January 29, 2025 • 61 mins
Bill Bowman works with Method Genetics, LLC, in St. Joseph, MO. Through the years, Bill has worked in a variety of roles within the Angus breed, from the production to association levels.
In this episode, we talk about the early days of multi-trait indexes, the move to genomic-enhanced EPDs, how commercial producers can benefit from the use of indexes; and finally, a few trends that Bill envisions as the beef industry moves into the next decade or two.
https://youtu.be/uEf7iJRWvSU
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Episode Transcript
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Microphone (Yeti Stereo (00:05):
Thanks for joining us for episode 68 of
practically ranching.
I'm Matt Perrier and we're herethanks to Dalebanks Angus, your
home for practical profitablegenetics since 1904.
Bill Bowman is one of the mostintelligent guys I've ever met.
Bill's quiet, humble demeanorwon't allow him to boast about
(00:27):
it, but his ability to recallfacts and figures and distill
data into really usefulinformation for beef cattlemen
is impressive.
Actually, it's pretty scary attimes.
Uh, bill and I touch on our 30,over 30 year history at the
outset of this, so I won't spoilit, but suffice it to say that
(00:49):
bill started out as my mentorand then my coworker, and then
my boss, and most importantly,he became a better friend with,
with each passing year.
Bill took a bit more diversepath to his current job in the
animal genetics and breedingspace, and bill touches on this
history as we pick up thisconversation here, but I think
(01:10):
it's this fairly non-traditionalcourse that allows bill to
approach genetic tools with,with a very practical
perspective.
He and his wife, Sally wererecently inducted into the
American Angus Association'sheritage foundation.
And during their time at theassociation bill and Sally led
to the introduction of dollarvalue indexes in-house genetic
(01:34):
evaluation, genomically enhancedexpected, progeny differences
EPDs and they helped createAngus genetics incorporated, or
AGI as a subsidiary of theAmerican Angus association.
And these may seem like prettystraightforward decisions today,
but I can assure you at the timethey were groundbreaking and,
(01:55):
uh, they had a lot of risksassociated with these decisions.
In 2014, Sally founded methodgenetics in St.
Joseph, Missouri, and bill hascontinued to work with multi
trait indexes and geneticevaluation through this company.
I'm going to include a YouTubelink in this podcast notes of
(02:16):
today's episode and you canclick it to hear bill and Sally
discuss a little more in depthsome of the more memorable times
of their career.
They're at the American Angusassociation.
In today's episode, we're goingto talk about those early days
and multi trade indexes and themove to GE EPDs and how
commercial producers can benefitfrom the use of indexes.
(02:37):
And finally we'll touch on a fewtrends that bill and visions is
the beef industry.
Moves down the road into thenext decade or two.
You know, I've heard it said"ifyou're the smartest person in
the room.
You're in the wrong room." Thisis rarely a problem for me,
especially if I'm in the roomwith bill Bowman.
And honestly, bill might say thesame thing about himself, even
(02:59):
though it's rarely true.
Uh, bill talks here in theepisode about curiosity and the
desire to use and make betterselection tools.
And in my opinion, that sumsbill up pretty nicely.
Always curious, alwayslistening, always thinking.
And always finding bettersolutions to today's challenges.
(03:19):
It's why I've appreciated ourdiscussions.
And it's why I think you'llreally enjoy this one.
With bill Bowman.
Bill (03:28):
You bet, Matt.
And I grew up in NorthwestMissouri on a very, very small
diversified farm and, my first,opportunity with the beef cattle
side of the business was as aFFA project, getting some Angus
heifers and so that was where mycattle, experience kind of
(03:51):
started, ended up, going tocollege at the University of
Missouri and, Participated likea like most in meat judging,
livestock judging experience,uh, graduated there with B.
S.
And animal science and kind ofhad full intention of going to
(04:12):
graduate school, after, at thatpoint, and kind of was getting
that narrowed down and myadvisor in, college was, Dr.
Jerry Lipsy, who, by then hadgone to the American Angus
Association and was the JuniorActivities Director and Dr.
Lipsy, called me up one day andsaid that, they actually had a
(04:37):
position that they were takingapplications for that he thought
I might be interested in atAngus.
And it was a regional managertrainee position.
So I ended up applying for thatand ultimately got that position
and it was a great experience.
(04:57):
It was in 1979.
It was the beginning ofcertified Angus beef and a lot
of things going on in the breedat the time.
I had an opportunity to travelacross a lot of the country with
a lot of the regional managersthat were there.
(05:18):
We're in place at that time and,got to make a few field trips
for CAB in the very initial,part of that program.
And so, got some great exposure,was there, kind of through the
fall of the year.
And, there was getting ready to,be a position, open up, That I
(05:39):
was probably going to end up asa regional manager, and I was
going to be out in Kansas andOklahoma, and this young kid
from Missouri wasn't sure hewanted to in the middle of
Kansas at that time, Matt, Imean, who would really.
So, I ended up going to work asmall Angus farm in Missouri at
(06:01):
the time.
East Central Missouri, uh, wasthere for a couple of years,
until they sold that operation.
They ended up going toSydenstricker Genetics and was
there for about 10 years,working, with Eddie, and Ben
eventually at theSydenstrickers.
Ended up, taking a little spininto the sale management
(06:23):
business with, Angus Hall ofFame.
Dick Beck, Tom Burke, uh, got tosee a lot of, uh, a lot of the
country and, uh, and meet, a lotof people, in the angus breed
and involved in marketing andsales management at that point.
And so it was, uh, it was kindof a whirlwind there for a few
(06:43):
years, doing a lot of differentthings and getting a lot of
different experiences along theway.
But things kind of take fullcircle.
And, uh, I had an opportunity toagain American Angus as a
regional manager, that was with,uh, Dick Spader, would've been
the executive officer at thatpoint, and, ended up, having,
(07:08):
the opportunity to go to workfor Angus, and I ironically
ended up in Kansas, Oklahoma,and Colorado as my territory,
and enjoyed it immensely.
So, It was a great experience,those different segments of our
industry, but, really gettingthe opportunity to travel as a
(07:30):
regional manager.
There and in that area reallyexposed to some of the beef
cattle production systems that Ididn't have an opportunity to
see beforehand when you got tothinking about feedlots and the
packing industry, just theentire commercial focus and the
(07:51):
commercial segment of theindustry that you really weren't
exposed to maybe in what I'dbeen doing beforehand.
Matt (07:58):
So that was 79 when you came in as the um, regional
manager, trainee,
Bill (08:04):
trainee,
Matt (08:05):
and then Don Laughlin, our friend would have taken the RM
position that you decided youdidn't want any part of that.
And what year was it then thatDonnie moved to Iowa, Missouri,
and you came in,
Bill (08:19):
Don would have taken that, Went to a different territory
with Missouri and Iowa in 92.
Okay.
So I would have started inJanuary of 92 with American
Angus.
And so I traveled as a regionalmanager in that.
so I was born in the UnitedStates, and in that territory.
I always called it sevenSprings.
It was fall of 98 when ended upgoing back to the Association
(08:43):
office and kind of started kindof a lot of, different
experiences.
They're then working in acommercial programs was really
what my initial,responsibilities when I moved to
the office in 98, Ended upworking into and helping with
the performance programs, as anassistant in there, ultimately,
(09:09):
John Crouch became the chiefexecutive officer and ended up,
working with performanceprograms and then, later on, we,
Got involved with the creationformation of the Angus Genetics
Incorporated or AGI, thesubsidiary at American Angus,
(09:29):
and so that was kind of the,kind of the Quick, quick take on
experience at Angus anyway.
Matt (09:38):
Yeah.
And I, I mean, I, I had a frontrow seat to that process and
didn't know just how intertwinedit was about to be with my own
life because there in 79, 80when Laughlin started as our
regional manager, he was thefirst RM that I remember as a
kid.
(09:58):
Right.
So I remember him fondly.
We just, everybody just lovedDonnie and he was a great R.
M.
and we just felt like he waspart of the family.
He
Bill (10:09):
always talked about, I think, one of the first times he
was here was the first day youwent to kindergarten, I think,
was the story I've heard.
Matt (10:17):
Yeah, I think that's right.
I think I was getting off thebus from my first day of
kindergarten when he made hisfirst herd visit here, which
that would have been the fall of79.
And then I remember fast forwardto my senior year in high
school.
Donny is leaving.
Everybody in my family wasdistraught.
dad asked Mr Spader or whoeverwas that, had hired his
(10:39):
replacement.
Well, who's gonna be our new RM?
Because we love Donny andthere's nobody that can fill Don
issues.
Well, it's bill Bowman.
Well, who's he?
Well, he worked forSeidenstrickers and took, what
did he do for Sydenstrickers?
Well, he took care of the showcattle and things like that.
And then he, he worked with asale management firm and oh my
gosh, Tom Parrier was fit to betied.
(10:59):
We're going to have some showjock that's, that's been working
for the haul.
coming as our regional managerin the most beef industry
focused, region.
And, um, so you had, whether youknew it or not, you had an
uphill battle, at least inEureka, Kansas.
I've heard a lot of stories likethat.
(11:20):
Believe it or not, we weren't,we weren't the only ones.
And yet, somehow you overcamethis preconceived notion that we
had of somebody.
And I think all of us do this inthe Angus business, the beef
industry.
Humanity in general.
We see what somebody's resume isand where they're from, part of
(11:42):
the country, who their friendsare, whatever else.
And we decide, well, I know, Iknow what this is gonna be like.
And yet you proved us all wrong.
And, um, hopefully Donny's notlistening to this, but became a,
a, uh.
close second, if not outdid ourregional manager that we thought
was the best R.
M.
(12:02):
Ever ever to travel the roads ofKansas.
Bill (12:05):
I think a lot of that Matt's just again, always having
a curiosity about things and adesire to learn and willingness
to learn.
And that's where it was so neatwas just the good people that
you ran across the operationsand It wasn't that much fun to
(12:27):
be an Angus breeder through alot of those years either.
And so we, got to see a lot ofthings and see a lot of people
making improvements and theirprograms maturing.
And I mean, there was greatopportunity to learn a lot in
those years, driving up and downthe roads for sure.
Matt (12:46):
Well, and we've, we've had a couple of regional managers
since that I can't, completelythrow under the bus because we'd
have gone to the map forCaldwell or Mafi as well.
And I think as, as somebody andFor those of you who don't know,
I think most listen to thepodcast and figured it out.
But I had that role in Texas,New Mexico for 3.
(13:06):
5 for four years.
and sometimes you mentioned thatit wasn't much fun to be an
Angus breeder in the lateseventies and eighties, even
early nineties.
And sometimes that field rep isas much of a Therapist has as he
is anything.
I mean, really, you've got tosit down after that sale that
(13:27):
was a complete disaster or,after that natural disaster that
happened in your herd or, orwhatever the case may be, a
genetic condition found that'sgoing to take out a third of the
cows.
So many different things thatseed stock producers have to
deal with.
And quite often their first callis to that regional manager and
(13:47):
say,"What do I do?" I mean,this, this thing is we got to
pitch the tent and have thedispersal sale and you all
sometimes have to either helpwith that dispersal or talk them
off the ledge and say it's goingto be okay.
And so it's a pretty goodtraining ground and, very
diverse set of tasks that youget to have as you go forth.
(14:09):
So you get done with it.
position.
You go in as commercial programsdirector, which was the first
time that the Angus Associationhad had a dedicated, or at least
with that title, right?
