# 63 - Bradley Wolter, From Sows to Cows

Bradley Wolter is a relative newcomer to the beef business, but has certainly been a student of the industry since his move from a successful career in the swine industry.
In this episode, we talk about his tenure with Maschhoffs, one of the largest family-owned pork producers in the United States. We talk about data collection, management strategy, operational efficiency and the major differences between pork and beef production systems and cultures.
Bradley and his family now own and operate Windy Hill Meadows, an Angus seedstock and consumer-focused beef business in Aviston, IL.

Episode Transcript

Microphone (Yeti Stereo (00:04):
Thanks for joining us for episode 63 of
practically ranching.
I'm Matt Perrier and we arehere.
Thanks to Dalebanks AngusEureka, Kansas.
We're finalizing our catalog forthe upcoming sale.
November 23rd, they should beprinted soon.
If you'd like to receive one.
Go to Dalebanks.com and drop usa request.

(00:24):
While you're there, fill out ourthree minute survey on genetic
selection and trait prioritiesfor your cow herd, and you'll
even receive a hundred dollarscredit toward a bull purchase
for that time that you spend.
You know, it's evident thatwhile we named this thing,
practically ranching.
A few of my episodes may warranta name, change to

(00:46):
philosophically ranching orsomething similar.
It's obvious that I sometimes goa little deeper into an issue or
a concept than a straight to thepoint cattlemen should.
And this episode would probablyqualify as one of those
discussions.
Bradley Walter is a cattlemantoday.
But he spent over two decades inthe pork industry.

(01:09):
And during this, his secondcareer in the beef business,
he's trying to use the thingsthat he learned from pigs and
apply them to our beef model.
He's learned that it's no smallfeat.
So as I'm prone to do, I took usway off track at several points
in this podcast.
And I've thought I'd just editout those unnecessary portions

(01:31):
and get down to my normal hourepisode length.
The problem was.
I couldn't do it.
Throughout this discussion.
Bradley continued to sharelittle nuggets of wisdom and
experiences that I just couldn'tbear to take out.
So you're getting the full load.
We cover applied researchchallenges and animal

(01:51):
agriculture comparisons andcontrasts between the beef and
pork industries.
The lack of data collection andtechnology use by cattlemen
management strategies, businessprinciples, confined cow
feeding, and even the diseconomies of scale in livestock
production.
Now Bradley shares early on thatwhile he's always been

(02:12):
interested in research and dataanalysis.
His real passion is applyingthat analyze data to answer
questions and problems on farmsand ranches.
And that's what this episode Ihope we'll do.
Help us all as Bradley says,chase the Why.
As we try to find solutions tochallenges in our agricultural

(02:35):
businesses.
So, thanks again for listeningand enjoy this conversation with
Bradley Wolter.

matt_2_10-14-2024_120415 (02:43):
Well, I didn't even pay attention this
weekend.
Did U of I football, uh, Werethey victorious or did they have
a game this weekend?

bradley_2_10-14-202 (02:52):
victorious.
Yeah, pretty exciting finishactually.
Yep, they, they were victorious.
We're off, we got a good, goodthing going here.
So does,, how about K State,huh?
Those guys are pulling it outtoo.

matt_2_10-14-2024_120415 (03:03):
it was kind of the same story.
We, uh, it was a nail biter tothe end, but, uh, somehow we, we
got past neon Deion and theprimetime cast in Boulder.
And yeah, it was, it it's, it'sfun to see these ag schools
doing as well as they are.

bradley_2_10-14-2024_12041 (03:19):
Yes, no question about it.

matt_2_10-14-2024_120415 (03:21):
So speaking of U of I give us just
a little bit of your history.
And, most of our cattle folkswon't necessarily recognize you
from the beef industrystandpoint.
But the reason I have you onhere is what you did throughout
grad school and then immediatelyafter.
So give us a feel for where yougot to prior to today, and then

(03:46):
we'll see how it all fitstogether today.

bradley_2_10-14-2024_1204 (03:48):
Yeah, Matt, I, uh, so I'm, I'm an
Illinois farm kid grew up, inSouthern Illinois, uh, south of,
St.
Louis by about an hour and, uh,grew up in diversified in the
diversified grain and livestockfarm.
And my grandma had 400 layinghens.
My grandpa had 30 registeredPolled Hereford cows and my dad

(04:10):
had about 60 sows on pasture.
So that was the livestock, alittle bit of everything and got
me exposed to the consumer.
We took those eggs to town everyFriday.
I remember very, very vividly.
Perhaps a generation behind mostand, you know, in that way, I
remember the three on a treeChevy taking those eggs to town

(04:31):
and, and the, you know, theconsumer, uh, interaction that
my grandmother had.
So that's the, the, the coreorigins and my interest in
livestock.
But we had row cropping as well,but it was, you know, small
scale.
And then of course there was an80s farm crisis in there and
that, uh, created a lot oftrepidation on my dad's part,

(04:51):
um, to do much more than, putpigs on a, on a part time basis.
So, I grew up, uh, primarilywith pigs, just developed a real
passion for the animals, reallyliked the hands on aspect and,
um, just had, always had a realitch to understand how we could
be better.
Um, how we could make more withless, uh, really.

(05:14):
You know, was inspired as an FFAmember and, you know, really
just had a passion for how do wefeed the world?
How do we do that in a moreresponsible way?
All those things is those of usthat grew up in in agriculture.
I think, you know, most don'tunderstand how passionate we are
about that.
So that led me, uh, to skipschool one day.

(05:35):
My FFA advisor allowed me totake a day off and I went to
something called the Grange, ameeting in Southern Illinois
where the University of IllinoisExtension folks and gentleman by
the name of Dr.
Bob Easter spoke and heenlightened me in the world of
swine nutrition and I thoughtthere's exactly the guy I want

(05:58):
to become someday.
And, uh, make a long storyextremely short.
he went on to be president ofthe university, uh, but, uh, to
his credit, uh, Dr.
Easter really got me engaged atthe university.
Went there after high school.
Um, got there, got theopportunity, to not only be a
part of the AGR house, but, uh,to work on the university swine

(06:20):
farm that led me to arelationship with a gentleman by
the name of Dr.
Mike Ellis, who oversaw, SwineGenetics and Breeding Program at
the University, and, justsuffice it to say, about nine
years later, I left theUniversity of Illinois with,,
uh, degrees in, uh, with, withbachelor's, master's, and, and a
Ph.
D.

(06:41):
degree, and, and my realinterest has always been to be
at the applied end of things.
And so while I'm a guy that'salways chasing the why, why
something works, and how do wemake it better, um, my real
interest has always been to beat the applied end and making
sure that, you know, whatquestions we're answering from a

(07:01):
research perspective, um, hasapplication actually makes the
production model better.
And, uh, along that, thatjourney in my advanced degree
there at the university, I, uh,feel extremely fortunate to have
come across, the Mashoff family.
They're also Southern Illinoisnatives, and, uh, in the, in the

(07:22):
late 90s, as I was, uh, youknow, starting in the graduate
school, there was a newtechnology, new concept really,
I would probably stop short ofcalling it technology, but this
concept of growing pigs fromweaning to market or wean to
finish in the same barn was abrand new concept.

(07:43):
There were a couple of thesebarns, you know, basically it's
a finishing barn, but it wasaccommodating, um, you know, in
terms of the feeders and penningand, and so it, it, Uh, it
accommodated, uh, these, these14 pound weaned pigs, um, but
there were more questions thananswers, right?
What's the perfect environmentfrom a thermal regulation point

(08:03):
of view?
What, you know, you got a 14pound pig, what's the feeder
space requirement for thatversus a 300 and Um, you know,
35 pound pig.
And again, here, here's thesame, same barn environment that
has to accommodate that widerange of biological growth.
And, and so I thought that waspretty interesting to, to get at

(08:24):
some of those questions and, andnot only from a biological point
of view, you know, let the pigtell us what was optimum.
also to apply the economicthesis to it.
And say you know what, what'sthe right outcome for the food
supply chain.
And so I was very fortunate thatcame across the Mashoff family.

