#74 - Logan Thompson, The Emotional Aspect of Food - Practically Ranching

Episode Transcript
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(00:05):
Thanks for joining us forepisode 74 of Practically
Ranching.
I'm Matt Perrier and we are herethanks to Dalebanks Angus, your
home for practical profitablegenetics since 1904.
The grass is greening up aroundhere, so it is a great time to
buy some cows.
Stay tuned after this episode tohear about some that we're going

(00:26):
to have for sale.
Logan Thompson is an extensionspecialist in sustainable
livestock feeding at KansasState University.
His main work surrounds howgrazing management can impact
ecosystem function.
In addition to his research,he's also taught some
undergraduate classes regardingcurrent issues in animal ag,

(00:50):
which my daughter Ava took ayear or so ago and, and this is
what piqued my interest to visitwith Dr.
Thompson.
Now, I didn't.
Plan on this episode being oneof those, tie it all together
discussions, but we seem totouch on a bunch of subject
matter and experts from pastPractically Ranching Podcasts.

(01:12):
So I'm gonna post links toseveral of these old podcasts
because a lot of you are new tothe pod and since we mention
them.
You may want to go back andlisten to these as well and, and
hit rewind a bit.
You know, Logan is a sharp,young researcher who has some,
sometimes different perspectivesthan I have, or some different

(01:34):
perspectives than you might haveon beef cattle production and I
think it's interesting becausesometimes we, in the livestock
industry seem to get just a bitdefensive when we are asked to
address and discussenvironmental concerns and
things like this.
But I really appreciated Logan'scomment in this podcast that
sometimes these consumerrequests or demands by groups,

(01:59):
uh, they.
They often make us even moreefficient and more effective and
better at our job of convertingforage into high quality beef.
So whatever your position ontouchy issues like climate
change and traceability andconsumer perceptions or the
environment, I think you'regonna enjoy hearing these

(02:19):
perspectives from Dr.
Logan Thompson.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (02:22):
This whole, discussion about animal
welfare and issues inagriculture, issues in the beef
industry is something that I'mold enough and have lost enough
hair that we didn't talk aboutit when I was in college.
You know, uh, Dr.
Janice Swanson was a, I dunno ifI'd call her a predecessor of

(02:44):
yours, but similar, similar rolewhen I was at K State, but that
was kind of a cutting edge thingto have somebody on faculty
staff at Land Grant Universityjust talking about how we talk
to consumers and how we handleand manage our own business to
make sure we're doing the rightthing on animal welfare and
management, and thencommunicating that.

(03:06):
Today it has become, I mean,everybody talks about telling
our story, um, what changed, whydo you see that it's important
and that we have so many jobslike yours?
And I guess tell us a little bitabout what you do there at K
State as well, but why has thatbecome such a priority in animal
agriculture today?

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (03:26):
Yeah.
So, my, my role at K State is,is changing a little bit, but,
my, my title is SustainableCattle Feeding and,

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (03:34):
Okay.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (03:35):
and I've taught classes centered on
contemporary issues.
And agriculture, um, and, andwelfare was a big part of that.
it's also kind of morphed into,or snowballed into issues around
environment, I, I think welfarereally kicked off the consumer
interest and what beef cattleproducers are doing

matt_2_04-21-2025_08581 (03:55):
Mm-hmm.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (03:55):
of how they're managing, how
they're treating animals.
That, that's kind of where westarted.
Uh, I, I think it's a reallygood thing personally consumers
are asking questions because,you know, when, when my, my dad,
my dad was a cow hand on aregistered corn herford ranch,
in the seventies, eighties,nineties.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (04:15):
Sure.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (04:16):
there really just wasn't a lot of
people asking questions.
Uh, and so it was kind of statusquo.
And then, you know, when, whenfolks started saying, Hey, how
are you treating these animals?
is the animal welfare like on anormal operation?
I think it led to a lot ofreally good things.
Right.
Cattle handling facilities havereally improved training of, of
workers that's really improved.

(04:38):
Um, so from that standpoint, Ido think it's really good.
And, and now it's justenvironment.
and in, in terms of why they'redoing it today, I, I think that
there is, uh, a very emotionalaspect to food, consumers, you
know, well, I think everybody,you know, food can, can drive an
emotional response.

(04:59):
when they felt like perhapsthere were issues in how their
food was being raised, they,they started to, to voice their
concerns to the industry.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (05:07):
I am not sure I've ever heard that
phrase, emotional aspect tofood, but.
It's an interesting one, and Ithink it says a lot about why it
is that they are concerned andwhy it is they have questions
and are curious.
But I'll also flip it and saythat it's also why we're seeing
beef cattle worth what they'reworth and what people are

(05:29):
willing to pay at the grocerystore because it's no longer
just sustenance.
It's an experience.
It's, it can be an emotionalexperience when they put that
strip steak on the grill andeverybody says, wow.
And, and we're selling more,than just protein and zinc and
iron and, and everything elsethat they get in terms of
sustenance.
So I think it can be a goodthing too if we do what we're

(05:52):
talking about today and, and putour best foot forward and manage
the cattle right and everythingelse

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (05:59):
Yeah, a absolutely.
I, I know personally, uh, everytime I fire up the Trager, I
have very emotional response,uh, to whatever protein is going
on there.
and you know, those emotions goboth directions, right?

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (06:11):
right.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (06:11):
and negative.
But we do do a really good jobas a beef cattle industry of
producing a high quality,affordable, and, and nutritious
product, So all, all thoseemotional aspects kind of tie up
into this.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (06:24):
So is there work that's been done?
I'm just curious as to why thatsmoke that sizzle.
What is it that triggers theinner caveman in us as humans
and why Is there, has there beenwork in done there your

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (06:41):
Y you know, I'm sure there has, uh,
mine is only, uh, anecdotal interms of my, my

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (06:47):
own?

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (06:49):
Um, but my, my wife's a meat
scientist by training.
I should, I should have probablyasked her before, before I
jumped on this morning.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (06:56):
Yeah.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (06:56):
that, what drives that response.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (06:59):
It's, it's probably even further south
on K state's campus inpsychology and things like that,
that they may be able to tell uswhy that triggers that, uh, that
response.
But it, it's real.
It's real and there's value.
And I think we have to recognizethat for both reasons.
One, from a opportunity of, ofmarketing higher quality protein
and, and for more money.

(07:19):
But two, because with thatemotion is going to come
questions.
And, and you know, I remember mywife and I got the opportunity
to go back east, gosh, it's beenclose to 20 years ago, to do a
grilling demonstration at afamily owned chain of grocery
stores back there called StewLeonard's.
in addition to that, we kind offound out on our way there that
we're also gonna be on Fox NewsFoxman friends the morning

(07:42):
before.
And so we're brushing up on allthe facts, all of the data about
how many grams of protein and,and all these nutrients that are
in one serving of lean beef.
And we got out there in the PRagency that was kind of in
charge of putting this TV spottogether, said, look, nobody
wants to be educated at six inthe morning.

(08:04):
Just go out there and have fun.
Just go out there and grill andtalk and enjoy it because that's
what people want to hear.
And I think for a long time, andmaybe to a certain extent, we in
the beef industry still believewe've gotta educate the
consumer.
We've gotta tell them why theyought to be buying beef and
enjoying beef.
In my opinion.