As a commercial and industryrelations for a lot of years.
And I guess that's right wayback.
I think they made years andyears ago, but tried that.
(14:32):
And so then in january 2001 waswhen I moved up to be your
assistant director of commercialprograms.
And then, of course, by thefollowing fall is when Mr Spader
passed away and John took thatrole as CEO and everybody kind
of moved up around shufflingaround.
Yeah.
(14:52):
So that is where I want to pickup and talk a little bit about
some of those new tools that youand Sally and others, kind of
worked to create and that beingthese multi trait indexes.
And I guess most people that arelistening to the podcast are
probably very familiar, at leastsomewhat familiar with EPDs and
(15:15):
dollar indices.
If you might just give a quick,for those who aren't in the
business, a quick what's up onEPDs first?
Mm-hmm And then we'll talk aboutwhy you were so dedicated and
Sally was so dedicated tofiguring out how to combine
these into a multi traitselection index.
Bill (15:34):
Yeah.
And I think we were reallyseeing about in that timeframe,
Matt, really an evolution ofgenetic evaluation and seeing
additional traits that we werestarting to evaluate.
I mean, previously it had justbeen the very basic birth
weight, weaning weight, yearlingweight, and the maternal side of
(15:55):
it were really the traits thatwe were able to evaluate and
they were the initial ones that,really got genetic evaluations,
started for seed stockproducers.
and as traits developed.
we saw, I mean, it was acontinuous education process.
And I think the thing we lookedat is, a lot of commercial
(16:20):
producers maybe were intimidatedby the number of EPDs and
different traits that werestarting to come on board.
And so we looked at indexes asreally a way to try to simplify
selection.
With the focus being on thecommercial bull buyers and
trying to create a, a littlesimpler approach for them to
(16:45):
utilize and selection of bullsthat they were going to be using
in their programs.
And I think a little history onselection indexes.
I mean, they'd been used foryears and the swine industry,
the dairy industry.
And so it was relatively.
And it's a really unknown andunused technology and the beef
(17:08):
cattle business.
And so, I think the Charolaisassociation actually had a
little terminal index that theycame out with first.
But uh, the direction of theboard, I think, kind of in that
2000 and three range would havebeen, Working on developing
selection indexes, really withthat in mind of, of trying to
(17:33):
utilize some of the new EPDswhen we looked at things like
the carcass traits and startingto see ultrasound technology
going into, those EPDs and justtrying to condense some of that
information, to make it a littlesimpler and more user friendly
for the commercial producers outthere.
Matt (17:55):
As we talk about this and you said something about some,
you know, the multi traitselection indexes were created
with the commercial producer inmind, I vaguely remember having
one of the hundreds, if notthousands of meetings that we
had about creating these andwhat needs to go into them and
how are they going to be usedand, How are they going to be
(18:17):
abused?
And sometimes, I mean, we're allguilty of it as seed stock
producers.
We look at a, tool such as anEPD, dollar value index,
whatever the case may be, andsome of us, hopefully, most of
us, look at it as a selectiontool, as a culling tool, as a
(18:38):
way that we can improve ourgenetics for our herd and for
the commercial customers that wehave.
And yet, at some point in thetime, it's going to be used as a
merchandising and as a marketingtool.
And, um, somebody, and it mayhave been you, that says, okay,
it may have been Crouch orSally, I don't know, but
somebody said, the minute we puta dollar in front of this index,
(19:03):
it's going to trump some of thesingle traits that are going
into it, because dollarsResonate, and it's dangerous if
we do that.
And one of us in the room, Ithink, said, Why don't we just
not let seed stock producers seeit or use it and make it a
(19:24):
commercial only tool?
If that's who it's supposed tobe for, that's the only people
who get it.
And of course, we all had a goodlaugh because you can't do that.
But, oddly enough, whoever saidyou put a dollar in front of
this and it's going to be abusedwas pretty accurate.
It's
Bill (19:40):
probably you.
Yeah.
I mean, I think Matt, the thingI still look back on and I mean,
I get a kick out of, we used togo to meetings, B.
I.
F.
and different industry meetingsand, and you'd have these talks
about, the use of indexes andthe power of indexes and, How do
(20:01):
we get people to use them?
And here we were as the Angusbreed, we were probably trying
to figure out how do we get themused by the people they were
really intended for and, andslow things down.
So I always got a kick out ofgoing to those meetings.
And I mean, that was always thetopic is how do we get these
(20:22):
producers to use these indexes?
and we were like.
It's, it's not a problem.
How do we, how do we make themnot use them quite as,
Matt (20:31):
Front and center and, and yeah.
So why is that, why do you thinkthe Angus breed and it's
probably been from the firstweaning weight EPD we had or
adjusted 205 day weight prior tothat, or EBV or whatever, why is
it that Angus breeders have,have.
to these tools?
Bill (20:51):
Yeah, I think it's because they, I mean, they've seen that
they work, Matt.
I mean, I think, and that's thecommercial producers as well out
there, whether it was 20 yearsago or today, they see that
using these tools.
They're, they're very efficientmeans to make, general
(21:13):
improvement.
And I think that's the thingwe've lost track of as well is,
I mean, these tools were reallyselect or created to, to,
evaluate a population and move apopulation in the right
direction.
and that's where commercialproducers have been able to use
(21:34):
things like selection indexes tomaybe take off the bottom part
of, of their herd or be morespecific of the, of the
replacements they're going toput back in their program using
some of those tools.
Whereas seed stock producers, Imean, we probably need to hone
in and identify those individualtraits.
(21:56):
And when we're making matings,use those individual traits, to
be the most efficient inselecting, because we understand
it.
We understand where we needimprovement on, on a set of
animals and being able to useThose specific EPDs are those
individual traits it allows usto make much more rapid progress
(22:18):
than trying to use the indexesto get there.
I mean indexes do a great job ofevaluating Profit in in an
entire system.
I think because they have a arevenue as well as an expense
component built into them.
But you're also, there's a lotof different ways to get to the
same number.
(22:39):
And so you have to be consciousof that and knowing that, that
if I need to improve maturesize, I probably need to really
hone in and focus on loweringmature size and.
I can do it much more rapidusing those EPDs or correlated
(22:59):
EPDs, to a trait like thatversus, uh, trying to use the
indexes to, to get me where Ineed to go for my, for my
particular production system andenvironment.
Matt (23:12):
Yeah, that's,
Bill (23:12):
that's something
Matt (23:13):
that I think that has been lost almost immediately.
I didn't see seed stockproducers flock to.
the indexes.
and forget about some of thetraits as quickly as what
happened.
And I should have.
and that's why I think we kindof said we need to just be able
(23:35):
to not let seed stock breedersuse the multi traits.
They know everything about everyindividual for at the time,
probably 11 or 12 differenttraits, and now 18 or 20 or
whatever it is.
They've got that on every cowand every bull, and when they
make those matings, they need touse those, at least the ones
that affect them from aproduction and marketing
(23:55):
standpoint, and that are mostimportant in their herd, and
yet, I think a lot of them, theywent to the A.
I.
Sire catalog, and they justsearched for one number, dollar
B for dollar, eventually W,dollar M, whatever the case may
be.
You'll probably shoot me forsaying this, but I quite often
use the indices, especially, andthis is just kind of a shock and
(24:19):
awe deal that I've used on a fewbreeders as I've talked to them,
and they get to bashing ondollar C, which for those who
aren't in the Angus world, it'sdollar combined, it's the multi
trait, hopefully both maternaland terminal indexes together,
and if you're going to as acommercial producer, pick one
trait because you're retainingyour heifers and you're also
(24:40):
retaining ownership, let's sayon the set of steers and you
want to be paid for the qualityand growth there.
And you look to dollar combined.
I say when people start really,really hitting hard on dollar C,
I say, well, I call it dollarcull.
And they look at me and youdon't like it.
No, I think it's a great toolfor what it was created for.
(25:01):
But about the one time that Iused dollar C in my selection is
when I am figuring out who getscut as a bull, who gets sold as
a commercial heifer off thebottom end, or whatever the case
may be.
When it comes to the geneticportion of that, I pick a
certain level of dollar combinedthat they have to meet and
(25:23):
exceed.
And those are the ones that getto be marketed as seed stock, or
kept, retained in our herd.
Now it's not just that, we lookat structure, we look at
disposition, and all thesethings, but From a seed stock
standpoint, I don't know that weneed to be talking about the top
1 percent dollar combined.
We need to make sure that we'renot making very many in the
(25:45):
bottom whatever percentage ofdollar combined.
Because most of the time when weare honest with ourselves, we
look across the crowd at ourbull sale or the folks that are
interested in, in registeredfemales, they're a pretty
diverse bunch and some of themmay want a bunch of calving
ease,.
Some of them may want a bunch ofgrowth, some of them may want a
(26:05):
bunch of marbling or super lowfoot scores or PAP or whatever
the case may be.
And those multi trait type ofindexes allow us to make sure
that they're pretty good onthings.
I think
Bill (26:21):
early on, Matt, we used to talk about them being kind of
the index is being kind of liketraining wheels or they kind of
helped keep us out of the out ofthe ditches.
And so, yeah, I think when weshifted to making them traits to
really hone in to try toidentify the very And so I think
(26:44):
it's a really important thing tokeep in mind when you're trying
to figure out who's your topindividual versus trying to like
we said before, kind of knowingthat we're trying to kind of
shift the population of ourgenetics and just keep the as
you described, keep thethreshold in there to keep
improving that average of thatpopulation down the road.
Matt (27:06):
You know, quite often again, when we get to sorting
numbers.
And of course, even when we'reevaluating cattle, we still line
them up top to bottom.
And if they win their class,they're great.
And if they're the bottom ofclass, they're terrible.
And quite often it's not justthat easy.
They may work for somebody else,regardless of where they sit in
that lineup.
(27:27):
But, uh, I'm reminded as you'retalking, especially from a
historic standpoint, and you maynot Maybe you still get accused
of this, but I know whenever wewere working for the
Association, and I would assumeKelly or Esther or any number of
people that are there at anassociation today, breed
associations who provide toolsto their breeders and to the
(27:50):
commercial industry that isselecting genetics from that,
that, association.
Quite often get accused oftelling people how to breed
cattle.
I know that never happened withyou.
No, never.
John Crouch, you mayoccasionally listen to this.
I'm sure he was never, uh, neveraccused of that.
But it was always interesting tome that just because we
(28:13):
coordinated the research, andyes, we had to help make final
say on how, The tools wereformulated with help from PhDs
and geneticists and everybodyelse, but it was always
interesting to me that justbecause we provided these tools
and maybe wrote an article abouthow to use the tools and what
(28:35):
they should tell you that wewere all of a sudden, by rights
telling you whether you have touse this tool or you have to
have them above a certain numberof that.
And Yeah, I don't remember onetime, that I told somebody that
if you don't breed your cow herdto a bull that's above a certain
number on this or that trait,but how, I mean, I think we've
(29:00):
established that that's not thecase.
How do you assure folks of that,from your old days or maybe at
Method Today you still havepeople say that?
how do you sort through that forfolks?
Bill (29:12):
I guess I still have always looked at it, Matt, as
our job was.
Our job is to characterize thegenetics and you have to still
understand in your operation andyour your resources, your feed,
your management.
