March 19, 2025 • 29 mins
Jasen Stine joins us with his knowledge as an experienced tax and accounting professional of over 25 years. We discuss the shift towards advisory services in accounting firms, the impact of private equity and venture capital, and the challenges of succession planning.
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KC Brothers (00:06):
Welcome to another episode of the Canopy Practice
Success Podcast.
I am Casey Brothers, your host,and I'm here today with Jason
Stein.
Hi, Jason.
Hi, Casey.
How are you today?
Jason Stine (00:18):
I'm great.
It's a beautiful day inWashington State today.
KC Brothers (00:22):
I do love the Pacific Northwest.
Jason Stine (00:23):
Mm hmm.
KC Brothers (00:25):
Um, Jason, give us a little introduction of
yourself.
Jason Stine (00:28):
Sure, yeah.
So, Jason Stein, I've been inthe tax and accounting
profession for over 25 years.
Largely working with a bigcompany.
You probably have all heard ofnamed into it.
I was their education externalfacing, you know, industry
education leader for probablyabout the last 10 years.
I was there left into it about ayear ago and became an
(00:50):
independent consultant.
So now I work with firms who areinterested in, uh, like, you
know, I consult them on a numberof different things, but largely
people that are interested inmoving their firms to advisory
services, which is pretty much afancy word for getting your
clients on subscription.
Um, I also had my own firm forabout 12 years.
I ran it with a, I was astrategic partner.
(01:12):
I had a operating partner that,that largely ran it.
Um, we sold that a couple ofyears ago for roughly two X
revenues.
And that was because we had.
Moved our firm to advisory andsubscription services.
Um, and people tell me that'sreally good because most firms
can't sell at all, much less,uh, for, for two X revenues.
Um, usually it's about one Xrevenues if there's no
(01:33):
subscriptions.
KC Brothers (01:35):
Yeah, that's me in a nutshell.
That is a really goodmultiplier, but can't sell?
I feel like PEs like VCs areGobbling up.
They're coming
Jason Stine (01:48):
in.
Yeah But they're I think they'refinding that it's not as good of
an investment as they thoughtbecause they can't get their
money back fast
KC Brothers (01:56):
Something dry up and just ignore it entirely as
opposed to still purchasing itand rebooting it.
Jason Stine (02:03):
I mean, venture capital definitely come in.
Um, I talked to a couple ofpeople who are, who are more, I
don't deal a lot more of the bigfirms is where you see that.
Yeah.
Okay.
Um, and I've talked to a couplepeople that do, uh, consulting
work for those firms.
I don't consult really big firmslike that, so I don't, I only
know so much about vc, but fromwhat I've heard.
You know, they definitely wereand they're trying to move
(02:26):
because that's there's a wholeproblem around like the
partnership model and thesefirms and how it's hindering
their ability to make, you know,the changes that are needed to
be competitive in today'smarket.
Um, but, but I've heard that theVCs are.
Like that may fizzle out.
It may not, but it may fizzleout because they're not, they're
(02:47):
not getting their money backfast enough because these firms
are, are not moving in thedirection they need to.
KC Brothers (02:53):
Okay.
So back up just a little bit.
Traditionally, uh, anaccountant's career path
involves storm, some sort ofexit.
Um, I guess for thinking likethe, the partner level, right?
Not everybody makes partner, Iguess, but those who get to that
point, get to an exit.
(03:13):
It hasn't always been privateequity and venture capital,
right?
No, no, that's,
Jason Stine (03:19):
that's really new.
KC Brothers (03:20):
Okay, and here you're saying that they're even
still starting to waiver maybeon their commitment to this idea
of an investment.
So what, what is this, that andmaybe other things meaning for?
Yeah,
Jason Stine (03:39):
I mean, that's, that's a good question and it's,
um, there's a lot to thatbecause you know, one, you're
not going to see VC most of themajority of, of firms, uh, that
you see out there, you know,are, you know, medium, medium
sized firms, you know, they're,they're maybe, you know, half a
dozen to a dozen employees,they've got a few hundred
(03:59):
clients and they're doing great,
Uh,
and then you can, in the bigger firms, you know,
you've got, you've got the, thebigger issues, you know,
everybody's having a talentproblem.
So, because people don't want tocome into the industry and, and
by the way, not everybody youmentioned, not everybody makes
partner, not most people don'twant to get to partner at these,
at this point, because what thatlooks like is long, long hours
(04:22):
for many years, a lot ofresponsibility.
And what
KC Brothers (04:26):
that looks like or what it's looked like,
Jason Stine (04:30):
well, what it's looked like, but, but also
without, when you've got thisbusiness model where we're
focused on compliance work,we're still valid or we're still
billing by the hour and stilltracking timesheets, that's
prohibitive.
To moving to an advisory type ofmodel because you're, it's, it's
(04:52):
a direct conflict.
You don't, if you save time bystreamlining and using
technology to do that, thenyou're not making more money.
Right.
So that's, it's direct conflict.
Um, and so these firms could bemaking a lot more money, but
then you've got, you know, theolder generation that's got the
processes that they've had inthere.
(05:13):
They're happy with it and thebusiness is thriving and and by
the way, they're on the brink ofretirement.
So it's not going to changeeverything just right before I
retire, especially in the largefirms where when they leave,
they're just leaving the firmand it's up to the firm to
figure things out from there.
With these medium and smallerfirms, you got to really think
(05:34):
about succession planningbecause, you know, what are you
going to do?
Are you going to just let yourfirm, you know, let your firm
die on the vine?
You're going to work till, youknow, it's the end.
Are you going to leave it toyour kids?
Are you going to sell it?
You know, and so those arethings that those firms are
probably thinking about andwhat, and I don't know, you
know, if they know what theyneed to do.
KC Brothers (05:57):
Yeah, 100%.
I mean, how many accountantsreally still need to consider
themselves entrepreneurs,depending on, um, you know,
their level of ownership andwhat the firm is and their
contribution to the firm, Iguess, but, um, someone who's a
leader, CEO, founder, partner,um, I have all of the typical
(06:22):
issues that people going intogeneral entrepreneurship do.
And that's this lack of, um,maybe understanding of how to
optimize the firm as a business.
Um, and just to what you weresaying.
Um, okay.
So we've got the talent chasmthat I like to call this huge
(06:44):
gap between the need and thesupply.
