April 30, 2025 • 30 mins
Will Hill emphasizes the importance of integrating advisory services into the accounting practice. He also discusses the impact that good healthy goals have on a firms production. KC and Will conclude the episode with a focus on how production over hours worked can lead firms to achieve both their professional and personal objectives effectively.
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Episode Transcript
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KC Brothers (00:06):
Welcome to another episode of Canopy Practice
Success.
I'm your host, KC Brothers, andI'm here with Will Hill.
Will, go ahead and introduceyourself to our listeners.
Will Hill (00:16):
Well, thank you, KC.
I appreciate you guys having meon today.
And, uh, to the listeners, I amWill Hill, and I've been helping
accounting firms with theirgrowth and processes for the
better part of 25 years, whichmakes me old, KC.
That's all it does, and, uh,it's kind of disappointing.
But, uh I have my own consultingpractice, and I like to live at
(00:36):
the intersection of people andprocess, as they say, and, you
know, we can sit in thelaboratory, define all kinds of
processes and systems well, andwe sprinkle in those pesky
humans, and that's when all thefun starts to happen, and so I
love getting, I love gettinginvolved with that.
That attitude may be jaded bythree kids.
I don't know.
We'll see.
KC Brothers (00:59):
I love it.
Well, and you've got, tell us alittle bit more about your
experience because you've gotquite an experience that makes
you very qualified for theaccounting space.
And then you've pivoted recentlyin the last several years.
Will Hill (01:13):
Yeah, yeah, so I spent, um, the better part of 21
years working at ThompsonReuters, did a lot with, uh,
their training consulting group,um, and working with firms
implementing software, doingbusiness workflow consulting,
helping them with, uh,transitioning their commercial
models to be centered onadvisory, that sort of thing.
(01:33):
Spent some time over there inproduct marketing and product
management as well.
And then I left to go on my ownand just really helping firms
and firm owners that feel stuckand saying, how do I go forward?
Um, being a bit of ears to theprofession and trying to speak
from what I've seen in otherfirms, physically been in over
400 firms over the years, KC,and just kind of seen a lot of
(01:57):
operational things.
And it's been great to be deeplyinvolved with firms.
Put some things into motion, seethe impact and just be a small
part of their success story isjust very rewarding.
KC Brothers (02:08):
Yeah, I mean you're you're would you say you're
closer to them in thisconsulting position rather than
you were in Your position atthompson reuters.
Will Hill (02:18):
Yeah, I I definitely think so and um, you know and
nothing to to knock The oldrole, the old company in any
way.
It's just you have a differentopportunity on your own and you
can get deeper in a lot ofareas.
Um, and it's been fun to dothat.
KC Brothers (02:35):
Yeah.
Well, the reason why I ask isbecause, um, when you're closer
to it, like you end up seeingyour personal impact more and
seeing how the firm changes.
Whereas like you can be at acompany, sell a product, even
selling a service at a company,but you're not following.
That firm throughout theirjourney.
(02:55):
And I'm sure you get to followthese firms through their
journey way more, which I'm sureis just like so fun to see them
transform.
Will Hill (03:04):
And it's, it's great to be able to then go back to
the next firm and say, Hey, I'veseen some of the challenges
you're going to face six months,nine months, a year from now.
How do we prepare for those inadvance?
Are there some obstacles that wecan help you avoid?
Um, as, as I've had to navigatethem with other firms.
So,
KC Brothers (03:24):
um, yeah, I mean, and to that, right, you can
piece them, I guess, in thesense like you're not alone.
You're not the first one I'veseen to go through this.
And even the way you said that,that was like, hey, I foresee
what you're going to experiencebecause because I do.
I see what you're going throughnow is similar to other things.
(03:44):
I have personally watched Firmsgo through and, and abandon and
move past and grow beyond.
Um, one of those things isgetting into advisory, right?
Will Hill (03:59):
Yeah.
KC Brothers (04:00):
Yeah, you, you chuckled a little.
Why?
Will Hill (04:03):
It You know, did, did a lot of work with that while I
was at Thomson with the PracticeForward Program with firms, KC,
and then continue to help firmseven now just help them redefine
what it means to them andcontinue to evolve and say, what
are the advisory opportunitiesin front of me now?
(04:26):
And if we've positioned ourfirms to take advantage of
those, how do we, how does thatlook from a practical
perspective?
And what does, what does thatmean?
Opportunity by opportunity.
And what does that mean in termsof replication, growth and
expansion within the firm?
And thKCsey, how does that layeragainst.
What the firm's goals reallyare, right?
(04:48):
Because there could be someopportunities that mean, Hey, we
got to go hire 12 more peopleand go chase after this.
But if the firm goals are, Iwant to balance how much time
I'm spending with my family andhow much time we're spending
with work, that's going to beopposed to it.
So is that the right opportunityfor them to go chase?
Maybe not, right?
So, as I work with firms, um,yeah, I'm
KC Brothers (05:10):
And then a strategy that contradicts each other?
Will Hill (05:13):
Yeah, I, I do run into that KC because we don't
think about those things incombination one another.
We think about them veryseparately.
And so a firm owner will say,Hey, this is why I'm in this
business to do X, Y, and Z.
This is what I want to achieve.
And they put that kind of overin a box and don't connect.
(05:34):
What am I doing on a day to daybasis?
I think a lot of that todaycomes from, there's so much work
that's out there.
KC Brothers (05:42):
Yeah.
Will Hill (05:42):
No one's, no one's lacking for opportunity right
now.
And so I'm just, I'm trying notto drown.
There's a lot of tech change.
There's a, I can only assumewe're going to see a swell of,
of regulation change towards theend of this year with the new
administration in place, right?
So.
(06:03):
There's a lot of change beingforced on us.
I'm trying to stay afloat and weget focused in that area.
And we don't often cross thoseboxes with one another.
I think it's really important asyou look at what am I trying to
wrestle through?
How does that fit with what I'mtrying to achieve?
Because that's going to change.
Do I want to actually wrestlethrough this or do I want to
(06:24):
punt and run away from it?
Some things we can't run awayfrom or there's an opportunity
from a positive perspective.
There's an opportunity to sit inthere.
Do I chase that?
How aggressively do I chasethat?
