Choosing to Forgive

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What does it actually look like to forgive someone who's hurt you deeply? After acknowledging the pain and choosing to move toward forgiveness, how do you actually release the debt and free yourself from resentment?

In this episode, we dive into the mechanics of forgiveness – the practical steps of extending forgiveness to others even when our emotions haven't caught up with our decision. We unpack the difference between verbally declaring forgiveness and truly embodying it through our actions. While saying "I forgive you" matters, what follows matters more.

Through personal stories – including Mac's struggle to forgive Josie for breaking his precious vintage Coleman lantern – we illustrate how forgiveness often involves an internal battle between what we know is right and what our emotions are demanding. We share practical exercises for releasing wrongdoing, from writing letters of forgiveness to symbolic acts like releasing hurts down an imaginary river.

The benefits of forgiveness extend far beyond spiritual alignment. Research increasingly shows that holding onto bitterness keeps our bodies in chronic stress, while forgiveness brings mental, emotional, and physical healing. When we forgive, we not only free ourselves but potentially inspire others around us to do the same.

Ready to experience the freedom that comes from genuinely forgiving others? Listen now, and take your next step toward embodying the forgiveness Jesus modeled for us.

Episode Transcript

Katie (00:02):
Welcome to Praxis, a podcast where we explore how to
practice and embody the way ofJesus in our everyday lives.
Thanks so much for taking thetime to listen.
We are in a series right now onthe topic of forgiveness.
Few topics are more central tothe Christian faith.
Through Jesus, god offers usforgiveness and invites us into
restored relationship.

(00:22):
It's easy for us to rejoice inGod's gift of forgiveness, yet
we have a really hard timepracticing forgiveness ourselves
.
Rather than embracing thefreedom and transformation that
can come with forgiveness,including the possibility of a
reconciled relationship, we getstuck in bitterness and
resentment, to our own detriment.
So in this series, we'retalking about how to practice

(00:43):
and embody the forgiveness thatJesus invites and challenges us
to live into.
Whether it's learning how toreceive God's forgiveness, or
asking others to forgive you, orextending forgiveness to others
, our hope and prayer is thatyou'd sense God inviting you
deeper into practicing the wayof Jesus with us.
Today we want to talk about howto make the conscious choice to
forgive someone and thenactually do so.

(01:05):
So that's where we're headedtoday.
Let's get into it.

Josiah (01:20):
Welcome everybody.
My name is Josiah,

Katie (01:23):
I'm Katie

Mac (01:24):
and it's Mac right here.

Josiah (01:26):
It's great to be back in this room with you guys.

Mac (01:28):
Yeah, it's good to be with you guys.

Josiah (01:30):
Nice to see everybody and get after it again as we get
started.
Today I had a question, andthis got sparked by a recent
staff meeting we had.
But name a song or a band thatyou're ashamed to admit you
still enjoy listening to.

Katie (01:48):
That's a good one.

Josiah (01:49):
I can start.

Katie (01:50):
Go for it.

Josiah (01:53):
I really like old Colby Calait songs.
Oh good, I don't know why Iconnected with it so much when I
was I don't know probably likeat the end of high school, post
high school.

Katie (02:07):
Is that the one that's like start up my toes, yeah, but
that's.

Josiah (02:12):
She has other ones besides that.

Katie (02:14):
You don't want me to sing .

Josiah (02:15):
She has other ones besides bubbly, but I don't know
why.
It just gives me all the feelsand you know it's not something
I'm going to blast in the carall the time but or tell
everybody that I listened to.
But anytime I hear an old ColbyClay song I definitely like
find myself singing it and feelgood.

Katie (02:32):
That's awesome.
Um man, if I think about whenI'm on my Peloton, there's
probably a lot of them.
So I love like pink, a lot ofsome Alanis Morissette anything,
nineties, the.

Josiah (02:44):
Peloton has like, the Peloton has like-.

Katie (02:45):
Old school pink.
Yeah, old school pink.
Yeah, I love pink when I'm onthe bike.
Goo Goo Dolls.
I'm not really ashamed of them.
Alex says I should be.

Josiah (02:52):
I really like the Goo Goo Dolls and Hootie and the
Blowfish Ashamed of the Goo GooDolls.

Katie (02:57):
No way, matchbox 20.
That's funny.

Mac (02:59):
That's funny I like Matchbox 20.
My sister gave me a Matchbox 20CD when I was in high school.
I was like, just trust me.

Josiah (03:07):
That's what she said to me.

Katie (03:08):
She was like just trust me.

Mac (03:10):
And did it work?
I mean, I generally have likemy sister's preferences.
I hold them in high regard so Igot into it for a little bit,
but it wasn't like, oh, this ismy all-time new favorite artist
or anything.

Katie (03:20):
Yeah, I still like that Hanson Mbop Do you remember Mbop
that?
Came on the other day.
I like that song.

Mac (03:27):
Really, yeah, okay, I've got a long list.
What about you, mac?
Yeah, I don't know if I'mashamed of this, but I still
enjoy listening to Nirvanasometimes, oh, okay.

Josiah (03:38):
Yeah.

Mac (03:41):
Yeah, you don't know, but I I don't know.
I tend to listen to a widevariety of music.
I just don't love country music, not a big fan.
Yeah, so sorry for all of youcountry fans out there nothing
against you I honor yourpreference.
It's just not my favorite genre.

Josiah (03:59):
I had uh I used to tease .
I should say that I I've alwayshad probably a negative view of
people going to see Legacy X,so like has been bands that are
still touring and I'm like why,are they still going around and
I Nickelback headlined Country.
Thunder and I had the chance togo to it and you bought a

(04:24):
t-shirt, didn't you?
I'm telling you that I had suchan awesome experience because I
knew all the songs and it's notlike it's not like they were
ever my favorite band, but itwas so fun and everybody
everybody was just like superinto it and it was like hey, we
know this is lame, but we stilllike it.

(04:45):
It's like Nickelback and Creedjust like go away.
It was actually reallyrefreshing and I ended up buying
a t-shirt, a Nickelback t-shirt.

Mac (04:57):
I loved it yeah, I would say I would have a lot of
embarrassment if I told you someof the musical artists like
Christian musical artists that Igrew up listening to that I
really enjoyed.

Josiah (05:09):
So, yeah, enjoyed.

Mac (05:11):
Well, I would say, if you put on like DC Talks Jesus,
freak album.

Josiah (05:14):
I could still listen to the whole thing and enjoy it,
but it's not something I couldrepeat more than once a year.
You know what I mean.

Mac (05:21):
But there are a lot of bands that I thought in that
season of my life that musicreally wasn't even that great
and I'm kind of embarrassed thatI liked it you enjoy it for
nostalgic purposes only you knowwhat's interesting?

Josiah (05:35):
you mentioned Hanson and Mbop.
I can't do it anymore and thishappened post high school.
We had a fundraiser thathappened in our high school and
the fundraiser was called stopthe bop and they would play mbop
from a half an hour beforeschool, in between every class

(06:01):
and during all the lunches onrepeat, and after school for a
half an hour until we raisedenough money oh my god, whose
idea was this?
I don't know, that's like Iforgot it's torture, yeah so
right away.
It was kind of fun.
Everybody was like it was kindof fun to watch how it happened,
you know it's like everybody'slike you know, dancing around on

(06:23):
the hallway pretending theylove it.
A couple days in they're still.
They're kind of teasing it andthen it kind of like it kind of
like just blended into thebackground, but then I think
people just started gettingreally irritated.

