October 2, 2024 • 26 mins
In this episode of “Canopy Practice Success,”Michelle Weinstein, founder of The Abundant Accountant, shares her insights on how accounting, tax, and bookkeeping firm owners can break free from the grind of feeling undervalued and underpaid.
She discusses how shifting to a mindset of abundance and confidently charging what they’re worth can lead to a more successful and fulfilling practice. Michelle emphasizes the importance of detaching from the emotional side of selling to focus on building stronger client relationships.
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Episode Transcript
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KC Brothers (00:06):
Welcome back to another episode of Canopy
Practice Success.
I am Kasey Brothers, the host ofthe podcast, one of the hosts,
and I'm here with Michelletoday.
Michelle, will you give us aquick introduction of you and
your business and Your passionsas it pertains to accountants.
Michelle Weinstein (00:23):
Yeah.
So my name's Michelle Weinstein.
I'm the founder of the AbundantAccountant, where my mission is
to really truly end the grindwhere we as firm owners, not me
personally, but my clients feelfrustrated and stressed, really
having no control.
over how your firm's going, yourpricing, your discounting,
you're trying to get everybodyand anybody in your firm and how
(00:46):
you can put an end to that andknow exactly what to charge,
know your worth, even when youthink clients can't afford you.
And also if you have currentclients, how you can confidently
increase your fees to yourcurrent clients without the Fear
of them all leaving you.
And so here at the abundantaccountant, I have discovered
what it takes to build asuccessful accounting tax or
(01:08):
bookkeeping practice full ofclients who are totally willing
to pay you a lot more thanyou're charging now and pay you
what you're worth.
So you don't feel undervaluedand underappreciated anymore.
And how you can really detachfrom the emotional side of the
sales process.
KC Brothers (01:26):
That one,
Michelle Weinstein (01:27):
you know, like if you get rejected or a
client tells, you know, or yousend off a proposal and you get
ghosted and you never hear fromthem, how do you have a paradigm
shift that massively propels youforward?
And that's really what we dohere at the abundant accountant.
It's, um, a community where.
Firm owners do get amazingresults.
They grow their top linerevenues.
(01:48):
They're doubling and triplingtheir fees and making the sales
process the nucleus of the firmversus thinking that it's the
work that you're doing for theclients.
Cause without sales, you don'thave any clients.
So if I had
KC Brothers (02:02):
a clap track, I would play it right there,
right?
It's not, and it's not a badthing.
for a company in general to besales driven.
Um, right.
I mean, that's what makes, whatbrings the money in, what keeps
the business alive and it's, youcan have the passion for
(02:23):
accounting for the work and, andbe lacking that.
And.
Miss it and fail and wonder why.
And it's like, it's not areflection on you as an
accountant is the thing.
Michelle Weinstein (02:36):
Yeah.
KC Brothers (02:36):
Um, but it's like, man, I feel like on so many
episodes, I've talked aboutentrepreneurs in general and how
entrepreneurs just are notalways well equipped to
understand all of the businessthings that they're also going
to have to do in addition to theskillset that they have.
Michelle Weinstein (02:55):
Yeah.
And I like to tell firm ownersall the time, like.
And entrepreneurs in general,like you signed up for a 24
seven sales career.
I know you didn't think you did,but if you didn't want that, you
would just, you know, be in anine to five job.
You wouldn't start your ownbusiness.
You wouldn't be required to doany sales.
You wouldn't be required to domarketing and get the leads.
(03:15):
And then the sales piece isconverting the leads and turning
that into top line revenue.
If, if you don't want to beresponsible for that, then it's
better off just to, you know, bein a job or have to be partner
in a firm because the peoplebringing in the work, that's a
sales related activity.
(03:37):
Even though I think most peoplejust don't like the word sales.
They think it's a bad fourletter word, you know, S A L E
and it has multiple definitions,but it's the most important part
of having a successful practiceand having abundance in your
life.
KC Brothers (03:54):
Yeah.
Michelle Weinstein (03:54):
Um, where you don't have to feel
constantly stressed orfrustrated and you can have full
control over who you work with,but really also.
Knowing how much you can reallycharge each client, even when
you think they can't afford it.
And all of that is sales.
KC Brothers (04:12):
Oh man.
I, so I'm a daughter of anentrepreneur and I can't tell
you how much I even talked toher about things like this.
Like she's not in accounting atall, but she struggles with so
many of the same concepts.
She's really good.
She's got the, like, she talksabout her business all the time.
Right.
So in terms of you saying likeyou're in a sales position 24
(04:33):
seven, that is not where mymother struggles at all.
And I think in that regard, ifyou do struggle with that, like,
It can be a natural thing.
Just,
Michelle Weinstein (04:44):
yeah.
KC Brothers (04:45):
And it, and it doesn't have to be to your
point.
Like maybe we try and debunkthis four letter word of sale.
It's not you pushing anything onanyone.
It's you giving them knowledgeto then make a decision they
either need to make or don'tmake, you
Michelle Weinstein (05:03):
know?
Well, and I think taking it onestep further, they're going to
make a decision that they feelgood about.
So you're ultimately just theguide.
Yeah.
And when you can become reallygood at.
sales.
It's really just aboutidentifying someone's challenge
or problem and really being ableto be a good doctor.
If you think of the bestsurgeons in the world, they're
(05:24):
the best salespeople.
You're paying hundreds ofthousands of dollars for
surgeries that most time youneed.
But the way they have theconversation with you is they're
asking you a lot of open endedquestions.
Yeah.
And that's how you can not getparalyzed about the sales call.
I think so many firm owners I'veworked with and I talked to,
(05:45):
they get paralyzed about thethought of the upcoming sales
call or worried you're going toget like freeze up and then the
prospects take control.
