September 18, 2024 • 67 mins
Dr. David Lalman is a professor and Extension Beef Cattle Specialist at Oklahoma State University. Dr. Lalman holds the Harrington Endowed Chair with split extension and research appointment. He works primarily in the beef cattle industry focused on cow/calf and stocker cattle production. His extension and applied research program includes beef cattle nutrition and management with emphasis on beef cattle grazing and genetic by environment interactions in beef production systems. His program goals are to provide producers with information and decision tools to facilitate production system profitability, improve cow herd efficiency and to improve product quality. At Oklahoma State, Dr. Lalman serves as the Animal Science Extension Program Coordinator and the supervisor for the Range Cow Research Center.
Identifying-Forage-Efficient-Cows-Lalman-BIF-2024-1.pdf (beefimprovement.org)
david.lalman@okstate.edu
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Episode Transcript
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Microphone (Yeti Stereo (00:06):
Thanks for joining us for episode 61 of
practically ranching.
I'm your host, Matt Perrier.
As always the podcast issponsored by Dalebanks, Angus
Eureka, Kansas.
Your home for practicalprofitable genetics.
This was a really cooldiscussion with a guy who is a
bit of an individualist-- somemight even call him a rebel-- in
(00:30):
the research community and in myopinion, I think that's kind of
refreshing today.
Dr.
David Lalman got hisundergraduate degree at Kansas
state university.
He did his master's work atMontana state and received PhDs
and ruminant nutrition and beefreproduction from the university
(00:51):
of Missouri.
Today.
He is a professor and extensionbeef cattle specialist at
Oklahoma state.
He works primarily in the beefcattle industry, focused on cow
calf and stocker cattleproduction.
His extension and appliedresearch program include beef,
cattle, nutrition andmanagement, with emphasis on
beef cattle grazing, and geneticby environment interactions and
(01:13):
beef production systems.
It's program goals are toprovide producers with
information and decision toolsto facilitate production system
profitability, improve cowherdefficiency and improve product
quality.
At Oklahoma state Dr.
Lalman.
And serves as animal scienceextension program coordinator
and the supervisor for the rangecow research center.
(01:36):
Over the past few years, he'sbeen doing several research
projects relative to forageutilization of beef cattle, as
well as their feed intake andassociated outputs in terms of
milk and weaning weight andweight gain.
And our family and ranch hasbeen very interested in this
work.
Uh, we've even supplied some ofthe genetics for the program
(01:57):
over the past several years.
If you have ever experiencedissues with thinner or harder
breeding cows than you thoughtyou used to see, or calf weaning
weights that don't seem to keeppace with their sires increasing
EPDs...
I think this discussion is goingto be pretty interesting.
(02:18):
We mainly talked about, uh, Dr.
Lalman's research on forageutilization.
But if you stick around to theend of the discussion, he drops
a couple of really interesting,possibly contrary, observations
that may dispel some of theseage old beliefs that smaller
cows are more efficient andlower milking cows are more
(02:39):
efficient.
So stick around, let us knowwhat you think about this
conversation.
And thanks as always for joiningus this week to hear from Dr.
Dave Lalman.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (02:50):
Tell us a little bit about this
forage efficiency project thatyou've been working on and um,,
what you've been up to with that
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29- (02:59):
Yeah, sure.
over time, we've kind of finetuned the characterization of
our research project to forageuse efficiency, because if we
just talk about cow efficiency,while, you know, I, I think our
work falls under that umbrella,cow efficiency includes a, a lot
of difference.
things and pretty, pretty deepwater as I heard some of my
(03:23):
colleagues describe it at times.
And that's, that is definitelytrue, uh, but there aren't too
many groups in the countryworking on forage utilization
efficiency.
And so, you know, that, that'swhy we have chosen to focus on
(03:43):
that area because it's just not,um, a lot of people doing that.
And You know, Matt, the cow herduses about 74 percent of the
feed energy needed to produceone pound of carcass weight.
And so it's kind of a surprisewhen people learn that a lot of
the, you know, there's not a lotmore feed energy used post
(04:08):
weaning.
Uh, but the truth is, is thatthe cow calf segment of the
industry uses by far and awaythe majority of the feed energy.
And of course our cows, I, Itell people that our cows in
Oklahoma here wind up with abouttwo months of good quality
forage and 10 months of marginalto low quality forage.
And that's not true in all partsof Oklahoma.
(04:31):
Uh, but it is.
it is for a good bit of it.
So that's kind of the generalidea and, and kind of where, you
know, what we've been workingat.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (04:42):
So three fourths of the energy
required to make a pound ofcarcass weight is required from
weaning forward., I guessweaning back, if you're going
chronologically, but uh, from,from breeding to weaning time
for that calf.
And yet, nearly every singleproject and every single
(05:04):
conversation that we hear aboutfeed efficiency, it's always at
a feed yard level.
Why is that?
Is it just because it's a lowhanging fruit, or why is that?
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29- (05:14):
yeah, I, I think, uh, depend on how
you, how you define low hangingfruit.
Uh,
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (05:20):
Lower, I
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2024 (05:21):
I mean, I mean, honestly, it's, it
was a good place to start andit's not that difficult today to
measure.
We still don't know how tomeasure forage intake.
in a, in a pasture.
But we do know how to do it onan animal in a pen.
(05:41):
And so that's why we startedthere, because the industry
developed these tools twentyfive, maybe getting close to
thirty years ago now, to measureindividual animal intake in a
pen.
And so I think that's the answerto your question is, uh, that,
that's where we started becausethat's what we could measure.
(06:02):
And, yeah, you could measureforage intake in a cow herd,
but, uh, gosh, the, uh, our workis with long stem, dry,
unprocessed hay.
And, uh, We would rather bedoing this work in the pasture,
but we don't know how to do thatyet.
And so, this was, we thought, asclose as we could get, and, and,
(06:27):
you know, over time we'll beable to try to, try to validate
the data to see if we get thesame ranking of animals out in
the pasture compared to theanswer we get in the pen feeding
nothing but dry long stem hayand mineral.
But a lot, a lot of the, therehave been a lot of forage
efficiency papers published,Matt, but they've, they all are
(06:52):
processed forage, you know,that's been ground or chopped.
It's generally some type ofsilage.
It's wet and relative high inenergy.
In other words, harvested aroundthe boot stage, maybe even prior
to, or just a little after.
It's not very mature forage.
And many times it's got aconcentrate component.
(07:12):
Well.
You know, uh, well aired cornsilage is 50 percent corn grain
on a dry matter basis for cryingout loud, and some of the, uh,
some of the forage efficiencypapers published are with corn
silage and alfalfa haylage.
And, you know, I guess my pointis our cows just don't see that
(07:33):
kind of a diet for, for verylong.
Yes, a month or two out of theyear would be similar, but
beyond that, yeah, not, not toomuch.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (07:42):
So give us the nuts and bolts of
how you're doing it.
What kind of logistics, uh,where those cows are, how
they're being fed, how you'remeasuring, uh, are they getting
any concentrate?
I mean, it sounds to me likeyou're trying to mimic what I
would call a practical, basicform of, of running a set of
(08:06):
cows out on pasture where when,at the right time of the year,
all of their nutrition is comingfrom mother nature off of the
ground, i.
e.
grass.
At a few times of the year, theymay be getting some supplemental
protein, possibly even somedelivered hay or other energy
sources, but you're trying tomimic what most of us are out
here doing 12 months of the yearof those cows and yet still
(08:29):
measure every bite that theyconsume.
How are you doing?
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2 (08:33):
mean that's the idea.
Um, some would argue that Youknow, the system we've come up
with is, is not ideal, but, uh,I, I would challenge those,
those that, that make thosecomments to, you know, would
just, just show us how we coulddo it and get closer to that,
you know, real world, uh,scenario.
(08:54):
The, I guess the first thing tosay would be that, uh, we are
testing and generally thesetesting periods, uh, are about
90 to 95 days, okay, eachperiod.
Uh, we have a, uh, trying to usea minimum of 21 days to allow
the animals to adapt to thepens, the individual intake
(09:17):
feeding system that we havedeveloped, or, or developed in
collaboration with, uh, company.
And then, uh, we start off,weigh the animals, uh, a couple
of times, two days in a row, sothat we know, you know, very
close to what their startingweight was, and then we test
those animals for 70 to 75 daysafter the adaptation period.
(09:40):
And again, uh, our diet so farhas been, uh, long stem, dry
Bermuda grass hay.
And we're using Bermuda grassbecause we can harvest Bermuda
grass high enough proteinconcentration so that we don't
have to feed a concentratesupplement or a concentrated,
you know, oilseed meal, cottonseed meal or soybean meal or
(10:02):
something like that.
And so, so far the cattle havegotten straight hay and mineral.
And that has been their diet.
We are testing replacementheifers a few weeks after
weaning.
So they're in there for about 90days.
And then we pull the heifersout, kind of clean the pens up
(10:24):
again and start over with a setof lactating fall calving cows.
Uh, and they go in the pens whenthey're lactating four year old,
so this would be their thirdcalf.
Uh, and then we test them forabout 90 days, the same 90 day
period.
We, we pull those calves off ofthem, wean the calves, let the
(10:47):
cows dry up for a few weeks, andthen pull them back into the
pens and go right back into agestation period study for
another 90 days.
And so the idea is that.
By the time we're finished here,doing this over several years,
each, each contemporary groupwill have a, uh, heifer phase,
(11:07):
uh, set of data.
lactation phase intake andperformance data and gestation
phase intake and performancedata.
And, you know, the, the firststep we thought we ought to try
to solve is whether or not it'srepeatable, uh, among those
stages.
There's no point in spending alot of effort and and, uh,
(11:30):
expense testing heifers if itdoesn't relate to a lactating
cow.
Right?
And so we thought that we'dbetter make sure that, that it
does follow through and so farit seems like it does.
And there's been recentpublications to sort of back
that up and say, yeah, we can,we can probably get the
information we need to findforage efficient cattle by
(11:54):
testing the heifers on a, on aforage diet.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (11:58):
And how are you measuring the
intakes on those individuals?
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-202 (12:02):
So we have, uh, we are working
with, uh, C-Lock Incorporatedwith their, um, individual
intake, uh, technology.
Uh, it, it's much, if you'refamiliar with the GrowSafe
system, it's a, it's a feed,feed intake bunk similar to
that.
You know, the system uses, uh,uh, frequency identification
(12:25):
tags.
When the animal puts their headin the feeder, the RFID reader
time stamps the data to indicatethat animal, you know, the time,
the date, uh, that that animalapproached the feeder.
And then when they back out, ittime stamps it again.
And then of course these unitshave load cells on either side.
(12:47):
of the little feed bunk and thedifference in weight from the
time the animal put their headinto the feeder and the time
they put their, pulled theirhead out of the feeder is what
it, what it measures as theirfeed intake for that, uh, eating
event.
And so You know, that's thebasic technology.
Now we had to modify the feeder.
(13:08):
We bought the largest bunkstainless steel bunk C-Lock had
available.
So they're large units becausewe knew we were going to be
feeding long stem dry hay.
And, you know, if you try to putvery much long stem hay in one
of those smaller bunks that,that can accommodate a
(13:29):
concentrate diet, which ofcourse is dense, packed, it's
usually wet.
You can get a lot of pounds downinside that bunk and may only
have to feed once a day.
I think a lot of people who dothe feed efficiency work do only
have to feed once a day.
But, uh, the, uh, the densityis, as you would know, is of
hay.
(13:49):
is not, is, is pretty low.
And so you would wind up havingto feed three, four, five times
a day in order, otherwise youput a lot of hay in those bunks
and the cows are just going toroot it out and shove it out
into the feed alley.
So we built, we, we built, weused, purchased the largest
bunks and then we built a basketto install on top of the bunk.
(14:13):
if the basket looks a little bitlike a horse stall hay feeder.
So it's kind of angled and youdrop, we drop the hay in, uh, in
the top of the basket, whichagain is resting on top of this
C lock bump, bunk.
The angled part of the horsestall hay feeder is actually a
swinging gate.
(14:35):
So we can set it to where thebottom of that of that angled
gate is wider so there's alittle bit of an opening at the
bottom and more hay can dropdown into the C-Lock bunk unit
or we can pull it up tight sothat the animals have to reach
up and pull the hay out of thattop angled portion like you see
(14:58):
in a horse stall.
and the idea was to, you know,force the animals to pull the
hay through the bars.
of, of that feeder in front oftheir face and above them, and
then anything that was droppedfrom their mouth or pulled out
and just, you know, normallywould, would hit the pen surface
outside of the feeder.
(15:19):
Well, that adds to yourexperimental, uh, error.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (15:23):
Loss.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2 (15:24):
And, and so, Now, the way we have
this designed, the hay thatdrops from their mouth drops in
the bottom of the feeder and,you know, it does not, it
reduces our error substantially.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (15:38):
And how many cows or heifers, uh,
lactating cows as opposed togestating cows can you test at
one given time?
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29- (15:47):
Yeah, so that's another interesting
part of our research program.
We've discovered and makes itmore challenging because we have
to use a low stocking rate onthese feed intake units.
