May 14, 2025 • 28 mins
Michelle Weinstein returns for an inspiring conversation around the art of selling. She stresses the importance of having a solid sales process in a firm in order to increase profitability. Michelle notes that being prepared and confident in sales meetings can make a significant difference in transforming a firm.
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Episode Transcript
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KC Brothers (00:05):
Welcome back to another episode of Canopy
Practice Success.
I am your host, KC Brothers, andwe have our first return guest.
Welcome back,
Michelle Weinstein (00:15):
Michelle.
Thank you so much for having meback.
This is awesome, your firstreturn guest.
This is fun.
Hopefully we have many more.
Yes.
KC Brothers (00:27):
I just remember last time we had Too much to
talk about.
So I know I feel like I stillwant to talk
Michelle Weinstein (00:34):
about
KC Brothers (00:36):
all of it.
It's everything an accountantneeds to know because an
accountant, just like any otherentrepreneur knows their trade.
But then there are all of thesebusiness aspects that we, I
think we barely touched thesurface on sales last time.
Um, But there's just so muchmore to understand to ensure
(00:57):
that these accountants are setup for success, especially
anyone, whether they're startingin a new firm, no matter how big
it is, or even like re honingthese older firms as, um,
partners are retiring.
Michelle Weinstein (01:10):
Yep.
It's so true.
And, you know, I think with, youknow, people starting their firm
and partners retiring, it'sjust.
It's more, there's more of aneed for firm owners, but you
also need the skill set of salesbecause otherwise if you don't
know how to enroll these clientsat the right prices and
(01:32):
everything else, then you'llhave capacity issues.
You'll have cashflow problems.
If you're not getting paid upfront, you're, there's so many
elements to sales that I think.
Most firm owners just don'treally know.
And I actually just got off aclient review testimonial with
my client, Lauren.
And I mean, she was talkingabout, she's in a job, just
(01:55):
started her own accounting andbookkeeping firm.
She doesn't do any tax, but shestarted a year ago and still
hasn't really gotten it off theground per se.
And she was saying that she wasjust.
stuck.
She was paralyzed because shedidn't have a sales process.
So she couldn't even go and domarketing and lead generation
because she was scared to evenmeet with somebody.
(02:17):
And she didn't know how to pricetheir services or anything.
So she said it was a real eyeopener when she created a sales
process because it's like goinginto the unknown.
You just don't know what youdon't know.
And I think there's,
KC Brothers (02:29):
yeah, did she self diagnose?
Did she recognize she had asales problem or is that through
conversations you two hadtogether?
Michelle Weinstein (02:35):
You know, to be honest, I didn't ask her that
today, but she said she didn'thave a sales process and that
she knew that she needed that inorder to have confidence to even
meet with a prospect.
Which I thought was prettyamazing.
Cause most firm owners don'treally know what the problem is.
They like, it's not like you cango to chat GPT or Google and
(02:58):
say, well, what is my problem inmy firm?
Because it's not going to tellyou, maybe you have a sales
problem, but.
When you talk to us on thephone, we can help diagnose,
well, what is the issue thatyou're having in your firm?
If you're brand new, if you'vehad your firm for a year or two,
or if you, even if you had it,like I did one yesterday with my
client, Keith, he's had his firm15 years.
(03:21):
He generated an extra 19, 000just this last month.
He never had a sales process.
He had zero boundaries with hisclients.
He did everything and anythingfor anybody.
And he was at capacities likeMichelle.
I just couldn't keep going.
I was like in a tip over.
And I'm like, and I think that'san industry problem, right?
(03:41):
So many farm owners areoverworked, underpaid, stressed
out, having anxiety and panicattacks.
And it's like, as an industry,as a whole, we have to change.
And one of the biggest changeseach person can make is having a
sales process that you stick tobecause it helps you create
boundaries, not only foryourself, but also for your
clients.
KC Brothers (04:02):
Okay.
You've said a word twice nowthat I was going to say, if you
hadn't said it and that'sboundaries.
Oh, boundaries?
Huh?
Yeah, it's a term we hear a lot,right?
In our personal lives, I thinkat least.
Yeah, you gotta have boundarieswith your significant other,
right?
Yeah, with anyone.
You just have to know where yourlimits are, what's acceptable,
(04:23):
how you'll respond to all thesedifferent things.
In the business world, that's anSOP, right?
Maybe not an SOP, but anengagement, a proposal, an
agreement, right?
Without the guardrails, thebumpers on the bowling alley.
Yeah.
Like, it's just, it can getreally unruly.
(04:48):
Really quickly.
And to your point, I thinkthat's what can lead to these
symptoms.
We do hear accountants complainabout a lot.
So where, where does someonestart when refining a sales
specific, if we're going tofocus our operations, cause I
know that's your area ofexpertise, but we're going to
(05:09):
talk just about sales.
What might be the first thingyou should do?
Sales is
Michelle Weinstein (05:12):
my expertise, not operations, just
sales process, only that.
And.
And I think the most importantthing when you're thinking about
a sales process.
I mean, there's really not likejust one thing.
It encompasses everything.
So the sales process begins withyour client experience.
So what is the client experiencewhen they contact you?
(05:37):
From the time they send an emailinquiry, maybe they found you
through Yelp, your Google page,maybe you got a referral, maybe
you're spending money onmarketing and you're out there
on Facebook or doing Facebookads or Google, SEO, other stuff,
that's all marketing.
So the time you get the inquiry,begins the sales process.
(05:58):
Now, the sales process has manydifferent umbrellas.
There's the qualificationprocess.
There's what do you say in thesales meeting?
There's preparing for your salesmeeting.
There's learning how to handleobjections, a follow up process,
learning who your ideal clientis.
Who do you want to take on asclients?
Who do you not?
(06:19):
And the boundaries that you'regoing to stick to for your firm,
because this is the only way youcan also fix your capacity
problem for firm owners thathave had their firms for many
years, they feel, um, like a lotof pressure, like they're in a
pressure cooker because, youknow, maybe the money's not in
their bank account.
