October 16, 2024 • 30 mins
Dominic Piscopo, founder of Big 4 Transparency, discusses his efforts to promote salary transparency in the accounting industry. He shares insights on addressing wage stagnation, the shift toward better work-life balance, and the importance of modernizing workflows to retain talent and improve profitability in accounting firms.
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KC Brothers (00:06):
Welcome to another episode of Canopy Practice
Success Podcast.
I am your host, one of yourhosts, Casey Brothers, and I'm
here with Dominic Piscopo, whois the founder of Big 4
Transparency.
Um, the name in and of itselfkind of gives a teaser, but why
don't you introduce what you do,Dominic?
Dominic Piscopo (00:27):
Yeah, absolutely.
Um, so yeah, I created big fortransparency about three years
ago.
It's a crowd source database ofaccounting salaries.
And essentially, the idea behindit was just why don't we all
come together and kind of createthis great resource for
ourselves.
To be able to use and figure outhow much we should be getting
compensated in the market.
(00:48):
So this is really a tool from aCPA built for CPAs and
accounting professionals atwide, not just CPAs.
I'm trying to iron that bit out.
But, um, and this was reallykind of meant to scratch my own
itch from when I was, you know,Working in a big four firm where
I thought it was extremelydifficult to understand what the
(01:09):
compensation curve looked like,when I could expect to start
making some real money.
Um, I'm based in Canada, so someof the like starting salaries
are a little bit lower here aswell.
Um, and just like understand,like, what am I working so hard
for?
What am I signing myself up for?
And I think it's also justreally valuable for people to be
able to advocate for themselves.
(01:31):
So.
Yeah, basically instead ofhaving all these like broken up
discussions online, I figuredwhy not have a tool where we
could kind of centralize all ofthat and build this database.
Uh, and yeah, it's been used bya quarter million accounting
professionals to date.
We've got over six or nearly 16,000 unique records.
Uh, after cleaning, we've we'veWe've had a lot more submissions
(01:54):
in that, but there was some dataproblems in the early days and
stuff like that.
Um, and yeah, it's like prettymuch anyone in North America,
you should be able to find outexactly how much you should be
getting compensated using this.
So, um,
KC Brothers (02:06):
yeah.
And we're not talking just bigfor any more than two, right?
Dominic Piscopo (02:10):
No.
Yeah.
The name was like, it was like abit of a pun, like being big for
transparency.
It was also like a, I don'treally know SEO that well, but
someone told me it would be areally good SEO play.
I think I'm top of Google forbig four salaries.
So it kind of worked, but it'slike, it is, it is absolutely
not meant to be just the bigfour.
(02:31):
Um, and the data isrepresentative of that.
There's a lot of people at smalland medium firms as well,
sharing their salaries.
So
KC Brothers (02:38):
Yeah, so curious because a topic I see floating
around all the time areconversations around pricing,
pricing of services, whetherit's price points, pricing
strategies, um, how much youwork, how much you earn,
revenue, profit, all that jazz,um, and there seems to always
(02:59):
be.
A little bit of a sense of like,I, I can't, what am I worth?
Maybe imposter syndrome there.
Um, how do I do this?
How do I communicate it?
Should I do it?
Um, what, if anything, maybe I'masking the wrong questions.
(03:19):
If you, if I should be asking adifferent question, let me know.
What, if anything, does yourdata tell you about, um, the,
the way.
Accounting professionals valuethemselves in terms of their
salary, their income.
Dominic Piscopo (03:37):
Yeah.
I mean, I think it all tiestogether.
Like I think compensation andpricing should be kind of part
of the same discussion to acertain degree.
So I think for a long time, likethere was absolute, just like a
ton of wage stagnation.
Um, which is what I think sortof.
Is that the root of a lot ofthis frustration from the
(03:57):
compensation perspective and theway that I kind of understand
the two working together is thatas a business owner or like a
firm operator in this case, youessentially you're building a
machine that makes money, right?
Like you, you need to be.
Able to create something wherewith a given amount of inputs,
(04:18):
you can generate outputs whereit makes sense to operate this
business.
So this is kind of the way thatI think compensation and pricing
tie in where if you can't affordto, you know, stay competitive
with the compensation market andpay.
Your accounting professionalstaff, what they should be
getting paid in the market, thatmight actually be a little bit
(04:39):
of a function of some issues inyour own accounting firm as
well.
Right.
Where you can't just kind ofpoint at the market and say, Oh
my God, it's unfair kids thesedays.
Um, where actually it really islike.
Compensation is what it is.
And especially now with like thetalent shortage that we're
(05:00):
seeing and increased competitionto get, you know, talent through
the door, you need to be able tokind of like operate your
business in a way that is stillprofitable with what it costs to
acquire and retain talent.
Right.
So I do think that, yeah, like.
Pricing and compensation, likego hand in hand and, and
(05:22):
accountants need to be able toessentially just advocate for
themselves on both sides.
Right.
And I think for, for many that'sbeen missing, which is maybe
where kind of some of this wagestagnation over the last decade
or so came from.
Where I think, you know, there'sa lot of stereotypes about
accountants that I wouldchallenge, but I would say in
(05:43):
general, this is not a superconflict.
You know, seeking population.
I think people are relativelyconflict averse, which again,
like from the from the jobstandpoint, people maybe don't
stand up for themselves as muchin terms of like the
compensation they should beasking for.
But then from a firm standpoint,that then trickles down and
(06:03):
enables.
Bad pricing where just as muchas it's difficult to have a
conversation with your employerabout, Hey, I'm behind the
market and I need to becompensated for what I'm worth.
The firm that needs to basicallycarry on that conversation with
the client and basically go,Hey, we've been under billing
you for three or four years.
We keep doing all this out ofscope work.
(06:25):
And that now needs to become aconversation because I need to
be able to operate my businessright.
So it's kind of like this wholechain of events where like.
Really for the industry to moveforward and for firms to still
be like an attractive businessmodel, both things need to be
happening, right?
Like you need to attract andretain great talent, but you
(06:45):
also need to be pricingaccordingly.
Otherwise you're just going tohave no margin left once you're
paying to market.
Right.
KC Brothers (06:52):
Yeah.
And I, I've never actuallythought about this until you
were just talking, but like, I,it makes me wonder what percent
of accounting professionals inboutique sized firms have worked
at a big four before and howmuch of this is inherited
culture or, um, you know, a lotof those decisions too, with big
(07:18):
four, right.
