February 19, 2025 • 28 mins
In this episode of the Practice Success Podcast, executive coach and talent management consultant Kristy Busija shares insights on modern hiring strategies and how companies can adapt to today’s evolving workforce. From leveraging social media in recruitment to embracing fractional work Kristy offers advice for firms struggling with talent shortages.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nicole McMillan (00:05):
Hi, I'm Nicole McMillan, Canopy Senior Vice
President of People, and yourguest host on today's episode of
Practice Success Podcast.
Joining me today is ExecutiveCoach and Talent Management
Consultant, Christy Boussia.
Oh goodness, I didn't say thatright.
Busea, there we go.
Christy Busea.
(00:25):
And we'll be discussing how toaddress the accounting
industry's talent shortages,making your hiring practices
better and what candidates aremaybe not telling you, but you
probably ought to know.
Christy, thank you so much forbeing here.
We're happy to have you here.
Kristy Busija (00:40):
Thank you for having me.
Happy to be here.
Nicole McMillan (00:42):
So, you may not be aware of this, Christy, but,
um, in the accountingprofession, we're actually
seeing a massive talentshortage.
More people are retiring,leaving the profession
altogether and choosing othercareers than are actually coming
in.
Um, and with our audience beinglargely accounting
professionals, do you have anythoughts on dealing with a
(01:06):
talent shortage generally,regardless of the industry?
Kristy Busija (01:10):
Oh, yeah.
Um, we see this all the time.
Um, it's so one thing.
So overall, I would say is thatwe have to, we really just have
to start looking at things fromhigher of a hiring perspective
with a fresh set of eyes.
What worked for us 20 years agois 100 percent not going to work
for us anymore.
So the, the talent coming intothe workforce is, um, they are,
(01:33):
they're taught different things.
They're trained different ways.
They're different expectations.
So that means we asorganizations have to evolve in
how we find them, how we attractthem, how we retain them.
And we have to change a littleso that we can embrace them and
bring them in.
Nicole McMillan (01:51):
Yeah.
That's a really greatperspective.
Um, and inside the accountingindustry, we see a lot of people
who have run their practice for,you know, 20 plus years.
And so, um, they've probablybeen around for a long time and
may be pretty comfortable withwhat we saw in the workplace 20,
10 years ago.
(02:13):
Um, but we're just seeing acompletely different generation
entering the workforce now.
And what they want is different.
So, um, yeah, well, let's talkfor a minute about Starting that
search.
Let's say someone is looking forsome candidates.
They want to get, get a fewroles filled.
Where would you direct them tostart looking for these
(02:36):
candidates, especially, youknow, maybe some of these
younger, younger generations?
Where do we find them?
Kristy Busija (02:43):
Well, we have to start hanging out where they're
hanging out, and that is, andthat is not in a newspaper, and
that is not, and, and I, I hateto say it's not even, uh, most
of the time on LinkedIn, it'splaces like Instagram, Facebook,
Facebook, TikTok, um, any placewhere they are, where they're
getting their information,they're posting, they're,
(03:03):
they're learning, where they'regrowing, that's where we have to
find them.
Nicole McMillan (03:07):
Okay.
Yeah, that's really helpful.
Um, and I think even in the lastthree to five years we've seen a
pretty big evolution in wherethose professional job
candidates are living.
Do you have any suggestions forwhen, you know, when these
employers are out there lookingwhat they can do on their side
(03:29):
in terms of how they presentthemselves to maybe Catch the
eye of some of those candidatesand stand out a little bit.
Kristy Busija (03:38):
Um, well, the things that we have seen working
really well is that, um, uh,it's, it's demonstrating that,
that your culture is different.
So you have to, you can't just,we can no longer just tell
people we're different.
You can't just say, we have afantastic culture to work.
We're different.
You have to really show it.
(03:58):
So whether that is, um, youknow, posting a video or having
your employees post videos ofhow, of how they love to work
there, um, or even your clienttestimonials of how they enjoy
working with, with theiraccountants and with the people
there that actually speaks morevolumes now than ever before.
(04:19):
So you want to try to.
Grab them and show them, notjust tell them anymore.
Nicole McMillan (04:24):
That's great.
Um, and I feel like employersare now kind of in glass houses,
right?
There's no hiding, you know,what, what they are is out
there.
And there's not, you know,there's not a lot of buffer
between what a normal.
inside of a company or a firm.
And I mean, people talk abouttheir work experiences pretty
(04:46):
openly on forums like Glassdoorand Reddit.
Uh, I don't know if you have anythoughts about that.
Kristy Busija (04:53):
Yeah, we actually, one of our clients
right now we're working withbecause they, they, um, we're
looking at their Glassdoorratings compared to their
competitors and they're notlooking so great.
And so we're, we're, we're,we're talking to them about how
in the world can you get moreinformation about The great
company and the great cultureand the things you're doing.
Cause I see it.
(05:14):
You need the, everybody elseneeds to see it, but it's not
reflective of what's out therebecause that is the first place
candidates are going to, they'retold to go to glass door, to
read it, to reach out to peopleon LinkedIn and ask if they can
pick their brain about what it'slike to work there, they're told
to go get information and theyare getting it, they are
(05:37):
definitely getting it.
So give them more.
Of the goods and more.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Nicole McMillan (05:43):
And it seems like what goes out there tends
to be, you know, a reallydisgruntled or maybe grumpy
person a lot of the time.
Kristy Busija (05:50):
Yeah.
Nicole McMillan (05:51):
And so maybe proactively asking people who
work in your company who, youknow, have been there and are
happy and have great things tosay to get on Glassdoor and
leave a review.
Um, could that be helpful?
Kristy Busija (06:03):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
You want to, you want to startencouraging more of, um, with
sharing the positive, not justsharing the negative.
I mean, our brains are wired tofocus on the negative and think
about the negative.
I mean, it's, it's psychology101 back in the day.
If we didn't, if we didn'tactually watch our environment,
we would die.
Sabre toothed tiger will comeget us.
(06:23):
Our brains are not wired to lookfor the positive, so we need to
start anchoring it on more ofthe good things that are
happening, and what, and whatthe company is doing.
Um, everything from treatingtheir employees, to social
impact, to community impact, to,um, everything that's happening
out there, start posting aboutit.
