it could be over
a course of several years,right? Maybe you want to get to
a certain company that you feelhas more family friendly
policies? Well, you know, it maytake some time to be able to get
(44:38):
a job at that company. And so ifyou're thinking about it in
advance and thinking, Okay, I dowant to provide care for my
child at least part time. Well,now I've got to find a work
situation that accommodatesthat, and that could be a one or
two year process.
Nikki (44:56):
Mm hmm. Yeah, I think we're at Think what we're saying
here is this the intentionalitybehind these decisions that
everything can be intentional.
Even if it seems like so far offin the future. It reminds me of,
actually, this is another thingthat people do need to think
about and they start to havechildren is estate planning. All
these conversations of what doyou think you would want? If
(45:21):
this happened? Or what do youthink? Who do you think you'd
want your state to go to? Or whowould make the right decisions
for you who's
Paula (45:30):
going to care for your child is something to care for
our child?
Nikki (45:34):
Yeah, something happens to both of us simultaneously,
like these, these things thatare that can be hard to think
about. But make it so mucheasier if you've planted the
seed, right? This is an okaything for us to talk about. And
I can handle it, and you canhandle it. But
Paula (45:51):
I think ultimately, what what we want for couples, I know
we share this is that thetransition is as smooth as
possible is not going to besmooth. Because having a baby is
just life up ending. It's stilllife up ending and you know, I
have teenagers. So having kidsnot just having a baby, we'll
(46:12):
just say having kids is is itchanges things. But if you've
had those conversations inadvance, you're going to be
better off than having to dealwith things and they've never
come up.
Nikki (46:26):
Yeah, absolutely. Okay.
Well, I
Paula (46:29):
think that's a good place for us to wrap it up. We've
given couples so many things tothink of, and there's more, you
know, there's more issues totalk about. But I will leave
them with this for now. And theycan start having these
conversations and maybe we'llcircle back and and given them a
few more things to talk about.
Yeah. Well, thank you, Nikki,really for joining us and for
(46:50):
sharing your perspective onthis. As I said, this is an area
of specialty for you. So I'mglad we can have you on. Yes,
Nikki (46:57):
thanks for having me.
Paula (47:08):
To learn more about Nikki's work, you can visit her
website, Nikki lively.com. Or goto her page on the family
Institute's website, where youcan find a library of great
resources. Check the show notesfor all the links.
(47:33):
Thanks for joining us this week.
If you like what you hear,subscribe to practically marry
wherever you get your podcasts.
You can also follow the show onInstagram at get practically
married and send us a DM if youand your partner want to come on
the show and talk to one of ourexperts. Please take a moment to
leave us a review and hopefullya five star rating. But the best
(47:57):
way to support the show would beto tell someone about it. Tell
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That's all for now. Have a goodone.
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