April 16, 2025 • 26 mins
Jeremy Wortman, an organizational psychologist, emphasizes the importance of emotional intelligence in the workplace, focusing on how it drives employee engagement and business growth. The conversation also offers practical strategies for improving leadership and organizational effectiveness within a firm.
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KC Brothers (00:06):
Hi, I am KC Brothers, the host of Canopy
Practice Success, and I am herewith Jeremy Wertmann today.
How are you doing?
Jeremy Wortman (00:14):
Good.
How are you?
KC Brothers (00:16):
Good.
Excellent.
I'm ready.
I'm ready to dive in because Ihave not spoken to anyone like
you on this podcast.
Jeremy Wortman (00:22):
All right.
Hopefully that's a good thing.
KC Brothers (00:25):
Yes.
How about you give our listenersa quick background on yourself?
Jeremy Wortman (00:28):
All right.
So, uh, currently I'm a, uh, aconsultant to the accounting
profession.
98 percent of my clients are
KC Brothers (00:34):
a typical one because we do have lots of
consultants that we have talkedto that talk about operations
and accounting and you are notan accountant.
Jeremy Wortman (00:42):
No, I am not.
I'm an organizationalpsychologist.
KC Brothers (00:45):
Yes.
A very different background.
Yeah.
Jeremy Wortman (00:48):
So, um, I consult with accounting firms,
state societies, um, And Iactually serendipitously got
involved with the accountingprofession during my
dissertation years where Icreated a workshop around
ethical decision making inbusiness.
Um, and that's right after allthose iconic corporate meltdowns
that required CPAs to get ethicstraining.
(01:11):
Um, so I, I presented at anaccounting related conference.
And it took off like wildfirefrom there.
That's when I was in corporateAmerica, working at TD
Ameritrade.
Um, and I would take vacationdays while I was there to go
speak at these conferences.
And as I kept speaking at theseconferences, I was like,
accountants are cool.
They are really fun people to bearound.
And so as I continued to workwith them, I'm like.
(01:33):
Not only do they need ethicstraining, they need leadership
training as they build thesebusinesses.
And then, as I kept working withthem, I'm like, now that they're
building even bigger businesses,they need talent management
strategies.
And that's when the starsaligned that I decided to go out
on my own.
Had a great thing going to T.
D.
But I'm very entrepreneurialspirited.
So we're not on my own and havebeen doing that ever since I
teach in open enrollmentleadership development programs.
(01:56):
I have my own leadershipdevelopment program.
I speak at tons of conferencesand That is what has gotten me
to my client base.
KC Brothers (02:04):
I love it.
And you've been doing this, andwe were chatting before this,
since 2012 officially.
Jeremy Wortman (02:10):
Yeah.
As
KC Brothers (02:11):
a side hustle.
Jeremy Wortman (02:13):
Yeah.
I love that.
A little bit
KC Brothers (02:14):
more.
Jeremy Wortman (02:15):
Right, right.
KC Brothers (02:17):
I just love that you took vacation days to do
this.
That's fun.
That energizing to you.
It's so fun.
Jeremy Wortman (02:23):
Yeah, that's how big of a nerd I am.
I love talking about this stuff.
I love working with thispopulation because they're data
driven folks.
And that's the approach I takewith all of my content
development and training iseverything's based on evidence.
Everything's grounded inresearch.
It's not glorified.
Jeremy's glorified opinion.
It's not pop psychology.
And so when you can connect datato this kind of subjective
(02:46):
field, if you will.
um, human behavior in thactually really gravitate are
some
KC Brothers (02:52):
of the biggest d reference often?
Jeremy Wortman (02:58):
So I'm a of personality in the wor one.
Um, a lot of people over time.
It doesn't, it and enduring atabout the is a very comforting
thin Right.
Think about it.
If our brain, if our personalitywas constantly rewiring itself,
(03:18):
we would be in a constant stateof identity crisis, crisis and
chaos of who am I?
So that's one of the things I dois like, recognize how your
brain is wired and everybodyelse's.
And that helps us understandhuman behavior in the workplace.
And what that does is it helpsus to identify the diversity of
talent within a Organization.
And how do we leverage that toachieve this business strategy
(03:39):
instead of being annoyed witheach other?
So that is my most favoritething that I've been doing for
over 20 years.
Um, and people absolutely loveit.
People love learning aboutthemselves.
They love learning about eachother.
And instead of being annoyedwhen you're working with
somebody who is different thanyou, we've learned to not only
tolerate it, but learn toappreciate it.
And that just takes anorganization to a whole nother
(04:00):
level of, of teamwork andcollaboration and overall
effectiveness.
So, um, that's, that's probablymy, my, my biggest love, but I
also, you know, talentmanagement strategy in general,
culture, um, leadershipdevelopment.
So for so many differentreasons.
KC Brothers (04:17):
Yeah, let, let's dig into that first point a
little bit more because you're,you're beating a drum.
I like to beat.
I'm a big fan of one methodologyin particular, the
CliftonStrengths.
Jeremy Wortman (04:28):
Oh, I'm a Gallup, I'm a certified Gallup
strengths coach.
KC Brothers (04:31):
I want to get certified.
I love it so much.
I've read it.
It's applications in work.
My husband and I have read themarriage one.
We've read the parenting one.
It, I love the way to your pointabout like your personality
doesn't evolve.
We'd have an identity crisis.
If it did, it really did help meunderstand myself better.
(04:52):
It helps me speak to mystrengths better.
Cause I love the concept too of.
Um, strengthening your strengthsand not trying to strengthen
your weaknesses.
You are who you are.
Bring yourself to work.
And I, I've always to, as amanager, tried to consider that
when it comes to like hiring acompliment
Jeremy Wortman (05:14):
or
KC Brothers (05:16):
the situation that you have, um, Have you used this
then with teams?
Jeremy Wortman (05:21):
Oh, yeah.
I took 6, 000 people throughthat assessment at TD
Ameritrade.
Um, and like I said, mydoctorate program was actually
in partnership with Gallup.
And I actually got to learn fromDon Clifton back in the day.
No.
Yeah.
It was amazing.
You and I
KC Brothers (05:38):
have heard out for a long time here.
Oh, that's a nerve out.