Nicole McMillan (06:44):
That's so great.
I love that.
Um, and I think it's reallyinteresting as well.
Every company is a littledifferent.
They have a unique culture.
They want a certain kind ofemployee.
And I think it's also anopportunity for them to say.
And this is how we work.
This is what our culture islike, and you should consider
(07:06):
that and make sure it's a goodfit for the candidate just as
much as making sure that thecandidate is a good fit for the
company so that if they have areally specific perspective
about what they want from theirwork experience, they don't show
up and are met with a culturethat just doesn't work for them.
It gives this a really greatopportunity for them to evaluate
(07:26):
and opt out if they're like,Hey, it's, you know, small team.
You get to wear lots of hats,learn lots of things, but you
know, it means it can be alittle intense at times.
That may not be the right fitfor every candidate, but it
might be a really great fit forsome of the candidates.
Kristy Busija (07:41):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And I would say, um, companiesneed to be more transparent and,
um, I would say confident inowning what their culture is and
what their culture isn't becausenot every culture is going to be
somebody's cup of tea and that'sokay.
You will attract your right fitcandidate and right fit
(08:02):
employee.
And that's, that's a beautifulthing when you get that match
right.
But what I see a lot of and usedto see a lot of is talking about
what the culture is, but it isnot that at all, at all.
So just be real about what yourexpectations are and you will
find the right candidate.
Nicole McMillan (08:22):
Yeah, I love that, um, bringing in the wrong,
the wrong person and having tomake a change.
It's very expensive.
It takes a ton of time out ofthe organization, especially
when a company is already prettystrapped for talent.
And so sometimes it's better togo a little slower and get to
the right person than make aquick hire.
That's maybe not a good fit forthe work environment and have to
(08:45):
deal with that months down theroad.
Kristy Busija (08:47):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And we know, we all know beingon both sides of the table that
it's stressful to interviewcandidates and it's stressful to
be interviewed.
And so the more open andtransparent we can all get about
that on both sides of the fence,then we can, then we can short
circuit some of that process andmake sure that we're getting it
(09:07):
right and not doing a dance thatlater we have to undo.
Absolutely.
Um,
Nicole McMillan (09:13):
Are you seeing anything in the world of kind of
job descriptions that talk aboutthat or anything that's like
positioning maybe companywebsite or a LinkedIn profile if
the if the company doesn't havea big employer page for their
(09:34):
website?
What are you seeing that helpsarticulate?
What the company is and what therole will be like.
Kristy Busija (09:41):
Oh, we're seeing, well, we're, um, progressive
companies are starting to get,um, starting to use, um, more
like day in the life of here'swhat it's like to work here.
Here's what your day is like,and it's.
It's either normal or notnormal, or it's all of the
above, or what, um, or seeing,you know, that working from home
(10:02):
or working from wherever theremote option, but actually
physically seeing what that dayis.
So that people understand moreabout what are the expectations.
Oh wait, I can, I can workremotely or I can't work
remotely.
What are, what, where am I goingto be?
What am I going to be doing allthe time?
Um, we are starting to see lessof the generalities and job
(10:26):
descriptions of this is ourgreat, we're a great place to
work.
But they're getting verydetailed in why they're a great
place to work.
So it's, it's starting with thewhy we were not just because we
have a great office environmentor flexible work hours or all
the, all the goodies that wegive or great 401k, it's all the
intangibles that we're allrelating to.
(10:47):
So it's, you know, we value therelationship with, you know,
with, with you, your, you andyour boss, we have a great
development program.
We're seeing more of thatembedded in the job description
so that people see that theycould have a future and can
grow.
And we're also starting to see alittle bit more of, um, um, a
(11:09):
little bit around like, andit's, it's very unique.
But I've seen where we know thatyou're, this may not be your
final home, but we are happy tohave you on this part of your
journey.
Nicole McMillan (11:19):
I love that.
That's great.
Yeah.
We don't see people stay atcompanies for 20 years anymore.
Um, and I would imagine thatthat's probably not what a
candidate might be looking foreither.
Yeah, absolutely.
Maybe that's a great place forus to pivot.
(11:39):
I would love to hear some ofyour insights.
Um, on what candidates might bethinking, and they're not
telling employers, but, butthese employers should know.
Absolutely.
Kristy Busija (11:51):
Well, they're telling me, so I will tell you.
Absolutely.
Give you the inside scoop.
Um, they're wanting, they arewanting, um, flexibility.
So.
And I'm not, I'm not justtalking flexibility in terms of,
I want, you know, I, I want tobe able to log off at a certain
time and never work.
They do want to work.
They are very hardworkingindividuals, but they want
(12:14):
flexibility, meaning that Icould, um, if I, if I need to go
to a doctor's appointment, I'mnot asking permission.
I'm just do, I'm scheduling itas part of my work.
Um, if I want to work from thebeach one day, I can do that.
And it's not going to be seen asa negative thing.
Um, if, you know, I.
You know, it's actually, they'reasking for exactly what's
(12:35):
something I have in my emailsignature that my working hours
are not necessarily yours, sodon't feel free to respond if
these are not during yourworking hours that they're,
they're, they're wantingcompanies to be respectful or
mindful of that.
You may actually be moreproductive at a different time
of day and how do you, how canyou accommodate that?
(12:56):
Um, and the big thing that weare really seeing that they're
really talking about is I reallywant to be myself.
How the heck can I be myself inthis environment?
And are you going to, are youreally, really going to embrace
me?
Are you going to put me in a boxwhen I get there?
And that they really want toknow that from you and they
(13:18):
really want to know that you'vethat you've actually created
that culture environment wherethat everybody around me is
going to embrace me and supportme as well.
Nicole McMillan (13:26):
That is really interesting to hear.
Um, I would imagine that we'reseeing this, this theme a little
more strongly with.
Some of our younger generationspecifically that that Gen Z's
those who are graduating fromcollege and entering the
workforce, they want thatflexibility.
They want to be able to show upand be who they are and and be
(13:47):
able to be accepted and fillthat inclusion in the work
environment.
Kristy Busija (13:51):
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, and it comes from, Nicole,it comes from, if you look at
the way that we grew up and whatwas around us in our
environment, it's totallydifferent.
They grew up in social media.