Pricing stuff is not in yourcontrol as the accountant.
With the skills that does thework, but when you're in a
boutique firm, it's a completelydifferent ballgame.
You're entering anentrepreneur's world.
Um, and you're not taught.
It's so funny.
I, I have mentioned on anotherepisode before how I feel like
(07:41):
accountants are the best fit tobe.
Owners, because you have, youhave baked in you the skills to
have business, um, financialoperational skills, right?
You know, concepts of PNLs andall of that, but it's so
(08:04):
different when it's.
You looking at you and you'relike, can I do, or, or taking
the time, even slowing down tospeed up.
That's another thing that like,I'm a big advocate of.
And I know I've said before, um,that it's not just about getting
in and getting clients.
There's, you need to do thatreflection and work on the
(08:25):
business and not just take, um,culture or operations that
you've experienced at a largefirm.
Dominic Piscopo (08:36):
Yeah, yeah, a lot of people I think are kind
of like shown A way of doingthings that's not super great
for the longterm and inoperating their own businesses.
So you need to kind of, you needto kind of figure out a way to
find the things that you need tochange and refine for your own
business and make them work thatway.
And yeah, like I, I do thinkthat accountants are starting
(08:59):
off on a good foot with like,you have this financial
understanding, you, you.
You know, you're able tointerpret results and stuff like
that, but there is a lot more toit.
I think when it comes down toit, which is, which is, yeah,
like you need to have a lot ofdifficult conversations.
And that's something that Ithink a lot of people are really
averse to.
And, uh, often like you're kindof shielded from in the big four
(09:22):
as well.
Like we, So I, I worked in taxfor about three years at
Deloitte and yeah, like I wasnever really the one to have the
hard client conversation oranything like that.
I was, our, our office was likereally, was really a good
office, I will say.
And we were very empowered tolike put our hand up and be
(09:44):
like, I think we're underbilling this client, like
someone come take a look atthis.
But we were never actually likeexposed to having the
conversation.
And I think it was really thepartner who was doing that.
Whereas again, in some smaller,more boutique places, like you
probably need to be ready to dothat as early as manager.
Right.
Um, whereas that's often notreally the case in the
(10:04):
accounting firms, uh, in the, inthe very, yeah, yeah.
KC Brothers (10:08):
And it's funny, I, um, I don't use Reddit in my
personal life and maybe Ishould, because it is
fascinating.
Whenever I go to learn somethingabout accountants, Reddit is
where I go.
Um, And it is so interesting tosee the comments people make
about getting fed up with theseinstitutions and the culture,
(10:31):
the hours, um, whatever it mightbe, and be like, Hey, I'm
thinking about branching out onmy own.
Um, any advice?
You know, I, these are common,common posts.
Dominic Piscopo (10:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I, um, the accounting Reddit, Ithink is incredible.
Um, I have, I have a good friendthat I work with who is in
engineering and he, like, hebrowses the accounting Reddit.
He's like, this is sofascinating.
Like the culture you all haveand like.
I think we actually like we havesome kind of special there.
(11:07):
It's a really, really, reallygood group there.
But yeah, a lot of people onthere are very kind of sick of
the status quo.
Um, this is a conversation I'vehad with a lot of either firm
operators or heads of companies.
People in culture over on my ownpodcast as well.
So, um, we, we've had a lot ofconversations around this, where
it just seems like the, theexisting model that's in place,
(11:30):
which is kind of sacrifice,sacrifice, sacrifice, and then
one day you'll become partner.
Um, it's just not a realincentive for people anymore.
Um, so even people like myself,like there was, there were a few
issues that kind of led to meleaving, but like one of them
was, you know, Yeah.
Seeing the lifestyle ofaccounting firm partners.
(11:51):
And I was just like, I, thisisn't super interesting to me.
And like, I think a lot ofpeople have kind of reevaluated
their lives.
Some people say COVID helpedwith this and kind of push this.
And I think that there is that.
I think there's also just a bitof a generational shift, but a
lot of people have evaluated thepath that they're on.
They put their head up.
(12:11):
They look at the lives ofpartners and they go, you know
what?
That's not for me.
Yeah.
And as an accountingprofessional, you have very
lucrative opportunities ahead ofyou.
Like you can go to industry anddo super well.
You can do your own firm.
You can go to a smaller firmthat'll respect lifestyle.
And so I think a lot of peopleare kind of making the, the
(12:32):
determination of like, I wouldrather make two to 400, 000 a
year working.
Very reasonable hours than tomake seven or 800, 000 a year
and never see my kids.
Right.
Um, so I think that that's likea big thing that the industry is
facing and a lot of people are,are really kind of like coming
(12:53):
about that and making thatdetermination for themselves.
And you know what, for somepeople, the big four partner
track is perfect.
And that's fine.
And that's good for them.
Um, I just think an increasingnumber of people are, are kind
of finding themselves goinglike, I don't think this is for
me.
And I don't think this is what Iwant to pursue.
And so like enter kind of the,the lifestyle first firm, like
(13:15):
I'm having a lot ofconversations with people like
Brandon Hall or like Yuri, um,like as a sole practitioner, but
like people who are just sayinglike, hold on, we can do things
better.
We might have a slightly lowermargin.
Or maybe honestly, maybe evennot, maybe your margins will be
just as good.
(13:36):
And we'll just do this thingwithout overworking everyone.
And we're just going to putlifestyle first.
And we're going to have greatemployee retention.
And, you know, and we're justgoing to try taking a crack at
this differently.
And I'm sure at that point, likethe promise of partner, like you
might make 100, 000 less a year,but like, to most people, I
(13:56):
think that that's way moreappealing.
KC Brothers (14:00):
Yeah, I think especially we're seeing this in
younger generations frommillennials on down this.
Unwillingness to participate inthese odd bad badges of honor.
Dominic Piscopo (14:17):
Yeah.
KC Brothers (14:17):
You know, I only get so many hours of sleep and
it's like, great.
Don't put in a blue ribbon onyour chest.
Who cares?
Dominic Piscopo (14:26):
Are you,
KC Brothers (14:26):
you're sacri you're risking your mental health.
I only, or I'm, no one would saythis out loud, but, um, I'm 50
pounds overweight.
Dominic Piscopo (14:35):
Yeah.
KC Brothers (14:36):
You know, like all these things that like really do
affect.
Life satisfaction.