That has to be in line with.
Am I hitting my goals?
What do my goals look like?
And we've got to be able tobring those conversations
(06:44):
together.
I spend a lot of time with firmsin the mix of those
conversations.
KC Brothers (06:49):
Do you have an example or story you could share
that kind of, um, connects thosedots for listeners?
Will Hill (06:58):
Sure.
So, uh, I had a firm that I'mworking with come back from a
conference and said, Hey, Ithink we need to hire some more
people because All of ourfriends are hiring people.
And, uh, I said, all right,remind me again, what's the goal
of your firm is right now?
(07:18):
Oh, we've got three young kidswant to spend some time with
them.
Okay, fantastic.
Hey, didn't we just firesomebody?
Yeah.
Yeah.
We never should have hired them.
That was a pain.
We're much better off withoutthat individual.
Now, sometimes Those are aboutthe individuals, not about the
fact of hiring more.
But then we talked about whatdoes it mean administratively to
(07:38):
hire more people.
And while the work may be theretoday to go hire one more, the
real benefit and margin willcome with client growth.
What is it that takes the mosttime?
Is it really the execution ofthe work?
Or is it the management of theclient relationships?
And are you going to hiresomeone that's going to manage
(07:59):
the client relationships orexecute the work?
And what does that mean forflexibility with your kids
sports and your desire to take avacation here and there?
Um, so, after that conversation,then it was a matter of, hey,
Look at your revenue for lastyear.
Did you hit enough to achieveboth the short term goals as
(08:23):
well as continue to put awaytowards your long term goals?
If the answer is yes, I'm goingto challenge, do you really need
to hire right now?
Right?
Um, or are we just concernedabout what everyone else is
doing and what we're hearingfrom the market?
Right?
Especially in the small to midsized, you know, firm space.
There's a lot of noise out thereand sometimes we feel pressure
(08:45):
to do things.
But really, when you're theowner of a small to mid sized
firm, You have something thatothers don't have and you've got
flexibility and choice, right?
I think that's where theadvisory realm comes into play.
KC Brothers (08:57):
Yeah.
How do you define a small to midsized company?
Will Hill (09:02):
Um, I'm gonna, I'm gonna run with Less than 20 FTS,
including owner, just
KC Brothers (09:08):
for fun.
That's across all roles, notjust account.
Yeah.
Will Hill (09:14):
Yeah,
KC Brothers (09:14):
I'm sorry.
And then you touched on anothertopic.
I want to talk to you about,which is advisory.
We've mentioned it a little bit,right?
Um, there's a sentiment that I'maware of that.
I mean, we chat a little bitbefore we actually hit record,
um, about there not being agreat definition.
Of advisory, um, but also likeit's talked about all the time
(09:39):
and encouraged all the time.
Um, how How do people get intoit?
How do they make it moreeffective?
What what does good advisorylook like?
Will Hill (09:51):
Well, i'm glad everyone's here for the next
five hours.
I'll answer that question KC umWhat does
KC Brothers (10:00):
Okay, yeah,
Will Hill (10:01):
so one I think as we've Evolve through the past 10
to 15 years.
We've kind of moved past this.
Hey, I know what advisory is.
It's everything that's notcompliance.
It's forward looking notbackward looking.
And so people have become kindof comfortable with that.
(10:22):
Um, but I think that there'sstill some quiet unsettledness
around what does the executionlook like?
Right?
And I think we also need todefine a little bit around, do I
have an advisory based clientrelationship?
(10:44):
Or am I performing an advisoryservice in the moment, right?
And, and those two aredifferent.
There's a lot of firms.
Almost every firm is going tooffer advisory services.
Not every firm has an advisorybased relationship, right?
And we can look at that fromeither the commercial end.
(11:07):
How things are structured andwhat the client sees when they
pay or typically we would saythe client sees a one to one
factor of I'm paying one monthlyfee for everything I'm getting
from you because you're myadvisor as opposed to a one to
many.
I'm paying the tax fee.
I'm paying the accounting fee.
I'm paying the payroll fee.
Right?
And, and now you're not reallymy advisor.
(11:28):
You're my service provider inthose, in those different areas.
So there's the commercial end ofthat, that, that we look at, uh,
from the relationship.
There's also the time andconnectivity end, right?
And not that I want to counthours, but if I've got a real
advisory relationship, I have tohave space for conversation.
(11:50):
And so we're in ourrelationship.
Is there time to speak with oneanother if it's just when I'm
giving you the tax return orjust when I need your bank
statements, you got a problem,right?
It's not a real advisorrelationship.
How on earth can I be inside ofyour head if we don't ever talk?
(12:11):
Um, so I think that, you know,We need to continue to do well
at saying, how do I structurethese advisory relationships so
that I know when the advisoryservices are needed or I can see
when they're needed ahead oftime and position the client to
execute on them.
Right?
So I've got to have someadvisory services.
(12:32):
Most firms have that, but I haveto have really advisory based
relationships to position thoseservices well, and that just has
a lot of impact on thecommercial structure of the
relationship, how we spend time,maybe roles and responsibilities
of who's doing what within thefirm on the client account, and
so that's where We start tospread that net of where are you
(12:54):
focused in advisory goes a lotof different ways.
And then we see a lot of thetechnology coming in as well.
Okay, so you say, hey, if you'rean advisory firm, we can help
you.
That can mean a lot of differentthings.
Generally, it means efficiencyto give you time to do advisory
stuff.
And that all sounds good untilwe don't have an internal plan
(13:18):
of how we're going to use thattime, right?
And then we're just all of asudden it's a capacity relief
lever as opposed to a growthmechanism or a client
relationship deepeningmechanism.
KC Brothers (13:31):
Yes, I think that deserves repeating.
It becomes a capacity relieflever as opposed to
Will Hill (13:41):
A growth opportunity.
Yes.
Yeah.
And a client relationshipdeepening opportunity.
KC Brothers (13:47):
Yes.
Okay.
So as you were talking, I'mthinking we've talked about
small to mid large firm or tomid firms.
We can talk about large firms aswell, but for talking about a 20
person firm that covers allsorts of roles, right.
admin.
Um, probably a couple ofpartners, um, lots of junior
(14:11):
accountants, people risingthrough the ranks.