But you know, there's a systemto it and you can have full
control and you can also Be inthe driver's seat without being
pushy, without being a nag and,and without having to convince
(06:08):
somebody, you know, I hear a lotof clients.
Well, Michelle, how do Iconvince them?
I'm like, well, that's whatexactly what you don't do.
You don't want to convinceanyone.
And, you know, it's, I think theunfortunate part is that there's
so many firm owners that justdon't have a plan, you know,
your mind goes blank.
You let prospects steer theconversation instead of you
(06:29):
guiding it.
So if you don't have a plan andyou don't, you know, you shoot
from the hip and you go to asales meeting without a plan,
then yeah, you probably soundlike you're convincing or you
don't feel confident.
And then how do you guide thatclient into you're the best firm
owner for them?
You don't.
KC Brothers (06:49):
Yeah.
I mean, maybe just as you'retalking, so I, in my role, I,
Enable our sales organization alot.
And I talked to them a lot aboutconsulting and solution selling
and man, if you need to getyourself up and out of that, um,
the negative connotations withthe four letter word, think
(07:10):
about it as a consulting call.
You are an expert that has theseskills that said individual or
organization wants to tap into,or at least assess if they need
and see if you're a right fit.
Just consult.
These open ended questions areso important.
Michelle Weinstein (07:29):
Yeah, and I think when you say the word
consult, one other thing youwant to make sure that we don't
do in a sales meeting isSometimes when you say, well,
I'm consulting, you're actuallysolving someone's problem.
So if you're doing free work,you're giving away answers for
free tip.
That's not the consulting thatyou're talking about.
(07:51):
We want to be really sure thatwe, we demonstrate our knowledge
by asking really good questions.
Without actually giving away ananswer or answering a specific
question because they haven'tpaid you yet.
KC Brothers (08:08):
Yeah.
In this regard, I'm so glad youcalled that out.
Maybe, and maybe I actually callit consultative sale selling.
So I still use the word sales.
Michelle Weinstein (08:17):
Yes.
Um,
KC Brothers (08:18):
but, um, it's, it's information gathering and it's
interesting because I do feellike from what I hear from our
sales reps that.
Accountants can have a hard timewhen they try to do that to
them.
It's like, no, I just want totell you what I just show me
what you have.
(08:38):
Just show me what you have.
It's like, no, I want to hearyour pains.
I want to understand what yourfirm situation is.
And so it's funny that you'resaying that they have a hard
time doing this because it alsoseems that maybe some people
have a hard time being on thereceiving end of it as well.
I think
Michelle Weinstein (08:57):
it's hard to be on the receiving end and to
ask these questions because Iwould say Most accounting tax
and bookkeeping firm owners thatI've worked with You know Not
only do they crumble when thethought of a sales call comes
around and we worry that we'regoing to go blank Or that we're
going to come across pushy theproblem is that Sometimes you
(09:21):
show up to these meetings or thesales call and you're, you have
imposter syndrome, right?
Like you're not really goodenough yet, or maybe you're just
starting or you don't have aniche.
So how could you be the bestperson for them?
Or like you're pretending to bethe expert.
So I think it even goes one stepfurther where you have to have
(09:44):
that certainty before you evermeet with a client, you know,
otherwise.
Why put yourself through that?
You have to first know thatyou're capable of doing the
books, the taxes, the planning,the fractional CFO work, the
accounting, whatever it is thatyou're doing for the client and
that you're amazing at what youdo, because if you don't have
(10:06):
that certainty, um, Casey, whatI've teach and preach all the
time is people by clarity,certainty, and confidence.
If you don't come across any ofthose.
People will not want to engageyou in your firm.
You have to be confident in thework that you do.
And you have to be certain thatyou are the best person for
(10:29):
them.
KC Brothers (10:30):
Yeah.
And to that point, you kind ofmentioned this already.
Um, and not to say that this isa must, but I highly recommend
this.
And I've, I'm assuming you dotoo, cause you dropped the word,
but having, A niche and knowinga target, right?
Instead of casting a net wide,this might be a bad metaphor and
(10:54):
PETA might come after me.
And I don't know PETA approvedversion, uh, like shooting fish
in the barrel.
Right?
Like, you know, who you're goingafter.
And, and in that sense too, whenyou've made those.
Um, characteristics known toyourself.
I think that helps yourconfidence show up more
(11:16):
regardless of how confident youmight be in general.
Michelle Weinstein (11:19):
It's so true.
I mean, you have, I always say,You know, really narrow down as
much as you can get yourmessaging, right?
Get your communication, right?
Understand how to sell to thatunique person because selling to
anyone else that comes your way,that is a good fit, maybe in a
different industry, but youstill want to work with them
(11:40):
will be so much easier.
Like for me, I only work andteach sales and the art of
enrollment and how toconfidently communicate your
value.
To accounting tax bookkeepingfirm owners, you know, tax
attorneys, fractional CFO.
And that's it.
I've had lawyers contact me.
(12:02):
I've had pretty much everyindustry person, you know, can
you do this for us?
And I'm like, no, I only workwith this niche.
And so when people come to me.
Saying, and this happenedliterally just last week.
Oh, Michelle, I'm talking, youknow, to five other sales
companies, trainers, andcoaches.
(12:22):
And I said, great, what's theirtrack record working with
accounting tax and bookkeepingfirm owners that, you know,
might offer tax planningadvisory, fractional CFO type
work.
And they're like, oh, well,they're just general.
And I said, great.
So you can go learn from ageneralist or someone like me
who literally can sell tax plansand monthly bookkeeping myself
(12:43):
alongside a CPA or an EA or, youknow, I know the ins and outs of
your firm.
I know everything that you'rechallenged with.