They have a bunch of a arethey're getting ghosted by
(06:41):
people because you're stillsending out proposals and quotes
and crossing your fingers,hoping someone will contact you
back and you're basicallydrowning, and that is a capacity
problem.
So that's also a sales problem.
So the sales umbrella and yoursales process in your firm has
so many different umbrellas ofareas that you need to focus on,
(07:03):
and I would say, understandingyour boundaries is probably the
number one.
Uh, area to focus on becausethat's how we can weed out
people who we don't even want towaste our time meeting with from
the people that are contactingus from our marketing effort.
KC Brothers (07:20):
Yeah.
Um, you meant the way you saidthat made me just, I want to
reword it a little bit because Ifeel like this was a point is
that capacity issues are alagging indicator of sales, lack
of sales process.
100%.
I felt like that for me as a nonaccountant, I felt like that was
(07:43):
a big light bulb.
Michelle Weinstein (07:44):
Yeah.
And, and my client, Keith, letme just see if I can find some
of his notes.
Um, because he had a capacityissue and now he's realizing
that.
There were so many things asfirm owners you think in your
head, but you never communicateto your client list.
You never communicate boundarieson when you need documents by
(08:07):
let's say for
KC Brothers (08:09):
accidental, it could be that you're scared or
nervous to say something outloud or like draw that boundary
with that line in the sand.
But there was something you saidlast episode you said, You teach
and preach all the time thatpeople buy clarity, certainty,
(08:29):
and confidence.
Totally.
I love the three C's.
Um, and it's so true becausethis, the wavering ness, the
lack of confidence communicatesso much.
It's like, okay, well, do youknow what you're doing?
If you don't know how tointeract with me, do you know
how to do bookkeeping?
They will instantly jump tothat, even if you are a great
bookkeeper or whatever the casemay be.
(08:50):
Yeah.
Michelle Weinstein (08:52):
And, and I think confidence.
Like people say, Oh, Michelle,you know, what do you really do
here at the abundant accountant?
What's your eight week salesmastery course all about?
And I'm like, I sell giving yourlife back, getting freedom back,
getting time back, getting moneyin your bank account, but
ultimately.
You get confident and that'swhat Lauren got.
(09:14):
I mean, so many brand new firmowners gain confidence just by
having a process.
And I think like for those ofyou doing bookkeeping or taxes,
you're confident in executingthe work cause you got taught a
step by step process for thatelement of executing the
workflow.
But what about the workflow toget money in your bank account?
You signed up and I talked aboutthis on the last episode.
(09:37):
To be a full time entrepreneur,which is a 24 seven sales job.
So you have to learn the art ofenrollment, the, the basic sales
one on one, if you're going toown a business, that's just what
it is.
We're always having to sellourself, but there's so many
other layers to sales and in anaccounting tax bookkeeping,
(09:59):
fractional CFO firm.
That, that are integrated inthat because one of the biggest
challenges for firm owners thathave been around a while is
accounts receivable.
The amount of time people wastechasing money and not getting
paid interest on that money andbeing a free bank just boggles
(10:21):
my mind.
And I've
KC Brothers (10:24):
just, you said something that I've really
started to lean into as we talkabout.
It's just like, you're not abank, quit being one.
You don't need to owe this, whatyou think might be a courtesy,
or I don't know, or maybe it'sjust, um, old practices that
just haven't really beenreconsidered, and like, oh, is
(10:46):
this actually the best way todo, you know, it's just been
practiced for so long.
Michelle Weinstein (10:51):
Yeah, you need to use your product, and
use Canopy, and And use all thetools that you're spending money
on, because that is how youdon't, you don't become a free
bank and all the money thatyou're missing out on, on the
compound interest and all thisother stuff, but just the admin,
(11:12):
some of the people that aresending out invoices and chasing
the money on 30, 60, 90 day oldaccounts.
invoices.
They've got admin people doingthat for them.
And what a waste of payroll whenyou could be doing so much more.
So most, not most, all myclients that work with me, like
Alfredo, he was in our class onTuesday goes, Michelle, this is
(11:34):
like the most relaxed tax seasonI've ever had.
I'm like, great.
That's how it should be all thetime.
you know, when you are ge you'renot going to file till they've,
you're not a finger retur paid.
There's been so man People justlike, you know, if you own a
(11:54):
firm and you're listening, howmany times have you done work
for somebody?
And then they just disappearedon you.
They didn't even take the workthat you did and you didn't get
paid.
Right.
It's, it's like, uh, myboyfriend took his shoes to a
shoe repair and.
He did a really good job, likethree different pairs of shoes.
(12:16):
They look brand new.
And he came back and he's like,do you know that you don't pay
for your shoes until you go pickthem up?
I go, how much stuff does thisguy have at his shop?
Do you know how many peopleprobably drop stuff off and just
completely forget?
That they even dropped anythingoff.
And it's the same for the firmowners that are doing work up
(12:38):
front.
This guy's repairing designerbags, designer shoes, fixing
them all, and has like all thisinventory and no money because
the people have completelyforgot about their stuff.
KC Brothers (12:51):
Okay.
So with that, that's aninteresting example.
Um, because where I want it, Iwanted to talk to you about
like, okay, is, is a way tosolve this AR issue pricing, you
know, just pricing, um, into, orlike just the timing, the way
(13:15):
you price.
Michelle Weinstein (13:15):
Okay.
Yeah.
So there's, well, we'll talkabout the three P's.
Okay.
Last time we talked about threeC's.
Today we'll talk about threeP's.
Number one, you have to priceand figure out what you're going
to charge for the engagement.
If it's a cleanup, if it's abusiness return, if it's
(13:38):
whatever, before you start thework, that's step number one.
Okay.
Because you have to gather thedocuments and know what are you
going to go into?
And KC, it's kind of like.
a doctor going into surgery.
I'll use my boyfriend for anexample, and he had a back
surgery, but the, the surgeon,the orthopedic surgeon would not
(13:59):
see him until he had x raysdone, MRI done, uh, pain
management done, physicaltherapy completed with all the
notes.
Then he saw the surgeon andsaid, okay, you've tried
everything.
I see the problem.
Now we're going to go dosurgery.