A lot of the folks doing Youknow, the wet, more dense,
concentrated, concentrated typediets are stocking those
(16:11):
somewhere between six to eightanimals per unit, per feed
intake unit.
We have, we stock ours at aboutthree to three and a half.
animals per intake unit becausea cow consuming forage wants to
spend a lot more time, needs tospend a lot more time chewing,
you know, masticating, uh, thatforage and it just takes more
(16:34):
time to consume a certain unitof weight.
And so they want to spend fourto four and a half hours a day
in their eating.
And so therefore, let's say ifyou had six animals six cows per
feeder and each cow wanted tospend four hours in that feeder,
that feeder should be full 24 7,right?
(16:56):
24 hours a day.
Well, that means you'reradically modifying some of
those animals behavior andforcing them to eat through the
middle of the night.
And so, that's why we backed itway off to three and a half
because we want it to be morepractical and, and, you know,
let those cows sleep through thenight, if that's what they
(17:16):
choose to do, uh, becausethey've had adequate access
throughout the early morning,middle of the day and late in
the evening to consume all theforage they wanted to consume.
so we have 15 of these unitsand, and so at three to three
and a half, you know, we're,we're somewhere in the
neighborhood of, yeah, 50 plusor minus.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (17:36):
So, pretty, I mean, a pretty good
jag.
I mean, it's, I didn't wantfolks thinking, well, they're
just doing six cows orsomething.
Uh, and you've, you know, Ofcourse, this goes without saying
to anybody that's done anygenetic research projects, but
these are known origin, knownpedigreed cows that, um, for the
(17:56):
most part, you can go bothbackwards and forwards as they
have calves entering the herd,uh, but you know who these are
and you can make some of thosegenetic ties not to get too far
ahead of the logistics, but, um,these aren't just, run of the
mill commercial cows that you'rejust curious about.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29- (18:14):
Yeah, no, I mean, we have pretty good
records on these cattle for, Imean, you know, we've raised all
of these cattle on, on the, at,at the research station there.
And so, yeah, we do havepedigree information.
We have genomic data on all ofthese cattle.
So, yeah, absolutely.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (18:31):
So on the intake side, I think we've
gone through that from aproduction standpoint on the
output.
Um, what all are you measuringthere?
Obviously weight gain and bodycondition score and things like
that on the cows.
Milk, pounds of calf, etc, etc.
What are you collecting?
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29- (18:50):
Yeah, so during the lactating phase,
we do milk these cows aboutevery three, once every three
weeks.
Um, and you know, of coursethere we also take a sample and
have it analyzed for, uh,protein, fat, lactose, uh, and
then of course, you know, we getother values as well.
with that, but, uh, so milkcomponents, milk yield, that
(19:15):
allows us to calculate totalmilk energy, uh, and then we try
to do several things to estimatebody composition.
Uh, the main thing would beultrasound.
data at the beginning of eachperiod and at the end of each of
these 70 day tests, 70 75 daytest periods.
And then we also do the samewith body condition scores.
(19:37):
We actually find that ratherthan ultrasound on a cow that's
not extremely fleshy, the bodycondition score system works a
little better.
Because you know, an ultrasoundon a cow that's, say, a body
condition score of 4, shedoesn't have much back fat.
And it's really difficult todistinguish between, you know,
(19:57):
if she might've doubled her backfat and still have almost no
back fat.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (20:01):
Sure.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-202 (20:02):
So it's just, it's just not
sensitive enough a system topick up substantial difference.
But when we use body conditionscore, actually, the data makes,
kind of makes sense.
we can document body conditionscore change and look back and
see if their body conditioninfluences feed intake, and it
does.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (20:24):
Yeah, I think.
I think so many of those thingsas we start trying to measure
and quantify and characterize,especially with some of the, I
hate to say it, but moreproduction oriented or
performance oriented measures,um, They may not get at,
especially if they weredeveloped for feed yard cattle,
they may not get at what it isthat we truly need on the cow
(20:47):
side of things.
Uh, to measure what it is thatshe is doing, uh, can do, needs
to do, and, and then figure outis she getting enough to
actually get it done.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29- (20:58):
Yeah, yeah, our, our challenge is
going to be figuring out a wayto expand this work, you know,
in other words, identify cattlethat are real for efficient
forage users without having togo through one of these labor
intensive feed intake teststhat, that we're conducting now
that, that is our real challengein the future, but I mean, we
(21:20):
have learned a lot and it's, youknow, to me, it's, it's very
exciting.
the amount of variation we seein each contemporary group.
The, you know, the, we call themthe wonderfully terrible cows
that we find and the, and theamazing rock star cows that we
find.
Matt, we have found little cowsthat come in, you know, good
(21:42):
fleshing cows but they eat alot.
And we've found big cows thatdon't really eat very much and
are able to maintain their bodycondition.
Now in general, if we're talkingjust about cow size, sure, as
cows get bigger in general, youknow, our data lines up with
everybody else's and that isthat bigger cows eat more feed.
(22:04):
But, it's, it's not always true.
There's a substantial amount ofvariation there.
And just, just from a forage useefficiency standpoint and your
comment about measuring thingsthat are, you know, more related
to post weaning productionrather than the cow calf segment
of the industry.
I mean, we've got just this lastwinter, my current master
(22:29):
student did a really neat study.
I mean, just what we describedwith lactating.
period first, followed bygestation.
And he's got one cow in thatdata set that ate five or six
more pounds more than she shouldhave based on her productivity.
As I recall, she was, she wassupposed to, should have eaten
(22:52):
33 pounds.
She was consuming 38 on average.
So she was a big eater.
She, she was not a very big cow.
She did not give very much milk.
And she was losing weight.
And eating, eating more thanshe, than the group average,
okay?
(23:13):
So I don't, I don't know howmany more things you could do
wrong.
But she's one of thosewonderfully terrible cows.
You really couldn't tell bylooking at her.
And then in the samecontemporary group, he has
another cow that, uh, yeah,she's about a group average in,
in mature body weight.
(23:34):
Uh, but she is, let's see, sheshould have been consuming about
20 or 33 pounds.
And she was actually onlyconsuming throughout the entire
study average.
twenty eight pounds a day, andvery consistently consuming less
forage than all the rest of thecows in the group, or the
average of the group.
(23:55):
Uh, this cow is producing a lotof milk.
She is gaining weight.
Now think about that.
She's producing a lot of milkand gaining weight at the same
time, yet eating less thanaverage.
How much better could it get?
What more could you want?
Uh, I mean, if we add fertilityto that, I mean, you've got a,
(24:19):
you've got a cow that, uh, youknow, is what I would call an
efficient forage utilizer.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (24:26):
So any of my geneticists and animal
breeders that are listening tothis, the first place they're
going now is, What's theheritability of that?
And have we done it long enoughto know that if I select for
that cow who eats less producesmore milk, calf gains more
(24:49):
weight, she stays in good bodycondition, gains weight herself,
you know, she's going to be aupstanding citizen for me as
long as she's on the feed bill.
But will her replacementdaughters be.
exceptional.
Have you done it long enough toknow that or do we have any
inclination of what theheritability is here?
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-20 (25:08):
So, there, there's a really nice
data set, um, published in, as Irecall, 2020 in the Journal of
Animal Science.
And it was the Meat AnimalResearch Center Group, Dr.
Harvey Freetley is the, uh,primary author, lead author on
that paper.
And they looked at, I believethey, um, recorded data on about
(25:30):
600, 600 plus, uh, as weanedheifer calves, measuring feed
intake and weight gain, uh,during the, you know,
replacement heifer developmentperiod, and then using the same
diet, basically very close tothe same diet, as a five year
old.
(25:50):
Now their cows were not pregnantand they were not lactating,
they were open and dry, but theytested them again as 5 year
olds.
The genetic correlation for feedintake and gain for that larger
group of cattle, you know, nicedata set with 600 plus
experimental units, uh, thegenetic correlations I could
(26:13):
pull them up here for us, butthey're high, they're really
good.
And so that's what gives meconfidence that.
You know, if you can, you cantest a heifer, uh, the, uh, you
know, you're, you're going tofind females that will make
efficient cows.
Okay.
So here, I've got it pulled uphere, Matt, the, the, uh,
genetic correlation for averagedry matter intake, heifer to
(26:37):
five year old cow 0.
84.
I mean, that's awesome.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (26:42):
And that's heifer1234 was tested
again five years later andcow1234,
squadcaster-2f13_3_08- (26:50):
Exactly.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (26:51):
okay, had that high of a correlation.
But we don't have data yet ondaughters of cow1234 and are
they exceptional if she was aswell?
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-20 (27:02):
Not that I know of.
Not that I know of.
The average day of the gaingenetic correlation there is
0.73,
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (27:09):
Okay.
So yeah, pretty significant.
Okay.
So what about, I told myself Iwasn't going to get in the weeds
yet, but I'm a seed stock guy.
And so I'm already getting inthe weeds.
What about correlations betweenwhat I would call a typical bunk
fed, higher concentrate feedefficiency on a set of heifers.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-2 (27:31):
Mm-Hmm.
matt_3_08-29-2024_1 (27:33):
correlation positive or negative that it may
be, um, to your data.
So if, if heifers were fed aconcentrate, or I think
sometimes you call it a mixedration and developed on a, what
I'd call a moderate plane ofnutrition as yearlings, is there
(27:54):
any or much correlation betweenthat and that cow who's eaten
nothing but long stem dry hay?
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29- (28:03):
Well.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (28:04):
And her in, their intakes and, and
efficiencies.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08- (28:08):
probably need more work on that question.
There is one French paperpublished that does a reasonable
job looking at that question.
I have, have a little troublewith that data set and we won't
get into the weeds why.
Uh, but there all they measuredwas, was feed intake, the
(28:30):
genetic correlation for feedintake, uh, between hay and corn
silage.
They basically tested those two,we'll call it environments, and
they had a high geneticcorrelation.
Again, I'm a little bitskeptical about that data set.
So that's where we started.
That question is where westarted in our, our research
(28:52):
program, our quest to findforage efficient cattle.
We thought the first thing weneeded to ask was exactly that.
Does ranking animals on a, oneof these diets that you can fit
down in one of those.
smaller bunks, you know, inother words, processed, wet,
higher energy, some concentrate.
(29:13):
Uh, most of these studies thathave been done with those, I'll
call them, as you mentioned,mixed diets would be somewhere
in the neighborhood of maybearound 50 percent roughage and
50 percent concentrate, give ortake, okay?
Um, and so we found, uh, seven,we found three experiments
published in the paper.
(29:34):
Addressing your question.
And then we conduct, we'veconducted four experiments of
our own.
Where we fed animals a mixeddiet, like the one I just
described.
For that, uh, I don't know, it'sranged from about maybe a total
of 60 to 90 days.
And then we've fed the sameanimals, uh, uh, food.
(29:55):
strict forage diet for about 90days, uh, 60 to 90 days.
And, and so, so far sevenexperiments.
The correlation for feed intakebetween the two environments, or
the two diets, uh, is has beenmoderate and positive.
Okay?
Now, remember, these are, theseare smaller studies.
(30:18):
These would be anywhere frommaybe, maybe a hundred animals
down to about fifty, fiftyanimals or so, and so we don't
have a genetic correlation.
What we have is a phenotypiccorrelation.
Uh, but the, those correlationsare in the range of 4 to maybe
7.
Okay?
But at least they're positive.
(30:40):
Yeah, and, and, uh, and adecent, generally speaking, the
genetic correlation is going tobe higher than that.
But every, every one of thesestudies, all seven of them, uh,
that correlation has been, uh,positive.
The, our, in, uh, two of ourfour studies, we did it with
cows.
We fed forage for a period andthe mixed diet for a period.
(31:03):
Half the cows started on themixed diet, half started on
forage, the other half startedon Well, we did just the
opposite.
Does that make sense?
So that, so you could sort oftake out the question about
compensatory gain.
Um, and so that's why we didthose that way.
Got, got the exact same answer.
The, the odd part, the thingthat people have maybe a little
(31:27):
trouble with is maybe raise,raise an eyebrow.
Is it the correlation for weightgain in those two environments
or those two diets?
is not related.
Okay, there is no correlation.
Uh, in, in fact, two of thestudies, two of the seven
studies have a negativecorrelation, but the rest of
(31:49):
them, there's no significantcorrelation whatsoever.
Okay.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (31:58):
from podcaster.
Um, and anecdotally, justobserving, um, cattle that we've
raised, genetic, biologicaltypes that I've seen used
throughout the decades.
While there may not be asignificant, um, well, let me go
(32:23):
the other way.
While there may be somecorrelation on intakes, I do
think, again, just from myobservation, not from a
scientific standpoint, I dobelieve that there are cattle
who can, um, Add body conditionin terms of a cow's add fat and
(32:46):
flesh in terms of feedlot steersor heifers when fed a
concentrated diet but when theyhave to get out and work and
walk and move and I don't knowif it is They expend too much
energy doing all the stuff Or ifit is a distance thing due to
structure, feet, whatever thecase may be.
