Cultivating a Culture of Humble Service

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What happens when you prioritize service, humility, and genuine love in your church community? Join us in this episode as we explore the transformative power of cultivating a Tove church culture, following Jesus' example from Mark 10. We'll illustrate how embodying goodness, kindness, and love can close the gap between the current state of your church and a healthier, more vibrant community.

We delve into the historical shifts in pastoral credibility, emphasizing the importance of character over celebrity. Drawing inspiration from figures like John the Baptist, we discuss the cultural pressures exacerbated by social media and the need for self-care to prevent burnout in service-oriented environments. Learn practical tips for maintaining sustainable and grace-filled motivations in your ministry, ensuring that your service remains genuine and impactful.

Serving with integrity and humility is a complex dance, especially in the age of instant gratification and social media fame. We discuss power imbalances and the significance of viewing those we serve as equals, sharing insights from mission trips and community engagements. Discover how to create a culture of service that values communal well-being over individual recognition, and how to instill these virtues right at home, paving the way for a life of humble service.

Episode Transcript

Katie (00:00):
Welcome to Praxis, a podcast where we explore how to
practice and embody the way ofJesus in our everyday lives.
Okay, let me start that overthe way of who.
Welcome to Praxis, a podcastwhere we explore how to practice
and embody the way of Jesus inour everyday lives.
Thanks so much for taking thetime to listen.
We're in a series right nowfocused on cultivating a healthy
church culture.

(00:20):
We've been saying that everychurch has a culture, whether
they realize it or not, and somechurch cultures are reasonably
healthy, while others are not,and, of course, no church is
perfect.
But part of the work that everychurch needs to do is to
intentionally work to close thegap that exists between being
healthy and wherever theycurrently are.
So in this series, that's whatwe're doing.

(00:41):
We're seeking to close the gap,and this involves not only
talking about the marks of anunhealthy church culture, but
also casting vision for how we,as the church, can embody a way
of life together that, while itmay not be perfect, is oriented
towards goodness and kindnessand love.
And today we want to discuss theimportance of prioritizing

(01:02):
service.
In Mark 10, jesus said to hisdisciples right after getting
into a dispute about who was thegreatest.
He says whoever wants to becomegreat among you must be your
servant, and whoever wants to befirst must be the slave of all.
For even the Son of man did notcome to be served, but to serve
and to give his life as aransom for many.

(01:22):
So today we want to talk abouthow tangible acts of loving
service in the way of Jesus,within and beyond the walls of
the church, is a key ingredientto cultivating communities of
Tov.
So here we go, let's get intoit.

Mac (01:49):
Well welcome everyone.
My name is Mac,

Josiah (01:51):
I'm Josiah

Katie (01:56):
and I'm Katie.

Mac (02:02):
So, Josiah, I think it's time to let our audience know
your little secret.

Josiah (02:04):
What's my secret?

Adam (02:04):
Yea h, it's time.

Katie (02:06):
It's time.
Well, I love the Olympics.

Mac (02:07):
He's so uncomfortable right now I know he's there's no idea
what's coming.
I love the Olympics.
Despite the hoopla and hypesurrounding the opening ceremony
, I was pretty glued to it.
Um, what I didn't realize untiljust a few weeks ago is that we
actually have a gold medalistsitting here with us right now.
Josiah, you've been holding outon us, so perhaps, without

(02:28):
being overly braggadocious,maybe you could share with our
listeners the gold medals youaccumulated in high school.

Josiah (02:42):
Oh, my goodness.
Well, they're not sports, so Idon't know if that would qualify
.
Are you talking about forensics?
Oh, yes, yeah, yeah.
Had a group of us in highschool that did a group
interpiece for each year.
We were in high school and wewon gold at state for three out
of those four years.

Mac (03:01):
I think what's disappointing that you shared
with our staff is that thefourth year, which was your year
to shine, you obtained a silvermedal rather than the gold.
Did you feel like robbed bythat?

Josiah (03:14):
Yeah, yeah, for sure it is a bad way to end our reign.

Mac (03:20):
Do you feel like it was skill or politics, like were
there other people?