They grew up with, with, withembracing people for who they
are, for understanding that,that, that, you know, you're
beautiful the way you're createdand just be you, right?
(14:13):
Just be you.
And.
So we, you know, that's thatthey're expecting it because
that's all that they know orwhat they've been.
They've been, you know, I mean,I was even chatting with a
colleague the other day that,um, the way that we even that
they're learning is different.
So they learn, you know, Iwalked into a great chance to
work with, um, with our localelementary school, you know, I
(14:35):
grew up individual seats.
Raise your hand.
They grow up in elementary andliterally in kindergarten,
sitting at table teams, workingin table groups, working in
teams.
So the way that they think istotally different than the way
we think because of what theenvironment we grew up in.
So everything's on display forthem because they're, they're
(14:56):
used to it.
So how do we help them show upauthentically?
In that work environment andembrace that and how do we
change so that we can also startto show up a little bit more
authentically ourselves.
Nicole McMillan (15:11):
I love that.
That's so great.
Um, so when we have thesecandidates and they're coming
into our company and we'reonboarding them, um, is there
anything that we can do as anemployer to help them?
Understand the expectations andfor us to understand what they
need to be uniquely them.
Kristy Busija (15:33):
Absolutely.
Um, and this one's gonna, it'sgonna sound very cliche and it's
an old school concept.
It's communication,communication, communication,
right?
So onboarding is.
It's um, and making it a two waystreet on that communication
channel.
So um, um, being very clear inwhat the expectations are, but
(15:53):
truly asking for that feedbackin return of, um, tell me a
little bit about you, yourstyle, what you, what, you know,
how do you thrive?
What environments do you thrivein?
Um, what help do you need?
Um, do you, you know, uh, how doyou prefer to be communicated
with?
Um, we, so in our, you know,with our team, we actually do a
(16:14):
couple different assessments sothat we can understand how we're
all wired.
We share them across the boardso that we understand how best
to communicate with each other.
And then we can createstrategies for how we put things
in place so that we're allsuccessful.
I really strongly recommenddoing that.
And then when you're walkingthrough expectations doing those
check ins to say, um, help me,you know, can you help me walk?
(16:38):
Can you help me to understandwhat you need to feel supported
as you're learning and growing?
Because we don't want you tofeel like you're out there by
yourself and have to, you're inthe deep end and you're, you
don't have your floaties andyou're, and you're going to sink
or swim.
We want you to be successful.
So what do you need and how canwe help?
Nicole McMillan (16:57):
That's really helpful.
I love that.
Um, one of the pieces of adviceI give a lot of managers that I
work with is, you know, Givethem your operating manual too.
So they understand where you'recoming from.
You know, a lot of, a lot ofpeople we work with have
families and so they might leavetheir work day at five, go do
(17:18):
family things, and then maybethey jump on later at night.
And so we use Slack and othermessaging, messaging systems
quite a bit in our workplace,and they may be jamming away at
nine or 10 o'clock at nightbecause it's what they like to
do and it works for their familycircumstance, but being able to
tell new hires, Hey.
Sometimes I get on at night inthe evening and I I'm dropping
(17:40):
messages.
I never expect you to respond ifit's urgent.
I will text you.
So just know there's nopressure.
Even if it's after hours, thisis just who I am and how I like
to work.
And I kind of get a cool burstof energy really late in the
evening.
Um, or.
You know, whatever, whatever itis actually for that person,
just kind of sharing with themlike this is how I work, but I
(18:03):
don't have any expectationattached to it can be really,
really helpful and it avoidssome like friction and and
frustration where people feellike maybe they're being asked
to grind nonstop where we're soconnected as company anymore.
Kristy Busija (18:17):
Yeah.
I'm glad that you're sharingthat with managers, um, because,
um, and that's the, and that'sthe trend that we're seeing is
that, um, the generations cominginto the workforce are looking
at us at leaders and saying, ifI have to be that or do that,
or, or duplicate what you'redoing now, I'm going to opt out.
That is not my path.
(18:38):
But if we can startcommunicating that no, actually
it's.
It's because of my style and mypreferences that it's my choice
and I 100 percent respect yourchoice that you do not need to
work at 9, 10, 11.
It's just when my brain is atits highest productivity level.
Or five, six in the morning,it's at as high as productivity,
(19:01):
productivity level, right?
Nicole McMillan (19:03):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Do you have any other thoughtsabout what, what candidates
might be thinking that they'renot sharing with, with
companies?
Kristy Busija (19:11):
Yes, I do.
Um, they are usually, sonowadays we are, um, it's It's,
it's no longer I hold one joband I only have one job.
So candidates, typically youmay, they, well, they, they may,
you, they may already have a joband are looking for the second
job to continue to supplementall of that.
And so just understanding andknowing that this could be
(19:35):
another gig that is happening atthe same time.
And so, um, that's a mind shiftthat we all have to make that as
long as the work is gettingdone, the work is getting done
and being clear as to it's notthe number of hours in the day.
It's the volume and body of thework that needs to get done and
taken care of.
Um, and then they are also they,um.
(19:58):
They're interviewing with many,many places and they're pitting
you against the company next toyou.
So, you really, really have todouble down and put your best
foot forward.
Consider this the datingscenario where you really want
to, you want to get that seconddate, third date, and finally a
commitment.
But don't, but also don't overindex on, um, you know, the, um,
(20:24):
We're amazing is awesome.
And it's great.
They are seeing through that andthey are immediately flagging
you as fake.
And so, um, that I think thoseare some of the things that I
would that they are at leastthey're telling me you're
telling our team behind thescenes.
Nicole McMillan (20:40):
Yeah.
That makes a lot of sense andthey will fact check, right?
They're going 100
Kristy Busija (20:45):
percent fact check you.
They are going out, they areGoogling you, LinkedIn, um,
checking on you or they'rechecking reviews, Reddit,
Glassdoor, every place that theycan, um, and they're looking and
they're looking it up.
Nicole McMillan (20:58):
Yeah.
Um, I wanted to go back to apoint that you made about like.
When the work gets done is maybeless important than the work
just getting done.
I'm curious your thoughts whenit comes to customer or client
facing roles that do require acertain amount of.
(21:20):
availability during normalbusiness hours.