(08:44):
They, they had just built one ofthese farms.
And, and they sort of, you knowgave me open, free access to, to
work.
build on the data that I wascollecting, um, at the
university and actually take itto the field, uh, do controlled
publishable.
I've got, uh, uh, several ofthese papers published in the
Journal of Animal Science.
Again, they're dated now, uh,but, but back in the day.

(09:06):
And, and the point, I guess, youknow, trying to emphasize is
just always working at theapplied end, you know, with
passionate and deepunderstanding of the biology,
but not stopping there.
putting the financial context tothe numbers and, and ultimately
determining, you know, what'sbest for the food system in the
long term.
And, uh, I was just passionateabout that, came across the

(09:27):
Mashoff family in that process,as I've said, and then, uh, when
I was done, they had an interestin me joining their business,
uh, which was about, uh, youknow, about twenty some thousand
sows at the time, and, and, uh,with with the constrained, if
you will, to Southern Illinois,at least that's where they were

(09:48):
with the build of that business.
two brothers, Ken and, and Dave,who, who, did make it through
the, the farm crisis, the 80s.
I've got to give them a lot ofcredit.
They came out of school in 79and 81, respectively, and formed
a partnership and had thesupport of their parents, uh, in
some ways as well.
But, but those guys really, uh,grew a business very

(10:09):
successfully through a verydifficult time.
Very conservative folks.
Again, we grew up in the samegeography.
We sort of shared that incommon.
Uh, in 2000 and, and two, I wentto work for the Mashoffs
full-time with the, the chargeof overseeing all things
technical.
So again, I had done the, theresearch I had, you know,

(10:30):
learned the economic models and,and principles of, financials
and, in, in my.
prior life.
And now I wanted to see, could Ireally put it to work?
And while I was trained by ageneticist, I would tell you
that most of my work focused on,you know, the biology of growth.
I ended up always following mystudies through into commercial

(10:50):
plants and took carcass measuresall the way down to 72 point
primal dissections.
And so I've been blessed, youknow, to really see The entire
pork industry, from, from startto finish and, and really
understand marginal economicvalues of the entire supply
chain, throughout my career.
And, and, uh, we grew that, thatcompany from, you know, those

(11:12):
20, 000 South and SouthernIllinois, at our peak in, in,
uh, 2012, we had about 230, 000sows in 13 states.
We grew the business largelythrough acquisition, but we did
have some organic, uh, you know,new facility growth as well.
Um, and so we spent about adecade growing a business on a

(11:35):
little over 20 percentcompounded annual growth rate.
And at one point, we actuallysought to diversify, uh, into,
uh, into poultry.
And, uh, we owned a GMP, uh,poultry company, which would,
many folks perhaps listening tothe podcast may identify with
"Just Bare CHicken.".
And so that was the, uh, it wasa, it was, a family owned

(11:58):
company that we acquired.
They were, it was important tothem that family continues to
own and operate.
And we own that for about 3years until which time we sold
it to our largest customer,which was JBS or their poultry
business, of course, isPilgrim's Pride.
Um, and, uh, you know, Comingalong, uh, while I was at the
mash offs, you know, we, we did,uh, one of the things I have a

(12:20):
real interest in is geneticimprovement.
And, uh, you know, I feel verystrongly that, uh, you know, an
animal business is only as goodas the animal.
And so, from a profitabilitypoint of view, it all starts
with the genetic potential ofthe animal, and then our job as
animal husbandry folks is justto, you know, create as good, a

(12:43):
possible environment through ourmanagement to realize its
potential.
And so, we, we did developcustom, uh, lines of, of
animals, uh, specific for oursystem and what our overall
endpoint objective was in termsof carcass merit.
And that was a part of theprocess as well.
So I, I, I, you know, had theopportunity to, to, to be

(13:05):
involved in a lot of differentthings.
Throughout the 20, uh, 21 yearsthat I was at the mash offs, uh,
ultimately stepped away, uh, uh,retirement.
If you will, we can talk alittle bit about what evolved.
I'm not retirement.
Doesn't sound like what I doevery day, but, it was,
bittersweet, as you can imagine,to step away from a business

(13:25):
that, you know, I've, theMashoffs are family to me and
will continue to be at the samepoint in time.
Um, my wife and I have apassionate interest, as you now
know, in the beef cattle arena.
And I'll maybe step back alongthe time course and say there
was really two factors that gotme involved and interested in
beef.
Um, Uh, One was, uh, my, mychildren and their 4 H projects

(13:48):
and, and, uh, you've probablyheard me say that it was
important to Kimberly and I thatwe create a work camp for kids.
And so we've, we've, uh, we'vecertainly done that.
It's become a work camp forparents too I found out.
But, um, it's, uh, we, we, westarted that project, uh, just
purely with the show end ofthings.
And then as I.

(14:09):
got into both pork and poultryas I mentioned.
At that same time, I had athought that perhaps we needed
to be, uh, we really started tosee ourselves at the Mashoffs as
a protein company, and uh, Ithought, you know.
Maybe I should go ahead andstart to think about creating
the beef protein.
So I, I began an investmentthesis in beef genetics and

(14:31):
started to build a system herein Southern Illinois to produce
beef and, and it's become a realpassion and, and, you know, I've
really found the industry hasreally just become a pursuit of
mine to be completely honest.
But that's kind of the, the twopoint origin there, you know,
raising kids and I just don'tthink there's a better way to do
it than with beef.
With animal projects and withanimals as a part of, and now,

(14:54):
you know, building the businesshas sort of become what we're
about as a family.
long, windy answer to a verysimple question.

matt_2_10-14-2024_120415 (15:01):
No, it's well, there's no such thing
as a simple question on thispodcast, because the folks I
like to get on here, likeyourself have a lot of different
experiences and, everybody hasgotten to today via a different
route.
And I think we when we hearthose stories and, and
explanations of why we thinklike we do or act like we do or

(15:22):
react like we do.
I think it helps us all.
So let's stick for right now.
And I want to get into your beefventure but during that 20 or 21
year period, you can even tackon your work in grad school, you
worked a lot with data.
And the outcomes that came fromthat analysis.

(15:45):
And you also said that youappreciated being able to put
some practical application andsee that actually come into
effect as well.
What surprised you most fromwhat you saw in the data and
then also flip over to, did thattranslate to, or was there
something different from theboots on the ground logistical
standpoint that, that you reallylearned and surprised you during

(16:07):
that time of, of seeing it putinto practical application?

bradley_2_10-14-2024_1204 (16:11):
Yeah, that's a really good question,
Matt.
maybe set this up a little bit.
At the time, this is, you know,late 90s, the university farms
were, were becoming inadequate,right?
So, I'm going to take you backto a time the pig industry, uh,
was, was really struggling.
In, in the early days ofvertical integration and
scaling, right?

(16:32):
So we were, that particulartime, we were, you know, 1, 200
sow farms that were essentially,single site production, you
know, those were the big ones,right?
The 1, 200 sow farms that werefinishing animals all the way
through then on a single site,and, we could spend an entire
Conversation on pig disease.
I won't do that, but justsuffice it to say that we

(16:55):
learned we needed to get tomultiple site production.
And as we went to multiple siteproduction, which is, you know,
sows on one farm.
Weaner pigs or nursery age pigson another and then finishers on
another, you know, you had toget to a certain size and scope
to make those fixed costs,leverageable, et cetera.
And so, as we did that, youknow, the economies of scale,

(17:15):
the industry started tovertically integrate, apply
specialization and all thosethings that we know, um, you
know, are part of, of that,scaling, if you will, economies
of scale model, the types ofquestions you start to get as an
industry scales were no longeranswerable in small scale

(17:37):
university farms, or at leastthere was a missing step in
terms of validating what we werediscovering in university
setting.
And, and so I just feel veryfortunate that, you know, that
was.
You know, that was where Ibecame very passionate and
intrigued.
And we were in the state ofIllinois, there was funds that