(08:25):
We've just gotta show them whyit does trigger that emotional
response and why we are astransparent as we can be with
how and why we have thesegenerational businesses that are
trying to produce this beef.
And I think sometimes we forgetabout that emotion is probably
worth more than all the facts inthe world that we could convey.

logan_2_04-21-2025_ (08:46):
absolutely.
And that, that's something thatwe talk about at K State is, you
know, how, how do you introducepeople to, to agriculture, to

matt_2_04-21-2025_08581 (08:54):
Mm-hmm.

logan_2_04-21-2025_ (08:54):
production?
you know more people today incities than in, than in rural
communities.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (09:00):
Sure.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (09:00):
Uh, there are usually multiple
generations removed.
I think most people in a citylike my wife's from Chicago,
most people are like, oh, mygrandparents farmed, or My
great-grandparents farmed.
But there's several generationsremoved, and if you were to
just, you know, or drop theminto a, into a feed lot, loty a
very different experience thanwhat they probably picture in

(09:21):
their head from, from grand, youknow, their grandparents farm.
part of, you know, uh, one waythat we think about introducing
people to ag is that, you know,uh, tasting, a tasting event or
a grilling event, you know,something that's very low
barrier for entry, but can drivea very pleasurable response,
right?
And, and can kind of introducethem to beef production in a.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (09:45):
Yeah, and in addition to that actual
consumption of the product, theconversations that go along with
that are probably even moreimportant.
But yeah, you've gotta havethat.
That event or that steak orsomething to, to start the
conversation.
So you mentioned feedlots.
Um, that's probably been asticking point and sometimes

(10:07):
some would consider a liability,because of their confined
nature, because of the fact thatthere's not beautiful green
grass and a pastoral type ofsetting for these cattle during
that phase of, um, of the, thebeef production chain, is that
enough of a liability that weneed to address that and

(10:27):
consider that and how it looksto consumers?
Or is there enough value from aeconomic standpoint and from a
taste standpoint and puttingthat marbling in and it's,
that's as efficient a way as wefound to do it yet, is it
something that we just have tofigure out how to make, look as
good as we can possibly make itlook and make it actually be for

(10:49):
that animal, going forth, or isthe consumer pushback gonna be
enough against CAFOs that we'vegotta figure out a different
way?

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (10:55):
I don't see a.
Near or or midterm future wherefeedlots aren't, aren't a part
of our industry.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (11:02):
Right.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (11:03):
your point, they're highly efficient.
Animals are only in there for ashort period of time, you know,
the last few months of theirother life.
and it's a great way to generatea high quality, you know, high
marbling content product.
I, I think that's one of those,those issues that we're gonna
have to stay, on top of all thetime.

(11:23):
there are, there are issues thatwe run into, with, with the lot
production.
We need to minimize those asbest we can and continue to work
to improve on the margins, ofthose welfare concerns continue
to just talk to the consumer.
Reiterate that this is only the,the last few months of their

(11:44):
lifecycle.
The rest of the time they areout on grass.
Their, their moms are out ongrass for the entirety of their
lives.
Right.
It's really just a snapshot intime because when I read, the
New York Times or the WallStreet Journal, when somebody
sends me an email and saying,Hey, have you seen this, this
new article?
always, factory farms for beef,cattle and a feed lot, That's,

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (12:08):
Right.

logan_2_04-21-2025_08581 (12:08):
really what we do in the beef cow
industry.
So we just have to stay on topof that consumer education point
from that standpoint.
And then just constant progress.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (12:18):
So as we see more of our beef cattle,
come from beef on dairy typescenarios and even some confined
beef cow feeding operationswhere the cows maybe aren't on
pasture all of the year, uh,maybe they're out there for a
month or two as they're calvingand things like that.
If that grows; right now, that'sa very small percentage of our

(12:41):
production, uh, from the cowside; but if that grows to be a
significant part, is that aliability?
And how do we best, again, framethat?
if that becomes more economicalto do than having cows out on
grass, how does that look and isthere some liability that we've
gotta consider and risk therefrom a consumer perception

(13:02):
standpoint?

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (13:04):
Yeah, I'll, I'll start with the, the
beef on, on dairy aspect first,so that, that is in my
professional lifetime, that isour biggest change that I've
seen is just the growth in thatsector.
you know, my, my family's tiedinto that sector, you know, you,
you and my brother.
it's a, it's a massive aspect ofthe industry

matt_2_04-21-2025_08581 (13:23):
Mm-hmm.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (13:24):
and with that has come a whole host
of new challenges that wedidn't, we didn't have before.
you know, some of your listenersmight be aware, but you know,
liver abscesses on, on beef, ondairy crosses are, are fairly
prevalent.
Right.
And it's not something we, fullyhave our hands around yet.
so from that standpoint, I, Ithink yeah, it, it could be I

(13:45):
think the liability first andforemost is probably gonna be,
water issues around water andgenerating enough feed, before
anything else.
know, in southwest Kansas, Texaspanhandle, Eastern Colorado,
where a lot of those calves areraised, know, water is, is going
to remain their number oneissue.
but certainly some welfareissues there.

(14:07):
Uh, from the, the confined cowcalf standpoint, to me that
that's more of a, questionaround access to the industry is
what, when I interact withsomebody who's doing a confined
or semi confined calf, A lot oftimes you, you see younger
producers because they need lesscapital to get into the cattle

(14:29):
industry by going a, a semiconfined route because of land
prices.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (14:34):
Right.

logan_2_04-21-2025_08581 (14:34):
Right.
I don't think of too many, anywelfare concerns there.
I think of more, kind ofproducer opportunity.
I wish all cow-calf operationscould, could look like the one
in my head that's, you know,rolling hills and or in the
Texas Hill country and, youknow, beautiful horn herefords
out on grass.
But, they come in many shapesand sizes and I, I think we need

(14:57):
to sell to our consumers thatwe're trying to engage a, a lot
of different producers, who havedifferent issues and different
economic access.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (15:06):
And as, as competition for land
resources continues to increaseboth from within and outside of
agriculture, I, I think thatdecision tree just continues to
fork.
I, I think it gets tougher andtougher to justify and I hate
it.
I'm like you, I, I, I absolutelyhate the thought of having

(15:28):
massive amounts of cows in aconfined type of feeding
operation for most of theirlives.
As you try to pencil it, youngproducer or old, really
expansion things like that.
Um, it is really hard to justifybuying thousands of acres of
who's ever flint, hills, sandhills, wherever the case may be,

(15:51):
grass and pay for that with aset of cows, um, even on today's
prices.
So I think economics are goingto drive that as much as
anything, uh, age or orotherwise.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (16:02):
Yeah.
I mean it's, you know, me and mywife are in our early thirties
and, know, when we talk abouthow we can get further into the
cattle industry, that's the, theone that makes the most sense
for us,

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (16:14):
Yeah.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (16:14):
is to go confinement, especially,
gosh, I was watching cattleprices the other day at special
in Texas, and you had pairsgoing for$5,000, or dang close
to it.
It.
It's really hard to make thatprice work on top of your land
prices.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (16:29):
Right, right.
Yeah.
There's, there are lots ofbarriers to entry in the cow
business and, those two would betoday, those two would be the
big ones.
Uh, the land has been for a longtime and now with replacement
female prices that, uh, that hasbecome part of it too.
as we talk about sustainabilityand some of that work that

(16:49):
you've been doing, and it soundslike are maybe gonna do even
more, from a science standpoint,let's, let's take the perception
and the consumer and what we allhave in our mind as being the
best place to run a set of cowsfrom a looks standpoint.
Which is better from, if we'retalking methane, if we're

(17:12):
talking just blanket carbonemissions, are cows out on
pasture better for quote unquotethe climate discussion, than a
confined set of cows?
Or, or do you have data likethat?
And I, I know we had Dr.
Mitloehner on a while back,episode 46, I think it looks

(17:34):
like, and we've had thisdiscussion a lot, but I, I don't
know that I've ever askedsomebody what's truly better for
the environment?
A set of confined cows or outthere grazing forage and using,
letting the rumen microbes work.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (17:49):
Yeah, if you, you just look at the
sustainability issue and areprobably aware, but
sustainability often boils downto enteric methane,

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (18:00):
Yep.

logan_2_04-21-2025_0858 (18:00):
methane produced from rumen
fermentation.
Uh, generally confined cows willemit less methane or unit of of
feed consumed per pound of feedconsumed rather than a grazing
cow.

matt_2_04-21-2025_08581 (18:12):
Mm-hmm.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (18:13):
Um.
I, I don't normally take thatstandpoint.
take, uh, the standpoint of, uh,resource use and ecosystem
health.
Um, and, you know, if yourlisteners want a picture, you
know, drive from Manhattan,Kansas to to Seattle,
Washington, you're gonna seevast tracks of rangeland, um,

(18:35):
some more extensive\ thanothers.
And a lot of, you know, mountaingrass grassland areas, that are
all managed by grazingruminants, largely cattle.
Right.
And where those areas arehealthy, that's because the
grazing has been done correctly.
So, I, I don't like to boil thesustainability discussion down
just to methane, there's a lotof other aspects to it.