Jeremy Wortman (05:40):
I love it.
KC Brothers (05:42):
Um, okay.
So, do you do that now with,with firms that you might go in
and consult and like, or what,what is your initial, when you
go in and help a firm understandtheir leadership or talent
issues, what, where do youstart?
Jeremy Wortman (05:58):
Yeah.
So usually, um, I'll do a talentmanagement audit.
So when I was in corporateAmerica and decided to go out on
my own, I was like, how do youhelp these really smart and
successful professionals?
Think more holistically andcomprehensively about the people
side of their business, butwithout overengineering it,
because there were some talentmanagement models that exist,
(06:19):
but they make my head spin whenI look at them.
So meeting the nerd that I am, Iwent out, did a bunch of
research and I came up with myown five point model.
And so I share that with leadersof organizations.
And I said, let's do an auditagainst this model for your
firm.
And then we can identify whatare the active ingredients that
we already have in place.
And let's capitalize on whatare, what are we completely
(06:40):
missing?
What do you have that might needto be, uh, you know, upgraded.
So we do that and that gives usa picture of where their human
capital is.
And we compare that to bestpractices.
And then that allows me to thencreate a recommended plan in
synthesis with their vision,mission, values, and business
strategy.
That's how they all cometogether and connect to be a
(07:01):
strategic approach to theirhuman capital.
So that's where I like to start.
Some organizations are like, youknow what, we need to staff,
staff retreat this year.
We want to focus on leadership.
You know, what do you recommend?
So based on a little bit ofneeds analysis that I can
recommend some best practicesthere, but I like to start with
a more holistic approach of, youknow, where are you at?
Where have you been?
Where do you want to go?
(07:21):
And then I can put that alltogether for them.
KC Brothers (07:24):
Yeah.
I love that.
Um, I forget if I shared this onthe podcast in some form or even
just like tiny hints of it, butI might share it in more detail
just because of the topic.
But I, I have been.
In my personal career, almost inback to back companies, where I
(07:46):
had a really poor managementsituation, and I felt Awful.
I wasn't producing the way Iproduce.
I wasn't myself.
I became more introverted andscared.
Um, this leader was, uh, veryfear based and, um, I remember
(08:08):
even in our interview that hetold me he was a natural
pessimist.
And I thought, how interestingfor you to share that.
Second, I'm a natural optimist.
I was like, okay, but I was alittle, you know, younger in my
career and didn't see it as thered flag that it was.
And anyway, fast forward to nowmy time at Canopy.
(08:28):
I'd been at Canopy eight monthsand we do these monthly
employees and yearly employeesfor different categories.
Was shocked I'd only been therehere eight months and got
acknowledged as one of theemployees of the year And I
remember talking to someone inthe lunchroom after who was
having a hard time with hermanager.
(08:50):
I was like Look, this isn'tabout you.
Management has such a hugeeffect on the way people below
them produce.
You're talking to someone who Ifelt like I was a CD player,
just a company or two ago, andyou were just here a month ago
(09:11):
when you saw them acknowledgeme.
I don't mean to say this to tootmy own horn by any means, but I
just.
Say it in terms of the impactgood management and leadership
has on its ability to get themost out of its employees
beneath them.
And that's not to say that Iworked more hours.
Yeah.
I worked there, but like whenyou are thriving and enjoying
(09:36):
your job, you can get more deepwork done.
You, you're not afraid to speakup and share concerns or ideas
or all.
I'd love your response to that.
I kind of just word vomited.
Jeremy Wortman (09:48):
Yeah, I actually had to jot some things down here
because I'm like, you hit somany nails on the head.
First of all, it's been proventime and time again.
Universally, the biggest driverof an engaged or disengaged
employee is the immediatesupervisor.
KC Brothers (10:01):
Yes.
Jeremy Wortman (10:01):
The people managers have all the power in
your organization.
And if we look at some microbehavioral economics, there is a
strong connection betweenengaged employees and engaged
customers.
Same thing with disengagedemployees that can scare off
every customer you have rightthere is your economic link
between the inside and theoutside of your business.
(10:21):
And if those are positive, so anengaged employee creates engaged
customer.
That's what drives businessgrowth.
I mean, there's a ton of scienceactually from Gallup.
On that exact topic.
And so how do you create,engage, um, employees where you
got to teach your managers, howto be leaders as you and I were
chatting about before this, youknow, most managers in the
accounting profession.
(10:43):
aren't great leaders.
And it's not because they're badpeople.
It's because they're technicalexperts.
And when you're, when you getgood at your job, you get
promoted and with promotionscomes leadership
responsibilities.
And we're asking people to docoaching, mentoring, good
performance, feedback, all thatgood stuff, but they've never
been taught how to do it.
Right.
So, and then the other part is,you know,
KC Brothers (11:03):
has it even been modeled for them in that regard?
Then?
Jeremy Wortman (11:06):
No, no, old school paradigm you and I were
talking about is butts in seats,number of hours, you know, don't
care about the coaching andnurturing.
So they've kind of beenconditioned that way, too.
So there's two things.
Going against them already.
And then the other thing thatyou talked about was kind of
culture, right?
Creating the, the buzzword rightnow is psychological safety.
(11:27):
Creating that environment wherepeople can, you know, step up
and have straightforwardconversations, voice their ideas
and opinions without the fear offeeling stupid or retaliated
against if they challengesomething.
So, I mean, you.
In that little example you gavethere, you hit three critical
aspects that we need to look atto bring out the best in people.
KC Brothers (11:51):
A amen?
That's like, I don't even knowhow to amen, other than just, I
couldn't agree more.
Jeremy Wortman (11:57):
Yeah, your personal experience brings it to
life.
KC Brothers (12:00):
Yeah.
Jeremy Wortman (12:01):
And I have, I have a leadership exercise that
I do when I teach them.
Like, I don't know, have youever been to like Barnes Noble
or your local bookstore?
KC Brothers (12:08):
Oh, of course.
Jeremy Wortman (12:09):
Have you ever gone to the self help or
leadership, leadership section?
KC Brothers (12:13):
Yeah.
Jeremy Wortman (12:14):
It's, it's huge.
KC Brothers (12:15):
It's massive.
Jeremy Wortman (12:16):
It's massive.