Um, but then you've got all ofthese.
I saw recently that 75%.
of, oh my goodness, um, of CTAsin general.
Jason Stine (07:03):
Yeah, our baby boomer generation.
Our baby boomers.
Yeah, that's scary.
KC Brothers (07:07):
Yeah, and, and not just baby boomers, but I, maybe
around on the higher end, likeI'm seeing people as partner at
an age that I'm like, Don't youwant to be retired?
I don't want to be retired.
I want to go sit on a beach andread a book.
Um, and I, there's, you know,we're all very different in
(07:27):
terms of like our, our passionand love of work.
And I do find a lot ofaccountants just love,
absolutely love what they do.
So I can get why that's also areason why we're seeing an older
retirement age.
Um, In this generation, but, um,then you touch on the point of
changing and, um, leaving thefirm.
(07:49):
What are some of the thingsActually, pause.
I had a question I wanted to askbecause we were talking about
advisory and getting over that.
Can anyone jump into advisory?
Jason Stine (08:00):
Yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
It's a bit of a change for, Icall it, you know, turning chess
players into cheerleaders.
When you're, you know, and ifyou have, you're going to
probably have listeners thatthey've been running their firm
the same way for a lot of yearsand it's, it's been very focused
on compliance work, pumping outtax returns, doing the
(08:21):
bookkeeping, doing the reports,uh, and it's not a huge stretch
once you're, once you're thereand you're, you're doing
advisory services and you've gotyour clients on maintenance
plan, subscription services,you're doing tax strategies.
Uh, and helping them, you know,navigate, uh, those things and
saving them quite a bit ofmoney, you know, you could, you
could, uh, deploy tax plans andsave clients, you know, 20, 30,
(08:45):
000 or more a year, um, youknow, for the, for the business
clients, of course, mostly, um,when you look back, it's, it's
like, oh, wow, I could have beendoing this the whole time, but,
but making the ship to getthere, or.
Is challenging mostly becausepeople are, um, just afraid of,
(09:05):
of the unknown.
Yes.
And that's, that's normal.
That's, you know.
Yeah.
And there's lots of programs outthere that can help people, you
know, really, really push themthrough.
And I do that with people too,you know, if they just need
somebody to just.
Be there to as a coach and aguide and move them along, you
know, um, that's a lot of whatpeople need
KC Brothers (09:26):
Yeah, and the I guess the reason I asked it can
anyone become Make thistransition to advisors because
of that sentiment that you justended on is I feel like um Just
with anybody really any adults.
There's always impostersyndrome, right?
Am I capable enough?
(09:47):
Do I have enough knowledge?
um There are certain thingsthat, that I've seen as I've
talked to people, as I've gottento know accounting firms that I
do feel like will set you upbetter for that sort of a
transition.
But even without those things, Ithink anybody could As long as
you made the decision and youcommitted, you could get into
(10:10):
advisory tomorrow.
Jason Stine (10:11):
Yeah, for the most part.
It's, it's just, I, I think it,it takes, it takes people a
couple of years if you, ifyou've got an established Yeah.
KC Brothers (10:19):
Unit and Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
You
Jason Stine (10:21):
know, uh, getting over that first hump of getting
your first client onsubscription services.
A lot of people, a lot of firmsthat, that are committed to
doing this, you know, moving,moving to this, this space.
And by the way, that doesn'tmean the compliance work goes
away, right.
But you streamline that stuffand get it so.
just as efficient as possible.
And you use technology largelyto do that.
(10:42):
Um, and then, you know, you getyour first subscription client
under your belt and then, um,and then you, you kind of keep
working.
It takes a year or two to getthere.
Now, brand new firms have anadvantage because they don't
have a legacy business that theyhave to move to this.
They just, they could just startoff this way and then, oh, yeah,
(11:03):
by the way, we'll do the taxesand the, and the bookkeeping or
whatever else, but it's allwrapped up as part of one big
package.
KC Brothers (11:09):
Yeah, you do make an interesting point there.
Brand new firm can start withthe pricing model, the packaged
approach, right?
All of the logistics andoperations are going to be
easier.
But what I think might be easierfor an established firm, just so
that anybody listening can seelike, okay, there is a path for
me no matter what type of firm Iam.
(11:31):
Um, When you've been inbusiness, you know who you like
to work with and who you don'tlike to work with, whether or
not you have the gumption tosay, client, I'm just not a good
fit for you, or you're not agood fit for me, um, and that
can take some courage, right?
And courage to have theconversation, but also courage
in yourself and in your firm tobe like.
(11:54):
I can make it without them.
Um, I think those firms too arewell positioned just because
they can, if they take the timeto slow down, reflect, they can
identify who it is that they'dlike to work with.
And then hopefully thattransition into implementing all
of those operations that comewith a subscription based
(12:15):
accounting firm, you're, you'redealing with people that you
like to work with and thereforehopefully like to work with you
as well and have a relationshipthere.
Like, And you can loop them in,I guess, in a way that you might
not be able to loop in all ofthose clients if you keep all of
them during that transition.
Jason Stine (12:35):
Casey, you're absolutely hitting the nail on
the head.
So, and that's actually where Itell people to start, is ideal
client.
Yeah.
Um, and, and those clients, I, I find that a lot of
firms these days, uh, firmowners, they're, they're not so
much, they're, they're not asscared to fire clients.
Uh, these days as maybe 5, 10years ago,
(12:58):
yeah,
it's getting better because they just have too much
work and not enough time.
And so, and they're makingperfectly, perfectly good money.
Um, but you know, the, the, theloss of revenue can be.
scary for, for some firms still,but, but identifying your ideal
client and, and figuring out theindustries that you like to work
(13:20):
in the best too.
You want to figure out yourniches.
Generalist, generalist firmsare, have a harder time moving
to advisory than specialistfirms and, and not one industry,
like pick, pick a few.
There's oftentimes industriesthat are kind of, you know,
retail and restaurants areoften, you know, the similar
types of industries that.
(13:41):
You know, you can specialize in.
I know firms that like tospecialize in real estate and
law firms and doctor's officesand you know, lots of lots of
choices out there and don't justpick one because then you make
yourself vulnerable.
But, but definitely get in yourhead.
You know, this is the perfectlike, and you probably have a
few of them.
They are top 20 percent of yourclients already.
(14:01):
And they're happy to pay.
They don't complain.