(18:59):
Um, and I think ruminants, youknow, historically dominated
our, our great plains ecosystemsin the form of bison.
We replace them with grazingcattle and they're methane
generated.
Uh, all the, that, that we've.
I've seen published says it'sabout the same.
Right.
So think you take it from aecosystem health and the cows

(19:20):
are, are doing a pretty good jobof that.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (19:23):
So how would you define ecosystem
health?
If, if a consumer, if a producerasked you, what, what is that?
Because there's a lot of nuancein these conversations.
You ask what sustainability isto anyone, and you're gonna get
lots of different answers.
What, what's ecosystem healthfrom Logan Thompson's
standpoint?

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (19:42):
Yeah.
I, I like to look, look down.
you know, different stakeholdersmight, focus in on birds or
wildlife habitat in variousforms.
like, I'd like to look down andsee how much bare ground do we
have.
are there large, uh, areas wherewe don't have grasses?
Are there a multitude ofdifferent forage species

(20:03):
present?
uh, that's what kind of triggersmy mind for Flint Hills, Kansas,
right.
Is a really thriving, uh,variety of, of forage species
and not a lot of bare ground.
Bare, bare ground is, is a wasteof solar energy.

matt_2_04-21-2025_08581 (20:20):
Mm-hmm.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (20:20):
And we want, we want our landscapes
to capture as much solar energyas we can so that we can package
it and, know, usually, beef, butalso all the other, ways we make
money off our landscapes.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (20:32):
So my.
Soil health friends would saythat you have to look down even
a little deeper than what you'relooking at, which is the surface
of the ground

logan_2_04-21-2025_0858 (20:41):
Mm-hmm.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (20:42):
get at the microflora and fauna below
the surface and, and thatecosystem health would then
equal or be a direct function ofsoil health of what's going on
below that surface and why wehave bare spots and why we don't
have a diverse set of foragespecies there in that area of

(21:04):
grass.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (21:05):
you know, soil testing is, is
obviously a part of it.
If, you that's something you're,you're really hyperfocused and
on.
I hope all ranchers are, uh, Ithink re AG Labs is a place that
I recommend people use, but, I,I'm also very outcome driven,

matt_2_04-21-2025_08581 (21:20):
Mm-hmm.

logan_2_04-21-2025_ (21:21):
personally, and I think bare ground is, is a
great way to look at the, theoutcomes.
Great way to measure theoutcomes that you care about.
but yeah, labile carbon andnitrogen or water extractable,
carbon and nitrogen, I.
Microbial communities, they're,they're all a part of it.

matt_2_04-21-2025_08581 (21:38):
There's nothing easier than being able
to go out and look as you saiddown and see what you've got.
You don't need a, you don't needa soil tester.
You don't have to hire somebodyto come in and grid sample.
You, you don't need any tools tobe able to just look at your
feet and, and see what you see.
And that's something that Ithink that all of us, especially
in this region, and we're notalone in this, but the last four

(22:00):
or five years because of lack ofrainfall, lack of timely or
normal rain events, I know our.
Our ranch, and I'm embarrassedto say it, but we've got some
thin stands of native grass thatI am not sure I've ever seen
thin, but because of what we'veseen in the last few years now,

(22:20):
hopefully we just caught somerain here over Easter weekend,
which was a blessing, andhopefully we're setting
ourselves up for a little morenormal climate pattern.
But I think we have to recognizethat we can blame Mother Nature
for a year or two maybe, but if,if that's what we've seen for a
decade, maybe we have to admitthat we've got to change the

(22:41):
management and, and address someof those bare spots and some of
those areas that look likethey've been hammered a little
harder than we've ever seen him.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (22:49):
You know, you, you just touched on
a, a really good point and, andthat's one of grazing management
and paying attention, you know,people in, in the, the ranching
community, you know, you'll hearconversations around mob grazing
or rotational grazing, uh,holistic grazing.
I, I'm a big fan of if you havea plan and you pay attention,

(23:13):
you can, you can see positiveoutcomes.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (23:15):
Right.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (23:16):
I, I try to not like push people one
direction or the other in termsof what their management should
look like, they're payingattention, I, I think we can,
you can make positive changes.
It, it sounds like you payattention to your landscapes and
you can be nimble and kind ofadjust your management as you go
to, lead to the outcomes thatyou want.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (23:34):
Yeah.
We've we've tried to be, what Iwould say, moderate intensity
rotation, and not just, youknow, turning cows out and they
never leave that pasture orturning'em out for 90 or 120
days, we are generally speaking,depending on whether we're down
in the valleys on cool seasonstuff or.
Or up in the hills on native.
But, uh, those cows are, arebeing moved, between a week and

(23:58):
a month throughout the grazingseason.
but it, again, you can't put aclock on Mother Nature.
and you've got to watch andyou've got to be nimble.
And it is not an easy thing todo, in agriculture to, to do
those rotational type programs.
But, yeah, without a plan, it'ssure not gonna work.
If you just heard a podcast anddecided, Hey, I'm gonna put 10

(24:19):
times as many cattle on this,and all of a sudden you realize
that your fences aren't set upfor it, your drainage isn't set
up for it, your, whatever thecase may be, um, you, you can
run into roadblocks in a hurry.
So from a consumer standpoint,how, what would you say as
you've read some of the, theresearch as you've talked with

(24:42):
consumers, you as yourself, uh,even talking with students.
Rank may be the top five, andI'll say concerns or interests
or whatever.
I mean, I'm not trying to leadthe witness here, but animal
welfare, climate, all thesedifferent things.
What is driving their concern ortheir curiosity about beef

(25:04):
production today in order fromhigh to low?

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (25:08):
you know, there's, there's what
consumers, you

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (25:11):
Yeah.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (25:12):
say, and

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (25:13):
right.
Yep.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (25:13):
their dollar, their dollar says.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (25:15):
Yep.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (25:16):
and I'm guilty of that myself, uh,
but I.
I would say animal welfare, isusually still number one.
Following in some order is gonnabe price, environmental
concerns, and, health, you know,human health issues, those get
ranked differently, that's,that's normally major issues.

(25:40):
that, there's usually a prettybig gap.
but for whatever issue comes up,maybe something like a
antibiotics, you know, or ex's,exogenous hormones, something
like that.
But those top four are prettycommon.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (25:54):
So let's break down those top four.
So we've got welfare, price,environmental concerns and and
effects on human health,starting with welfare.
What specifically I.
Do they wanna know what, whatspecifically do they expect from
us as producers?
A, how we treat our animals, butB, what we tell and how deep we

(26:16):
go into explaining what it is wedo with these cattle to get'em
from point A to point B.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (26:23):
I, I think they just want to know
that the meat they're about toconsume was raised in an ethical
manner and that animal istreated right through its entire
life.
and you see that with, you know,if there's a, a little QR code
where somebody can pull up apicture of the rancher that
raised that animal, right?
That, that seems to likevalidate that this is a ethical

(26:44):
product to consume.
How we communicate that is alittle tricky.
I know that there are, somehumane labels or some welfare
labels out there, but labelsaren't that effective because of
just fatigue from seeing so manyof them.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (26:58):
Right.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (26:59):
so I, I think that's more, you know,
cattleman's organizations and,and land grant institutions
getting out there and, and, uh,kind of telling the story.
but yeah, they just wanna knowthat it's, it's raised properly.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (27:11):
So raised properly, raised in an
ethical manner.
man, you talk about some roomfor interpretation.
I mean, uh, as an example.
We run Angus cows here.
We were calving in the midst ofthat negative 20 wind chills and
things like that we're not setup to calve cows inside.
So the day before that stormrolled in, we went out and

(27:35):
everybody that hadn't calved tothat AI date that was probably
gonna come in the next seven to10 days.
We loaded up outta the pasturehauled to a facility where we're
normally breeding cows, but weset up little pens in there, and
we got'em outta the wind, and wehad places we could even get'em
inside if we needed to.
I took a picture of that and oneof the calves that had been born

(27:56):
had been nursed was golden.
He had about an inch thick ofsnow on him.
His mom had him stashed in agood spot out of the wind, and I
posted that as, as a, Hey, wedid what was right.
We achieved success.
This calf is very healthy, and Igot a comment or two, that poor
animal how, you know, they,they, they weren't accusatory,

(28:19):
but their comments were clearlythat isn't ethical because that
cow, that calf has snow on it.
Well, it has snow on it becauseit's warm and it's keeping its
warmth inside and not meltingthat snow.
I knew that it was in goodshape, but in their
interpretation, I was abusingthat animal because he or she
wasn't inside outta the coldjust like the humans were.