Mac (06:37):
Yeah, it's like the pastor standing in front is like
nobody's leaving until we getthis amount of money coming in.

Josiah (06:42):
It's ridiculous To a bunch of kids, yeah, an embargo
leaving until we get this amountof money coming in.

Mac (06:44):
It's ridiculous To a bunch of kids.

Josiah (06:45):
Yeah.
An embargo, yeah, it was a funidea and I think they ended up
pulling it down.
Before that, we raised money,because there was just these
buckets everywhere.

Katie (06:57):
I feel like that's one of those ideas that wouldn't fly
today.

Josiah (07:00):
I don't know, but I'll tell you what it ruined the song
for me.

Mac (07:04):
Well, speaking of mbopping and stopping the bops, we're in
a series on forgiveness rightnow.
Stop the bop.

Josiah (07:13):
That's what we're going to call the series from now on,
stop the bop.

Mac (07:17):
Now, one of the things we've been doing which I've
really enjoyed over the last fewepisodes, with kind of the goal
of encouraging or inspiring orimagining what forgiveness can
look like, is we've been doing afeature story of forgiveness
and some of them have beenreally powerful.
We talked about Ruby Bridges,corrie, ten Boom.
Last time I shared the story ofthe Amish community at the

(07:39):
Nickel Mine School and it'd befun to do another one.
So, katie, I know you've youwanted to share a little bit
about Nelson Mandela.

Katie (07:48):
Do you?

Mac (07:48):
want to do, you want to dive into that?

Katie (07:50):
Yeah, yeah.
So maybe about a year or so ago, alex and I watched a movie on
Nelson Mandela and, um, I don'tthink he's a Christian as far as
I know.
So maybe he is, I just don'tknow.
But, all that to say, I'm notholding him up as like a perfect
embodiment of all thingsChristian values, but his story
really struck me because it hadsome powerful lessons in

(08:12):
forgiveness and reconciliation.
So yeah, nelson Mandela was ablack man who lived under
apartheid in South Africa in themid 20th century.
Apartheid was a system of justinstitutionalized racial
segregation.
So black South Africans weredenied the right to vote, they
were forced to live in separateareas, they were even, like,
forcibly removed from theirhomes and sent to, like,

(08:34):
overcrowded camps.
They were on the receiving endof terrible brutality and
violence at the hands of thegovernment.
It was really, really bad.
And so there were protesters.
There was a peaceful resistancemovement that started peaceful.
As the massacres continued andit got worse and worse, they
ended up using, I think,violence without trying to kill

(08:58):
people, whatever.
It started out as a peacefulprotest.
Nelson Mandela was a leader inthat resistance movement.
He ended up being arrested in1962 because of his involvement
with the resistance movement.
And then he spent 27 years inprison where he was subject to
forced labor, just brutalconditions.
He was beaten, abusedphysically, psychologically,

(09:19):
threatened with violence anddeath if he didn't comply like
conditions that would be reallyunthinkable for any of us.
And then, 27 years later, he'sreleased and they admit they
didn't have a basis to arresthim.
And when he's released, ratherthan calling for retribution or
coming out bitter or vengeful,he commits himself to fighting
for reconciliation.

(09:40):
And four years later, afterbeing released, he becomes South
Africa's first black presidentand when it's time for his
inauguration, he invites formerjailers to attend his
inauguration as a gesture ofinclusion and reconciliation.
He also went on to work withDesmond Tutu's Truth and

(10:01):
Reconciliation Commission, which, if you're familiar with that,
they brought together victimsand oppressors under that system
of apartheid and facilitateddialogue that was rooted in
truth-telling and forgivenessrather than in punishment or
prison time.
So that was really powerful andI think the movie, the story of

(10:24):
his life and how he embodiedthis reconciliation to me was
just a really powerful exampleof what it looks like to do the
internal work of forgiveness andhow that can have massive, not
only internal consequences, butstart like this social movement.
He absorbed injustice andrefused to return hate, which is

(10:46):
what typically would have beenthe case, and because of it, a
really powerful movement grewout of that.
That's now like a big part ofhistory.

Mac (10:54):
Yeah, and I think one piece of that story, what it unlocks
for me is that he was able tohold on to fighting for justice
and improvement while alsoelevating reconciliation.
Those weren't seen as oppositeor incompatible.
Rather, he was able to do both.

(11:15):
I'm going to continue to workfor change in my culture and in
my country by advocating forjustice and righteousness, while
at the same time, holding out ahand even to those who abused
me in jail, to be reconciled andto be part of this restored new
vision for how we can operateas a society.

(11:36):
I think that's really beautiful.

Katie (11:38):
Yeah, that's true.

Mac (11:39):
Well, that's a great story, Katie, and thanks for bringing
it.
We are in the series onforgiveness and we're just kind
of naming this tension that, onthe one hand, we know that God
forgives us and we know thatforgiveness is a really high
value for God, but then, on theother hand, we really struggle
with it.
We often struggle to forgiveothers, we struggle to forget

(12:00):
ourselves, and so we've justbeen doing a deep dive into all
the different facets that gointo forgiveness.
Now, we've covered a lot of bigtopics so far, and I'm going to
review these because number oneit's easy to forget, our
memories leak, and so even indoing this quick review, it
might be helpful for you.
But the other thing is thatthese really do build on each

(12:21):
other, so we're kind ofpresenting this in a little bit
of a linear way on purpose.
So here's a quick summary ofwhere we've been.
We started by distinguishingbetween what forgiveness is and
what it is not, and the reasonfor this is because there's a
lot of confusion about whatforgiveness is, and one of the
reasons why we get stuck inunforgiveness is that we confuse

(12:43):
it for something it's not.
So what we're resisting isn'tactually forgiveness, but we're
resisting something other thanforgiveness.
So having a clear definition offorgiveness is really important
, and we're going to return tothat today.
The second thing we covered waswe talked about the cycle of
enemy making, or what we alsocalled the flywheel of
unforgiveness, and you can checkout our show notes where we

(13:05):
have a diagram of it.
But the basic idea is that whensomeone wrongs us and we begin
to ruminate on that wrong, ithardens our heart towards the
other person.
Then we treat them as less thana human being, we de-imagi-o-de
them, we start viewing them asan enemy or an other and then,
finally, we seek revenge, whichoften leaks out with varying
degrees of intensity and harm.

(13:25):
Then we talked about the thirdepisode.
We talked about how to get outof the cycle of enemy making,
and it was very simple Insteadof viewing the wrongdoer as an
enemy, you simply pivot andbegin to look at the person of
Jesus, who forgave his enemieson the cross and said Father,
forgive them, for they know notwhat they do.

(13:46):
And then the last episode.
We named the first major step,once you've chosen to move
towards forgiveness, which is,instead of brushing aside the
wrongdoing, to actually name thetruth of what happened, to
write out the impact that it hadon you and lament it, grieve it
in Jesus's presence, whileremaining open to his healing.

(14:07):
So that's what we've covered sofar, and today we're going to
take one more step.
After you've named the hurt andgrieved it and lamented it,
what does it actually look likethen to extend forgiveness?
When you decide you're going toforgive someone else, what does
this actually involve?
So today we're going to unpackthe mechanics of forgiveness and

(14:29):
I'm hoping also that, just askind of like a little note, I'm
hoping we can spend some timetalking about, once we've
forgiven, the impact that has onus and, potentially, the other
person when we've chosen toforgive.
How's that sound?