Um, you mentioned kids, youknow, I only spend an hour a
week with my kids.
These are not badges of honorthat anybody claims to have, but
somehow they still pin on theirchest willingly.
(14:56):
And it's not.
Necessary.
I don't think it was evernecessary, to be honest, but
Dominic Piscopo (15:04):
I
KC Brothers (15:04):
think people are finally realizing that they have
the power to push against it.
Dominic Piscopo (15:08):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And thank goodness.
Cause even like some coworkerswho were, yeah, like in the
millennial generation, like justa couple of years older than me
kind of thing.
Would make those comments.
Sometimes when I was at the bigforest, just like, Oh, early
night a, Oh, it must be nicepacking it in early.
And I'm leaving at like 9.
PM.
And I'm like, I've done my work.
Like this doesn't have to bemiserable.
(15:30):
Like there's no reason to, andsome of these people are just on
their phone all day anyways,right?
Like, it's like, There's,there's really, really no reason
for that.
And yeah, I'm, I'm so happy thatpeople are kind of like moving
past that a little bit.
Um,
KC Brothers (15:44):
yeah,
Dominic Piscopo (15:45):
so,
KC Brothers (15:46):
so what do you say?
Um, we do still see a lot ofpeople in their near retirement
ages.
Um, uh, not a big four.
We're just talking local firms,no matter the size.
Dominic Piscopo (16:02):
Yeah.
KC Brothers (16:03):
Um, still in partner, still influencing the
culture and maybe still carryingthis badge of honor culture that
we were just talking about.
How do you talk to them or howdo you talk to the people at the
firm to help?
In this shift to say, I mean,do, do they have to give up?
(16:24):
Do they have to, um, sacrificetheir margins?
You've talked about that.
Do they have to sacrifice theircompensation?
I mean, you had, you did saylike, okay, maybe you're making
two to 400, 000 less a year togain back some life.
So like what, what's on thechopping block and what actually
isn't, what might be some mythshere?
Dominic Piscopo (16:47):
Well, I think one of the biggest things is
like.
I think there is a bit of abreaking point and it'll happen
at different times for differentfirms, but like some of the
stress that flows up to partneressentially just comes from like
not being able to like retaingood talent.
Right.
So, because again, if you'reunderpaying people, they're
(17:09):
going to leave, like, especiallyright now when like, there's a
super hot market for accounts.
So like, as you fail to retainpeople, well, like the buck
stops with the partners.
Like, that's the thing is like,if there's a client issue and
the manager who would have dealtwith that just left and the new
manager has no idea, like,what's going on in that file
(17:30):
left or what's going on in thatfile yet, like it's.
It's the partner who's going tohave to figure it out at the end
of the day, right?
Or they're going to lose thatpiece of business.
And that might happen anyways,at this point, because them
having to step in, like theyprobably don't have time to do
the whole client interactionthing in the way that it should
have been done.
Right.
So at a certain point, like, Ithink.
(17:53):
Just more and more and more andmore gets pushed up on the
partners if they're not doing agood job of keeping their people
happy.
And at a certain point, itbecomes like the sound business
decision from like a purelycapitalist perspective of like,
Hey, we need to make this abetter place to work, right?
Because at the end of the day,like you're losing business,
you're losing clients.
(18:14):
And you're getting sleeplessnights.
So it goes a little bit beyondjust like them having to make
the decision to improve theirown lifestyle.
I think it is at a certainpoint, it becomes about
profitability again.
Like it kind of goes full circlewhere you've tried so hard to
squeeze out everything out ofthis business that it is now
like backfiring and you're kindof losing people.
Right.
(18:34):
So.
It's, it's hard to like sayexactly how that's going to go
down for them.
Like, you know, cause thesepeople still exist and some are
more stubborn than others andright, like some people might
hold out for a really long time.
And, um, all I can do from myside is, you know, try to have
(18:54):
some of these conversations withpeople.
And, um, You know, I hope to beable to kind of share some more
case studies in the years tocome of firms that I'm working
with who have come to me andsaid, I want to pay near the top
of market.
And I want to see how that goes.
Um, while not overworking mystaff, uh, because I think those
are going to be really, reallypositive case studies.
(19:16):
And, you know, there's a lot ofother people out there kind of
With bigger audiences than mineas well, really advocating for
this type of stuff.
And I think just eventually,right, as more and more people
talk about it, it's going toreach more and more, more and
more folks.
Um, and you know, for the moststubborn firms who really just
don't want to adapt, like Ithink eventually it's just going
(19:38):
to become a business thing andthey're just going to not be
able to grow and they're goingto start kind of losing client
work because you can't just, youcan't do everything yourself.
Right.
Yeah,
KC Brothers (19:49):
I mean, in this day and age, there's more to scaling
than burning the midnight oil.
I personally felt that way for along time, um, that, you know,
we're, we're in an industry too,where we have large, and I'm
going to go there because I workfor a software company.
(20:10):
So we have large softwarecompanies who have been around
for 50 years.
Um, and it's tools that peopleare used to, and I'm sorry, but
in 2024 to scale, to break downthese cultural misnomers, myths
(20:31):
of, um, I've got to work inorder to bring in the bucks.
Right.
Um, It's like, there are otherways to, you can gear, or you
can oil up your gears.
You can create moreefficiencies, all of these
different things.
And we have so many tools inplace available.
(20:54):
Um, but the taking of the timeseems to be really hard because
for so long too, there's justthe mentality of time is money.
How can I set aside time to.
Rework my operations to rethinkmy tech stack to renegotiate
(21:15):
salaries to do all of thesethings that really will put them
in a healthier spot as a firm,not just personally for work
life balance, but also in termsof revenue.
Dominic Piscopo (21:28):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think like a lot.
Comes down to being like willingto kind of make the investment,
right?
Like I've always been thatperson who I also like, I hate a
manual task.
Like I want to spend the 20hours to build the thing.
That's going to save me one houra month.
And I'm like, Hey, over twoyears, this'll be good.
Um, right.
(21:48):
And, and like, you do need somepeople who kind of want to make
those investments.
And again, like software iscoming a long way.
And this is where I think peopleneed to be.
More excited about progression,uh, and less worried about it.
Like everyone's, you know,talking about AI, um, but even
outside of AI, just taskautomation, like workflow
(22:09):
improvements and stuff likethat.