So in our world of taxes,bookkeeping, you know,
(14:21):
accounting, CFO work, all that.
We need to see people's.
Tax returns.
We need to see their financials.
We need to see their QuickBooksfiles.
We need to see all of that soyou can diagnose and look at the
x rays and look for where theirsoft tissue areas and other
things that you're going to seeon an MRI or, uh, x ray.
(14:41):
So you can diagnose the problemin your sales meeting.
You're actually coming soprepared to the sales meeting.
You have the engagement letterready.
You have the invoice ready.
You have everything ready to go.
Now, if there's some surprisethat you learn in your sales
meeting, which we have notenough time to talk about how to
do all that right here, um, thenyou can.
(15:02):
You know, make an adjustment orcreate a supplemental invoice at
that time.
But at least in your firstmeeting, you're also going to
get number two P is get paid upfront.
Yes.
You're going to get paid in thatsales meeting and you're going
to get assigned engagement.
So that eliminates AR.
It eliminates admin chasingpeople.
It makes you have a much fullerbank account.
(15:24):
You can reinvest those funds ifyou want, maybe, uh, you know,
high yield savings account, orif you need cashflow, at least
you've got it there, but atleast the money's growing and
doing something for you insteadof you being like you said, KC,
a free bank.
Okay.
So you need a price in advance.
You need to get paid up frontand you have to understand the
(15:45):
client's problems.
So when you're going through thex rays and the, MRI and their
QuickBooks and their tax returnsand their financials.
You're looking for problems.
You're looking for mistakes.
You're looking for where there'serrors.
You're being the investigatorsthat you are.
You're actually doing yourcraft.
You're doing what you're reallygood at and figuring out the
problems.
And then a whole nother podcastwe could do is understanding
(16:08):
what questions to ask yourprospect in a sales meeting to
really get to the root of theproblem and why someone would
want to pay you right then andthere to fix it.
So those are the three Ps.
KC Brothers (16:21):
Yes, and you've mentioned doing that, um, I
mean, I'm sure you've got someof it established up front so
that you can communicate it inthe sales meeting.
It seems like the sales meetingis like the crux.
It is.
What?
Michelle Weinstein (16:36):
It's very important because, um, in the
sales meeting, you can also getpaid up front.
You can get the engagementletter signed, which can also
eliminate being ghosted.
I would say over half or more ofthe firm owners, you send out a
quote, a proposal, and thenyou're like, Oh, I never heard
from them again.
They said they wanted to moveforward.
They said they were going tosign my proposal.
(16:58):
They never paid the invoice.
They never signed it.
You're ghosted.
And then you're wasting all thistime trying to figure out who to
even follow up with because youdon't have a follow up system in
place, which is also part ofyour sales process.
So we want to switch the, theroles.
We want to have clientspractically chasing you down
because they see that you're thebest surgeon for them.
(17:22):
They want to pay you whateverthey asked you, you know,
they're not begging you.
They're just, they see the valuein you and they see what you're
worth and they want to work withyou where most, um, firm owners
feel underappreciated andundervalued and, you know, are
just taken for a free ride.
So we change the script byhaving a sales process in place
(17:47):
and you can do that withoutbeing pushy, without being
salesy, and just having a skillset that, you know, so you can
follow steps, that's all.
Yeah,
KC Brothers (17:57):
and I would say too, a myth that maybe people
might have, or I feel like I'veheard circulated all over, you
know, not just specific toaccountants.
Yep.
But you don't have to be anatural salesperson.
I don't know that that's athing.
Michelle Weinstein (18:12):
You don't need to be a salesperson at all.
You just need to be you.
You just need to follow somesteps,
KC Brothers (18:19):
that's all.
Yeah, yeah, and it goes back toyour three C's with like
confidence.
It's just like, okay, trust inthe process.
You've, you know, slow down tospeed up, right?
You've taken care of those threeP's.
You've looked at, you'veestablished, The pricing,
you're, you have the systems toget paid up front, um, and
(18:41):
you're doing that.
Trust that you are doing that insuch a way that is going to be
beneficial to your business.
Hold true to it.
Right.
And again, like revisit it everyyear or two.
Do you have a recommendationfrom there?
Michelle Weinstein (18:53):
Yep.
I mean, I revisit a salesprocess all the time.
You're always refining.
It's not like it's set in stone,right?
It's going to always ebb andflow.
And you always want to bemeeting with clients all the
time because you want to avoidscope creep.
So you always want a newengagement for every single
(19:14):
client that you have.
So if it's an annual engagement,then make sure you're meeting
with them quarterly, but thenonce a year, you're meeting with
them just to go over whatthey've engaged your firm for,
because that's how you havecontrol over your firm versus.
Your firm running you.
KC Brothers (19:32):
Oh my gosh.
And that last part, like thebusiness doesn't have to run
you.
Michelle Weinstein (19:38):
No.
No, no, you want to have controlover your sales conversations.
You want to have control overhow the firm is run.
You don't, I don't think any ofyou created a firm to just have
a job and feel like, you know,this has just turned into
another job.
No, you want the freedom.
You want the time freedom.
You want the money freedom.
(19:59):
That's really what you want, butit really.
It stems from having a step bystep sales process.
So you can enroll high quality,high paying clients, establish
yourself as a premium, and howcan you do this without losing
any of your current clients, ifyou have current clients and for
those firm owners that are juststarting out, how do you not
(20:20):
make the mistakes that.
So many firm owners have, Imean, I just got off the zoom
with Lauren and she was sayingbefore she had met me, she was
figuring out her pricing bygoing online and looking what
people around her were charging.
And she's like, Oh my God, theirprices were so low and so cheap.
That's why everyone's burnt out,underpaid, and overworked in
(20:41):
that capacity, because you'rejust so cheap.
You're charging the lower amountbased on someone in your area.
Well, to change this industry asa collective, we have to really
get a grip about what are weworth?
What did we invest in ourcareers?
And she said she learned how toprice, and then she said even
the pricing she thought she wasgoing to do was still too low.
(21:03):
So now it's even higher, but nowshe has the confidence.