(33:06):
But there seem to me to be linesof cattle that may not eat
anymore in one environment orthe other, but cannot keep
themselves bred, cetera, etcetera, when you get them out on
10 to 15 to 100 acres of, ofgrass.
And that's where I think thatyour productivity standpoint,
and let's admit that, Yourresearch, as exciting as it is
(33:33):
to me, that this is one of thefirst times that we're seeing a
project that is measuringintakes of nothing but dry
forage, hay, Admittedly, thosecows are not in big pastures.
They have to be.
By nature of the beast, they'rein pens.
And so, we may not find thoseeither.
(33:54):
But hopefully, we get a littlecloser to the types that can use
the bugs that God gave them inthe rumen to break those down
and not just have a highconcentrate diet.
But I do think, I think it'sworth that, saying what you said
and, and, uh, yeah, some mayraise eyebrows and say that
doesn't make any sense, but Ithink there's probably practical
(34:16):
explanations for why that is,why those, some of those cattle
may not eat anymore.
Um, but stay in better fleshwhen they're in a feed yard kind
of environment.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29- (34:25):
Yeah, yeah, I, you know, the, the idea
that there's no relationshipbetween forage gain and
concentrate or mixed diet gain,I mean, that's exciting to
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (34:38):
Mm hmm.
Sure.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-20 (34:39):
if, so if there's no relationship,
there's, in all these biologicalmeasurements, there's a bell
curve.
And the idea that it's lined up,the middle of the, the peak of
the bell curve is lined up withzero, suggests that there are
cattle up to the left of zerothat can do neither very well.
(35:01):
There are cattle in the middle,you know, probably about 60
percent of the range, maybe 65percent of the range that are
good at one but not very good atthe other, you know, environment
or diet.
And then there are cattle on theright of the bell curve.
that are good at both.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (35:20):
Right.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-20 (35:21):
and that's the exciting part.
I mean, there, there are cattleout there and we, we see that,
that do well in bothenvironments.
And those are the ones we needto find.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (35:35):
So.
two questions as we try to applywhat it is that that you all are
finding and researching andcontinuing to reply to refine.
Looking down the road, what dowe, what do you hope to have in
terms of tools if the datacontinues to line up, if you
(35:57):
continue to see some of thesecorrelations between traits and
we can finally select for forageutilization efficiency, whether
it be in cows or stockers out ongrass, Flint Hills grass, wheat
pasture in Western Oklahoma,whatever the case may be.
If we can find and select forcattle that are more efficient
(36:17):
on forage, what's that tool looklike?
What's the ideal?
I assume it's going to be an EPDand hopefully we can train
genomics, etc, etc, etc.
I don't want to get people'shopes up too high, but if we
find enough heritability inthese that we can make
directional change.
What will we be selecting forwhen we look for that?
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29 (36:39):
That's an interesting question.
Uh, you know what?
I, I think we already have halfof what, what you're asking
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (36:47):
That was going to be my next
question.
So you go ahead.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-20 (36:50):
So, the idea that seven experiments
in a row show a positivephenotypic correlation for feed
intake suggests to me that wecan be using breed association
dry matter intake, EPDs, now.
And that, and that, again, Ithink that We'd love to have a
(37:14):
genetic correlation for thisquestion, obviously, a better
one.
But, uh, I think it's going towind up being higher than what
we're seeing from a phenotypiccorrelation.
That's just kind of how thosecalculations work.
But, um, what I suggested to agroup here the other day is
that, Okay, so it's too bad wedon't have a camera and we can
(37:38):
show a graph,
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (37:40):
I'm not there yet Dave.
I'm getting I'm closer, but I'mnot Rogan just yet.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-20 (37:45):
you let me know and we'll do this
again when you
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (37:48):
here's what we'll do though, and I'll
let you keep going, but we willlink to that PowerPoint
presentation, if you're willing.
We'll put it here and folks cango to the notes and click it,
uh, because it's, it's greatinfo.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-20 (38:01):
and it's and it's uh also available
on the Beef ImprovementFederation
matt_3_08-29-2024_1504 (38:07):
Perfect.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-202 (38:08):
as well.
But, uh, so for example, uh, I,I think about now, Before we get
too far down this road let mejust say that forage use
efficiency is, is again going tobe part of a complex, uh, you
know, series of decisions thathave to be made, but I think
this could be a big one, butunderstand that the cattle will
(38:33):
be expected to check all theother boxes too.
They'll have to, they'll have tobe fertile, they'll have to have
good feet, they'll have to havegood udders, they'll have to
have docility, on and on.
And so, I get that.
And probably, before we jump offinto this, you know, you'd need
to set the standard right awaythat they have to be fertile and
they need to come in a good bodycondition score.
(38:55):
Whether they eat a lot orwhether they eat a little, you'd
need to set that.
But depending on what a person'sbreeding objective is, again, if
you're trying to control cowcosts, I think, Matt, we ought
to be thinking about, and I'd beinterested to hear what my
genetics colleagues think aboutus using, um, the dry matter
(39:20):
intake EPD as it's availabletoday in combination with the
mature cow body weight.
Okay, I think those together area very powerful tool for someone
to control the appetite and feedcosts in their cow operation,
(39:41):
um, depending again on whattheir breeding objective is.
Well, or they could use it to,to, you know, make progress on
their breeding objectives.
That's, that's how I should saythat.
But let's say, for example, wehave a scatter plot bulls,
which, which I do have in thispresentation, uh, and, and right
(40:01):
down through the middle of whatlooks like somebody kind of
nailed it with a 12 gauge, rightdown through the middle of all
that data is a line that's the,the average mature cow body
weight, EPD.
And right now, the industry isusing mature cow body weight as
a proxy to guess what their feedintake is going to be.
(40:23):
And that is how we are trying toadvise people to control feed
intake or stocking rate in your,in your genetics, current and
future.
Uh, I think we, by adding thedry matter intake EPD, we could
sort of strengthen that effortsubstantially.
(40:44):
What do I mean by that?
Well, if on our scatter plot,the horizontal line through the
middle of all the data, youknow, represents breed average
for dry matter intake EPD.
If you select above, the breedaverage, obviously you're
selecting cattle probably formore growth, but for more
appetite, more daily feedintake.
(41:06):
If you select below that linethat goes through the middle of
the data horizontally, you'reselecting for, you know, reduce,
putting pressure on reducingfeed intake in, in, in those
animals.
And so let's just say you have,you have a set of proven SIREs.
Now when I say proven, the dataI pulled down off the Angus
(41:28):
website I think had to berequired that they were at least
0.
5 accuracy for dry matter intakeEPD and for mature cow weight
EPD.
Okay, so let's say we've got agroup of bulls in there and in
this, uh, in this graph there isa set of bulls up in the top
left corner.
So that means they're belowaverage mature cow weight.
(41:52):
pretty substantially belowaverage.
In fact, these bulls are, andthey're way above breed average
on feed intake.
Now, if we've been able to checkall the other boxes, and you
know, yes, they come in in goodflesh in general, we can say
that we think those daughters ofthose sires are easy fleshing
cows.
(42:12):
But still, why would you dothat?
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (42:15):
Yeah.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-20 (42:16):
Why would you want little cows that
eat more than breed, you know,far more, in this case, far
more, than breed average.
Because you're nearlyguaranteeing yourself, not
guaranteeing, but it's a pretty,there's a pretty strong chance
that post winning performance toyour calves is not gonna be
great, right?
(42:38):
Because there's a very strongcorrelation between growth and
mature cow weight.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (42:43):
But those cows are the picture of
efficiency.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29- (42:46):
well, I mean, that's, that's what we
have assumed up to this point,
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (42:51):
And I bring that up because we, a
month and a half ago, had a.
Big busload of folks from SouthAmerica and they found a cow.
We had them all cornered up in apasture and they were walking
through them and they found thebest cow on the ranch.
And, um, they were scratchingher and taking videos and
perfect at her and a half bodycondition, body condition, full
(43:14):
body conditions score higherthan anybody else.
And, um, she was, she was thecover girl and I looked her up
and she was.
middle to bottom of the pack onEPDs and I looked up her
production records and sheratioed about a 93 on three or
four calves that she'd had and Imean she was a Subpar cow no
(43:38):
other way about now.
She had bred First or second AIand so there's value there.
But yeah, I mean what we thinkwe know about range cow
efficiency like or not might beYou Proven wrong with the
information that you're startingto show us.
And there may, there may be somewho look the part as well.
(44:01):
And if so, by all
squadcaster-2f13_3_ (44:03):
absolutely.
Absolutely.
I mean, what, what, and whatwe're discovering is we, you
know, obviously we get to seethese cattle every day, twice a
day, in fact, and, and there aresome, there's some cows that
look the part and they're, andas everybody knows, there's some
cows that, Just they're not avery good phenotype and are
extremely efficient and just theopposite.
It's just hard to tell bylooking
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (44:25):
but let me and I I shouldn't have
interrupted you there becauseyou have a great point in case
people can't go to thatPowerPoint presentation and
look, basically, I think whatyou're saying is in that bottom
right quadrant, you have bigcows, at least bigger than
average.
that are likely and hopefullyraising big calves that go onto
(44:49):
the feed yard and produce bigcarcasses and they're actually
eating less than the average andhopefully as long as, as you
said, as long as they're able tostay in the right body condition
to breed and do their job, um,we may, this idea that we got to
select for little cows may notnecessarily be right from an
(45:12):
intake standpoint, correct?
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29- (45:14):
yeah, I think we've, there are
efficient
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (45:16):
can do both.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-202 (45:17):
in that bottom right quadrant.
That's right.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (45:20):
Okay.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2 (45:20):
And, and, you know, think about the
extra income from a cold cowstandpoint all by itself.
I mean,
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (45:26):
Oh yeah, especially today.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29 (45:28):
today, you know, 300, 400 pounds of
additional cold cow and ourweight to sell is tremendous.
So, yeah, that.
I think we can be doing that nowand using those two genetic
tools in combination, I thinkright now is a powerful tool.
(45:51):
they, we need more phenotypesreported on those two traits in
our industry.
And I think, you know, this typeof information, this potential
use of it, really underlines theneed for more of that, more of
that data.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (46:08):
Yeah.
And, you know, you mentionedyour proven sires level of
accuracy of a 0.
5.
You know, number one, it's hardto find a lot of proven sires
with dry matter intake data, uh,because that is.
Relatively expensive to get,you've got to have a Grow Safe
or C Lock or who, whomever,whatever brand you choose,
(46:30):
you've got to measure that feedand submit those phenotypes.
And, um, uh, while we havelooked at doing that on our
outfit, um, I have told myselfuntil I know there is a very
good correlation between thatbunk fed, you know, 50 percent
concentrate, actually less here,but.
(46:51):
better than what they would geton pasture related back to the
forage utilization efficiency.
I'm not there yet.
I don't feel like we can, canafford to measure that.
But the other thing that'sdisheartening to me is you go
over to the mature cow weight innearly any breed, including
(47:12):
Angus, unfortunately, and It'spretty sparse as well.
Um, for numerous reasons, but,um, you know, part of which I
don't know that we always wantto admit just how much our cows
weigh, but if what you'retelling us is accurate, as long
as she's Eating at or less thanthe average.
(47:33):
Um, I hate to say the bigger,the better, but there's not as
much of a, negative concept onthese bigger, mature cow
weights, uh, as long as they'redoing everything else they need
to do well.
But yeah, that's the need fordata in both of those traits.
One is very cheap, matureheight, weight, and body
conditions don't cost a thing.
They're in the shoot already asyou're pregging them or
(47:55):
whatever, right there at weaningtime.
Uh, My, hope is that, uh, allbreeders will start submitting
that.
The more expensive one, thetougher one to get at is dry
matter intake.
But, uh, but we do, thanks togenomics and core, you know,
things that they have been ableto do there.
Uh, we can, we can get these,this information even without
(48:16):
necessarily investing to, uh, torecord all that intake data.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2 (48:20):
it's gradually getting better as time
goes by.
And that's good.
Now, the second part of whatthis looks like, that was your
original question, uh, I thinkactually.
is not that difficult.
Now, yes, if we can't get amature cow body weight
phenotype, uh, turned in, youknow, it, it may be, but I mean,
(48:45):
you know, drier, uh, years, moredrought, more heat is going to
increase people's interest inthis kind of work, Right,
Because, yeah, so, But what I'mgetting at is that, um, if
there's no correlation betweenforage intake and concentrate
(49:05):
diet or mixed diet intake, forcrying out loud, weigh the
animals when you turn them out,give them 70 to 90 days and
weigh them again on grass,right?
I mean, how difficult will thatbe to generate?
Um, and so, you know, perhaps ifyou're a seed stock industry, a
(49:29):
producer that has a breedingobjective to find and improve
cattle that are very efficientat forage utilization, what you
need to do, I think, is identifya time period where it's logical
and practical to do that foragetest.
My suggestion would be not to doit during the lush grass growth.
(49:52):
time of the year.
Do it like in the fall when theforages mature and becoming
senescent or do it through thewinter or something.