Right?
Um, is there any other type ofrole that I'm missing that you
commonly see?
Will Hill (14:21):
Keep going.
Let's see what else you got.
KC Brothers (14:22):
Okay.
Well, that's where, that's whereI'm heading.
Cause now my question is, who's,who's offering the advisory
services?
Is it because I, it's notuncommon that I see and I don't
talk to firms as often as youdo, um, partners still in the
grind, the day to day output ofaccounting services when, okay,
(14:47):
is that where you have like alittle team put together like a
squad, a tiger team, whateveryou want to call it, like we
work together to provide theservices and then I, as the
partner or someone as the teamlead, Delivers the advisory or
do, or do you all get intoadvisory or what does that look
like?
Will Hill (15:05):
Yeah, I, I think that there needs to be a point person
per client on the relationshipthat also owns the advisory, at
least the advisory positioning.
It doesn't necessarily mean theyhave to be the one that would
deliver every single advisorypiece, right?
(15:25):
So we may have someone in our.
In our firm that's an expertwith M& A activity and so I'm
going to bring this to, hey, youtalked about growth, you've
mentioned this other one, youwant to look at buying your
competitor down the street.
We can help you with that.
This is, you know, we're goingto make sure that it's well
(15:46):
timed.
I'm going to have someconversations with them, but I'm
going to bring in an expert todeliver in that realm.
But there's a point personthere.
That's, that's running throughthat, right?
So whether that's the clientpartner or if a firm names, a
client relationship manager,there's different ways that I've
(16:06):
seen that structured indifferent ways.
I've seen structuredeffectively, right?
It's not just like, uh, there'sonly one way to do it.
Right.
But I think from a clientperspective, it's great that a
team is working on my stuff andI don't mind if someone's Tell
me to input my payroll hours andsomebody else is asking for my,
you know, my 1098 forms orwhatever else I've got, but I
(16:28):
need to know who I go to, who amI talking to when it comes to
the strategic end of what'sgoing on?
Who's going to review the taxreturn and talk about, Hey, what
do you got coming on next year?
You're going to have to makesome alterations with retirement
planning and HSA, blah, blah,blah, whatever those things may
be.
So I need to have that.
That point person that's reallythere and, and it's free, I
(16:52):
believe free of a lot of otherduties.
So their focus is how are wehelping them?
How do we identify that nextopportunity?
Right?
Um, you know, this from youryears of experience, not that
you're old KC, but, um, uh, youknow, The things that get
(17:14):
measured matter, and aremanaged, and are executed
against.
And so, if Will is the advisorylead, But is also the main cash
return reviewer and the mainperson on three other things.
(17:35):
Yeah, we're not going to see awhole lot of progress on the
advisory stuff, just to be supertechnical there with the word
stuff, careful when you use thatone, um, because I've got a
bunch of other things that areheavily measured.
And have deadlines and arerequired.
So we've got to ask, how do wefree up the time and capacity,
right?
And that's where we can usetechnology.
(17:57):
We can choose to hire anddelegate and have more precise
job roles, uh, and be okay with,Hey, this is what you're.
I got someone coming in to dothis kind of, uh, input and
execution and review work andwe're not just spreading that to
everybody.
It's going through one or twopeople because I need to pull KC
(18:19):
out of that so she can focus onthe advisory elements.
KC Brothers (18:22):
Yeah, you said something there too about having
more specific job.
Uh, I forget if you said titlesor descriptions, but both,
right.
Um, and you know what, that kindof comes swim lanes, right.
Of letting people know what itis that they do, which I think
provides people with better jobsatisfaction too, because
(18:43):
they're not spread thin, theycan grow and develop hard and
soft skills relative to whatyou're asking them to do.
Um, it's interesting to mebecause I do feel like in the
short amount of time that I havebeen in the accounting industry,
um, I've subscribed to a numberof newsletters and try to keep
my pulse on the things thatpeople are talking about.
(19:05):
What's important, what's beingpublished in trade newsletters
and are being talked about at,um, large trade shows.
And it's not uncommon that Ijust see a lot of business
advice.
Um, and I, I see things beingtalked about that.
I've known for a long time in mycareer in tech, I've just
(19:29):
understanding, um, that one thatyou just touched on is the job
descriptions, um, subscriptionpricing, even I was like, that's
very tech centric, and we'retrying to adopt that, um, or
push that into accounting, whichI bring that up too, because you
mentioned how, um, Um, peoplecan mistakenly look at advisory
(19:55):
as a capacity relief and not agrowth mechanism.
And you feel similarly toexecution or application of
fixed fee or subscriptionpricing.
That it's not solving the, theroot problem here.
Will Hill (20:14):
Yeah, you know, you are, you are correct.
I think that we see morebusiness, more accounting firms
starting to look at businessoperational models in other
industries and go, you knowwhat, we're still special.
But it doesn't mean we can't usewhat's really good in the other
(20:35):
professions.
Um, I think on the top end ofthe market space with more PE
coming in, we're continuing tosee that right firm structures
have to change, uh, you know,and so now we're, we're looking
at a PE firm.
Doesn't want to come in to a,and leave a 12 partner vote by
(20:59):
committee operational model andsay, Hey, we're really going to
grow our efficiency and bottomline through this.
Um, I'm not, I'm not a PEexpert.
I don't want to try to pretendto be one, but just in
conversations with PE expertsand in the profession, it's
been, Hey, they want to shiftthe operational model, who's in
charge, who's running things,how do we view things?
(21:20):
Um, and I think those are even.
If you don't want to sniff PE,that's fine.
Uh, but, and you've got asmaller firm, there's still good
things we can learn from thatand say, if we've got really
strong vertical lanes of wherepeople are running with their
job description and duties, Ihave a more clear growth pattern
(21:43):
for my team, and I think that itmakes us have better clarity
when it comes to hiring andexpectations.
Now I also have a betterunderstanding of what a real
capacity is.
When I've got five people KCthat all do everything
KC Brothers (22:03):
Yeah,
Will Hill (22:03):
how on earth do I measure capacity?
How do I consistently setpriority?
How do I bring someone new inwhen somebody retires or leaves
and either they're gonna Drownor they're gonna swallow a fire
hose.