They're out there and they'reprobably like wanting more from
the, from the firm in terms ofadvice, but they don't, they
don't realize it.
They don't know to ask for it.
Or they don't know that that's,that's a possibility.
And so as a, as an accountingpractice, you've got to position
yourself to those people andsay, Hey, we're going to move
(14:23):
you into this new model becauseyou are the right fit for this.
And here's how this is going towork going forward.
And you tell them what they'regoing to get from you in terms
of value.
And then when you spell all thatout and you say, we're still
going to do your taxes, we'restill going to do all the
services we're doing, but we'regoing to meet once a month and
(14:44):
we're going to start settinggoals and looking at your budget
and, you know, looking at moreof your business.
And I'm going to become more ofa coach for you, uh, than just a
passive, you know, paper pusher.
And, you know, obviously notthose words exactly, but they're
gonna, they're gonna light upthose clients that are those
(15:04):
ideal clients are gonna lightup.
They're gonna want thoseservices.
Okay, well, so what does thislook like now in terms of
payment?
Well, instead of having one bigbill at the end of the year,
we're gonna put you on a monthlysubscription.
And here's three packages that Iput together.
One's a bare minimum, one's a,you know, massive amount of, you
know, whatever, like, if you hada perfect world in mind, you're,
(15:26):
you know, these are all the, andthen down the middle is probably
the more reasonable, like, allright, we're going to do these
things and meet once a month andthat, and then, you know, most
of them pick that middlepackage, but you'd actually be
surprised at how many of thempicked a larger package.
Uh, so, you know, be carefulwith that too.
No,
KC Brothers (15:43):
I, um, if you don't mind, I might offer some.
So, at a previous job, I didsome really intensive research
with, uh, a research expert, um,to help the company I was
working for revamp their pricingand packaging.
And there are some things Ilearned from that, that I think
(16:04):
would be really helpful in thisprocess as people start to think
about packages and.
And, you know, what, what wouldbe valuable?
How do I structure these?
Um, one of the things I did withresearch is I took, and I don't
think you need to do this as anaccounting firm, but I think you
can innately discern thisconcept that I'm about to
(16:26):
describe as you look at thethings that you offer.
Um, but we took the list of, um,main capabilities within our
product.
And presented it to these surveyrespondents, um, and bite sized
pieces and like 15 at a time andit was random and I'd say, Hey,
(16:46):
order these, um, from mostimpactful, the least impactful.
And then they do that a fewtimes.
And, and over the course of.
Answering that question, all ofthe capabilities will have
popped up a few times, right?
The point being that it thenenabled me to know what were the
most impactful, most desiredfeatures.
(17:07):
I was then able to then say,Hey, okay, these relate this
way.
I'm going to package it thisway.
And what you do is you're ableto.
strategically put things thatyou're offering in that next
package to pull people up and topull them up even more to that
last package, right?
As opposed to just kind of, um,trying to throw spaghetti at the
(17:31):
wall and say, I think this iswhat people would like.
Um, you can kind of start withthat approach of like examining
your services.
Now you've.
All listeners, I'm assuming,have been doing this for some
time and you know, um, whenyou're in a room with a client
and they have that light bulbabove their head, or you, you
(17:52):
know, their financials and youknow where you typically save
people money.
And so just as you're makingthose packages, think of, um,
The strategies you can employ todraw them where you want them to
be I guess is what i'm trying toget at
Jason Stine (18:09):
Yeah, I think also You know for firms that are
doing tax returns.
That's a relatively easy placeto start because if if if you go
The first thing that you do inthe tax space is you go get the
technical knowledge So you learnabout the tax strategy and
(18:31):
there's tons of places where youcan go get that information for
free Um, you don't have to sitthere and read through IRS pubs,
um, and go get some, someeducation on the tax strategies
like, you know, Augusta rule andhiring your kids and, and, um,
you know, there's, there's a fewthat there's like 100 or so out
there and then you get statespecific strategies to that.
(18:53):
That's a whole nother world, buteven just at the federal level,
finding out those, those.
Strategies and who, where theright fits are for it.
And then you've already doingthe tax return.
So you just go in and look andsee who qualifies for these
deductions.
And then you put together a planand then you say, Hey, look,
I've identified three majorstrategies.
(19:13):
It's going to save you about 20,000 a year going forward.
Right?
Here's my fee.
KC Brothers (19:20):
Yeah.
Jason Stine (19:21):
For helping you implement these strategies.
And I'm telling you people andyour, your fee's going to be
like, you know, 10, 10 percentof that, you know, something
like that.
So you, you identify 20, 000with strategy, you should be,
you should be asking for five to10, 000 in, in helping implement
that strategy.
Because like I said, and peopleforget this a lot, when you
(19:43):
implement that strategy, nowit's saving you a year, every
year, every year.
So it's not just 20 grand in oneyear.
A hundred grand over the, youknow, however much that, that,
that goes on.
Um,
and that's a good way to dipyour toe in the
space.
Yeah.
KC Brothers (20:00):
Okay.
Yeah.
The
Jason Stine (20:00):
math is not obvious.
Spitballing numbers.
I'll tell my head.
KC Brothers (20:05):
No, I gotcha.
I gotcha.
But I love, I just, I said thatbecause you point out that
again, this it's a little bit ofa long game.
Not necessarily, but like, butalso like reminding your clients
about that long term impact.
Yeah.
Um, and the thing is like, accountants do, to your
point, okay, yeah, maybe brushup on some of these strategies,
(20:26):
but you also, especially ifyou're already a firm that is a
niche firm dealing with acertain type of industry or even
a certain type of client whoknows what it is, right?
You have data.
On however many clients you havein that industry.
So you now know that industry,or you now know, um, what it's,
(20:49):
uh, people who are landlords ofthree to ten properties, right?
And you can see trends, or youcan, Um, find ways to, you know,
use the data in a way that isappropriate to help you see
those trends to then say, Hey,you benchmark lower than average
(21:11):
for people of this type.
Yep.
Let's get you up, you know, likethat's a huge opportunity.
Jason Stine (21:18):
And a lot of the times the software will, has
tools to help you identify thatstuff.
You know, like if you're usingQuickBooks, a lot of, a lot of
people are, and I'm not pluggingQuickBooks, obviously, but, um,
I've lived in that world for along time.