Like, I don't think that'ssomething to be afraid of
because if you have this hugepopulation of people who are
working nine till seven and youcan, you know, wipe out 30
percent of jobs, that might notlook like 30 percent of
accountants are now unemployed,that might look like.
All of these accountants whowere working 30 percent too much
(22:30):
are now just working.
a normal amount, right?
So I think that there's a lot tobe excited for there.
And, and people really, really,really need to like take the
time and look at your workflowbecause often things like they
just really pay for themselves,both in terms of the financial
investment and the time it tookto implement it.
And softwares just keep gettingbetter and better and easier to
(22:52):
implement.
Right.
So I think like eventually it'sjust going to be really like
undeniable and it's like, Ifagain, firms who refuse to adapt
and are still using paper arejust going to go out of business
because it's going to cost likeso much money for them to be
able to get anything out of thedoor versus someone who's
actually like effective.
And, um, and like, even from atalent perspective, like, I
(23:15):
think people need to be smartabout like the leverage for your
time.
Right?
Like, if you have a partnerwho's doing so much on admin,
but thinks getting an executiveassistant is too expensive.
Like.
Guess what?
Like the opportunity cost ofyour time is.
It's so much more expensive.
And like this other person nowhas a great job, right?
(23:36):
And you're, you've got your lifeback, right?
So I think people really need tobe open to what's out there and
how they can kind of do thingsbetter, for sure.
And that's going to be a hugepart of it.
Peace to like the talent crisisis, you know what, maybe there
are going to be less accountantsin the market, but like, we can
do way more with less, um, whenwe like improve our workflows.
(23:57):
Yeah.
KC Brothers (23:58):
Yeah.
Couldn't agree more.
I feel like there are just somany signals in the industry
right now between seeing fewer.
Individuals graduating andchoosing to go into an
accounting firm, a moretraditional path and going for
in house talent or even financein general and not necessarily
(24:21):
accounting.
Um, There are so many trends andthings happening right now that
I think you said the word adaptseveral times And that seems to
be the key that like you're Ilove this.
There's this thing called theadoption curve where you can be
(24:44):
and Early adopter, um, all theway to a laggard in terms of
adopting things.
And, and there are pros and consall along that.
Right.
Um, yeah, it can be very basedon your personality, but right
now I feel like.
We're seeing, we're, we're stillat the front of that adoption
(25:06):
curve in terms of people makingthese changes.
And sooner or later people willbe forced.
There will be that huge group oflaggards that like, there's no
other option now that theindustry has moved so
dramatically to accommodate forthese big shifts that now I'm,
I'm.
Maybe being left in the dust abit or having to sell off my
(25:29):
firm or whatever it might be,but, um, future proofing your
firm now is all of these things,right?
It's,
Dominic Piscopo (25:38):
yeah,
KC Brothers (25:39):
helping you retain the talent by re evaluating.
I mean, we could go through thelaundry list again, but
Dominic Piscopo (25:46):
yeah.
Yeah.
And I mean, Even when it comesto like exiting your firm,
right?
Like, yeah, some people aregetting kind of pushed to it,
but some people go like, ah,like why adapt?
I'm going to sell in two orthree years anyways and take my
retirement.
But like, are you thinking aboutyour exit multiple?
Because like, I've talked to alot of people who are like
(26:07):
acquiring firms and things likethat.
And, and like being up to datewith the technologies and like
your strategies and stuff, likethat might.
Right.
Be like a really busy six monthsor a year for your firm, but
like, you've spent 30 yearsbuilding this thing.
And that might make thedifference between a 0.
(26:28):
9 X and a 1.
6 X multiple on your revenues,like.
Yeah.
Like you, you're getting a 50percent higher return on that 30
years you invested just bymodernizing your firm.
Like that's so worthwhile even.
Yeah.
KC Brothers (26:46):
I'm so glad you went there, especially if you're
talking about things you can doin that last.
Stretch before you do exit andin terms of affecting that
multiplier, like you think too,if you don't do that, take into
account with inflation and allthe different things of just
like, if you'd be dumb not tomodernize your firm before that.
(27:06):
And, and in fact, if you can doit beforehand, it creates a
better culture.
We're, we're getting to thepoint where, man, I know not
everybody's going to watch this.
But I'm holding up my phone.
We all have smartphones and weall interact with apps that are
(27:30):
user friendly, um, and havequick, easy ways to interact
with them and do business.
Whatever that business is,right.
Whether that's a quick textmessage, a video call, or even
something like a door dash, whoknows what, right.
But we have these, actually, Ifeel like, um, There was
(27:51):
research done a while ago on theeffect that Amazon Prime, just
the like two day free shipping,had on The economy at scale,
that it wasn't just this thingthat affected, was a
differentiator for them intheir, their market, but rather
we now all have this thing tocompare against our entire life,
(28:16):
you know, like, and so Amazontwo day delivery, um, makes me
impatient in other areas of mylife.
Dominic Piscopo (28:24):
No, that's so true,
KC Brothers (28:26):
right?
But you think about bringingyour firm into 2024, even though
you may have an exit strategy,how instantly there, there will
always be pains with changealways.
Dominic Piscopo (28:38):
Yeah.
KC Brothers (28:38):
Um, but you worked through them and you get to the
other side of, you know, beingmore efficient and you elevate
the morale in your firm and, andwho knows, maybe Yeah, maybe
your exit is way better oracquisition, whatever the
situation is, but you've alsothen contributed to a better,
(29:00):
um, workplace, which I think isjust a good place to end on in
your career to feel so satisfiedthat you'd built this thing and
ended on a high note.
Dominic Piscopo (29:12):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I love having conversations withpeople who are like, so
conscious of.
The experience that they'recreating for their employees and
kind of like the responsibilitythat they have to like, make
this a positive experience forthem.
Um, that can provide great livesfor them as well.
Like I find those people likewho have that type of empathy
(29:35):
will kind of go the extra milein terms of doing whatever it
takes to kind of provide that.
And I think that makes for likegreat firm leaders.
Right.
So.
(29:56):
Oh, I think one of us froze fora sec.
Yeah.
KC Brothers (29:58):
I missed a little bit of what you said.
Um, uh, but yeah, I feel likewe're just going to see more
humanization hopefully.
Right.
Dominic Piscopo (30:11):
Fingers crossed.
KC Brothers (30:12):
Only has a better, only has a bigger, better,
bigger impact on the industry atlarge.
But Dominic, thank you so much.