And I can sell everything.
So with confidence andcertainty, which comes across,
that person can make a decision.
And then I get to say, well, doI even want to work with someone
(13:05):
who's even entertaining coachingand sales from someone who's
just a generalist that workswith all sorts of big companies?
No, I probably, that's notprobably a good client for me.
So you're able to really niche,even smaller when you get really
clear on who do you want to workwith and who do you not want to
work with.
And to be honest with thatperson, I wish them nothing but
(13:27):
the best.
I said, I hope you, you findwhat you're looking for.
It doesn't even sound like youknow what you want.
KC Brothers (13:32):
Well, and to play on your business name, even
it's, you don't have a scarcitymindset.
You have an abundant mindset,which is game changing.
Michelle Weinstein (13:44):
Correct.
Yeah.
And, and the abundant accountantwas there for a reason.
You know, I really wanted to notonly have abundance for myself,
but for all of you who mostpeople that I meet and work with
come from a place of scarcity.
Scarcity looks like I need towork with everyone that comes
(14:05):
through my firm.
I need to take on anybody andeverybody.
I can't
KC Brothers (14:09):
fire anyone.
Michelle Weinstein (14:10):
I can't fire any clients.
I should be lucky, Michelle.
I even have clients.
I, I can't, I can't lower, Ican't increase my prices.
I'm here to help people.
I'm here to really help them.
I actually need to discount myfees.
You know what?
I'm going to work with someoneand do some free work and
discount it.
And then maybe in the future,they'll pay me more.
(14:31):
And honestly, that's just aformula for a disaster because
that's how I'm able to help.
So many firms turn it around.
And really all it is is shiftingour mindset and having a little
bit of success on everymilestone.
And then that's how we takecontrol back of our firm.
That's how we have conversationswith ease and confidence, and
(14:54):
that's how we can stop secondguessing our pricing.
Because a lot of times you'relike.
Coming in saying, okay, I know Iwant to do bookkeeping at 900 a
month for this client.
And then you're like, Oh no,I'll do it for two 50 because I
really need the client and Ireally need to pay my bills and
I have a staff to pay.
So I better just do that.
So that's really what we do herebecause we stop the trading time
(15:19):
for dollars, you know, andthat's how we start growing a
firm on our terms.
Yeah.
Versus on your client's terms oron the terms of when's your next
bills need to get paid or when'syour next payroll or any of
those because that's justgetting by.
That's not abundance.
KC Brothers (15:38):
Yeah.
Okay.
So a couple questions for you.
Um.
Maybe I should ask one at atime.
Um, who is this best suited for?
The, there are two versions ofthat.
So that's where my two questionscome in size, right?
Is this, is this something thatanybody and everybody, no matter
(15:59):
the size of their firm should bethinking about and, you know, no
matter,
Michelle Weinstein (16:03):
I mean, I've worked with, um, firm owners
that are a one man show.
In the beginning, you know,before you can afford to hire.
I mean, what's beautiful abouttop line revenue is the more
revenue you have coming in thedoor, the more help you can
hire.
The better you can pay your topstaff, the more bonuses you can
pay out, um, at holiday time.
(16:25):
Like there's so many benefitswhen you learn the art of
enrollment and selling and beingable to do it in a way that
feels good.
We're not being pushy.
You're not a nag and you can dothat.
And then there's also firms thathave four or five partners that
all need to get on the same pagewhen it comes to enrolling and
(16:48):
getting the engagement letterssigned and getting the clients
to pay up front, because I'veworked with firms with 100, 000
to 1.
2 million in AR.
And if you have accountsreceivable, you have a sales
problem.
So, uh, That solves that problemtoo, because you know, if you,
if you have AR and you'regrinding away 12 to 16 hour days
(17:13):
and you're working weekends justto keep up, you have a sales
problem.
So this is really for any sizefirm.
It's just the bigger the firmand the more heads that are
involved, the more everyone hasto get trained on that.
Where if you're a team of, youknow, five or six people and two
people are meeting all theclients and doing the selling,
(17:34):
then those two people need to beon the same page.
KC Brothers (17:36):
Yeah, that's fascinating that you say that if
you have an AR you have a salesproblem.
I thought about it as if youhave AR you have an operations
problem.
Michelle Weinstein (17:45):
Oh no, that's a sales problem.
KC Brothers (17:47):
Yeah.
Michelle Weinstein (17:48):
So if you have accounts receivable,
basically you've now become abank.
You should, you give peopleloans at 0 percent interest and
you're now a bill collector andwhoever is doing the billing and
the invoicing, you're paying outof your own pocket.
So it's like a loss to yourprofitability.
(18:10):
Um, yeah, it's a total waste oftime.
KC Brothers (18:14):
It really is.
It is a huge time suck.
And where I thought it was anoperations problem was like,
okay, well just collect it upfront.
And maybe that it ties intosales in that regard of like,
you're communicating, you havethe tools to pull the payments,
process the payments, whetherthat's recurring or whatever it
may be.
(18:34):
Might be a one time
Michelle Weinstein (18:35):
engagement, might be recurring, but all of
that has to be brought up front.
But a lot of people.
He's the avoid trying to collectthe money up front.
And they're like, Oh, I'll justsend you a proposal and you can
review it.
And then you hear crickets andyou get ghosted and you never
hear from the other personbecause.
(18:55):
You decided to take the reactiveor the passive approach instead
of taking the proactiveapproach, which is, Hey, Casey,
let's work together.
I'm 100 percent confident.
I can help you.
I've got the engagement letter.
Let's review it.
We're going to do your ACH foryour first payment, or you can
pay on a credit card.
(19:15):
And by the way, you know,everything's due on the 30th of
the month for the next month's,um, work.