(17:58):
are now no longer available, butthe first year I was in graduate
school, they were called CFARfund.
And those funds were targetingapplied research.
And so I had, uh, you know, justa passionate, again, I, I'm a
farm kid.
What, what matters is, did thefarm get better?
And so, here I'm in graduateschool and I'm trying to work

(18:19):
out, you know, what are theresearchable questions?
And most important before we gotto the questions is what could I
do to get the farm better?
And I had the opportunity to goafter CFAR dollars to fund my
master's and that's where we,,found the source of funding and
I wanted to, again, take thequestions to where, they needed

(18:42):
answered, which was in thecommercial settings.
Uh, the university farms werenot the same farms that the
industry was constructing at thetime.
And so, while I did a lot ofwork, don't get me wrong, during
my, my advanced degree programsat the university farms, sort of
basic for an applied guy, themajority of the work that, that,

(19:03):
you know, I've, I've done,Published in journals would have
been done in the commercialsector and at large scale.
So, for example, a typical weanto finish trial, um, that would
have looked at, let's say,feeder space allocation and the
university environment wouldhave involved, you know, 80 or
90 pigs on a good day.
And, uh, you know, in acommercial context that I was

(19:26):
doing, I worked with UnitedAnimal Health in Sheridan
Indiana.
We use their facilities.
Of course, I've alreadymentioned the Mashoffs.
Um, I was.
you know, keen to duplicate,which starts to get at the
question that you asked.
I wanted to see repeatability ofresults.
Of course, any good scientist islooking not only to answer the
question, but see that theanswer is repeated.

(19:48):
Um, and, um, and so we, youknow, did that at scale and in
multiple environments thatstarted to begin to validate
the, you know, designs offacilities, the genetic
potential of the animals at thattime.
Again, when you're, when you'relooking at the genetic potential
of animals in a, in a perfectenvironment, you get one answer.

(20:10):
And when you look at thoseanimals under the realities of
the environment they're growingin, you get another.
And so, you know, I just becamereally interested in what is
that model for research, gettinganswers to the applied producer.
What does that need to look likein the long term?
And I think your 2nd questionwas around, you know, what were

(20:32):
some of the things I learned andchallenges I had is sort of what
I heard and, you know, The firstis to get that data is hard.
Um, and, and so this, at thetime, I couldn't do it today,
but at the time, there was a lotof, uh, you know, 3.
30, 4 in the morning departuresto get, two and a half hours to

(20:54):
Central Indiana weekly, uh, toget serial weights on pigs in a
commercial setting or down toCasey, Illinois, which is about
an hour and a half.
to get these commercial weights.
I mean, physically get theanimals.
We had to design our own scale.
Nobody believe it or not.
Sounds crazy.
But, we hadn't, you know,engineered pen scales.
They were all individual animalscales.
And of course that was, youknow, when you start talking

(21:15):
about thousands of animals, Italked about the 80 or 90
versus, you know, I would havetrials that usually had about
2000 pigs on them individually.
And so, you know, to get goodserial weight, so I could, you
know, Model curves and thingslike that, you know, took
multiple wings.
And so we actually cut sectionsof the floor out.
I learned how to cut slats, youknow, and put load cells and in

(21:40):
an actual pin in the barn, um,and design and above hanging,
uh, you know, I beam scale,basically, um, in those
commercial settings.
So.
Uh, you know, today I thinkabout where we are with
technology and, you know, ofcourse, I was still writing,
weights on a sheet of paper,but, but, you know, now with
wireless technology and just thepace at which technologies come

(22:04):
and it becomes easier, but it,Really taught me that a you can,
I mean, you can overcome anychallenge that's out there.
Um, you know, you've got to beresilient, persistent, creative,
you know, those data won't cometo you.
but, but you can go get thedata.
And, uh, but, you know, it's,it's, it's not, it's not.

(22:30):
It's not easy, and itdefinitely, definitely taught me
that, but I remember at the timepeople, you know, a lot of
naysayers thinking that wasunsustainable, um, the way we,
we went about that, and we, webuilt the business model out of
it, not in the way that theuniversity made money, but in
the way that we put, you know, astudent team together, um, you

(22:50):
know, worked through thelogistics and, and figured out a
sustainable way to do it and,and still made it to class most
of the time.

matt_2_10-14-2024_120415 (22:59):
I've spoken like a, a true college
kid with three, three separatedegrees.
So translate some of that overto the beef industry.
And there are so many things tounpack.
I mean, your comment ofnaysayers that say these things
can't be done in terms ofscalability and recording data

(23:20):
and actually getting somethingthat's repeatable and
meaningful.
We see the same things, hear thesame things, whether it be
genetic evaluation or, forgoodness sake, animal
identification in the beefindustry, you know, these things
can't be done.
Did the hog community go throughsome of the same questions and
arrival at answers and breakingparadigms that you see the beef

(23:41):
industry doing today, or is itso totally different because of
size and time to finish andthings like that, that they're
not even comparable.

bradley_2_10-14-2024_120415 (23:54):
Oh, Matt, I think you know, they're,
they're more comparable thanthey're, in comparable, in, in
my opinion.
with that said, I, I see thehurdles, you know, there, there
are many more hurdles andthey're certainly taller, you
know, as I think about runningthe beef race versus the pork
race.
But.
But, but the industries are morecomparable than not.
It is a general statement.

(24:14):
And, and, and again, I want tolet you steer this conversation
where it needs to go.
I can wander all over with thisbecause of my passions for both.
You know, I've spent a lot oftime in the last year.
I've been asked in a couple ofdifferent instances to compare
now that I'm full time and inbeef and, um, you know, what,
what are the lessons I've takenaway from pigs and, you know,

(24:36):
and conversely, what can, pigslearn from beef?
I just, just actually had ameeting back within the pork
industry a week ago, talk alittle bit about how I think,
you know, the beef industry isjust so consumer centric
relative to a, you know,commodity cost of production
focus in the pork industry is,from that point of view.

(24:57):
But but but your question was,you know, entirely about, more
to the.
Production side of things.
And I would just say that mybiggest point of surprise, maybe
I'll start there.
When I compare the twoindustries around this
measurement piece, it's beenreally hard to believe it's been
a big adjustment how little isactually measured in the beef

(25:19):
industry.
So, you know, managerialaccountant is, is almost a
science in the pork industry andfor certain is in the poultry
industry.
Thank you.
And when you get into the beefindustry, and, and if you're
like me and you're reallyinterested in, in, in how do
you, you know, use marginaleconomic values to, you know,

(25:41):
select animals in, in a waythat, that drives the system,
um, You know, that's reallyimportant stuff.
And it just doesn't seem toexist, at least in volume and
across environments.
and and that's been the biggestadjustment, um, especially when
you think about the level ofcapital and overall financial
investment in the sector, whichhas been wildly surprising to

(26:04):
me, and I'm still adjusting toit.
So I would just start there.

matt_2_10-14-2024_120415 (26:07):
Well, before you go to the next one,
why do you think that is?
Because I think that is animportant piece.
To discuss here in the beefindustry.
Why, why don't cowboys usemanagerial accounting?

bradley_2_10-14-2024_1204 (26:19):
Yeah, I suspect there's a variety of,
Okay.
Um, factors involved there.
And certainly I, you know,certainly there, you know,
tremendous business people inthe beef industry, um, without
question.
So I, you know I,, want to becareful, you know, in, in
articulating what, what I'mthinking here, but, when, when
you just look at the statisticsin the beef industry, where what

(26:42):
80 percent of cows are in, in 40cow herds or less.
There's certainly a number ofthose folks, um, near as I can
tell from my experience that,that aren't necessarily looking
to make a business out of it.
And I think, you know, one ofthe things that was a challenge
for me as a, you know, strategicleader in the pork industry was

(27:03):
how to incentivize, I.
T.
you know, information services,uh, how to incentivize companies
to come in to a market that, youknow, Actually, you know, you
could quantify pretty well, uh,to develop accounting software
and and and grow people with thecompetencies to utilize it.