Those really the only twochoices?
I don't think so And so I thinkwe've got a look at some of the
(22:27):
job duties differently from asuccess of the employee
perspective From a clarity ofinsight perspective from the
firm and when we have thosetogether Now we can look at
what's the client opportunityand how do we leverage the
client opportunity and What dowe have the scale to go achieve?
KC Brothers (22:45):
I love that.
I think at the end of the day,to your point, all of these
things are meant to help themachieve their goals, whether
it's a goal specific to the firmor them as a partner owner CEO
or whatever.
But it sounds like it's notuncommon that one of those goals
is just.
A better work life balance, moretime with family, more time for
(23:05):
hobbies, whatever it might be.
Um, and I feel like and tell meif you feel that this is still
rather common, that the industryhasn't broken the stereotype, I
don't want to say it's astereotype, but the, the
unfortunate norm.
(23:26):
There's a badge of honor forworking X amount of hours.
And it's like, no, like there, II'm really passionate about,
okay, well, if I outside canopyKC is taking care of her health,
having fun with her family.
(23:46):
Eating good food, seeing the sunthat I can show up to work and
more productive, effectiveindividual contributor.
Um, whether that's directly tolike output of tasks or like
contributing to the morale ofthe team and ensuring that like,
we all want to show up at workand be contributing adults.
(24:08):
Like there's at the end of theday, that has huge value.
Will Hill (24:14):
Absolutely.
KC.
I think we've got to shift thementality.
Away from hours entirely toproduction.
Yes.
And, and so even now, if youspend a decent amount of time on
LinkedIn, um, it, while many arestill in the hours and bill
(24:37):
hours and, Hey, you got to putin 60 a week during tax season.
Doesn't matter.
That's just part of what we dois part of what makes us cool.
You've also got.
The opposite end of the spectrumthat goes, well, the only way to
counter that is to talk abouthow I'm not working.
So let that sink in for aminute.
(24:58):
So what is, what does the personnew in the industry come in and
look and they see this?
Hey, there's this raging debateabout.
Hours and how many you shouldwork or how few you should have
to work But what if neither ofthose are the answer?
What if the answer is reallyabout hey Our firm has goals for
the firm which should supportthe goals of the owners And if
(25:23):
the owners have good healthygoals Employees coming in are
going to be able to achievetheir needs and what they have
and At the end of the day All ofthese goals come down to money
Uh, you know not more more moremore more but Hey, I want to be
(25:47):
able to spend time with myfamily doing what sitting in a
cardboard box watching tv ortraveling because those two
things take different amount ofmoney So at the end of the day,
all the goals come down to we'vegot to be able to financially
afford those, those things,right?
Some are going to argue with methat my goal is to help other
(26:10):
people.
Yes, that's going to be one ofyour goals.
But to your personal goals to beachieved, even as an owner, it
takes finances to get thosethings done.
I don't think you should beafraid of that answer.
So then we look at that and say,well, how do we achieve
KC Brothers (26:23):
a martyr to the cause either?
Will Hill (26:25):
No, no, that's right.
So how do I.
How do we earn enough revenue tomeet those goals?
Well, I don't have enough timeand I don't like doing all this
data entry work.
So I've got to outsource that toeither technology or people.
Okay, fantastic.
Now we're going to bring thosein and put it into play.
Well, now my question is this,how are we going to measure
(26:47):
that?
And if it's just all about thehours, then I'm, I'm in a no win
situation.
Whether I'm about, I want towork as few hours as possible,
or I want to work as many hoursas I can because I think that's
what we should do because we'reresponsible accountants.
KC Brothers (27:03):
Hours aren't the
Will Hill (27:04):
answer.
KC Brothers (27:05):
Yeah.
And especially with the billablehour, because then it's like,
well, if all of my goals comedown to money, how do I get more
money?
I build more hours and it'slike, but especially with AI
now, like even myself, I hit apoint in the last month and a
half, maybe where I finally waslike, I'm all, I'm all in, I'm
(27:28):
in chat GPT every day.
I finally found a way to helpoptimize.
Some of the things I do, noteverything yet, but I finished a
project on Monday in a matter ofhours that would've taken me a
week or more.
Mm-hmm And, and it's about thatof like, okay, to your point of
(27:48):
like measuring output and say ifit gets you there faster, that
does not mean you charge thebillable hours that no, you've
delivered the thing.
Will Hill (27:59):
When we focus on, when we focus on.
especially in line with certaingoals.
That's when there's moreintrinsic opportunity that's
there from technology or fromlearning new things or from
sharing and connecting withteammates, right?
Because now all of a sudden I'mgetting things done faster.
(28:20):
We're together, we're gettingmore things done.
Now we can sit down and say, ifwe're meeting our goals, great.
I just had a conversation withfirm owner about Fridays in the
summer.
Do I give them off?
Do I not?
How do we feel about that?
What if they worked X amount ofhours?
And this is the conversation Ihad is don't worry about the
hours.
This is about production.
(28:41):
What needs to get done for youto achieve your goals?
If we're getting it done, great.
Take the time off.
KC Brothers (28:46):
That's in line with your values as a firm, too.
And, and even retaining talentin this type of market.
Friday's off in the summer?
Heck yeah! You know, if you canbalance both, achieve both, why
not?
Will Hill (28:59):
Right.
Right, right.
But I think we get there byhaving a production focus that's
in line with what are the goalswe're trying to achieve.
And if we don't think about thegoals we're trying to achieve as
a firm, then anything that helpsus get more efficient, we're
just going to try to keepcramming more stuff in the bag.
And then you sit and wonder, whyaren't my staff happy?
(29:21):
Because I've given them moretools.
Yeah, but we're not connectingthings to what we're trying to
achieve.
And they feel like it's just.
You know, the never endingstory.
Um, so.
KC Brothers (29:34):
I think that's, that's a great note to end on
and maybe it can be summarized,maybe our entire conversation
can be summarized by, um, theimpact good healthy, you said
that and I was like, Ooh, I'mglad he qualified that good
healthy goals have on a firm'sproduction.
Will Hill (29:56):
Right.
KC Brothers (29:57):
Yeah.
Will Hill (29:58):
Right.