So if you don't have thatconversation with somebody right
there in the first meeting.
You are now taking the passiveapproach and crossing your
fingers, hoping that maybethey're going to hit the sign
button and pay the invoice.
(19:35):
But every firm I've worked with,that's not really a good recipe
for success.
Um, and you can't handle theobjection.
So most of us don't want to berejected and we don't want to
hear, Oh, that why are you soexpensive or why you're so much
more than the other firm downthe street.
Or how come, um, you know, I,you're charging me this, this
(19:58):
year where in the past, it'sonly been X, all of that are
objections that you have tolearn to overcome.
And when you can overcome themwith confidence right there in
the first meeting, then set
KC Brothers (20:11):
yourself up to avoid them, right?
Because when you send
Michelle Weinstein (20:15):
a proposal or send off a quote, you are
setting yourself up to avoid theobjection.
Which if you don't hear from theclient, they are saying they
need to think about it, talk totheir business partner, talk to
their husband or wife.
You're too expensive.
Why are you charging me so much?
And all of that is becauseyou're not implementing an
(20:35):
effortless sales system in yourfirm.
KC Brothers (20:38):
Yeah.
And, and when you don't do that,then Objection handling further
down the journey is harder.
It's so much harder to explainthose same reasons when the
status quo was different.
So why just start, start offwith you're on the right foot.
(20:59):
Um, I'd be curious to know too,what, what do you recommend to
then for, um, price changes?
Do you have a, Hey, in 1 percentincrease every year.
I don't know.
No,
Michelle Weinstein (21:11):
no, no, no.
Um, that's a whole notherpodcast, Kasey, because you're
talking about it.
Yeah,
KC Brothers (21:16):
I know.
We've barely even touchedpricing strategy.
Michelle Weinstein (21:19):
I know.
No, what I recommend is that yousend out a communication via
email, snail mail, whatever thatis.
And most of the time, I mean,when, when firm owners first
start working with me, I dorecommend we go two to 300
percent more than whatever itwas before.
But depending on the firm, youknow, if they've got 750, 1040
(21:42):
clients and 150 businessentities, and then some are
monthly accounting andbookkeeping, we address all of
the different segmentsdifferently.
But there is no 1 percentincrease.
I can tell you that there aresignificant increases because
most people I want, I work with,don't want to work with so much
volume.
(22:02):
They rather have higher qualityclients and less of the Pitta
clients.
And we want to get rid of someclients.
So we're also saying, okay,well, what percent of your
volume do you want to shed?
And then from there we'refiguring out the pricing and
then from there the letter iswritten and reviewed by me And
(22:23):
then it's sent and i've neverhad anyone say michelle My price
I put too high every time fromevery client i've ever worked
with it's Michelle, I shouldhave went a little bit higher.
I'm like, yeah, I know.
It's okay.
It was terrifying to do so nextyear.
We have another opportunity.
Well, and that's really, youknow, there's a certain skill
(22:44):
set and steps that you need inorder to command premium fee.
Yes.
Yes.
So, and that's ultimately howyou achieve work life balance.
That's how you get your lifeback and your freedom back and
have that time freedom that Ithink everyone is looking for
and searching for, but it allstems in the prices and how you
(23:05):
communicate that to
KC Brothers (23:07):
Yeah.
And then the more you do that,the more you work with the same
people, same types of people,same genre, same problems, the
more of an expert you become,the more of a right you have to
do a price raise every year ortwo or however new.
Oh my gosh, we need to doanother episode just on pricing
strategy.
I would love to.
Let's do that.
I feel like I hear so much aboutit.
(23:29):
I mean, I was, um, I, I joinedCanopy and then a month or two
later went to Scaling NewHeights and the first session I
sat in was with Ron Baker.
Yep.
And, um, it was interestingbecause I'd come from tech where
of course I'm familiar with thesubscription based pricing.
(23:50):
Yep.
And here he is talking aboutthese things.
I didn't know he'd been talkingabout it for years and is It's
still beating that drum and it'sstill hard for people to adjust
and not really building there'sso much.
The transcription model
Michelle Weinstein (24:02):
that he's talking about is like a medical
concierge doctor business.
Yeah.
And that's one option.
You don't have to go Exactly.
Convert all of your clients tothat option.
But You know, there's peoplethat want that option that are
also willing to pay for it.
So again, it's figuring out howare you not going to negotiate
(24:26):
on price?
How are you not going to devalueyour worth in ways that make it,
you know, feel simple, easy, andeffortless and automatic.
And sometimes the subscriptionpricing model is a good one.
And sometimes maybe it's not,but it's about.
How do you work the hours youwant to work while having plenty
(24:47):
of time for your family And yourfree time because you can't it
all comes down to your salesprocess
KC Brothers (24:55):
Ah, yes, you, you're speaking my language,
something I feel passionateabout in my own life and another
reason why I'm like, we got toget this out there because I
know accountants talk about it.
I know they're runningthemselves thin and, oh, I hope,
I hope this lands well and helpssome people out and then maybe
(25:15):
we need to do another episodejust on pricing.
Michelle Weinstein (25:18):
Yeah, we can.
And if you want to.
Explore too.
Like if you're an accounting taxor bookkeeping firm owner and
you're listening and you wannaput an end to a lot of these
problems, yes.
We talked about today, you canschedule a one-on-one call with
me and my teamover@theabundantcall.com, and
basically what we'll do is we'llshow you how do you close more
(25:39):
clients and end the secondguessing.
How do you stop procrastinating?
And also how do you fill yourfirm up with ideal clients?
So we will have a conversationabout that on our call.
So you can book that again attheabundantcall.
com.
KC Brothers (25:56):
I mean, listen to you.
You're a wonderful saleswoman.