(27:28):
And I would say we were largelyunsuccessful there.
Yeah, there's still whilethere's good managerial
accounting, they're still not.
1 enterprise resource managementsoftware that that's the perfect
solution for anyone.
And it's simply because I thinkit's a challenge ag has, you
know, to have sent that type ofan investment.

(27:49):
You know, we're generallyfragmented and there's just not
enough return on investment fora company to, to bet on us.
And so the point of going backto the sort of fragmented beef
industry, small farms, some ofwhich are not operated as a
business, many that are, um,it's just difficult to incent.
The type of investment needed,um, you know, to, to, to build

(28:14):
those platforms.
And I mean, we'd see, at least Ido even, even just in simple
production accounting, um, youknow, they're, they're good
software platforms, but I knowit's, you know, just not a lot
of options, um, which, whichmakes sense.
So, I think, you know, insummary, I think there's a lot
of factors, but withoutquestion, there is definitely a

(28:34):
lot of folks that own beef cowsthat don't necessarily view it
as a business, um, and I, youknow, while I think that's okay,
I think that detracts from thoseof us that are, you know, trying
to, you know, make a businessout of it in the respect that I
actually believe the businessprinciples are what enable it to
be sustainable.
Talk a lot about sustainability,um, but I think when you view

(28:55):
something as a business, youtake on responsibility, for the
resources under your leadershipand you want to do that in such
a way that, you know, businessprinciples are applied.

matt_2_10-14-2024_120415 (29:05):
You know, as you mentioned,
sustainability, and I think froma financial standpoint is what
you're talking about.
Business sustainability., Wouldit not behoove us to look at
some ways to arm our industry,its participants, especially
from the cow calf and what Icall the grass farmer and

(29:25):
rancher level.
up, we always seem to talk aboutthe revenue side and how are we
going to get more out of thesecattle?
Who's, how are we going to getthat feed yard to pay us what we
deserve instead of saying.
Could somebody come in here andhelp us run this business and
cut our costs withoutcompromising production or

(29:48):
without compromising whateverthe things were paid for?
We rarely in beef industrycircles talk about that.
We want drought relief.
We want to break up the big fourpackers.
We want to, you know, it's allfrom that income and revenue
side and never do I hear adiscussion at an industry
meeting.
I shouldn't say never, butrarely.

(30:08):
Do I hear somebody sitting downand saying, you know what, if we
did a better job of figuring outwhat things make us the most
money, we could do more of thosethings and quit spending money
on XYZ equipment or whatever wethink we need to, pork folks
find that out sooner?
And if so, why, and, and whatcan or should, or do we need to

(30:30):
do in the beef industry to kindof go down that road?

bradley_2_10-14-2024_120415 (30:33):
You bring sort of two thoughts to
mind.
First, Matt is, I think, youknow, we talked about the lack
of measurement that exists inthe beef industry.
That's my biggest surprise.
And then you Start to thinkabout how difficult that
measurement is, not only interms of the inability to
attract investment, but just thephysical reality of, of animals,
their spatial location, their,their time of production, like I

(30:56):
said, number of factors.
It's hard.
I want to say that up front.
It's extremely difficultrelative to the other species
I've been involved with.
I think technology today,though, is a huge enabler.
And so, obviously, I'm anenormous pro and advocate for
this.
But you mentioned something Ithink we just have to say out
loud, and that is, you know, whydo we spend so much time looking

(31:17):
at the revenue side of the P& L?
It's because our, you know, our,our customers do it for us,
right?
That's what we get back.
We get, you know, we get thesekill sheets and the data come
back to us.
and, and so we tend to make alot of business decisions around
the revenue line.
Um, and without question,getting to our cost structures

(31:37):
are, are difficult, but, youknow, it was difficult in pork
and one imagines poultry aswell.
I'm a huge Peter Drucker fan,you know, if you don't measure
it, you're not managing it.
And so that's a huge opportunitythat we both know is there.
there are some data, but Ithink, you know, the more

(31:59):
benchmarking, one of theentities in, in the beef
industry that I really respect,I've not seen in, in, in the
other industry, certainly not inthe way that it performs was
CattleFax.
I'm, I'm just continuing to beimpressed with.
I think you had Randy on herebefore and, um, there's just,
how do we, you know, scale thatand enable and incent, uh, more

(32:24):
participation and more folksinvolved there.
I don't have answers to that.
I have a few ideas.
but.
Anyway, I guess all that is tosimply say to you that, that, I
think, uh, you know, it's easyto account for the revenue side.
Cost side is more difficult, andI think we need to make more

(32:45):
conscious efforts because, youknow, to me, environmental
management is just one aspect ofsustainability.
You've mentioned there areseveral, um, but, but again,
Thank you.
It's in our best interest tomanage all aspects.
I mean, we're going to have to,our consumers are very clearly

(33:05):
telling us they're interested inall aspects of our business, but
particularly those that, that,that impact their world.
And today it's, it's air, water,and other resources that they're
more conscious than they've everbeen.
And so.
To me, as, as an industry, we'replaying behind the eight ball
and and we've got to start tothink, you know, not only about

(33:28):
how do we get our coststructures and, and, and
managerial accounting aroundthose things that are tangible,
um, that we write checks forevery day, but these other
factors that are in our bestinterest, and, and some harder
to measure than others, uh, but,but all, I think will be
important, to us in the longterm.
And again, I, I, I think, we maybe accounting for environmental

(33:52):
matters, uh, before we'reaccounting for, you know, cost
matters today, uh, simply again,because our, our customers are
demanding that in terms of scope3 admissions reporting.
They're, they're going to beforced.
We're going to be, I think, youknow, sooner rather than later.
Uh, forced not only to tellthem, you know, what genetics or
how long they've been on feed,but, but, you know, a whole lot

(34:15):
more, uh, about what resources,uh, from an air and water point
of view have gone into them.
Carbon just being one

matt_2_10-14-2024_120415 (34:22):
I think especially as we hear talk
about carbon credits and beingpaid for doing quote, unquote,
the right thing.
I have some heartburn about thewhole carbon credit model.
But, uh, regardless, yeah, thatis and has been for decades,
centuries.
that's been a cattleman'smantra.

(34:44):
I'll do it when you pay me to doit, not I'll do it when I can
figure out that I can save abunch of money.
And yet, I mean, we're all tightwads.
We don't want to spend money onanything.
And that's what we use as theexcuse, even when we could spend
a little money on certainthings.
genetics, mineral program, youknow, whatever the case may be

(35:06):
and make more.
We still say, yeah, I justcan't, I can't afford to pay
that.
Um, why?
Because we're not figuring outwhat we make off of it.
And I think that's a challenge.
So you mentioned that one ofyour biggest surprises with it
was the lack of data collectedin the beef industry,
specifically the

bradley_2_10-14-2024_1204 (35:24):
could I stop you for just say, I want
one thing I compelled to sayreal quick to you there is, you
know, I've been an avid listenerof this podcast for, for the
reason that you just mentionedthere, there, is.
There is a culture.
I mean, I don't know the historylike you were just describing,
you know, the history,historical perspective of the
cattlemen, you know, none ofthat, you know, that's new to

(35:44):
me, right?
It's not, not a world I've beenin, you know, been, been fully
investing here over a decade,but, but I'm, I'm a newcomer to
this.
There is definitely a culturaldifference.
Matt, that's the only thing Iwant to stop and tell you.
There's an enormous culturaldifference, pork and poultry,
having been in both industries,pretty similar cultures,
different but similar.

(36:05):
Um, there's a very differentculture.
I don't have any appreciationfor the history of it as you,
you, you probably canunderstand.
Um, but, but, It is interesting.
I would say it feels much likeyou described it.
I don't know the basis for it.
It's sort of intuitive, youknow, you just learn to manage
your cost.
I mean, now, on the flip side, Iwould tell you we weren't nearly
as conscious around ourconsumers.