Do you have any thoughts howemployers can be flexible, but
also meet the needs of theirclients?
Kristy Busija (21:29):
I, I, um, this is, it's going to sound overly
simplistic.
I think they just need to setthat expectation that these are
our core hours that we need youto work during.
That you have to be clientfacing because our clients, this
is a promise that we've made orcommitment we've made to our
clients.
Everything outside of that isthe flexible areas.
Um, some firms have moreflexibility or the ability to,
(21:52):
you know, but some don't.
And so you want to, you want toreally be very explicit about
where your points of, um, pointsof negotiation are and where
everything is just set.
Nicole McMillan (22:05):
Transparency and communication are key,
right?
Kristy Busija (22:07):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Nicole McMillan (22:09):
Yeah.
Do you have any other thoughtsabout, uh, what candidates might
be thinking?
Anything else you wanted toshare with our audience?
Kristy Busija (22:18):
Well, it's a, it's for a different generation
or a different pocket forcandidates to, um, that I think
the audience needs to know.
There's a whole group ofcandidates out there that
perhaps aren't getting tappedinto as much as they could, but
they are.
They're amazing workers, theyare very dedicated workers, and
they're, and they're pretty easyto find, and these are the,
(22:42):
these are the, um, a lot of itare, I, I just think about the
mom project or the Facebookgroups.
These are those who arereturning back into the work
that are amazing professionals.
They don't want the, they don'twant the grind that they had
before and they just, but theyjust want to get back into the
workforce doing the amazing workthat they did.
I would, I would tap into thosemarkets.
(23:05):
Because with all the things thatare happening out there in the
job market, we've had so manylayoffs that have been
announced, um, so manytransitions.
You want to really look to getand get creative where you're
looking for that talent.
So the next time that you seethat article that this company
laid off, workers.
Guess what?
Mine, that data, especiallybecause you may have some great
(23:28):
candidates that you can grab.
Nicole McMillan (23:30):
Yeah.
I have been surprised the amountof loyalty it generates to give
somebody a chance.
So somebody has taken a careerbreak for whatever reason.
They just need a step back intothe workplace and the loyalty
and the hustle they're willingto offer is just like.
Yeah, it's incredible.
(23:51):
And they're so grateful.
Um, yeah, I wonder, um, if weever looked into it, if we'd
find like performance andoutput, like, does it look
different for somebody who, whohad to work really hard to get
themselves back into theworkplace and, and they're very
appreciative of thoseopportunities.
(24:12):
I hear a research study comingon.
I think that that would
Kristy Busija (24:14):
be a
Nicole McMillan (24:14):
great one to do.
It would be really interestingto see for sure.
Yeah.
Is there, is there any otherthoughts you have on, on this
topic?
Or do you feel like you've beenable to share the that you've
heard that candidates arethinking about.
Kristy Busija (24:33):
So there's one thing that keeps coming back up
and it's, it's definitely, it'smore and more in the space.
It's, um, the fractional workthat I've rethinking that it has
to be full time, a full timeperson that accomplishes that
job.
A lot of people are doing a lotof fractional work and they're,
and they're piecing togethermultiple fractional roles.
(24:54):
So, and that provides maximumflexibility, availability, all
of that.
And you're still getting thework done.
So maybe rethinking or lookinginto do, can we break this job
into, into, you know, differentbite sized pieces so that we
offer it to different, a wholegroup of people versus, um, just
one.
Nicole McMillan (25:14):
That could be a really interesting way to expand
the candidate pool for theseaccounting firms where they
don't feel like they have accessto enough.
They can widen that candidatepool by having an opportunity
for someone who isn't maybeready for a 40 or 50 hour a week
role, but would love 20 to 30hours.
(25:34):
Um, and there's, you know,there's some cost savings as
well with not having to have allof the ancillary benefits that
come with a full time employer.
Or an employee and it could be,um, interesting and cost
effective as well.
Kristy Busija (25:48):
And if you think about it, even, you know, even
out, you know, so my accountant,she's, she's fractional.
She doesn't, she doesn't do thisjust for us.
She does more than just this.
She does fractional, you know,CFO stuff.
She does fractional, her firmdoes fractional tax stuff.
Like there's all kinds of thingsthat she does and it's
fractional.
(26:09):
And so how do you and her samewith her team?
Her team is not full time.
Nicole McMillan (26:14):
Yeah.
Um, and, you know, kind of goingback to like the scheduling, if
you're working, let's say, youknow, 20 to 30 hours, you.
Work with those clients you'reworking with in the hours that
make sense in a normal workschedule.
And then it gives themflexibility for, you know, other
things they've got going on intheir life.
(26:35):
And it gives them thatflexibility this generation's
looking for as well.
Kristy Busija (26:39):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And, um, and it also with, sincewe are so virtual nowadays, it
allows you to broaden your, yourclient base.
So, um, you don't have to be inthe same city, the same state,
the same time zone as your, asyour clients.
So it does give you moreflexibility from that
(26:59):
perspective.
Nicole McMillan (27:00):
Yeah, that's really helpful.
Um, I think that this has beensuch a great discussion.
There've been some really great,uh, little nuggets there that
hopefully our listeners can takefrom making sure they are
showing up where the candidatesare and it's, it's not where it
used to be.
So figure that out and make surethat you're there and make sure
(27:24):
that you're being transparentabout who you are and the kind
of people that you.
I think we'll be successful inyour work environment.
Um.
And do a little bit of thinkingabout what you actually really
need for your work environmentto be successful because we can
be a lot more flexible than,than we used to be able to given
technology.
Um, and I, I know you talked alittle bit about, um,
(27:49):
flexibility, fractional work.
Um, definitely some of thosethings will be really helpful
too, as firms ramping up forthe, the next year as well and
hiring more people.
Um, Yeah.
This has been such a greatconversation, Christy.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
(28:10):
And if our listeners want tolearn more about you or the work
that you've been doing, whereshould they go?
Kristy Busija (28:17):
Absolutely.
They should just check us out atnextconversationconsulting.
com or, uh,nextconversationconsulting.
com.
Look me up on LinkedIn, ChristyBuccia on LinkedIn.
I think I'm the only one outthere.
Nicole McMillan (28:30):
Okay, perfect.