And there's, what I, which, whatI see is I see a lot of people
who want to get better asleaders and they do, they go to
the bookstore and they get inthere and they're like, this is
overwhelming.
Right.
It's like, there's so much stuffout here.
And I know by looking at them,like there's a lot of junk and
there's a lot of good stuff.
So you know, bless these, butanywho, I do this exercise to
show them what is the rightleadership model to follow.
(12:38):
And, um, at the very beginningof the workshop, before I even
show up, introduce anything tothem.
I'm like.
Think of your worst boss everand write down a very specific
behavior he or she did to earnthat title.
And they have a little fun withthat, some giggles.
And then I'm like, think aboutyour best boss ever.
Write down his very specificbehavior that they did to earn
that title.
I've done this with tens ofthousands of people.
(12:59):
Every single time, their worstboss behaviors all fall under
one part of this model.
Which is kind of what you, uh,um, shared in your example of
management by fear.
Right.
And then the best leaders everall fall under the four eyes of
transformational leadership.
And it's what's awesome aboutthis is it's not rocket science.
(13:20):
Um, and it sounds like commonsense, but unfortunately it's
not commonly practiced.
So it's it can be taught.
Um, we in more and more firmsare starting to learn.
We need to make that investmentin helping our middle managers.
Be better leaders, you know, alot of firms will localize their
(13:40):
leadership development trainingto partners, which they need it
to Um, but I wouldn't just keepit at that top level.
I'd say everybody in your firmhas the Potential to be a
leader.
We just need to teach you whatit is
KC Brothers (13:54):
I couldn't agree more everybody every adult
really Um, I think of even likemaslow's hierarchy of needs
right every adult as long asthese things are met Every adult
wants to produce, wants to do agood job, wants to win and
influence friends, wants to be ahighly productive person.
(14:16):
You know, those are two reallyfamous self help books.
Jeremy Wortman (14:21):
Yeah.
KC Brothers (14:21):
The test time.
Right.
But everybody does want to.
And I, I think somewherebetween.
Getting that promotion ortransition from high producing
IC to people manager.
Um, we, it's so human to getconcerned about what you're
(14:47):
doing as the manager to get themto produce.
And just, and not worrying.
What do I, how do I want to saythis?
Just trusting them.
That they are adults and theywant to produce.
So give them the things thatthey need and Watch them
(15:08):
flourish.
Jeremy Wortman (15:09):
Yeah, easier said than done.
That's for sure.
And there's a few things againstthat, you know I think some why
that might be a challenge forsome adults one is could be
their personality the the tool Iuse There are some people that
are just naturally wired that ifit's gonna be done, right?
It's gonna be done right by meand it could either be an ego
thing or there's this factorcombination We look for there's
(15:31):
just some people that are thereare naturally skeptical and that
doesn't have to be a bad Badthing, right?
That's their superpower.
If they use it correctly.
So some people have a hardertime doing that just because
they want to, they want, theyknow that they're going to do it
right.
So that's hard for them torelease.
So I coach those people verydifferently because the
accounting profession, I feelnaturally attracts high
(15:52):
achievers, high achievers.
They like to find out what'swrong and they like to fix it
because they like to be thehero.
So they, they naturally take oneverything.
And they want to make sure itgets done, so they continue to
hold on to it because of thatconditioning.
So, I haven't heard anybodydisagree with that, but you
certainly can.
(16:12):
Um, but that, I, I see that's areason why.
Partners, I think you weresaying this earlier to me.
Partners sometimes are holdingon too much to the day to day.
That's not the strategic valuethey bring to the firm anymore.
I had a, a partner inCalifornia.
I was teaching in this openenrollment leadership program.
We were all in Phoenix.
His partners from all over thecountry.
I'm not teaching them thatleadership model.
(16:34):
I told you about just a momentago about the best boss and
worst boss ever.
And he raised his hand.
He's like, Jeremy, I've got aproblem.
He goes, my associates, wheneverthey run into a challenge, they
literally won't even stop andthink about it.
They run to my office.
And I literally said this tohim.
I'm like, when they run to youroffice with that problem, what
do you do with the problem?
What do you think he said?
(16:55):
Solve
KC Brothers (16:55):
it.
Jeremy Wortman (16:56):
I solve it for him.
I go, is that's the strategicvalue you bring to your firm?
He's like, no,
KC Brothers (17:01):
you're incentivizing them to come to
you.
Jeremy Wortman (17:04):
He's not incentivizing them
KC Brothers (17:05):
to solve their own problems,
Jeremy Wortman (17:07):
right?
He literally trained them.
That if they hit a problem torun to him, they didn't even
think about it.
And so once we got him in theright mindset up, that's not
your strategic value.
You need to empower blah, blah,blah, all that stuff.
Um, we came up with amethodology.
It's called the toll booth onhow he could, because his brain
was wired to be a peoplepleaser.
(17:28):
So for him to say no to somebodywas super hard.
So we, we helped coach aroundthat.
But basically we got him tothink about his job is to grow
and develop people.
And supervisor weren't gettingout, not doing the work.
So those are a couple of reasonswhy I think higher level
managers, partners have a hardtime.
(17:49):
Delegating.
KC Brothers (17:52):
Well, it's, um, it's, yeah, it's that trust.
It's allowing someone else totake care of things.
I think of, um, the bookmultipliers a little bit, but
then I also, I remember sittingthrough a workshop.
Um, let's see if I can do aGoogle really quick.
Um, I'm blanking on the mathterm right now, but he was
(18:14):
making this point that, okay,you can be additive,
subtractive, multiplicative, youcould be a multiplier.
Divisive, or what's theequivalent adjective of an
exponent that, that, um, but youknow, power where you're instead
(18:37):
of, or instead of two times 10,you get 20, but two to the 10th
power.
But, um, hopefully everybody'spicking up what I'm laying down,
but you get way more out of twoto the 10th, then you do two
times 10,
Jeremy Wortman (18:55):
right?
KC Brothers (18:56):
His point being, okay, how can, where do we fall
in these categories?
If we're going to use math asthese.
categories of how ourperformance lines up and when
you can be exponential, maybethat's the right verb I'm
looking for.
Um, and, and you're helping thepeople beneath you do that as
(19:17):
well.