What a great conversation.
Thank you again, Dominic.
Dominic Piscopo (30:31):
Yeah.
Thanks for having me on.
I really appreciate it.
Thanks.
Welcome to another episode of Canopy Practice
Success Podcast.
I am your host, one of yourhosts, Casey Brothers, and I'm
here with Dominic Piscopo, whois the founder of Big 4
Transparency.
Um, the name in and of itselfkind of gives a teaser, but why
don't you introduce what you do,Dominic?
Dominic Piscopo (00:27):
Yeah, absolutely.
Um, so yeah, I created big fortransparency about three years
ago.
It's a crowd source database ofaccounting salaries.
And essentially, the idea behindit was just why don't we all
come together and kind of createthis great resource for
ourselves.
To be able to use and figure outhow much we should be getting
compensated in the market.
(00:48):
So this is really a tool from aCPA built for CPAs and
accounting professionals atwide, not just CPAs.
I'm trying to iron that bit out.
But, um, and this was reallykind of meant to scratch my own
itch from when I was, you know,Working in a big four firm where
I thought it was extremelydifficult to understand what the
(01:09):
compensation curve looked like,when I could expect to start
making some real money.
Um, I'm based in Canada, so someof the like starting salaries
are a little bit lower here aswell.
Um, and just like understand,like, what am I working so hard
for?
What am I signing myself up for?
And I think it's also justreally valuable for people to be
able to advocate for themselves.
(01:31):
So.
Yeah, basically instead ofhaving all these like broken up
discussions online, I figuredwhy not have a tool where we
could kind of centralize all ofthat and build this database.
Uh, and yeah, it's been used bya quarter million accounting
professionals to date.
We've got over six or nearly 16,000 unique records.
Uh, after cleaning, we've we'veWe've had a lot more submissions
(01:54):
in that, but there was some dataproblems in the early days and
stuff like that.
Um, and yeah, it's like prettymuch anyone in North America,
you should be able to find outexactly how much you should be
getting compensated using this.
So, um,
KC Brothers (02:06):
yeah.
And we're not talking just bigfor any more than two, right?
Dominic Piscopo (02:10):
No.
Yeah.
The name was like, it was like abit of a pun, like being big for
transparency.
It was also like a, I don'treally know SEO that well, but
someone told me it would be areally good SEO play.
I think I'm top of Google forbig four salaries.
So it kind of worked, but it'slike, it is, it is absolutely
not meant to be just the bigfour.
(02:31):
Um, and the data isrepresentative of that.
There's a lot of people at smalland medium firms as well,
sharing their salaries.
So
KC Brothers (02:38):
Yeah, so curious because a topic I see floating
around all the time areconversations around pricing,
pricing of services, whetherit's price points, pricing
strategies, um, how much youwork, how much you earn,
revenue, profit, all that jazz,um, and there seems to always
(02:59):
be.
A little bit of a sense of like,I, I can't, what am I worth?
Maybe imposter syndrome there.
Um, how do I do this?
How do I communicate it?
Should I do it?
Um, what, if anything, maybe I'masking the wrong questions.
(03:19):
If you, if I should be asking adifferent question, let me know.
What, if anything, does yourdata tell you about, um, the,
the way.
Accounting professionals valuethemselves in terms of their
salary, their income.
Dominic Piscopo (03:37):
Yeah.
I mean, I think it all tiestogether.
Like I think compensation andpricing should be kind of part
of the same discussion to acertain degree.
So I think for a long time, likethere was absolute, just like a
ton of wage stagnation.
Um, which is what I think sortof.
Is that the root of a lot ofthis frustration from the
(03:57):
compensation perspective and theway that I kind of understand
the two working together is thatas a business owner or like a
firm operator in this case, youessentially you're building a
machine that makes money, right?
Like you, you need to be.
Able to create something wherewith a given amount of inputs,
(04:18):
you can generate outputs whereit makes sense to operate this
business.
So this is kind of the way thatI think compensation and pricing
tie in where if you can't affordto, you know, stay competitive
with the compensation market andpay.
Your accounting professionalstaff, what they should be
getting paid in the market, thatmight actually be a little bit
(04:39):
of a function of some issues inyour own accounting firm as
well.
Right.
Where you can't just kind ofpoint at the market and say, Oh
my God, it's unfair kids thesedays.
Um, where actually it really islike.
Compensation is what it is.
And especially now with like thetalent shortage that we're
(05:00):
seeing and increased competitionto get, you know, talent through
the door, you need to be able tokind of like operate your
business in a way that is stillprofitable with what it costs to
acquire and retain talent.
Right.
So I do think that, yeah, like.
Pricing and compensation, likego hand in hand and, and
(05:22):
accountants need to be able toessentially just advocate for
themselves on both sides.
Right.
And I think for, for many that'sbeen missing, which is maybe
where kind of some of this wagestagnation over the last decade
or so came from.
Where I think, you know, there'sa lot of stereotypes about
accountants that I wouldchallenge, but I would say in
(05:43):
general, this is not a superconflict.
You know, seeking population.
I think people are relativelyconflict averse, which again,
like from the from the jobstandpoint, people maybe don't
stand up for themselves as muchin terms of like the
compensation they should beasking for.
But then from a firm standpoint,that then trickles down and
(06:03):
enables.
Bad pricing where just as muchas it's difficult to have a
conversation with your employerabout, Hey, I'm behind the
market and I need to becompensated for what I'm worth.
The firm that needs to basicallycarry on that conversation with
the client and basically go,Hey, we've been under billing
you for three or four years.
We keep doing all this out ofscope work.
(06:25):
And that now needs to become aconversation because I need to
be able to operate my businessright.
So it's kind of like this wholechain of events where like.
Really for the industry to moveforward and for firms to still
be like an attractive businessmodel, both things need to be
happening, right?
Like you need to attract andretain great talent, but you
(06:45):
also need to be pricingaccordingly.
Otherwise you're just going tohave no margin left once you're
paying to market.
Right.
KC Brothers (06:52):
Yeah.
And I, I've never actuallythought about this until you
were just talking, but like, I,it makes me wonder what percent
of accounting professionals inboutique sized firms have worked
at a big four before and howmuch of this is inherited
culture or, um, you know, a lotof those decisions too, with big
(07:18):
four, right.
Pricing stuff is not in yourcontrol as the accountant.
With the skills that does thework, but when you're in a
boutique firm, it's a completelydifferent ballgame.