Josiah (03:23):
who were sort of politics like were there other
people who are sort of well,when you're at state, um, your
score, uh, I believe it's out of25.
Um, you have to get a perfectscore to get gold, so you can't
have any marks off.
And she gave us one mark offfor something.
Okay, and group interpretationis like you just read a script
and you can't interact with eachother.

(03:45):
It's nothing but your voicestelling the story.
Yeah, and so at some point shethought we made a mistake.

Mac (03:54):
Did you have a wide range of voices, would you say?

Josiah (03:57):
Yeah, I mean I played a different.
It was like a differentcharacter.
Yeah.
And you take turns like beingthe narrator and then things
shift around but you end up,depending on what you're saying,
like the.
The one year we, uh, we wroteour own and uh, I was like a, a
sergeant with like a harsh voice.
Can you give us like a?

(04:18):
Sample I don't know.
I was not prepared for this.

Katie (04:24):
I have a question.

Josiah (04:24):
Yes.

Katie (04:25):
Is it a skill that you feel like still comes into play
today?

Josiah (04:29):
I enjoy it.
Yeah, I think so.
I like being expressive with myvoice if I need to.

Katie (04:34):
Yeah, I was going to say, you know, during worship some
Sunday you could certainly.
Well, I just imagine.

Josiah (04:39):
Pull out the drill, sergeant, I just imagine like.

Katie (04:45):
What is it like to be one of your kids during?

Mac (04:46):
story time before bed.
You must be giving them anA-plus performance a gold medal
performance.

Katie (04:51):
It would be a valuable skill for story time.

Josiah (04:53):
I do like doing that sometimes.
That's amazing.
Where do you display yourmedals now?
In your home?
Yeah, behind my computer screen, so that when I'm on a Zoom,
call everybody can see them.
That's the right move.
No, in fact I don't even knowwhere they are.

Mac (05:11):
Dude, you need to dig those out I do and you definitely
need to bring them into theoffice and maybe put them next
to the softball third placetrophy.
Well, speaking of gold medals,let's get into this podcast.
If you've been following along,you know we're in a series on

(05:31):
creating a healthy churchculture, which is something that
requires all of us.
Our culture is the sum total ofeveryone's participation, so
it's about how we all show upand do life together, and we've
been inviting you throughoutthis series to help us remove
some of the toxins in theAmerican church soil, some of
the things that are creatingtoxicity and unhealth, and we've

(05:53):
also been inviting you toproactively and intentionally
join us in putting positivenutrients into the soil, ones
that create communities of loveand goodness, that create
communities of love and goodness.
Today, we want to discussanother nutrient that we can
prioritize as a church community, and it's serving others.
We want to submit today thatTove churches are serving

(06:14):
churches.
They're comprised of people whoserve one another and the
communities of which they are apart.
So let me start here.
I want to start, actually, witha story in the Gospels.
In Mark 10, there's a story ofJames and John, two brothers who
are both disciples of Jesus,and they approach Jesus and ask

(06:35):
if they can sit on Jesus's rightand left hand in his kingdom,
which was basically those werethe two most important positions
, right?
So this is what they want.
They want to be consideredgreat, to be considered
important, to have the bestpositions, with the most power.
And, by the way, this is whatall the other disciples wanted
too, because when they hearabout this request, they get

(06:57):
really kind of frustrated withJames and John, because
ultimately, they want the samething to be great, to be
important, to have thosepositions of power, james and
John.
Because ultimately, they wantthe same thing to be great, to
be important, to have thosepositions of power.
So all the disciples want thesame thing, and Jesus uses this
as an opportunity to teach themabout greatness and power and
importance in the kingdom.
So here's what Jesus says.
He says to his disciples youknow that those who are regarded

(07:20):
as rulers of the Gentileslorded over them and their high
officials exercise authorityover them.
Not so with you.
Instead, whoever wants tobecome great among you must be
your servant, and whoever wantsto be first must be slave of all
, for even the Son of man didnot come to be served but to

(07:42):
serve and to give his life as aransom for many.
So maybe just a couplenotations.
Jesus points out that therulers of the Gentiles use power
over, they're lording theirpower and authority over other
people.
But Jesus says not so among you, that's not how it's supposed
to be among you all.