You're getting way more out ofthe same resources.
And, and a lot of his, um,argument was that it had to do
with the relationships you havewith each other too.
Then.
It can only be multiplicative toa certain point, um, and then
you hit your ceiling and, andthen you either just stay there
(19:39):
or you have, you can't, you makethe jump into VR.
Jeremy Wortman (19:44):
I love that.
And so when you find that book,send it to me because I want, I
want to investigate that deeperbecause as I think about the
research and evidence behindthat, they're, they're
basically, I think what you'retalking about there is if
you're, if you really believein, it's the, the relationship
that drives that potential forbeing exponential, it's
emotional intelligence, right?
(20:05):
Emotional intelligence is.
Is the most critical successfactor.
It's my nerdy goal when I workwith individuals and firms, and
I literally tell this and Iwould love for you to make this
a individual and firm corecompetency.
If you could maximize everyone'spotential around these five
competencies of EQ, you would beexponential because it's all
(20:27):
about, it's, it's, it's allabout knowing yourself, self
regulating, knowing the otherperson and having effective
interactions.
It's not that hard.
Well, it is
KC Brothers (20:38):
maybe we've it is I think maybe we've teased the
listeners enough What are thefive points?
Jeremy Wortman (20:46):
All right So I think I use a triangle to
remember the five corecompetencies of EQ and to teach
it as well So at the foundationyou have self awareness This is
you knowing who you are and whoyou are not And how you impact
others.
That's a whole other level ofself awareness.
Um, the next competency then isonce you know, once you have
(21:09):
self awareness, which is knowingyour strengths, weaknesses, and
blind spots, it's selfregulation.
That is, can you channel thosestrengths and weaknesses in a
positive way?
Right?
And I've coached over 500 peoplein my career.
Emotional intelligence is thenumber one thing that I work on
with folks.
And self regulation is the mostfocused on competency.
(21:31):
So self awareness is the firstcompetency.
Self regulation is the second.
The third core competency,
KC Brothers (21:37):
I'm assuming because you're using a triangle
that these do build, they buildon top
Jeremy Wortman (21:40):
of each other.
Yep.
The third core competency isself motivation.
As I joked about earlier, it'snot hard.
It is that the research provesemotional intelligence is
developable, but it's very hard.
It causes a lot of cognitivedissonance.
So when I think of selfmotivation, it's like, why are
(22:02):
you doing this?
Like what's going to keep youmotivated to keep working on
emotional intelligence, eventhough it's so darn hard.
Right.
And so there there's exercisesthat we do to help build that
muscle.
Those first three corecompetencies of EQ are all
intrapersonal.
They're all about you.
You'll never master those, butat least you can get pretty good
(22:24):
at them.
Now we go to the fourth corecompetency, which is social
awareness.
This is your ability toaccurately understand the
emotions and the talents of thepeople you work with.
When I do my personalityworkshop with people, I do an
exercise in there thatdemonstrates we are not good at
social awareness.
What we're actually really goodat is labeling and judging
(22:46):
people using negative terms.
It's a fascinating eye-openingexercise.
So again, the fourth corecompetency is social awareness.
Can you, do you accuratelyunderstand the emotions and the
talents of the people you workwith?
Which then leads us to the fifthcore competency of social
skills.
And so the last two corecompetencies are interpersonal.
The first three corecompetencies are interpersonal.
(23:07):
So the bottom part of thepyramid is you knowing yourself
and and channeling yourselfproductively.
The second part, the last twocompetencies are accurately
understanding the other personand using all of that data.
To have a healthy interaction,which basically the last core
competency.
I love to bust conventionalmanagement wisdom And one of the
pieces I bust with everybody isthe golden rule What's the
(23:28):
golden rule say at a really highlevel?
KC Brothers (23:31):
Treat others how you want to be treated.
Jeremy Wortman (23:33):
Yeah, we should never use that when working with
each other in business because Idon't want to be treated the way
KC wants to be treated.
I want to be treated the wayJeremy wants to be treated.
That's
KC Brothers (23:41):
why we talk about the platinum rule, right?
Jeremy Wortman (23:43):
That's the rule, right?
And again, sounds like commonsense.
Not commonly practiced.
But when I take people in there,you will see the eyes just go
wide open and ah ha and it'slike You know, you're right, the
golden rule at a high morallevel, I agree with, but on a
daily interactive basis, no,that's where you use personality
talent data, like theStrengthsFighter or the tool
(24:04):
that I use to accuratelyunderstand someone else, that's
how we use it in teams, and thenwe use that data going forward
to be like, oh, okay, so this isa real life example, I'm not
detail oriented, I know a lot ofmy clients are, so when I'm
working with a client that'sdetail oriented, Even though I'm
more naturally casual andflexible and maybe a little bit
(24:27):
have a little bit more mistakesthan the average person I will
button up my work and be morefocused on details Be more
accurate when working with thosepeople because I know that
motivates them
KC Brothers (24:39):
Wow, I love it so much and I feel like we could
talk about this for forever orat least I could I'm Highly
passionate about these things asyou've already heard.
Um, Thank you, Jeremy.
Um, summarize really quick.
(24:59):
Let's go through those fivepoints again really quick.
Can I test myself?
Jeremy Wortman (25:03):
Go for it.
Love it.
KC Brothers (25:05):
Okay, self awareness, self regulation,
Jeremy Wortman (25:09):
good job,
KC Brothers (25:10):
self motivation,
Jeremy Wortman (25:12):
nice work,
KC Brothers (25:15):
social awareness,
Jeremy Wortman (25:16):
nice,
KC Brothers (25:17):
social skills,
Jeremy Wortman (25:19):
100%.
KC Brothers (25:22):
Nailed it.
Jeremy Wortman (25:23):
Nailed it.
KC Brothers (25:24):
Okay.
Um, if people want to learnmore, reach out to you.
Where do they go?
Jeremy Wortman (25:30):
Uh, you can go to my website, www.
hrdinitiatives.
com.
Um, again, www.
hrdinitiatives.
com.
Or I'm sure Google JeremyWortman.
Um.
KC Brothers (25:45):
We'll have things linked in the show notes and
other places as well.
So.
Jeremy Wortman (25:50):
Okay.
All right.