KC Brothers (29:58):
Awesome.
Thanks again, Will.
Will Hill (30:01):
Yeah.
You're welcome, KC.
It's been a pleasure chattingwith you today.
Welcome to another episode of Canopy Practice
Success.
I'm your host, KC Brothers, andI'm here with Will Hill.
Will, go ahead and introduceyourself to our listeners.
Will Hill (00:16):
Well, thank you, KC.
I appreciate you guys having meon today.
And, uh, to the listeners, I amWill Hill, and I've been helping
accounting firms with theirgrowth and processes for the
better part of 25 years, whichmakes me old, KC.
That's all it does, and, uh,it's kind of disappointing.
But, uh I have my own consultingpractice, and I like to live at
(00:36):
the intersection of people andprocess, as they say, and, you
know, we can sit in thelaboratory, define all kinds of
processes and systems well, andwe sprinkle in those pesky
humans, and that's when all thefun starts to happen, and so I
love getting, I love gettinginvolved with that.
That attitude may be jaded bythree kids.
I don't know.
We'll see.
KC Brothers (00:59):
I love it.
Well, and you've got, tell us alittle bit more about your
experience because you've gotquite an experience that makes
you very qualified for theaccounting space.
And then you've pivoted recentlyin the last several years.
Will Hill (01:13):
Yeah, yeah, so I spent, um, the better part of 21
years working at ThompsonReuters, did a lot with, uh,
their training consulting group,um, and working with firms
implementing software, doingbusiness workflow consulting,
helping them with, uh,transitioning their commercial
models to be centered onadvisory, that sort of thing.
(01:33):
Spent some time over there inproduct marketing and product
management as well.
And then I left to go on my ownand just really helping firms
and firm owners that feel stuckand saying, how do I go forward?
Um, being a bit of ears to theprofession and trying to speak
from what I've seen in otherfirms, physically been in over
400 firms over the years, KC,and just kind of seen a lot of
(01:57):
operational things.
And it's been great to be deeplyinvolved with firms.
Put some things into motion, seethe impact and just be a small
part of their success story isjust very rewarding.
KC Brothers (02:08):
Yeah, I mean you're you're would you say you're
closer to them in thisconsulting position rather than
you were in Your position atthompson reuters.
Will Hill (02:18):
Yeah, I I definitely think so and um, you know and
nothing to to knock The oldrole, the old company in any
way.
It's just you have a differentopportunity on your own and you
can get deeper in a lot ofareas.
Um, and it's been fun to dothat.
KC Brothers (02:35):
Yeah.
Well, the reason why I ask isbecause, um, when you're closer
to it, like you end up seeingyour personal impact more and
seeing how the firm changes.
Whereas like you can be at acompany, sell a product, even
selling a service at a company,but you're not following.
That firm throughout theirjourney.
(02:55):
And I'm sure you get to followthese firms through their
journey way more, which I'm sureis just like so fun to see them
transform.
Will Hill (03:04):
And it's, it's great to be able to then go back to
the next firm and say, Hey, I'veseen some of the challenges
you're going to face six months,nine months, a year from now.
How do we prepare for those inadvance?
Are there some obstacles that wecan help you avoid?
Um, as, as I've had to navigatethem with other firms.
So,
KC Brothers (03:24):
um, yeah, I mean, and to that, right, you can
piece them, I guess, in thesense like you're not alone.
You're not the first one I'veseen to go through this.
And even the way you said that,that was like, hey, I foresee
what you're going to experiencebecause because I do.
I see what you're going throughnow is similar to other things.
(03:44):
I have personally watched Firmsgo through and, and abandon and
move past and grow beyond.
Um, one of those things isgetting into advisory, right?
Will Hill (03:59):
Yeah.
KC Brothers (04:00):
Yeah, you, you chuckled a little.
Why?
Will Hill (04:03):
It You know, did, did a lot of work with that while I
was at Thomson with the PracticeForward Program with firms, KC,
and then continue to help firmseven now just help them redefine
what it means to them andcontinue to evolve and say, what
are the advisory opportunitiesin front of me now?
(04:26):
And if we've positioned ourfirms to take advantage of
those, how do we, how does thatlook from a practical
perspective?
And what does, what does thatmean?
Opportunity by opportunity.
And what does that mean in termsof replication, growth and
expansion within the firm?
And thKCsey, how does that layeragainst.
What the firm's goals reallyare, right?
(04:48):
Because there could be someopportunities that mean, Hey, we
got to go hire 12 more peopleand go chase after this.
But if the firm goals are, Iwant to balance how much time
I'm spending with my family andhow much time we're spending
with work, that's going to beopposed to it.
So is that the right opportunityfor them to go chase?
Maybe not, right?
So, as I work with firms, um,yeah, I'm
KC Brothers (05:10):
And then a strategy that contradicts each other?
Will Hill (05:13):
Yeah, I, I do run into that KC because we don't
think about those things incombination one another.
We think about them veryseparately.
And so a firm owner will say,Hey, this is why I'm in this
business to do X, Y, and Z.
This is what I want to achieve.
And they put that kind of overin a box and don't connect.
(05:34):
What am I doing on a day to daybasis?
I think a lot of that todaycomes from, there's so much work
that's out there.
KC Brothers (05:42):
Yeah.
Will Hill (05:42):
No one's, no one's lacking for opportunity right
now.
And so I'm just, I'm trying notto drown.
There's a lot of tech change.
There's a, I can only assumewe're going to see a swell of,
of regulation change towards theend of this year with the new
administration in place, right?
So.
(06:03):
There's a lot of change beingforced on us.
I'm trying to stay afloat and weget focused in that area.
And we don't often cross thoseboxes with one another.
I think it's really important asyou look at what am I trying to
wrestle through?
How does that fit with what I'mtrying to achieve?
Because that's going to change.
Do I want to actually wrestlethrough this or do I want to
(06:24):
punt and run away from it?
Some things we can't run awayfrom or there's an opportunity
from a positive perspective.
There's an opportunity to sit inthere.
Do I chase that?
How aggressively do I chasethat?
That has to be in line with.
Am I hitting my goals?
What do my goals look like?
And we've got to be able tobring those conversations
(06:44):
together.