And, you know, there were therewere features in there that
would tell you, you know, likethis client spending more in
this space than the average orless on that, you know, so, you
(21:40):
know, that's part of the rolethat technology can play is
enabling and surfacing thosedata points.
especially if you're doing thebooks, you know, that's, you've
got all their data, you knowexactly where they are and
you've got enough experience onyour own.
You don't even really need thosetools.
You can look at the numbers andyou got a pretty good idea.
(22:01):
Yeah.
Um, I love that you brought back the, brought the
landlord, uh, thing into like,as in that you did it in the
context of, of real estate.
But I also was thinking aboutthat back when we were talking
about.
Uh, ideal client because I'm,you know, I have rental
properties, having, you know,the, the pricing and everything
(22:22):
that you've set up, um, it'svery similar to, to being a
landlord.
Like when you're rentingproperties, if you've got your
rent too low, you're going toattract clients that are budget
clients, you know, and they'renot going to always take care of
your property.
The best, they're not going tobe the best tenants.
And it's just the same thing inthis industry, right?
You, if your, your rent ispriced higher, you're going to
(22:44):
attract higher income, higherquality, you know, tenants,
obviously not so high thatyou're out of range of the
market, but, um, that's a,that's a big deal.
And a lot of people make thatmistake when they become
landlords.
Is they think they're chargingtoo much ram, they try to go
cheap and that's not alwaysgoing to get you the best.
KC Brothers (23:02):
Yeah, pricing is a signal, that's for sure.
Um, okay, so back to exiting andstuff like that.
Because we went into advisory.
Um, in terms of like, you know,us being an expert, but there
was a, we touched a little biton just this trend of, of
people, um, a lot of CPAs beingon the brink of retirement.
(23:27):
Um, and I don't know that, youknow, if, if their partner, if
they've got their own firm thatthey're going to jump on the
conversation we just had, right.
About jumping into advisory.
Um, but there are a lot of them.
Um, can you talk a little bitabout.
Maybe what they should beconsidering or maybe even depend
(23:50):
where you want to take thisconversation given the
conversation we've already hadWhat people working with them?
Jason Stine (23:57):
That's exactly where my mind was going.
KC Brothers (24:00):
Okay
Jason Stine (24:01):
So, because I think, I think the, the folks
that are on, you know, on thebrink of retirement, they're
probably not even listening tothis podcast.
Right.
They're, they're doing theirthing and that's fine.
That's fine.
You know, but there's nothing Icould say to them, you know,
that I, that, that they wouldfind helpful, you know,
KC Brothers (24:19):
or that would change their mind overnight that
they haven't heard before.
Jason Stine (24:23):
Exactly.
They're not struggling.
They're, they're just doingtheir thing and then they're,
they're going to, you know,retire and they're, they,
they're going to decide how, howthey want to leave things, but
the, everybody else who's leftbehind though, and, and I find
this a lot with, um, people whohave like the, their kids are
(24:44):
going to take over the firm andthey're, you know, the kids are
grown adults and they're, youknow, they know what's up and
they know that they want to dothese things.
Right.
Um, but the, the owner, youknow, the, the, the, usually
it's a dad, uh, just isn'tinterested in, in changing
processes and implementing newtechnology and really rethinking
those things in big ways.
(25:05):
Um, 1, because of everythingwe've talked about, but also
because, you know, I'm a littleolder and I'm a little more set
in my ways.
I can't imagine what I'll belike when I'm, you know, 60, 70,
I'd be a lot more set in myways.
And it's just a, you know, it'sjust a human factor.
Um, and so they, the kids getfrustrated, uh, because they're,
they're trying to take over.
And so my advice always to themis just be patient.
(25:28):
It'll, it'll get there.
Um, and start lining up, keep,keep educating yourself on, you
know, getting the righttechnology in place.
Still try to have thoseconversations with, you know,
dad or the owner.
It's not always, you know.
Uh, it's not always just thatsituation.
Um, sometimes, you know, firmswill have people that they're
(25:48):
cultivating to ultimately takeover the firm.
Um, but most of them keep
KC Brothers (25:52):
on educating yourself.
Make sure to stay in the know.
Definitely.
Yeah.
And don't, yeah, don't give
Jason Stine (25:58):
up.
And, and have your, you know,start lining up your ducks so
that when, when you get thegreen light to go ahead and take
over, you can start implementingthose changes as quickly as
possible.
And it starts with thetechnology and the streamlining
workflows and processes.
If you've got file cabinetsaround the office with papers
piled on top of them, you'rebehind the eight ball.
(26:21):
Uh, so you, cause you're nevergoing to get to the next step if
you can't, if you're so buriedin manual processes.
Um, and this is also reallyimportant for firms that are
going to sell because nobody isgoing to buy a firm where they
have to physically go to yourlocation and go through manual
files, you know, like paperfile.
That's just, that is notattractive to anyone who's
(26:45):
interested in purchasing a firm.
They're purchasing, purchasingyour client list and they're
purchasing, not your workflows,but the, the clients that are,
are, are wanting.
Affirm that sits in today'stechnology because, you know,
people who are coming intoadulthood now don't know life
(27:07):
without a smartphone.
They don't even know what thatlife is.
KC Brothers (27:11):
Well, yeah.
So Amazon changed the game in somany ways.
Um, but people don't think ofhow Amazon changed the game in
regards to maybe how they, um,the, the market that they're
playing in.
And I say that because whatAmazon or apps or all sorts of
(27:32):
things have done is changed aconsumer's expectations.
Right.
And though DoorDash is not an accounting firm's
competitor, the experience Theexperience that their customer
gets from Amazon two daydelivery, from DoorDash, from
(27:58):
any myriad of things, right, ofthis really, um, simple
interface and interaction, um,the fast turnaround, the Clear
communication of what's neededfrom them, you know, all of that
They're gonna start applying toand expecting from the firm And
(28:21):
whether you're delivering it ornot, you may not even know that
they're making thesecomparisons.
Right?
Yes, they are.
And
Jason Stine (28:28):
it's not just the clients.
It's the employees too.
It's probably the employeesespecially.
They don't want to work in anantiquated environment They want
to be leveraging the latesttechnology because they know
it's better.
That's why it exists.
KC Brothers (28:42):
Yes, a hundred percent.
Um, well, thanks again, Jason.
It was a pleasure talking toyou.