Now, you know, the moreconcentrate you're having to
supplement those cattle, themore you kind of, uh, muddy the
data set.
because, you know, you don'tknow if the cow that's chasing
(50:14):
the cake feeder is getting 10pounds of supplement when she's
only supposed to be getting two,and that's why she performs
better.
But for your replacementheifers, you know, if you can
find a time of the year whereyou have moderate to below
moderate forage quality, I thinkall we need is a series of data,
(50:35):
uh, to, and yes, we need to lookat the genetic correlation.
for that weight gain comparedto, let's say, a bull test diet
weight gain.
And we're, we're going to try toget that done here in the next
couple of years.
But, I think,
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (50:50):
to make sure I understand all
you're saying is, you're goingto assume that, for this type
of, of, I guess, dumbed down,uh, forage test, you're going to
assume that everybody intakesthe same.
And let's just find the onesthat gained on a single Low
quality forage out in thepasture from the time they were
(51:12):
turned out until the time theycame into the feed yard or
whatever the case may be, andjust make all the assumptions
that everybody ate the same andwe will make directional change
just because we find the onesthat stay in, that are able to
convert grass into meat, in thiscase, or flesh.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-20 (51:31):
For the most part, I think you've
got it there.
But I, yes, I think all we needis to record a phenotype for
moderate quality forage
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (51:40):
With
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29- (51:40):
gain.
But, Matt, what I'm saying is,rather than doing an efficiency
test, we use the genetic toolsavailable for feed intake, for
the feed intake piece.
Yes.
Yeah.
and, and we can use that pieceto control intake or cost.
And then we can use the averagedaily gain on moderate to low
(52:02):
quality forage to find animalsactually that can perform on
forage.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (52:08):
Well, it's pretty exciting stuff.
Um, especially if we are able tofind some of these genetic
correlations that enable us touse something that's a little
more cost effective to collectin terms of intakes on a, on a
bunk type fed ration andextrapolate those out to the
(52:29):
pastures and the ranges across.
What, uh, what has surprised youthe most?
As you've looked at this dataand as you've gone through this
project, what's something thatyou thought you were pretty
confident that you'd find thatmaybe you didn't.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29- (52:46):
Well, the, the lack of correlation for
weight gain on those twodifferent diets was a surprise,
no doubt about it.
Um, so that would probably benumber one.
Uh, the second thing is, is apaper we published several years
ago, Matt, and it's kind ofunrelated to the current
conversation, but yet, but yetit's important piece as we're
(53:10):
considering how to, you know,select cattle for, uh, ranch
profitability.
And that is, and I know you'veseen this data, but we evaluated
the Superior Livestock VideoAuctions data and discovered
that, you know, We use projecteddelivery weight on un weaned
(53:31):
lots of calves, un weaned salelots.
And we discovered that thoseprofessional superior
representatives stoppedexpecting those calves weaning
weight to increase in 2006 and2007.
And since then it's been flat.
(53:51):
And so once we, once we sawthat, I got to looking for other
data sets to see if that wasgoing on in the seed stock
industry.
And so the Angus websitepublishes phenotypic, trend, in
Bulls and Heifers and so doesthe Charolais website.
(54:12):
And if you plot those twophenotypic trends over time,
they both show the exact same,uh, uh, trend.
And that is, as time goes by,uh, those weights, those weaning
weights are stabilizing and theystabilize.
Actually, maybe it started tostabilize, actually, maybe a
(54:33):
little bit before 2006 and 2007.
So what's the implication?
Why is that important?
Why was it a surprise?
Well, you know, if you look atthe at the genetic trend for
selection for yearling weightgrowth, we just, we continue to
head north, right?
Very aggressively.
But if, if you are a rancherthat sells your calves at
(54:56):
weaning and your weaning weighthas not changed for 15 years,
uh, you probably need to reevaluate your priorities in, in
selection criteria and makesure, you know, obvious, the
obvious, I guess, sign would bethat you need to be trying to
control cost more than trying toincrease, uh, uh, weaning weight
(55:18):
for, at least.
So that, that was a big surpriseand continues to be, but the
other side of that is we takethose same calves, maybe that
don't wean any, don't weigh anymore weaning now than they did
back in 2006, 2007, and we takethem to the feed yard and take
(55:38):
the lid off the environment and,and they just explode.
So, yeah, if, if you're, if yourtrend has stopped increasing
over time, You know, it reallypoints to the need to develop,
uh, some sort of a, you know, away to capture that improved
(55:58):
genetic value of those postweaning traits.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (56:02):
Well, at 55 minutes, um, into this
supposed to be one hour podcast,you just brought up a, uh, a
topic that I think I couldprobably have a second two hour
podcast on.
Um, but I don't want to leavefolks hanging too far because
that, that is a discussion thatI've had with a few folks over
(56:26):
the last couple of years.
And.
As I have thought about this andlooked at those same genetic
trends mapped over the actualweaning weights and I think
Superior's data would be evenmore indicative of what we see
on the, in the hills of, ofcommercial cow calf America.
(56:47):
I guess my question would be,who is at fault for that?
In terms of us having highergenetic trends and more
capabilities of those calves toweigh more and yet they don't.
And I would say it's mothernature.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2 (57:04):
that was my point.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (57:06):
Yeah.
And, and what we have done, no,you, you said it perfectly.
I just think, because sometimesnot all of us figure, not all of
us get this right off the bat,but the, the engine is big
enough to make 750 and 850pound.
Weaning weight calves.
And yet, there are not very manyof us that are willing to feed
(57:31):
that cow and or that pair to getthem to that.
And so consequently, and this iswhere this is where I may say
some things that'll either getme in trouble or make people
really scratch their head.
I don't know that we as anindustry realize what that cow
(57:52):
is doing in an attempt to meetthe genetic, ability that she
has.
When she's limited by MotherNature and can't eat even in the
most lush of forage environmentsfor that two or three, four
month period, like you said,that it's probably good enough
or at least close for her tomeet that, um, genetic
(58:14):
potential, but the other nine or10 months, it's not.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2 (58:17):
Yep.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (58:18):
I think she's doing some things
like Not getting bred, likesloughing an embryo, so many of
the things that she didn't usedto do.
Because she didn't still think,hey, I've got to go farther.
I've got to make more milk.
I've got to grow more.
Uh, this cat, you know, all ofthese different things.
I worry that sometimes we'veovershot the runway.
(58:38):
And depending on your costs offeed and the value of that
carcass, if we go clear to theend,
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-202 (58:48):
Mm hmm.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (58:50):
fix that one of two ways.
You either quit pushing the edgeof the envelope for weaning and
yearling and all this outputs.
Or you say, you know what,feed's not that expensive.
I'm going to give her everythingshe needs.
And, and we've got camps on bothsides of that equation that have
said this is the answer.
I don't know which one is right.
But I do know that if you don'tknow, do one or the other, um,
(59:14):
we are left with a set of cowsthat's A little thinner, a
little higher open rates, um,you know, all the stuff that we
talk about in the hallways atevery BIF meeting and everything
else because these cows knowwhat they're supposed to be
doing.
These calves know what they'resupposed to be doing and when we
(59:36):
don't have enough nutrients toget it done.
The wheels start falling off.
Either they get sick more often,they don't breed, whatever the
case may be, and, and, yeah,it's, again, it's another hour
to two hour conversation, um,but I think some of the work
that you all are doing there is,is, is showing us that, um, the
(59:58):
genetics may be there, it'sjust, do, Mother Nature and, and
producers, Give them what theyneed to, to actually express
that.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29- (01:00:08):
yeah, it's again, it's a complex, you
know, biological system,ecosystem, however you want to
look at it, and uh, it's, it's areal challenge to come up with
all of those answers we wouldneed to determine the factors
that influence their efficiencyin a, you you know, no holds bar
(01:00:33):
kind of feed environment.
But, uh,
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (01:00:35):
Sure.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-20 (01:00:37):
the other thing I guess I'd say,
Matt, the last thing I'll saythat has really surprised me.
That was your question.
What's really surprised me.
And I mentioned this out at theBIF meeting this year.
We published a paper here acouple of years ago where we, we
sort of proved, I've sort ofproved myself wrong.
(01:00:58):
And that is
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (01:00:59):
it when that happens.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29- (01:01:00):
Yeah, well, turns out I do that a lot.
Um, wind up, wind up beingwrong.
But, uh, um, We did a very, andI'll just cut to the chase here,
but we did a very intenseexperiment where we looked at
the amount of feed intakerequired to maintain a lactating
(01:01:21):
cow's body weight.
And so, bottom line is we put a,and it, we only used 24 cows for
this study because it was sointensive, but we put cows in a
stall barn and we fed them acertain amount of feed.
weighed them every week.
If they gained weight, wedropped the amount of feed she
got.
If she lost weight, we bumpedthe amount of feed she got.
(01:01:42):
Well, a hundred and, I don'tknow, a hundred and five, a
hundred and ten days later, weknew exactly how much feed it
took for each one of thosetwenty four cows to maintain
their body weight, okay?
Body weight and body condition.
These were lactating cows.
We also milked them every threeweeks like we normally do on
these studies.
(01:02:03):
Okay, so what did we learn?
Well, the National Academy ofSciences, Engineering, and
Medicine has published in printfor many years now that if you
continue to select for growthand milk production, you're
going to increase maintenanceenergy requirements.
Okay, well that makes sense.
Holstein cows have highermaintenance energy requirements
(01:02:26):
than beef cows.
Uh, but in our study, uh, weactually found that cows that
gave more milk and were able tomaintain their body weight and
body condition on less feed hadlower maintenance requirement.
Exactly the opposite of what theNational Academy of Sciences
(01:02:49):
book says.
And I thought we'll never getthis paper published, but we
did.
We were, we were able to get itpublished.
So apparently there are otherscientists out there that at
least agreed with themethodology that we used.
And actually might have been,might have been thinking that,
in fact, I know, I know onescientist is one of, one of the,
(01:03:11):
the world's best beef cattleenergetics people, and he'd been
kind of telling me all along, Imean, his idea was that in a
beef animal, you know, you don'thave 120 pounds of milk.
pounds of milk.
You have, you have cows thatgive 10 pounds of milk and cows
that might give up to 40 poundsof milk.
And his point was that range inproduction is not going to be
(01:03:35):
enough to affect, uh,maintenance energy requirements
where we're at right now.
Um, Yeah, maybe if we selectedfor milk for a hundred years we
might get there, but anyway atthe end of the day it looked to
us like, and this is what we putin that paper, cows that had,
had lower maintenancerequirement, well cows that were
(01:03:57):
able to produce more milk andrequire less feed had more
energy left over.
once they took care of theirmaintenance to do the productive
things.
Well, productive is gain weightand produce milk.
And so they had more energy leftover to do that.
It's not that they had highermaintenance, it's that they had
(01:04:19):
lower maintenance and thereforeextra energy to do the
productive things.
So that was pretty cool and itwas a big surprise.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (01:04:27):
Yeah, that's I mean, I just you name
it these these mindsets we haveabout low maintenance females.
Also quite often being lowproduction females, in terms of
weight or milk or whatever thecase may be.
Um, their actual net energy formaintenance might actually be
higher than the productive ones.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29- (01:04:49):
Yeah,
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (01:04:50):
It's just that those productive ones
may need a little more feed toactually produce.
So, yeah, when you say it's acomplex ecosystem or a complex
biological system, um,
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29- (01:05:02):
Yeah.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (01:05:05):
I mean, that's, that's why cattle
production, that's why seedstock, genetic production and
evaluation and selection and,and even management decisions,
how much and whether to feed ornot.
Um, that's why they're so tough.
That's why you can't just lookat an EPD and say his yearling
(01:05:28):
weight is, you know, Plus 100.
And so they're going to weighthis.
There's so many things besidesjust environment feed and
everything else that go intothat.
And all we can do, I think, iscattle producers that are either
feeding the system or feedingthe progeny out of these
genetics, uh, is, is stayabreast of trends and research
(01:05:49):
and things like what you'redoing there and, and try to
figure out tools that help usget where we're going.
So.
It's been a great discussion,and I'm serious.
I'm gonna I'm gonna put a link.
I hope if it's all right withyou a link to the one of those
PowerPoint presentations, eitherthe 5 80 conference or B.
I.
F.
Or which whichever one you thinkwould would be, um, the best for
(01:06:13):
that.
And I may even also put youremail in there if you don't mind
and see if anybody has furtherquestions to reach out.
But yeah, this has been a greatdiscussion.
It's got a little deep at timesin terms of some of the some of
the genetics information forfolks that maybe aren't in that
business.
But but hopefully goodinformation to think through for
all of us.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29- (01:06:34):
Yeah.
Well, I appreciate theopportunity to share some of the
work that we're doing.
It's exciting and look forwardto, you know, making progress as
we go along.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (01:06:43):
You bet.
Well, we appreciate being partof it and, uh, appreciate you
sharing that and, uh, yeah,we'll, we'll keep abreast of
findings in the future.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29- (01:06:52):
Thank you, Matt.
Microphone (Yeti Stereo (01:06:54):
Thanks again for listening to
practically ranching brought toyou by Dale banks, Angus, as
we've said before, if you likewhat we're doing here, give us a
five star rating, drop us acomment and be sure to follow
us, to hear future episodes.