I spend a lot of time with firmsin the mix of those
conversations.
KC Brothers (06:49):
Do you have an example or story you could share
that kind of, um, connects thosedots for listeners?
Will Hill (06:58):
Sure.
So, uh, I had a firm that I'mworking with come back from a
conference and said, Hey, Ithink we need to hire some more
people because All of ourfriends are hiring people.
And, uh, I said, all right,remind me again, what's the goal
of your firm is right now?
(07:18):
Oh, we've got three young kidswant to spend some time with
them.
Okay, fantastic.
Hey, didn't we just firesomebody?
Yeah.
Yeah.
We never should have hired them.
That was a pain.
We're much better off withoutthat individual.
Now, sometimes Those are aboutthe individuals, not about the
fact of hiring more.
But then we talked about whatdoes it mean administratively to
(07:38):
hire more people.
And while the work may be theretoday to go hire one more, the
real benefit and margin willcome with client growth.
What is it that takes the mosttime?
Is it really the execution ofthe work?
Or is it the management of theclient relationships?
And are you going to hiresomeone that's going to manage
(07:59):
the client relationships orexecute the work?
And what does that mean forflexibility with your kids
sports and your desire to take avacation here and there?
Um, so, after that conversation,then it was a matter of, hey,
Look at your revenue for lastyear.
Did you hit enough to achieveboth the short term goals as
(08:23):
well as continue to put awaytowards your long term goals?
If the answer is yes, I'm goingto challenge, do you really need
to hire right now?
Right?
Um, or are we just concernedabout what everyone else is
doing and what we're hearingfrom the market?
Right?
Especially in the small to midsized, you know, firm space.
There's a lot of noise out thereand sometimes we feel pressure
(08:45):
to do things.
But really, when you're theowner of a small to mid sized
firm, You have something thatothers don't have and you've got
flexibility and choice, right?
I think that's where theadvisory realm comes into play.
KC Brothers (08:57):
Yeah.
How do you define a small to midsized company?
Will Hill (09:02):
Um, I'm gonna, I'm gonna run with Less than 20 FTS,
including owner, just
KC Brothers (09:08):
for fun.
That's across all roles, notjust account.
Yeah.
Will Hill (09:14):
Yeah,
KC Brothers (09:14):
I'm sorry.
And then you touched on anothertopic.
I want to talk to you about,which is advisory.
We've mentioned it a little bit,right?
Um, there's a sentiment that I'maware of that.
I mean, we chat a little bitbefore we actually hit record,
um, about there not being agreat definition.
Of advisory, um, but also likeit's talked about all the time
(09:39):
and encouraged all the time.
Um, how How do people get intoit?
How do they make it moreeffective?
What what does good advisorylook like?
Will Hill (09:51):
Well, i'm glad everyone's here for the next
five hours.
I'll answer that question KC umWhat does
KC Brothers (10:00):
Okay, yeah,
Will Hill (10:01):
so one I think as we've Evolve through the past 10
to 15 years.
We've kind of moved past this.
Hey, I know what advisory is.
It's everything that's notcompliance.
It's forward looking notbackward looking.
And so people have become kindof comfortable with that.
(10:22):
Um, but I think that there'sstill some quiet unsettledness
around what does the executionlook like?
Right?
And I think we also need todefine a little bit around, do I
have an advisory based clientrelationship?
(10:44):
Or am I performing an advisoryservice in the moment, right?
And, and those two aredifferent.
There's a lot of firms.
Almost every firm is going tooffer advisory services.
Not every firm has an advisorybased relationship, right?
And we can look at that fromeither the commercial end.
(11:07):
How things are structured andwhat the client sees when they
pay or typically we would saythe client sees a one to one
factor of I'm paying one monthlyfee for everything I'm getting
from you because you're myadvisor as opposed to a one to
many.
I'm paying the tax fee.
I'm paying the accounting fee.
I'm paying the payroll fee.
Right?
And, and now you're not reallymy advisor.
(11:28):
You're my service provider inthose, in those different areas.
So there's the commercial end ofthat, that, that we look at, uh,
from the relationship.
There's also the time andconnectivity end, right?
And not that I want to counthours, but if I've got a real
advisory relationship, I have tohave space for conversation.
(11:50):
And so we're in ourrelationship.
Is there time to speak with oneanother if it's just when I'm
giving you the tax return orjust when I need your bank
statements, you got a problem,right?
It's not a real advisorrelationship.
How on earth can I be inside ofyour head if we don't ever talk?
(12:11):
Um, so I think that, you know,We need to continue to do well
at saying, how do I structurethese advisory relationships so
that I know when the advisoryservices are needed or I can see
when they're needed ahead oftime and position the client to
execute on them.
Right?
So I've got to have someadvisory services.
(12:32):
Most firms have that, but I haveto have really advisory based
relationships to position thoseservices well, and that just has
a lot of impact on thecommercial structure of the
relationship, how we spend time,maybe roles and responsibilities
of who's doing what within thefirm on the client account, and
so that's where We start tospread that net of where are you
(12:54):
focused in advisory goes a lotof different ways.
And then we see a lot of thetechnology coming in as well.
Okay, so you say, hey, if you'rean advisory firm, we can help
you.
That can mean a lot of differentthings.
Generally, it means efficiencyto give you time to do advisory
stuff.
And that all sounds good untilwe don't have an internal plan
(13:18):
of how we're going to use thattime, right?
And then we're just all of asudden it's a capacity relief
lever as opposed to a growthmechanism or a client
relationship deepeningmechanism.
KC Brothers (13:31):
Yes, I think that deserves repeating.
It becomes a capacity relieflever as opposed to
Will Hill (13:41):
A growth opportunity.
Yes.
Yeah.
And a client relationshipdeepening opportunity.
KC Brothers (13:47):
Yes.
Okay.
So as you were talking, I'mthinking we've talked about
small to mid large firm or tomid firms.
We can talk about large firms aswell, but for talking about a 20
person firm that covers allsorts of roles, right.
admin.
Um, probably a couple ofpartners, um, lots of junior
(14:11):
accountants, people risingthrough the ranks.
Right?
Um, is there any other type ofrole that I'm missing that you
commonly see?
Will Hill (14:21):
Keep going.