Jason Stine (28:47):
Oh, it's my, my, uh, honor to be here.
Thank you for inviting me on theshow.
KC Brothers (28:51):
Anytime.
Welcome to another episode of the Canopy Practice
Success Podcast.
I am Casey Brothers, your host,and I'm here today with Jason
Stein.
Hi, Jason.
Hi, Casey.
How are you today?
Jason Stine (00:18):
I'm great.
It's a beautiful day inWashington State today.
KC Brothers (00:22):
I do love the Pacific Northwest.
Jason Stine (00:23):
Mm hmm.
KC Brothers (00:25):
Um, Jason, give us a little introduction of
yourself.
Jason Stine (00:28):
Sure, yeah.
So, Jason Stein, I've been inthe tax and accounting
profession for over 25 years.
Largely working with a bigcompany.
You probably have all heard ofnamed into it.
I was their education externalfacing, you know, industry
education leader for probablyabout the last 10 years.
I was there left into it about ayear ago and became an
(00:50):
independent consultant.
So now I work with firms who areinterested in, uh, like, you
know, I consult them on a numberof different things, but largely
people that are interested inmoving their firms to advisory
services, which is pretty much afancy word for getting your
clients on subscription.
Um, I also had my own firm forabout 12 years.
I ran it with a, I was astrategic partner.
(01:12):
I had a operating partner that,that largely ran it.
Um, we sold that a couple ofyears ago for roughly two X
revenues.
And that was because we had.
Moved our firm to advisory andsubscription services.
Um, and people tell me that'sreally good because most firms
can't sell at all, much less,uh, for, for two X revenues.
Um, usually it's about one Xrevenues if there's no
(01:33):
subscriptions.
KC Brothers (01:35):
Yeah, that's me in a nutshell.
That is a really goodmultiplier, but can't sell?
I feel like PEs like VCs areGobbling up.
They're coming
Jason Stine (01:48):
in.
Yeah But they're I think they'refinding that it's not as good of
an investment as they thoughtbecause they can't get their
money back fast
KC Brothers (01:56):
Something dry up and just ignore it entirely as
opposed to still purchasing itand rebooting it.
Jason Stine (02:03):
I mean, venture capital definitely come in.
Um, I talked to a couple ofpeople who are, who are more, I
don't deal a lot more of the bigfirms is where you see that.
Yeah.
Okay.
Um, and I've talked to a couplepeople that do, uh, consulting
work for those firms.
I don't consult really big firmslike that, so I don't, I only
know so much about vc, but fromwhat I've heard.
You know, they definitely wereand they're trying to move
(02:26):
because that's there's a wholeproblem around like the
partnership model and thesefirms and how it's hindering
their ability to make, you know,the changes that are needed to
be competitive in today'smarket.
Um, but, but I've heard that theVCs are.
Like that may fizzle out.
It may not, but it may fizzleout because they're not, they're
(02:47):
not getting their money backfast enough because these firms
are, are not moving in thedirection they need to.
KC Brothers (02:53):
Okay.
So back up just a little bit.
Traditionally, uh, anaccountant's career path
involves storm, some sort ofexit.
Um, I guess for thinking likethe, the partner level, right?
Not everybody makes partner, Iguess, but those who get to that
point, get to an exit.
(03:13):
It hasn't always been privateequity and venture capital,
right?
No, no, that's,
Jason Stine (03:19):
that's really new.
KC Brothers (03:20):
Okay, and here you're saying that they're even
still starting to waiver maybeon their commitment to this idea
of an investment.
So what, what is this, that andmaybe other things meaning for?
Yeah,
Jason Stine (03:39):
I mean, that's, that's a good question and it's,
um, there's a lot to thatbecause you know, one, you're
not going to see VC most of themajority of, of firms, uh, that
you see out there, you know,are, you know, medium, medium
sized firms, you know, they're,they're maybe, you know, half a
dozen to a dozen employees,they've got a few hundred
(03:59):
clients and they're doing great,
Uh,
and then you can, in the bigger firms, you know,
you've got, you've got the, thebigger issues, you know,
everybody's having a talentproblem.
So, because people don't want tocome into the industry and, and
by the way, not everybody youmentioned, not everybody makes
partner, not most people don'twant to get to partner at these,
at this point, because what thatlooks like is long, long hours
(04:22):
for many years, a lot ofresponsibility.
And what
KC Brothers (04:26):
that looks like or what it's looked like,
Jason Stine (04:30):
well, what it's looked like, but, but also
without, when you've got thisbusiness model where we're
focused on compliance work,we're still valid or we're still
billing by the hour and stilltracking timesheets, that's
prohibitive.
To moving to an advisory type ofmodel because you're, it's, it's
(04:52):
a direct conflict.
You don't, if you save time bystreamlining and using
technology to do that, thenyou're not making more money.
Right.
So that's, it's direct conflict.
Um, and so these firms could bemaking a lot more money, but
then you've got, you know, theolder generation that's got the
processes that they've had inthere.
(05:13):
They're happy with it and thebusiness is thriving and and by
the way, they're on the brink ofretirement.
So it's not going to changeeverything just right before I
retire, especially in the largefirms where when they leave,
they're just leaving the firmand it's up to the firm to
figure things out from there.
With these medium and smallerfirms, you got to really think
(05:34):
about succession planningbecause, you know, what are you
going to do?
Are you going to just let yourfirm, you know, let your firm
die on the vine?
You're going to work till, youknow, it's the end.
Are you going to leave it toyour kids?
Are you going to sell it?
You know, and so those arethings that those firms are
probably thinking about andwhat, and I don't know, you
know, if they know what theyneed to do.
KC Brothers (05:57):
Yeah, 100%.
I mean, how many accountantsreally still need to consider
themselves entrepreneurs,depending on, um, you know,
their level of ownership andwhat the firm is and their
contribution to the firm, Iguess, but, um, someone who's a
leader, CEO, founder, partner,um, I have all of the typical
(06:22):
issues that people going intogeneral entrepreneurship do.
And that's this lack of, um,maybe understanding of how to
optimize the firm as a business.
Um, and just to what you weresaying.
Um, okay.
So we've got the talent chasmthat I like to call this huge
(06:44):
gap between the need and thesupply.
Um, but then you've got all ofthese.
I saw recently that 75%.
of, oh my goodness, um, of CTAsin general.