(28:40):
So this whole humane treatmentof animals, sometimes I think.
It gets taken a little too far.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (28:48):
It, it does.
And, and that kind of, therethere are animal welfare
scientists who study thatphenomenon.
Exactly.
you see it in, say, like theCalifornia egg standards,

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (29:00):
Right.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (29:01):
With the cage-free eggs.
Is animal welfare improved inthose aviaries, Potentially, no.
Across the board.
When it comes to, things likecannibalism or,, just general,
well, chickens are uniquecreatures, so they, they like to
cause, mayhem a little bit rightthere, there are negative animal

(29:23):
health impacts in that system,right?
But they touch some otheraspects of animal welfare that
consumers like chiefly.
It's a more natural setting,right?
And so I, I think your exampleis just that as, uh, as well,
you know, it's a natural settingthat that calf is probably very
cold a little bit, but he wasalso perfectly fine and his

(29:45):
performance isn't gonna benegatively impacted, So it,
there's not a, a one size fitsall solution and you you can't,
create a perfect system forevery stakeholder.
that's part of that outreachthat, telling our story that
we've kind of talked about somuch the, the animals are built
to be outside.
They're not built to be inside.
They, they can handle that.

(30:06):
We were calving, as well duringthat cold storm.
it was, uh, quite fun when wewalked out there the first day
and it's like, oh, there's threeof y'all on the ground.
That was the choice.
Uh,'cause y'all aren't two yet.
but you just, you know, youtreat'em right.
You do everything you can tomake that animal comfortable.
and, and we didn't lose anycalves in that, that event
either.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (30:25):
Good.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (30:25):
so there, there's kind of levels to
it, right?
And welfare is not something wecan measure.
You can't go up to a cow andsay, are you happy?
we look at, you know, differentmetabolites in the blood.
We look at normally performancemetrics to say, are, are we
reaching stressful levels of,of, cortisol, is performance

(30:46):
being impacted?
But we, we can't actually go upand just ask like we can a
person.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (30:49):
Right.
Sometimes I'm not sure.
We're very good at asking peopleif they're, if they're well
either.
But uh, that's a whole differentpodcast.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (30:58):
At the very least, we're probably
not good at giving honestfeedback

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (31:01):
There you go.
There you go.
That it's not, it's not theinterrogator.
It's, it's the answer.
Yeah.
I, I think that is the challengethat I have is, uh, in this
whole, this whole discussion iswhere is the threshold of doing
what is raising these cattle inan ethical manner?
Because, uh, what an ethicalmanner is to someone that's

(31:23):
never had to care for animalsthat are, as you said, supposed
to live outdoors and all theyknow about animal, quote unquote
production is their chihuahua ortheir cats, or whatever the case
may be.
It, it's, yeah, it, it is, thereis a d very, very nuanced set of

(31:44):
perspectives there to, to haveto wade through.
But I, I think that, again, inall of this discussion, I think
that the fallback is when indoubt, be transparent.
Show what it is we're doing andwhy.
And usually that why part andthe fact that we care probably

(32:06):
more for this cow herd than whatwe do sometimes for our own
family or definitely our ownhealth, personal health,
sometimes I think helps us asmuch as anything.
and I guess that leads intoanother question about this
welfare discussion.
How do we best share that todaywith the technologies that are

(32:28):
available?
What's the best way that we tellthat story?

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (32:33):
well first I wanna just circle back
to, to that last kind of

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (32:37):
Okay.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (32:38):
You know, I think your willingness
to have those conversations inthe post and share and be
honest, that it can lead tosome, like re really, really
positive changes too.
there's a dairy I know, and Iwon't say who they were, but,
they invited, Out to, theirfacility.
they were strategic in who theyinvited out, and the person made

(33:00):
a suggestion and they said,okay, we'll trial it.
We'll, we'll make this change.
And they, they saw benefits, interms of, calf health, like
having honest, truthful andtransparent conversations, even
though it's uncomfortable andcan lead to also positive
changes in, in our ownoperations.
Um, and then your, your nextquestion was, you know, how best

(33:22):
to, to share it.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (33:23):
Right.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (33:24):
You know, social media's a a bit, of
a, a tricky landscape thesedays.
and personally, I'm a fan of, ofanything, video formatted, Just
because I think we're able totell a, a better story, and I'm
working with some folks over inag com, at K State here to, to

(33:45):
help do some of that on, somestocker operations.
you know, allowing producers totell their story in kind of a, a
video format I, I think are veryuseful.
but I, I think more so than howyou do it, I think it's who you
target.
You can pretty easily shareinformation on whatever

(34:06):
platform, Twitter, or it's notTwitter anymore.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (34:09):
X.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (34:11):
Blue Sky, I think that's another one.
YouTube, you, you can sharethings to other ranchers
probably pretty easily.
but designing it to, to capturethe attention of consumers is a
little bit different.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (34:24):
Yeah.

logan_2_04-21-2025_08581 (34:24):
That's where I think kind of the video
format can help consumers have,you know, they picture the red
barn when they think of a ranch,and

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (34:33):
Right.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (34:34):
to share that a little bit easier
in the video.
And I, I think it kind ofgrounds you a little bit.
and then obviously like todaywe're on a podcast.
Everybody listens to podcasts 247 It seems when I watch
students, walk around, they'realways listening to podcasts.
I, I think that's an anothergreat way, to share, share our
story.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (34:52):
So on that video.
and I think the key part ofthat, as you said, so producers
can tell what it is they'redoing and explain that.
And I think that's the thing youget with video outside of the
still image is, is thevoiceover, do we go that alone?
Do we go that, you know, raw andfresh and in the moment
ourselves?

(35:13):
Or do they need to be thesehighly polished, edited
carefully with a high qualityvideo, get the right shot and
the perfect background music,which resonates better today,
and going forth to consumers.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (35:31):
I, I'm not super adept at, at
social media, but, uh, I dabblein it

matt_2_04-21-2025_08581 (35:36):
Mm-hmm.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (35:37):
just to observe.
And when I, producers I see whoget the most engagement are on
the raw side of things,

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (35:45):
Okay.

logan_2_04-21-2025_08581 (35:45):
right?
You know, the, the videos at4:00 AM on a dairy,

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (35:49):
Right.

logan_2_04-21-2025_08581 (35:49):
Those, those capture, I, I think pe
people's attention.
plus I think that's multifacetedbecause people realize that
you're up at 4:00 AM and youprobably have been for a couple
hours.
I, I think the raw side serves areally good purpose, and those
are things you can, you canshare, you know, frequently.
but the, I think the stuff has arole.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (36:11):
Okay.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (36:11):
for sure.
You know, those things, thoseare probably less frequent, uh,
and probably more, uh, I guess.,More appropriate for tackling
tougher topics or,

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (36:24):
Okay.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (36:24):
long form, conversations.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (36:27):
Yeah, I, I would agree.
And, and I think a mix of bothis where I see the most benefit.
but you know, for years andmaybe even still today, in some
circles, producers will say, I'msick of hearing this,"tell my
story." That's what the BeefCheckoff is for.
That's what the university landgrant institutions are for.