As soon as they're out.
And be sure to make plans tojoin us for our annual bull
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(01:07:16):
If you'd like to receive acatalog, drop me a note at
mattperrier@dalebanks.com.
God bless each of you.
We'll talk to you again in twoweeks.
Thanks for joining us for episode 61 of
practically ranching.
I'm your host, Matt Perrier.
As always the podcast issponsored by Dalebanks, Angus
Eureka, Kansas.
Your home for practicalprofitable genetics.
This was a really cooldiscussion with a guy who is a
bit of an individualist-- somemight even call him a rebel-- in
(00:30):
the research community and in myopinion, I think that's kind of
refreshing today.
Dr.
David Lalman got hisundergraduate degree at Kansas
state university.
He did his master's work atMontana state and received PhDs
and ruminant nutrition and beefreproduction from the university
(00:51):
of Missouri.
Today.
He is a professor and extensionbeef cattle specialist at
Oklahoma state.
He works primarily in the beefcattle industry, focused on cow
calf and stocker cattleproduction.
His extension and appliedresearch program include beef,
cattle, nutrition andmanagement, with emphasis on
beef cattle grazing, and geneticby environment interactions and
(01:13):
beef production systems.
It's program goals are toprovide producers with
information and decision toolsto facilitate production system
profitability, improve cowherdefficiency and improve product
quality.
At Oklahoma state Dr.
Lalman.
And serves as animal scienceextension program coordinator
and the supervisor for the rangecow research center.
(01:36):
Over the past few years, he'sbeen doing several research
projects relative to forageutilization of beef cattle, as
well as their feed intake andassociated outputs in terms of
milk and weaning weight andweight gain.
And our family and ranch hasbeen very interested in this
work.
Uh, we've even supplied some ofthe genetics for the program
(01:57):
over the past several years.
If you have ever experiencedissues with thinner or harder
breeding cows than you thoughtyou used to see, or calf weaning
weights that don't seem to keeppace with their sires increasing
EPDs...
I think this discussion is goingto be pretty interesting.
(02:18):
We mainly talked about, uh, Dr.
Lalman's research on forageutilization.
But if you stick around to theend of the discussion, he drops
a couple of really interesting,possibly contrary, observations
that may dispel some of theseage old beliefs that smaller
cows are more efficient andlower milking cows are more
(02:39):
efficient.
So stick around, let us knowwhat you think about this
conversation.
And thanks as always for joiningus this week to hear from Dr.
Dave Lalman.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (02:50):
Tell us a little bit about this
forage efficiency project thatyou've been working on and um,,
what you've been up to with that
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29- (02:59):
Yeah, sure.
over time, we've kind of finetuned the characterization of
our research project to forageuse efficiency, because if we
just talk about cow efficiency,while, you know, I, I think our
work falls under that umbrella,cow efficiency includes a, a lot
of difference.
things and pretty, pretty deepwater as I heard some of my
(03:23):
colleagues describe it at times.
And that's, that is definitelytrue, uh, but there aren't too
many groups in the countryworking on forage utilization
efficiency.
And so, you know, that, that'swhy we have chosen to focus on
(03:43):
that area because it's just not,um, a lot of people doing that.
And You know, Matt, the cow herduses about 74 percent of the
feed energy needed to produceone pound of carcass weight.
And so it's kind of a surprisewhen people learn that a lot of
the, you know, there's not a lotmore feed energy used post
(04:08):
weaning.
Uh, but the truth is, is thatthe cow calf segment of the
industry uses by far and awaythe majority of the feed energy.
And of course our cows, I, Itell people that our cows in
Oklahoma here wind up with abouttwo months of good quality
forage and 10 months of marginalto low quality forage.
And that's not true in all partsof Oklahoma.
(04:31):
Uh, but it is.
it is for a good bit of it.
So that's kind of the generalidea and, and kind of where, you
know, what we've been workingat.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (04:42):
So three fourths of the energy
required to make a pound ofcarcass weight is required from
weaning forward., I guessweaning back, if you're going
chronologically, but uh, from,from breeding to weaning time
for that calf.
And yet, nearly every singleproject and every single
(05:04):
conversation that we hear aboutfeed efficiency, it's always at
a feed yard level.
Why is that?
Is it just because it's a lowhanging fruit, or why is that?
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29- (05:14):
yeah, I, I think, uh, depend on how
you, how you define low hangingfruit.
Uh,
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (05:20):
Lower, I
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2024 (05:21):
I mean, I mean, honestly, it's, it
was a good place to start andit's not that difficult today to
measure.
We still don't know how tomeasure forage intake.
in a, in a pasture.
But we do know how to do it onan animal in a pen.
(05:41):
And so that's why we startedthere, because the industry
developed these tools twentyfive, maybe getting close to
thirty years ago now, to measureindividual animal intake in a
pen.
And so I think that's the answerto your question is, uh, that,
that's where we started becausethat's what we could measure.
(06:02):
And, yeah, you could measureforage intake in a cow herd,
but, uh, gosh, the, uh, our workis with long stem, dry,
unprocessed hay.
And, uh, We would rather bedoing this work in the pasture,
but we don't know how to do thatyet.
And so, this was, we thought, asclose as we could get, and, and,
(06:27):
you know, over time we'll beable to try to, try to validate
the data to see if we get thesame ranking of animals out in
the pasture compared to theanswer we get in the pen feeding
nothing but dry long stem hayand mineral.
But a lot, a lot of the, therehave been a lot of forage
efficiency papers published,Matt, but they've, they all are
(06:52):
processed forage, you know,that's been ground or chopped.
It's generally some type ofsilage.
It's wet and relative high inenergy.
In other words, harvested aroundthe boot stage, maybe even prior
to, or just a little after.
It's not very mature forage.
And many times it's got aconcentrate component.
(07:12):
Well.
You know, uh, well aired cornsilage is 50 percent corn grain
on a dry matter basis for cryingout loud, and some of the, uh,
some of the forage efficiencypapers published are with corn
silage and alfalfa haylage.
And, you know, I guess my pointis our cows just don't see that
(07:33):
kind of a diet for, for verylong.
Yes, a month or two out of theyear would be similar, but
beyond that, yeah, not, not toomuch.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (07:42):
So give us the nuts and bolts of
how you're doing it.
What kind of logistics, uh,where those cows are, how
they're being fed, how you'remeasuring, uh, are they getting
any concentrate?
I mean, it sounds to me likeyou're trying to mimic what I
would call a practical, basicform of, of running a set of
(08:06):
cows out on pasture where when,at the right time of the year,
all of their nutrition is comingfrom mother nature off of the
ground, i.
e.
grass.
At a few times of the year, theymay be getting some supplemental
protein, possibly even somedelivered hay or other energy
sources, but you're trying tomimic what most of us are out
here doing 12 months of the yearof those cows and yet still
(08:29):
measure every bite that theyconsume.
How are you doing?
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2 (08:33):
mean that's the idea.
Um, some would argue that Youknow, the system we've come up
with is, is not ideal, but, uh,I, I would challenge those,
those that, that make thosecomments to, you know, would
just, just show us how we coulddo it and get closer to that,
you know, real world, uh,scenario.
(08:54):
The, I guess the first thing tosay would be that, uh, we are
testing and generally thesetesting periods, uh, are about
90 to 95 days, okay, eachperiod.
Uh, we have a, uh, trying to usea minimum of 21 days to allow
the animals to adapt to thepens, the individual intake
(09:17):
feeding system that we havedeveloped, or, or developed in
collaboration with, uh, company.
And then, uh, we start off,weigh the animals, uh, a couple
of times, two days in a row, sothat we know, you know, very
close to what their startingweight was, and then we test
those animals for 70 to 75 daysafter the adaptation period.
(09:40):
And again, uh, our diet so farhas been, uh, long stem, dry
Bermuda grass hay.
And we're using Bermuda grassbecause we can harvest Bermuda
grass high enough proteinconcentration so that we don't
have to feed a concentratesupplement or a concentrated,
you know, oilseed meal, cottonseed meal or soybean meal or
(10:02):
something like that.
And so, so far the cattle havegotten straight hay and mineral.
And that has been their diet.
We are testing replacementheifers a few weeks after
weaning.
So they're in there for about 90days.
And then we pull the heifersout, kind of clean the pens up
(10:24):
again and start over with a setof lactating fall calving cows.
Uh, and they go in the pens whenthey're lactating four year old,
so this would be their thirdcalf.
Uh, and then we test them forabout 90 days, the same 90 day
period.
We, we pull those calves off ofthem, wean the calves, let the
(10:47):
cows dry up for a few weeks, andthen pull them back into the
pens and go right back into agestation period study for
another 90 days.
And so the idea is that.
By the time we're finished here,doing this over several years,
each, each contemporary groupwill have a, uh, heifer phase,
(11:07):
uh, set of data.
lactation phase intake andperformance data and gestation
phase intake and performancedata.
And, you know, the, the firststep we thought we ought to try
to solve is whether or not it'srepeatable, uh, among those
stages.
There's no point in spending alot of effort and and, uh,
(11:30):
expense testing heifers if itdoesn't relate to a lactating
cow.
Right?
And so we thought that we'dbetter make sure that, that it
does follow through and so farit seems like it does.
And there's been recentpublications to sort of back
that up and say, yeah, we can,we can probably get the
information we need to findforage efficient cattle by
(11:54):
testing the heifers on a, on aforage diet.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (11:58):
And how are you measuring the
intakes on those individuals?
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-202 (12:02):
So we have, uh, we are working
with, uh, C-Lock Incorporatedwith their, um, individual
intake, uh, technology.
Uh, it, it's much, if you'refamiliar with the GrowSafe
system, it's a, it's a feed,feed intake bunk similar to
that.
You know, the system uses, uh,uh, frequency identification
(12:25):
tags.
When the animal puts their headin the feeder, the RFID reader
time stamps the data to indicatethat animal, you know, the time,
the date, uh, that that animalapproached the feeder.
And then when they back out, ittime stamps it again.
And then of course these unitshave load cells on either side.
(12:47):
of the little feed bunk and thedifference in weight from the
time the animal put their headinto the feeder and the time
they put their, pulled theirhead out of the feeder is what
it, what it measures as theirfeed intake for that, uh, eating
event.
And so You know, that's thebasic technology.
Now we had to modify the feeder.
(13:08):
We bought the largest bunkstainless steel bunk C-Lock had
available.
So they're large units becausewe knew we were going to be
feeding long stem dry hay.
And, you know, if you try to putvery much long stem hay in one
of those smaller bunks that,that can accommodate a
(13:29):
concentrate diet, which ofcourse is dense, packed, it's
usually wet.
You can get a lot of pounds downinside that bunk and may only
have to feed once a day.
I think a lot of people who dothe feed efficiency work do only
have to feed once a day.
But, uh, the, uh, the densityis, as you would know, is of
hay.
(13:49):
is not, is, is pretty low.
And so you would wind up havingto feed three, four, five times
a day in order, otherwise youput a lot of hay in those bunks
and the cows are just going toroot it out and shove it out
into the feed alley.
So we built, we, we built, weused, purchased the largest
bunks and then we built a basketto install on top of the bunk.
(14:13):
if the basket looks a little bitlike a horse stall hay feeder.
So it's kind of angled and youdrop, we drop the hay in, uh, in
the top of the basket, whichagain is resting on top of this
C lock bump, bunk.
The angled part of the horsestall hay feeder is actually a
swinging gate.
(14:35):
So we can set it to where thebottom of that of that angled
gate is wider so there's alittle bit of an opening at the
bottom and more hay can dropdown into the C-Lock bunk unit
or we can pull it up tight sothat the animals have to reach
up and pull the hay out of thattop angled portion like you see
(14:58):
in a horse stall.
and the idea was to, you know,force the animals to pull the
hay through the bars.
of, of that feeder in front oftheir face and above them, and
then anything that was droppedfrom their mouth or pulled out
and just, you know, normallywould, would hit the pen surface
outside of the feeder.
(15:19):
Well, that adds to yourexperimental, uh, error.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (15:23):
Loss.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2 (15:24):
And, and so, Now, the way we have
this designed, the hay thatdrops from their mouth drops in
the bottom of the feeder and,you know, it does not, it
reduces our error substantially.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (15:38):
And how many cows or heifers, uh,
lactating cows as opposed togestating cows can you test at
one given time?
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29- (15:47):
Yeah, so that's another interesting
part of our research program.
We've discovered and makes itmore challenging because we have
to use a low stocking rate onthese feed intake units.
A lot of the folks doing Youknow, the wet, more dense,
concentrated, concentrated typediets are stocking those
(16:11):
somewhere between six to eightanimals per unit, per feed
intake unit.
We have, we stock ours at aboutthree to three and a half.
animals per intake unit becausea cow consuming forage wants to
spend a lot more time, needs tospend a lot more time chewing,
you know, masticating, uh, thatforage and it just takes more
(16:34):
time to consume a certain unitof weight.
And so they want to spend fourto four and a half hours a day
in their eating.