Jason Stine (07:03):
Yeah, our baby boomer generation.
Our baby boomers.
Yeah, that's scary.
KC Brothers (07:07):
Yeah, and, and not just baby boomers, but I, maybe
around on the higher end, likeI'm seeing people as partner at
an age that I'm like, Don't youwant to be retired?
I don't want to be retired.
I want to go sit on a beach andread a book.
Um, and I, there's, you know,we're all very different in
(07:27):
terms of like our, our passionand love of work.
And I do find a lot ofaccountants just love,
absolutely love what they do.
So I can get why that's also areason why we're seeing an older
retirement age.
Um, In this generation, but, um,then you touch on the point of
changing and, um, leaving thefirm.
(07:49):
What are some of the thingsActually, pause.
I had a question I wanted to askbecause we were talking about
advisory and getting over that.
Can anyone jump into advisory?
Jason Stine (08:00):
Yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
It's a bit of a change for, Icall it, you know, turning chess
players into cheerleaders.
When you're, you know, and ifyou have, you're going to
probably have listeners thatthey've been running their firm
the same way for a lot of yearsand it's, it's been very focused
on compliance work, pumping outtax returns, doing the
(08:21):
bookkeeping, doing the reports,uh, and it's not a huge stretch
once you're, once you're thereand you're, you're doing
advisory services and you've gotyour clients on maintenance
plan, subscription services,you're doing tax strategies.
Uh, and helping them, you know,navigate, uh, those things and
saving them quite a bit ofmoney, you know, you could, you
could, uh, deploy tax plans andsave clients, you know, 20, 30,
(08:45):
000 or more a year, um, youknow, for the, for the business
clients, of course, mostly, um,when you look back, it's, it's
like, oh, wow, I could have beendoing this the whole time, but,
but making the ship to getthere, or.
Is challenging mostly becausepeople are, um, just afraid of,
(09:05):
of the unknown.
Yes.
And that's, that's normal.
That's, you know.
Yeah.
And there's lots of programs outthere that can help people, you
know, really, really push themthrough.
And I do that with people too,you know, if they just need
somebody to just.
Be there to as a coach and aguide and move them along, you
know, um, that's a lot of whatpeople need
KC Brothers (09:26):
Yeah, and the I guess the reason I asked it can
anyone become Make thistransition to advisors because
of that sentiment that you justended on is I feel like um Just
with anybody really any adults.
There's always impostersyndrome, right?
Am I capable enough?
(09:47):
Do I have enough knowledge?
um There are certain thingsthat, that I've seen as I've
talked to people, as I've gottento know accounting firms that I
do feel like will set you upbetter for that sort of a
transition.
But even without those things, Ithink anybody could As long as
you made the decision and youcommitted, you could get into
(10:10):
advisory tomorrow.
Jason Stine (10:11):
Yeah, for the most part.
It's, it's just, I, I think it,it takes, it takes people a
couple of years if you, ifyou've got an established Yeah.
KC Brothers (10:19):
Unit and Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
You
Jason Stine (10:21):
know, uh, getting over that first hump of getting
your first client onsubscription services.
A lot of people, a lot of firmsthat, that are committed to
doing this, you know, moving,moving to this, this space.
And by the way, that doesn'tmean the compliance work goes
away, right.
But you streamline that stuffand get it so.
just as efficient as possible.
And you use technology largelyto do that.
(10:42):
Um, and then, you know, you getyour first subscription client
under your belt and then, um,and then you, you kind of keep
working.
It takes a year or two to getthere.
Now, brand new firms have anadvantage because they don't
have a legacy business that theyhave to move to this.
They just, they could just startoff this way and then, oh, yeah,
(11:03):
by the way, we'll do the taxesand the, and the bookkeeping or
whatever else, but it's allwrapped up as part of one big
package.
KC Brothers (11:09):
Yeah, you do make an interesting point there.
Brand new firm can start withthe pricing model, the packaged
approach, right?
All of the logistics andoperations are going to be
easier.
But what I think might be easierfor an established firm, just so
that anybody listening can seelike, okay, there is a path for
me no matter what type of firm Iam.
(11:31):
Um, When you've been inbusiness, you know who you like
to work with and who you don'tlike to work with, whether or
not you have the gumption tosay, client, I'm just not a good
fit for you, or you're not agood fit for me, um, and that
can take some courage, right?
And courage to have theconversation, but also courage
in yourself and in your firm tobe like.
(11:54):
I can make it without them.
Um, I think those firms too arewell positioned just because
they can, if they take the timeto slow down, reflect, they can
identify who it is that they'dlike to work with.
And then hopefully thattransition into implementing all
of those operations that comewith a subscription based
(12:15):
accounting firm, you're, you'redealing with people that you
like to work with and thereforehopefully like to work with you
as well and have a relationshipthere.
Like, And you can loop them in,I guess, in a way that you might
not be able to loop in all ofthose clients if you keep all of
them during that transition.
Jason Stine (12:35):
Casey, you're absolutely hitting the nail on
the head.
So, and that's actually where Itell people to start, is ideal
client.
Yeah.
Um, and, and those clients, I, I find that a lot of
firms these days, uh, firmowners, they're, they're not so
much, they're, they're not asscared to fire clients.
Uh, these days as maybe 5, 10years ago,
(12:58):
yeah,
it's getting better because they just have too much
work and not enough time.
And so, and they're makingperfectly, perfectly good money.
Um, but you know, the, the, theloss of revenue can be.
scary for, for some firms still,but, but identifying your ideal
client and, and figuring out theindustries that you like to work
(13:20):
in the best too.
You want to figure out yourniches.
Generalist, generalist firmsare, have a harder time moving
to advisory than specialistfirms and, and not one industry,
like pick, pick a few.
There's oftentimes industriesthat are kind of, you know,
retail and restaurants areoften, you know, the similar
types of industries that.
(13:41):
You know, you can specialize in.
I know firms that like tospecialize in real estate and
law firms and doctor's officesand you know, lots of lots of
choices out there and don't justpick one because then you make
yourself vulnerable.
But, but definitely get in yourhead.
You know, this is the perfectlike, and you probably have a
few of them.
They are top 20 percent of yourclients already.
(14:01):
And they're happy to pay.
They don't complain.
They're out there and they'reprobably like wanting more from
the, from the firm in terms ofadvice, but they don't, they
don't realize it.