You just, you just reiteratedall the points that we've just
made for the past 20 minuteswith your simple invitation
right there.
I love it.
Thanks, Michelle.
Michelle Weinstein (26:08):
Yeah, no, this was lovely.
Thank you so much for having meand I look forward to our next
one.
Welcome back to another episode of Canopy
Practice Success.
I am Kasey Brothers, the host ofthe podcast, one of the hosts,
and I'm here with Michelletoday.
Michelle, will you give us aquick introduction of you and
your business and Your passionsas it pertains to accountants.
Michelle Weinstein (00:23):
Yeah.
So my name's Michelle Weinstein.
I'm the founder of the AbundantAccountant, where my mission is
to really truly end the grindwhere we as firm owners, not me
personally, but my clients feelfrustrated and stressed, really
having no control.
over how your firm's going, yourpricing, your discounting,
you're trying to get everybodyand anybody in your firm and how
(00:46):
you can put an end to that andknow exactly what to charge,
know your worth, even when youthink clients can't afford you.
And also if you have currentclients, how you can confidently
increase your fees to yourcurrent clients without the Fear
of them all leaving you.
And so here at the abundantaccountant, I have discovered
what it takes to build asuccessful accounting tax or
(01:08):
bookkeeping practice full ofclients who are totally willing
to pay you a lot more thanyou're charging now and pay you
what you're worth.
So you don't feel undervaluedand underappreciated anymore.
And how you can really detachfrom the emotional side of the
sales process.
KC Brothers (01:26):
That one,
Michelle Weinstein (01:27):
you know, like if you get rejected or a
client tells, you know, or yousend off a proposal and you get
ghosted and you never hear fromthem, how do you have a paradigm
shift that massively propels youforward?
And that's really what we dohere at the abundant accountant.
It's, um, a community where.
Firm owners do get amazingresults.
They grow their top linerevenues.
(01:48):
They're doubling and triplingtheir fees and making the sales
process the nucleus of the firmversus thinking that it's the
work that you're doing for theclients.
Cause without sales, you don'thave any clients.
So if I had
KC Brothers (02:02):
a clap track, I would play it right there,
right?
It's not, and it's not a badthing.
for a company in general to besales driven.
Um, right.
I mean, that's what makes, whatbrings the money in, what keeps
the business alive and it's, youcan have the passion for
(02:23):
accounting for the work and, andbe lacking that.
And.
Miss it and fail and wonder why.
And it's like, it's not areflection on you as an
accountant is the thing.
Michelle Weinstein (02:36):
Yeah.
KC Brothers (02:36):
Um, but it's like, man, I feel like on so many
episodes, I've talked aboutentrepreneurs in general and how
entrepreneurs just are notalways well equipped to
understand all of the businessthings that they're also going
to have to do in addition to theskillset that they have.
Michelle Weinstein (02:55):
Yeah.
And I like to tell firm ownersall the time, like.
And entrepreneurs in general,like you signed up for a 24
seven sales career.
I know you didn't think you did,but if you didn't want that, you
would just, you know, be in anine to five job.
You wouldn't start your ownbusiness.
You wouldn't be required to doany sales.
You wouldn't be required to domarketing and get the leads.
(03:15):
And then the sales piece isconverting the leads and turning
that into top line revenue.
If, if you don't want to beresponsible for that, then it's
better off just to, you know, bein a job or have to be partner
in a firm because the peoplebringing in the work, that's a
sales related activity.
(03:37):
Even though I think most peoplejust don't like the word sales.
They think it's a bad fourletter word, you know, S A L E
and it has multiple definitions,but it's the most important part
of having a successful practiceand having abundance in your
life.
KC Brothers (03:54):
Yeah.
Michelle Weinstein (03:54):
Um, where you don't have to feel
constantly stressed orfrustrated and you can have full
control over who you work with,but really also.
Knowing how much you can reallycharge each client, even when
you think they can't afford it.
And all of that is sales.
KC Brothers (04:12):
Oh man.
I, so I'm a daughter of anentrepreneur and I can't tell
you how much I even talked toher about things like this.
Like she's not in accounting atall, but she struggles with so
many of the same concepts.
She's really good.
She's got the, like, she talksabout her business all the time.
Right.
So in terms of you saying likeyou're in a sales position 24
(04:33):
seven, that is not where mymother struggles at all.
And I think in that regard, ifyou do struggle with that, like,
It can be a natural thing.
Just,
Michelle Weinstein (04:44):
yeah.
KC Brothers (04:45):
And it, and it doesn't have to be to your
point.
Like maybe we try and debunkthis four letter word of sale.
It's not you pushing anything onanyone.
It's you giving them knowledgeto then make a decision they
either need to make or don'tmake, you
Michelle Weinstein (05:03):
know?
Well, and I think taking it onestep further, they're going to
make a decision that they feelgood about.
So you're ultimately just theguide.
Yeah.
And when you can become reallygood at.
sales.
It's really just aboutidentifying someone's challenge
or problem and really being ableto be a good doctor.
If you think of the bestsurgeons in the world, they're
(05:24):
the best salespeople.
You're paying hundreds ofthousands of dollars for
surgeries that most time youneed.
But the way they have theconversation with you is they're
asking you a lot of open endedquestions.
Yeah.
And that's how you can not getparalyzed about the sales call.
I think so many firm owners I'veworked with and I talked to,
(05:45):
they get paralyzed about thethought of the upcoming sales
call or worried you're going toget like freeze up and then the
prospects take control.
But you know, there's a systemto it and you can have full
control and you can also Be inthe driver's seat without being
pushy, without being a nag and,and without having to convince
(06:08):
somebody, you know, I hear a lotof clients.
Well, Michelle, how do Iconvince them?