You're entering anentrepreneur's world.
Um, and you're not taught.
It's so funny.
I, I have mentioned on anotherepisode before how I feel like
(07:41):
accountants are the best fit tobe.
Owners, because you have, youhave baked in you the skills to
have business, um, financialoperational skills, right?
You know, concepts of PNLs andall of that, but it's so
(08:04):
different when it's.
You looking at you and you'relike, can I do, or, or taking
the time, even slowing down tospeed up.
That's another thing that like,I'm a big advocate of.
And I know I've said before, um,that it's not just about getting
in and getting clients.
There's, you need to do thatreflection and work on the
(08:25):
business and not just take, um,culture or operations that
you've experienced at a largefirm.
Dominic Piscopo (08:36):
Yeah, yeah, a lot of people I think are kind
of like shown A way of doingthings that's not super great
for the longterm and inoperating their own businesses.
So you need to kind of, you needto kind of figure out a way to
find the things that you need tochange and refine for your own
business and make them work thatway.
And yeah, like I, I do thinkthat accountants are starting
(08:59):
off on a good foot with like,you have this financial
understanding, you, you.
You know, you're able tointerpret results and stuff like
that, but there is a lot more toit.
I think when it comes down toit, which is, which is, yeah,
like you need to have a lot ofdifficult conversations.
And that's something that Ithink a lot of people are really
averse to.
And, uh, often like you're kindof shielded from in the big four
(09:22):
as well.
Like we, So I, I worked in taxfor about three years at
Deloitte and yeah, like I wasnever really the one to have the
hard client conversation oranything like that.
I was, our, our office was likereally, was really a good
office, I will say.
And we were very empowered tolike put our hand up and be
(09:44):
like, I think we're underbilling this client, like
someone come take a look atthis.
But we were never actually likeexposed to having the
conversation.
And I think it was really thepartner who was doing that.
Whereas again, in some smaller,more boutique places, like you
probably need to be ready to dothat as early as manager.
Right.
Um, whereas that's often notreally the case in the
(10:04):
accounting firms, uh, in the, inthe very, yeah, yeah.
KC Brothers (10:08):
And it's funny, I, um, I don't use Reddit in my
personal life and maybe Ishould, because it is
fascinating.
Whenever I go to learn somethingabout accountants, Reddit is
where I go.
Um, And it is so interesting tosee the comments people make
about getting fed up with theseinstitutions and the culture,
(10:31):
the hours, um, whatever it mightbe, and be like, Hey, I'm
thinking about branching out onmy own.
Um, any advice?
You know, I, these are common,common posts.
Dominic Piscopo (10:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I, um, the accounting Reddit, Ithink is incredible.
Um, I have, I have a good friendthat I work with who is in
engineering and he, like, hebrowses the accounting Reddit.
He's like, this is sofascinating.
Like the culture you all haveand like.
I think we actually like we havesome kind of special there.
(11:07):
It's a really, really, reallygood group there.
But yeah, a lot of people onthere are very kind of sick of
the status quo.
Um, this is a conversation I'vehad with a lot of either firm
operators or heads of companies.
People in culture over on my ownpodcast as well.
So, um, we, we've had a lot ofconversations around this, where
it just seems like the, theexisting model that's in place,
(11:30):
which is kind of sacrifice,sacrifice, sacrifice, and then
one day you'll become partner.
Um, it's just not a realincentive for people anymore.
Um, so even people like myself,like there was, there were a few
issues that kind of led to meleaving, but like one of them
was, you know, Yeah.
Seeing the lifestyle ofaccounting firm partners.
(11:51):
And I was just like, I, thisisn't super interesting to me.
And like, I think a lot ofpeople have kind of reevaluated
their lives.
Some people say COVID helpedwith this and kind of push this.
And I think that there is that.
I think there's also just a bitof a generational shift, but a
lot of people have evaluated thepath that they're on.
They put their head up.
(12:11):
They look at the lives ofpartners and they go, you know
what?
That's not for me.
Yeah.
And as an accountingprofessional, you have very
lucrative opportunities ahead ofyou.
Like you can go to industry anddo super well.
You can do your own firm.
You can go to a smaller firmthat'll respect lifestyle.
And so I think a lot of peopleare kind of making the, the
(12:32):
determination of like, I wouldrather make two to 400, 000 a
year working.
Very reasonable hours than tomake seven or 800, 000 a year
and never see my kids.
Right.
Um, so I think that that's likea big thing that the industry is
facing and a lot of people are,are really kind of like coming
(12:53):
about that and making thatdetermination for themselves.
And you know what, for somepeople, the big four partner
track is perfect.
And that's fine.
And that's good for them.
Um, I just think an increasingnumber of people are, are kind
of finding themselves goinglike, I don't think this is for
me.
And I don't think this is what Iwant to pursue.
And so like enter kind of the,the lifestyle first firm, like
(13:15):
I'm having a lot ofconversations with people like
Brandon Hall or like Yuri, um,like as a sole practitioner, but
like people who are just sayinglike, hold on, we can do things
better.
We might have a slightly lowermargin.
Or maybe honestly, maybe evennot, maybe your margins will be
just as good.
(13:36):
And we'll just do this thingwithout overworking everyone.
And we're just going to putlifestyle first.
And we're going to have greatemployee retention.
And, you know, and we're justgoing to try taking a crack at
this differently.
And I'm sure at that point, likethe promise of partner, like you
might make 100, 000 less a year,but like, to most people, I
(13:56):
think that that's way moreappealing.
KC Brothers (14:00):
Yeah, I think especially we're seeing this in
younger generations frommillennials on down this.
Unwillingness to participate inthese odd bad badges of honor.
Dominic Piscopo (14:17):
Yeah.
KC Brothers (14:17):
You know, I only get so many hours of sleep and
it's like, great.
Don't put in a blue ribbon onyour chest.
Who cares?
Dominic Piscopo (14:26):
Are you,
KC Brothers (14:26):
you're sacri you're risking your mental health.
I only, or I'm, no one would saythis out loud, but, um, I'm 50
pounds overweight.
Dominic Piscopo (14:35):
Yeah.
KC Brothers (14:36):
You know, like all these things that like really do
affect.
Life satisfaction.
Um, you mentioned kids, youknow, I only spend an hour a
week with my kids.
These are not badges of honorthat anybody claims to have, but
somehow they still pin on theirchest willingly.