Fantastic.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
And that's all we have for youtoday.
Thank
Kristy Busija (28:37):
you for having me.
Hi, I'm Nicole McMillan, Canopy Senior Vice
President of People, and yourguest host on today's episode of
Practice Success Podcast.
Joining me today is ExecutiveCoach and Talent Management
Consultant, Christy Boussia.
Oh goodness, I didn't say thatright.
Busea, there we go.
Christy Busea.
(00:25):
And we'll be discussing how toaddress the accounting
industry's talent shortages,making your hiring practices
better and what candidates aremaybe not telling you, but you
probably ought to know.
Christy, thank you so much forbeing here.
We're happy to have you here.
Kristy Busija (00:40):
Thank you for having me.
Happy to be here.
Nicole McMillan (00:42):
So, you may not be aware of this, Christy, but,
um, in the accountingprofession, we're actually
seeing a massive talentshortage.
More people are retiring,leaving the profession
altogether and choosing othercareers than are actually coming
in.
Um, and with our audience beinglargely accounting
professionals, do you have anythoughts on dealing with a
(01:06):
talent shortage generally,regardless of the industry?
Kristy Busija (01:10):
Oh, yeah.
Um, we see this all the time.
Um, it's so one thing.
So overall, I would say is thatwe have to, we really just have
to start looking at things fromhigher of a hiring perspective
with a fresh set of eyes.
What worked for us 20 years agois 100 percent not going to work
for us anymore.
So the, the talent coming intothe workforce is, um, they are,
(01:33):
they're taught different things.
They're trained different ways.
They're different expectations.
So that means we asorganizations have to evolve in
how we find them, how we attractthem, how we retain them.
And we have to change a littleso that we can embrace them and
bring them in.
Nicole McMillan (01:51):
Yeah.
That's a really greatperspective.
Um, and inside the accountingindustry, we see a lot of people
who have run their practice for,you know, 20 plus years.
And so, um, they've probablybeen around for a long time and
may be pretty comfortable withwhat we saw in the workplace 20,
10 years ago.
(02:13):
Um, but we're just seeing acompletely different generation
entering the workforce now.
And what they want is different.
So, um, yeah, well, let's talkfor a minute about Starting that
search.
Let's say someone is looking forsome candidates.
They want to get, get a fewroles filled.
Where would you direct them tostart looking for these
(02:36):
candidates, especially, youknow, maybe some of these
younger, younger generations?
Where do we find them?
Kristy Busija (02:43):
Well, we have to start hanging out where they're
hanging out, and that is, andthat is not in a newspaper, and
that is not, and, and I, I hateto say it's not even, uh, most
of the time on LinkedIn, it'splaces like Instagram, Facebook,
Facebook, TikTok, um, any placewhere they are, where they're
getting their information,they're posting, they're,
(03:03):
they're learning, where they'regrowing, that's where we have to
find them.
Nicole McMillan (03:07):
Okay.
Yeah, that's really helpful.
Um, and I think even in the lastthree to five years we've seen a
pretty big evolution in wherethose professional job
candidates are living.
Do you have any suggestions forwhen, you know, when these
employers are out there lookingwhat they can do on their side
(03:29):
in terms of how they presentthemselves to maybe Catch the
eye of some of those candidatesand stand out a little bit.
Kristy Busija (03:38):
Um, well, the things that we have seen working
really well is that, um, uh,it's, it's demonstrating that,
that your culture is different.
So you have to, you can't just,we can no longer just tell
people we're different.
You can't just say, we have afantastic culture to work.
We're different.
You have to really show it.
(03:58):
So whether that is, um, youknow, posting a video or having
your employees post videos ofhow, of how they love to work
there, um, or even your clienttestimonials of how they enjoy
working with, with theiraccountants and with the people
there that actually speaks morevolumes now than ever before.
(04:19):
So you want to try to.
Grab them and show them, notjust tell them anymore.
Nicole McMillan (04:24):
That's great.
Um, and I feel like employersare now kind of in glass houses,
right?
There's no hiding, you know,what, what they are is out
there.
And there's not, you know,there's not a lot of buffer
between what a normal.
inside of a company or a firm.
And I mean, people talk abouttheir work experiences pretty
(04:46):
openly on forums like Glassdoorand Reddit.
Uh, I don't know if you have anythoughts about that.
Kristy Busija (04:53):
Yeah, we actually, one of our clients
right now we're working withbecause they, they, um, we're
looking at their Glassdoorratings compared to their
competitors and they're notlooking so great.
And so we're, we're, we're,we're talking to them about how
in the world can you get moreinformation about The great
company and the great cultureand the things you're doing.
Cause I see it.
(05:14):
You need the, everybody elseneeds to see it, but it's not
reflective of what's out therebecause that is the first place
candidates are going to, they'retold to go to glass door, to
read it, to reach out to peopleon LinkedIn and ask if they can
pick their brain about what it'slike to work there, they're told
to go get information and theyare getting it, they are
(05:37):
definitely getting it.
So give them more.
Of the goods and more.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Nicole McMillan (05:43):
And it seems like what goes out there tends
to be, you know, a reallydisgruntled or maybe grumpy
person a lot of the time.
Kristy Busija (05:50):
Yeah.
Nicole McMillan (05:51):
And so maybe proactively asking people who
work in your company who, youknow, have been there and are
happy and have great things tosay to get on Glassdoor and
leave a review.
Um, could that be helpful?
Kristy Busija (06:03):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
You want to, you want to startencouraging more of, um, with
sharing the positive, not justsharing the negative.
I mean, our brains are wired tofocus on the negative and think
about the negative.
I mean, it's, it's psychology101 back in the day.
If we didn't, if we didn'tactually watch our environment,
we would die.
Sabre toothed tiger will comeget us.
(06:23):
Our brains are not wired to lookfor the positive, so we need to
start anchoring it on more ofthe good things that are
happening, and what, and whatthe company is doing.
Um, everything from treatingtheir employees, to social
impact, to community impact, to,um, everything that's happening
out there, start posting aboutit.
Nicole McMillan (06:44):
That's so great.
I love that.
Um, and I think it's reallyinteresting as well.
Every company is a littledifferent.
They have a unique culture.
They want a certain kind ofemployee.
And I think it's also anopportunity for them to say.