Katie (14:43):
Yeah, sounds good.
Sounds like today will be thepractice episode.
We've had practices embodied toeach of these episodes, right?

Mac (14:50):
Yes.

Katie (14:50):
Today is kind of like the big practice.
Now we're doing it.

Mac (14:53):
Yeah, that's right.
And maybe to get us started, Iwant to review the definition we
landed on in that first episodemany, many moons ago, because
this actually sets the stage forhow we're actually going to
encourage you to engage it.
In other words, like thecomponents of this definition
are the very steps you're goingto take to when you choose to

(15:15):
forgive.
So here was the definition thatwe put together.
Forgiveness is the intentionalprocess of choosing to no longer
count another person's sin orwrongdoing against them.
It is the cancellation of adebt owed without the need for
payment, to open up the door tothe possibility of
reconciliation.

(15:35):
And that's inspired by 2Corinthians, chapter 5, where
we're called to be ministers ofreconciliation or ambassadors of
reconciliation.
So let's start to use thisdefinition to break down, once
you've made the choice I'm goingto forgive, what does that
actually look like?
How do we do this?

Josiah (15:53):
Yeah Well, you have to start with the notion that
forgiveness is a choice, and Iwould say that I don't know if
everybody experiencesforgiveness this way.
Often we are caught up in theemotional climate of hurt and

(16:16):
pain, or pride, or stubbornnessand resistance.
I even think about this when youknow, if we're the to name that
, although it's good to name theimpact emotionally and

(16:49):
physically and psychologically,all of these things at the end
of the day, the ability tochoose lies with us, and once
you fix your eyes on Jesus andyou've made the decision to move
towards forgiveness, you'velamented the impact.
All that's great.
Now it's time to actually do it, and the reason why it's so

(17:10):
important is because choosingyour response in the process of
pain is your reclaiming of youragency.
So when someone wrongs you,there's an element of your own
agency, of what you get to doand decide, which is stolen from
you, and you're left with ahurt or a wound, and sometimes

(17:33):
these are very large ones thattake a lifetime to overcome.
Other times they're small, butwe often remain stuck in those
and the ability to choose is ussaying no, I am the one who's
going to determine if I moveforward or not.
The other person does not getto determine.

Mac (17:52):
I think you're naming something really important, if
we could just pause.
There's a discontinuity, orsometimes a lack of alignment,
between the emotive part offorgiveness and the cognitive
part of forgiveness.
So the emotions might be sayingone thing pain hurt, right.
But you're saying, hey, whatwe're talking?

(18:15):
The choice to forgive requiresyour volition overriding those
feelings.

Josiah (18:21):
Yeah, and the process of doing that is important.
That's why we've named.
It's taken this many episodesto get here, because just waking
up and saying I can ignore myemotional state in order to so
that I can forgive We've talkedabout that.

Mac (18:37):
That's not we're not spiritual bypassing or doing any
of that.

Josiah (18:40):
We're not going to be dismissive about the impact it
had, but at the end of the day,the forgiveness lies with our
will and not necessarily withour emotions, and it's very
important to not conflate thetwo as the same thing.
I found a quote from Corrie TenBoom.
Remember that she was one ofour feature forgiveness stories.

(19:00):
She famously said thatforgiveness is an act of the
will and the will can functionregardless of the temperature of
the heart.
She's trying to name thisdifference, say that again,
because that's rich.
Forgiveness is an act of thewill, and the will can function
regardless of the temperature ofthe heart.

Mac (19:21):
That reminds me of another quote that I can't remember who
said it, but it's becomesomething we say somewhat
frequently on our staff thatfeelings make lousy leaders but
excellent mirrors.
So it's just the idea thatfeelings can be impulsive and
misleading.
They can keep you stuck, theycan be reactive, and when we let
them drive us they can bereactive, and when we let them

(19:43):
drive us, we're often not makingour most principled choices or
decisions.
Right, yeah, but I also likedwhat you said.
There's a reason why we'retalking about volition now.
We, just in the last episode,spent so much time essentially
honoring our emotions and theimpact that this hurt or pain
had on us, but that doesn't getthe last word right.

(20:06):
The emotions give us access.
They function as a mirror toshow us the hurt and pain that
this wrongdoing caused me, andwe are going to look at the
mirror and we are going tolament its impact.
You've done that now.
You've honored your emotions,you've named the wrongdoing, and
now it's time to exercise someagency despite that.

Josiah (20:26):
Yeah, I've heard it put that the feelings are like the
gauges and the indicators on thecar, but they're great for
indicating that something'swrong or making sure that
everything's tuned up properlythe way it should be.
Um, but it's not necessary.

(20:47):
Uh, it would be unnecessary tolet feelings be in the driver's
seat and turning the wheel.
Yes, I like that.
So, and and I, uh, I want to becareful to not to not add a
layer of shame onto feelingstrongly within the process of
forgiveness.
It's important to name, aswe've said, the impact someone

(21:09):
had, something had, on you, andnaming that is actually really
important.
We don't want to bypass it oradd shame onto the fact that
you're feeling like you don'twant to forgive someone, because
that's a very natural part ofthe process.
We're just trying to name that.

Mac (21:25):
We need to have a mental model of separating how we feel
within the process offorgiveness and our ability to
choose to forgive, and thisdovetails really well on like
our emotional EQ podcast seriesbecause, like that was a key, a
key component of emotionalmaturity is not only being

(21:46):
attuned to yourself, what you'refeeling, but then being able to
show up like self-regulate showup either because of that
feeling or despite that feeling,in ways that are appropriate.
So this is just kind of a markof maturity.
You know, yeah, I wonder foryou guys we're talking about,
hey, you might be feeling onething and you're going to have

(22:07):
to choose.
Despite that, when it comes toforgiveness, I just wonder, have
you experienced that before,specifically with someone that
you know you're supposed toforgive?
And what was that internaldialogue like for you when
you're going, ah, I'm feelingthis, but I know that the right

(22:30):
thing to do is to forgive.
You know what I mean.

Katie (22:33):
Yeah, yeah, I have a story I could share and it's
been quite a few years, um, sosome of the details are fuzzy,
but I, um, I remember having asituation with a friend who
thought I said something to hurtthem.
They had been told by someoneelse that I said something right
.
So we all know how that goes,where it gets kind of gets
mischaracterized through thetelephone game and, rather than

(22:55):
approaching me about it, shegave me the silent treatment and
we were on vacation together,so like close proximity, and I'm
given the silent treatment forlike two or three days.
I think it was like three daysat the end and I had tried to
initiate conversation multipletimes within that and it didn't
go anywhere.
And I don't know about you guys,I hate the silent treatment.

(23:17):
Like I just I hate it.
I hate being on the receivingend of it.
I don't feel like it's a fairmove relationally.
Like man, I get reallyfrustrated because I'm someone
who likes to talk through thingsand it just it kind of feels
like a power struggle to me,like I just I have lots of
thoughts, okay, so in thismoment I've gotten three days

(23:39):
Next episode.

Josiah (23:40):
Yeah, next episode.