They don't know to ask for it.
Or they don't know that that's,that's a possibility.
And so as a, as an accountingpractice, you've got to position
yourself to those people andsay, Hey, we're going to move
(14:23):
you into this new model becauseyou are the right fit for this.
And here's how this is going towork going forward.
And you tell them what they'regoing to get from you in terms
of value.
And then when you spell all thatout and you say, we're still
going to do your taxes, we'restill going to do all the
services we're doing, but we'regoing to meet once a month and
(14:44):
we're going to start settinggoals and looking at your budget
and, you know, looking at moreof your business.
And I'm going to become more ofa coach for you, uh, than just a
passive, you know, paper pusher.
And, you know, obviously notthose words exactly, but they're
gonna, they're gonna light upthose clients that are those
(15:04):
ideal clients are gonna lightup.
They're gonna want thoseservices.
Okay, well, so what does thislook like now in terms of
payment?
Well, instead of having one bigbill at the end of the year,
we're gonna put you on a monthlysubscription.
And here's three packages that Iput together.
One's a bare minimum, one's a,you know, massive amount of, you
know, whatever, like, if you hada perfect world in mind, you're,
(15:26):
you know, these are all the, andthen down the middle is probably
the more reasonable, like, allright, we're going to do these
things and meet once a month andthat, and then, you know, most
of them pick that middlepackage, but you'd actually be
surprised at how many of thempicked a larger package.
Uh, so, you know, be carefulwith that too.
No,
KC Brothers (15:43):
I, um, if you don't mind, I might offer some.
So, at a previous job, I didsome really intensive research
with, uh, a research expert, um,to help the company I was
working for revamp their pricingand packaging.
And there are some things Ilearned from that, that I think
(16:04):
would be really helpful in thisprocess as people start to think
about packages and.
And, you know, what, what wouldbe valuable?
How do I structure these?
Um, one of the things I did withresearch is I took, and I don't
think you need to do this as anaccounting firm, but I think you
can innately discern thisconcept that I'm about to
(16:26):
describe as you look at thethings that you offer.
Um, but we took the list of, um,main capabilities within our
product.
And presented it to these surveyrespondents, um, and bite sized
pieces and like 15 at a time andit was random and I'd say, Hey,
(16:46):
order these, um, from mostimpactful, the least impactful.
And then they do that a fewtimes.
And, and over the course of.
Answering that question, all ofthe capabilities will have
popped up a few times, right?
The point being that it thenenabled me to know what were the
most impactful, most desiredfeatures.
(17:07):
I was then able to then say,Hey, okay, these relate this
way.
I'm going to package it thisway.
And what you do is you're ableto.
strategically put things thatyou're offering in that next
package to pull people up and topull them up even more to that
last package, right?
As opposed to just kind of, um,trying to throw spaghetti at the
(17:31):
wall and say, I think this iswhat people would like.
Um, you can kind of start withthat approach of like examining
your services.
Now you've.
All listeners, I'm assuming,have been doing this for some
time and you know, um, whenyou're in a room with a client
and they have that light bulbabove their head, or you, you
(17:52):
know, their financials and youknow where you typically save
people money.
And so just as you're makingthose packages, think of, um,
The strategies you can employ todraw them where you want them to
be I guess is what i'm trying toget at
Jason Stine (18:09):
Yeah, I think also You know for firms that are
doing tax returns.
That's a relatively easy placeto start because if if if you go
The first thing that you do inthe tax space is you go get the
technical knowledge So you learnabout the tax strategy and
(18:31):
there's tons of places where youcan go get that information for
free Um, you don't have to sitthere and read through IRS pubs,
um, and go get some, someeducation on the tax strategies
like, you know, Augusta rule andhiring your kids and, and, um,
you know, there's, there's a fewthat there's like 100 or so out
there and then you get statespecific strategies to that.
(18:53):
That's a whole nother world, buteven just at the federal level,
finding out those, those.
Strategies and who, where theright fits are for it.
And then you've already doingthe tax return.
So you just go in and look andsee who qualifies for these
deductions.
And then you put together a planand then you say, Hey, look,
I've identified three majorstrategies.
(19:13):
It's going to save you about 20,000 a year going forward.
Right?
Here's my fee.
KC Brothers (19:20):
Yeah.
Jason Stine (19:21):
For helping you implement these strategies.
And I'm telling you people andyour, your fee's going to be
like, you know, 10, 10 percentof that, you know, something
like that.
So you, you identify 20, 000with strategy, you should be,
you should be asking for five to10, 000 in, in helping implement
that strategy.
Because like I said, and peopleforget this a lot, when you
(19:43):
implement that strategy, nowit's saving you a year, every
year, every year.
So it's not just 20 grand in oneyear.
A hundred grand over the, youknow, however much that, that,
that goes on.
Um,
and that's a good way to dipyour toe in the
space.
Yeah.
KC Brothers (20:00):
Okay.
Yeah.
The
Jason Stine (20:00):
math is not obvious.
Spitballing numbers.
I'll tell my head.
KC Brothers (20:05):
No, I gotcha.
I gotcha.
But I love, I just, I said thatbecause you point out that
again, this it's a little bit ofa long game.
Not necessarily, but like, butalso like reminding your clients
about that long term impact.
Yeah.
Um, and the thing is like, accountants do, to your
point, okay, yeah, maybe brushup on some of these strategies,
(20:26):
but you also, especially ifyou're already a firm that is a
niche firm dealing with acertain type of industry or even
a certain type of client whoknows what it is, right?
You have data.
On however many clients you havein that industry.
So you now know that industry,or you now know, um, what it's,
(20:49):
uh, people who are landlords ofthree to ten properties, right?
And you can see trends, or youcan, Um, find ways to, you know,
use the data in a way that isappropriate to help you see
those trends to then say, Hey,you benchmark lower than average
(21:11):
for people of this type.
Yep.
Let's get you up, you know, likethat's a huge opportunity.
Jason Stine (21:18):
And a lot of the times the software will, has
tools to help you identify thatstuff.
You know, like if you're usingQuickBooks, a lot of, a lot of
people are, and I'm not pluggingQuickBooks, obviously, but, um,
I've lived in that world for along time.