And this is how we work.
This is what our culture islike, and you should consider
(07:06):
that and make sure it's a goodfit for the candidate just as
much as making sure that thecandidate is a good fit for the
company so that if they have areally specific perspective
about what they want from theirwork experience, they don't show
up and are met with a culturethat just doesn't work for them.
It gives this a really greatopportunity for them to evaluate
(07:26):
and opt out if they're like,Hey, it's, you know, small team.
You get to wear lots of hats,learn lots of things, but you
know, it means it can be alittle intense at times.
That may not be the right fitfor every candidate, but it
might be a really great fit forsome of the candidates.
Kristy Busija (07:41):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And I would say, um, companiesneed to be more transparent and,
um, I would say confident inowning what their culture is and
what their culture isn't becausenot every culture is going to be
somebody's cup of tea and that'sokay.
You will attract your right fitcandidate and right fit
(08:02):
employee.
And that's, that's a beautifulthing when you get that match
right.
But what I see a lot of and usedto see a lot of is talking about
what the culture is, but it isnot that at all, at all.
So just be real about what yourexpectations are and you will
find the right candidate.
Nicole McMillan (08:22):
Yeah, I love that, um, bringing in the wrong,
the wrong person and having tomake a change.
It's very expensive.
It takes a ton of time out ofthe organization, especially
when a company is already prettystrapped for talent.
And so sometimes it's better togo a little slower and get to
the right person than make aquick hire.
That's maybe not a good fit forthe work environment and have to
(08:45):
deal with that months down theroad.
Kristy Busija (08:47):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And we know, we all know beingon both sides of the table that
it's stressful to interviewcandidates and it's stressful to
be interviewed.
And so the more open andtransparent we can all get about
that on both sides of the fence,then we can, then we can short
circuit some of that process andmake sure that we're getting it
(09:07):
right and not doing a dance thatlater we have to undo.
Absolutely.
Um,
Nicole McMillan (09:13):
Are you seeing anything in the world of kind of
job descriptions that talk aboutthat or anything that's like
positioning maybe companywebsite or a LinkedIn profile if
the if the company doesn't havea big employer page for their
(09:34):
website?
What are you seeing that helpsarticulate?
What the company is and what therole will be like.
Kristy Busija (09:41):
Oh, we're seeing, well, we're, um, progressive
companies are starting to get,um, starting to use, um, more
like day in the life of here'swhat it's like to work here.
Here's what your day is like,and it's.
It's either normal or notnormal, or it's all of the
above, or what, um, or seeing,you know, that working from home
(10:02):
or working from wherever theremote option, but actually
physically seeing what that dayis.
So that people understand moreabout what are the expectations.
Oh wait, I can, I can workremotely or I can't work
remotely.
What are, what, where am I goingto be?
What am I going to be doing allthe time?
Um, we are starting to see lessof the generalities and job
(10:26):
descriptions of this is ourgreat, we're a great place to
work.
But they're getting verydetailed in why they're a great
place to work.
So it's, it's starting with thewhy we were not just because we
have a great office environmentor flexible work hours or all
the, all the goodies that wegive or great 401k, it's all the
intangibles that we're allrelating to.
(10:47):
So it's, you know, we value therelationship with, you know,
with, with you, your, you andyour boss, we have a great
development program.
We're seeing more of thatembedded in the job description
so that people see that theycould have a future and can
grow.
And we're also starting to see alittle bit more of, um, um, a
(11:09):
little bit around like, andit's, it's very unique.
But I've seen where we know thatyou're, this may not be your
final home, but we are happy tohave you on this part of your
journey.
Nicole McMillan (11:19):
I love that.
That's great.
Yeah.
We don't see people stay atcompanies for 20 years anymore.
Um, and I would imagine thatthat's probably not what a
candidate might be looking foreither.
Yeah, absolutely.
Maybe that's a great place forus to pivot.
(11:39):
I would love to hear some ofyour insights.
Um, on what candidates might bethinking, and they're not
telling employers, but, butthese employers should know.
Absolutely.
Kristy Busija (11:51):
Well, they're telling me, so I will tell you.
Absolutely.
Give you the inside scoop.
Um, they're wanting, they arewanting, um, flexibility.
So.
And I'm not, I'm not justtalking flexibility in terms of,
I want, you know, I, I want tobe able to log off at a certain
time and never work.
They do want to work.
They are very hardworkingindividuals, but they want
(12:14):
flexibility, meaning that Icould, um, if I, if I need to go
to a doctor's appointment, I'mnot asking permission.
I'm just do, I'm scheduling itas part of my work.
Um, if I want to work from thebeach one day, I can do that.
And it's not going to be seen asa negative thing.
Um, if, you know, I.
You know, it's actually, they'reasking for exactly what's
(12:35):
something I have in my emailsignature that my working hours
are not necessarily yours, sodon't feel free to respond if
these are not during yourworking hours that they're,
they're, they're wantingcompanies to be respectful or
mindful of that.
You may actually be moreproductive at a different time
of day and how do you, how canyou accommodate that?
(12:56):
Um, and the big thing that weare really seeing that they're
really talking about is I reallywant to be myself.
How the heck can I be myself inthis environment?
And are you going to, are youreally, really going to embrace
me?
Are you going to put me in a boxwhen I get there?
And that they really want toknow that from you and they
(13:18):
really want to know that you'vethat you've actually created
that culture environment wherethat everybody around me is
going to embrace me and supportme as well.
Nicole McMillan (13:26):
That is really interesting to hear.
Um, I would imagine that we'reseeing this, this theme a little
more strongly with.
Some of our younger generationspecifically that that Gen Z's
those who are graduating fromcollege and entering the
workforce, they want thatflexibility.
They want to be able to show upand be who they are and and be
(13:47):
able to be accepted and fillthat inclusion in the work
environment.
Kristy Busija (13:51):
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, and it comes from, Nicole,it comes from, if you look at
the way that we grew up and whatwas around us in our
environment, it's totallydifferent.
They grew up in social media.
They grew up with, with, withembracing people for who they
are, for understanding that,that, that, you know, you're
beautiful the way you're createdand just be you, right?
(14:13):
Just be you.
And.
So we, you know, that's thatthey're expecting it because
that's all that they know orwhat they've been.