And when you have theconfidence, anything is possible
because that's how you can stoptrading time for dollars.
You know, you don't want totrade one hour for the X number
of dollars.
We want to start growing a firmon our own terms.
KC Brothers (21:19):
Yes.
Yeah.
Because when you stop seeingyour, the, what you have to
offer them as your time and moreas your expertise, it's not
necessarily about the time youput into it, but the knowledge,
um, and skills you have thatthey don't have.
Because
you are providing them with a value.
(21:41):
You're not providing them withhours.
They are not paying for hours.
They're paying you for anoutcome or an output.
Michelle Weinstein (21:49):
Outcome.
I use outcome all the time, KC.
It's they're paying you for anoutcome for back surgery.
For my boyfriend, he was payingfor the outcome of no pain when
he walked.
That's an outcome.
You know, we're always lookingfor the outcome.
What is the result that youdeliver?
That's what we sell.
We don't sell bookkeeping.
We don't sell a tax return.
We don't sell CFO, fractionalCFO services.
(22:11):
We sell the outcome, you know,peace of mind for a lot of you,
you sell freedom for a lot of.
Taxpayers.
You don't have to worry aboutthe IRS.
You know, those are the outcomesthat you provide your clients.
KC Brothers (22:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think it's a big mental shift,but an important one when it
comes to both, um, pricing yourofferings as well as
understanding.
Okay.
Well, if my input isn't what itused to be, am I, um, being
dishonest?
No, you're not, you know, likeI, I see this with my mom as an
(22:47):
entrepreneur, as she's struggledwith that throughout the years.
It's like, no, mom, they'repaying you for your expertise
and if you have better andrefine it and can do it in less
time, then that means more timefor you.
Yes.
It's more
Michelle Weinstein (23:00):
profit for you.
Yeah.
I mean, Okay.
I want, I want, it's like thething you've probably seen on
social media and Facebook withthe plumber.
You know, there's the guys thatcome and take hours, try to fix
the problem.
There's the guy that comes in,takes two seconds and charges
you a couple grand when theother guys took a few hours and
we're going to charge you 600.
I rather have the person comein, fix the problem, get the
(23:24):
hell out of here.
And I pay him a lot of money todo that because he's had a lot
of experience trying to figureit out.
KC Brothers (23:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, I do want to in our lastcouple of minutes, just because
that sales meeting seems to belike this big deal breaker.
Do you have a formula, anoutline, recommendations for,
You know, how long should itlast?
Can it be on zoom?
Can it be in person?
Can you replace it with a loomvideo?
I've been seeing lots ofrecommendations there.
(23:51):
What things,
Michelle Weinstein (23:53):
no human connection.
I mean, well, in the way that Iteach it's relationship based
selling, so you have to havephone conversations and the way
I teach, and you know, if youwant to dive deep into this, you
can book a call with me and myteam at theabundantcall.
com and we'll go through whatyou're currently doing in your
firm.
Figure out the gaps in yourcurrent sales process and then
(24:16):
At least you'll know exactlywhat to fix.
And then if some of you want ourhelp, we can talk about that
too, but go to the abundantcall.
com.
But as far as all the steps,like you can't do it on loom.
I don't recommend it on zoombecause once you work with me,
you're going to have all sortsof notes and things.
And then you can't be presentwith your client because
(24:39):
actually sales is about a skillof listening.
And so in order to listen, Ineed to close the eyes and close
that off and not pretend we'regoing to look at someone on
video and just do things on thephone.
So that's what me and my teamdo.
Everything is on the phone untilwe actually Start working with
you.
Then we're on zoom.
Um, so I don't believe in inperson meetings, no loom and no,
(25:04):
no video meetings, everythingshould be on the phone because
that's the only way you canreally become a really great
listener.
And the sales meeting 99 percentof it is a listening skillset
and listening for key thingsthat I would teach you.
So that's my, um, two cents, uh,for.
(25:26):
Typically a bookkeeping client,a cleanup project, CFO, uh,
accounting client.
You'll need an hour if it's justa tax return.
That's kind of a take it orleave it conversation once you
come up with your boundaries andyour prices and your minimum so
that that conversation goes alittle bit easier, but.
It's all about how do you haveevery single call go smooth like
(25:48):
butter.
You've got to be prepared.
And, um, KC, we don't have timeto talk about all steps.
Cause there's 15 steps to myprocess and a one hour meeting.
Um, but I do know that once.
You've gone through the processand you have the confidence and
you understand it.
You will definitely get paidyour worth and you're going to
get paid based on the value ofyour expertise and that your
(26:10):
bank account and you will bevery happy and less stressed and
less frustrated and less angry.
KC Brothers (26:18):
Yeah, what you said.
I think that's a great, greatway to wrap it up.
Yeah.
Michelle Weinstein (26:23):
For sure.
There's
KC Brothers (26:24):
just, there's, there is so
Michelle Weinstein (26:26):
much.
KC Brothers (26:27):
Yes, the grass is in fact greener on the other
side of this.
Michelle Weinstein (26:32):
Once you have a sales process.
KC Brothers (26:35):
Yes, because on the other side of this sales process
um, workshop, right?
Yes.
The grass is greener.
You can decrease hours.
You can become more profitable.
It is, it's not too good to betrue.
It's not,
Michelle Weinstein (26:52):
and you can eliminate the guesswork, you
know, I think there's just somuch, or like Lauren called it,
she would just like wing it.
She had no idea what to do orwhat to say.
And the stress and the anxietyof that just really creeps in on
you.
So you can have the financialfreedom that you want.
That you've probably alwaysdreamt of, and you don't have to
(27:13):
chase anyone down for paymentsever again.
All of that is 100 percentpossible, and I've seen it with
many firm owners.
Yeah.
KC Brothers (27:23):
Well, thank you
Michelle Weinstein (27:24):
again, Michelle.
Awesome.
Well, thank you so much forhaving me, and hopefully we can
talk to a few of you.
Again, you can go totheabundantcall.
com to schedule that, and wewould love to talk to you about
how to take control over yourfirm and have control over your
sales conversations.
KC Brothers (27:40):
Matt, if you didn't just realize that she just sold
you, then you've missed thewhole conversation.