(14:56):
And it's not.
Necessary.
I don't think it was evernecessary, to be honest, but
Dominic Piscopo (15:04):
I
KC Brothers (15:04):
think people are finally realizing that they have
the power to push against it.
Dominic Piscopo (15:08):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And thank goodness.
Cause even like some coworkerswho were, yeah, like in the
millennial generation, like justa couple of years older than me
kind of thing.
Would make those comments.
Sometimes when I was at the bigforest, just like, Oh, early
night a, Oh, it must be nicepacking it in early.
And I'm leaving at like 9.
PM.
And I'm like, I've done my work.
Like this doesn't have to bemiserable.
(15:30):
Like there's no reason to, andsome of these people are just on
their phone all day anyways,right?
Like, it's like, There's,there's really, really no reason
for that.
And yeah, I'm, I'm so happy thatpeople are kind of like moving
past that a little bit.
Um,
KC Brothers (15:44):
yeah,
Dominic Piscopo (15:45):
so,
KC Brothers (15:46):
so what do you say?
Um, we do still see a lot ofpeople in their near retirement
ages.
Um, uh, not a big four.
We're just talking local firms,no matter the size.
Dominic Piscopo (16:02):
Yeah.
KC Brothers (16:03):
Um, still in partner, still influencing the
culture and maybe still carryingthis badge of honor culture that
we were just talking about.
How do you talk to them or howdo you talk to the people at the
firm to help?
In this shift to say, I mean,do, do they have to give up?
(16:24):
Do they have to, um, sacrificetheir margins?
You've talked about that.
Do they have to sacrifice theircompensation?
I mean, you had, you did saylike, okay, maybe you're making
two to 400, 000 less a year togain back some life.
So like what, what's on thechopping block and what actually
isn't, what might be some mythshere?
Dominic Piscopo (16:47):
Well, I think one of the biggest things is
like.
I think there is a bit of abreaking point and it'll happen
at different times for differentfirms, but like some of the
stress that flows up to partneressentially just comes from like
not being able to like retaingood talent.
Right.
So, because again, if you'reunderpaying people, they're
(17:09):
going to leave, like, especiallyright now when like, there's a
super hot market for accounts.
So like, as you fail to retainpeople, well, like the buck
stops with the partners.
Like, that's the thing is like,if there's a client issue and
the manager who would have dealtwith that just left and the new
manager has no idea, like,what's going on in that file
(17:30):
left or what's going on in thatfile yet, like it's.
It's the partner who's going tohave to figure it out at the end
of the day, right?
Or they're going to lose thatpiece of business.
And that might happen anyways,at this point, because them
having to step in, like theyprobably don't have time to do
the whole client interactionthing in the way that it should
have been done.
Right.
So at a certain point, like, Ithink.
(17:53):
Just more and more and more andmore gets pushed up on the
partners if they're not doing agood job of keeping their people
happy.
And at a certain point, itbecomes like the sound business
decision from like a purelycapitalist perspective of like,
Hey, we need to make this abetter place to work, right?
Because at the end of the day,like you're losing business,
you're losing clients.
(18:14):
And you're getting sleeplessnights.
So it goes a little bit beyondjust like them having to make
the decision to improve theirown lifestyle.
I think it is at a certainpoint, it becomes about
profitability again.
Like it kind of goes full circlewhere you've tried so hard to
squeeze out everything out ofthis business that it is now
like backfiring and you're kindof losing people.
Right.
(18:34):
So.
It's, it's hard to like sayexactly how that's going to go
down for them.
Like, you know, cause thesepeople still exist and some are
more stubborn than others andright, like some people might
hold out for a really long time.
And, um, all I can do from myside is, you know, try to have
(18:54):
some of these conversations withpeople.
And, um, You know, I hope to beable to kind of share some more
case studies in the years tocome of firms that I'm working
with who have come to me andsaid, I want to pay near the top
of market.
And I want to see how that goes.
Um, while not overworking mystaff, uh, because I think those
are going to be really, reallypositive case studies.
(19:16):
And, you know, there's a lot ofother people out there kind of
With bigger audiences than mineas well, really advocating for
this type of stuff.
And I think just eventually,right, as more and more people
talk about it, it's going toreach more and more, more and
more folks.
Um, and you know, for the moststubborn firms who really just
don't want to adapt, like Ithink eventually it's just going
(19:38):
to become a business thing andthey're just going to not be
able to grow and they're goingto start kind of losing client
work because you can't just, youcan't do everything yourself.
Right.
Yeah,
KC Brothers (19:49):
I mean, in this day and age, there's more to scaling
than burning the midnight oil.
I personally felt that way for along time, um, that, you know,
we're, we're in an industry too,where we have large, and I'm
going to go there because I workfor a software company.
(20:10):
So we have large softwarecompanies who have been around
for 50 years.
Um, and it's tools that peopleare used to, and I'm sorry, but
in 2024 to scale, to break downthese cultural misnomers, myths
(20:31):
of, um, I've got to work inorder to bring in the bucks.
Right.
Um, It's like, there are otherways to, you can gear, or you
can oil up your gears.
You can create moreefficiencies, all of these
different things.
And we have so many tools inplace available.
(20:54):
Um, but the taking of the timeseems to be really hard because
for so long too, there's justthe mentality of time is money.
How can I set aside time to.
Rework my operations to rethinkmy tech stack to renegotiate
(21:15):
salaries to do all of thesethings that really will put them
in a healthier spot as a firm,not just personally for work
life balance, but also in termsof revenue.
Dominic Piscopo (21:28):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think like a lot.
Comes down to being like willingto kind of make the investment,
right?
Like I've always been thatperson who I also like, I hate a
manual task.
Like I want to spend the 20hours to build the thing.
That's going to save me one houra month.
And I'm like, Hey, over twoyears, this'll be good.
Um, right.
(21:48):
And, and like, you do need somepeople who kind of want to make
those investments.
And again, like software iscoming a long way.
And this is where I think peopleneed to be.
More excited about progression,uh, and less worried about it.
Like everyone's, you know,talking about AI, um, but even
outside of AI, just taskautomation, like workflow
(22:09):
improvements and stuff likethat.
Like, I don't think that'ssomething to be afraid of
because if you have this hugepopulation of people who are
working nine till seven and youcan, you know, wipe out 30
percent of jobs, that might notlook like 30 percent of
accountants are now unemployed,that might look like.