I'm like, well, that's whatexactly what you don't do.
You don't want to convinceanyone.
And, you know, it's, I think theunfortunate part is that there's
so many firm owners that justdon't have a plan, you know,
your mind goes blank.
You let prospects steer theconversation instead of you
(06:29):
guiding it.
So if you don't have a plan andyou don't, you know, you shoot
from the hip and you go to asales meeting without a plan,
then yeah, you probably soundlike you're convincing or you
don't feel confident.
And then how do you guide thatclient into you're the best firm
owner for them?
You don't.
KC Brothers (06:49):
Yeah.
I mean, maybe just as you'retalking, so I, in my role, I,
Enable our sales organization alot.
And I talked to them a lot aboutconsulting and solution selling
and man, if you need to getyourself up and out of that, um,
the negative connotations withthe four letter word, think
(07:10):
about it as a consulting call.
You are an expert that has theseskills that said individual or
organization wants to tap into,or at least assess if they need
and see if you're a right fit.
Just consult.
These open ended questions areso important.
Michelle Weinstein (07:29):
Yeah, and I think when you say the word
consult, one other thing youwant to make sure that we don't
do in a sales meeting isSometimes when you say, well,
I'm consulting, you're actuallysolving someone's problem.
So if you're doing free work,you're giving away answers for
free tip.
That's not the consulting thatyou're talking about.
(07:51):
We want to be really sure thatwe, we demonstrate our knowledge
by asking really good questions.
Without actually giving away ananswer or answering a specific
question because they haven'tpaid you yet.
KC Brothers (08:08):
Yeah.
In this regard, I'm so glad youcalled that out.
Maybe, and maybe I actually callit consultative sale selling.
So I still use the word sales.
Michelle Weinstein (08:17):
Yes.
Um,
KC Brothers (08:18):
but, um, it's, it's information gathering and it's
interesting because I do feellike from what I hear from our
sales reps that.
Accountants can have a hard timewhen they try to do that to
them.
It's like, no, I just want totell you what I just show me
what you have.
(08:38):
Just show me what you have.
It's like, no, I want to hearyour pains.
I want to understand what yourfirm situation is.
And so it's funny that you'resaying that they have a hard
time doing this because it alsoseems that maybe some people
have a hard time being on thereceiving end of it as well.
I think
Michelle Weinstein (08:57):
it's hard to be on the receiving end and to
ask these questions because Iwould say Most accounting tax
and bookkeeping firm owners thatI've worked with You know Not
only do they crumble when thethought of a sales call comes
around and we worry that we'regoing to go blank Or that we're
going to come across pushy theproblem is that Sometimes you
(09:21):
show up to these meetings or thesales call and you're, you have
imposter syndrome, right?
Like you're not really goodenough yet, or maybe you're just
starting or you don't have aniche.
So how could you be the bestperson for them?
Or like you're pretending to bethe expert.
So I think it even goes one stepfurther where you have to have
(09:44):
that certainty before you evermeet with a client, you know,
otherwise.
Why put yourself through that?
You have to first know thatyou're capable of doing the
books, the taxes, the planning,the fractional CFO work, the
accounting, whatever it is thatyou're doing for the client and
that you're amazing at what youdo, because if you don't have
(10:06):
that certainty, um, Casey, whatI've teach and preach all the
time is people by clarity,certainty, and confidence.
If you don't come across any ofthose.
People will not want to engageyou in your firm.
You have to be confident in thework that you do.
And you have to be certain thatyou are the best person for
(10:29):
them.
KC Brothers (10:30):
Yeah.
And to that point, you kind ofmentioned this already.
Um, and not to say that this isa must, but I highly recommend
this.
And I've, I'm assuming you dotoo, cause you dropped the word,
but having, A niche and knowinga target, right?
Instead of casting a net wide,this might be a bad metaphor and
(10:54):
PETA might come after me.
And I don't know PETA approvedversion, uh, like shooting fish
in the barrel.
Right?
Like, you know, who you're goingafter.
And, and in that sense too, whenyou've made those.
Um, characteristics known toyourself.
I think that helps yourconfidence show up more
(11:16):
regardless of how confident youmight be in general.
Michelle Weinstein (11:19):
It's so true.
I mean, you have, I always say,You know, really narrow down as
much as you can get yourmessaging, right?
Get your communication, right?
Understand how to sell to thatunique person because selling to
anyone else that comes your way,that is a good fit, maybe in a
different industry, but youstill want to work with them
(11:40):
will be so much easier.
Like for me, I only work andteach sales and the art of
enrollment and how toconfidently communicate your
value.
To accounting tax bookkeepingfirm owners, you know, tax
attorneys, fractional CFO.
And that's it.
I've had lawyers contact me.
(12:02):
I've had pretty much everyindustry person, you know, can
you do this for us?
And I'm like, no, I only workwith this niche.
And so when people come to me.
Saying, and this happenedliterally just last week.
Oh, Michelle, I'm talking, youknow, to five other sales
companies, trainers, andcoaches.
(12:22):
And I said, great, what's theirtrack record working with
accounting tax and bookkeepingfirm owners that, you know,
might offer tax planningadvisory, fractional CFO type
work.
And they're like, oh, well,they're just general.
And I said, great.
So you can go learn from ageneralist or someone like me
who literally can sell tax plansand monthly bookkeeping myself
(12:43):
alongside a CPA or an EA or, youknow, I know the ins and outs of
your firm.
I know everything that you'rechallenged with.
And I can sell everything.
So with confidence andcertainty, which comes across,
that person can make a decision.
And then I get to say, well, doI even want to work with someone
(13:05):
who's even entertaining coachingand sales from someone who's
just a generalist that workswith all sorts of big companies?