Like, that was so succinct.
Yeah.
so
Michelle Weinstein (27:50):
much for having me, KC.
Welcome back to another episode of Canopy
Practice Success.
I am your host, KC Brothers, andwe have our first return guest.
Welcome back,
Michelle Weinstein (00:15):
Michelle.
Thank you so much for having meback.
This is awesome, your firstreturn guest.
This is fun.
Hopefully we have many more.
Yes.
KC Brothers (00:27):
I just remember last time we had Too much to
talk about.
So I know I feel like I stillwant to talk
Michelle Weinstein (00:34):
about
KC Brothers (00:36):
all of it.
It's everything an accountantneeds to know because an
accountant, just like any otherentrepreneur knows their trade.
But then there are all of thesebusiness aspects that we, I
think we barely touched thesurface on sales last time.
Um, But there's just so muchmore to understand to ensure
(00:57):
that these accountants are setup for success, especially
anyone, whether they're startingin a new firm, no matter how big
it is, or even like re honingthese older firms as, um,
partners are retiring.
Michelle Weinstein (01:10):
Yep.
It's so true.
And, you know, I think with, youknow, people starting their firm
and partners retiring, it'sjust.
It's more, there's more of aneed for firm owners, but you
also need the skill set of salesbecause otherwise if you don't
know how to enroll these clientsat the right prices and
(01:32):
everything else, then you'llhave capacity issues.
You'll have cashflow problems.
If you're not getting paid upfront, you're, there's so many
elements to sales that I think.
Most firm owners just don'treally know.
And I actually just got off aclient review testimonial with
my client, Lauren.
And I mean, she was talkingabout, she's in a job, just
(01:55):
started her own accounting andbookkeeping firm.
She doesn't do any tax, but shestarted a year ago and still
hasn't really gotten it off theground per se.
And she was saying that she wasjust.
stuck.
She was paralyzed because shedidn't have a sales process.
So she couldn't even go and domarketing and lead generation
because she was scared to evenmeet with somebody.
(02:17):
And she didn't know how to pricetheir services or anything.
So she said it was a real eyeopener when she created a sales
process because it's like goinginto the unknown.
You just don't know what youdon't know.
And I think there's,
KC Brothers (02:29):
yeah, did she self diagnose?
Did she recognize she had asales problem or is that through
conversations you two hadtogether?
Michelle Weinstein (02:35):
You know, to be honest, I didn't ask her that
today, but she said she didn'thave a sales process and that
she knew that she needed that inorder to have confidence to even
meet with a prospect.
Which I thought was prettyamazing.
Cause most firm owners don'treally know what the problem is.
They like, it's not like you cango to chat GPT or Google and
(02:58):
say, well, what is my problem inmy firm?
Because it's not going to tellyou, maybe you have a sales
problem, but.
When you talk to us on thephone, we can help diagnose,
well, what is the issue thatyou're having in your firm?
If you're brand new, if you'vehad your firm for a year or two,
or if you, even if you had it,like I did one yesterday with my
client, Keith, he's had his firm15 years.
(03:21):
He generated an extra 19, 000just this last month.
He never had a sales process.
He had zero boundaries with hisclients.
He did everything and anythingfor anybody.
And he was at capacities likeMichelle.
I just couldn't keep going.
I was like in a tip over.
And I'm like, and I think that'san industry problem, right?
(03:41):
So many farm owners areoverworked, underpaid, stressed
out, having anxiety and panicattacks.
And it's like, as an industry,as a whole, we have to change.
And one of the biggest changeseach person can make is having a
sales process that you stick tobecause it helps you create
boundaries, not only foryourself, but also for your
clients.
KC Brothers (04:02):
Okay.
You've said a word twice nowthat I was going to say, if you
hadn't said it and that'sboundaries.
Oh, boundaries?
Huh?
Yeah, it's a term we hear a lot,right?
In our personal lives, I thinkat least.
Yeah, you gotta have boundarieswith your significant other,
right?
Yeah, with anyone.
You just have to know where yourlimits are, what's acceptable,
(04:23):
how you'll respond to all thesedifferent things.
In the business world, that's anSOP, right?
Maybe not an SOP, but anengagement, a proposal, an
agreement, right?
Without the guardrails, thebumpers on the bowling alley.
Yeah.
Like, it's just, it can getreally unruly.
(04:48):
Really quickly.
And to your point, I thinkthat's what can lead to these
symptoms.
We do hear accountants complainabout a lot.
So where, where does someonestart when refining a sales
specific, if we're going tofocus our operations, cause I
know that's your area ofexpertise, but we're going to
(05:09):
talk just about sales.
What might be the first thingyou should do?
Sales is
Michelle Weinstein (05:12):
my expertise, not operations, just
sales process, only that.
And.
And I think the most importantthing when you're thinking about
a sales process.
I mean, there's really not likejust one thing.
It encompasses everything.
So the sales process begins withyour client experience.
So what is the client experiencewhen they contact you?
(05:37):
From the time they send an emailinquiry, maybe they found you
through Yelp, your Google page,maybe you got a referral, maybe
you're spending money onmarketing and you're out there
on Facebook or doing Facebookads or Google, SEO, other stuff,
that's all marketing.
So the time you get the inquiry,begins the sales process.
(05:58):
Now, the sales process has manydifferent umbrellas.
There's the qualificationprocess.
There's what do you say in thesales meeting?
There's preparing for your salesmeeting.
There's learning how to handleobjections, a follow up process,
learning who your ideal clientis.
Who do you want to take on asclients?
Who do you not?
(06:19):
And the boundaries that you'regoing to stick to for your firm,
because this is the only way youcan also fix your capacity
problem for firm owners thathave had their firms for many
years, they feel, um, like a lotof pressure, like they're in a
pressure cooker because, youknow, maybe the money's not in
their bank account.
They have a bunch of a arethey're getting ghosted by
(06:41):
people because you're stillsending out proposals and quotes
and crossing your fingers,hoping someone will contact you
back and you're basicallydrowning, and that is a capacity
problem.
So that's also a sales problem.