Let's see what else you got.
KC Brothers (14:22):
Okay.
Well, that's where, that's whereI'm heading.
Cause now my question is, who's,who's offering the advisory
services?
Is it because I, it's notuncommon that I see and I don't
talk to firms as often as youdo, um, partners still in the
grind, the day to day output ofaccounting services when, okay,
(14:47):
is that where you have like alittle team put together like a
squad, a tiger team, whateveryou want to call it, like we
work together to provide theservices and then I, as the
partner or someone as the teamlead, Delivers the advisory or
do, or do you all get intoadvisory or what does that look
like?
Will Hill (15:05):
Yeah, I, I think that there needs to be a point person
per client on the relationshipthat also owns the advisory, at
least the advisory positioning.
It doesn't necessarily mean theyhave to be the one that would
deliver every single advisorypiece, right?
(15:25):
So we may have someone in our.
In our firm that's an expertwith M& A activity and so I'm
going to bring this to, hey, youtalked about growth, you've
mentioned this other one, youwant to look at buying your
competitor down the street.
We can help you with that.
This is, you know, we're goingto make sure that it's well
(15:46):
timed.
I'm going to have someconversations with them, but I'm
going to bring in an expert todeliver in that realm.
But there's a point personthere.
That's, that's running throughthat, right?
So whether that's the clientpartner or if a firm names, a
client relationship manager,there's different ways that I've
(16:06):
seen that structured indifferent ways.
I've seen structuredeffectively, right?
It's not just like, uh, there'sonly one way to do it.
Right.
But I think from a clientperspective, it's great that a
team is working on my stuff andI don't mind if someone's Tell
me to input my payroll hours andsomebody else is asking for my,
you know, my 1098 forms orwhatever else I've got, but I
(16:28):
need to know who I go to, who amI talking to when it comes to
the strategic end of what'sgoing on?
Who's going to review the taxreturn and talk about, Hey, what
do you got coming on next year?
You're going to have to makesome alterations with retirement
planning and HSA, blah, blah,blah, whatever those things may
be.
So I need to have that.
That point person that's reallythere and, and it's free, I
(16:52):
believe free of a lot of otherduties.
So their focus is how are wehelping them?
How do we identify that nextopportunity?
Right?
Um, you know, this from youryears of experience, not that
you're old KC, but, um, uh, youknow, The things that get
(17:14):
measured matter, and aremanaged, and are executed
against.
And so, if Will is the advisorylead, But is also the main cash
return reviewer and the mainperson on three other things.
(17:35):
Yeah, we're not going to see awhole lot of progress on the
advisory stuff, just to be supertechnical there with the word
stuff, careful when you use thatone, um, because I've got a
bunch of other things that areheavily measured.
And have deadlines and arerequired.
So we've got to ask, how do wefree up the time and capacity,
right?
And that's where we can usetechnology.
(17:57):
We can choose to hire anddelegate and have more precise
job roles, uh, and be okay with,Hey, this is what you're.
I got someone coming in to dothis kind of, uh, input and
execution and review work andwe're not just spreading that to
everybody.
It's going through one or twopeople because I need to pull KC
(18:19):
out of that so she can focus onthe advisory elements.
KC Brothers (18:22):
Yeah, you said something there too about having
more specific job.
Uh, I forget if you said titlesor descriptions, but both,
right.
Um, and you know what, that kindof comes swim lanes, right.
Of letting people know what itis that they do, which I think
provides people with better jobsatisfaction too, because
(18:43):
they're not spread thin, theycan grow and develop hard and
soft skills relative to whatyou're asking them to do.
Um, it's interesting to mebecause I do feel like in the
short amount of time that I havebeen in the accounting industry,
um, I've subscribed to a numberof newsletters and try to keep
my pulse on the things thatpeople are talking about.
(19:05):
What's important, what's beingpublished in trade newsletters
and are being talked about at,um, large trade shows.
And it's not uncommon that Ijust see a lot of business
advice.
Um, and I, I see things beingtalked about that.
I've known for a long time in mycareer in tech, I've just
(19:29):
understanding, um, that one thatyou just touched on is the job
descriptions, um, subscriptionpricing, even I was like, that's
very tech centric, and we'retrying to adopt that, um, or
push that into accounting, whichI bring that up too, because you
mentioned how, um, Um, peoplecan mistakenly look at advisory
(19:55):
as a capacity relief and not agrowth mechanism.
And you feel similarly toexecution or application of
fixed fee or subscriptionpricing.
That it's not solving the, theroot problem here.
Will Hill (20:14):
Yeah, you know, you are, you are correct.
I think that we see morebusiness, more accounting firms
starting to look at businessoperational models in other
industries and go, you knowwhat, we're still special.
But it doesn't mean we can't usewhat's really good in the other
(20:35):
professions.
Um, I think on the top end ofthe market space with more PE
coming in, we're continuing tosee that right firm structures
have to change, uh, you know,and so now we're, we're looking
at a PE firm.
Doesn't want to come in to a,and leave a 12 partner vote by
(20:59):
committee operational model andsay, Hey, we're really going to
grow our efficiency and bottomline through this.
Um, I'm not, I'm not a PEexpert.
I don't want to try to pretendto be one, but just in
conversations with PE expertsand in the profession, it's
been, Hey, they want to shiftthe operational model, who's in
charge, who's running things,how do we view things?
(21:20):
Um, and I think those are even.
If you don't want to sniff PE,that's fine.
Uh, but, and you've got asmaller firm, there's still good
things we can learn from thatand say, if we've got really
strong vertical lanes of wherepeople are running with their
job description and duties, Ihave a more clear growth pattern
(21:43):
for my team, and I think that itmakes us have better clarity
when it comes to hiring andexpectations.
Now I also have a betterunderstanding of what a real
capacity is.
When I've got five people KCthat all do everything
KC Brothers (22:03):
Yeah,
Will Hill (22:03):
how on earth do I measure capacity?
How do I consistently setpriority?
How do I bring someone new inwhen somebody retires or leaves
and either they're gonna Drownor they're gonna swallow a fire
hose.
Those really the only twochoices?