(08:02):
And then he flips the entirevalue system upside down.
He says whoever wants to begreat must become a servant,
whoever wants to be first mustbe last.
So Jesus is sort of flippingthe value system upside down.
It's not power over it's powerunder it's greatness through
service and self-sacrifice.
And then Jesus points tohimself as the ultimate example

(08:24):
of this.
The son of man did not come tobe served but to serve and to
give his life away.
And that's significant, becauseif anybody had, you know, the
right to sort of lord theirstatus over others, it would
have been Jesus, who is God inthe flesh.
But Jesus does the exactopposite he serves others and
gives his life away.
He doesn't prioritize a life ofupward mobility, of status and

(08:48):
power over other people, butactually the exact opposite.
He models a life of downwardmobility where he steadily and
repeatedly chooses to meet thoseat the bottom, where they are
in humble service and love.
So our contention today is thatTove churches do the same.
They are places where peoplelive out of other-centered,
self-sacrificial love, and ofcourse this starts with

(09:09):
leadership.
We've talked a lot about toneat the top, with leaders who
love and serve and give theirlives away, and then everyone is
invited to do the same, suchthat this defines how we relate
to one another as a communityand how we engage the world
around us.
We love and serve the world asthe hands and feet of Jesus.
So I realize that I've kind ofpresented sort of the conclusion

(09:30):
right up front at the top here,but it seems to me that the
same issue that Jesus addresseswith his disciples this desire
to be great and to have powerand status it's the same issue
or rub we're seeing in thechurch today, from both pastors
and maybe even entirecongregations.
So let's flesh this out a bit.

(09:51):
Do you guys see this dynamictoo?

Josiah (09:55):
Yeah, I don't think it's very difficult to go online and
find a bunch of celebritypastors.
Let's just say that off the bat.
In my opinion well, I wouldn'teven say in my opinion, I think
objectively it is an entirecategory of media influence of
being a celebrity pastor,someone who has great status,

(10:18):
someone who has a greatfollowing, either on Instagram,
tiktok, like X or whatever it is.
They have all this following,all these people who look up to
them and, as a result of that,this shroud gets created around
them where they become largerthan life.

(10:40):
If you think of other, just tryto.
If we're talking aboutcelebrity status, let's try to
attach it to someone who maybeisn't in the church.
Think of someone like TaylorSwift.
Just about everybody, unlessyou live under a rock, knows who
Taylor Swift is.
Tay-Tay Right.
So Taylor Swift is not a personanymore.
She's an icon.

Katie (11:01):
She's something bigger than just a person.

Josiah (11:05):
That same thing happens within churches, and the tension
is real.
In the book they talk about, heshows a picture of the spectrum
where on one side it is servingyourself and the other side is
serving others and the otherside is serving others, and the

(11:27):
tension that he's presenting isthe one that you were just
saying.
That happened with James andJohn that the desire to serve
yourself becomes a greater pullthan serving others.
This idea of serving others issomething that will pull us to
the other side of the spectrum.
Finding ways to serve others inan ordinary fashion that

(11:50):
doesn't just make yourself lookgood is this antidote to pulling
you away from serving yourselfin spaces where you do have
influence.
And I really like this quotefrom the book.
I think it kind of summarizes alittle bit of what you were
saying too, mac.
They say Jesus was completelyagainst the celebrity culture

(12:10):
that was quickly forming arounda few of his closest followers.
James and John in particular,were beginning to imagine
themselves as MVPs of theapostolic band, but Jesus reset
the bar for them.
The temptation here is obviousSelf-concern and self-care must
be balanced by an other'sorientation, or we will become

(12:32):
self-intoxicated celebrities inour own minds.
So there's this tension and ifwe're just honest, instead of
trying to villainize people whoare self-intoxicated, I think
that tension exists in all of us.
No matter what we're doing, thistemptation of wanting to be

(12:55):
recognized, wanting to feelimportant like you have a
significant role to play.
But I think that the soberingpart is, rather than looking at
the big, mega churches as theproblem which I'm sure mega,
many mega church pastors are arecelebrities in their own right,

(13:16):
um, many small church pastorsthink they're celebrities too.

Mac (13:21):
Yeah yeah, you don't have to have a church at 10,000 to
you know.
Have that self-serving mindset.

Josiah (13:30):
Yeah, yeah.
Another quote from the book isthat it's not about the size of
the church but the size of thepastor's ego.