Katie (23:41):
I've gotten three days to just sit and like this is
really unfair, like I just kindof I don't know, you know just
kind of fester in those feelingsof how unfair this was to me.
I don't know about you guys,but it's hard enough to forgive
someone when they aren't askingfor it.
I feel like it's even harderwhen they feel like you've done

(24:03):
something wrong.
So here I was, in thissituation, feeling like I was
hurt, and I remember feelinglike, okay, I need to forgive
her, but that is so not what Iwant to do, because not only is
she not asking for it, but she'sactually thinking I did
something wrong.
So it was just a whole mess ofemotions.
But I do remember.
I do remember doing the work offorgiveness in that situation,

(24:27):
and I did it before we were evenable to talk because I wasn't
given the opportunity to talk toher, and so so I did the hard
work of forgiveness and Iremember that when we did then
finally come together, what itdid was it helped me not
hyper-focus on the ways that Ifelt like I had been wronged,

(24:48):
which would have been my default.
It would have been my default toonly go into the conversation
being like how did you do thisto me?
Sometimes, when there is theback and forth like you
mentioned, let's be honest, alot of times when we're in
conflict, I think there's somemutual responsibility and I know

(25:09):
for me it can be really easy tohyper-focus on the ways that
I've been hurt and I think inthat situation, choosing
forgiveness towards her allowedme then to to have that dialogue
.
Once we got there with graceand truth like name the truth of
here's how you hurt me.
This wasn't okay, this wasn'tokay for you to treat me this
way and it really hurt me butthen also to extend grace and be
willing to own, maybe where Ihad something to own, and try to

(25:30):
move towards reconciliation.
I'm sure I didn't do itperfectly, but I remember,
looking back and going, I feltlike I was able to embody the
type of posture that I wanted toembody in that conversation
because I did some of thatinternal work Before she was
even asking for it, like beforeshe had done anything and that
internal work I hear you sayingwas not free of complication.

Mac (25:53):
It was hard to get there right.
I mean, we want to normalizethat, that when your emotions
are saying one thing and youknow your volition needs to
override that, it's hard.
I remember this was maybe fouror five years ago in the fall we
were going to take our kids ona camping trip and pull them out

(26:13):
of school early and kind ofmake it a fun weekend.
We were going to go to Devil'sLake and leading up to the
camping trip my parents werelike you know, we have all this
camping stuff.
They used to camp a lot whenthey were younger but haven't
used it in years.
They're like, hey, do you wantanything?
And I'm like, yeah, likevintage camping gear will be
awesome, you know.
And so they gave us this oldcamping stove and then this

(26:37):
lantern, like an old vintageColeman lantern, and I remember
trying to get it to work.
It was like this longcouple-week process of like it's
not working.

Josiah (26:47):
They're finicky.

Mac (26:48):
Yeah, they're finicky.
And then I had to get some likejust some new pieces and finally
I got it working with my dad'shelp and we were ready for the
trip.
So the night before we leave,all of our camping gear is kind
of like in the basement andwe're like let's load up the car
so tomorrow we can just go.
We both had some things to dothat we can jump in the car, get
our kids and go, and so I'm outon like the driveway arranging

(27:13):
these all the bags and gear asit comes out, so it all fits in
our van and josie and the kidsare like bringing things to the
door for me.
And at one point I'm making atrip back to the house to get
the next bag or whatever pieceof gear and I hear a loud noise

(27:34):
and I'm like, oh, what was that?
So I go inside and I'm at thetop of our stairs looking down
the stairs and josie is standingat the bottom of the stairs in
our basement and the lantern ison the floor with glass
everywhere shattered shattered,yeah, shattered your precious
lantern, my precious lantern andher response was she goes.

(27:54):
I am so sorry.
And I looked at her and I go, Ican't right now.
And I walked into the livingroom Because I had spent like
weeks trying to get this thingworking and I remember
distinctly, like sitting on thecoffee room table like fuming

(28:17):
with frustration, like I have afew weeks now invested into this
vintage lamp and now it's onthe floor in a million pieces
and kind of wrestling through,like she apologized right away.
There was no like deflection orblame.
She didn't go.
Hey, the dog nudged me.
Like it was none of that.
She apologized right away.
There was no deflection orblame, she didn't go.
Hey, the dog nudged me.
It was none of that.
She owned it right away.
And it took me a good 20minutes to be like, okay, I'm

(28:38):
going to calm down and realizethere's no fixing this now and I
have to accept her apology andextend forgiveness.
The good news is we haveSherpers in town.

Katie (28:51):
I was just going to say you had Sherpers a couple blocks
away.

Mac (28:55):
Yeah, and so I deviated briefly that morning and stopped
by and they had a new globe togo over it and I got to use it.
So it worked out.
It worked out.
But I distinctly remember theinternal battle of anger,
frustration that she had alreadyapologized for, and going but

(29:17):
do I really want to grant it toher?
You know what I mean, I do.
I know that feeling very well.
I'm glad that I didn't ruin mymarriage over the Coleman
lantern.

Josiah (29:25):
We're all glad for that.
It would have been her faultanyway, yeah.

Mac (29:33):
Oh, that's so good.

Josiah (29:35):
All right.
So we've made the choice toforgive and we're acknowledging
that it's a choice, somethingthat's like an act of the will,
not necessarily waiting foremotions to be done.
I think it's important to namethat.
You need to make it actionablerather than just in my mind.
I'm thinking, okay, I'llforgive him.

(29:57):
It needs to be actionable, andI would suggest that the best
way to make that actionable isto write it down.
So take a journal out and writeout your letter of forgiveness.
It could be something simple.
It could just be a littleparagraph, a couple sentences,
or maybe just one.
I choose to forgive so-and-sofor this thing.

Mac (30:20):
Yeah, get your moleskine.
Is that what you said?
It's pronounced that wayMoleskine.

Josiah (30:26):
You know, someone told me that, and then someone else
said that's ridiculous.

Katie (30:30):
Yeah, I think that person is wrong.

Josiah (30:32):
I think they purposely make it hard to pronounce.
Who knows?

Katie (30:35):
Yeah, well, going back to our definition, so we're
breaking it down here.
Right, we just covered.
Forgiveness is a choice.
It's something that has to bedone with some intentionality.
The next part of our definitionis that forgiveness is the
cancellation of a debt.
So forgiveness is like you'recanceling a debt without
demanding repayment for that.

(30:55):
Maybe you made Josie pay forthe lantern out of her own piggy
bank.

Mac (30:58):
Oh yeah, I think I did.

Katie (31:01):
But no, we want to cancel the debt.
And there are two parts to this.
The first part is verballydeclaring forgiveness in some
way.
So once you've written out,josiah, that you're going to
forgive this person, the nextstep is to actually do so.
This is where you actuallyrelease them from the wrongdoing
, by verbally declaring it, likeyou're stating it out loud.

(31:22):
We have leadership intensives,josiah, you and I are both
leading a leadership intensiveright now.
One thing we talk about in thosegroups is about pronouncing
good news over someone.
Right, we have a whole step inthe process called declare where
you're, you're writing downgood news and then you're
actually saying it.
I think it's one thing, that toknow the good news that God

(31:43):
says about us like I'm a childof God, I'm loved, whatever it's
another thing to declare thator have someone else declare
that over me in a way thatspeaks directly to me.
I just think there's somethingpowerful that happens when we
put words to something.
So I think there's a fewdifferent ways this could look.
One could be by prayingforgiveness over the other
person.
We can pray forgiveness oversomeone or declare it over them

(32:06):
without involving them at all.
Again, like my story, itdoesn't matter where they're at,
whether they see that they'vehurt you, you don't need them to
be involved in them at all.
Again, like my story, itdoesn't matter where they're at,
whether they see that they'vehurt you like you don't need
them to be involved in this atall.
Praying forgiveness oversomething, over someone, is
something that can happen justwith you and God, and it can be
an opportunity to really just toopen up your heart and to ask
God to help you forgive them.
If you're not there on your own, talking about that volitional

(32:28):
aspect of it, it's okay to say,god, I want to forgive them, I'm
declaring forgiveness over them, but, man, my heart's not there
and can you help me?