They've been, you know, I mean,I was even chatting with a
colleague the other day that,um, the way that we even that
they're learning is different.
So they learn, you know, Iwalked into a great chance to
work with, um, with our localelementary school, you know, I
(14:35):
grew up individual seats.
Raise your hand.
They grow up in elementary andliterally in kindergarten,
sitting at table teams, workingin table groups, working in
teams.
So the way that they think istotally different than the way
we think because of what theenvironment we grew up in.
So everything's on display forthem because they're, they're
(14:56):
used to it.
So how do we help them show upauthentically?
In that work environment andembrace that and how do we
change so that we can also startto show up a little bit more
authentically ourselves.
Nicole McMillan (15:11):
I love that.
That's so great.
Um, so when we have thesecandidates and they're coming
into our company and we'reonboarding them, um, is there
anything that we can do as anemployer to help them?
Understand the expectations andfor us to understand what they
need to be uniquely them.
Kristy Busija (15:33):
Absolutely.
Um, and this one's gonna, it'sgonna sound very cliche and it's
an old school concept.
It's communication,communication, communication,
right?
So onboarding is.
It's um, and making it a two waystreet on that communication
channel.
So um, um, being very clear inwhat the expectations are, but
(15:53):
truly asking for that feedbackin return of, um, tell me a
little bit about you, yourstyle, what you, what, you know,
how do you thrive?
What environments do you thrivein?
Um, what help do you need?
Um, do you, you know, uh, how doyou prefer to be communicated
with?
Um, we, so in our, you know,with our team, we actually do a
(16:14):
couple different assessments sothat we can understand how we're
all wired.
We share them across the boardso that we understand how best
to communicate with each other.
And then we can createstrategies for how we put things
in place so that we're allsuccessful.
I really strongly recommenddoing that.
And then when you're walkingthrough expectations doing those
check ins to say, um, help me,you know, can you help me walk?
(16:38):
Can you help me to understandwhat you need to feel supported
as you're learning and growing?
Because we don't want you tofeel like you're out there by
yourself and have to, you're inthe deep end and you're, you
don't have your floaties andyou're, and you're going to sink
or swim.
We want you to be successful.
So what do you need and how canwe help?
Nicole McMillan (16:57):
That's really helpful.
I love that.
Um, one of the pieces of adviceI give a lot of managers that I
work with is, you know, Givethem your operating manual too.
So they understand where you'recoming from.
You know, a lot of, a lot ofpeople we work with have
families and so they might leavetheir work day at five, go do
(17:18):
family things, and then maybethey jump on later at night.
And so we use Slack and othermessaging, messaging systems
quite a bit in our workplace,and they may be jamming away at
nine or 10 o'clock at nightbecause it's what they like to
do and it works for their familycircumstance, but being able to
tell new hires, Hey.
Sometimes I get on at night inthe evening and I I'm dropping
(17:40):
messages.
I never expect you to respond ifit's urgent.
I will text you.
So just know there's nopressure.
Even if it's after hours, thisis just who I am and how I like
to work.
And I kind of get a cool burstof energy really late in the
evening.
Um, or.
You know, whatever, whatever itis actually for that person,
just kind of sharing with themlike this is how I work, but I
(18:03):
don't have any expectationattached to it can be really,
really helpful and it avoidssome like friction and and
frustration where people feellike maybe they're being asked
to grind nonstop where we're soconnected as company anymore.
Kristy Busija (18:17):
Yeah.
I'm glad that you're sharingthat with managers, um, because,
um, and that's the, and that'sthe trend that we're seeing is
that, um, the generations cominginto the workforce are looking
at us at leaders and saying, ifI have to be that or do that,
or, or duplicate what you'redoing now, I'm going to opt out.
That is not my path.
(18:38):
But if we can startcommunicating that no, actually
it's.
It's because of my style and mypreferences that it's my choice
and I 100 percent respect yourchoice that you do not need to
work at 9, 10, 11.
It's just when my brain is atits highest productivity level.
Or five, six in the morning,it's at as high as productivity,
(19:01):
productivity level, right?
Nicole McMillan (19:03):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Do you have any other thoughtsabout what, what candidates
might be thinking that they'renot sharing with, with
companies?
Kristy Busija (19:11):
Yes, I do.
Um, they are usually, sonowadays we are, um, it's It's,
it's no longer I hold one joband I only have one job.
So candidates, typically youmay, they, well, they, they may,
you, they may already have a joband are looking for the second
job to continue to supplementall of that.
And so just understanding andknowing that this could be
(19:35):
another gig that is happening atthe same time.
And so, um, that's a mind shiftthat we all have to make that as
long as the work is gettingdone, the work is getting done
and being clear as to it's notthe number of hours in the day.
It's the volume and body of thework that needs to get done and
taken care of.
Um, and then they are also they,um.
(19:58):
They're interviewing with many,many places and they're pitting
you against the company next toyou.
So, you really, really have todouble down and put your best
foot forward.
Consider this the datingscenario where you really want
to, you want to get that seconddate, third date, and finally a
commitment.
But don't, but also don't overindex on, um, you know, the, um,
(20:24):
We're amazing is awesome.
And it's great.
They are seeing through that andthey are immediately flagging
you as fake.
And so, um, that I think thoseare some of the things that I
would that they are at leastthey're telling me you're
telling our team behind thescenes.
Nicole McMillan (20:40):
Yeah.
That makes a lot of sense andthey will fact check, right?
They're going 100
Kristy Busija (20:45):
percent fact check you.
They are going out, they areGoogling you, LinkedIn, um,
checking on you or they'rechecking reviews, Reddit,
Glassdoor, every place that theycan, um, and they're looking and
they're looking it up.
Nicole McMillan (20:58):
Yeah.
Um, I wanted to go back to apoint that you made about like.
When the work gets done is maybeless important than the work
just getting done.
I'm curious your thoughts whenit comes to customer or client
facing roles that do require acertain amount of.
(21:20):
availability during normalbusiness hours.
Do you have any thoughts howemployers can be flexible, but
also meet the needs of theirclients?
Kristy Busija (21:29):
I, I, um, this is, it's going to sound overly
simplistic.
I think they just need to setthat expectation that these are
our core hours that we need youto work during.