Kind of how those differenttraits need to be handled and
(29:34):
weighted somewhat.
you know, I think back, when theindexes first came out, we also,
we spent a long time working on,customizable indexes because we,
we were kind of encouraged that,well, they need to be.
be producer specific so I couldadjust the inputs and and try to
(29:58):
create an index that was gonnabe better for my operation or
better for my customers.
And we spent a lot of efforttrying to get that tool put in
place.
It was put in place and it tookseveral years and they finally
decided, nobody still everlooked at it or used it because
it was not the The benchmarkthat was, was being printed.
(30:22):
And so I think that's the thing.
Again, we get back to theindividual traits behind those
indexes.
I mean, they're a good guide.
As you described, there are goodthreshold to set in, in probably
some selection practices, butthere's still individual traits
that you as an operator need tohone in on and whether it's,
(30:45):
putting pressure on milk becauseof your feed resources or if
it's putting, more emphasisbecause I'm trying to get cattle
to go into a prime market, toput more emphasis on marbling or
whatever the case may be.
But, we, we never want to justtake it all.
I guess.
As a grain of salt to think thatthis one piece is going to
(31:08):
describe everything that we needin an operation.
I think that's the otherimportant thing to remember.
Matt (31:14):
Yeah.
I have often toyed with the ideafor our bull sale here, offering
less of the component traits andjust having your maternal index,
your dollar beef index.
You're probably still have tohave calving ease for folks
wanting to buy straight upcalving ease.
(31:34):
Sires for heifers.
have you seen anybody do that?
And is that from a sciencestandpoint, forget about
merchandising and marketing andall the B.
S.
That goes along with trying tosell those bulls.
If you're just looking at itfrom a animal breeding
perspective is a commercialproducer, and I'm just going to
say a typical producer whodoesn't have individual records
(31:58):
on every cow, isn't trackingweaning weights and all these
things on an individual basis,but knows, Hey, I am that guy
that needs to produce more primefor the grid.
Or I am that guy who's trying tomake replacement females and
needs more fertility andfunction and fleshing ability
and all these other things.
would they be better offthrowing all the individual
(32:21):
components away and justselecting on an index like the
science is indicated in otherspecies?
Bill (32:28):
I mean, that leads to kind of what Sally and I have been
doing for the last 11 yearscoming up on it now, Matt.
I mean, really, our our focushas been to work with commercial
producers and provide thoseproducers selection tools that
can utilize both genomics andphenotypic records if they have
(32:54):
phenotypic records in theiroperation.
But, but yeah, a lot of thoseproducers have really just
utilized the selection indexes,I think.
and it's been fun to watch asthey've been able to use that as
I mean, they've used good bullsfor years, AI and natural
service bulls, that have gotgood genetics, but the ability
(33:17):
for them to use those indexes tothen, cut off the bottom third
of their heifers or whatever in,in making, selection there and
just watching the progress thatthey've been able to make in
terms of improvement in theirentire production system,
because when you're selectingfor an index, I may not be
(33:40):
directly, selecting for weaningweight, but I'm I'm seeing
weaning weight improvements.
I'm seeing improvements infeedlot gain.
I'm seeing improvements in thecarcass, uh, traits as well.
And so it's been reallyinteresting to watch those
producers be able to utilize,indexes.
(34:01):
In most cases, I mean, we weoffer a few little component
traits, to the commercialproducers, but try to keep it
very simple.
And most of them are just using,a Combined index for their
selection of their replacementfemales, and it really has
(34:21):
created a lot more consistentproduct in their operations, I
think, as they look down theroad.
So as they're
Matt (34:29):
looking at that, what all, and I guess you've got varying
levels with method genetics,whether they are, DNA on those
commercial females and addingthat to it or just using indexes
off of the sires they've used.
what's the best return on theleast investment for them as far
(34:50):
as, you know, if they'restrapped for labor or aren't
comfortable with all the geneticinformation and computer time
that it requires to have thoseindividual records.
What have you seen that worksthe best or is the most return
for that time involved?
Bill (35:05):
Yeah, I mean, selecting cattle, bulls that they're going
to use in their operation, withwhatever the tools they want to
use to identify those genetics.
I mean, we've just got so much.
good information on geneticstoday that a producer can sort
through.
It's just like you're saying inyour sale catalog.
(35:26):
You worry if there's too much,but it's still producers can use
it.
And the ones that knowspecifically what they want
particular for calving ease oryearling growth or mature size
then it's there for them toevaluate and further select on I
(35:48):
just think, uh, you know, thoseproducers have been able to use
the tools with confidence.
they do what they're supposed toif I'm looking for calving ease,
I can use a calving ease bulland you don't see calving
problems in the Angus breed ingeneral anymore.
I mean, and so that's, that's agreat testament.
(36:08):
And I think that's why we havecontinued to always see the
uptake in the use of the newtools and the new technologies
for the breed as a whole,because it's worked, it's
proven, we continue to enhanceand develop.
Um, and so it's been really neatto just see that, uh, I can, I
(36:31):
can make real progress, realgenetic progress by using these
devices.
Well,
Matt (36:38):
it's pretty evident that everybody wants, or needs, or at
least thinks they want somethinga little bit different in
genetics.
Six months or so ago, I got thisidea and I don't know why I
listened to a podcast, which isdangerous, especially this one,
but I listened to a podcast.
They were talking.
It wasn't even in the beefindustry.
They were talking aboutcrowdsourcing data, and I think
(37:02):
that's how they called it.
But basically, instead of focusgrouping where you 10 really
smart people that already have agood understanding of a given
task or topic and ask them tofigure out what the right
solution is.
they send out thousands ofsurveys and they get better
(37:23):
answers than they did with sevenor eight smart people that
should have been able to come ata more intelligent response.
So I, I had this idea.
I was going to send it out andcrowdsource to our customer base
and let them pick one of mysires for next year.
And I talked to a couple folks.
I don't think you were one ofthem, but I talked to a couple
(37:43):
people and they're like, that'sa terrible idea.
What are you going to do if it'sa bull that you know is not
going to help them, even thoughthey think that the majority of
them picked that bull?
Right.
And so I kind of mulled itaround.
I really still like the concept.
And finally I thought, you knowwhat, I'm just going to do it on
traits.
(38:04):
And I'm not going to let themactually pick a sire, but I'm
going to let them tell me whattraits would be ideal, and then
I'll go find the bull that hasthose traits.
And you know, we as seed stockproducers are supposed to be
able to do that on our own, andwe like to think that we're
better at it than anybody else,but I thought this would be
really good.
And so, we didn't get a hugeresponse on it.
(38:25):
Not enough to.
really run home with it.
But what it told me wasfascinating.
Bill, I was more confused afterI got the data back than when I
was trying to put the thingtogether.
And maybe that just goes to showthat I'm not good at writing a
survey.
But I think it was prettystraightforward.
But the fact of the matter wasof however many dozen people
(38:48):
that responded to this survey,there was no clear answer that
everybody needs this trait.
In fact, If one was the mostimportant and nine was the least
important, I had several simplebusts.
I mean, we had absolutelybackwards from one ranch to
(39:10):
another.
And as I watched them buy bullsin the sale this year, that's
exactly how they bought them.
Why?
Because they have figured outwhat so many seed stock
producers, in my opinion,haven't.
That is that in my environment,with my marketing scenario,
these two traits that the guydown the road or across the
(39:33):
state think aren't even worthlooking at are the most
important things that I need.
And so it was fascinating to meand we can all cuss and discuss
the independent nature oftoday's cattle breeders or
forever cattle producers.
But it's evident and that's whyI think we have to have Various
(39:55):
tools.
A bull doesn't necessarily haveto be the top 1 percent in every
single one of them.
Genetics science shows that it'snot impossible, but doggone
difficult to make it happen.
But, yeah, they're there for areason because different folks
are going to need those.
And that's where the multi traitindexes, I think, make it a lot
(40:16):
simpler.
As long as we as seed stockproducers are still, you know,
collecting the phenotypes andmaking sure that we make the
components work first, and thenthe traits, the
Bill (40:26):
indexes
Matt (40:27):
will
Bill (40:27):
work as a result.
Yeah, that's still one of thebiggest challenges that we deal
with today, Matt, is you putmore traits in the indexes, is
just the confidence level ofsome of those smaller phenotypic
databases that go into some ofthose ePDs that are ultimately
(40:49):
used in the indexes and I knowheritability and weightings, can
kind of control some of theinfluence that some of those
traits have, but it's still achallenge to assess the economic
impact of some of those traitsin, in.
What's the difference between anoperation or different
(41:09):
operations.
Even month to month,
Matt (41:11):
I mean, when you see differences in cattle prices or
the choice, select spread orwhatever else, I mean, what may
have paid you, let's just lookat a terminal type of grid.
what may have paid you hugedividends in April on quality
grade, may be different inAugust.
And that's, you know, that'sjust the nature of the beast,
(41:32):
but we try to.
Kind of work those all outthrough an annual average.
So, again, we may be backing upjust a bit, but we've talked
about phenotypic traits, and ofcourse everybody's familiar, or
at least knows of, genotypes.
Touch, if you will; today wehave all of those things going
(41:54):
into most of our geneticevaluations, hopefully.
first, tell us the differencebetween phenotypes and
genotypes.
And then tell us which one ismore important if there is or
leading the witness here.
Why do we need them both?
Bill (42:10):
You bet.
Of course, kind of in that 20082009, era, we started using DNA
as a portion of the geneticevaluations.
Prior to that, everything wasbased On individual weights and
measures that seed stockproducers collected on their
(42:32):
farms within a contemporarygroup, and that went into.
Genetic evaluation thatultimately produced.
Initially E.
B.
V.
S.
And then ultimately E.
P.
D.
S.
That we know today.
and that you were around, Matt,with the transition, of that all
being done offsite atuniversities by researchers to
(42:56):
bringing it all in house, at theAmerican Angus Association to
where it was all done, theresearch, the actual running of
those genetic evaluations wasdone on site.
in the association, within thewalls of the association, and
that was a giant leap for, for alot of folks out there, that
(43:18):
were used to seeing universitiesbe the only source for that
information.
And so, We kind of endured somechallenges with that as well.
I remember being
Matt (43:30):
one of those challenges, saying you can't tell me that we
can take a drop of blood andknow as much about it as 10
progeny or whatever.
Bill (43:39):
So, so yeah, the use of DNA and working that into the
genetic evaluation along withthose phenotypic, records, into
EPDs.
first started in 2009, Ibelieve, would have been kind of
the first genomic enhanced EPDs,we called them at that time, and
(44:01):
ultimately now we're in a muchbetter technology with the
single step genetic evaluation,which is, using the genotypes
and you're actually building agenomic pedigree on those
animals because we know that,my, makeup, looking at my
(44:21):
grandparents, Is not the same aswhat my brother's genetic makeup
is.
And so we're able to really morespecifically hone in on the
relationships of animals intheir pedigrees, to do a much
better job using both thephenotypic records as well as
the genomics or the genotypes onthose animals for those EPDs.
(44:45):
And so, The genomics, from thoseearly days and creation of AGI.
I mean, to now, what are we at1.
3 or 4 million genotypes in theAngus breed?
I think now maybe it's more thanthat.
Yeah, I haven't looked latelately, but it's exponential
growth.
(45:05):
Yeah.
And so it's easily become thebiggest component of our E.
P.
D.
System.
And that's where we have to relyon the fact that we've got a
great representation ofphenotypic data from the seed
stock producers turning that inand The evolution to work into
(45:27):
new traits and identify hard tocollect phenotypes.