(36:47):
That's what my Cattleman'sAssociation is for.
And I, I think, yes, they canhelp that.
I, I think they can help usunderstand and learn and know
what it is that we need to puton there.
But I think a lot of it has tobe, maybe not all of us, but at
least some of us have to takethat camera, that phone, and

(37:09):
capture something that's gonnahelp tell a story.
And sometimes it may not bepretty, but.
it, I think the more raw and themore real that it is, and the
more that it shows what we'redealing with and why we are
making the choices and what, youknow, what we have to consider
as we're doing that.

(37:29):
I, I think there's huge value.
I, I just,, yeah, it has to bepersonal.
I don't know that we always haveto have it in selfie mode with
us in it, but I do think thatthere is value in seeing a face,
not just a voiceover that soundsreally cool.
And telling everything about thecattle production beef industry,
uh, I think, I think there'svalue in the realness of, of us

(37:51):
being on there and ourselves.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (37:53):
Yeah, and you know, the, the checkoff
does, you know, do a, a prettygood job of, of tackling
consumer

matt_2_04-21-2025_08581 (37:59):
Mm-hmm.

logan_2_04-21-2025_08581 (38:00):
things like that, but.
You know, we're here in, inKansas kind of central as
Kansas.
What I think what's gonnaresonate more with the consumer
in Kansas City?
Is it gonna be something fromthe checkoff that might be a
rancher from California?
Or would it be something they'rejust scrolling random social
media and they see a, a rancherin the Flint Hills or down in

(38:24):
the Osage.
Right.
And it's a, an accent that makessense because they've heard it
that day.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (38:29):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I get it.
Yeah.

logan_2_04-21-2025_08581 (38:31):
having producers share probably helps
within their own communities.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (38:35):
Yep.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (38:36):
so, uh, it takes, it takes all
kinds, but also to your point,probably everybody doesn't need
to do it.
my dad for example, he, heprobably shouldn't get, get on
social media.
Um, but those who can, you know,I always try to encourage.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (38:49):
Yeah.
So your second point was priceand consumer preferences.
When we went welfare, price,environmental concerns, human
health.
I, I don't know that you or Iare the expert on retail
pricing.
Um, may get Dr.
Tonsor or somebody else back on.
Let's, unless you have somethingto add on how it is that we
affect that the best way to, tokeep consumers buying beef.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (39:13):
The, the only thing I would probably
say is, we talk about a lot ofissues, but then when you look
at how people make theirdecisions, a product can have 10
different labels on it.
They're gonna usually go withthe one that's the lowest price
point and or looks the best.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (39:30):
Yep.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (39:31):
Um, that, that still really drives
consumer decisions more so thananything else.
Yeah,

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (39:38):
Yeah.
I, I would agree.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (39:39):
to anybody.
I.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (39:40):
Yeah.
It, it's not, but.
You said earlier, we have tolook at what the consumer says
they want and then what it isthey actually do.
That's a classic example.
I mean, you know, whole Foods tothrow them out there as an
example, but it's an easy one.
They have their no hormones, allnatural organic gap for,

(40:01):
everything you could put on thatpiece of beef.
And it is expensive enough thatit may get consumers in the door
because that's what they thinkthey want and then they trade
down to whatever the cheapestcut is and, but they still buy
it at Whole Foods and it's nextto this other stuff, so that's
good enough for me.
Would that be kind of what we'reseeing sometime from a consumer

(40:22):
price discussion?

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (40:24):
Yeah.
I, I mean there, there are rolesfor niche products,

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (40:28):
Right.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (40:29):
I'm a, I'm a big fan of grass fed
beef, personally.
I really enjoy it.
It is a niche market, and eventhough consumers might say that
they want everything grass fed,they when it comes to spending a
little bit extra money on thatpound of ground beef,

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (40:43):
Yep.
Yeah.
So yeah, I think that's a goodpoint and one that I'm glad you
brought up on the pricestandpoint.
'cause it doesn't matter if it'sbeef or Cheerios, you know, they
can say one thing, but you gottalook at what's in their cart and
what they're actually taking tothe register.
So environmental concerns wasthree.
Um, I mean there's a whole hostof things there.

(41:04):
Obviously you said when we'redealing with cattle, we're
talking about mainly entericmethane.
What are, just list those out asa subset of environmental
concerns.
What are a typical consumersconcerns as it pertains to beef
industry on environment?

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (41:22):
Yeah.
So, uh, climate change would beone, you know, the role of beef
cattle produ production on, onthe changing climate.
for us, uh, our greenhouse gasthat we emit is, is methane.
Um, it, it does trap energy inthe atmosphere, just like carbon
dioxide.
Well, not just like,

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (41:40):
Right.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (41:41):
bit more effective at trapping

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (41:42):
Yeah.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (41:42):
the atmosphere.
Um,

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (41:44):
But it doesn't stick around as long,
right?

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (41:46):
it does not,

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (41:47):
Yeah.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (41:48):
to 12 years before it's, it's broken
down.
Um, so it, it's a, a flow gas iswhat we call

matt_2_04-21-2025_08581 (41:54):
Mm-hmm.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (41:55):
and carbon dioxide.
Uh, if your listeners don'tknow, I, I think of it as a gas,
that once it's emitted, it'seffectively there until it's
not.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (42:03):
Hmm.

logan_2_04-21-2025_08 (42:04):
something pulls it down, um, it's, it's
going to remain in theatmosphere.
And then nitrogen would beanother, key one for us.
So, nitrogen in the form ofammonia or, you know, wet
nitrogen depositions and RockyMountain National Park.
you know, that was an issue onthe, the front range of Colorado
for a while.

(42:24):
also nitrous oxide, um, it'sanother greenhouse gas and then
particulates.
Um, so air quality issues likethe smog you might see over a
feedlot, is gonna be related to,to nitrogen.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (42:37):
So the fourth of those was human
health.
And I think you kind ofseparated out from human health,
um, added hormones andantibiotics and things like
that.
I, I would almost throw those inthere because it's a perceived
part of human health.
But what are folks concernedwith from a beef industry
standpoint and, and consumptionof beef in the human health?

(43:01):
Arena.

logan_2_04-21-2025_08581 (43:02):
there, there are some, some studies out
there and, uh, it, it's honestlypretty, uh, conflicting on the
impact of, of beef on humanhealth.
Um, but there's studies that sayit causes cardiovascular disease
and, and increases prevalence ofcancer.
Um, and there's other studiesthat say no, uh, within, this

(43:23):
range usually somewhere aroundless than a hundred, uh, grams
per day.
there's no negative impacts on,on human health.
but I, I think whenever a, aproduct or a food gets a
negative, connotation with humanhealth, the ramifications are
long lasting.
Um.
So just because there's studiesthat say there isn't, doesn't

(43:44):
wash out the studies that saythere are, and so consumers are,
are concerned about that.
Uh, chiefly the kind of thoseissues, right.
Uh, heart disease and, andcancer risks.
and then yeah, the, the hormonesor antibiotics, I, I do tend to
separate those just because Itie those to, you know, general
management practices orspecific, technologies.

(44:07):
and they, they don't reallyimpact human health.
but there are concerns over, youknow, metaphylaxis use of
antibiotics, which we've sincereduced significantly with the
VFD.
and then the, you know,increased hormones from
implants.
they, they see.
I think the number is a 30%increase in estrogen and the

(44:28):
implanted steer, and that kindof makes people nervous.
They don't realize that that's aincrease from 0.03 nanograms to
0.06 nanograms.
Um, the final product, which is,is biologically irrelevant.
they just see the 30% numberand, uh, can cause some concern.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (44:46):
Yeah, you'll have to, if you get a
chance sometime.
I had a lady by the name ofDiana Rogers on the podcast
back, uh, episode 40.
I just had to look it up here,but.
You know, you said that some ofthis science sticks around a lot
longer, even if it has beendisproven.
I mean, she talks about thatwork that Ansel Keys did in the
forties and fifties, and as itpertains to beef's impact on

(45:11):
heart health and cardiovascularhealth.
And, and, um, even though a lotof folks, including some
journals of medicine have saidthis was not sound science.
It's still there.
It's still in some of theseteaching of, you know, med
schools and still in the, um,accepted practices of, of some

(45:32):
human health practitioners.
And, uh, yeah, it, it, it hasbeen, I think though that we are
seeing those tides change.
In fact, we, if you look hardenough, and again, you don't
have to listen to many podcastsand you'll find somebody that
says not only can you eat beefas part of a heart healthy diet?
You maybe should be in cuttingback some of the carbs.