(36:27):
And that's one of the reasonsI'm here.
That's exciting.
I think that's a fresh way tothink.
And, and that's why I'm, I'm inthe beef industry today.
But, but boy, I just can'timagine doing it without
focusing on cost.
I just think it's, Theresponsible thing to do.

matt_2_10-14-2024_120415 (36:42):
Yeah.
And that's, that's why I haveyou on here is because I think
we can learn a lot from eachother in other industries and,
uh, we can learn some of whatworked and we can learn a lot of
what didn't, from both.
Beef to pork and pork to beef.
You and I were at a meeting afew weeks ago in Kansas city
where, and I will not rememberthe guy's name from Brazil, a

(37:06):
geneticist in the hog side ofthings.
And he asked the group aquestion.
What's the biggest differencebetween, boars and bulls.
None of us got the answer right.
You know, when we said one's amonogastric, the other's a
ruminant, et cetera, et cetera.
And finally, you remember whathe said?
He said, in the pork industry,we don't name our boars.

bradley_2_10-14-2024_120 (37:29):
That's right.
They're numbered.

matt_2_10-14-2024_120415 (37:31):
They are by a number and they mean
nothing to us emotionally.
And so if they do the job, Wekeep using them and we keep
daughters out of them and we, orwe put them into a terminal sire
line or whatever the case maybe, but if they don't work, even
if we thought they should be thenext savior of the pork
industry.

(37:52):
They're gone, and we go on tothe next one, and we, we don't
get married to them, and in thebeef industry, we not only name
our bulls, we take pictures ofthem and videos of them, and
some of us name our cows even,and, and, uh, it's harder to
part with them, or it's harderto make judgments based off of
the data when you do that.

(38:13):
And I think he said a lot whenhe said that, um, I maybe that
didn't hit you as hard as it didme, but I'm like, there it is
right there in front of ourfaces.
And we didn't realize the reasonthat we're so different.
We name our bulls.

bradley_2_10-14-2024_120415 (38:28):
you know, I would just say overall
there's a lot of, uh, you know,like I said, there's, that's why
I wanted to stop you.
I didn't mean to rudelyinterrupt you, but just say
there.
There's cultural differencesthat are pretty sizable that,
you know, I didn't expect.
I mean, you know, you expectsomething, right?
I mean, I, I, I didn't own, youknow, set of cowboy boots before

(38:48):
I got into, so you knew therewere going to be some cultural
changes.
Um, but, but it's striking.
it's very, very striking.
In general, right.
The.
The pig guys, um, make nodecisions without measurement.
Very little, you know, gut andintuition.
it's the classic measure twicecut once, um, and, and in the

(39:09):
beef industry, there, there's.,You know, but less
entrepreneurship.
Obviously, there's sometremendous entrepreneurs in the
pork industry, and it goeswithout saying.
I mean, these guys that took alot of risk but, you know, in
the beef industry, there's atremendous amount of creativity
and entrepreneurship.
but, you know, it's a lot ofdecisions from gut intuition.

(39:30):
Um, the data doesn't seem to bevalued at the same level as, as
I see in the other industries.
Again, wildly competitiveindustries, too.
That's the big difference,right?
I mean, we all know thedifferences in the industry.
I mean, this is, you know, the,you know, the beef industry
seems to be more largely out of,you know, land ownership.
There, there are other reasons,too, of course, but in general,

(39:52):
that's one of the things I'm,I'm recognizing you've got, you
know, land owners and thencethere are cows, versus in, in
the pig industry, you know,people raise pigs to buy land,
um, not the other way around.
And, and so that's, you know,when you talk about origins and
the history of cowboys, if youwill, that, that, that seems to

(40:16):
be, you know, the fundamentaldifference, if I were to spill
it down into one thing.
I tell people from time to time,there's just not a lot of sex
appeal to owning pigs.
That's the biggest change that,

matt_2_10-14-2024_120415 (40:29):
Well, along those lines, I think
again, same meeting different,uh, well, you were the speaker
and you use something, I thinkthat, uh, maybe Alan Miller had
shared with you, that.
Sometimes funds, certain aspectsof the beef industry in some
circles.
Um, and I think, did he call itirrational capital?

bradley_2_10-14-2024_1204 (40:50):
Yeah, that was, so Alan told me, I'll
tell you a quick, quick historyon that.
You know, Alan and I were ingraduate school together, so he
was on the first floor.
And so that's, maybe that's partof, you know, part of why I'm
now in the beef industry.
You know, the beef guys had thefirst floor.
Us swine guys were on Secondfloor, we had to climb the
stairs.
So I think there was some levelof of envy around that for, you

(41:12):
know, the nine years.
But so Alan, I go way back andwhen I consult with Alan, you
know, again, having a greatfriendship through time, I
talked to I think I'm going to.
I think I'm going to scale up Ithink I want to get into
production cows, you know, andyou know, why would you do that?
And he, of course, uh, when Italk about the lack of
measurement, one of the thingsI, a lot of things I respect

(41:32):
about Alan, one of the things,you know, during his graduate
career, he ran the SPA program.
in the state of Illinois.
So, I mean, he was outcollecting data.
And, and so, we had thisdiscussion.
He said, Bradley says, you'renot, you know, you're just going
to go crazy in the beefindustry.
He says, it's just, you're,you're going to pull your hair
out.
And, uh, I said, oh, no, theseguys have, you know, huge

(41:55):
investments.
You can't tell me they're notmeasuring things.
You know, these, these, youknow, people that own cows, you
know, these are These are hugeinvestors.
And so I frequently have to goback and confess, you know, and
admit that he was right aboutthat.
I said, you know, I can't beright, Alan.
But, and so, honestly, that thatterm, you know, it took me a
while, but the last I use thatterm.

(42:17):
Once I was asked to come back tothe pig industry, I call it my
swan song in July and, you know,that was basically the message I
brought to them.
I said, you know, the pigindustry's had challenges.
It frankly, it overbuilt itself.
It's drove, as a result,supplies drove prices down and
so, you know, part of what Ioffered him was, you still at
least have You know, rationalcapital over, you know, my side

(42:40):
of the fence now, on the beefside, there's a lot of
irrational capital.
So that's, uh, I didn't know,honestly, uh, 2 weeks ago when,
when I made that presentation tothe, to the conference, I
thought, you know, a number ofyou guys might find me in the
back of the room and lynch meafter telling me you had
irrational capital.

matt_2_10-14-2024_120415 (42:58):
Well, it's there and admittedly, I
think for the most part, thefolks that listen to this
podcast are probably less guiltyof that than some of us.
And, and especially those of usthat have had to buy in a 4 H or
a.
Junior Angus show heifer orwhatever the case may be.
There's all sorts of differentlevels of irrational capital in

(43:20):
the beef industry.
And luckily most of the guys andgals listen to this one are
probably a little better thanaverage in that regard, but.
It's there.
I mean, even when I, I'd neverthought about the fact, as you
said, that a lot of us in thebeef industry, especially the
cow calf industry have cowsbecause we owned land and you
flip that over to the porkindustry where they have land if

(43:44):
they were successful enough toactually make a profit on the
hogs.
And, uh, that's.
Exactly backwards from us, orwe're exactly backwards from
that.
Besides the lack of consumerfocus on the hog side and, and
the deterioration in quality,what are some other things that
they could learn from us?