Thanks for having me.
KC Brothers (25:52):
Yeah, thank you, Jeremy.
Jeremy Wortman (25:54):
Have a good day.
Hi, I am KC Brothers, the host of Canopy
Practice Success, and I am herewith Jeremy Wertmann today.
How are you doing?
Jeremy Wortman (00:14):
Good.
How are you?
KC Brothers (00:16):
Good.
Excellent.
I'm ready.
I'm ready to dive in because Ihave not spoken to anyone like
you on this podcast.
Jeremy Wortman (00:22):
All right.
Hopefully that's a good thing.
KC Brothers (00:25):
Yes.
How about you give our listenersa quick background on yourself?
Jeremy Wortman (00:28):
All right.
So, uh, currently I'm a, uh, aconsultant to the accounting
profession.
98 percent of my clients are
KC Brothers (00:34):
a typical one because we do have lots of
consultants that we have talkedto that talk about operations
and accounting and you are notan accountant.
Jeremy Wortman (00:42):
No, I am not.
I'm an organizationalpsychologist.
KC Brothers (00:45):
Yes.
A very different background.
Yeah.
Jeremy Wortman (00:48):
So, um, I consult with accounting firms,
state societies, um, And Iactually serendipitously got
involved with the accountingprofession during my
dissertation years where Icreated a workshop around
ethical decision making inbusiness.
Um, and that's right after allthose iconic corporate meltdowns
that required CPAs to get ethicstraining.
(01:11):
Um, so I, I presented at anaccounting related conference.
And it took off like wildfirefrom there.
That's when I was in corporateAmerica, working at TD
Ameritrade.
Um, and I would take vacationdays while I was there to go
speak at these conferences.
And as I kept speaking at theseconferences, I was like,
accountants are cool.
They are really fun people to bearound.
And so as I continued to workwith them, I'm like.
(01:33):
Not only do they need ethicstraining, they need leadership
training as they build thesebusinesses.
And then, as I kept working withthem, I'm like, now that they're
building even bigger businesses,they need talent management
strategies.
And that's when the starsaligned that I decided to go out
on my own.
Had a great thing going to T.
D.
But I'm very entrepreneurialspirited.
So we're not on my own and havebeen doing that ever since I
teach in open enrollmentleadership development programs.
(01:56):
I have my own leadershipdevelopment program.
I speak at tons of conferencesand That is what has gotten me
to my client base.
KC Brothers (02:04):
I love it.
And you've been doing this, andwe were chatting before this,
since 2012 officially.
Jeremy Wortman (02:10):
Yeah.
As
KC Brothers (02:11):
a side hustle.
Jeremy Wortman (02:13):
Yeah.
I love that.
A little bit
KC Brothers (02:14):
more.
Jeremy Wortman (02:15):
Right, right.
KC Brothers (02:17):
I just love that you took vacation days to do
this.
That's fun.
That energizing to you.
It's so fun.
Jeremy Wortman (02:23):
Yeah, that's how big of a nerd I am.
I love talking about this stuff.
I love working with thispopulation because they're data
driven folks.
And that's the approach I takewith all of my content
development and training iseverything's based on evidence.
Everything's grounded inresearch.
It's not glorified.
Jeremy's glorified opinion.
It's not pop psychology.
And so when you can connect datato this kind of subjective
(02:46):
field, if you will.
um, human behavior in thactually really gravitate are
some
KC Brothers (02:52):
of the biggest d reference often?
Jeremy Wortman (02:58):
So I'm a of personality in the wor one.
Um, a lot of people over time.
It doesn't, it and enduring atabout the is a very comforting
thin Right.
Think about it.
If our brain, if our personalitywas constantly rewiring itself,
(03:18):
we would be in a constant stateof identity crisis, crisis and
chaos of who am I?
So that's one of the things I dois like, recognize how your
brain is wired and everybodyelse's.
And that helps us understandhuman behavior in the workplace.
And what that does is it helpsus to identify the diversity of
talent within a Organization.
And how do we leverage that toachieve this business strategy
(03:39):
instead of being annoyed witheach other?
So that is my most favoritething that I've been doing for
over 20 years.
Um, and people absolutely loveit.
People love learning aboutthemselves.
They love learning about eachother.
And instead of being annoyedwhen you're working with
somebody who is different thanyou, we've learned to not only
tolerate it, but learn toappreciate it.
And that just takes anorganization to a whole nother
(04:00):
level of, of teamwork andcollaboration and overall
effectiveness.
So, um, that's, that's probablymy, my, my biggest love, but I
also, you know, talentmanagement strategy in general,
culture, um, leadershipdevelopment.
So for so many differentreasons.
KC Brothers (04:17):
Yeah, let, let's dig into that first point a
little bit more because you're,you're beating a drum.
I like to beat.
I'm a big fan of one methodologyin particular, the
CliftonStrengths.
Jeremy Wortman (04:28):
Oh, I'm a Gallup, I'm a certified Gallup
strengths coach.
KC Brothers (04:31):
I want to get certified.
I love it so much.
I've read it.
It's applications in work.
My husband and I have read themarriage one.
We've read the parenting one.
It, I love the way to your pointabout like your personality
doesn't evolve.
We'd have an identity crisis.
If it did, it really did help meunderstand myself better.
(04:52):
It helps me speak to mystrengths better.
Cause I love the concept too of.
Um, strengthening your strengthsand not trying to strengthen
your weaknesses.
You are who you are.
Bring yourself to work.
And I, I've always to, as amanager, tried to consider that
when it comes to like hiring acompliment
Jeremy Wortman (05:14):
or
KC Brothers (05:16):
the situation that you have, um, Have you used this
then with teams?
Jeremy Wortman (05:21):
Oh, yeah.
I took 6, 000 people throughthat assessment at TD
Ameritrade.
Um, and like I said, mydoctorate program was actually
in partnership with Gallup.
And I actually got to learn fromDon Clifton back in the day.
No.
Yeah.
It was amazing.
You and I
KC Brothers (05:38):
have heard out for a long time here.
Oh, that's a nerve out.
Jeremy Wortman (05:40):
I love it.
KC Brothers (05:42):
Um, okay.