And, you know, there were therewere features in there that
would tell you, you know, likethis client spending more in
this space than the average orless on that, you know, so, you
(21:40):
know, that's part of the rolethat technology can play is
enabling and surfacing thosedata points.
especially if you're doing thebooks, you know, that's, you've
got all their data, you knowexactly where they are and
you've got enough experience onyour own.
You don't even really need thosetools.
You can look at the numbers andyou got a pretty good idea.
(22:01):
Yeah.
Um, I love that you brought back the, brought the
landlord, uh, thing into like,as in that you did it in the
context of, of real estate.
But I also was thinking aboutthat back when we were talking
about.
Uh, ideal client because I'm,you know, I have rental
properties, having, you know,the, the pricing and everything
(22:22):
that you've set up, um, it'svery similar to, to being a
landlord.
Like when you're rentingproperties, if you've got your
rent too low, you're going toattract clients that are budget
clients, you know, and they'renot going to always take care of
your property.
The best, they're not going tobe the best tenants.
And it's just the same thing inthis industry, right?
You, if your, your rent ispriced higher, you're going to
(22:44):
attract higher income, higherquality, you know, tenants,
obviously not so high thatyou're out of range of the
market, but, um, that's a,that's a big deal.
And a lot of people make thatmistake when they become
landlords.
Is they think they're chargingtoo much ram, they try to go
cheap and that's not alwaysgoing to get you the best.
KC Brothers (23:02):
Yeah, pricing is a signal, that's for sure.
Um, okay, so back to exiting andstuff like that.
Because we went into advisory.
Um, in terms of like, you know,us being an expert, but there
was a, we touched a little biton just this trend of, of
people, um, a lot of CPAs beingon the brink of retirement.
(23:27):
Um, and I don't know that, youknow, if, if their partner, if
they've got their own firm thatthey're going to jump on the
conversation we just had, right.
About jumping into advisory.
Um, but there are a lot of them.
Um, can you talk a little bitabout.
Maybe what they should beconsidering or maybe even depend
(23:50):
where you want to take thisconversation given the
conversation we've already hadWhat people working with them?
Jason Stine (23:57):
That's exactly where my mind was going.
KC Brothers (24:00):
Okay
Jason Stine (24:01):
So, because I think, I think the, the folks
that are on, you know, on thebrink of retirement, they're
probably not even listening tothis podcast.
Right.
They're, they're doing theirthing and that's fine.
That's fine.
You know, but there's nothing Icould say to them, you know,
that I, that, that they wouldfind helpful, you know,
KC Brothers (24:19):
or that would change their mind overnight that
they haven't heard before.
Jason Stine (24:23):
Exactly.
They're not struggling.
They're, they're just doingtheir thing and then they're,
they're going to, you know,retire and they're, they,
they're going to decide how, howthey want to leave things, but
the, everybody else who's leftbehind though, and, and I find
this a lot with, um, people whohave like the, their kids are
(24:44):
going to take over the firm andthey're, you know, the kids are
grown adults and they're, youknow, they know what's up and
they know that they want to dothese things.
Right.
Um, but the, the owner, youknow, the, the, the, usually
it's a dad, uh, just isn'tinterested in, in changing
processes and implementing newtechnology and really rethinking
those things in big ways.
(25:05):
Um, 1, because of everythingwe've talked about, but also
because, you know, I'm a littleolder and I'm a little more set
in my ways.
I can't imagine what I'll belike when I'm, you know, 60, 70,
I'd be a lot more set in myways.
And it's just a, you know, it'sjust a human factor.
Um, and so they, the kids getfrustrated, uh, because they're,
they're trying to take over.
And so my advice always to themis just be patient.
(25:28):
It'll, it'll get there.
Um, and start lining up, keep,keep educating yourself on, you
know, getting the righttechnology in place.
Still try to have thoseconversations with, you know,
dad or the owner.
It's not always, you know.
Uh, it's not always just thatsituation.
Um, sometimes, you know, firmswill have people that they're
(25:48):
cultivating to ultimately takeover the firm.
Um, but most of them keep
KC Brothers (25:52):
on educating yourself.
Make sure to stay in the know.
Definitely.
Yeah.
And don't, yeah, don't give
Jason Stine (25:58):
up.
And, and have your, you know,start lining up your ducks so
that when, when you get thegreen light to go ahead and take
over, you can start implementingthose changes as quickly as
possible.
And it starts with thetechnology and the streamlining
workflows and processes.
If you've got file cabinetsaround the office with papers
piled on top of them, you'rebehind the eight ball.
(26:21):
Uh, so you, cause you're nevergoing to get to the next step if
you can't, if you're so buriedin manual processes.
Um, and this is also reallyimportant for firms that are
going to sell because nobody isgoing to buy a firm where they
have to physically go to yourlocation and go through manual
files, you know, like paperfile.
That's just, that is notattractive to anyone who's
(26:45):
interested in purchasing a firm.
They're purchasing, purchasingyour client list and they're
purchasing, not your workflows,but the, the clients that are,
are, are wanting.
Affirm that sits in today'stechnology because, you know,
people who are coming intoadulthood now don't know life
(27:07):
without a smartphone.
They don't even know what thatlife is.
KC Brothers (27:11):
Well, yeah.
So Amazon changed the game in somany ways.
Um, but people don't think ofhow Amazon changed the game in
regards to maybe how they, um,the, the market that they're
playing in.
And I say that because whatAmazon or apps or all sorts of
(27:32):
things have done is changed aconsumer's expectations.
Right.
And though DoorDash is not an accounting firm's
competitor, the experience Theexperience that their customer
gets from Amazon two daydelivery, from DoorDash, from
(27:58):
any myriad of things, right, ofthis really, um, simple
interface and interaction, um,the fast turnaround, the Clear
communication of what's neededfrom them, you know, all of that
They're gonna start applying toand expecting from the firm And
(28:21):
whether you're delivering it ornot, you may not even know that
they're making thesecomparisons.
Right?
Yes, they are.
And
Jason Stine (28:28):
it's not just the clients.
It's the employees too.
It's probably the employeesespecially.
They don't want to work in anantiquated environment They want
to be leveraging the latesttechnology because they know
it's better.
That's why it exists.
KC Brothers (28:42):
Yes, a hundred percent.
Um, well, thanks again, Jason.
It was a pleasure talking toyou.
Jason Stine (28:47):
Oh, it's my, my, uh, honor to be here.
Thank you for inviting me on theshow.
KC Brothers (28:51):
Anytime.
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