(44:04):
as you talk to those folks, whatare we doing well in the beef
industry?
Cause I think sometimes we don'tcelebrate our successes.
What, What have we got going forus that we want to make sure
that we don't lose?

bradley_2_10-14-2024_120415 (44:16):
Oh, that's a great question, man.
I honestly, you know, there's areason I'm here and dedicating
100 percent of my time now.
And, you know, I, I'm, I'mbullish.
I'm, I'm extremely bullish theindustry.
I see, you know, I see a lot ofchanges.
likely, um, simply as a functionof our success.
And, and, and the reason I havethat frame of reference is that,

(44:41):
you know, I'll take you kind ofback through my, you know, 40
year history in the pigindustry.
I, I saw it go from, mortgagelifter status in the eighties,
helped folks get through farmcrisis on the basis of US
genetics, to, You know, 90srepresented a significant
importation in European geneticsthat, that took us, uh, to, you

(45:04):
know, a much leaner and drovefeed conversion.
And we then became the low costproducer on the globe of, of
pork.
And, if I take you one half stepback in that piece of the
history, it was in the 80s thatthe pork industry, out of health
concerns, and beef, of course,faced the same thing at the
time, but out of healthconcerns, the pork industry,

(45:28):
developed what is today thethird most recognizable
advertising campaign in history,right?
"The other white meat." And, andso we aligned ourselves to
chicken on the basis of, youknow, health, um, which was a
strong position for us at thetime.
and frankly, again, we becamereally good at cost production

(45:50):
because we aligned ourselves tochicken.
We had to compete with them and,and we, defined a set of rules
which include, included, youknow, integration and, and
again, their business modelsand, and, uh, so forth.
Right.
And so, um, where, where thatgot them to is, you know, here
in, in, an industry that, thatgrew with wild amounts of

(46:14):
success.
you know, I know in one of thepresentations, I think you, you
and I were part of, I showed youknow what the return on
investment and swine assetswere.
I mean it was it's impressivethe level of success the
industry has had.
With all that said, when I lookback, at least in the time that
I was involved, we kind offorgot to ask the consumer What

(46:38):
it was they were really lookingfor and clearly it's been
chicken.
Um, you know, there isn't aprotein that's had more demand,
from a per capita consumptionpoint of view, but, we're not in
the pig industry going tocompete with chicken.
And, uh, consequently, um, we,we've struggled.
And, and now, you know, pork is,is, is chicken.

(47:01):
from a consumer preference pointof view.
And obviously, that brings me tothe real answer to your
question.
What, what's beef got going forit?
In the main, you know,culturally.
We really have our eye on theconsumer.
no matter where I go, whatmeeting there is a certain,
pride and focus on the qualityof the product we're producing.

(47:25):
And I know we, you know, again,I wasn't a part of it, but in
the early nineties, I wasactually at the university.
I remember, some of the meatquality, some of that 91 beef.
Quality audit, research at theuniversities.
There are several universitiesinvolved and Illinois is one of
them.
And, and so I know, it's notbeen a perfect track record, but
it's not been for anybody.
But where we are as a beefindustry today is so fun.

(47:48):
I, I, again, credit to thetremendous leadership this
industry has had, you know, longbefore I was a part of it.
and so that's the number onething that excites me about the
beef industry is there is acertain prideful amount of
focus.
And if I were to just go back tothe pig industry for a split
second, having told you thehistory that the punchline I

(48:08):
left out is that now, That whilewe were so good at cost
production and, and, you know,global dominance for a period of
time in terms of cost, it notonly lost, focus on the
consumer, but, but, uh, reallyhad the fundamental belief that
if we produce it, somebody willeat it.

(48:30):
And if we produce it cheap,cheapest, you know, will be
wildly successful.
And that, that's just not thethesis that has played out.
And, and so now as they workforward in terms of a strategy
and, and how they bring porkback to relevancy, that's the
challenge in front of theindustry.
Um, whereas beef is so relevant,You know, it's just exciting to

(48:54):
be a part of.
I think, beyond the fact that,you know, we have a culture of
consumer centricity, we also,have an industry that, not to
open up the box of carbon again,but, but I think, you know, in
time, we'll be able todemonstrate.
our utility.
and so I, you know, I, I thinkthat's a, you know, back on us

(49:17):
to continue to do the researchand provide the measurement and
demonstrate that.
I think without question wewill.
that excites me.
I mentioned the pig industrygenetic piece simply because one
of the things that reallyexcites me is the genetic
potential.
One of the, one of the, thereal, passions I have is I think
there's so much geneticpotential, particularly for

(49:40):
growth, efficiency, whileproviding quality, that I think,
that is all out there for us.
I think we don't capture thegenetic potential of our animals
today from a growth andefficiency point of view.
With all that said, you and Ihave had numerous discussions.
I think, you know, that is adouble edged sword.
Today's genetic toolkit is sogood that it, it will take you

(50:05):
where you're going.
The concerns are, you know, thethings that you don't measure.
some of those things are goingwith it and so you and I've
talked to numerous times and inmy, you know, presentation, I am
concerned about the mother cow,um, and in the absence of
measurement or while we domeasure some things, relatively
incomplete today, but I'llalways defend what we are doing,

(50:27):
because, doing something isbetter than doing nothing.
Even, even if it is wrong, we'lllearn from that.
And, and so, you know, I thinkwe're, way beyond where we were,
but we're not yet to where weneed to be, uh, to, to measure,
to measure, uh, you know, thatcow portion of our, our
equation.
and so we're going to learnquickly, I think, from, you

(50:49):
know, beef on dairy, as we thinkabout, how we produce a really
consistent, high quality, and ata, competitive cost point, um,
that model will inform those ofus, um, you know, myself
included, that, that own themother cow.

matt_2_10-14-2024_120415 (51:05):
Yeah, I think that's exciting.
And anybody that's listened tovery many of these podcasts know
how dedicated I am to that endand collecting as much data as
we can on the characterizing.
quantify the maternal influenceand the cow and find the ones
that are doing the job.
And from a managerial accountingand cost standpoint, that's even

(51:25):
the carbon capture standpoint,that's where it's going to be
at.
That's where I think we haveimmense potential, and I'm
excited about some of thegenetic work, even management
work and technology that's beingdone in that arena.
So I can't have a hog guy onthis conversation.
Without at least asking, andyou've mentioned it a couple

(51:46):
times, two words that strikefear into every red blooded
cattleman, and that is verticalintegration.
as we look over at the beefindustry.
Whether it be today's model ofhow cows are generally on open
range, big tracts of land,relatively speaking, weaned

(52:08):
calves that then go into somekind of growing, stocking phase,
and then eventually end up atthe feed yard and in more of a
confined type of situation.
A, do you see the ownership ofthese segments becoming more
aligned or integrated?
And B, do you see a change fromthe way we've run cows

(52:29):
specifically out on grass intomore of a confined cow feeding
type of scenario, which I knowin some areas where they're
close to a ethanol plant orwhatever the case may be, may be
happening more, if and when thatoccurs, do we see more vertical
integration on the beef side ofthings?

bradley_2_10-14-2024_1204 (52:47):
Well, that's, that's a, that's a big
question.
I'll, I'll, I'll maybe, youknow, size it this, this way.
so when I think about from a pigproduction point of view, you
know, vertical integration, I'moverly simplifying, but,
generally what got us there isthe economies of scale,
certainly, the value of, ofcoordination.

(53:10):
and the reason I, I want tosegment it and, challenge you
to, Think about it in two ways,at least from my lens, there's
the economies of scale that,that, that is there.
And then there's the, that, thatshared, uh, coordination piece
that, that both are necessary asmuch, I think, from a risk
management point of view asanything.

(53:32):
And, and so I think, from aneconomies of scale point of
view, I would say if you, if youlook at pork and poultry today,
and certainly more pork thanpoultry, but when you parse the
data back of the pork industry,you're going to find that the
largest operations are not themost efficient and maybe even

(53:57):
the most effective.
So there's a dis economies ofscale that we've yet to overcome
in the pork industry.
And, Again, I'm sort ofembarrassingly, you know, again,
coming outta college, I, Ireally wanted to see a model
that was focused on the animalscale and be successful in this
notion of feeding the world.
And, and I would have to admitthat I don't, you know, know

(54:19):
that we, we, we've figured itout.
What I have learned in, in termsof the coordin and, and the
other thing I would say aboutthe coordination, I would say
the same is, is true there that,um.
You know, what I did, uh, youknow, about a decade ago, at the
end of all that grove, weactually reorganized the
business to smaller businessmodels within the macro

(54:41):
business, in order for us to,to, to, you know, readjust those
lack of economies of scale.
and while that worked to acertain point, I'll, I'll build
into this, what I said earlierabout entrepreneurship, what
we've never overcome yet.
is the magic that occurs withina business when, when the

(55:03):
individual that owns it cangenerally touch the operating
aspects in particular, theanimal.
And I think back to, uh, uh, adairy study that, that showed
this very clearly, where helooked at three herds of dairy
cattle and, you know, with threedifferent levels of production.
And when you change the farmmanager.