And so therefore, let's say ifyou had six animals six cows per
feeder and each cow wanted tospend four hours in that feeder,
that feeder should be full 24 7,right?
(16:56):
24 hours a day.
Well, that means you'reradically modifying some of
those animals behavior andforcing them to eat through the
middle of the night.
And so, that's why we backed itway off to three and a half
because we want it to be morepractical and, and, you know,
let those cows sleep through thenight, if that's what they
(17:16):
choose to do, uh, becausethey've had adequate access
throughout the early morning,middle of the day and late in
the evening to consume all theforage they wanted to consume.
so we have 15 of these unitsand, and so at three to three
and a half, you know, we're,we're somewhere in the
neighborhood of, yeah, 50 plusor minus.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (17:36):
So, pretty, I mean, a pretty good
jag.
I mean, it's, I didn't wantfolks thinking, well, they're
just doing six cows orsomething.
Uh, and you've, you know, Ofcourse, this goes without saying
to anybody that's done anygenetic research projects, but
these are known origin, knownpedigreed cows that, um, for the
(17:56):
most part, you can go bothbackwards and forwards as they
have calves entering the herd,uh, but you know who these are
and you can make some of thosegenetic ties not to get too far
ahead of the logistics, but, um,these aren't just, run of the
mill commercial cows that you'rejust curious about.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29- (18:14):
Yeah, no, I mean, we have pretty good
records on these cattle for, Imean, you know, we've raised all
of these cattle on, on the, at,at the research station there.
And so, yeah, we do havepedigree information.
We have genomic data on all ofthese cattle.
So, yeah, absolutely.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (18:31):
So on the intake side, I think we've
gone through that from aproduction standpoint on the
output.
Um, what all are you measuringthere?
Obviously weight gain and bodycondition score and things like
that on the cows.
Milk, pounds of calf, etc, etc.
What are you collecting?
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29- (18:50):
Yeah, so during the lactating phase,
we do milk these cows aboutevery three, once every three
weeks.
Um, and you know, of coursethere we also take a sample and
have it analyzed for, uh,protein, fat, lactose, uh, and
then of course, you know, we getother values as well.
with that, but, uh, so milkcomponents, milk yield, that
(19:15):
allows us to calculate totalmilk energy, uh, and then we try
to do several things to estimatebody composition.
Uh, the main thing would beultrasound.
data at the beginning of eachperiod and at the end of each of
these 70 day tests, 70 75 daytest periods.
And then we also do the samewith body condition scores.
(19:37):
We actually find that ratherthan ultrasound on a cow that's
not extremely fleshy, the bodycondition score system works a
little better.
Because you know, an ultrasoundon a cow that's, say, a body
condition score of 4, shedoesn't have much back fat.
And it's really difficult todistinguish between, you know,
(19:57):
if she might've doubled her backfat and still have almost no
back fat.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (20:01):
Sure.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-202 (20:02):
So it's just, it's just not
sensitive enough a system topick up substantial difference.
But when we use body conditionscore, actually, the data makes,
kind of makes sense.
we can document body conditionscore change and look back and
see if their body conditioninfluences feed intake, and it
does.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (20:24):
Yeah, I think.
I think so many of those thingsas we start trying to measure
and quantify and characterize,especially with some of the, I
hate to say it, but moreproduction oriented or
performance oriented measures,um, They may not get at,
especially if they weredeveloped for feed yard cattle,
they may not get at what it isthat we truly need on the cow
(20:47):
side of things.
Uh, to measure what it is thatshe is doing, uh, can do, needs
to do, and, and then figure outis she getting enough to
actually get it done.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29- (20:58):
Yeah, yeah, our, our challenge is
going to be figuring out a wayto expand this work, you know,
in other words, identify cattlethat are real for efficient
forage users without having togo through one of these labor
intensive feed intake teststhat, that we're conducting now
that, that is our real challengein the future, but I mean, we
(21:20):
have learned a lot and it's, youknow, to me, it's, it's very
exciting.
the amount of variation we seein each contemporary group.
The, you know, the, we call themthe wonderfully terrible cows
that we find and the, and theamazing rock star cows that we
find.
Matt, we have found little cowsthat come in, you know, good
(21:42):
fleshing cows but they eat alot.
And we've found big cows thatdon't really eat very much and
are able to maintain their bodycondition.
Now in general, if we're talkingjust about cow size, sure, as
cows get bigger in general, youknow, our data lines up with
everybody else's and that isthat bigger cows eat more feed.
(22:04):
But, it's, it's not always true.
There's a substantial amount ofvariation there.
And just, just from a forage useefficiency standpoint and your
comment about measuring thingsthat are, you know, more related
to post weaning productionrather than the cow calf segment
of the industry.
I mean, we've got just this lastwinter, my current master
(22:29):
student did a really neat study.
I mean, just what we describedwith lactating.
period first, followed bygestation.
And he's got one cow in thatdata set that ate five or six
more pounds more than she shouldhave based on her productivity.
As I recall, she was, she wassupposed to, should have eaten
(22:52):
33 pounds.
She was consuming 38 on average.
So she was a big eater.
She, she was not a very big cow.
She did not give very much milk.
And she was losing weight.
And eating, eating more thanshe, than the group average,
okay?
(23:13):
So I don't, I don't know howmany more things you could do
wrong.
But she's one of thosewonderfully terrible cows.
You really couldn't tell bylooking at her.
And then in the samecontemporary group, he has
another cow that, uh, yeah,she's about a group average in,
in mature body weight.
(23:34):
Uh, but she is, let's see, sheshould have been consuming about
20 or 33 pounds.
And she was actually onlyconsuming throughout the entire
study average.
twenty eight pounds a day, andvery consistently consuming less
forage than all the rest of thecows in the group, or the
average of the group.
(23:55):
Uh, this cow is producing a lotof milk.
She is gaining weight.
Now think about that.
She's producing a lot of milkand gaining weight at the same
time, yet eating less thanaverage.
How much better could it get?
What more could you want?
Uh, I mean, if we add fertilityto that, I mean, you've got a,
(24:19):
you've got a cow that, uh, youknow, is what I would call an
efficient forage utilizer.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (24:26):
So any of my geneticists and animal
breeders that are listening tothis, the first place they're
going now is, What's theheritability of that?
And have we done it long enoughto know that if I select for
that cow who eats less producesmore milk, calf gains more
(24:49):
weight, she stays in good bodycondition, gains weight herself,
you know, she's going to be aupstanding citizen for me as
long as she's on the feed bill.
But will her replacementdaughters be.
exceptional.
Have you done it long enough toknow that or do we have any
inclination of what theheritability is here?
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-20 (25:08):
So, there, there's a really nice
data set, um, published in, as Irecall, 2020 in the Journal of
Animal Science.
And it was the Meat AnimalResearch Center Group, Dr.
Harvey Freetley is the, uh,primary author, lead author on
that paper.
And they looked at, I believethey, um, recorded data on about
(25:30):
600, 600 plus, uh, as weanedheifer calves, measuring feed
intake and weight gain, uh,during the, you know,
replacement heifer developmentperiod, and then using the same
diet, basically very close tothe same diet, as a five year
old.
(25:50):
Now their cows were not pregnantand they were not lactating,
they were open and dry, but theytested them again as 5 year
olds.
The genetic correlation for feedintake and gain for that larger
group of cattle, you know, nicedata set with 600 plus
experimental units, uh, thegenetic correlations I could
(26:13):
pull them up here for us, butthey're high, they're really
good.
And so that's what gives meconfidence that.
You know, if you can, you cantest a heifer, uh, the, uh, you
know, you're, you're going tofind females that will make
efficient cows.
Okay.
So here, I've got it pulled uphere, Matt, the, the, uh,
genetic correlation for averagedry matter intake, heifer to
(26:37):
five year old cow 0.
84.
I mean, that's awesome.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (26:42):
And that's heifer1234 was tested
again five years later andcow1234,
squadcaster-2f13_3_08- (26:50):
Exactly.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (26:51):
okay, had that high of a correlation.
But we don't have data yet ondaughters of cow1234 and are
they exceptional if she was aswell?
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-20 (27:02):
Not that I know of.
Not that I know of.
The average day of the gaingenetic correlation there is
0.73,
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (27:09):
Okay.
So yeah, pretty significant.
Okay.
So what about, I told myself Iwasn't going to get in the weeds
yet, but I'm a seed stock guy.
And so I'm already getting inthe weeds.
What about correlations betweenwhat I would call a typical bunk
fed, higher concentrate feedefficiency on a set of heifers.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-2 (27:31):
Mm-Hmm.
matt_3_08-29-2024_1 (27:33):
correlation positive or negative that it may
be, um, to your data.
So if, if heifers were fed aconcentrate, or I think
sometimes you call it a mixedration and developed on a, what
I'd call a moderate plane ofnutrition as yearlings, is there
(27:54):
any or much correlation betweenthat and that cow who's eaten
nothing but long stem dry hay?
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29- (28:03):
Well.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (28:04):
And her in, their intakes and, and
efficiencies.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08- (28:08):
probably need more work on that question.
There is one French paperpublished that does a reasonable
job looking at that question.
I have, have a little troublewith that data set and we won't
get into the weeds why.
Uh, but there all they measuredwas, was feed intake, the
(28:30):
genetic correlation for feedintake, uh, between hay and corn
silage.
They basically tested those two,we'll call it environments, and
they had a high geneticcorrelation.
Again, I'm a little bitskeptical about that data set.
So that's where we started.
That question is where westarted in our, our research
(28:52):
program, our quest to findforage efficient cattle.
We thought the first thing weneeded to ask was exactly that.
Does ranking animals on a, oneof these diets that you can fit
down in one of those.
smaller bunks, you know, inother words, processed, wet,
higher energy, some concentrate.
(29:13):
Uh, most of these studies thathave been done with those, I'll
call them, as you mentioned,mixed diets would be somewhere
in the neighborhood of maybearound 50 percent roughage and
50 percent concentrate, give ortake, okay?
Um, and so we found, uh, seven,we found three experiments
published in the paper.
(29:34):
Addressing your question.
And then we conduct, we'veconducted four experiments of
our own.
Where we fed animals a mixeddiet, like the one I just
described.
For that, uh, I don't know, it'sranged from about maybe a total
of 60 to 90 days.
And then we've fed the sameanimals, uh, uh, food.
(29:55):
strict forage diet for about 90days, uh, 60 to 90 days.
And, and so, so far sevenexperiments.
The correlation for feed intakebetween the two environments, or
the two diets, uh, is has beenmoderate and positive.
Okay?
Now, remember, these are, theseare smaller studies.
(30:18):
These would be anywhere frommaybe, maybe a hundred animals
down to about fifty, fiftyanimals or so, and so we don't
have a genetic correlation.
What we have is a phenotypiccorrelation.
Uh, but the, those correlationsare in the range of 4 to maybe
7.
Okay?
But at least they're positive.
(30:40):
Yeah, and, and, uh, and adecent, generally speaking, the
genetic correlation is going tobe higher than that.
But every, every one of thesestudies, all seven of them, uh,
that correlation has been, uh,positive.
The, our, in, uh, two of ourfour studies, we did it with
cows.
We fed forage for a period andthe mixed diet for a period.
(31:03):
Half the cows started on themixed diet, half started on
forage, the other half startedon Well, we did just the
opposite.
Does that make sense?
So that, so you could sort oftake out the question about
compensatory gain.
Um, and so that's why we didthose that way.
Got, got the exact same answer.
The, the odd part, the thingthat people have maybe a little
(31:27):
trouble with is maybe raise,raise an eyebrow.
Is it the correlation for weightgain in those two environments
or those two diets?
is not related.
Okay, there is no correlation.
Uh, in, in fact, two of thestudies, two of the seven
studies have a negativecorrelation, but the rest of
(31:49):
them, there's no significantcorrelation whatsoever.
Okay.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (31:58):
from podcaster.
Um, and anecdotally, justobserving, um, cattle that we've
raised, genetic, biologicaltypes that I've seen used
throughout the decades.
While there may not be asignificant, um, well, let me go
(32:23):
the other way.
While there may be somecorrelation on intakes, I do
think, again, just from myobservation, not from a
scientific standpoint, I dobelieve that there are cattle
who can, um, Add body conditionin terms of a cow's add fat and
(32:46):
flesh in terms of feedlot steersor heifers when fed a
concentrated diet but when theyhave to get out and work and
walk and move and I don't knowif it is They expend too much
energy doing all the stuff Or ifit is a distance thing due to
structure, feet, whatever thecase may be.
(33:06):
But there seem to me to be linesof cattle that may not eat
anymore in one environment orthe other, but cannot keep
themselves bred, cetera, etcetera, when you get them out on
10 to 15 to 100 acres of, ofgrass.
And that's where I think thatyour productivity standpoint,
and let's admit that, Yourresearch, as exciting as it is
(33:33):
to me, that this is one of thefirst times that we're seeing a
project that is measuringintakes of nothing but dry
forage, hay, Admittedly, thosecows are not in big pastures.
They have to be.
By nature of the beast, they'rein pens.