So, do you do that now with,with firms that you might go in
and consult and like, or what,what is your initial, when you
go in and help a firm understandtheir leadership or talent
issues, what, where do youstart?
Jeremy Wortman (05:58):
Yeah.
So usually, um, I'll do a talentmanagement audit.
So when I was in corporateAmerica and decided to go out on
my own, I was like, how do youhelp these really smart and
successful professionals?
Think more holistically andcomprehensively about the people
side of their business, butwithout overengineering it,
because there were some talentmanagement models that exist,
(06:19):
but they make my head spin whenI look at them.
So meeting the nerd that I am, Iwent out, did a bunch of
research and I came up with myown five point model.
And so I share that with leadersof organizations.
And I said, let's do an auditagainst this model for your
firm.
And then we can identify whatare the active ingredients that
we already have in place.
And let's capitalize on whatare, what are we completely
(06:40):
missing?
What do you have that might needto be, uh, you know, upgraded.
So we do that and that gives usa picture of where their human
capital is.
And we compare that to bestpractices.
And then that allows me to thencreate a recommended plan in
synthesis with their vision,mission, values, and business
strategy.
That's how they all cometogether and connect to be a
(07:01):
strategic approach to theirhuman capital.
So that's where I like to start.
Some organizations are like, youknow what, we need to staff,
staff retreat this year.
We want to focus on leadership.
You know, what do you recommend?
So based on a little bit ofneeds analysis that I can
recommend some best practicesthere, but I like to start with
a more holistic approach of, youknow, where are you at?
Where have you been?
Where do you want to go?
(07:21):
And then I can put that alltogether for them.
KC Brothers (07:24):
Yeah.
I love that.
Um, I forget if I shared this onthe podcast in some form or even
just like tiny hints of it, butI might share it in more detail
just because of the topic.
But I, I have been.
In my personal career, almost inback to back companies, where I
(07:46):
had a really poor managementsituation, and I felt Awful.
I wasn't producing the way Iproduce.
I wasn't myself.
I became more introverted andscared.
Um, this leader was, uh, veryfear based and, um, I remember
(08:08):
even in our interview that hetold me he was a natural
pessimist.
And I thought, how interestingfor you to share that.
Second, I'm a natural optimist.
I was like, okay, but I was alittle, you know, younger in my
career and didn't see it as thered flag that it was.
And anyway, fast forward to nowmy time at Canopy.
(08:28):
I'd been at Canopy eight monthsand we do these monthly
employees and yearly employeesfor different categories.
Was shocked I'd only been therehere eight months and got
acknowledged as one of theemployees of the year And I
remember talking to someone inthe lunchroom after who was
having a hard time with hermanager.
(08:50):
I was like Look, this isn'tabout you.
Management has such a hugeeffect on the way people below
them produce.
You're talking to someone who Ifelt like I was a CD player,
just a company or two ago, andyou were just here a month ago
(09:11):
when you saw them acknowledgeme.
I don't mean to say this to tootmy own horn by any means, but I
just.
Say it in terms of the impactgood management and leadership
has on its ability to get themost out of its employees
beneath them.
And that's not to say that Iworked more hours.
Yeah.
I worked there, but like whenyou are thriving and enjoying
(09:36):
your job, you can get more deepwork done.
You, you're not afraid to speakup and share concerns or ideas
or all.
I'd love your response to that.
I kind of just word vomited.
Jeremy Wortman (09:48):
Yeah, I actually had to jot some things down here
because I'm like, you hit somany nails on the head.
First of all, it's been proventime and time again.
Universally, the biggest driverof an engaged or disengaged
employee is the immediatesupervisor.
KC Brothers (10:01):
Yes.
Jeremy Wortman (10:01):
The people managers have all the power in
your organization.
And if we look at some microbehavioral economics, there is a
strong connection betweenengaged employees and engaged
customers.
Same thing with disengagedemployees that can scare off
every customer you have rightthere is your economic link
between the inside and theoutside of your business.
(10:21):
And if those are positive, so anengaged employee creates engaged
customer.
That's what drives businessgrowth.
I mean, there's a ton of scienceactually from Gallup.
On that exact topic.
And so how do you create,engage, um, employees where you
got to teach your managers, howto be leaders as you and I were
chatting about before this, youknow, most managers in the
accounting profession.
(10:43):
aren't great leaders.
And it's not because they're badpeople.
It's because they're technicalexperts.
And when you're, when you getgood at your job, you get
promoted and with promotionscomes leadership
responsibilities.
And we're asking people to docoaching, mentoring, good
performance, feedback, all thatgood stuff, but they've never
been taught how to do it.
Right.
So, and then the other part is,you know,
KC Brothers (11:03):
has it even been modeled for them in that regard?
Then?
Jeremy Wortman (11:06):
No, no, old school paradigm you and I were
talking about is butts in seats,number of hours, you know, don't
care about the coaching andnurturing.
So they've kind of beenconditioned that way, too.
So there's two things.
Going against them already.
And then the other thing thatyou talked about was kind of
culture, right?
Creating the, the buzzword rightnow is psychological safety.
(11:27):
Creating that environment wherepeople can, you know, step up
and have straightforwardconversations, voice their ideas
and opinions without the fear offeeling stupid or retaliated
against if they challengesomething.
So, I mean, you.
In that little example you gavethere, you hit three critical
aspects that we need to look atto bring out the best in people.
KC Brothers (11:51):
A amen?
That's like, I don't even knowhow to amen, other than just, I
couldn't agree more.
Jeremy Wortman (11:57):
Yeah, your personal experience brings it to
life.
KC Brothers (12:00):
Yeah.
Jeremy Wortman (12:01):
And I have, I have a leadership exercise that
I do when I teach them.
Like, I don't know, have youever been to like Barnes Noble
or your local bookstore?
KC Brothers (12:08):
Oh, of course.
Jeremy Wortman (12:09):
Have you ever gone to the self help or
leadership, leadership section?
KC Brothers (12:13):
Yeah.
Jeremy Wortman (12:14):
It's, it's huge.
KC Brothers (12:15):
It's massive.
Jeremy Wortman (12:16):
It's massive.
And there's, what I, which, whatI see is I see a lot of people
who want to get better asleaders and they do, they go to
the bookstore and they get inthere and they're like, this is
overwhelming.