Mac (32:38):
And I think it might be helpful.
Even if you're not gonna talkto that person, you can always
invite someone in to pray withyou, and that can be really
powerful to go hey, I'm gonnashare with a trusted friend, I'm
gonna forgive this person andI'm going to pray forgiveness
over them.
Would you pray with me?
And I just think that's reallypowerful because then you're
almost creating someaccountability around the choice

(32:58):
you're making.
I've made the choice to forgiveand they're supporting me as I
release this debt, as I cancelit.
I still like the journal optiona lot, just because everything
we've been doing in this seriesso far is like writing down step
by step by step.
So, taking what Josiah said,it's a choice, and you write out
okay, jesus, I'm going tochoose to forgive.

(33:21):
And then the next step is towrite out a prayer of
forgiveness for that person,like I forgive you for, let's
just say, you had a close friendand they betrayed your trust.
I forgive you for betraying mytrust.
I forgive you for not stayingtrue to our friendship.
I forgive you for the wrong andhurtful things you said about

(33:44):
me, whatever.
And then I like to name the whybehind it Because Jesus has
forgiven me, me, or because Godhas already forgiven you, or
because this is what God wantsme to do.
So the first part is I'mforgiving you for A, b, c or D,

(34:04):
and then the second part of thesentence is like and here's why,
because I'm aligning myselfwith the good news of Jesus,
yeah, so yeah, I think you knowthese are good starting points
to go.
Hey, maybe it just involves theverbal proclamation of
forgiveness.
Could be a prayer, um, it couldbe journaling or writing it out
so you have a record of it thatyou can return to.

(34:26):
You know anything else that youguys can think of?

Josiah (34:29):
Yeah, I think you can also take it.
The next step would be to talkto them.
There's often a I shouldn't sayoften, but sometimes you have
the gift of being able to beclose enough with this person
that you can tell them youforgive them.
And to note, this isn'tnecessary, like we've named, for

(34:51):
forgiveness is something youcan do on your own, even if this
other person isn't willing tohear it, but there's a if it.
I think, if at all possible, Iwould name that talking directly
to the person and declaringyour forgiveness for them is a
is a really significant way thatwe get to participate in God's

(35:12):
redemptive work.
We get to communicate ourforgiveness and, as a part of
that, we actually become sort ofthis pipeline of God's
forgiveness towards them, and Ithink that's really important.
I think it's like I said toname.

(35:32):
This doesn't have to happen, um, and it's not required in order
for us to forgive someone, butin the process of you forgiving
someone, if it's possible andthis person is safe enough or
we'll be able to hear it, um,telling them could be a really
powerful moment.

Mac (35:49):
Hmm, strikes me that actually all three of these
could fit together really well.
I mean, maybe it starts withwriting it out I'm choosing to
forgive, and then you write aprayer of forgiveness, then you
pray it out loud, you prayforgiveness over the other
person, and then that sets thestage for you actually to
initiate a conversation withthem, if it's possible and wise.

(36:11):
One of the things that I findhelpful, especially when people
are struggling with that releasemoment, that actually canceling
the debt.
I mean that's like giving up.
I'm no longer going to holdthis against you, I'm canceling
it.
That can be a tough moment.
If we're honest.
I'm no longer going to likehold the shattered lantern
against you in my marriage.

(36:31):
It's not going to do that.
Big stuff, big stuff.
I mean we're talking you knowwe're talking about lanterns
here.
Coleman, but over the yearsI've developed and not all of
these are mine but noted someexercises that might be helpful
when it comes to like the actualmoment of I'm releasing.
This One was one that Josie didand invited me into it, so we

(36:58):
did it together, but it's likewe have a little solo stove that
goes on top of like our picnictable during the summer.

Katie (37:06):
Those are nice.

Mac (37:07):
Yeah, it's not very big, it was gifted to us and so
sometimes, typically towards theend of the week, we'll just
light a solo stove and sit outand talk and catch up a little
bit.
And the exercise was on one.
We had some note cards and onone side we named it was the
name of the person who hadwronged us and on the other side
was sort of like what theaction that happened?

(37:29):
Okay, and we just spent a fewminutes talking about here's,
here's what happened, here'swhat they did, here's how it
impacted me.
So it's kind of like that Mostof what happened last episode.
And then the moment was and Ichoose to forgive them, and then
you drop that into the fire andit goes away.
I like as a representation thatyou're canceling it.

(37:50):
So it's not a you know, burn inhell moment, like you know.
It's more of like no, this is asymbolic, like the wrong is
disappearing in the flames, it'sgone, um, and that that can be
powerful when you lean into it.
I think another one is justlike breath prayer, um,
sometimes what I'll do is I'lltake a person who has wronged me
and I'll just sort of call themto mind while simultaneously

(38:15):
doing the breath prayer offather, forgive them for they
know not what they do, and justkind of like so you sit with
that person in the wrong waydone.
We'll also like um sort ofbreathing in and breathing out
this prayer over them Father,forgive them, for they know not
what they do.

(38:36):
There's a couple other exercisesthat have been meaningful to me
.
One is this sort of imagineyourself on the bank of a river
and you're standing on the shorewith Jesus and you've got a
little raft and imagine justsaying Jesus, here was the wrong
done to me, here's whathappened, here's the impact.
You're lamenting it in hispresence and then, once you're
done doing that, you just takethe wrong and you put it on the

(38:57):
raft and kick it off into theriver and the current takes it
away and you can watch it aslong as you need, but eventually
there's gonna be a moment whereit's too far to see anymore or
it goes around a turn orwhatever.
And then finally and I'veshared this once before is just
imagining standing with thatperson before Jesus in heaven,

(39:18):
that Jesus knows exactly whathappens.
Even when there's a competingnarratives for what transpired,
the full truth is going to comeout and there's going to be an
invitation to move towards eachother with forgiveness, and so
we're to be agents of heaven.
Now, right, and so I thinkthere's something powerful that
happens when you just imaginethat moment right now.
It does something to our heartsand to our disposition.

(39:39):
Where you go.
I'm not gonna wait for thatmoment.
I can be in that moment rightnow.

Katie (39:43):
Yeah, I like those practices and what I noticed
about each of them.
I like that each of them alsohad a component of truth-telling
.
Like and what I noticed abouteach of them.
I like that each of them alsohad a component of truth-telling
, like when you're sittingaround the fire.
At first you're kind of tellingthe truth of what happened and
how you were hurt, and then eventhe Jesus example at the end,
like the truth, comes out, andthat's part of the release.

Josiah (40:00):
And.

Katie (40:01):
I love that.
I think those are reallypowerful examples of how to sort
of like step into this in amore concrete way, like just get
out of our heads right.
A lot of this work can happenin our heads and to go okay, now
I'm going to do something tomemorialize taking the step.

Josiah (40:15):
Yeah, even if it's purely symbolic, there's
something about being able torelease it physically.
Yeah.

Mac (40:23):
So I'd imagine standing on the shore of Jesus and being
like she broke my lantern.
Put the lantern on the raft,matt.

Josiah (40:33):
I picture you sitting and doing this with Josie on the
solo stove.
She's rubbing your back andbeing like you can do it, matt.

Katie (40:43):
You're like I don't know if.
I can put this in the fire.
I can't let it go.
I can't let it go.