(55:24):
irrespective of the system, Thedairy would respond to that
level of manager.
And I think that's, thechallenge that remains in front
of us, um, you know, in, insideof all of animal agriculture.
And it's why I continue to be,really bullish the beef industry
back to the frame of yourquestion.

(55:45):
Um, I, I do think there, therewill be, and I think candidly
should be more coordination.
I mean, one of the reasons Iappreciate I learned from you in
this podcast.
I know you, you share the sameviews, but at the end of the
day, it's about., you know,managing risk and in a macro
sense for the consumer and thefood supply.

(56:07):
and and I think, you know, thereis value that comes with that
coordination.
The question is, and I thinkCOVID is, is a pleasant reminder
of this question and there areother examples, but at what
scale should society, supportputting these systems together?
I think the principle ofentrepreneurship, uh, but there

(56:27):
will be, some factored Dependingon the segment that enables
optimum.
And of course, it'll be afunction of the competency level
of the entrepreneur willultimately be the defining
moment.
but there are dis economies ofscale.
I'm convicted of that.
And that's the message I wouldleave as I speak.
You know, with your around thatquestion, I, I don't think we

(56:50):
know yet how to overcome those.
And, uh, I think, you know, thebeef industry with, with the
capital intensity, uh, the assetnature of the industry, um, it
will be incredibly challenging.
With all that said, I do thinkwe're going to see, more dry
lotting of cattle as well as asystem.

(57:11):
And candidly Matt, you know,about half of my cows are in,
in, in confined production.
Um, that's one of the thingsthat, that I've been
passionately pursuing over thelast decade is, is the potential
for confinement based cowsystems versus pasture based
environments.
And so that is, you know, Again,both systems at this point, I'm

(57:33):
about eight years in where I'vebeen, you know, taking, you
know, SIB.
Embryo mates to differentenvironments and from both the
genetic improvement point ofview as well as economic thesis.
both systems in mydetermination, um, are, are
equally effective and, and bothhave their laundry list of
problems that, I'm not, I'm notbright enough to solve yet on my
own for sure.

(57:54):
you know, I, I do think bothsystems.
This is my read at the moment.
Um, you know, I, I got into itsort of bias thinking, you know,
that, you know, confinementintensive based system, would
be, uh, you know, would have anedge, particularly in my
geography.
But I'm not, you know, I thinkthere's a lot more to learn yet.

matt_2_10-14-2024_120415 (58:12):
Well, I think it will change a bunch
and it has and we'll continue soand I don't think there's any
arguing that through the decadeswe've seen that we've seen those
changes and we'll continue.
I probably should have had youstart out with this, but give us
a feel for your beef operationtoday.
I know you touched on it alittle bit with some confined

(58:32):
cow feeding and but start tofinish, kind of give us where
you are today and where you seethat going here in the, in the
near future.

bradley_2_10-14-2024_1204 (58:41):
Yeah, Matt.
So I, I, um, again, passion forthe beef starts with this notion
of the beef industry focused onthe consumer.
And so I started there, youknow, again, looking back,
trying, you know, my, my, myinterest in sort of a second
career, if you will, in the beefafter a 21 year career in the
pork industry is simply that.

(59:02):
Try and come at it and applyingall the lessons learned and
basically try not to make thesame mistakes twice.
And so, this time around, I'vestarted with, you know, what is
the consumer looking, you know,to purchase and who is my
consumer and try to define thatand, and it, it sort of by
default started at a smallscale.
Um, you know, my, uh, my systemstarts with, With my wife's

(59:26):
friends, my wife and I called itsoccer mom beef.
We had small kids at the time wedecided to get into this.
And so, you know, it's a productthat, from a spec point of view,
we focus on trying to create a,Mid to high choice product, uh,
at a little bit lighter weightbecause of cut size and what our
consumer, it's a consumer directbeef business.

(59:47):
That's what we're, you know,endeavoring to do.
Uh, we do have a little bit ofexcess production that goes to
commercial plants that we'll addsome additional weight to, uh,
but the point I'm trying to makeis the production system starts
there and then it, it sort ofbackwards, engineers itself, um,
to genetics.
We've got a registered Angusherd.
that serves as the foundation,um, and, and genetic base for,

(01:00:10):
for what we're doing.
Um, and, uh, then we've builtthe business on partnerships and
again, not contract partnershipsin the way that pork and
poultry, have thought about it.
Um, but, but truly trying todrive it from an entrepreneur
point of view.
And, and so, we own cows.
Uh, and, and under ourmanagement and direct care, um,

(01:00:32):
we produced all the heifers and,and, and bulls under our
management.
A lot of the cows will go outunder lease.
we do have some by product, uh,genetics, if you will, some,
some bulls and heifers thatdon't go back into our own
system that we do sell them andthose customers have allowed us
to grow.
Um, our focus is, uh, primarilyin, in Southern Illinois and,

(01:00:53):
the, uh, eastern half ofMissouri, but my wife is from
Western Illinois and, and wehave a production hub up there
as well of, of producers and,and all those, calves, uh, from
produced, produced from, fromthose general geographies come
back and get finished inSouthern Illinois.
so we, we've got to finish thosecattle against, uh, uh, St.
Louis River Basis corn market,uh, so we start with one foot

(01:01:15):
under, and so we've had to put alot of emphasis and on, on feed
conversion and, and so we'vedone some, you know, dry matter,
Uh, feed intake work is a partof what we've done and as well
as selection, for thecomposition of the growth.
And I've done some cerealcarcass growth work, uh, to get
at nutrient requirements.
And we've got a nutritionprogram then in terms of how

(01:01:37):
we're focused that, that looksat, uh, You know, growing the
animals along a very lean andenvironmental friendly footprint
where carbon is something wecontinue to work and try and
understand what our model does,but at the end of the day, we
finish the process with a youngcouple that does all the custom

(01:01:58):
cutlery for our consumer directbeef business.
We leverage.
Uh, harvest facilities here,before we send the carcasses out
to Salt String, which is ourcustom, cutlery business.
again, all built onpartnerships, all leveraging the
entrepreneur, uh, Um, we reallysee ourselves as facilitating,

(01:02:18):
the process, backwardsengineering it from that
consumer all the way back.
And from our point of view,everybody has to win.
Um, and so we're constantly, atleast, you know, from my lens,
I'm constantly, Focused on whatare the mechanisms within that
supply chain, all those partnersthat I just described, how do we

(01:02:39):
get to an appropriate riskadjusted rate of return?
Um, and of course, those risksare constantly changing and
about and evolving and, but, butI think, you know, that's where,
you know, we've got to have.
You know, mechanisms in place,uh, that, that enable, you know,
lenders to get comfortable, butat the same point in time,
flexible enough, to evolve, uh,with the dynamics of, you know,

(01:03:02):
our business environment.
And, uh, it's tough, man.
It's, it's really, you know, Iwould say I'm just trying to
apply a different set ofprinciples, and trying to apply
the lessons learned from thepork industry and putting this
business together in such a way,um, you know, that it can
sustain and, and that means itneeds to compete.
It's not always going to be, youknow, the best from a cost point
of view, and it's not alwaysgoing to be the best from a

(01:03:22):
revenue point of view, but, but,you know, if you look at it
through a long period of time,my goal is, to get a position
to, to compete and continue to,to grow its appeal for the
consumer.

matt_2_10-14-2024_120415 (01:03:33):
So truly from genetics all the way
to To direct to consumer sales,truly a vertically integrated,
system under your managementand, care.
And, and, I think sometimes wethink of vertical integration as
being.
Or being JBS that's owningeverything from their point in

(01:03:56):
the packing plant back.
And, and I think that's maybe amisinterpretation that a lot of
us cattlemen have in thatrespect, but, you know, just
fascinating.
I mean, one of the things thatyou said there, as you backed
back away from building thismodel from what you can.
Sell to the consumer, what it isthat they're demanding.