And so, we may not find thoseeither.
(33:54):
But hopefully, we get a littlecloser to the types that can use
the bugs that God gave them inthe rumen to break those down
and not just have a highconcentrate diet.
But I do think, I think it'sworth that, saying what you said
and, and, uh, yeah, some mayraise eyebrows and say that
doesn't make any sense, but Ithink there's probably practical
(34:16):
explanations for why that is,why those, some of those cattle
may not eat anymore.
Um, but stay in better fleshwhen they're in a feed yard kind
of environment.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29- (34:25):
Yeah, yeah, I, you know, the, the idea
that there's no relationshipbetween forage gain and
concentrate or mixed diet gain,I mean, that's exciting to
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (34:38):
Mm hmm.
Sure.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-20 (34:39):
if, so if there's no relationship,
there's, in all these biologicalmeasurements, there's a bell
curve.
And the idea that it's lined up,the middle of the, the peak of
the bell curve is lined up withzero, suggests that there are
cattle up to the left of zerothat can do neither very well.
(35:01):
There are cattle in the middle,you know, probably about 60
percent of the range, maybe 65percent of the range that are
good at one but not very good atthe other, you know, environment
or diet.
And then there are cattle on theright of the bell curve.
that are good at both.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (35:20):
Right.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-20 (35:21):
and that's the exciting part.
I mean, there, there are cattleout there and we, we see that,
that do well in bothenvironments.
And those are the ones we needto find.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (35:35):
So.
two questions as we try to applywhat it is that that you all are
finding and researching andcontinuing to reply to refine.
Looking down the road, what dowe, what do you hope to have in
terms of tools if the datacontinues to line up, if you
(35:57):
continue to see some of thesecorrelations between traits and
we can finally select for forageutilization efficiency, whether
it be in cows or stockers out ongrass, Flint Hills grass, wheat
pasture in Western Oklahoma,whatever the case may be.
If we can find and select forcattle that are more efficient
(36:17):
on forage, what's that tool looklike?
What's the ideal?
I assume it's going to be an EPDand hopefully we can train
genomics, etc, etc, etc.
I don't want to get people'shopes up too high, but if we
find enough heritability inthese that we can make
directional change.
What will we be selecting forwhen we look for that?
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29 (36:39):
That's an interesting question.
Uh, you know what?
I, I think we already have halfof what, what you're asking
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (36:47):
That was going to be my next
question.
So you go ahead.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-20 (36:50):
So, the idea that seven experiments
in a row show a positivephenotypic correlation for feed
intake suggests to me that wecan be using breed association
dry matter intake, EPDs, now.
And that, and that, again, Ithink that We'd love to have a
(37:14):
genetic correlation for thisquestion, obviously, a better
one.
But, uh, I think it's going towind up being higher than what
we're seeing from a phenotypiccorrelation.
That's just kind of how thosecalculations work.
But, um, what I suggested to agroup here the other day is
that, Okay, so it's too bad wedon't have a camera and we can
(37:38):
show a graph,
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (37:40):
I'm not there yet Dave.
I'm getting I'm closer, but I'mnot Rogan just yet.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-20 (37:45):
you let me know and we'll do this
again when you
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (37:48):
here's what we'll do though, and I'll
let you keep going, but we willlink to that PowerPoint
presentation, if you're willing.
We'll put it here and folks cango to the notes and click it,
uh, because it's, it's greatinfo.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-20 (38:01):
and it's and it's uh also available
on the Beef ImprovementFederation
matt_3_08-29-2024_1504 (38:07):
Perfect.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-202 (38:08):
as well.
But, uh, so for example, uh, I,I think about now, Before we get
too far down this road let mejust say that forage use
efficiency is, is again going tobe part of a complex, uh, you
know, series of decisions thathave to be made, but I think
this could be a big one, butunderstand that the cattle will
(38:33):
be expected to check all theother boxes too.
They'll have to, they'll have tobe fertile, they'll have to have
good feet, they'll have to havegood udders, they'll have to
have docility, on and on.
And so, I get that.
And probably, before we jump offinto this, you know, you'd need
to set the standard right awaythat they have to be fertile and
they need to come in a good bodycondition score.
(38:55):
Whether they eat a lot orwhether they eat a little, you'd
need to set that.
But depending on what a person'sbreeding objective is, again, if
you're trying to control cowcosts, I think, Matt, we ought
to be thinking about, and I'd beinterested to hear what my
genetics colleagues think aboutus using, um, the dry matter
(39:20):
intake EPD as it's availabletoday in combination with the
mature cow body weight.
Okay, I think those together area very powerful tool for someone
to control the appetite and feedcosts in their cow operation,
(39:41):
um, depending again on whattheir breeding objective is.
Well, or they could use it to,to, you know, make progress on
their breeding objectives.
That's, that's how I should saythat.
But let's say, for example, wehave a scatter plot bulls,
which, which I do have in thispresentation, uh, and, and right
(40:01):
down through the middle of whatlooks like somebody kind of
nailed it with a 12 gauge, rightdown through the middle of all
that data is a line that's the,the average mature cow body
weight, EPD.
And right now, the industry isusing mature cow body weight as
a proxy to guess what their feedintake is going to be.
(40:23):
And that is how we are trying toadvise people to control feed
intake or stocking rate in your,in your genetics, current and
future.
Uh, I think we, by adding thedry matter intake EPD, we could
sort of strengthen that effortsubstantially.
(40:44):
What do I mean by that?
Well, if on our scatter plot,the horizontal line through the
middle of all the data, youknow, represents breed average
for dry matter intake EPD.
If you select above, the breedaverage, obviously you're
selecting cattle probably formore growth, but for more
appetite, more daily feedintake.
(41:06):
If you select below that linethat goes through the middle of
the data horizontally, you'reselecting for, you know, reduce,
putting pressure on reducingfeed intake in, in, in those
animals.
And so let's just say you have,you have a set of proven SIREs.
Now when I say proven, the dataI pulled down off the Angus
(41:28):
website I think had to berequired that they were at least
0.
5 accuracy for dry matter intakeEPD and for mature cow weight
EPD.
Okay, so let's say we've got agroup of bulls in there and in
this, uh, in this graph there isa set of bulls up in the top
left corner.
So that means they're belowaverage mature cow weight.
(41:52):
pretty substantially belowaverage.
In fact, these bulls are, andthey're way above breed average
on feed intake.
Now, if we've been able to checkall the other boxes, and you
know, yes, they come in in goodflesh in general, we can say
that we think those daughters ofthose sires are easy fleshing
cows.
(42:12):
But still, why would you dothat?
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (42:15):
Yeah.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-20 (42:16):
Why would you want little cows that
eat more than breed, you know,far more, in this case, far
more, than breed average.
Because you're nearlyguaranteeing yourself, not
guaranteeing, but it's a pretty,there's a pretty strong chance
that post winning performance toyour calves is not gonna be
great, right?
(42:38):
Because there's a very strongcorrelation between growth and
mature cow weight.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (42:43):
But those cows are the picture of
efficiency.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29- (42:46):
well, I mean, that's, that's what we
have assumed up to this point,
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (42:51):
And I bring that up because we, a
month and a half ago, had a.
Big busload of folks from SouthAmerica and they found a cow.
We had them all cornered up in apasture and they were walking
through them and they found thebest cow on the ranch.
And, um, they were scratchingher and taking videos and
perfect at her and a half bodycondition, body condition, full
(43:14):
body conditions score higherthan anybody else.
And, um, she was, she was thecover girl and I looked her up
and she was.
middle to bottom of the pack onEPDs and I looked up her
production records and sheratioed about a 93 on three or
four calves that she'd had and Imean she was a Subpar cow no
(43:38):
other way about now.
She had bred First or second AIand so there's value there.
But yeah, I mean what we thinkwe know about range cow
efficiency like or not might beYou Proven wrong with the
information that you're startingto show us.
And there may, there may be somewho look the part as well.
(44:01):
And if so, by all
squadcaster-2f13_3_ (44:03):
absolutely.
Absolutely.
I mean, what, what, and whatwe're discovering is we, you
know, obviously we get to seethese cattle every day, twice a
day, in fact, and, and there aresome, there's some cows that
look the part and they're, andas everybody knows, there's some
cows that, Just they're not avery good phenotype and are
extremely efficient and just theopposite.
It's just hard to tell bylooking
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (44:25):
but let me and I I shouldn't have
interrupted you there becauseyou have a great point in case
people can't go to thatPowerPoint presentation and
look, basically, I think whatyou're saying is in that bottom
right quadrant, you have bigcows, at least bigger than
average.
that are likely and hopefullyraising big calves that go onto
(44:49):
the feed yard and produce bigcarcasses and they're actually
eating less than the average andhopefully as long as, as you
said, as long as they're able tostay in the right body condition
to breed and do their job, um,we may, this idea that we got to
select for little cows may notnecessarily be right from an
(45:12):
intake standpoint, correct?
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29- (45:14):
yeah, I think we've, there are
efficient
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (45:16):
can do both.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-202 (45:17):
in that bottom right quadrant.
That's right.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (45:20):
Okay.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2 (45:20):
And, and, you know, think about the
extra income from a cold cowstandpoint all by itself.
I mean,
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (45:26):
Oh yeah, especially today.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29 (45:28):
today, you know, 300, 400 pounds of
additional cold cow and ourweight to sell is tremendous.
So, yeah, that.
I think we can be doing that nowand using those two genetic
tools in combination, I thinkright now is a powerful tool.
(45:51):
they, we need more phenotypesreported on those two traits in
our industry.
And I think, you know, this typeof information, this potential
use of it, really underlines theneed for more of that, more of
that data.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (46:08):
Yeah.
And, you know, you mentionedyour proven sires level of
accuracy of a 0.
5.
You know, number one, it's hardto find a lot of proven sires
with dry matter intake data, uh,because that is.
Relatively expensive to get,you've got to have a Grow Safe
or C Lock or who, whomever,whatever brand you choose,
(46:30):
you've got to measure that feedand submit those phenotypes.
And, um, uh, while we havelooked at doing that on our
outfit, um, I have told myselfuntil I know there is a very
good correlation between thatbunk fed, you know, 50 percent
concentrate, actually less here,but.
(46:51):
better than what they would geton pasture related back to the
forage utilization efficiency.
I'm not there yet.
I don't feel like we can, canafford to measure that.
But the other thing that'sdisheartening to me is you go
over to the mature cow weight innearly any breed, including
(47:12):
Angus, unfortunately, and It'spretty sparse as well.
Um, for numerous reasons, but,um, you know, part of which I
don't know that we always wantto admit just how much our cows
weigh, but if what you'retelling us is accurate, as long
as she's Eating at or less thanthe average.
(47:33):
Um, I hate to say the bigger,the better, but there's not as
much of a, negative concept onthese bigger, mature cow
weights, uh, as long as they'redoing everything else they need
to do well.
But yeah, that's the need fordata in both of those traits.
One is very cheap, matureheight, weight, and body
conditions don't cost a thing.
They're in the shoot already asyou're pregging them or
(47:55):
whatever, right there at weaningtime.
Uh, My, hope is that, uh, allbreeders will start submitting
that.
The more expensive one, thetougher one to get at is dry
matter intake.
But, uh, but we do, thanks togenomics and core, you know,
things that they have been ableto do there.
Uh, we can, we can get these,this information even without
(48:16):
necessarily investing to, uh, torecord all that intake data.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2 (48:20):
it's gradually getting better as time
goes by.
And that's good.
Now, the second part of whatthis looks like, that was your
original question, uh, I thinkactually.
is not that difficult.
Now, yes, if we can't get amature cow body weight
phenotype, uh, turned in, youknow, it, it may be, but I mean,
(48:45):
you know, drier, uh, years, moredrought, more heat is going to
increase people's interest inthis kind of work, Right,
Because, yeah, so, But what I'mgetting at is that, um, if
there's no correlation betweenforage intake and concentrate
(49:05):
diet or mixed diet intake, forcrying out loud, weigh the
animals when you turn them out,give them 70 to 90 days and
weigh them again on grass,right?
I mean, how difficult will thatbe to generate?
Um, and so, you know, perhaps ifyou're a seed stock industry, a
(49:29):
producer that has a breedingobjective to find and improve
cattle that are very efficientat forage utilization, what you
need to do, I think, is identifya time period where it's logical
and practical to do that foragetest.
My suggestion would be not to doit during the lush grass growth.
(49:52):
time of the year.
Do it like in the fall when theforages mature and becoming
senescent or do it through thewinter or something.
Now, you know, the moreconcentrate you're having to
supplement those cattle, themore you kind of, uh, muddy the
data set.
because, you know, you don'tknow if the cow that's chasing
(50:14):
the cake feeder is getting 10pounds of supplement when she's
only supposed to be getting two,and that's why she performs
better.
But for your replacementheifers, you know, if you can
find a time of the year whereyou have moderate to below
moderate forage quality, I thinkall we need is a series of data,
(50:35):
uh, to, and yes, we need to lookat the genetic correlation.
for that weight gain comparedto, let's say, a bull test diet
weight gain.