Mac (40:49):
That's so funny.
I don't know if that's helpful,but yeah, I think that the
actual releasing of the debt canbe very tricky, because it is a
letting go, it is acancellation, and sometimes
these practices can help bringit to life and enhance that
moment.
But I would say that forgiving,the verbal proclamation of

(41:13):
forgiveness, is not enough.
So when we talk about forgivingbeing the cancellation of debt
owed, I think there's a secondpart that is also essential,
that goes beyond the verbaldeclaration of it, and that is
the embodiment of forgivenesswith your actions, right?
So, yes, we have to verballydeclare it by aligning ourselves

(41:34):
with God God, I'm going toforgive them, and so on and so
forth.
But it makes zero sense toforgive someone and then act
like they're still in thedoghouse.
You know what I mean.
Forgiveness is not just a mentalexercise, it's also a
behavioral one.
So saying I forgive you isimportant, but now it's time to

(41:54):
practice forgiveness by takingsteps towards peace and healing.
So I feel like one of the keyquestions that we need to ask
when it comes to moving beyondjust verbal to embodiment is
what does that actually looklike?
What does it look like, maybe,given this specific person or
this specific situation, toembody forgiveness in a way that

(42:16):
matches or parallels thedeclaration of it.
So let's just explore, like,what that might look like for
you guys when you take the stepto go.
I'm verbally declaring it.
Now I also need to embody it.
My actions need to align withthat.
What might that look like?

Katie (42:33):
Yeah, yes, I know what.
I've been hurt or offended insome way.
I can find myself like temptedto complain about the person or
talk to other people about themnegatively to try to draw them
in, whatever.
So I think you can choose whenyou, if you find yourself
tempted to complain or speaknegatively or gossip about them,

(42:53):
you can instead choose to speaka blessing over them Like God,
soften their heart, give thempeace, or even just say I'm
choosing to bless them ratherthan to curse them.
I think, having some phraseslike that, that you can think or
say out loud can be helpful,like that that you can think or
say out loud, can be helpful.

Mac (43:11):
Yeah, as I was thinking about this, I was thinking that
there's kind of like twocategories.
One is things you need to stopdoing Like if you actually
forgive this person, it'sinappropriate because it
contradicts the forgiveness youdeclared, and a lot of these go
back to the cycle of enemymaking.
So one embodiment offorgiveness is that you just

(43:35):
stop rehearsing the grievance,you stop ruminating on it and
going over and over.
I'm not saying you could nevervent about its impact again, but
for the most part you're donekind of replaying the wrong over
and over and over andruminating on it, because we
know that that leads to a hardheart.

Katie (43:53):
Yeah, and I really can get stuck there.

Mac (43:56):
I think all of us can.
But I'm saying, hey, onepractical outworking of
forgiveness is that that comesto an end.
You're no longer dwelling onthat in the same way.
Another one might be and youwere hovering over this, katie
is that at some point in theenemy-making cycle we start to
take revenge, and maybe a moremild form of that is like gossip

(44:18):
or slander or whatever.
There's a spectrum of intensityand harm.
But I think that one evidencethat you're embodying
forgiveness is that that revengemechanism is turned off.
You're no longer doing that.
You're committed to choosesomething different.

(44:38):
I think affirming their identityis one of those pieces, because
the enemy-making cycle ispartly I've dehumanized them,
I've turned them into an other.
So a positive practice is tosay, hey, look, I'm gonna affirm
their value and worth, thatthis is a person who's created
in God's image, they're someonethat Jesus died for, and so on

(44:59):
and so forth, which is what youwere sort of hovering over, yeah
, you know.
One other thing is, I think,simply extending kindness to
that individual to the degreeyou have an opportunity.
I've had being a pastor in thesame community for 17 years now.
It's inevitable.

(45:19):
You're gonna have somerelational fallout along the way
, and it's always interesting torun into those people in the
community once they've left oronce your relationship has ended
.
And I think one sign that I'vegenuinely forgiven the other
person is that I treat them as ahuman being by extending them a
kind and warm greeting.

(45:40):
You're a human being in mypresence, you're not to be
ignored.
You are worthy of kindness andrespect, and I'll just say
there's some in that.
I've had a fallout.
When I see them, they put theireyes down, they kind of go to
that ghosting mechanism and I'mlike okay, well that they
haven't, for I don't feel forwhatever took place, if they

(46:03):
feel like they I've donesomething wrong, well, they
clearly haven't forgiven mebecause they can't even look at
me.
You know what I mean.
So even if they said they have,well, why aren't we able to
like honor?

Josiah (46:16):
each other's humanity in this moment.
You get what I'm saying.
Yeah, what I hear you twosaying is that, in order to
embody forgiveness, you'reprobably going to have to have a
plan.
Because, although your heartmost likely has softened, the
climate in which that wronghappened is still, you're still
swimming in it.
Yes, so there's going to beopportunities to sort of go back

(46:40):
on your word that you didforgive in that sense.
And so, in order to embodyforgiveness like that, you're
going to have to have a plan onhow you're going to do it.
Forgiveness like that, you'regoing to have to have a plan on
how you're going to do it andand it can be proactive, like
I'm going to do this no matterwhat, or a commitment to stop
doing something when it comesback up things like that.

(47:01):
But that seems really important.

Mac (47:03):
Yeah, yeah, you've got to live it out.
We've all been in that momentwhere you've got a child, two
kids who have been fighting, andyou kind of do the what you
experienced growing up, josiah,like the forced apology, but
then behavior doesn't change andyou realize, oh, it was
insincere.
That's what I'm trying torescue our listeners from is
going okay, I've done all thiswork to verbally declare

(47:23):
forgiveness, but in fact Ihaven't forgiven and it's
leaking out sideways because myactions still embody a lack of
forgiveness.
It's wise to come up with aplan to go.
What is this actually?
If I've forgiven this person,what would that look like now?

Katie (47:34):
yeah, yeah, and I love like the breath prayers or
having like a phrase orstatement or prayer of some sort
that it's readily on hand.
You can write it on post-it nowand put it in your mirror or
something, so that when you cutyour mind going back to the
rumination or when you findyourself kind of falling back
into those old patterns, you cangrasp for it easily.

Josiah (47:55):
Yeah, yeah, and I think this.
I think it's important toremember that forgiveness is a
process, yes, and we've takenmultiple episodes to bring us
through forgiveness.
Like it's sort of like a roadyou walk down.
Forgiveness like it's sort oflike a road you walk down and

(48:16):
although it's really nice whenyou have a cathartic release of
forgiveness and it leads to aninstantaneous reconciliation and
everything is flowers, that'sreally nice and I hope and I
pray that for everybody, but thereality is most of the
situations in which we choose toforgive someone, that's not
going to happen.
We might have a reallysignificant personal experience

(48:36):
where we let go of things thatother people have wronged us for
and we feel a release and wehave a refreshed sense of God's
presence and his love towards usand it helps us to embody that.
That's great and his lovetowards us and it helps us to
embody that.
That's great.
But the reality is forgivenessis going to be an ongoing effort

(48:57):
for most of the people whowrong us and you know we're
going to have to keep choosingand deciding to forgive whenever
you're triggered and you knowbecause, ultimately, the impact
that you felt before, that youlamented earlier on in the
process you're going to probablyfeel it again.

Mac (49:18):
Yeah, dude, I'm so grateful you remind us that it's a
process, because we're obviouslypresenting it as a choice, a
decision.
But the reality is hurt canlinger after forgiveness, and
you use the word trigger.
So whenever you're triggered bythat hurt, that's still
lingering even though you'vedecided to forgive.
Well, now you have that.
Now it's another opportunity.