Right.
It's like, there's so much stuffout here.
And I know by looking at them,like there's a lot of junk and
there's a lot of good stuff.
So you know, bless these, butanywho, I do this exercise to
show them what is the rightleadership model to follow.
(12:38):
And, um, at the very beginningof the workshop, before I even
show up, introduce anything tothem.
I'm like.
Think of your worst boss everand write down a very specific
behavior he or she did to earnthat title.
And they have a little fun withthat, some giggles.
And then I'm like, think aboutyour best boss ever.
Write down his very specificbehavior that they did to earn
that title.
I've done this with tens ofthousands of people.
(12:59):
Every single time, their worstboss behaviors all fall under
one part of this model.
Which is kind of what you, uh,um, shared in your example of
management by fear.
Right.
And then the best leaders everall fall under the four eyes of
transformational leadership.
And it's what's awesome aboutthis is it's not rocket science.
(13:20):
Um, and it sounds like commonsense, but unfortunately it's
not commonly practiced.
So it's it can be taught.
Um, we in more and more firmsare starting to learn.
We need to make that investmentin helping our middle managers.
Be better leaders, you know, alot of firms will localize their
(13:40):
leadership development trainingto partners, which they need it
to Um, but I wouldn't just keepit at that top level.
I'd say everybody in your firmhas the Potential to be a
leader.
We just need to teach you whatit is
KC Brothers (13:54):
I couldn't agree more everybody every adult
really Um, I think of even likemaslow's hierarchy of needs
right every adult as long asthese things are met Every adult
wants to produce, wants to do agood job, wants to win and
influence friends, wants to be ahighly productive person.
(14:16):
You know, those are two reallyfamous self help books.
Jeremy Wortman (14:21):
Yeah.
KC Brothers (14:21):
The test time.
Right.
But everybody does want to.
And I, I think somewherebetween.
Getting that promotion ortransition from high producing
IC to people manager.
Um, we, it's so human to getconcerned about what you're
(14:47):
doing as the manager to get themto produce.
And just, and not worrying.
What do I, how do I want to saythis?
Just trusting them.
That they are adults and theywant to produce.
So give them the things thatthey need and Watch them
(15:08):
flourish.
Jeremy Wortman (15:09):
Yeah, easier said than done.
That's for sure.
And there's a few things againstthat, you know I think some why
that might be a challenge forsome adults one is could be
their personality the the tool Iuse There are some people that
are just naturally wired that ifit's gonna be done, right?
It's gonna be done right by meand it could either be an ego
thing or there's this factorcombination We look for there's
(15:31):
just some people that are thereare naturally skeptical and that
doesn't have to be a bad Badthing, right?
That's their superpower.
If they use it correctly.
So some people have a hardertime doing that just because
they want to, they want, theyknow that they're going to do it
right.
So that's hard for them torelease.
So I coach those people verydifferently because the
accounting profession, I feelnaturally attracts high
(15:52):
achievers, high achievers.
They like to find out what'swrong and they like to fix it
because they like to be thehero.
So they, they naturally take oneverything.
And they want to make sure itgets done, so they continue to
hold on to it because of thatconditioning.
So, I haven't heard anybodydisagree with that, but you
certainly can.
(16:12):
Um, but that, I, I see that's areason why.
Partners, I think you weresaying this earlier to me.
Partners sometimes are holdingon too much to the day to day.
That's not the strategic valuethey bring to the firm anymore.
I had a, a partner inCalifornia.
I was teaching in this openenrollment leadership program.
We were all in Phoenix.
His partners from all over thecountry.
I'm not teaching them thatleadership model.
(16:34):
I told you about just a momentago about the best boss and
worst boss ever.
And he raised his hand.
He's like, Jeremy, I've got aproblem.
He goes, my associates, wheneverthey run into a challenge, they
literally won't even stop andthink about it.
They run to my office.
And I literally said this tohim.
I'm like, when they run to youroffice with that problem, what
do you do with the problem?
What do you think he said?
(16:55):
Solve
KC Brothers (16:55):
it.
Jeremy Wortman (16:56):
I solve it for him.
I go, is that's the strategicvalue you bring to your firm?
He's like, no,
KC Brothers (17:01):
you're incentivizing them to come to
you.
Jeremy Wortman (17:04):
He's not incentivizing them
KC Brothers (17:05):
to solve their own problems,
Jeremy Wortman (17:07):
right?
He literally trained them.
That if they hit a problem torun to him, they didn't even
think about it.
And so once we got him in theright mindset up, that's not
your strategic value.
You need to empower blah, blah,blah, all that stuff.
Um, we came up with amethodology.
It's called the toll booth onhow he could, because his brain
was wired to be a peoplepleaser.
(17:28):
So for him to say no to somebodywas super hard.
So we, we helped coach aroundthat.
But basically we got him tothink about his job is to grow
and develop people.
And supervisor weren't gettingout, not doing the work.
So those are a couple of reasonswhy I think higher level
managers, partners have a hardtime.
(17:49):
Delegating.
KC Brothers (17:52):
Well, it's, um, it's, yeah, it's that trust.
It's allowing someone else totake care of things.
I think of, um, the bookmultipliers a little bit, but
then I also, I remember sittingthrough a workshop.
Um, let's see if I can do aGoogle really quick.
Um, I'm blanking on the mathterm right now, but he was
(18:14):
making this point that, okay,you can be additive,
subtractive, multiplicative, youcould be a multiplier.
Divisive, or what's theequivalent adjective of an
exponent that, that, um, but youknow, power where you're instead
(18:37):
of, or instead of two times 10,you get 20, but two to the 10th
power.
But, um, hopefully everybody'spicking up what I'm laying down,
but you get way more out of twoto the 10th, then you do two
times 10,
Jeremy Wortman (18:55):
right?
KC Brothers (18:56):
His point being, okay, how can, where do we fall
in these categories?
If we're going to use math asthese.
categories of how ourperformance lines up and when
you can be exponential, maybethat's the right verb I'm
looking for.
Um, and, and you're helping thepeople beneath you do that as
(19:17):
well.
You're getting way more out ofthe same resources.
And, and a lot of his, um,argument was that it had to do
with the relationships you havewith each other too.
Then.