I mean, we've got a goodrepresentation of some of the
low hanging fruit, but, it's achallenge when you go to try to
collect breeding records and tryto collect, mature size.
Records on a cow herd and thingslike that.
But I mean, it's been fun towatch the maternal plus program
(45:50):
and the Angus breed continue togrow and that influence.
But I mean, I think we're and weboth had the opportunity to go
to some meetings to kind of hearabout new opportunities down the
road in terms of trying tocollect phenotypes and in larger
(46:10):
and mass.
And I mean, it's probably gonnamake us really reevaluate how we
have done genetic evaluationsand create these selection tools
when we have the ability tocollect mass amounts of data,
weights, records, measurements,that we can't even imagine what
(46:32):
all that's going to involve on,on commercial cattle and in
large operations and how we canrelate that back and use that.
Uh, I mean, think about theswine industry, the dairy
industry and their ability touse those commercial animals,
commercial records to really,improve and create selection
(46:55):
tools that have, amazingcapabilities in a lot of traits
that, again, we've not even,touched on of what we may
measure and evaluate.
Matt (47:07):
Yeah.
As you, as you talk about thatand I think about how the model.
the phenotypic collection andwhere that data comes from,
commercial and seed stock, youknow, all these different things
and how that model would look ifwe created it today, knowing and
having the genomic component ofthat, as opposed to continuing
(47:30):
to tweak and morph that modelthat started back in the 50s and
60s and slowly up until the 90swhen it all of a sudden blew up,
kind of came to what we knowtoday.
And it reminds me of a quotethat I remember.
Dr Tom Field has used countlesstimes in articles and speeches.
I remember who he credited with,but I think it went,"in times of
(47:52):
profound change.
The learners inherit the earthwhile the learned are perfectly
equipped to live in a world thatno longer exists." the meetings
that we've seen and heard fromfolks within the animal genetics
and production world, basicallysay, if we really want to make
(48:15):
this system work, we can't keepcollecting the data in groups of
five or ten with An individualanimal scale that you get one
reading that might be 10 percentoff because they went to the
water tank right before or rightafter or whatever the case may
be, or, they were sick and wedidn't know it or that calf's
(48:39):
birth weight, he was wet orwhatever the case may be,
they're looking at hundreds ifnot thousands of observations
through digital recording andwalking up to the water tank and
either taking a picture anddoing linear evaluation and
using AI to figure out whattheir actual weight is.
And I mean, it's just mindblowing the amount of data.
(49:02):
So if we in the beef industrycould possibly make that quantum
leap away from the old blupmentality of collecting weights
and running them through this,you know, ratios and into
contemporary groups and all,etcetera, etcetera.
If we can get our heads wrappedaround something different, how
(49:24):
in the world do we manage thedata, the throughput when you
have a million head of cattlecoming in with a million images
that are making, that are makingthat call.
I mean, it's just mind blowingto me how we're going to do
Bill (49:41):
that.
Matt (49:41):
I'm glad I'm
Bill (49:42):
too old to ever, ever get there, Matt.
I'll watch you young guys.
Oh my
Matt (49:49):
goodness, Bill.
Guess what?
At 51, I think I'm maybe too oldas well as slow as sometimes the
beef industry moves.
But yeah, I mean, it's Um,
Bill (49:59):
no, it's a, we're not limited by the technology.
It's an exciting time to see thepossibilities out there, I
guess, to me, and just what canreally be accomplished.
that's what I think is so neatwhen you, you get to working,
the opportunity to work withcommercial producers that have
tried to use some of thistechnology They see it in the
(50:20):
light goes on.
they can understand how, if wejust take this little herd,
that's got 500 head in it andthey can make the progress that
they've made in eight or 10years by utilizing some of the
technology we have today, then Ithink it's exciting to think
that.
I mean, kind of the means togather that information that you
(50:42):
described.
I mean, I think it's excitingand we need to be pushing
forward and right in the middleof it moving forward, I think.
Matt (50:52):
And it's one of those things, like so many, that is
exciting and frightening all atthe same time.
You bet.
And, and with, with good reason.
Um, we all know that there areconsequences, sometimes
unintended, to a, over emphasison a trait or a series of
traits.
(51:13):
And we still have to figure outways either through observation
and common logic and animalhusbandry procedures and things
like that selection or figuringout how we measure Things like
structure and how we measurethings like range cattle ability
and things like that.
And I think we can get thatdone.
(51:34):
but it's not worth throwing thebaby out with the bathwater and
just saying, well, you know,EPDs don't work anymore.
And I we need to throw him out.
Bill (51:41):
Well, that's the thing we've we have learned over the
years, Matt is again, give me achallenge and give me the tools
and I can I can make somethingThat's better.
I can make something that willwork in my environment, in my
management system.
I mean, again, in the earlyseventies, they dealt with the
(52:02):
challenges of these EPDs, EBVs,that isn't going to work.
You and I traveled up and downthe road and heard how indexes,
which was kind of where westarted, were going to be the
demise of the world.
Well, guess what?
You look around, the Angusbreed, became pretty impactful
(52:23):
by producers having the abilityto use those indexes.
I mean, yeah, would we haveliked to have softened things?
In some trade or some area alittle bit along the way or made
some better judgments.
But in reality, you think aboutthe industry and putting beef on
(52:44):
the table for the consumer.
there'd be a lot of other breedsthat would love to experience
what Angus has created 30 years.
And so,
Matt (52:54):
and you don't have to just look at.
The Angus breeds growth innumbers or even Traits within
the Angus breed that haveincreased since those dollar
indexes have come.
Let's look at total industryproduction levels in terms of of
carcass weight and marbling andall these things that quite
(53:18):
often these commercial producersthat were using those bulls
weren't just looking at thosecomponent traits necessarily.
it's, whether we like, some ofthe, again, the unintended
consequences of sometimes anoveremphasis on certain traits
or not, it's hard to argue thatEPDs can sure.
For a given trait that, you'reputting emphasis on.
(53:38):
they can move the needle.
and in the case of somethinglike marbling, and we don't have
time to go into a lesson onheritability estimates, but it's
a highly heritable trait.
one of the highestinheritability is probably of
any that we do.
So you can make progress evenfaster and something like that,
or you can digress even fasterif you use one that's below
(53:59):
breed average or whatever.
I can attest to that as well.
So you've already kind of givenus a taste for what might be in
the genetics space going forthand the way that we collect
these phenotypes and work theminto the system.
I have always held you as avisionary and you're going to
(54:20):
Bristle up and turn red andbecause you're a very modest guy
and don't like to admit that,but you saw things when I was
working with you.
I was young enough and dumbenough as a regional manager not
to realize just how you sawthings coming.
But when I was working there inST Joe, it was amazing to me
that you'd be 5, 7, 10 yearsahead of most of us that thought
(54:43):
we were pretty smart.
What do you see different?
Let's just go beef industrywide.
Let's not limited to just thegenetic space.
What do you see as the biggesttwo or three changes in the
coming 10 to 20 years ahead forthe beef industry?
(55:04):
And you can get as wild as youwant because I'm, I'm not going
to make you come back on in 20years and rub your nose in it.
But that'll, that'll be a
Bill (55:12):
sure thing
Matt (55:14):
now.
Bill (55:16):
no, I don't know, Matt.
I mean, I just think even in thelast few years, things we've
seen that we, we never thoughtwe'd have a real grasp of with
the I mean, the whole beef ondairy deal.
I mean, that was something we,we had no idea was going to come
down the road 10 years ago.
(55:39):
And I mean, look at it and youlook at the consistency of
product that can come out of asystem like that with some
proper planning and Geneticselection.
Yeah, there's been somechallenges, but I mean, it's
nothing that we won't overcome.
and so we we look at you talkabout the whole production
(56:07):
improvements that we've seen inthe beef cattle side of it.
I mean, we keep waiting forthere to be a huge drop off in
the amount of beef that we haveand Yeah, We've lost a couple
million cows.
And guess what?
We haven't seen any drop inproduction.
And so we're gonna continue.
(56:28):
I mean, the whole efficiencyside of the business is still.
I mean, it's been something thatwe still haven't tapped into
very well, especially when youlook at the cow side and I mean,
I don't smart enough to know howto approach it, but I know
there's, there's going to beopportunities out there, that
(56:49):
will allow us as a productionsystem to continue to improve
that.
I think the whole systemapproach to beef cattle
production, I mean, it's, it'sthe bull customer that latches
on to Dalebanks Angus that thenhas the connections and the
networking to help them getthose cattle, moved into, the
(57:12):
next segment of the industry andjust being able to trace more of
the whole production systembecause we haven't done a very
good job of that at this pointyet.
And so I think I mean, it'spretty interesting to watch some
of the new players in thebusiness that are really focused
(57:33):
on trying to do some of thoseexact things, but I think it's
going to be key for a seed stockproducer to really, figure out
where he, he fits in.
And when I say seed stockproducer, I'm talking the people
that are producing bulls, thegenetics for the commercial
segment of the business.
(57:53):
I think where the Angus breedhas enjoyed a lot of.
of a lot of success and we'llcontinue to see those kind of
operations are going to continueto get bigger and bigger and
just the ability for them to, tonot only merchandise and provide
genetics, but then providingservice on the other side.
(58:14):
And we've talked about that forfour years and it's, it's
getting more prevalent everyday.
Matt (58:23):
What about the commercial side of things in terms of size,
cowherd size, number ofparticipants in that segment?
Do you see equal a greaterconsolidation there than at the
seedstock level?
Or what?
What would be your outlookthere?
I think
Bill (58:38):
we still see, I mean, in Missouri, for example, and that
may not be that much differentthan you all are, but it's some
different.
I mean, we see so many Fencesbeing taken out and farming and
I mean, we're going to see lessand less producers and in my
opinion, moving forward, theones that are there are going to
(59:01):
be bigger and they're going tofigure out what their marketing
system is going to be and howthey're going to fit into the
industry as well.
I mean, and so that's, that'swhere I think again, the
commercial side of it is reallyjust, as they grow.
I mean, it's the whole deal wesee out there a lot is, a
(59:24):
producer trying to figure outhow they're going to approach
genetics.
I mean, are they going to try toraise their own replacement
females and and still Um,utilizing some segment of their
sires as more terminal?
Are they going to try to usebulls that can do everything for
(59:46):
them?
And so I think we're still goingto see some real evolution in
that area that we probablyhaven't seen producers focus on
very much because of their sizein a lot of cases.
Matt (59:59):
Well, even though we as an industry are pretty
traditionally motivated andpretty slow to adapt and change.
I don't think there is any doubtin my mind that it's going to
look different and maybesignificantly different.
And those are several areas thatyou know you hinted at that I
think would probably Be on a lotof people's list, so it'll, it
(01:00:22):
will be interesting.
There will always be resistanceto that change and uncomfort and
discomfort and everything else.
But, like it or not, it's a partof the business.
Well, Bill, I think thatprobably gives us plenty to
think about as we're bouncingdown the roads and pastures this
afternoon.
But, uh, I appreciate you beinghere.
(01:00:43):
Always have appreciated your,like I said, your ability to
take some pretty complicated,complex issues and look long
term and figure out what's aboutto come down the pike and then
figure out solutions for it.
So keep up the good work theremethod.
And thanks for everything you'vedone for us and our family and
me and everybody else throughthe years.
(01:01:05):
We'll talk to you soon.
Bill (01:01:06):
Appreciate what you're doing, Matt.