(01:04:17):
One of the things you said wasthat you raise a smaller animal
and smaller portion sizes,because that's what they're
demanding.
And I think it's interestingthat in a day and age that we
continue to have that discussionand yet see the way that every
time that you go through thataccounting procedure from a,

(01:04:37):
especially from a revenuefocused standpoint, it tells us
thanks to grids and increasedlevels on carcass weight and
things like that.
Dockages, uh, it tells us makethem bigger, continue to make
them bigger.
And yet you, as you focus onthat consumer have said, you
know what?
No, there's, there's a middleground that I don't want any rib
eyes, any bigger than X, whichtranslates into a carcass weight

(01:05:01):
and therefore a live weight thatdoesn't push 1800 pounds or
whatever the case may be.

bradley_2_10-14-2024_120 (01:05:07):
That's a great point, Matt.
I mean,, you know, the pigindustry is only gone in one
direction and that's make itbigger.
I suspect, the generaldirection.
Obviously, the beef industry hasto this point.
I think, you know, for a numberof factors, I don't see what it
is that will reverse that trend.
apart from the consumer voice,which is your point, but that
signal will be, will be latent,right?

(01:05:28):
I mean, we, we, by the time weget there, we'll, we'll have
already messed it up.
And so, the solution, of course,is innovation.
And I've been a part of somemeetings recently with some
insight, some very, you know,wildly large and successful
restaurant trains that, that,that, that tell me that the
bigger ribeye is not a problemand, but, but it.

(01:05:50):
You know, there's obviouslyefficiencies in picking up that
additional pound on theproduction side, but there's
inefficiencies in taking some ofthose muscles and putting them
to trim and other things.
So, I don't know what the answeris, but a little bit to my point
at the Imagine Conference, itseems to be bigger than any one,

(01:06:11):
System can can get their armsaround it in it in their
entirety.
Right?
So I look at at mine and and youknow, I'm certainly coordinated
among a number of faucets, but Ido have a generally simple
customer, not selling a mix.
I mean, I to a certain degree Iam, but, in the main, you know,

(01:06:33):
I'm selling, several hundredhead a year as consumer direct,
muscle cut.
So I'm, you know, not into, youknow, trim, sausage.
I mean, basically we sell theseanimals and so I have a simple
system.
I just want to say that up frontthat, you know, having been in
the poultry industry and, youknow, sell it, you know, all the
way from eggshell to, uh,chicken leg, it, it, uh, You've

(01:06:56):
got to really sell that mix, andit's really, really important.
And so the simpler you can makethat business model, the easier
it is.
And I'm, I'm pretty simple.
So I think one of the takeawayshere is you, you raise that
point.
I don't know what the answer is,but I'm very concerned.
Um, on one hand, I will tellyou, it makes total sense to

(01:07:18):
keep making them bigger.
On the other hand, I'm concernedand in the same way you sort of
position, you know, is theconsumer at some point going to
tell us we got too big and thenit's too late answer is likely
with the only caveat being thatif we innovate that carcass and
figure out how it is that we cutit and present it to them as

(01:07:39):
long as we don't hinder what Ipreach today is the, the,
strength of the industry, youknow, I think that's the way
forward.
but.
But do we have a plan and astrategy?
Do we have adequate leadership?
Is that, you know, in our, ourPacker partners, where is that
occurring?
I cannot answer that, but Ithink, you know, as, as a

(01:07:59):
collective group and, you know,you and I share the belief that
we've got to do these thingscollectively, whether that be
with, whatever organizationyou're a member of, I think
you've got to keep a voice and,and be willing to lead.
because somebody needs to beworking in this space today, in
my opinion.

matt_2_10-14-2024_120415 (01:08:16):
Yeah, I would agree completely.
You know, of course we havediscussions on the cow side of
things that would add anotherlayer of complexity because as
we talked with Dave Lalman therea month ago or so, I mean, there
are trade offs, not just inconsumer acceptance of bigger
portion sizes or, Problems withthis size of cattle out in the

(01:08:39):
feed yard or whatever the casemay be.
You've also got their sistersthat are back home trying to do
what they need to do in sometype of a forage based,
environment.
And, and those, those get to bea challenge as well.
But, you know, I think to put abow on this, you know, You used
a word right there, collective,and working collectively.
We, we may not like the termvertical integration.

(01:09:03):
We may not like the termvertical coordination, or even
cooperation, or any of theseother C words.
But, the collective mindset,whether it's all under one
person or one entities directivefor management, or whether it is
through conferences like you andI have taken part in the last

(01:09:23):
six months or so, um,, andeverybody else has for decades,
at least a discussion andsitting down at the same table
and saying, okay, from myviewpoint, these are some of my
challenges and these are some ofthe opportunities.
Now, what are they from yours?
And I think that's, that's whywe started this podcast.

(01:09:43):
That's why I encourage people toattend these meetings and
discussions because.
You know, pulling on those bootsand putting on the hat and
watching Yellowstone anddetermining that by gosh,
nobody's going to tell me whatto do because I'm an independent
cattle producer may make this ashort lived Business model.

(01:10:08):
in fact, it may drive evenfaster vertical integration
because somebody else that doeshave a feel for managerial
accounting and does have a feelfor that sweet spot of scaling
and all these different thingsmay end up coming and taking us
over if we don't at least havethese discussions.
And I think that collectivemindset is, is the one that

(01:10:31):
probably helps us get where weneed to get as we go forward.

bradley_2_10-14-2024_12041 (01:10:35):
well said, Matt.
And the one thing I always tryand remind myself of is, you
know, in a capitalistic society,I liken it to a veterinarian.
All my vet friends, when theylisten to this, they'll call me
and leave nasty grams in myvoicemail.
But I've teased them for yearsabout the fact they spend their

(01:10:56):
entire career practicing.
And, and one of, you know, Goodfriend of mine always tells me I
reserve the right to getsmarter, Bradley.
And, and the whole point of, ofsharing that analogy is that,
you know, I believe in acapitalistic society we're
practicing and we're going tomake mistakes.
And and collectively, we'regoing to get smarter and at a

(01:11:20):
macro level, what that means foryou and I sitting out here in
the countryside with our cows asmuch as we enjoy it.
It's the lifestyle.
You've alluded to it many timesin this podcast.
And I agree, um, you know,society, a capitalistic society
is going to evolve.
And so while we, we may not wantto evolve with it, we really
don't.

(01:11:41):
Have that choice.
And, you know, so, you know,we're going to adapt to it and
adapt with it.
And, uh, to your very, very wellmade point, we're faced with two
options.
We can, you know, sit and watch,or we can, you know, strap on
our boots and get involved andbe a part of defining it and,
you know, Helping it practice toget better.

(01:12:03):
And that's, I think, you know,my thought process.
And again, you know, why, whyappreciate the opportunity to
get to know you and reallyappreciate this podcast.
It's, you know, trying to stayinformed and develop views and
try and provide leadership tothe next generation.

matt_2_10-14-2024_120415 (01:12:18):
Well, that's all any of us can do.
And, and, um, again, that's,that's what keeps us practically
ranching is, is through thesetypes of discussions and
learning and being enough opento some new ideas, a ways of
doing it that we can, we can getbetter.
So, well, Bradley, I reallyappreciate you being on here.
Uh, appreciate all your thoughtand leadership during your short

(01:12:42):
tenure in the beef industry.
But, I've always been told thatpeople who learn something later
in life often, become better atit than those of us that have
Spent generations doing it.
And I think, um, I think you'rea testament to that.
you know, you've become astudent of the beef industry in
a relatively short amount oftime and, probably school

(01:13:02):
circles around me in a lot of, alot of different ways.
And so I appreciate yourperspective, both from your
history in the pork industry,but also your, your tenure and
your vision, uh, here for thebeef circles as well.
So thanks for being with us.
Keep up the great work and we'lllook forward to seeing you again
down the road.

bradley_2_10-14-2024_120 (01:13:18):
Thanks for the opportunity, Matt.

matt_2_10-14-2024_120415 (01:13:20):
You bet.

Microphone (Yeti Stereo (01:13:24):
Thanks again for listening to
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(01:13:44):
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