(49:40):
You have to choose forgivenessor to jump back into the enemy
cycle.
Right, you can ruminate on that, or you can jump right back
into ruminating and, before youknow it, be in that cycle again,
or you can choose to pivot.
But again, forgiveness is adecision in those moments, not a
deletion of your emotions.
It was really important to namethat.

(50:01):
It's a process.
Just because you've forgivenonce, it doesn't mean it's like
a permanent attitude.
You're going to have to keepchoosing.
And one of the things I'venoticed in pastoring people
whenever you preach onforgiveness, you have people
coming up afterwards becauseit's a topic everybody can
relate to and struggles with.
One of the things I noticed isthat many people have taken

(50:21):
steps to forgive, but they stillfeel the pain of whatever wrong
was done and because of thatthey assume they haven't been
forgiven.
And I realized pastorally thatthere is an important moment
there to free them from a senseof guilt or shame that they
haven't done what they thinkthey should do, which is to
forgive and go.
No, you have forgiven.
It's just that you're stillexperiencing the hurt of what

(50:43):
happened to you, and now you'restruggling in the realm of a
process to maintain thatpermanent attitude which is
totally normal and to beexpected.

Josiah (50:54):
Right, yeah, and I would name it.
There's a spectrum along thoselines.
There's the fact that thisperson did wrong you and you
still feel hurt by it.
That would be like on one endof the spectrum, and then
re-experiencing the hurt on theother end would be like someone
who continues to wrong you, whois not interested in reconciling

(51:15):
right.
What does it look like tocontinue to forgive that person
over and over and over?
You know we have the, the, theway jesus explained it, like hey
, like you know, we're not justgoing to forgive someone seven
times or 70 times, 70 timesseven.
Yes, it paints this picturethat forgiveness is often going

(51:41):
to be an ongoing, dailysurrender.

Mac (51:44):
Yes, and I'm hoping we can do an episode about this in a
little bit on what I'm callingkingdom Aikido, because it often
doesn't involve just being apassive pushover either.
So we're going to let's justbookmark that.
I'd like to circle back to thatand go.
What happens when there is arepeat offender?
What does it look like to loveyour enemy while not being

(52:05):
victimized by them?
So let's circle back to thatquestion.
But I love it, I think we're onit and this is a lot of fun.
I wanna maybe transition to thepositive impact of forgiveness.
Okay, so remember we've saidthis before that forgiveness is

(52:25):
a solo, but reconciliation is aduet.
So everything we've outlined sofar, as, Katie, you said, you
can do on your own with God.
It doesn't require the otherperson at all, which is good
news, because that means you canforgive someone who's.
I know people who are trying toforgive someone who isn't alive
anymore, right, so you canforgive people, but the goal of

(52:46):
the gospel isn't justforgiveness, it's reconciliation
, it's restored relationship,and we're gonna talk about that
in our next episode.
What does it look like to beopen to that?
And even if it's in a veryboundary way?
But for now, I wanna ask thequestion what is the impact of
forgiveness?
And let's start with the persondoing the forgiveness?
Let's say you've said I wannaforgive this person.

(53:09):
What impact might that have onthe person engaging the process
of forgiveness?

Josiah (53:14):
So one of the impacts this can have on a person
forgiving is just with theirmental and emotional state
there's a peace and a freedom,like a catharsis.
That often happens when you'rewilling to release someone in
forgiveness.
I'm reminded of the book it'scalled the Soul of Shame.

(53:34):
It talks a lot about how, inmany cases, depression and
anxiety is often the byproductof resentment and bitterness and
hurt and pain that isn't beingdealt with and ultimately, when
we release others, it's likereleasing a weight.

(53:56):
There's a, it can, it's, it'slike releasing a weight.
I guess it would just name yeah, there's like the.
There's this internal processthat can happen and it's a.
It should be a very bigmotivator for us to to walk the
road of forgiveness.

Mac (54:08):
Yeah, I mean refusing to forgive.
Um, it hurts us mentally, right, and so when we forgive it, it
sort of releases us from some ofthe negative impacts that a
lack of forgiveness has, likedepression and anxiety and so on
.
I think another one that Iwould name is the impact that it

(54:28):
can have is it paves the wayfor deeper connections with
other people.
If you're going to have ameaningful relationship with
another human being at somepoint, you're going to need to
learn how to practiceforgiveness.
Human being, at some pointyou're going to need to learn
how to practice forgiveness,because if you're meaningfully
engaged with someone else,you're going to bump into each
other, you're going to havecrashes.
You know what I mean.

(54:48):
You're going to intentionallyor unintentionally hurt and
wound each other.
That's just part.
When I do premarital counseling,I often tell people all right,
tell me about a significantfight you've had.
And I tell them because if youhaven't had one, I'm not going
to marry you because it meansyou're not being real with each
other.
You get what I'm saying.
And so the moment you go, let'sjust normalize that two human

(55:08):
beings who are imperfect aresort of going to bump into each
other.
Well, what do we do.
When that happens, we've got tohave a category for forgiveness
and when we do, thatimmediately equips us to move
past hurts and wrongdoings in away that restores intimacy and
connection in relationship.

Katie (55:29):
Yeah, that's true, that's so true.
And yeah, and doing this workcan help you move towards that
place of trust.
I love that.
Another one I would name wouldbe physiologically.
There is so much evidence outthere on how bad it is for your
body to hold on to bitternessand resentment, right Like
there's more and more researchcoming out.

(55:51):
More and more doctors now, I'mhearing, are actually taking the
opportunity to dive into someof this type of stuff with
patients who have, like, chronicillness or inflammation.
Staying in a place of bitternessand resentment will keep your
body in a chronic state ofstress.
It can lead to high bloodpressure, heart disease,
weakened immune system, poorsleep, it'll age you faster.

(56:13):
I mean autoimmune stuff, likeyou name it.
There's just there's.
There's so much bad work thatcan happen in your body when we
hold on to bitterness andresentment or anger, and so
doing the work of forgivenesscan actually have really
significant physiologicalimpacts, and I think we're just
honestly, I think we're probablyjust um scratching the surface
of that.

(56:33):
My guess would be that, youknow, as time goes on and all
this research continues, we'regoing to be even have more
awareness of how important thatis.

Mac (56:43):
I wonder if cold plunging would help.
Just a cold plunge pitch here.
I do think it resets something.
Why are you looking at me likethat?

Josiah (56:55):
Cold plunging as a replacement for forgiveness?

Mac (56:58):
no, not as a replacement as a key aid in resetting your
body as you forgive because ifthe wrongdoing that you've
experienced has created trauma,your body stores that trauma,
your body keeps the score, andthat happens in your central
nervous system.
It's dumping cortisol into yoursystem and, uh well, cold

(57:22):
plunging is one of those thingsthat activates your
parasympathetic nervous systemand sort of slows down the
central nervous system frombeing in overdrive.

Katie (57:29):
So can you get the same effect by sitting in a sauna?
No that's what I want to know.

Josiah (57:34):
Yeah, you can go back and forth, how?