So the sales umbrella and yoursales process in your firm has
so many different umbrellas ofareas that you need to focus on,
(07:03):
and I would say, understandingyour boundaries is probably the
number one.
Uh, area to focus on becausethat's how we can weed out
people who we don't even want towaste our time meeting with from
the people that are contactingus from our marketing effort.
KC Brothers (07:20):
Yeah.
Um, you meant the way you saidthat made me just, I want to
reword it a little bit because Ifeel like this was a point is
that capacity issues are alagging indicator of sales, lack
of sales process.
100%.
I felt like that for me as a nonaccountant, I felt like that was
(07:43):
a big light bulb.
Michelle Weinstein (07:44):
Yeah.
And, and my client, Keith, letme just see if I can find some
of his notes.
Um, because he had a capacityissue and now he's realizing
that.
There were so many things asfirm owners you think in your
head, but you never communicateto your client list.
You never communicate boundarieson when you need documents by
(08:07):
let's say for
KC Brothers (08:09):
accidental, it could be that you're scared or
nervous to say something outloud or like draw that boundary
with that line in the sand.
But there was something you saidlast episode you said, You teach
and preach all the time thatpeople buy clarity, certainty,
(08:29):
and confidence.
Totally.
I love the three C's.
Um, and it's so true becausethis, the wavering ness, the
lack of confidence communicatesso much.
It's like, okay, well, do youknow what you're doing?
If you don't know how tointeract with me, do you know
how to do bookkeeping?
They will instantly jump tothat, even if you are a great
bookkeeper or whatever the casemay be.
(08:50):
Yeah.
Michelle Weinstein (08:52):
And, and I think confidence.
Like people say, Oh, Michelle,you know, what do you really do
here at the abundant accountant?
What's your eight week salesmastery course all about?
And I'm like, I sell giving yourlife back, getting freedom back,
getting time back, getting moneyin your bank account, but
ultimately.
You get confident and that'swhat Lauren got.
(09:14):
I mean, so many brand new firmowners gain confidence just by
having a process.
And I think like for those ofyou doing bookkeeping or taxes,
you're confident in executingthe work cause you got taught a
step by step process for thatelement of executing the
workflow.
But what about the workflow toget money in your bank account?
You signed up and I talked aboutthis on the last episode.
(09:37):
To be a full time entrepreneur,which is a 24 seven sales job.
So you have to learn the art ofenrollment, the, the basic sales
one on one, if you're going toown a business, that's just what
it is.
We're always having to sellourself, but there's so many
other layers to sales and in anaccounting tax bookkeeping,
(09:59):
fractional CFO firm.
That, that are integrated inthat because one of the biggest
challenges for firm owners thathave been around a while is
accounts receivable.
The amount of time people wastechasing money and not getting
paid interest on that money andbeing a free bank just boggles
(10:21):
my mind.
And I've
KC Brothers (10:24):
just, you said something that I've really
started to lean into as we talkabout.
It's just like, you're not abank, quit being one.
You don't need to owe this, whatyou think might be a courtesy,
or I don't know, or maybe it'sjust, um, old practices that
just haven't really beenreconsidered, and like, oh, is
(10:46):
this actually the best way todo, you know, it's just been
practiced for so long.
Michelle Weinstein (10:51):
Yeah, you need to use your product, and
use Canopy, and And use all thetools that you're spending money
on, because that is how youdon't, you don't become a free
bank and all the money thatyou're missing out on, on the
compound interest and all thisother stuff, but just the admin,
(11:12):
some of the people that aresending out invoices and chasing
the money on 30, 60, 90 day oldaccounts.
invoices.
They've got admin people doingthat for them.
And what a waste of payroll whenyou could be doing so much more.
So most, not most, all myclients that work with me, like
Alfredo, he was in our class onTuesday goes, Michelle, this is
(11:34):
like the most relaxed tax seasonI've ever had.
I'm like, great.
That's how it should be all thetime.
you know, when you are ge you'renot going to file till they've,
you're not a finger retur paid.
There's been so man People justlike, you know, if you own a
(11:54):
firm and you're listening, howmany times have you done work
for somebody?
And then they just disappearedon you.
They didn't even take the workthat you did and you didn't get
paid.
Right.
It's, it's like, uh, myboyfriend took his shoes to a
shoe repair and.
He did a really good job, likethree different pairs of shoes.
(12:16):
They look brand new.
And he came back and he's like,do you know that you don't pay
for your shoes until you go pickthem up?
I go, how much stuff does thisguy have at his shop?
Do you know how many peopleprobably drop stuff off and just
completely forget?
That they even dropped anythingoff.
And it's the same for the firmowners that are doing work up
(12:38):
front.
This guy's repairing designerbags, designer shoes, fixing
them all, and has like all thisinventory and no money because
the people have completelyforgot about their stuff.
KC Brothers (12:51):
Okay.
So with that, that's aninteresting example.
Um, because where I want it, Iwanted to talk to you about
like, okay, is, is a way tosolve this AR issue pricing, you
know, just pricing, um, into, orlike just the timing, the way
(13:15):
you price.
Michelle Weinstein (13:15):
Okay.
Yeah.
So there's, well, we'll talkabout the three P's.
Okay.
Last time we talked about threeC's.
Today we'll talk about threeP's.
Number one, you have to priceand figure out what you're going
to charge for the engagement.
If it's a cleanup, if it's abusiness return, if it's
(13:38):
whatever, before you start thework, that's step number one.
Okay.
Because you have to gather thedocuments and know what are you
going to go into?
And KC, it's kind of like.
a doctor going into surgery.
I'll use my boyfriend for anexample, and he had a back
surgery, but the, the surgeon,the orthopedic surgeon would not
(13:59):
see him until he had x raysdone, MRI done, uh, pain
management done, physicaltherapy completed with all the
notes.
Then he saw the surgeon andsaid, okay, you've tried
everything.
I see the problem.
Now we're going to go dosurgery.
So in our world of taxes,bookkeeping, you know,
(14:21):
accounting, CFO work, all that.
We need to see people's.
Tax returns.
We need to see their financials.