(45:52):
And so it's, it's fascinating tome how quickly those trends, uh,
when we talk about human healthcan change.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (45:59):
Yeah, and Diana is, is wonderful.
I, I've got to interact with hera couple of times.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (46:04):
Yeah.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (46:04):
she, yeah, she's really, really
wonderful.
I, I think everybody should gore-listen to that episode.
and that, you know, ties intoanother point is all these
issues we talk about, the worldis cyclic.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (46:16):
Yeah.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (46:17):
so, you know, these issues will come
back around in 15 years.
and we will be onto somethingelse in the interim, most
likely.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (46:24):
The, that, that could be, uh, used in
a lot of different referencesand a lot of different
discussions.
Yeah.
That, that cyclicity of, oftrends and of the world's, um,
beliefs is Yeah, it's, it'spretty interesting.
So we, we talked about that,those environmental concerns.
Can the beef industry ever, inyour opinion, can we ever become

(46:50):
carbon neutral?

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (46:53):
So with traditional accounting
framework, uh, and by that Imean GWP 100

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (47:00):
Okay.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (47:00):
be the way we would account for
methane, uh, most likely No.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (47:06):
Okay.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (47:06):
Um, if we knew use newer accounting,
one called GWP Star, that takesinto that short-lived nature
that you mentioned of methane inthe atmosphere, yes, we, we
probably could.
Um, uh, we just published apaper on that last week.
Uh, but, uh, it's really gonnabe accounting driven.
Um, personally I would like toget beyond this focus on carbon

(47:31):
talk about all the other, uh,aspect of sustainability and
sustainability.
I know in today's 2025, climatecan be a tricky word really.
We're talking about productionefficiency, you know, animal
health,

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (47:45):
Yep.

logan_2_04-21-2025_0858 (47:45):
health, the, the normal things

matt_2_04-21-2025_0858 (47:47):
Exactly.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (47:48):
care about.
Um, but I would like us to focusin on other issues.
You know, I, I think of, forKansas, I think water and
manure.

matt_2_04-21-2025_08581 (47:58):
Mm-hmm.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (47:59):
we have big feedlots and dairies.
We have a lot of manure tohandle and, and get rid of, and
package in a way that'seffective.
And we have water issues in thestate.
And I, I afraid that sometimeswe spend too much time focused
on carbon and not enough timefocused on regionally specific
issues.
Uh, well, and the nationalconversations anyway.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (48:22):
On those national and even global
conversations aboutsustainability.
I know, you know, a lot of usare familiar with this global
round table for sustainable beefproduction, and I know that
group tried to frame thesustainability discussion in
several different things,including financial and social,
uh, sustainability, you know,rural communities and the health

(48:45):
of, and rural families andthings like that.
Does that, is that valid as wetalk to consumers or is
sustainability to them still.
Environment and naturalresources.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (49:00):
Oh one, it's a hundred percent
valid.
you can't be sustainable ifyou're not economically
profitable.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (49:05):
Amen.

logan_2_04-21-2025_0858 (49:06):
There's no, there's no conversation.
If I were to come to you andsay, Hey, use this type of
management, it's gonna increase,it's gonna reduce your carbon
footprint, it's gonna cost you ahundred thousand dollars a year,
but

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (49:16):
Yep.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (49:16):
you would laugh me off the place.
Um, so it is valid.
Uh, but consumers don't alwaystake that into consideration.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (49:25):
Yep.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (49:25):
do focus more on the kind of carbon
myopia aspect of, ofsustainability.
So just, you know, put blinderson and is carbon.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (49:35):
Yep.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (49:37):
so it, it probably needs to, I
think, change as, as we moveforward to have people realize
if, if you want aenvironmentally friendly
product, most likely it's goingto cost more at the grocery
store.
and until they're willing tospend more on that, then there's
not a market signal.
Right.
Going back to the productionlevel to, to change in any sort

(49:59):
of drastic way.
Just our, our kind oftraditional, um, marginal
improvements year over year.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (50:06):
So changing gears just a little
bit, but I think there's someties between that carbon
discussion and as you mentionedearlier, cattle that are out on
grass that are on forage, andthose rumen microbes are
breaking that cellulose down aregoing to emit more methane.

(50:28):
Plus most of our consumers areaccustomed in the US to grain
finished beef, and that's whatthey prefer.
But you had said that personallyyou like grass fed beef better,
and I know there are others thatwould say the same thing.
I'm curious, just from yourstandpoint, and, and you're not
talking as a, an employee ofKansas State University in this

(50:51):
discussion, why is it that youprefer grass fed over grain fed?
And why do you think that that'sa niche that needs to continue?
If not grow?

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (51:02):
Yeah, so definitely taking my, my K
state hat off for

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (51:05):
There you go.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (51:06):
I don't want any of my feedlot
stakeholders to hold, hold myfeet to the fire.
I do have feedlot research goingon right now for the record.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (51:13):
Good.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (51:13):
You know, I grew up on a ranch.
I've done grass finishing work,in my past.
enjoy the complexity of thatproduction style.
grass finishing is a verycomplicated, energetic equation.
How do you get those last 60 or90 days on grass, done

(51:34):
efficiently?
How do you get enough energypackaged into'em when that
animal is, is inefficient?
it's, it's complicated, right?
There's a lot of differentforages you can think about or
choose or trial.
Uh, you can, you know, over feedin the winter, you know, try to
maintain plan and nutrition.
You can under feed and look at,compensatory growth.

(51:55):
It, it's just complicated and Ienjoy the process.
so that, that's my personalbias.
I understand feed lots arecomplicated as well.
it's just what I findfascinating.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (52:06):
Well, I think anytime you are able to
limit Mother Nature's immediate,role in the equation, IE
harvested grains or forages thatare delivered and you can get'em
from a lot of different areasand yeah, it makes it maybe more
expensive one year or you haveto get it from a different
region, but you generally knowit's going to be there as

(52:27):
opposed to, as you said, if you,if you know this animal's gonna
be on your ranch grazing yourgrass and all of a sudden.
You're accustomed to six inchesof rainfall in August,
September, and October, and youdon't get six tenths for two or
three years.
Yeah, you're in trouble tryingto finish those over a winter
and things like that.

(52:48):
So yeah, I think there it, it isa lot more complex.
Do you see in the US justdomestically, do you see grass
finished, forage finished beefincreasing, decreasing, or
staying in its kind of nicheform right now over the next

(53:08):
decade, two decades?

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (53:10):
Uh, I think we've seen it increasing
since, oh, maybe the late twothousands.
You know, it's increased alittle bit.
Um, it's still very much a nichemarket and that won't change.
but I, I think, you know,whether it's increasing because
we have more people orincreasing because of demand,
uh, those are probably questionsfor, uh, Dr.

(53:32):
Zer.
I, I think it's most likely justincreasing because of interest
in the topic, not necessarilyoverall demand for the product.
Um, and I think that'llcontinue.
you know, There's some reallygood grass fed producers that
have gotten out there and got onsome really big platforms.
one that jumps out at WillHarris at

matt_2_04-21-2025_08581 (53:52):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (53:53):
has been really front and center on
this, on this conversation.
I think that'll, you know, kindof get people's interest in the
short term, whether we retainthem over the long term.
You know, it's probably a no,but I would like to think we'll
retain them to some level.
but I, I think grain finishingis and will be the predominant,

(54:14):
commodity in the next 10 or 15years.
It's not going anywhere.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (54:19):
So whether it be grass fed versus
grain fed, or gap four versusnatural versus commodity beef,
whatever the case may be.
Anytime that we have a segmentedmarket, we're going to run the
risk of one of those segmentstrying to explain their value

(54:40):
over another segment defamingthat first one, and we see it
all the time in branded beefareas that pit one breed or one
type over another, or amanagement style, natural versus
tradit or conventional.
How do we,'cause I thinkthere's, I, I think it's healthy

(55:02):
to have those differentsegments, but how do beef
producers do what they feel likethey want and have a demand to
produce without throwing therest of the beef industry under
the bus?
Or is that a concern?