It can only be multiplicative toa certain point, um, and then
you hit your ceiling and, andthen you either just stay there
(19:39):
or you have, you can't, you makethe jump into VR.
Jeremy Wortman (19:44):
I love that.
And so when you find that book,send it to me because I want, I
want to investigate that deeperbecause as I think about the
research and evidence behindthat, they're, they're
basically, I think what you'retalking about there is if
you're, if you really believein, it's the, the relationship
that drives that potential forbeing exponential, it's
emotional intelligence, right?
(20:05):
Emotional intelligence is.
Is the most critical successfactor.
It's my nerdy goal when I workwith individuals and firms, and
I literally tell this and Iwould love for you to make this
a individual and firm corecompetency.
If you could maximize everyone'spotential around these five
competencies of EQ, you would beexponential because it's all
(20:27):
about, it's, it's, it's allabout knowing yourself, self
regulating, knowing the otherperson and having effective
interactions.
It's not that hard.
Well, it is
KC Brothers (20:38):
maybe we've it is I think maybe we've teased the
listeners enough What are thefive points?
Jeremy Wortman (20:46):
All right So I think I use a triangle to
remember the five corecompetencies of EQ and to teach
it as well So at the foundationyou have self awareness This is
you knowing who you are and whoyou are not And how you impact
others.
That's a whole other level ofself awareness.
Um, the next competency then isonce you know, once you have
(21:09):
self awareness, which is knowingyour strengths, weaknesses, and
blind spots, it's selfregulation.
That is, can you channel thosestrengths and weaknesses in a
positive way?
Right?
And I've coached over 500 peoplein my career.
Emotional intelligence is thenumber one thing that I work on
with folks.
And self regulation is the mostfocused on competency.
(21:31):
So self awareness is the firstcompetency.
Self regulation is the second.
The third core competency,
KC Brothers (21:37):
I'm assuming because you're using a triangle
that these do build, they buildon top
Jeremy Wortman (21:40):
of each other.
Yep.
The third core competency isself motivation.
As I joked about earlier, it'snot hard.
It is that the research provesemotional intelligence is
developable, but it's very hard.
It causes a lot of cognitivedissonance.
So when I think of selfmotivation, it's like, why are
(22:02):
you doing this?
Like what's going to keep youmotivated to keep working on
emotional intelligence, eventhough it's so darn hard.
Right.
And so there there's exercisesthat we do to help build that
muscle.
Those first three corecompetencies of EQ are all
intrapersonal.
They're all about you.
You'll never master those, butat least you can get pretty good
(22:24):
at them.
Now we go to the fourth corecompetency, which is social
awareness.
This is your ability toaccurately understand the
emotions and the talents of thepeople you work with.
When I do my personalityworkshop with people, I do an
exercise in there thatdemonstrates we are not good at
social awareness.
What we're actually really goodat is labeling and judging
(22:46):
people using negative terms.
It's a fascinating eye-openingexercise.
So again, the fourth corecompetency is social awareness.
Can you, do you accuratelyunderstand the emotions and the
talents of the people you workwith?
Which then leads us to the fifthcore competency of social
skills.
And so the last two corecompetencies are interpersonal.
The first three corecompetencies are interpersonal.
(23:07):
So the bottom part of thepyramid is you knowing yourself
and and channeling yourselfproductively.
The second part, the last twocompetencies are accurately
understanding the other personand using all of that data.
To have a healthy interaction,which basically the last core
competency.
I love to bust conventionalmanagement wisdom And one of the
pieces I bust with everybody isthe golden rule What's the
(23:28):
golden rule say at a really highlevel?
KC Brothers (23:31):
Treat others how you want to be treated.
Jeremy Wortman (23:33):
Yeah, we should never use that when working with
each other in business because Idon't want to be treated the way
KC wants to be treated.
I want to be treated the wayJeremy wants to be treated.
That's
KC Brothers (23:41):
why we talk about the platinum rule, right?
Jeremy Wortman (23:43):
That's the rule, right?
And again, sounds like commonsense.
Not commonly practiced.
But when I take people in there,you will see the eyes just go
wide open and ah ha and it'slike You know, you're right, the
golden rule at a high morallevel, I agree with, but on a
daily interactive basis, no,that's where you use personality
talent data, like theStrengthsFighter or the tool
(24:04):
that I use to accuratelyunderstand someone else, that's
how we use it in teams, and thenwe use that data going forward
to be like, oh, okay, so this isa real life example, I'm not
detail oriented, I know a lot ofmy clients are, so when I'm
working with a client that'sdetail oriented, Even though I'm
more naturally casual andflexible and maybe a little bit
(24:27):
have a little bit more mistakesthan the average person I will
button up my work and be morefocused on details Be more
accurate when working with thosepeople because I know that
motivates them
KC Brothers (24:39):
Wow, I love it so much and I feel like we could
talk about this for forever orat least I could I'm Highly
passionate about these things asyou've already heard.
Um, Thank you, Jeremy.
Um, summarize really quick.
(24:59):
Let's go through those fivepoints again really quick.
Can I test myself?
Jeremy Wortman (25:03):
Go for it.
Love it.
KC Brothers (25:05):
Okay, self awareness, self regulation,
Jeremy Wortman (25:09):
good job,
KC Brothers (25:10):
self motivation,
Jeremy Wortman (25:12):
nice work,
KC Brothers (25:15):
social awareness,
Jeremy Wortman (25:16):
nice,
KC Brothers (25:17):
social skills,
Jeremy Wortman (25:19):
100%.
KC Brothers (25:22):
Nailed it.
Jeremy Wortman (25:23):
Nailed it.
KC Brothers (25:24):
Okay.
Um, if people want to learnmore, reach out to you.
Where do they go?
Jeremy Wortman (25:30):
Uh, you can go to my website, www.
hrdinitiatives.
com.
Um, again, www.
hrdinitiatives.
com.
Or I'm sure Google JeremyWortman.
Um.
KC Brothers (25:45):
We'll have things linked in the show notes and
other places as well.
So.
Jeremy Wortman (25:50):
Okay.
All right.
Thanks for having me.
KC Brothers (25:52):
Yeah, thank you, Jeremy.
Jeremy Wortman (25:54):
Have a good day.
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