I don't think so And so I thinkwe've got a look at some of the
(22:27):
job duties differently from asuccess of the employee
perspective From a clarity ofinsight perspective from the
firm and when we have thosetogether Now we can look at
what's the client opportunityand how do we leverage the
client opportunity and What dowe have the scale to go achieve?
KC Brothers (22:45):
I love that.
I think at the end of the day,to your point, all of these
things are meant to help themachieve their goals, whether
it's a goal specific to the firmor them as a partner owner CEO
or whatever.
But it sounds like it's notuncommon that one of those goals
is just.
A better work life balance, moretime with family, more time for
(23:05):
hobbies, whatever it might be.
Um, and I feel like and tell meif you feel that this is still
rather common, that the industryhasn't broken the stereotype, I
don't want to say it's astereotype, but the, the
unfortunate norm.
(23:26):
There's a badge of honor forworking X amount of hours.
And it's like, no, like there, II'm really passionate about,
okay, well, if I outside canopyKC is taking care of her health,
having fun with her family.
(23:46):
Eating good food, seeing the sunthat I can show up to work and
more productive, effectiveindividual contributor.
Um, whether that's directly tolike output of tasks or like
contributing to the morale ofthe team and ensuring that like,
we all want to show up at workand be contributing adults.
(24:08):
Like there's at the end of theday, that has huge value.
Will Hill (24:14):
Absolutely.
KC.
I think we've got to shift thementality.
Away from hours entirely toproduction.
Yes.
And, and so even now, if youspend a decent amount of time on
LinkedIn, um, it, while many arestill in the hours and bill
(24:37):
hours and, Hey, you got to putin 60 a week during tax season.
Doesn't matter.
That's just part of what we dois part of what makes us cool.
You've also got.
The opposite end of the spectrumthat goes, well, the only way to
counter that is to talk abouthow I'm not working.
So let that sink in for aminute.
(24:58):
So what is, what does the personnew in the industry come in and
look and they see this?
Hey, there's this raging debateabout.
Hours and how many you shouldwork or how few you should have
to work But what if neither ofthose are the answer?
What if the answer is reallyabout hey Our firm has goals for
the firm which should supportthe goals of the owners And if
(25:23):
the owners have good healthygoals Employees coming in are
going to be able to achievetheir needs and what they have
and At the end of the day All ofthese goals come down to money
Uh, you know not more more moremore more but Hey, I want to be
(25:47):
able to spend time with myfamily doing what sitting in a
cardboard box watching tv ortraveling because those two
things take different amount ofmoney So at the end of the day,
all the goals come down to we'vegot to be able to financially
afford those, those things,right?
Some are going to argue with methat my goal is to help other
(26:10):
people.
Yes, that's going to be one ofyour goals.
But to your personal goals to beachieved, even as an owner, it
takes finances to get thosethings done.
I don't think you should beafraid of that answer.
So then we look at that and say,well, how do we achieve
KC Brothers (26:23):
a martyr to the cause either?
Will Hill (26:25):
No, no, that's right.
So how do I.
How do we earn enough revenue tomeet those goals?
Well, I don't have enough timeand I don't like doing all this
data entry work.
So I've got to outsource that toeither technology or people.
Okay, fantastic.
Now we're going to bring thosein and put it into play.
Well, now my question is this,how are we going to measure
(26:47):
that?
And if it's just all about thehours, then I'm, I'm in a no win
situation.
Whether I'm about, I want towork as few hours as possible,
or I want to work as many hoursas I can because I think that's
what we should do because we'reresponsible accountants.
KC Brothers (27:03):
Hours aren't the
Will Hill (27:04):
answer.
KC Brothers (27:05):
Yeah.
And especially with the billablehour, because then it's like,
well, if all of my goals comedown to money, how do I get more
money?
I build more hours and it'slike, but especially with AI
now, like even myself, I hit apoint in the last month and a
half, maybe where I finally waslike, I'm all, I'm all in, I'm
(27:28):
in chat GPT every day.
I finally found a way to helpoptimize.
Some of the things I do, noteverything yet, but I finished a
project on Monday in a matter ofhours that would've taken me a
week or more.
Mm-hmm And, and it's about thatof like, okay, to your point of
(27:48):
like measuring output and say ifit gets you there faster, that
does not mean you charge thebillable hours that no, you've
delivered the thing.
Will Hill (27:59):
When we focus on, when we focus on.
especially in line with certaingoals.
That's when there's moreintrinsic opportunity that's
there from technology or fromlearning new things or from
sharing and connecting withteammates, right?
Because now all of a sudden I'mgetting things done faster.
(28:20):
We're together, we're gettingmore things done.
Now we can sit down and say, ifwe're meeting our goals, great.
I just had a conversation withfirm owner about Fridays in the
summer.
Do I give them off?
Do I not?
How do we feel about that?
What if they worked X amount ofhours?
And this is the conversation Ihad is don't worry about the
hours.
This is about production.
(28:41):
What needs to get done for youto achieve your goals?
If we're getting it done, great.
Take the time off.
KC Brothers (28:46):
That's in line with your values as a firm, too.
And, and even retaining talentin this type of market.
Friday's off in the summer?
Heck yeah! You know, if you canbalance both, achieve both, why
not?
Will Hill (28:59):
Right.
Right, right.
But I think we get there byhaving a production focus that's
in line with what are the goalswe're trying to achieve.
And if we don't think about thegoals we're trying to achieve as
a firm, then anything that helpsus get more efficient, we're
just going to try to keepcramming more stuff in the bag.
And then you sit and wonder, whyaren't my staff happy?
(29:21):
Because I've given them moretools.
Yeah, but we're not connectingthings to what we're trying to
achieve.
And they feel like it's just.
You know, the never endingstory.
Um, so.
KC Brothers (29:34):
I think that's, that's a great note to end on
and maybe it can be summarized,maybe our entire conversation
can be summarized by, um, theimpact good healthy, you said
that and I was like, Ooh, I'mglad he qualified that good
healthy goals have on a firm'sproduction.
Will Hill (29:56):
Right.
KC Brothers (29:57):
Yeah.
Will Hill (29:58):
Right.
KC Brothers (29:58):
Awesome.
Thanks again, Will.
Will Hill (30:01):
Yeah.
You're welcome, KC.
It's been a pleasure chattingwith you today.
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