No, I probably, that's notprobably a good client for me.
So you're able to really niche,even smaller when you get really
clear on who do you want to workwith and who do you not want to
work with.
And to be honest with thatperson, I wish them nothing but
(13:27):
the best.
I said, I hope you, you findwhat you're looking for.
It doesn't even sound like youknow what you want.
KC Brothers (13:32):
Well, and to play on your business name, even
it's, you don't have a scarcitymindset.
You have an abundant mindset,which is game changing.
Michelle Weinstein (13:44):
Correct.
Yeah.
And, and the abundant accountantwas there for a reason.
You know, I really wanted to notonly have abundance for myself,
but for all of you who mostpeople that I meet and work with
come from a place of scarcity.
Scarcity looks like I need towork with everyone that comes
(14:05):
through my firm.
I need to take on anybody andeverybody.
I can't
KC Brothers (14:09):
fire anyone.
Michelle Weinstein (14:10):
I can't fire any clients.
I should be lucky, Michelle.
I even have clients.
I, I can't, I can't lower, Ican't increase my prices.
I'm here to help people.
I'm here to really help them.
I actually need to discount myfees.
You know what?
I'm going to work with someoneand do some free work and
discount it.
And then maybe in the future,they'll pay me more.
(14:31):
And honestly, that's just aformula for a disaster because
that's how I'm able to help.
So many firms turn it around.
And really all it is is shiftingour mindset and having a little
bit of success on everymilestone.
And then that's how we takecontrol back of our firm.
That's how we have conversationswith ease and confidence, and
(14:54):
that's how we can stop secondguessing our pricing.
Because a lot of times you'relike.
Coming in saying, okay, I know Iwant to do bookkeeping at 900 a
month for this client.
And then you're like, Oh no,I'll do it for two 50 because I
really need the client and Ireally need to pay my bills and
I have a staff to pay.
So I better just do that.
So that's really what we do herebecause we stop the trading time
(15:19):
for dollars, you know, andthat's how we start growing a
firm on our terms.
Yeah.
Versus on your client's terms oron the terms of when's your next
bills need to get paid or when'syour next payroll or any of
those because that's justgetting by.
That's not abundance.
KC Brothers (15:38):
Yeah.
Okay.
So a couple questions for you.
Um.
Maybe I should ask one at atime.
Um, who is this best suited for?
The, there are two versions ofthat.
So that's where my two questionscome in size, right?
Is this, is this something thatanybody and everybody, no matter
(15:59):
the size of their firm should bethinking about and, you know, no
matter,
Michelle Weinstein (16:03):
I mean, I've worked with, um, firm owners
that are a one man show.
In the beginning, you know,before you can afford to hire.
I mean, what's beautiful abouttop line revenue is the more
revenue you have coming in thedoor, the more help you can
hire.
The better you can pay your topstaff, the more bonuses you can
pay out, um, at holiday time.
(16:25):
Like there's so many benefitswhen you learn the art of
enrollment and selling and beingable to do it in a way that
feels good.
We're not being pushy.
You're not a nag and you can dothat.
And then there's also firms thathave four or five partners that
all need to get on the same pagewhen it comes to enrolling and
(16:48):
getting the engagement letterssigned and getting the clients
to pay up front, because I'veworked with firms with 100, 000
to 1.
2 million in AR.
And if you have accountsreceivable, you have a sales
problem.
So, uh, That solves that problemtoo, because you know, if you,
if you have AR and you'regrinding away 12 to 16 hour days
(17:13):
and you're working weekends justto keep up, you have a sales
problem.
So this is really for any sizefirm.
It's just the bigger the firmand the more heads that are
involved, the more everyone hasto get trained on that.
Where if you're a team of, youknow, five or six people and two
people are meeting all theclients and doing the selling,
(17:34):
then those two people need to beon the same page.
KC Brothers (17:36):
Yeah, that's fascinating that you say that if
you have an AR you have a salesproblem.
I thought about it as if youhave AR you have an operations
problem.
Michelle Weinstein (17:45):
Oh no, that's a sales problem.
KC Brothers (17:47):
Yeah.
Michelle Weinstein (17:48):
So if you have accounts receivable,
basically you've now become abank.
You should, you give peopleloans at 0 percent interest and
you're now a bill collector andwhoever is doing the billing and
the invoicing, you're paying outof your own pocket.
So it's like a loss to yourprofitability.
(18:10):
Um, yeah, it's a total waste oftime.
KC Brothers (18:14):
It really is.
It is a huge time suck.
And where I thought it was anoperations problem was like,
okay, well just collect it upfront.
And maybe that it ties intosales in that regard of like,
you're communicating, you havethe tools to pull the payments,
process the payments, whetherthat's recurring or whatever it
may be.
(18:34):
Might be a one time
Michelle Weinstein (18:35):
engagement, might be recurring, but all of
that has to be brought up front.
But a lot of people.
He's the avoid trying to collectthe money up front.
And they're like, Oh, I'll justsend you a proposal and you can
review it.
And then you hear crickets andyou get ghosted and you never
hear from the other personbecause.
(18:55):
You decided to take the reactiveor the passive approach instead
of taking the proactiveapproach, which is, Hey, Casey,
let's work together.
I'm 100 percent confident.
I can help you.
I've got the engagement letter.
Let's review it.
We're going to do your ACH foryour first payment, or you can
pay on a credit card.
(19:15):
And by the way, you know,everything's due on the 30th of
the month for the next month's,um, work.
So if you don't have thatconversation with somebody right
there in the first meeting.
You are now taking the passiveapproach and crossing your
fingers, hoping that maybethey're going to hit the sign
button and pay the invoice.
(19:35):
But every firm I've worked with,that's not really a good recipe
for success.