That you have to be clientfacing because our clients, this
is a promise that we've made orcommitment we've made to our
clients.
Everything outside of that isthe flexible areas.
Um, some firms have moreflexibility or the ability to,
(21:52):
you know, but some don't.
And so you want to, you want toreally be very explicit about
where your points of, um, pointsof negotiation are and where
everything is just set.
Nicole McMillan (22:05):
Transparency and communication are key,
right?
Kristy Busija (22:07):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Nicole McMillan (22:09):
Yeah.
Do you have any other thoughtsabout, uh, what candidates might
be thinking?
Anything else you wanted toshare with our audience?
Kristy Busija (22:18):
Well, it's a, it's for a different generation
or a different pocket forcandidates to, um, that I think
the audience needs to know.
There's a whole group ofcandidates out there that
perhaps aren't getting tappedinto as much as they could, but
they are.
They're amazing workers, theyare very dedicated workers, and
they're, and they're pretty easyto find, and these are the,
(22:42):
these are the, um, a lot of itare, I, I just think about the
mom project or the Facebookgroups.
These are those who arereturning back into the work
that are amazing professionals.
They don't want the, they don'twant the grind that they had
before and they just, but theyjust want to get back into the
workforce doing the amazing workthat they did.
I would, I would tap into thosemarkets.
(23:05):
Because with all the things thatare happening out there in the
job market, we've had so manylayoffs that have been
announced, um, so manytransitions.
You want to really look to getand get creative where you're
looking for that talent.
So the next time that you seethat article that this company
laid off, workers.
Guess what?
Mine, that data, especiallybecause you may have some great
(23:28):
candidates that you can grab.
Nicole McMillan (23:30):
Yeah.
I have been surprised the amountof loyalty it generates to give
somebody a chance.
So somebody has taken a careerbreak for whatever reason.
They just need a step back intothe workplace and the loyalty
and the hustle they're willingto offer is just like.
Yeah, it's incredible.
(23:51):
And they're so grateful.
Um, yeah, I wonder, um, if weever looked into it, if we'd
find like performance andoutput, like, does it look
different for somebody who, whohad to work really hard to get
themselves back into theworkplace and, and they're very
appreciative of thoseopportunities.
(24:12):
I hear a research study comingon.
I think that that would
Kristy Busija (24:14):
be a
Nicole McMillan (24:14):
great one to do.
It would be really interestingto see for sure.
Yeah.
Is there, is there any otherthoughts you have on, on this
topic?
Or do you feel like you've beenable to share the that you've
heard that candidates arethinking about.
Kristy Busija (24:33):
So there's one thing that keeps coming back up
and it's, it's definitely, it'smore and more in the space.
It's, um, the fractional workthat I've rethinking that it has
to be full time, a full timeperson that accomplishes that
job.
A lot of people are doing a lotof fractional work and they're,
and they're piecing togethermultiple fractional roles.
(24:54):
So, and that provides maximumflexibility, availability, all
of that.
And you're still getting thework done.
So maybe rethinking or lookinginto do, can we break this job
into, into, you know, differentbite sized pieces so that we
offer it to different, a wholegroup of people versus, um, just
one.
Nicole McMillan (25:14):
That could be a really interesting way to expand
the candidate pool for theseaccounting firms where they
don't feel like they have accessto enough.
They can widen that candidatepool by having an opportunity
for someone who isn't maybeready for a 40 or 50 hour a week
role, but would love 20 to 30hours.
(25:34):
Um, and there's, you know,there's some cost savings as
well with not having to have allof the ancillary benefits that
come with a full time employer.
Or an employee and it could be,um, interesting and cost
effective as well.
Kristy Busija (25:48):
And if you think about it, even, you know, even
out, you know, so my accountant,she's, she's fractional.
She doesn't, she doesn't do thisjust for us.
She does more than just this.
She does fractional, you know,CFO stuff.
She does fractional, her firmdoes fractional tax stuff.
Like there's all kinds of thingsthat she does and it's
fractional.
(26:09):
And so how do you and her samewith her team?
Her team is not full time.
Nicole McMillan (26:14):
Yeah.
Um, and, you know, kind of goingback to like the scheduling, if
you're working, let's say, youknow, 20 to 30 hours, you.
Work with those clients you'reworking with in the hours that
make sense in a normal workschedule.
And then it gives themflexibility for, you know, other
things they've got going on intheir life.
(26:35):
And it gives them thatflexibility this generation's
looking for as well.
Kristy Busija (26:39):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And, um, and it also with, sincewe are so virtual nowadays, it
allows you to broaden your, yourclient base.
So, um, you don't have to be inthe same city, the same state,
the same time zone as your, asyour clients.
So it does give you moreflexibility from that
(26:59):
perspective.
Nicole McMillan (27:00):
Yeah, that's really helpful.
Um, I think that this has beensuch a great discussion.
There've been some really great,uh, little nuggets there that
hopefully our listeners can takefrom making sure they are
showing up where the candidatesare and it's, it's not where it
used to be.
So figure that out and make surethat you're there and make sure
(27:24):
that you're being transparentabout who you are and the kind
of people that you.
I think we'll be successful inyour work environment.
Um.
And do a little bit of thinkingabout what you actually really
need for your work environmentto be successful because we can
be a lot more flexible than,than we used to be able to given
technology.
Um, and I, I know you talked alittle bit about, um,
(27:49):
flexibility, fractional work.
Um, definitely some of thosethings will be really helpful
too, as firms ramping up forthe, the next year as well and
hiring more people.
Um, Yeah.
This has been such a greatconversation, Christy.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
(28:10):
And if our listeners want tolearn more about you or the work
that you've been doing, whereshould they go?
Kristy Busija (28:17):
Absolutely.
They should just check us out atnextconversationconsulting.
com or, uh,nextconversationconsulting.
com.
Look me up on LinkedIn, ChristyBuccia on LinkedIn.
I think I'm the only one outthere.
Nicole McMillan (28:30):
Okay, perfect.
Fantastic.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
And that's all we have for youtoday.
Thank
Kristy Busija (28:37):
you for having me.
Popular Podcasts
United States of Kennedy
United States of Kennedy is a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. Every week, hosts Lyra Smith and George Civeris go into one aspect of the Kennedy story.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com