Matt (01:01:08):
Thank you.
Microphone (Yeti Stereo (01:01:09):
Thanks for tuning in to practically
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God bless you.
All.
I look forward to visiting againsoon.
Thanks for joining us for episode 68 of
practically ranching.
I'm Matt Perrier and we're herethanks to Dalebanks Angus, your
home for practical profitablegenetics since 1904.
Bill Bowman is one of the mostintelligent guys I've ever met.
Bill's quiet, humble demeanorwon't allow him to boast about
(00:27):
it, but his ability to recallfacts and figures and distill
data into really usefulinformation for beef cattlemen
is impressive.
Actually, it's pretty scary attimes.
Uh, bill and I touch on our 30,over 30 year history at the
outset of this, so I won't spoilit, but suffice it to say that
(00:49):
bill started out as my mentorand then my coworker, and then
my boss, and most importantly,he became a better friend with,
with each passing year.
Bill took a bit more diversepath to his current job in the
animal genetics and breedingspace, and bill touches on this
history as we pick up thisconversation here, but I think
(01:10):
it's this fairly non-traditionalcourse that allows bill to
approach genetic tools with,with a very practical
perspective.
He and his wife, Sally wererecently inducted into the
American Angus Association'sheritage foundation.
And during their time at theassociation bill and Sally led
to the introduction of dollarvalue indexes in-house genetic
(01:34):
evaluation, genomically enhancedexpected, progeny differences
EPDs and they helped createAngus genetics incorporated, or
AGI as a subsidiary of theAmerican Angus association.
And these may seem like prettystraightforward decisions today,
but I can assure you at the timethey were groundbreaking and,
(01:55):
uh, they had a lot of risksassociated with these decisions.
In 2014, Sally founded methodgenetics in St.
Joseph, Missouri, and bill hascontinued to work with multi
trait indexes and geneticevaluation through this company.
I'm going to include a YouTubelink in this podcast notes of
(02:16):
today's episode and you canclick it to hear bill and Sally
discuss a little more in depthsome of the more memorable times
of their career.
They're at the American Angusassociation.
In today's episode, we're goingto talk about those early days
and multi trade indexes and themove to GE EPDs and how
commercial producers can benefitfrom the use of indexes.
(02:37):
And finally we'll touch on a fewtrends that bill and visions is
the beef industry.
Moves down the road into thenext decade or two.
You know, I've heard it said"ifyou're the smartest person in
the room.
You're in the wrong room." Thisis rarely a problem for me,
especially if I'm in the roomwith bill Bowman.
And honestly, bill might say thesame thing about himself, even
(02:59):
though it's rarely true.
Uh, bill talks here in theepisode about curiosity and the
desire to use and make betterselection tools.
And in my opinion, that sumsbill up pretty nicely.
Always curious, alwayslistening, always thinking.
And always finding bettersolutions to today's challenges.
(03:19):
It's why I've appreciated ourdiscussions.
And it's why I think you'llreally enjoy this one.
With bill Bowman.
Bill (03:28):
You bet, Matt.
And I grew up in NorthwestMissouri on a very, very small
diversified farm and, my first,opportunity with the beef cattle
side of the business was as aFFA project, getting some Angus
heifers and so that was where mycattle, experience kind of
(03:51):
started, ended up, going tocollege at the University of
Missouri and, Participated likea like most in meat judging,
livestock judging experience,uh, graduated there with B.
S.
And animal science and kind ofhad full intention of going to
(04:12):
graduate school, after, at thatpoint, and kind of was getting
that narrowed down and myadvisor in, college was, Dr.
Jerry Lipsy, who, by then hadgone to the American Angus
Association and was the JuniorActivities Director and Dr.
Lipsy, called me up one day andsaid that, they actually had a
(04:37):
position that they were takingapplications for that he thought
I might be interested in atAngus.
And it was a regional managertrainee position.
So I ended up applying for thatand ultimately got that position
and it was a great experience.
(04:57):
It was in 1979.
It was the beginning ofcertified Angus beef and a lot
of things going on in the breedat the time.
I had an opportunity to travelacross a lot of the country with
a lot of the regional managersthat were there.
(05:18):
We're in place at that time and,got to make a few field trips
for CAB in the very initial,part of that program.
And so, got some great exposure,was there, kind of through the
fall of the year.
And, there was getting ready to,be a position, open up, That I
(05:39):
was probably going to end up asa regional manager, and I was
going to be out in Kansas andOklahoma, and this young kid
from Missouri wasn't sure hewanted to in the middle of
Kansas at that time, Matt, Imean, who would really.
So, I ended up going to work asmall Angus farm in Missouri at
(06:01):
the time.
East Central Missouri, uh, wasthere for a couple of years,
until they sold that operation.
They ended up going toSydenstricker Genetics and was
there for about 10 years,working, with Eddie, and Ben
eventually at theSydenstrickers.
Ended up, taking a little spininto the sale management
(06:23):
business with, Angus Hall ofFame.
Dick Beck, Tom Burke, uh, got tosee a lot of, uh, a lot of the
country and, uh, and meet, a lotof people, in the angus breed
and involved in marketing andsales management at that point.
And so it was, uh, it was kindof a whirlwind there for a few
(06:43):
years, doing a lot of differentthings and getting a lot of
different experiences along theway.
But things kind of take fullcircle.
And, uh, I had an opportunity toagain American Angus as a
regional manager, that was with,uh, Dick Spader, would've been
the executive officer at thatpoint, and, ended up, having,
(07:08):
the opportunity to go to workfor Angus, and I ironically
ended up in Kansas, Oklahoma,and Colorado as my territory,
and enjoyed it immensely.
So, It was a great experience,those different segments of our
industry, but, really gettingthe opportunity to travel as a
(07:30):
regional manager.
There and in that area reallyexposed to some of the beef
cattle production systems that Ididn't have an opportunity to
see beforehand when you got tothinking about feedlots and the
packing industry, just theentire commercial focus and the
(07:51):
commercial segment of theindustry that you really weren't
exposed to maybe in what I'dbeen doing beforehand.
Matt (07:58):
So that was 79 when you came in as the um, regional
manager, trainee,
Bill (08:04):
trainee,
Matt (08:05):
and then Don Laughlin, our friend would have taken the RM
position that you decided youdidn't want any part of that.
And what year was it then thatDonnie moved to Iowa, Missouri,
and you came in,
Bill (08:19):
Don would have taken that, Went to a different territory
with Missouri and Iowa in 92.
Okay.
So I would have started inJanuary of 92 with American
Angus.
And so I traveled as a regionalmanager in that.
so I was born in the UnitedStates, and in that territory.
I always called it sevenSprings.
It was fall of 98 when ended upgoing back to the Association
(08:43):
office and kind of started kindof a lot of, different
experiences.
They're then working in acommercial programs was really
what my initial,responsibilities when I moved to
the office in 98, Ended upworking into and helping with
the performance programs, as anassistant in there, ultimately,
(09:09):
John Crouch became the chiefexecutive officer and ended up,
working with performanceprograms and then, later on, we,
Got involved with the creationformation of the Angus Genetics
Incorporated or AGI, thesubsidiary at American Angus,
(09:29):
and so that was kind of the,kind of the Quick, quick take on
experience at Angus anyway.
Matt (09:38):
Yeah.
And I, I mean, I, I had a frontrow seat to that process and
didn't know just how intertwinedit was about to be with my own
life because there in 79, 80when Laughlin started as our
regional manager, he was thefirst RM that I remember as a
kid.
(09:58):
Right.
So I remember him fondly.
We just, everybody just lovedDonnie and he was a great R.
M.
and we just felt like he waspart of the family.
He
Bill (10:09):
always talked about, I think, one of the first times he
was here was the first day youwent to kindergarten, I think,
was the story I've heard.
Matt (10:17):
Yeah, I think that's right.
I think I was getting off thebus from my first day of
kindergarten when he made hisfirst herd visit here, which
that would have been the fall of79.
And then I remember fast forwardto my senior year in high
school.
Donny is leaving.
Everybody in my family wasdistraught.
dad asked Mr Spader or whoeverwas that, had hired his
(10:39):
replacement.
Well, who's gonna be our new RM?
Because we love Donny andthere's nobody that can fill Don
issues.
Well, it's bill Bowman.
Well, who's he?
Well, he worked forSeidenstrickers and took, what
did he do for Sydenstrickers?
Well, he took care of the showcattle and things like that.
And then he, he worked with asale management firm and oh my
gosh, Tom Parrier was fit to betied.
(10:59):
We're going to have some showjock that's, that's been working
for the haul.
coming as our regional managerin the most beef industry
focused, region.
And, um, so you had, whether youknew it or not, you had an
uphill battle, at least inEureka, Kansas.
I've heard a lot of stories likethat.
(11:20):
Believe it or not, we weren't,we weren't the only ones.
And yet, somehow you overcamethis preconceived notion that we
had of somebody.
And I think all of us do this inthe Angus business, the beef
industry.
Humanity in general.
We see what somebody's resume isand where they're from, part of
(11:42):
the country, who their friendsare, whatever else.
And we decide, well, I know, Iknow what this is gonna be like.
And yet you proved us all wrong.
And, um, hopefully Donny's notlistening to this, but became a,
a, uh.
close second, if not outdid ourregional manager that we thought
was the best R.
M.
(12:02):
Ever ever to travel the roads ofKansas.
Bill (12:05):
I think a lot of that Matt's just again, always having
a curiosity about things and adesire to learn and willingness
to learn.
And that's where it was so neatwas just the good people that
you ran across the operationsand It wasn't that much fun to
(12:27):
be an Angus breeder through alot of those years either.
And so we, got to see a lot ofthings and see a lot of people
making improvements and theirprograms maturing.
And I mean, there was greatopportunity to learn a lot in
those years, driving up and downthe roads for sure.
Matt (12:46):
Well, and we've, we've had a couple of regional managers
since that I can't, completelythrow under the bus because we'd
have gone to the map forCaldwell or Mafi as well.
And I think as, as somebody andFor those of you who don't know,
I think most listen to thepodcast and figured it out.
But I had that role in Texas,New Mexico for 3.
(13:06):
5 for four years.
and sometimes you mentioned thatit wasn't much fun to be an
Angus breeder in the lateseventies and eighties, even
early nineties.
And sometimes that field rep isas much of a Therapist has as he
is anything.
I mean, really, you've got tosit down after that sale that
(13:27):
was a complete disaster or,after that natural disaster that
happened in your herd or, orwhatever the case may be, a
genetic condition found that'sgoing to take out a third of the
cows.
So many different things thatseed stock producers have to
deal with.
And quite often their first callis to that regional manager and
(13:47):
say,"What do I do?" I mean,this, this thing is we got to
pitch the tent and have thedispersal sale and you all
sometimes have to either helpwith that dispersal or talk them
off the ledge and say it's goingto be okay.
And so it's a pretty goodtraining ground and, very
diverse set of tasks that youget to have as you go forth.
(14:09):
So you get done with it.
position.
You go in as commercial programsdirector, which was the first
time that the Angus Associationhad had a dedicated, or at least
with that title, right?
As a commercial and industryrelations for a lot of years.
And I guess that's right wayback.
I think they made years andyears ago, but tried that.
(14:32):
And so then in january 2001 waswhen I moved up to be your
assistant director of commercialprograms.
And then, of course, by thefollowing fall is when Mr Spader
passed away and John took thatrole as CEO and everybody kind
of moved up around shufflingaround.