Um, and you can't handle theobjection.
So most of us don't want to berejected and we don't want to
hear, Oh, that why are you soexpensive or why you're so much
more than the other firm downthe street.
Or how come, um, you know, I,you're charging me this, this
(19:58):
year where in the past, it'sonly been X, all of that are
objections that you have tolearn to overcome.
And when you can overcome themwith confidence right there in
the first meeting, then set
KC Brothers (20:11):
yourself up to avoid them, right?
Because when you send
Michelle Weinstein (20:15):
a proposal or send off a quote, you are
setting yourself up to avoid theobjection.
Which if you don't hear from theclient, they are saying they
need to think about it, talk totheir business partner, talk to
their husband or wife.
You're too expensive.
Why are you charging me so much?
And all of that is becauseyou're not implementing an
(20:35):
effortless sales system in yourfirm.
KC Brothers (20:38):
Yeah.
And, and when you don't do that,then Objection handling further
down the journey is harder.
It's so much harder to explainthose same reasons when the
status quo was different.
So why just start, start offwith you're on the right foot.
(20:59):
Um, I'd be curious to know too,what, what do you recommend to
then for, um, price changes?
Do you have a, Hey, in 1 percentincrease every year.
I don't know.
No,
Michelle Weinstein (21:11):
no, no, no.
Um, that's a whole notherpodcast, Kasey, because you're
talking about it.
Yeah,
KC Brothers (21:16):
I know.
We've barely even touchedpricing strategy.
Michelle Weinstein (21:19):
I know.
No, what I recommend is that yousend out a communication via
email, snail mail, whatever thatis.
And most of the time, I mean,when, when firm owners first
start working with me, I dorecommend we go two to 300
percent more than whatever itwas before.
But depending on the firm, youknow, if they've got 750, 1040
(21:42):
clients and 150 businessentities, and then some are
monthly accounting andbookkeeping, we address all of
the different segmentsdifferently.
But there is no 1 percentincrease.
I can tell you that there aresignificant increases because
most people I want, I work with,don't want to work with so much
volume.
(22:02):
They rather have higher qualityclients and less of the Pitta
clients.
And we want to get rid of someclients.
So we're also saying, okay,well, what percent of your
volume do you want to shed?
And then from there we'refiguring out the pricing and
then from there the letter iswritten and reviewed by me And
(22:23):
then it's sent and i've neverhad anyone say michelle My price
I put too high every time fromevery client i've ever worked
with it's Michelle, I shouldhave went a little bit higher.
I'm like, yeah, I know.
It's okay.
It was terrifying to do so nextyear.
We have another opportunity.
Well, and that's really, youknow, there's a certain skill
(22:44):
set and steps that you need inorder to command premium fee.
Yes.
Yes.
So, and that's ultimately howyou achieve work life balance.
That's how you get your lifeback and your freedom back and
have that time freedom that Ithink everyone is looking for
and searching for, but it allstems in the prices and how you
(23:05):
communicate that to
KC Brothers (23:07):
Yeah.
And then the more you do that,the more you work with the same
people, same types of people,same genre, same problems, the
more of an expert you become,the more of a right you have to
do a price raise every year ortwo or however new.
Oh my gosh, we need to doanother episode just on pricing
strategy.
I would love to.
Let's do that.
I feel like I hear so much aboutit.
(23:29):
I mean, I was, um, I, I joinedCanopy and then a month or two
later went to Scaling NewHeights and the first session I
sat in was with Ron Baker.
Yep.
And, um, it was interestingbecause I'd come from tech where
of course I'm familiar with thesubscription based pricing.
(23:50):
Yep.
And here he is talking aboutthese things.
I didn't know he'd been talkingabout it for years and is It's
still beating that drum and it'sstill hard for people to adjust
and not really building there'sso much.
The transcription model
Michelle Weinstein (24:02):
that he's talking about is like a medical
concierge doctor business.
Yeah.
And that's one option.
You don't have to go Exactly.
Convert all of your clients tothat option.
But You know, there's peoplethat want that option that are
also willing to pay for it.
So again, it's figuring out howare you not going to negotiate
(24:26):
on price?
How are you not going to devalueyour worth in ways that make it,
you know, feel simple, easy, andeffortless and automatic.
And sometimes the subscriptionpricing model is a good one.
And sometimes maybe it's not,but it's about.
How do you work the hours youwant to work while having plenty
(24:47):
of time for your family And yourfree time because you can't it
all comes down to your salesprocess
KC Brothers (24:55):
Ah, yes, you, you're speaking my language,
something I feel passionateabout in my own life and another
reason why I'm like, we got toget this out there because I
know accountants talk about it.
I know they're runningthemselves thin and, oh, I hope,
I hope this lands well and helpssome people out and then maybe
(25:15):
we need to do another episodejust on pricing.
Michelle Weinstein (25:18):
Yeah, we can.
And if you want to.
Explore too.
Like if you're an accounting taxor bookkeeping firm owner and
you're listening and you wannaput an end to a lot of these
problems, yes.
We talked about today, you canschedule a one-on-one call with
me and my teamover@theabundantcall.com, and
basically what we'll do is we'llshow you how do you close more
(25:39):
clients and end the secondguessing.
How do you stop procrastinating?
And also how do you fill yourfirm up with ideal clients?
So we will have a conversationabout that on our call.
So you can book that again attheabundantcall.
com.
KC Brothers (25:56):
I mean, listen to you.
You're a wonderful saleswoman.
You just, you just reiteratedall the points that we've just
made for the past 20 minuteswith your simple invitation
right there.
I love it.
Thanks, Michelle.
Michelle Weinstein (26:08):
Yeah, no, this was lovely.
Thank you so much for having meand I look forward to our next
one.
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