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (55:17):
well, I, I mean, it's a con, it's kind
of a pet peeve of mine.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (55:21):
Okay.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (55:22):
you know, when, when it comes to
interacting with the consumer,you know, it should be as a, as
an industry.
And we are communicating withour consumer not grass fed beef
versus natural versus grain fed.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (55:37):
Right.

logan_2_04-21-20 (55:37):
Unfortunately, I, it, it seemed like it, it's
been an issue for a very longtime, so I, I can't honestly say
it's gonna go away.

matt_2_04-21-2025_08581 (55:45):
Mm-hmm.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (55:45):
I would like to thank that people
can start to see that there aresome when it comes to pitting
one side of the industry againstthe other.
I, I think when it comes toconsumer education, consumer
outreach, that's not the, thetack that we need to have.
Um, but it, it is an issue in myopinion, uh, how we solve that.

(56:07):
I'm, I'm not really sure, justbecause everybody has their own
value set and their own set ofmorals.
So they're gonna, they're gonnaoperate it based off of those.
But if we could minimize it,man, that would be wonderful
because honestly, beefproduction is such a challenge
and none of us make money veryoften.
Um, so I, I don't really seethat there's a, a need to put

(56:29):
one side down and raise anotherside up all the time.
We're all serving differentconsumers more often than not.
There's not a lot, a lot ofoverlap.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (56:37):
I think a rising tide lifts all
boats.
And I think we have to recognizethat.
But you know, it, you mentionedWill Harris.
I hear him on Joe Rogan, and Ijust wanna scream, I like what
Will has done, but of course,Rogan is the world's best at
pushing the right buttons tomake sure he pits an alternative

(56:59):
form of whatever the case maybe, beef production, health,
whatever, against theconventional traditional.
Um, and so he leads the witnessa bit on that podcast, but it,
it almost, always seems to bethat in an attempt to describe
the value of whatever differentproduction practice that beef

(57:22):
producer is using.
they cast a very, very negativelight on whoever it is they're
competing against.
And, and quite often that'sconventional beef production.
And I think that's dangerous.
I mean, because again, like Isaid, a rising, rising tide
lifts all boats.
And I think we have to recognizethat's that.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (57:37):
Yeah, I, I waited quite a while to, to
listen to that episode

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (57:41):
Yeah,

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (57:42):
uh, Will, was on there just'cause I
was thinking, man, what, what isgonna get said?
Um, I, I didn't think it was asbad as I, I, I didn't think it

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (57:51):
you were prepared

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (57:52):
but, uh, yeah.
I think if, if you're makingmoney producing beef, you should
just be happy as you can.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (58:01):
Yeah.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (58:02):
a living and supporting your
family, um, and not try to, toput other folks down.
It's tough to do.
No matter which aspect of theindustry you're in.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (58:12):
Yeah, no doubt.
No doubt.
So where do you see thisconsumer, um, where, where do
they go from here?
What are their preferences?
Or do we, do you hear or see anynew trends on the horizon?
I mean, 40 years ago, um, weweren't even talking about
climate change.

(58:32):
And cows aren't, aren't emittingmuch more methane today than
they were then.
And yet it's a big thing.
What's the next layer that wehear that folks are interested
and curious in and wanting toknow more about in beef
production?

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (58:47):
Uh, one is gonna be as technologies
come online that reducegreenhouse gases.
is the consumer response tothose in the us?

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (58:59):
Yeah.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (58:59):
Uh, we've seen a little bit in the
UK last, uh, fall, early winteron a, their kind of response to
a feed product or feed additivecalled Bovaer, uh, being trialed
there.
And it will be very interestingto see how they respond here

matt_2_04-21-2025_08581 (59:15):
Mm-hmm.

logan_2_04-21-2025_0858 (59:16):
they've been telling the industry
environment was a concern, sonow that we have some, additives
that are designed to reduceenvironmental impacts, are they
gonna positively respond?

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (59:27):
Yeah.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (59:27):
you know, my, guess if I were to be
cynical, I, I would, I use RBSTas an example and,

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (59:34):
Yep.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (59:35):
say that it might be a negative
response.
but hopefully, we're able toshare that these are safe,
products and, they don't impacthuman health and they don't
impact animal welfare and justreduce environmental impacts,
and, they'll be willing toaccept those products being
used.
I, I think in the next fiveyears that will be, uh, the
thing that I'm kind of keyed inon are they, how are they gonna

(59:57):
respond to this?

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (59:59):
Well, and it's so ironic because.
Just like those products youmentioned, I'll throw in
ionophores and implants.
I mean, if we truly as aconsumer and as a population, if
we truly are interested insustainability and using our
natural resources as efficientlyand effectively as what we can

(01:00:20):
and feeding a world andeverything else, things like
growth, promotants andionophores do exactly that.
they let us achieve more withless, and yet the consumer
perception is that they'reunnatural and that they're
affecting human health.
So on in those cases, we didn'teven try, I don't think as an

(01:00:41):
industry to get out ahead of itand explain to consumers, okay,
this was the challenge, this wasthe problem, this was the
technology that we worked withresearchers and industry and
everybody else, health officialsto put in place to address that
challenge.

(01:01:01):
Um, so we're gonna start usingit.
So be ready and this is why it'ssafe.
Do, how much of that can we do?
Should we do, should we havedone 40 years ago when some of
these others came online?
And, and how do we do that goingforth?

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (01:01:14):
I think the companies are, are
starting to get out ahead of ita little bit.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (01:01:18):
Okay.

logan_2_04-21-2025_08581 (01:01:19):
mostly I, I, think because of the
response in the UK beinggenerally negative,

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (01:01:24):
Right.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (01:01:25):
uh, that their marketing groups are
probably gonna start gettingahead of it, I think we need to
do more just because anytimethere's a change in our
industry, we do see thatconsumers aren't always prepared
for it.
even though, like feedlots wouldbe a great example, they, I
don't think they fully alwaysunderstood, in the seventies and

(01:01:45):
eighties how beef was beingproduced.

matt_2_04-21-2025_08581 (01:01:47):
Mm-hmm.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (01:01:47):
when they found out, they were a
little shocked.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (01:01:50):
Yeah.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (01:01:51):
and we weren't because, you know,
the industry had been doing itfor so long.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (01:01:54):
Right.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (01:01:54):
so we, we do probably need to get
out ahead of it more.
Uh, but that comes from not justthe companies, those of us in
research, you know, academics,that are supposed to be neutral.
need to do a better job ofgetting out ahead of it as well.
And I would even say internallywithin the industry,

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (01:02:10):
Yeah.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (01:02:10):
to, discussing these things more.
'cause I, I know Bovaer, whichis one of the products, it's
being trialed here in the stateof Kansas.
and not all of our say like Kstate extensions agents know
what it is.
I think that's probablysomething that we need to just
start sharing a across theindustry is just, Hey, be on the
lookout if you get a call aboutthis.
This is what it is.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (01:02:31):
Yeah, and that's a, again, a challenge
that our production modelpresents in that we've got feed
yard producers who are veryknowledgeable about, all of the
technologies that they're using,but maybe not so much on the
genetic changes and things thatare happening at the seed stock
and cow calf level.
Conversely, we've got cow calfproducers who, have absolutely

(01:02:55):
no idea, or at least very littleactive knowledge and
understanding about some of thetechnologies that are, have been
already implemented and aregoing to continue to be
implemented at the feed yardlevel.
And, and that's, that's where Ithink, you know, as Dan Thompson
and others have talked about,the, the one beef concept, I
think there's value in that.
And knowing enough about allthese different parts of our