Yeah.
(14:52):
So that is where I want to pickup and talk a little bit about
some of those new tools that youand Sally and others, kind of
worked to create and that beingthese multi trait indexes.
And I guess most people that arelistening to the podcast are
probably very familiar, at leastsomewhat familiar with EPDs and
(15:15):
dollar indices.
If you might just give a quick,for those who aren't in the
business, a quick what's up onEPDs first?
Mm-hmm And then we'll talk aboutwhy you were so dedicated and
Sally was so dedicated tofiguring out how to combine
these into a multi traitselection index.
Bill (15:34):
Yeah.
And I think we were reallyseeing about in that timeframe,
Matt, really an evolution ofgenetic evaluation and seeing
additional traits that we werestarting to evaluate.
I mean, previously it had justbeen the very basic birth
weight, weaning weight, yearlingweight, and the maternal side of
(15:55):
it were really the traits thatwe were able to evaluate and
they were the initial ones that,really got genetic evaluations,
started for seed stockproducers.
and as traits developed.
we saw, I mean, it was acontinuous education process.
And I think the thing we lookedat is, a lot of commercial
(16:20):
producers maybe were intimidatedby the number of EPDs and
different traits that werestarting to come on board.
And so we looked at indexes asreally a way to try to simplify
selection.
With the focus being on thecommercial bull buyers and
trying to create a, a littlesimpler approach for them to
(16:45):
utilize and selection of bullsthat they were going to be using
in their programs.
And I think a little history onselection indexes.
I mean, they'd been used foryears and the swine industry,
the dairy industry.
And so it was relatively.
And it's a really unknown andunused technology and the beef
(17:08):
cattle business.
And so, I think the Charolaisassociation actually had a
little terminal index that theycame out with first.
But uh, the direction of theboard, I think, kind of in that
2000 and three range would havebeen, Working on developing
selection indexes, really withthat in mind of, of trying to
(17:33):
utilize some of the new EPDswhen we looked at things like
the carcass traits and startingto see ultrasound technology
going into, those EPDs and justtrying to condense some of that
information, to make it a littlesimpler and more user friendly
for the commercial producers outthere.
Matt (17:55):
As we talk about this and you said something about some,
you know, the multi traitselection indexes were created
with the commercial producer inmind, I vaguely remember having
one of the hundreds, if notthousands of meetings that we
had about creating these andwhat needs to go into them and
how are they going to be usedand, How are they going to be
(18:17):
abused?
And sometimes, I mean, we're allguilty of it as seed stock
producers.
We look at a, tool such as anEPD, dollar value index,
whatever the case may be, andsome of us, hopefully, most of
us, look at it as a selectiontool, as a culling tool, as a
(18:38):
way that we can improve ourgenetics for our herd and for
the commercial customers that wehave.
And yet, at some point in thetime, it's going to be used as a
merchandising and as a marketingtool.
And, um, somebody, and it mayhave been you, that says, okay,
it may have been Crouch orSally, I don't know, but
somebody said, the minute we puta dollar in front of this index,
(19:03):
it's going to trump some of thesingle traits that are going
into it, because dollarsResonate, and it's dangerous if
we do that.
And one of us in the room, Ithink, said, Why don't we just
not let seed stock producers seeit or use it and make it a
(19:24):
commercial only tool?
If that's who it's supposed tobe for, that's the only people
who get it.
And of course, we all had a goodlaugh because you can't do that.
But, oddly enough, whoever saidyou put a dollar in front of
this and it's going to be abusedwas pretty accurate.
It's
Bill (19:40):
probably you.
Yeah.
I mean, I think Matt, the thingI still look back on and I mean,
I get a kick out of, we used togo to meetings, B.
I.
F.
and different industry meetingsand, and you'd have these talks
about, the use of indexes andthe power of indexes and, How do
(20:01):
we get people to use them?
And here we were as the Angusbreed, we were probably trying
to figure out how do we get themused by the people they were
really intended for and, andslow things down.
So I always got a kick out ofgoing to those meetings.
And I mean, that was always thetopic is how do we get these
(20:22):
producers to use these indexes?
and we were like.
It's, it's not a problem.
How do we, how do we make themnot use them quite as,
Matt (20:31):
Front and center and, and yeah.
So why is that, why do you thinkthe Angus breed and it's
probably been from the firstweaning weight EPD we had or
adjusted 205 day weight prior tothat, or EBV or whatever, why is
it that Angus breeders have,have.
to these tools?
Bill (20:51):
Yeah, I think it's because they, I mean, they've seen that
they work, Matt.
I mean, I think, and that's thecommercial producers as well out
there, whether it was 20 yearsago or today, they see that
using these tools.
They're, they're very efficientmeans to make, general
(21:13):
improvement.
And I think that's the thingwe've lost track of as well is,
I mean, these tools were reallyselect or created to, to,
evaluate a population and move apopulation in the right
direction.
and that's where commercialproducers have been able to use
(21:34):
things like selection indexes tomaybe take off the bottom part
of, of their herd or be morespecific of the, of the
replacements they're going toput back in their program using
some of those tools.
Whereas seed stock producers, Imean, we probably need to hone
in and identify those individualtraits.
(21:56):
And when we're making matings,use those individual traits, to
be the most efficient inselecting, because we understand
it.
We understand where we needimprovement on, on a set of
animals and being able to useThose specific EPDs are those
individual traits it allows usto make much more rapid progress
(22:18):
than trying to use the indexesto get there.
I mean indexes do a great job ofevaluating Profit in in an
entire system.
I think because they have a arevenue as well as an expense
component built into them.
But you're also, there's a lotof different ways to get to the
same number.
(22:39):
And so you have to be consciousof that and knowing that, that
if I need to improve maturesize, I probably need to really
hone in and focus on loweringmature size and.
I can do it much more rapidusing those EPDs or correlated
(22:59):
EPDs, to a trait like thatversus, uh, trying to use the
indexes to, to get me where Ineed to go for my, for my
particular production system andenvironment.
Matt (23:12):
Yeah, that's,
Bill (23:12):
that's something
Matt (23:13):
that I think that has been lost almost immediately.
I didn't see seed stockproducers flock to.
the indexes.
and forget about some of thetraits as quickly as what
happened.
And I should have.
and that's why I think we kindof said we need to just be able
(23:35):
to not let seed stock breedersuse the multi traits.
They know everything about everyindividual for at the time,
probably 11 or 12 differenttraits, and now 18 or 20 or
whatever it is.
They've got that on every cowand every bull, and when they
make those matings, they need touse those, at least the ones
that affect them from aproduction and marketing
(23:55):
standpoint, and that are mostimportant in their herd, and
yet, I think a lot of them, theywent to the A.
I.
Sire catalog, and they justsearched for one number, dollar
B for dollar, eventually W,dollar M, whatever the case may
be.
You'll probably shoot me forsaying this, but I quite often
use the indices, especially, andthis is just kind of a shock and
(24:19):
awe deal that I've used on a fewbreeders as I've talked to them,
and they get to bashing ondollar C, which for those who
aren't in the Angus world, it'sdollar combined, it's the multi
trait, hopefully both maternaland terminal indexes together,
and if you're going to as acommercial producer, pick one
trait because you're retainingyour heifers and you're also
(24:40):
retaining ownership, let's sayon the set of steers and you
want to be paid for the qualityand growth there.
And you look to dollar combined.
I say when people start really,really hitting hard on dollar C,
I say, well, I call it dollarcull.
And they look at me and youdon't like it.
No, I think it's a great toolfor what it was created for.
(25:01):
But about the one time that Iused dollar C in my selection is
when I am figuring out who getscut as a bull, who gets sold as
a commercial heifer off thebottom end, or whatever the case
may be.
When it comes to the geneticportion of that, I pick a
certain level of dollar combinedthat they have to meet and
(25:23):
exceed.
And those are the ones that getto be marketed as seed stock, or
kept, retained in our herd.
Now it's not just that, we lookat structure, we look at
disposition, and all thesethings, but From a seed stock
standpoint, I don't know that weneed to be talking about the top
1 percent dollar combined.
We need to make sure that we'renot making very many in the
(25:45):
bottom whatever percentage ofdollar combined.
Because most of the time when weare honest with ourselves, we
look across the crowd at ourbull sale or the folks that are
interested in, in registeredfemales, they're a pretty
diverse bunch and some of themmay want a bunch of calving
ease,.
Some of them may want a bunch ofgrowth, some of them may want a
(26:05):
bunch of marbling or super lowfoot scores or PAP or whatever
the case may be.
And those multi trait type ofindexes allow us to make sure
that they're pretty good onthings.
I think
Bill (26:21):
early on, Matt, we used to talk about them being kind of
the index is being kind of liketraining wheels or they kind of
helped keep us out of the out ofthe ditches.
And so, yeah, I think when weshifted to making them traits to
really hone in to try toidentify the very And so I think
(26:44):
it's a really important thing tokeep in mind when you're trying
to figure out who's your topindividual versus trying to like
we said before, kind of knowingthat we're trying to kind of
shift the population of ourgenetics and just keep the as
you described, keep thethreshold in there to keep
improving that average of thatpopulation down the road.
Matt (27:06):
You know, quite often again, when we get to sorting
numbers.
And of course, even when we'reevaluating cattle, we still line
them up top to bottom.
And if they win their class,they're great.
And if they're the bottom ofclass, they're terrible.
And quite often it's not justthat easy.
They may work for somebody else,regardless of where they sit in
that lineup.
(27:27):
But, uh, I'm reminded as you'retalking, especially from a
historic standpoint, and you maynot Maybe you still get accused
of this, but I know whenever wewere working for the
Association, and I would assumeKelly or Esther or any number of
people that are there at anassociation today, breed
associations who provide toolsto their breeders and to the
(27:50):
commercial industry that isselecting genetics from that,
that, association.
Quite often get accused oftelling people how to breed
cattle.
I know that never happened withyou.
No, never.
John Crouch, you mayoccasionally listen to this.
I'm sure he was never, uh, neveraccused of that.
But it was always interesting tome that just because we
(28:13):
coordinated the research, andyes, we had to help make final
say on how, The tools wereformulated with help from PhDs
and geneticists and everybodyelse, but it was always
interesting to me that justbecause we provided these tools
and maybe wrote an article abouthow to use the tools and what
(28:35):
they should tell you that wewere all of a sudden, by rights
telling you whether you have touse this tool or you have to
have them above a certain numberof that.
And Yeah, I don't remember onetime, that I told somebody that
if you don't breed your cow herdto a bull that's above a certain
number on this or that trait,but how, I mean, I think we've
(29:00):
established that that's not thecase.
How do you assure folks of that,from your old days or maybe at
Method Today you still havepeople say that?
how do you sort through that forfolks?
Bill (29:12):
I guess I still have always looked at it, Matt, as
our job was.
Our job is to characterize thegenetics and you have to still
understand in your operation andyour your resources, your feed,
your management.
Kind of how those differenttraits need to be handled and
(29:34):
weighted somewhat.
you know, I think back, when theindexes first came out, we also,
we spent a long time working on,customizable indexes because we,
we were kind of encouraged that,well, they need to be.
be producer specific so I couldadjust the inputs and and try to
(29:58):
create an index that was gonnabe better for my operation or
better for my customers.
And we spent a lot of efforttrying to get that tool put in
place.
It was put in place and it tookseveral years and they finally
decided, nobody still everlooked at it or used it because
it was not the The benchmarkthat was, was being printed.