We need to see their QuickBooksfiles.
We need to see all of that soyou can diagnose and look at the
x rays and look for where theirsoft tissue areas and other
things that you're going to seeon an MRI or, uh, x ray.
(14:41):
So you can diagnose the problemin your sales meeting.
You're actually coming soprepared to the sales meeting.
You have the engagement letterready.
You have the invoice ready.
You have everything ready to go.
Now, if there's some surprisethat you learn in your sales
meeting, which we have notenough time to talk about how to
do all that right here, um, thenyou can.
(15:02):
You know, make an adjustment orcreate a supplemental invoice at
that time.
But at least in your firstmeeting, you're also going to
get number two P is get paid upfront.
Yes.
You're going to get paid in thatsales meeting and you're going
to get assigned engagement.
So that eliminates AR.
It eliminates admin chasingpeople.
It makes you have a much fullerbank account.
(15:24):
You can reinvest those funds ifyou want, maybe, uh, you know,
high yield savings account, orif you need cashflow, at least
you've got it there, but atleast the money's growing and
doing something for you insteadof you being like you said, KC,
a free bank.
Okay.
So you need a price in advance.
You need to get paid up frontand you have to understand the
(15:45):
client's problems.
So when you're going through thex rays and the, MRI and their
QuickBooks and their tax returnsand their financials.
You're looking for problems.
You're looking for mistakes.
You're looking for where there'serrors.
You're being the investigatorsthat you are.
You're actually doing yourcraft.
You're doing what you're reallygood at and figuring out the
problems.
And then a whole nother podcastwe could do is understanding
(16:08):
what questions to ask yourprospect in a sales meeting to
really get to the root of theproblem and why someone would
want to pay you right then andthere to fix it.
So those are the three Ps.
KC Brothers (16:21):
Yes, and you've mentioned doing that, um, I
mean, I'm sure you've got someof it established up front so
that you can communicate it inthe sales meeting.
It seems like the sales meetingis like the crux.
It is.
What?
Michelle Weinstein (16:36):
It's very important because, um, in the
sales meeting, you can also getpaid up front.
You can get the engagementletter signed, which can also
eliminate being ghosted.
I would say over half or more ofthe firm owners, you send out a
quote, a proposal, and thenyou're like, Oh, I never heard
from them again.
They said they wanted to moveforward.
They said they were going tosign my proposal.
(16:58):
They never paid the invoice.
They never signed it.
You're ghosted.
And then you're wasting all thistime trying to figure out who to
even follow up with because youdon't have a follow up system in
place, which is also part ofyour sales process.
So we want to switch the, theroles.
We want to have clientspractically chasing you down
because they see that you're thebest surgeon for them.
(17:22):
They want to pay you whateverthey asked you, you know,
they're not begging you.
They're just, they see the valuein you and they see what you're
worth and they want to work withyou where most, um, firm owners
feel underappreciated andundervalued and, you know, are
just taken for a free ride.
So we change the script byhaving a sales process in place
(17:47):
and you can do that withoutbeing pushy, without being
salesy, and just having a skillset that, you know, so you can
follow steps, that's all.
Yeah,
KC Brothers (17:57):
and I would say too, a myth that maybe people
might have, or I feel like I'veheard circulated all over, you
know, not just specific toaccountants.
Yep.
But you don't have to be anatural salesperson.
I don't know that that's athing.
Michelle Weinstein (18:12):
You don't need to be a salesperson at all.
You just need to be you.
You just need to follow somesteps,
KC Brothers (18:19):
that's all.
Yeah, yeah, and it goes back toyour three C's with like
confidence.
It's just like, okay, trust inthe process.
You've, you know, slow down tospeed up, right?
You've taken care of those threeP's.
You've looked at, you'veestablished, The pricing,
you're, you have the systems toget paid up front, um, and
(18:41):
you're doing that.
Trust that you are doing that insuch a way that is going to be
beneficial to your business.
Hold true to it.
Right.
And again, like revisit it everyyear or two.
Do you have a recommendationfrom there?
Michelle Weinstein (18:53):
Yep.
I mean, I revisit a salesprocess all the time.
You're always refining.
It's not like it's set in stone,right?
It's going to always ebb andflow.
And you always want to bemeeting with clients all the
time because you want to avoidscope creep.
So you always want a newengagement for every single
(19:14):
client that you have.
So if it's an annual engagement,then make sure you're meeting
with them quarterly, but thenonce a year, you're meeting with
them just to go over whatthey've engaged your firm for,
because that's how you havecontrol over your firm versus.
Your firm running you.
KC Brothers (19:32):
Oh my gosh.
And that last part, like thebusiness doesn't have to run
you.
Michelle Weinstein (19:38):
No.
No, no, you want to have controlover your sales conversations.
You want to have control overhow the firm is run.
You don't, I don't think any ofyou created a firm to just have
a job and feel like, you know,this has just turned into
another job.
No, you want the freedom.
You want the time freedom.
You want the money freedom.
(19:59):
That's really what you want, butit really.
It stems from having a step bystep sales process.
So you can enroll high quality,high paying clients, establish
yourself as a premium, and howcan you do this without losing
any of your current clients, ifyou have current clients and for
those firm owners that are juststarting out, how do you not
(20:20):
make the mistakes that.
So many firm owners have, Imean, I just got off the zoom
with Lauren and she was sayingbefore she had met me, she was
figuring out her pricing bygoing online and looking what
people around her were charging.
And she's like, Oh my God, theirprices were so low and so cheap.
That's why everyone's burnt out,underpaid, and overworked in
(20:41):
that capacity, because you'rejust so cheap.
You're charging the lower amountbased on someone in your area.
Well, to change this industry asa collective, we have to really
get a grip about what are weworth?
What did we invest in ourcareers?
And she said she learned how toprice, and then she said even
the pricing she thought she wasgoing to do was still too low.
(21:03):
So now it's even higher, but nowshe has the confidence.
And when you have theconfidence, anything is possible
because that's how you can stoptrading time for dollars.
You know, you don't want totrade one hour for the X number
of dollars.
We want to start growing a firmon our own terms.