Mac (57:35):
about a long hot shower Get the same thing.
That's good, I totally agreewith you, and all of the
research is shedding more andmore light on this area.
And then the final one.
I'll just say the impact on theperson.
Forgiving is just like analignment, like spiritually
you're now aligned with God andwhat God has already done
Through Jesus.
God has already forgiven ourwrongs, including the wrongs

(57:57):
that other people commit againstus, and so in a sense you're
sort of removing.
When we refuse to forgive,we're sort of out of alignment
with God, we're working againstthe gospel.
But when we extend forgiveness,we're now aligning ourselves
with the good news.
And I don't know I mean I feltit before when you're stuck in
that place of I don't reallywanna forgive, I would name

(58:21):
maybe this sounds weird, butjust like God's heavy hand on
you, like no, this isn't theplace I want you to be.
You know what I mean.
And when you forgive, there'slike something clicks into place
where you're like, oh, I'm now,my heart and my actions are
aligned with God's heart andactions yeah.

Josiah (58:45):
It's like you're back on track.
Yes, yeah, yeah, I would.
I mean we have said it before,but there's, I think it's just
one of the primary ways we getto participate in God's
restorative work in the world isthrough forgiveness and and I
don't you know I remember the,the story that we shared a few
weeks ago from Corrie Ten Boom,where she had to forgive.
She had the chance to forgiveone of the guards that was

(59:07):
overseeing her at theconcentration camp, and the
experience she had in finallybeing able to do it and how much
she sensed God's love was notonly for her but flowing out
into the other person.
I think it's just reallypowerful.
And that leads us to the factthat this positive impact is not

(59:28):
only something we get toexperience when we forgive, but
I would imagine that there are alot of impacts that this could
have on the other person thatwe're forgiving.
So I wonder you know we cantake a second to flesh that out
what are some of the positiveimpacts that us forgiving others
has on them?

Mac (59:48):
I like that you're bringing that up, because I've heard
pastors and preachers say thingslike well, forgiveness is for
you.
It's like, well, yeah, it is,but let's not pretend like it's
just for me, as if, like, we canjust orient to this selfishly.
It's also designed to have animpact on the people in the
community around us.
Yeah, and.

Katie (01:00:06):
I can attest to that.
I would think we all could Likethink of a time that we have
been forgiven, like when I'vebeen on the receiving end of
forgiveness.
It feels like freedom, like itfeels like someone sort of
releasing you and you end up inthe receiving end of grace, like
it's like God's grace.
It can release you from guilt,shame, regret, like all those

(01:00:31):
emotions that can come withdoing harm to someone.
It can prompt personal growthwhen you're on the receiving end
of forgiveness.
I think it can be like a lightbulb moment to go hmm, okay,
like, what would it look likefor me to embody that posture of
forgiveness towards otherpeople in my life, et cetera.
It can restore relationship andtrust.
I mean, I think there's such anlike an overflow, a domino

(01:00:54):
effect that can happen when weforgive someone else.
If anything, it makes them morelikely to be able to extend
grace towards others.

Mac (01:01:02):
Yeah, I think you're right that when you have gotten
present to the impact that youractions have had on someone else
so you felt the sting of it andthey extend forgiveness to you,
you receive grace.
It can be a powerful motivatorto become the kind of person
that does that as well, and Iwould also say that that's when

(01:01:22):
you're on the receiving end offorgiveness.
But sometimes just viewing,watching a courageous person do
the work of forgiveness caninspire those around them.
That's why these featurestories, I think, are so cool,
because you know, listening toRuby Bridges or Corrie Ten Boom
or whatever they're inspiring,their stories have inspired

(01:01:43):
other people to do thecourageous work of forgiveness
in their own individual lives,of which we may know nothing
about.
So when you do the work offorgiving someone else, you may
not know who you're inspiringand who then they're inspiring,
and so on.
It creates a different ripplein the world.

Josiah (01:01:58):
Yeah yeah, and it's the right kind of witness to have in
the world too.
Yeah yeah.

Mac (01:02:03):
All right, guys, it is Praxis time.

Katie (01:02:06):
Praxis podcast.

Mac (01:02:08):
So let's get into some practices.
I'm like, okay, you've listenedto this conversation, now what
could I practically do whenchoosing forgiveness?

Josiah (01:02:18):
Yeah, first practice I would name is to write out a
letter, to write it down.
You choose to forgive someone,you're going to write down your
intention to forgive them.
And I say a letter because Ithink that journaling within
that whole context and gettingall of your thoughts and

(01:02:42):
feelings on the paper can be acathartic type of experience on
its own, but also allows you toview it again and then kind of
sit with Jesus with it.
And that's not to say that youhave to give it to the other
person that you're forgiving,but often writing it down, like
we said before, getting it allon paper, sitting with Jesus.

Mac (01:03:07):
Super important.
So you're saying somethingdifferent than journaling about
it.
You're saying you're writing aletter to the person who has
wronged you, declaringforgiveness to them.
Yes, and you're saying and inlight of that, it may be that
you send it, but that's notrequired.
In fact, in most cases youprobably won't.
It's more for you.

Josiah (01:03:25):
Yeah, yeah.
It's like giving you theclosure of being able to say it
yeah, even if you'll never getto face them face to face.

Mac (01:03:34):
Yeah.
Second practice would just beto do one of those exercises on
releasing the wrongdoing.
Again, that is a major step.
It's a hang-up moment that manypeople struggle with.
So if you have a solo stove ora fireplace in your house, you
could try doing that Again.
It's not a hey, this person isgoing to burn in hell.
It's a right.
The heartbeat is the consuming.

(01:03:56):
The piece of paper is cancelingthe debt.
That's the association.

Katie (01:04:00):
You're not sitting there with voodoo dolls.
Right, right, right.

Mac (01:04:03):
That would be the exact opposite of what this entire
series is about.
The breath prayer I mentionedis you just hold that person in
mind with the idea of Fatherforgive them.
The river release or imaginingheaven are all good exercises
for releasing the wrongdoing.

Katie (01:04:18):
Mm-hmm, yeah.
And then, lastly, I would sayyou can actually develop a plan
to help you embody forgiveness,and we touched on this
throughout the episode.
We've already put other ideasout there, but some ideas could
be as simple as like movingtowards the person physically,
like next time you're in a spacewith them, rather than avoiding
them or giving them the coldshoulder, move towards them.

(01:04:39):
You could pick up your phoneand text them something like hey
, I'm thinking of you, I hopeyou're well.
You can choose eye contact anda smile versus avoidance.
You can choose to speak well ofthat person in front of others
or offer help when they need it.
There are all sorts of waysthat you can just take a small
step to embody forgiveness andsometimes, when we notice our

(01:05:00):
emotions aren't there, I thinksometimes taking those embodied
steps can actually help ouremotions catch up.

Mac (01:05:09):
Well, our Coleman lantern still exists and is still usable
.
I didn't let Josie carry it ortouch it on our trip, so maybe
in the future.

Katie (01:05:21):
It takes a while to restore a dress.

Mac (01:05:22):
It does it does, which is actually what we're gonna get
into in our next episode.
So thanks for joining us today.
Forgiveness is a solo.
It's something you can do byyourself, but reconciliation is
a duet.
It requires the other person,and so next time we're going to
talk about how to be open toreconciliation without demanding
it from the other person or,you know, compromising healthy

(01:05:44):
boundaries.
So it's it's.
It's a little bit of acomplicated topic, but we're
going to give it a go and wehope you guys will tune in and
listen.

Josiah (01:05:53):
Praxis is recorded and produced at Crosspoint Community
Church.
You can find out more about theshow and our church at
crosspointwicom.
If you have any questions,comments or have any suggestions
for future topics, feel free tosend us an email.
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(01:06:13):
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