(30:22):
And so I think that's the thing.
Again, we get back to theindividual traits behind those
indexes.
I mean, they're a good guide.
As you described, there are goodthreshold to set in, in probably
some selection practices, butthere's still individual traits
that you as an operator need tohone in on and whether it's,
(30:45):
putting pressure on milk becauseof your feed resources or if
it's putting, more emphasisbecause I'm trying to get cattle
to go into a prime market, toput more emphasis on marbling or
whatever the case may be.
But, we, we never want to justtake it all.
I guess.
As a grain of salt to think thatthis one piece is going to
(31:08):
describe everything that we needin an operation.
I think that's the otherimportant thing to remember.
Matt (31:14):
Yeah.
I have often toyed with the ideafor our bull sale here, offering
less of the component traits andjust having your maternal index,
your dollar beef index.
You're probably still have tohave calving ease for folks
wanting to buy straight upcalving ease.
(31:34):
Sires for heifers.
have you seen anybody do that?
And is that from a sciencestandpoint, forget about
merchandising and marketing andall the B.
S.
That goes along with trying tosell those bulls.
If you're just looking at itfrom a animal breeding
perspective is a commercialproducer, and I'm just going to
say a typical producer whodoesn't have individual records
(31:58):
on every cow, isn't trackingweaning weights and all these
things on an individual basis,but knows, Hey, I am that guy
that needs to produce more primefor the grid.
Or I am that guy who's trying tomake replacement females and
needs more fertility andfunction and fleshing ability
and all these other things.
would they be better offthrowing all the individual
(32:21):
components away and justselecting on an index like the
science is indicated in otherspecies?
Bill (32:28):
I mean, that leads to kind of what Sally and I have been
doing for the last 11 yearscoming up on it now, Matt.
I mean, really, our our focushas been to work with commercial
producers and provide thoseproducers selection tools that
can utilize both genomics andphenotypic records if they have
(32:54):
phenotypic records in theiroperation.
But, but yeah, a lot of thoseproducers have really just
utilized the selection indexes,I think.
and it's been fun to watch asthey've been able to use that as
I mean, they've used good bullsfor years, AI and natural
service bulls, that have gotgood genetics, but the ability
(33:17):
for them to use those indexes tothen, cut off the bottom third
of their heifers or whatever in,in making, selection there and
just watching the progress thatthey've been able to make in
terms of improvement in theirentire production system,
because when you're selectingfor an index, I may not be
(33:40):
directly, selecting for weaningweight, but I'm I'm seeing
weaning weight improvements.
I'm seeing improvements infeedlot gain.
I'm seeing improvements in thecarcass, uh, traits as well.
And so it's been reallyinteresting to watch those
producers be able to utilize,indexes.
(34:01):
In most cases, I mean, we weoffer a few little component
traits, to the commercialproducers, but try to keep it
very simple.
And most of them are just using,a Combined index for their
selection of their replacementfemales, and it really has
(34:21):
created a lot more consistentproduct in their operations, I
think, as they look down theroad.
So as they're
Matt (34:29):
looking at that, what all, and I guess you've got varying
levels with method genetics,whether they are, DNA on those
commercial females and addingthat to it or just using indexes
off of the sires they've used.
what's the best return on theleast investment for them as far
(34:50):
as, you know, if they'restrapped for labor or aren't
comfortable with all the geneticinformation and computer time
that it requires to have thoseindividual records.
What have you seen that worksthe best or is the most return
for that time involved?
Bill (35:05):
Yeah, I mean, selecting cattle, bulls that they're going
to use in their operation, withwhatever the tools they want to
use to identify those genetics.
I mean, we've just got so much.
good information on geneticstoday that a producer can sort
through.
It's just like you're saying inyour sale catalog.
(35:26):
You worry if there's too much,but it's still producers can use
it.
And the ones that knowspecifically what they want
particular for calving ease oryearling growth or mature size
then it's there for them toevaluate and further select on I
(35:48):
just think, uh, you know, thoseproducers have been able to use
the tools with confidence.
they do what they're supposed toif I'm looking for calving ease,
I can use a calving ease bulland you don't see calving
problems in the Angus breed ingeneral anymore.
I mean, and so that's, that's agreat testament.
(36:08):
And I think that's why we havecontinued to always see the
uptake in the use of the newtools and the new technologies
for the breed as a whole,because it's worked, it's
proven, we continue to enhanceand develop.
Um, and so it's been really neatto just see that, uh, I can, I
(36:31):
can make real progress, realgenetic progress by using these
devices.
Well,
Matt (36:38):
it's pretty evident that everybody wants, or needs, or at
least thinks they want somethinga little bit different in
genetics.
Six months or so ago, I got thisidea and I don't know why I
listened to a podcast, which isdangerous, especially this one,
but I listened to a podcast.
They were talking.
It wasn't even in the beefindustry.
They were talking aboutcrowdsourcing data, and I think
(37:02):
that's how they called it.
But basically, instead of focusgrouping where you 10 really
smart people that already have agood understanding of a given
task or topic and ask them tofigure out what the right
solution is.
they send out thousands ofsurveys and they get better
(37:23):
answers than they did with sevenor eight smart people that
should have been able to come ata more intelligent response.
So I, I had this idea.
I was going to send it out andcrowdsource to our customer base
and let them pick one of mysires for next year.
And I talked to a couple folks.
I don't think you were one ofthem, but I talked to a couple
(37:43):
people and they're like, that'sa terrible idea.
What are you going to do if it'sa bull that you know is not
going to help them, even thoughthey think that the majority of
them picked that bull?
Right.
And so I kind of mulled itaround.
I really still like the concept.
And finally I thought, you knowwhat, I'm just going to do it on
traits.
(38:04):
And I'm not going to let themactually pick a sire, but I'm
going to let them tell me whattraits would be ideal, and then
I'll go find the bull that hasthose traits.
And you know, we as seed stockproducers are supposed to be
able to do that on our own, andwe like to think that we're
better at it than anybody else,but I thought this would be
really good.
And so, we didn't get a hugeresponse on it.
(38:25):
Not enough to.
really run home with it.
But what it told me wasfascinating.
Bill, I was more confused afterI got the data back than when I
was trying to put the thingtogether.
And maybe that just goes to showthat I'm not good at writing a
survey.
But I think it was prettystraightforward.
But the fact of the matter wasof however many dozen people
(38:48):
that responded to this survey,there was no clear answer that
everybody needs this trait.
In fact, If one was the mostimportant and nine was the least
important, I had several simplebusts.
I mean, we had absolutelybackwards from one ranch to
(39:10):
another.
And as I watched them buy bullsin the sale this year, that's
exactly how they bought them.
Why?
Because they have figured outwhat so many seed stock
producers, in my opinion,haven't.
That is that in my environment,with my marketing scenario,
these two traits that the guydown the road or across the
(39:33):
state think aren't even worthlooking at are the most
important things that I need.
And so it was fascinating to meand we can all cuss and discuss
the independent nature oftoday's cattle breeders or
forever cattle producers.
But it's evident and that's whyI think we have to have Various
(39:55):
tools.
A bull doesn't necessarily haveto be the top 1 percent in every
single one of them.
Genetics science shows that it'snot impossible, but doggone
difficult to make it happen.
But, yeah, they're there for areason because different folks
are going to need those.
And that's where the multi traitindexes, I think, make it a lot
(40:16):
simpler.
As long as we as seed stockproducers are still, you know,
collecting the phenotypes andmaking sure that we make the
components work first, and thenthe traits, the
Bill (40:26):
indexes
Matt (40:27):
will
Bill (40:27):
work as a result.
Yeah, that's still one of thebiggest challenges that we deal
with today, Matt, is you putmore traits in the indexes, is
just the confidence level ofsome of those smaller phenotypic
databases that go into some ofthose ePDs that are ultimately
(40:49):
used in the indexes and I knowheritability and weightings, can
kind of control some of theinfluence that some of those
traits have, but it's still achallenge to assess the economic
impact of some of those traitsin, in.
What's the difference between anoperation or different
(41:09):
operations.
Even month to month,
Matt (41:11):
I mean, when you see differences in cattle prices or
the choice, select spread orwhatever else, I mean, what may
have paid you, let's just lookat a terminal type of grid.
what may have paid you hugedividends in April on quality
grade, may be different inAugust.
And that's, you know, that'sjust the nature of the beast,
(41:32):
but we try to.
Kind of work those all outthrough an annual average.
So, again, we may be backing upjust a bit, but we've talked
about phenotypic traits, and ofcourse everybody's familiar, or
at least knows of, genotypes.
Touch, if you will; today wehave all of those things going
(41:54):
into most of our geneticevaluations, hopefully.
first, tell us the differencebetween phenotypes and
genotypes.
And then tell us which one ismore important if there is or
leading the witness here.
Why do we need them both?
Bill (42:10):
You bet.
Of course, kind of in that 20082009, era, we started using DNA
as a portion of the geneticevaluations.
Prior to that, everything wasbased On individual weights and
measures that seed stockproducers collected on their
(42:32):
farms within a contemporarygroup, and that went into.
Genetic evaluation thatultimately produced.
Initially E.
B.
V.
S.
And then ultimately E.
P.
D.
S.
That we know today.
and that you were around, Matt,with the transition, of that all
being done offsite atuniversities by researchers to
(42:56):
bringing it all in house, at theAmerican Angus Association to
where it was all done, theresearch, the actual running of
those genetic evaluations wasdone on site.
in the association, within thewalls of the association, and
that was a giant leap for, for alot of folks out there, that
(43:18):
were used to seeing universitiesbe the only source for that
information.
And so, We kind of endured somechallenges with that as well.
I remember being
Matt (43:30):
one of those challenges, saying you can't tell me that we
can take a drop of blood andknow as much about it as 10
progeny or whatever.
Bill (43:39):
So, so yeah, the use of DNA and working that into the
genetic evaluation along withthose phenotypic, records, into
EPDs.
first started in 2009, Ibelieve, would have been kind of
the first genomic enhanced EPDs,we called them at that time, and
(44:01):
ultimately now we're in a muchbetter technology with the
single step genetic evaluation,which is, using the genotypes
and you're actually building agenomic pedigree on those
animals because we know that,my, makeup, looking at my
(44:21):
grandparents, Is not the same aswhat my brother's genetic makeup
is.
And so we're able to really morespecifically hone in on the
relationships of animals intheir pedigrees, to do a much
better job using both thephenotypic records as well as
the genomics or the genotypes onthose animals for those EPDs.
(44:45):
And so, The genomics, from thoseearly days and creation of AGI.
I mean, to now, what are we at1.
3 or 4 million genotypes in theAngus breed?
I think now maybe it's more thanthat.
Yeah, I haven't looked latelately, but it's exponential
growth.
(45:05):
Yeah.
And so it's easily become thebiggest component of our E.
P.
D.
System.
And that's where we have to relyon the fact that we've got a
great representation ofphenotypic data from the seed
stock producers turning that inand The evolution to work into
(45:27):
new traits and identify hard tocollect phenotypes.
I mean, we've got a goodrepresentation of some of the
low hanging fruit, but, it's achallenge when you go to try to
collect breeding records and tryto collect, mature size.
Records on a cow herd and thingslike that.
But I mean, it's been fun towatch the maternal plus program
(45:50):
and the Angus breed continue togrow and that influence.