And we're, we're going to try toget that done here in the next
couple of years.
But, I think,
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (50:50):
to make sure I understand all
you're saying is, you're goingto assume that, for this type
of, of, I guess, dumbed down,uh, forage test, you're going to
assume that everybody intakesthe same.
And let's just find the onesthat gained on a single Low
quality forage out in thepasture from the time they were
(51:12):
turned out until the time theycame into the feed yard or
whatever the case may be, andjust make all the assumptions
that everybody ate the same andwe will make directional change
just because we find the onesthat stay in, that are able to
convert grass into meat, in thiscase, or flesh.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-20 (51:31):
For the most part, I think you've
got it there.
But I, yes, I think all we needis to record a phenotype for
moderate quality forage
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (51:40):
With
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29- (51:40):
gain.
But, Matt, what I'm saying is,rather than doing an efficiency
test, we use the genetic toolsavailable for feed intake, for
the feed intake piece.
Yes.
Yeah.
and, and we can use that pieceto control intake or cost.
And then we can use the averagedaily gain on moderate to low
(52:02):
quality forage to find animalsactually that can perform on
forage.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (52:08):
Well, it's pretty exciting stuff.
Um, especially if we are able tofind some of these genetic
correlations that enable us touse something that's a little
more cost effective to collectin terms of intakes on a, on a
bunk type fed ration andextrapolate those out to the
(52:29):
pastures and the ranges across.
What, uh, what has surprised youthe most?
As you've looked at this dataand as you've gone through this
project, what's something thatyou thought you were pretty
confident that you'd find thatmaybe you didn't.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29- (52:46):
Well, the, the lack of correlation for
weight gain on those twodifferent diets was a surprise,
no doubt about it.
Um, so that would probably benumber one.
Uh, the second thing is, is apaper we published several years
ago, Matt, and it's kind ofunrelated to the current
conversation, but yet, but yetit's important piece as we're
(53:10):
considering how to, you know,select cattle for, uh, ranch
profitability.
And that is, and I know you'veseen this data, but we evaluated
the Superior Livestock VideoAuctions data and discovered
that, you know, We use projecteddelivery weight on un weaned
(53:31):
lots of calves, un weaned salelots.
And we discovered that thoseprofessional superior
representatives stoppedexpecting those calves weaning
weight to increase in 2006 and2007.
And since then it's been flat.
(53:51):
And so once we, once we sawthat, I got to looking for other
data sets to see if that wasgoing on in the seed stock
industry.
And so the Angus websitepublishes phenotypic, trend, in
Bulls and Heifers and so doesthe Charolais website.
(54:12):
And if you plot those twophenotypic trends over time,
they both show the exact same,uh, uh, trend.
And that is, as time goes by,uh, those weights, those weaning
weights are stabilizing and theystabilize.
Actually, maybe it started tostabilize, actually, maybe a
(54:33):
little bit before 2006 and 2007.
So what's the implication?
Why is that important?
Why was it a surprise?
Well, you know, if you look atthe at the genetic trend for
selection for yearling weightgrowth, we just, we continue to
head north, right?
Very aggressively.
But if, if you are a rancherthat sells your calves at
(54:56):
weaning and your weaning weighthas not changed for 15 years,
uh, you probably need to reevaluate your priorities in, in
selection criteria and makesure, you know, obvious, the
obvious, I guess, sign would bethat you need to be trying to
control cost more than trying toincrease, uh, uh, weaning weight
(55:18):
for, at least.
So that, that was a big surpriseand continues to be, but the
other side of that is we takethose same calves, maybe that
don't wean any, don't weigh anymore weaning now than they did
back in 2006, 2007, and we takethem to the feed yard and take
(55:38):
the lid off the environment and,and they just explode.
So, yeah, if, if you're, if yourtrend has stopped increasing
over time, You know, it reallypoints to the need to develop,
uh, some sort of a, you know, away to capture that improved
(55:58):
genetic value of those postweaning traits.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (56:02):
Well, at 55 minutes, um, into this
supposed to be one hour podcast,you just brought up a, uh, a
topic that I think I couldprobably have a second two hour
podcast on.
Um, but I don't want to leavefolks hanging too far because
that, that is a discussion thatI've had with a few folks over
(56:26):
the last couple of years.
And.
As I have thought about this andlooked at those same genetic
trends mapped over the actualweaning weights and I think
Superior's data would be evenmore indicative of what we see
on the, in the hills of, ofcommercial cow calf America.
(56:47):
I guess my question would be,who is at fault for that?
In terms of us having highergenetic trends and more
capabilities of those calves toweigh more and yet they don't.
And I would say it's mothernature.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2 (57:04):
that was my point.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (57:06):
Yeah.
And, and what we have done, no,you, you said it perfectly.
I just think, because sometimesnot all of us figure, not all of
us get this right off the bat,but the, the engine is big
enough to make 750 and 850pound.
Weaning weight calves.
And yet, there are not very manyof us that are willing to feed
(57:31):
that cow and or that pair to getthem to that.
And so consequently, and this iswhere this is where I may say
some things that'll either getme in trouble or make people
really scratch their head.
I don't know that we as anindustry realize what that cow
(57:52):
is doing in an attempt to meetthe genetic, ability that she
has.
When she's limited by MotherNature and can't eat even in the
most lush of forage environmentsfor that two or three, four
month period, like you said,that it's probably good enough
or at least close for her tomeet that, um, genetic
(58:14):
potential, but the other nine or10 months, it's not.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-2 (58:17):
Yep.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (58:18):
I think she's doing some things
like Not getting bred, likesloughing an embryo, so many of
the things that she didn't usedto do.
Because she didn't still think,hey, I've got to go farther.
I've got to make more milk.
I've got to grow more.
Uh, this cat, you know, all ofthese different things.
I worry that sometimes we'veovershot the runway.
(58:38):
And depending on your costs offeed and the value of that
carcass, if we go clear to theend,
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-202 (58:48):
Mm hmm.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (58:50):
fix that one of two ways.
You either quit pushing the edgeof the envelope for weaning and
yearling and all this outputs.
Or you say, you know what,feed's not that expensive.
I'm going to give her everythingshe needs.
And, and we've got camps on bothsides of that equation that have
said this is the answer.
I don't know which one is right.
But I do know that if you don'tknow, do one or the other, um,
(59:14):
we are left with a set of cowsthat's A little thinner, a
little higher open rates, um,you know, all the stuff that we
talk about in the hallways atevery BIF meeting and everything
else because these cows knowwhat they're supposed to be
doing.
These calves know what they'resupposed to be doing and when we
(59:36):
don't have enough nutrients toget it done.
The wheels start falling off.
Either they get sick more often,they don't breed, whatever the
case may be, and, and, yeah,it's, again, it's another hour
to two hour conversation, um,but I think some of the work
that you all are doing there is,is, is showing us that, um, the
(59:58):
genetics may be there, it'sjust, do, Mother Nature and, and
producers, Give them what theyneed to, to actually express
that.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29- (01:00:08):
yeah, it's again, it's a complex, you
know, biological system,ecosystem, however you want to
look at it, and uh, it's, it's areal challenge to come up with
all of those answers we wouldneed to determine the factors
that influence their efficiencyin a, you you know, no holds bar
(01:00:33):
kind of feed environment.
But, uh,
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (01:00:35):
Sure.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29-20 (01:00:37):
the other thing I guess I'd say,
Matt, the last thing I'll saythat has really surprised me.
That was your question.
What's really surprised me.
And I mentioned this out at theBIF meeting this year.
We published a paper here acouple of years ago where we, we
sort of proved, I've sort ofproved myself wrong.
(01:00:58):
And that is
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (01:00:59):
it when that happens.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29- (01:01:00):
Yeah, well, turns out I do that a lot.
Um, wind up, wind up beingwrong.
But, uh, um, We did a very, andI'll just cut to the chase here,
but we did a very intenseexperiment where we looked at
the amount of feed intakerequired to maintain a lactating
(01:01:21):
cow's body weight.
And so, bottom line is we put a,and it, we only used 24 cows for
this study because it was sointensive, but we put cows in a
stall barn and we fed them acertain amount of feed.
weighed them every week.
If they gained weight, wedropped the amount of feed she
got.
If she lost weight, we bumpedthe amount of feed she got.
(01:01:42):
Well, a hundred and, I don'tknow, a hundred and five, a
hundred and ten days later, weknew exactly how much feed it
took for each one of thosetwenty four cows to maintain
their body weight, okay?
Body weight and body condition.
These were lactating cows.
We also milked them every threeweeks like we normally do on
these studies.
(01:02:03):
Okay, so what did we learn?
Well, the National Academy ofSciences, Engineering, and
Medicine has published in printfor many years now that if you
continue to select for growthand milk production, you're
going to increase maintenanceenergy requirements.
Okay, well that makes sense.
Holstein cows have highermaintenance energy requirements
(01:02:26):
than beef cows.
Uh, but in our study, uh, weactually found that cows that
gave more milk and were able tomaintain their body weight and
body condition on less feed hadlower maintenance requirement.
Exactly the opposite of what theNational Academy of Sciences
(01:02:49):
book says.
And I thought we'll never getthis paper published, but we
did.
We were, we were able to get itpublished.
So apparently there are otherscientists out there that at
least agreed with themethodology that we used.
And actually might have been,might have been thinking that,
in fact, I know, I know onescientist is one of, one of the,
(01:03:11):
the world's best beef cattleenergetics people, and he'd been
kind of telling me all along, Imean, his idea was that in a
beef animal, you know, you don'thave 120 pounds of milk.
pounds of milk.
You have, you have cows thatgive 10 pounds of milk and cows
that might give up to 40 poundsof milk.
And his point was that range inproduction is not going to be
(01:03:35):
enough to affect, uh,maintenance energy requirements
where we're at right now.
Um, Yeah, maybe if we selectedfor milk for a hundred years we
might get there, but anyway atthe end of the day it looked to
us like, and this is what we putin that paper, cows that had,
had lower maintenancerequirement, well cows that were
(01:03:57):
able to produce more milk andrequire less feed had more
energy left over.
once they took care of theirmaintenance to do the productive
things.
Well, productive is gain weightand produce milk.
And so they had more energy leftover to do that.
It's not that they had highermaintenance, it's that they had
(01:04:19):
lower maintenance and thereforeextra energy to do the
productive things.
So that was pretty cool and itwas a big surprise.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (01:04:27):
Yeah, that's I mean, I just you name
it these these mindsets we haveabout low maintenance females.
Also quite often being lowproduction females, in terms of
weight or milk or whatever thecase may be.
Um, their actual net energy formaintenance might actually be
higher than the productive ones.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29- (01:04:49):
Yeah,
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (01:04:50):
It's just that those productive ones
may need a little more feed toactually produce.
So, yeah, when you say it's acomplex ecosystem or a complex
biological system, um,
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29- (01:05:02):
Yeah.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (01:05:05):
I mean, that's, that's why cattle
production, that's why seedstock, genetic production and
evaluation and selection and,and even management decisions,
how much and whether to feed ornot.
Um, that's why they're so tough.
That's why you can't just lookat an EPD and say his yearling
(01:05:28):
weight is, you know, Plus 100.
And so they're going to weighthis.
There's so many things besidesjust environment feed and
everything else that go intothat.
And all we can do, I think, iscattle producers that are either
feeding the system or feedingthe progeny out of these
genetics, uh, is, is stayabreast of trends and research
(01:05:49):
and things like what you'redoing there and, and try to
figure out tools that help usget where we're going.
So.
It's been a great discussion,and I'm serious.
I'm gonna I'm gonna put a link.
I hope if it's all right withyou a link to the one of those
PowerPoint presentations, eitherthe 5 80 conference or B.
I.
F.
Or which whichever one you thinkwould would be, um, the best for
(01:06:13):
that.
And I may even also put youremail in there if you don't mind
and see if anybody has furtherquestions to reach out.
But yeah, this has been a greatdiscussion.
It's got a little deep at timesin terms of some of the some of
the genetics information forfolks that maybe aren't in that
business.
But but hopefully goodinformation to think through for
all of us.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29- (01:06:34):
Yeah.
Well, I appreciate theopportunity to share some of the
work that we're doing.
It's exciting and look forwardto, you know, making progress as
we go along.
matt_3_08-29-2024_150429 (01:06:43):
You bet.
Well, we appreciate being partof it and, uh, appreciate you
sharing that and, uh, yeah,we'll, we'll keep abreast of
findings in the future.
squadcaster-2f13_3_08-29- (01:06:52):
Thank you, Matt.
Microphone (Yeti Stereo (01:06:54):
Thanks again for listening to
practically ranching brought toyou by Dale banks, Angus, as
we've said before, if you likewhat we're doing here, give us a
five star rating, drop us acomment and be sure to follow
us, to hear future episodes.
As soon as they're out.
And be sure to make plans tojoin us for our annual bull
sale, november 23rd at the ranchNorthwest of Eureka, Kansas.
(01:07:16):
If you'd like to receive acatalog, drop me a note at
mattperrier@dalebanks.com.
God bless each of you.
We'll talk to you again in twoweeks.
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