KC Brothers (21:19):
Yes.
Yeah.
Because when you stop seeingyour, the, what you have to
offer them as your time and moreas your expertise, it's not
necessarily about the time youput into it, but the knowledge,
um, and skills you have thatthey don't have.
Because
you are providing them with a value.
(21:41):
You're not providing them withhours.
They are not paying for hours.
They're paying you for anoutcome or an output.
Michelle Weinstein (21:49):
Outcome.
I use outcome all the time, KC.
It's they're paying you for anoutcome for back surgery.
For my boyfriend, he was payingfor the outcome of no pain when
he walked.
That's an outcome.
You know, we're always lookingfor the outcome.
What is the result that youdeliver?
That's what we sell.
We don't sell bookkeeping.
We don't sell a tax return.
We don't sell CFO, fractionalCFO services.
(22:11):
We sell the outcome, you know,peace of mind for a lot of you,
you sell freedom for a lot of.
Taxpayers.
You don't have to worry aboutthe IRS.
You know, those are the outcomesthat you provide your clients.
KC Brothers (22:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think it's a big mental shift,but an important one when it
comes to both, um, pricing yourofferings as well as
understanding.
Okay.
Well, if my input isn't what itused to be, am I, um, being
dishonest?
No, you're not, you know, likeI, I see this with my mom as an
(22:47):
entrepreneur, as she's struggledwith that throughout the years.
It's like, no, mom, they'repaying you for your expertise
and if you have better andrefine it and can do it in less
time, then that means more timefor you.
Yes.
It's more
Michelle Weinstein (23:00):
profit for you.
Yeah.
I mean, Okay.
I want, I want, it's like thething you've probably seen on
social media and Facebook withthe plumber.
You know, there's the guys thatcome and take hours, try to fix
the problem.
There's the guy that comes in,takes two seconds and charges
you a couple grand when theother guys took a few hours and
we're going to charge you 600.
I rather have the person comein, fix the problem, get the
(23:24):
hell out of here.
And I pay him a lot of money todo that because he's had a lot
of experience trying to figureit out.
KC Brothers (23:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, I do want to in our lastcouple of minutes, just because
that sales meeting seems to belike this big deal breaker.
Do you have a formula, anoutline, recommendations for,
You know, how long should itlast?
Can it be on zoom?
Can it be in person?
Can you replace it with a loomvideo?
I've been seeing lots ofrecommendations there.
(23:51):
What things,
Michelle Weinstein (23:53):
no human connection.
I mean, well, in the way that Iteach it's relationship based
selling, so you have to havephone conversations and the way
I teach, and you know, if youwant to dive deep into this, you
can book a call with me and myteam at theabundantcall.
com and we'll go through whatyou're currently doing in your
firm.
Figure out the gaps in yourcurrent sales process and then
(24:16):
At least you'll know exactlywhat to fix.
And then if some of you want ourhelp, we can talk about that
too, but go to the abundantcall.
com.
But as far as all the steps,like you can't do it on loom.
I don't recommend it on zoombecause once you work with me,
you're going to have all sortsof notes and things.
And then you can't be presentwith your client because
(24:39):
actually sales is about a skillof listening.
And so in order to listen, Ineed to close the eyes and close
that off and not pretend we'regoing to look at someone on
video and just do things on thephone.
So that's what me and my teamdo.
Everything is on the phone untilwe actually Start working with
you.
Then we're on zoom.
Um, so I don't believe in inperson meetings, no loom and no,
(25:04):
no video meetings, everythingshould be on the phone because
that's the only way you canreally become a really great
listener.
And the sales meeting 99 percentof it is a listening skillset
and listening for key thingsthat I would teach you.
So that's my, um, two cents, uh,for.
(25:26):
Typically a bookkeeping client,a cleanup project, CFO, uh,
accounting client.
You'll need an hour if it's justa tax return.
That's kind of a take it orleave it conversation once you
come up with your boundaries andyour prices and your minimum so
that that conversation goes alittle bit easier, but.
It's all about how do you haveevery single call go smooth like
(25:48):
butter.
You've got to be prepared.
And, um, KC, we don't have timeto talk about all steps.
Cause there's 15 steps to myprocess and a one hour meeting.
Um, but I do know that once.
You've gone through the processand you have the confidence and
you understand it.
You will definitely get paidyour worth and you're going to
get paid based on the value ofyour expertise and that your
(26:10):
bank account and you will bevery happy and less stressed and
less frustrated and less angry.
KC Brothers (26:18):
Yeah, what you said.
I think that's a great, greatway to wrap it up.
Yeah.
Michelle Weinstein (26:23):
For sure.
There's
KC Brothers (26:24):
just, there's, there is so
Michelle Weinstein (26:26):
much.
KC Brothers (26:27):
Yes, the grass is in fact greener on the other
side of this.
Michelle Weinstein (26:32):
Once you have a sales process.
KC Brothers (26:35):
Yes, because on the other side of this sales process
um, workshop, right?
Yes.
The grass is greener.
You can decrease hours.
You can become more profitable.
It is, it's not too good to betrue.
It's not,
Michelle Weinstein (26:52):
and you can eliminate the guesswork, you
know, I think there's just somuch, or like Lauren called it,
she would just like wing it.
She had no idea what to do orwhat to say.
And the stress and the anxietyof that just really creeps in on
you.
So you can have the financialfreedom that you want.
That you've probably alwaysdreamt of, and you don't have to
(27:13):
chase anyone down for paymentsever again.
All of that is 100 percentpossible, and I've seen it with
many firm owners.
Yeah.
KC Brothers (27:23):
Well, thank you
Michelle Weinstein (27:24):
again, Michelle.
Awesome.
Well, thank you so much forhaving me, and hopefully we can
talk to a few of you.
Again, you can go totheabundantcall.
com to schedule that, and wewould love to talk to you about
how to take control over yourfirm and have control over your
sales conversations.
KC Brothers (27:40):
Matt, if you didn't just realize that she just sold
you, then you've missed thewhole conversation.
Like, that was so succinct.
Yeah.
so
Michelle Weinstein (27:50):
much for having me, KC.
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