But I mean, I think we're and weboth had the opportunity to go
to some meetings to kind of hearabout new opportunities down the
road in terms of trying tocollect phenotypes and in larger
(46:10):
and mass.
And I mean, it's probably gonnamake us really reevaluate how we
have done genetic evaluationsand create these selection tools
when we have the ability tocollect mass amounts of data,
weights, records, measurements,that we can't even imagine what
(46:32):
all that's going to involve on,on commercial cattle and in
large operations and how we canrelate that back and use that.
Uh, I mean, think about theswine industry, the dairy
industry and their ability touse those commercial animals,
commercial records to really,improve and create selection
(46:55):
tools that have, amazingcapabilities in a lot of traits
that, again, we've not even,touched on of what we may
measure and evaluate.
Matt (47:07):
Yeah.
As you, as you talk about thatand I think about how the model.
the phenotypic collection andwhere that data comes from,
commercial and seed stock, youknow, all these different things
and how that model would look ifwe created it today, knowing and
having the genomic component ofthat, as opposed to continuing
(47:30):
to tweak and morph that modelthat started back in the 50s and
60s and slowly up until the 90swhen it all of a sudden blew up,
kind of came to what we knowtoday.
And it reminds me of a quotethat I remember.
Dr Tom Field has used countlesstimes in articles and speeches.
I remember who he credited with,but I think it went,"in times of
(47:52):
profound change.
The learners inherit the earthwhile the learned are perfectly
equipped to live in a world thatno longer exists." the meetings
that we've seen and heard fromfolks within the animal genetics
and production world, basicallysay, if we really want to make
(48:15):
this system work, we can't keepcollecting the data in groups of
five or ten with An individualanimal scale that you get one
reading that might be 10 percentoff because they went to the
water tank right before or rightafter or whatever the case may
be, or, they were sick and wedidn't know it or that calf's
(48:39):
birth weight, he was wet orwhatever the case may be,
they're looking at hundreds ifnot thousands of observations
through digital recording andwalking up to the water tank and
either taking a picture anddoing linear evaluation and
using AI to figure out whattheir actual weight is.
And I mean, it's just mindblowing the amount of data.
(49:02):
So if we in the beef industrycould possibly make that quantum
leap away from the old blupmentality of collecting weights
and running them through this,you know, ratios and into
contemporary groups and all,etcetera, etcetera.
If we can get our heads wrappedaround something different, how
(49:24):
in the world do we manage thedata, the throughput when you
have a million head of cattlecoming in with a million images
that are making, that are makingthat call.
I mean, it's just mind blowingto me how we're going to do
Bill (49:41):
that.
Matt (49:41):
I'm glad I'm
Bill (49:42):
too old to ever, ever get there, Matt.
I'll watch you young guys.
Oh my
Matt (49:49):
goodness, Bill.
Guess what?
At 51, I think I'm maybe too oldas well as slow as sometimes the
beef industry moves.
But yeah, I mean, it's Um,
Bill (49:59):
no, it's a, we're not limited by the technology.
It's an exciting time to see thepossibilities out there, I
guess, to me, and just what canreally be accomplished.
that's what I think is so neatwhen you, you get to working,
the opportunity to work withcommercial producers that have
tried to use some of thistechnology They see it in the
(50:20):
light goes on.
they can understand how, if wejust take this little herd,
that's got 500 head in it andthey can make the progress that
they've made in eight or 10years by utilizing some of the
technology we have today, then Ithink it's exciting to think
that.
I mean, kind of the means togather that information that you
(50:42):
described.
I mean, I think it's excitingand we need to be pushing
forward and right in the middleof it moving forward, I think.
Matt (50:52):
And it's one of those things, like so many, that is
exciting and frightening all atthe same time.
You bet.
And, and with, with good reason.
Um, we all know that there areconsequences, sometimes
unintended, to a, over emphasison a trait or a series of
traits.
(51:13):
And we still have to figure outways either through observation
and common logic and animalhusbandry procedures and things
like that selection or figuringout how we measure Things like
structure and how we measurethings like range cattle ability
and things like that.
And I think we can get thatdone.
(51:34):
but it's not worth throwing thebaby out with the bathwater and
just saying, well, you know,EPDs don't work anymore.
And I we need to throw him out.
Bill (51:41):
Well, that's the thing we've we have learned over the
years, Matt is again, give me achallenge and give me the tools
and I can I can make somethingThat's better.
I can make something that willwork in my environment, in my
management system.
I mean, again, in the earlyseventies, they dealt with the
(52:02):
challenges of these EPDs, EBVs,that isn't going to work.
You and I traveled up and downthe road and heard how indexes,
which was kind of where westarted, were going to be the
demise of the world.
Well, guess what?
You look around, the Angusbreed, became pretty impactful
(52:23):
by producers having the abilityto use those indexes.
I mean, yeah, would we haveliked to have softened things?
In some trade or some area alittle bit along the way or made
some better judgments.
But in reality, you think aboutthe industry and putting beef on
(52:44):
the table for the consumer.
there'd be a lot of other breedsthat would love to experience
what Angus has created 30 years.
And so,
Matt (52:54):
and you don't have to just look at.
The Angus breeds growth innumbers or even Traits within
the Angus breed that haveincreased since those dollar
indexes have come.
Let's look at total industryproduction levels in terms of of
carcass weight and marbling andall these things that quite
(53:18):
often these commercial producersthat were using those bulls
weren't just looking at thosecomponent traits necessarily.
it's, whether we like, some ofthe, again, the unintended
consequences of sometimes anoveremphasis on certain traits
or not, it's hard to argue thatEPDs can sure.
For a given trait that, you'reputting emphasis on.
(53:38):
they can move the needle.
and in the case of somethinglike marbling, and we don't have
time to go into a lesson onheritability estimates, but it's
a highly heritable trait.
one of the highestinheritability is probably of
any that we do.
So you can make progress evenfaster and something like that,
or you can digress even fasterif you use one that's below
(53:59):
breed average or whatever.
I can attest to that as well.
So you've already kind of givenus a taste for what might be in
the genetics space going forthand the way that we collect
these phenotypes and work theminto the system.
I have always held you as avisionary and you're going to
(54:20):
Bristle up and turn red andbecause you're a very modest guy
and don't like to admit that,but you saw things when I was
working with you.
I was young enough and dumbenough as a regional manager not
to realize just how you sawthings coming.
But when I was working there inST Joe, it was amazing to me
that you'd be 5, 7, 10 yearsahead of most of us that thought
(54:43):
we were pretty smart.
What do you see different?
Let's just go beef industrywide.
Let's not limited to just thegenetic space.
What do you see as the biggesttwo or three changes in the
coming 10 to 20 years ahead forthe beef industry?
(55:04):
And you can get as wild as youwant because I'm, I'm not going
to make you come back on in 20years and rub your nose in it.
But that'll, that'll be a
Bill (55:12):
sure thing
Matt (55:14):
now.
Bill (55:16):
no, I don't know, Matt.
I mean, I just think even in thelast few years, things we've
seen that we, we never thoughtwe'd have a real grasp of with
the I mean, the whole beef ondairy deal.
I mean, that was something we,we had no idea was going to come
down the road 10 years ago.
(55:39):
And I mean, look at it and youlook at the consistency of
product that can come out of asystem like that with some
proper planning and Geneticselection.
Yeah, there's been somechallenges, but I mean, it's
nothing that we won't overcome.
and so we we look at you talkabout the whole production
(56:07):
improvements that we've seen inthe beef cattle side of it.
I mean, we keep waiting forthere to be a huge drop off in
the amount of beef that we haveand Yeah, We've lost a couple
million cows.
And guess what?
We haven't seen any drop inproduction.
And so we're gonna continue.
(56:28):
I mean, the whole efficiencyside of the business is still.
I mean, it's been something thatwe still haven't tapped into
very well, especially when youlook at the cow side and I mean,
I don't smart enough to know howto approach it, but I know
there's, there's going to beopportunities out there, that
(56:49):
will allow us as a productionsystem to continue to improve
that.
I think the whole systemapproach to beef cattle
production, I mean, it's, it'sthe bull customer that latches
on to Dalebanks Angus that thenhas the connections and the
networking to help them getthose cattle, moved into, the
(57:12):
next segment of the industry andjust being able to trace more of
the whole production systembecause we haven't done a very
good job of that at this pointyet.
And so I think I mean, it'spretty interesting to watch some
of the new players in thebusiness that are really focused
(57:33):
on trying to do some of thoseexact things, but I think it's
going to be key for a seed stockproducer to really, figure out
where he, he fits in.
And when I say seed stockproducer, I'm talking the people
that are producing bulls, thegenetics for the commercial
segment of the business.
(57:53):
I think where the Angus breedhas enjoyed a lot of.
of a lot of success and we'llcontinue to see those kind of
operations are going to continueto get bigger and bigger and
just the ability for them to, tonot only merchandise and provide
genetics, but then providingservice on the other side.
(58:14):
And we've talked about that forfour years and it's, it's
getting more prevalent everyday.
Matt (58:23):
What about the commercial side of things in terms of size,
cowherd size, number ofparticipants in that segment?
Do you see equal a greaterconsolidation there than at the
seedstock level?
Or what?
What would be your outlookthere?
I think
Bill (58:38):
we still see, I mean, in Missouri, for example, and that
may not be that much differentthan you all are, but it's some
different.
I mean, we see so many Fencesbeing taken out and farming and
I mean, we're going to see lessand less producers and in my
opinion, moving forward, theones that are there are going to
(59:01):
be bigger and they're going tofigure out what their marketing
system is going to be and howthey're going to fit into the
industry as well.
I mean, and so that's, that'swhere I think again, the
commercial side of it is reallyjust, as they grow.
I mean, it's the whole deal wesee out there a lot is, a
(59:24):
producer trying to figure outhow they're going to approach
genetics.
I mean, are they going to try toraise their own replacement
females and and still Um,utilizing some segment of their
sires as more terminal?
Are they going to try to usebulls that can do everything for
(59:46):
them?
And so I think we're still goingto see some real evolution in
that area that we probablyhaven't seen producers focus on
very much because of their sizein a lot of cases.
Matt (59:59):
Well, even though we as an industry are pretty
traditionally motivated andpretty slow to adapt and change.
I don't think there is any doubtin my mind that it's going to
look different and maybesignificantly different.
And those are several areas thatyou know you hinted at that I
think would probably Be on a lotof people's list, so it'll, it
(01:00:22):
will be interesting.
There will always be resistanceto that change and uncomfort and
discomfort and everything else.
But, like it or not, it's a partof the business.
Well, Bill, I think thatprobably gives us plenty to
think about as we're bouncingdown the roads and pastures this
afternoon.
But, uh, I appreciate you beinghere.
(01:00:43):
Always have appreciated your,like I said, your ability to
take some pretty complicated,complex issues and look long
term and figure out what's aboutto come down the pike and then
figure out solutions for it.
So keep up the good work theremethod.
And thanks for everything you'vedone for us and our family and
me and everybody else throughthe years.
(01:01:05):
We'll talk to you soon.
Bill (01:01:06):
Appreciate what you're doing, Matt.
Matt (01:01:08):
Thank you.
Microphone (Yeti Stereo (01:01:09):
Thanks for tuning in to practically
ranching, brought to you byDalebanks Angus.
We appreciate your support.
If you like what we're doing,rate this show and share it with
someone you think would enjoyit.
We'll keep cranking out thecontent.
God bless you.
All.
I look forward to visiting againsoon.
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