(01:03:17):
production system'cause to aconsumer, we're not a feed yard
manager or a cow calf produceror a stocker operator.
We're a cattleman.
We are part of raising thatanimal, getting it converted
into beef and knowing everythingthat happens to it.
And they wanna know, they wannaknow everything that happened to

(01:03:38):
it.
So they expect that we do thesame.
And I think that's one of thethings, one of the reasons that
we created this podcast was sowe could have discussions like
this and, and hopefully all be alittle bit more educated about
that.
Yeah.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (01:03:51):
And that actually reminds me of a,
another change.
I, I, I kind of anticipate, butI try not to talk about it.
You

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (01:03:57):
Okay.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (01:03:58):
I'm west of the Mississippi again,
traceability.
a as corporations become morefinancially invested in, in
different programs, I thinktraceability is gonna be
required to accomplish some ofthose.
so we, we just saw some, youknow, uh, feedback to the RFID

(01:04:18):
changes that occurred.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (01:04:20):
Right.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (01:04:21):
I, I think we'll continue to see more
of that as, as consumers andcorporations alike, uh, are in
where animals move and are kindof required to trace them back.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (01:04:33):
So right now the pushback on RFID
on the National IdentificationSystem and it's, it's been.
The same pushback that we've hadfor two or three decades that
I've been actively involved inthe beef industry.
That is simply what I would calland what a lot of folks term a
bookend approach where we put anID in the calf's ear or before

(01:04:55):
it enters commerce.
And if there's ever a traceback, um, they can hopefully
figure that out.
That's strictly for disease.
surveillance, what you'retalking about is a much more
robust traceability that thatcalf was born during this time
period on this ranch, he wassold through this barn, went to

(01:05:17):
this stocker operator, went tothis feed yard, et cetera, et
cetera, processed at thispacker.
How does that, former, or theone that you're talking about, I
think the traceability modelfull on traceability model, how
does that get implemented inyour mind?
Because I think a lot of folkshave a bit of confusion between
the two, between the diseasetracking and surveillance that's

(01:05:39):
only used if we have a foot andmouth or that type of outbreak,
compared to the traceabilitythat is used to help market that
beef for a little more money.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (01:05:49):
Yeah, so we, we've seen some of these
programs pop up.
With, with fairly large outfits.
Would be, uh, uh, don't thinkyou can find it online now, but
it was called Brazen Beef.
It was a Tyson branded program.
It was effectively atraceability program for,
environmental claims.

(01:06:10):
And that took a lot of, legworkfrom the, the cattle producer,
uh, who finished that animal to,to get that program set up and
get rancher trust.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (01:06:21):
Right.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (01:06:22):
I, I think most likely the, the
disease program is gonna be the,the easiest to implement.
Um, easiest in, uh, it might getimplemented, uh, a little
without too much pushback.
I, I think what thesecorporations are asking for is
going to take a long time, butthey are asking for it, large

(01:06:45):
global lenders for, for ag or

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (01:06:48):
Right,

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (01:06:48):
at.
of blockchain technology totrack animals across the supply
chain.
How in the heck they get thatdone, uh, is kind of beyond me
outside of saying they're gonnahave to pay for it.
it's gonna have to befinancially, a financial reward
for the consumer to part or forthe producer to participate in

(01:07:09):
that.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (01:07:10):
So when Rabo has done that in
Europe, and I think that's theone you're probably talking
about.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (01:07:15):
Yeah, I was, I, I was trying not to,

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (01:07:17):
Ah, you're fine.
I, yeah, we, we can get awaywith it here.
It, it's, it's obviously gonnalook different there than it
would here.
do you see that as being aimmediate, I shouldn't say
immediate, but a very rapidchange over to this new system?
Or do you see a IE the stickapproach or is it a carrot

(01:07:39):
approach where there's a few ofthese traceability systems that
if they're in this and you cantell me where all that calf came
or traveled through his lifebefore he hit the packing plant?
you're gonna have market plus Xdollars.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (01:07:54):
A couple years ago, I probably
would've said that, my opinionwas gonna be that we were gonna
have the stick approach.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (01:08:00):
Okay.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (01:08:01):
but if your listeners don't know,
what, what I think about when Isay a stick approach to
traceability or, or really anyprogram

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (01:08:08):
Sure.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (01:08:08):
is a pay to play type of marketplace
where, you know, A-A-J-B-S saysyou have to do this, or we're
not buying your final product.
Um, now I think it'll be more ofa carrot approach, for a couple
of different reasons, kind ofsome of it policy related, but,
I think it'll be a carrotapproach and.

(01:08:28):
ramp up of these programs.
So kind of starting smaller, andramping them up across the
supply chain, just because Ithink that's gonna be the most
successful way to implementthem.
They'll, they'll have to foster,producer, trust, and kind of
show the, the viability of theprogram in order to get
widespread adoption of it.

(01:08:49):
so I, I think it'll be more of acarrot.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (01:08:52):
You have a timeline, just if you
were looking at your crystalball.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (01:08:56):
I do not.
This, this world has changed somuch.
I've been in the sustainabilityspace for, 10 years, and I would
say the last three years it'schanged more than it did in the
first seven.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (01:09:08):
Hmm.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (01:09:08):
E even the carbon markets where
they are now, they're just somuch different than 2021.
in terms of truthfulness of it,accuracy of them,

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (01:09:18):
Yeah.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (01:09:19):
it, it's changing very, very
rapidly.
So, uh, timeline, I don't know.
I know there will be a plenty ofpushback.
if this does come out.
people will have opinions on it,but, I, I think it will at some
point.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (01:09:32):
Well, the wonderful thing about if it
is a carrot ed approach and ifthere are dollars out there and
potential trust that can bebuilt, like you said, and one
guy or gal does it one year andgets paid for it and figures
out, then his or her neighborfigures out.
And quite often it's the veryneighbor that was saying, I, by

(01:09:52):
gosh, we'll never identify allmy cattle.
That'll be the first ones to goand make that money.
And so, um,, yeah, it'll, it'llbe interesting.
It'll be interesting.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (01:10:02):
You know, I, I bring up that point
you just made quite often whenpeople ask, what, what do you do
in extension?
Say, well, we, you know, we, weconvince ourselves that we
educate the rancher, but reallythey just learn from across the
fence line.
and they occasionally humor usby showing up to meetings.
but yeah, that, that fence line,knowledge transfer is pretty

(01:10:23):
important for the ranchingindustry.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (01:10:25):
Yep.
No doubt.
I've, I've been on, I've been onboth sides of that fence,
literally and figuratively,that's a great place, I think,
to finish up and, and, um, weappreciate the, the info and the
conversation and all that you'redoing there at K State and,
we'll look forward to stayingtuned and seeing, how these
things shake out because likeyou said, it's, it's happening

(01:10:47):
fast, it's changing fast.
This is not our grandfather's orgrandmother's beef industry.
there are very valuable parts ofit, but, uh, yeah, there'll,
there'll be quite a few changesI'd say going forth as well.

logan_2_04-21-2025_085814 (01:11:00):
Yep.
Well, thanks for having me.

matt_2_04-21-2025_085815 (01:11:01):
You bet.
You bet.
Have a great day and Iappreciate it a bunch, Logan.
Thanks for tuning in toPractically Ranching, brought to
you by Dalebanks Angus.
If you liked the show, share itwith somebody else, give us a
five star review or a comment sowe can keep cranking these out.
We're essentially out of ourprivate treaty bull offering,
but we still have a super groupof April calving registered cows

(01:11:23):
that are available now.
They're a super nice set ofcows, most of them less than
four years old, we'll calve themout in the next couple of weeks
and they'll be ready fordelivery after May 1st, if you'd
like information with pedigrees,registration numbers, EPDs, and
prices email me atmattPerry@dalebanks.com.

(01:11:43):
God bless you all.
I look forward to visiting againsoon.

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#74 - Logan Thompson, The Emotional Aspect of Food

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#74 - Logan Thompson, The Emotional Aspect of Food