All of these accountants whowere working 30 percent too much
(22:30):
are now just working.
a normal amount, right?
So I think that there's a lot tobe excited for there.
And, and people really, really,really need to like take the
time and look at your workflowbecause often things like they
just really pay for themselves,both in terms of the financial
investment and the time it tookto implement it.
And softwares just keep gettingbetter and better and easier to
(22:52):
implement.
Right.
So I think like eventually it'sjust going to be really like
undeniable and it's like, Ifagain, firms who refuse to adapt
and are still using paper arejust going to go out of business
because it's going to cost likeso much money for them to be
able to get anything out of thedoor versus someone who's
actually like effective.
And, um, and like, even from atalent perspective, like, I
(23:15):
think people need to be smartabout like the leverage for your
time.
Right?
Like, if you have a partnerwho's doing so much on admin,
but thinks getting an executiveassistant is too expensive.
Like.
Guess what?
Like the opportunity cost ofyour time is.
It's so much more expensive.
And like this other person nowhas a great job, right?
(23:36):
And you're, you've got your lifeback, right?
So I think people really need tobe open to what's out there and
how they can kind of do thingsbetter, for sure.
And that's going to be a hugepart of it.
Peace to like the talent crisisis, you know what, maybe there
are going to be less accountantsin the market, but like, we can
do way more with less, um, whenwe like improve our workflows.
(23:57):
Yeah.
KC Brothers (23:58):
Yeah.
Couldn't agree more.
I feel like there are just somany signals in the industry
right now between seeing fewer.
Individuals graduating andchoosing to go into an
accounting firm, a moretraditional path and going for
in house talent or even financein general and not necessarily
(24:21):
accounting.
Um, There are so many trends andthings happening right now that
I think you said the word adaptseveral times And that seems to
be the key that like you're Ilove this.
There's this thing called theadoption curve where you can be
(24:44):
and Early adopter, um, all theway to a laggard in terms of
adopting things.
And, and there are pros and consall along that.
Right.
Um, yeah, it can be very basedon your personality, but right
now I feel like.
We're seeing, we're, we're stillat the front of that adoption
(25:06):
curve in terms of people makingthese changes.
And sooner or later people willbe forced.
There will be that huge group oflaggards that like, there's no
other option now that theindustry has moved so
dramatically to accommodate forthese big shifts that now I'm,
I'm.
Maybe being left in the dust abit or having to sell off my
(25:29):
firm or whatever it might be,but, um, future proofing your
firm now is all of these things,right?
It's,
Dominic Piscopo (25:38):
yeah,
KC Brothers (25:39):
helping you retain the talent by re evaluating.
I mean, we could go through thelaundry list again, but
Dominic Piscopo (25:46):
yeah.
Yeah.
And I mean, Even when it comesto like exiting your firm,
right?
Like, yeah, some people aregetting kind of pushed to it,
but some people go like, ah,like why adapt?
I'm going to sell in two orthree years anyways and take my
retirement.
But like, are you thinking aboutyour exit multiple?
Because like, I've talked to alot of people who are like
(26:07):
acquiring firms and things likethat.
And, and like being up to datewith the technologies and like
your strategies and stuff, likethat might.
Right.
Be like a really busy six monthsor a year for your firm, but
like, you've spent 30 yearsbuilding this thing.
And that might make thedifference between a 0.
(26:28):
9 X and a 1.
6 X multiple on your revenues,like.
Yeah.
Like you, you're getting a 50percent higher return on that 30
years you invested just bymodernizing your firm.
Like that's so worthwhile even.
Yeah.
KC Brothers (26:46):
I'm so glad you went there, especially if you're
talking about things you can doin that last.
Stretch before you do exit andin terms of affecting that
multiplier, like you think too,if you don't do that, take into
account with inflation and allthe different things of just
like, if you'd be dumb not tomodernize your firm before that.
(27:06):
And, and in fact, if you can doit beforehand, it creates a
better culture.
We're, we're getting to thepoint where, man, I know not
everybody's going to watch this.
But I'm holding up my phone.
We all have smartphones and weall interact with apps that are
(27:30):
user friendly, um, and havequick, easy ways to interact
with them and do business.
Whatever that business is,right.
Whether that's a quick textmessage, a video call, or even
something like a door dash, whoknows what, right.
But we have these, actually, Ifeel like, um, There was
(27:51):
research done a while ago on theeffect that Amazon Prime, just
the like two day free shipping,had on The economy at scale,
that it wasn't just this thingthat affected, was a
differentiator for them intheir, their market, but rather
we now all have this thing tocompare against our entire life,
(28:16):
you know, like, and so Amazontwo day delivery, um, makes me
impatient in other areas of mylife.
Dominic Piscopo (28:24):
No, that's so true,
KC Brothers (28:26):
right?
But you think about bringingyour firm into 2024, even though
you may have an exit strategy,how instantly there, there will
always be pains with changealways.
Dominic Piscopo (28:38):
Yeah.
KC Brothers (28:38):
Um, but you worked through them and you get to the
other side of, you know, beingmore efficient and you elevate
the morale in your firm and, andwho knows, maybe Yeah, maybe
your exit is way better oracquisition, whatever the
situation is, but you've alsothen contributed to a better,
(29:00):
um, workplace, which I think isjust a good place to end on in
your career to feel so satisfiedthat you'd built this thing and
ended on a high note.
Dominic Piscopo (29:12):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I love having conversations withpeople who are like, so
conscious of.
The experience that they'recreating for their employees and
kind of like the responsibilitythat they have to like, make
this a positive experience forthem.
Um, that can provide great livesfor them as well.
Like I find those people likewho have that type of empathy
(29:35):
will kind of go the extra milein terms of doing whatever it
takes to kind of provide that.
And I think that makes for likegreat firm leaders.
Right.
So.
(29:56):
Oh, I think one of us froze fora sec.
Yeah.
KC Brothers (29:58):
I missed a little bit of what you said.
Um, uh, but yeah, I feel likewe're just going to see more
humanization hopefully.
Right.
Dominic Piscopo (30:11):
Fingers crossed.
KC Brothers (30:12):
Only has a better, only has a bigger, better,
bigger impact on the industry atlarge.
But Dominic, thank you so much.
What a great conversation.
Thank you again, Dominic.
Dominic Piscopo (30:31):
Yeah.
Thanks for having me on.
I really appreciate it.
Thanks.
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