Mac (13:38):
Well, and you know, there's this guy named Andrew Root and
he's a professor at Luther.
He's written a lot about beingthe church and pastoring in a
post-secular age and he talksabout how, like, where does the
credibility of a pastor comefrom?
And it's changed throughouthistory.
It's like in the medieval ages.
It was sort of like you are theones who oversaw the sacraments

(13:58):
and so, like, that carried.
That's what gave you authorityand credibility.
During the Reformation itshifted to education and
knowledge, because all of asudden you have pastors who are
studying in the originallanguages and they're the
experts of the scripture, and soone's authority and credibility

(14:20):
came from knowledge.
Then, in the 1950s, it'sshifted to sort of
institutionalism.
Right, it was embedded in theinstitution itself, but with the
church growth model, what'shappened is it's actually
shifted to social status andpopularity.

(14:42):
And I think what we're namingand have named really throughout
this podcast from day one, isthat no, no, no, like.
Our authority needs to actuallycome from our character.
Our credibility needs to be ourlikeness to Christ and Jesus
came to serve and to give hislife away and that then serves
as an antidote to the celebrityculture that maybe we all subtly

(15:04):
crave, which is why we need toactively resist.
It Like this is why John theBaptist is such a compelling
example.
Here's a guy who's not the guy.
He knows that he's pointing tothe guy, namely Jesus.
He recruits a bunch ofdisciples and then, when Jesus
shows up, his disciples startfollowing Jesus and he
encourages them to do so.

(15:25):
And names he must decrease.
You know, he must increase andI must decrease, right?
I mean?
That's a powerful mentalitythat I think we all need to
incorporate into our lives that,like Jesus, must increase and I
must decrease.

Katie (15:42):
Yeah, so I hear you saying it's not just pastors who
deal with this.
It's kind of something inherentin all of us.
We all have this desire to beknown, to be respected, to be
recognized.
But then you put that kind ofhuman default into the current
cultural context where everyonehas a platform and it's so easy
to create a following, and it'sthe temptation that I can post

(16:05):
something online becauseeveryone wants to know what I
think and what I believe andwhat my opinion is, and I can
get all these reactions and it'sjust like putting gas on a fire
and I think that culturalmoment just has to be recognized
.

Mac (16:17):
Yeah, I mean, I get.
This is not an exaggeration.
I get about two to three emailsa month from consulting groups,
some sort of church supportgroup, some entity that exists
to help your church or servepastors, basically going hey, we
can make your church grow andwe can make you popular, Reach
out to us.

Josiah (16:40):
It's a very interesting fusion that happens when you
look at the human tendency towant recognition and status and
to feel important, and then youfuse that with but I'm serving
God, and so I convince myselfthat I'm not promoting myself.

(17:02):
I'm really promoting God andI'm saying that you can't see
this, but I'm making quotationsthat I'm serving God by becoming
a celebrity, and I know that'snot like outwardly stated, but
that is what's happening.
You think that you're promotingGod and his kingdom by becoming

(17:23):
really popular and proppingyourself up as a status and an
example for all.

Mac (17:31):
Yeah, this is why Robert Mulholland Jr.
He's a professor, I think atAsbury, I can't remember where
he he lived out his tenure butum, he talks about the false
self.
Right, and how exactly whatwe're talking about.
Like our false self, we feedour ego.
And then he talks about thereligious false self and he says
this is just sober.
When I read it it was sosobering.

(17:52):
He said the only differencebetween the false self and the
religious false self is thatyou've brought God into it.
You're still feeding your falseself.
You're just doing it in thename of God.
Now.

Katie (18:01):
Funny.

Mac (18:02):
Yeah, so yeah, there's a lot to unpack here, but I guess
it's worth noting.
We're saying, hey, tovechurches are serving churches,
which automatically, you know,kind of shines a spotlight on
our own inner narcissism anddesire to be great and important
, and service then helps us.

(18:24):
It's an antidote to that,because serving isn't always
sexy, you know.

Katie (18:28):
Certainly not.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I think I mean, obviously,service is, I think, something
that anyone would hear and go,yeah, like serving other people
is really important.
We want that.
But there are some challenges,I think, some like realistic
obstacles that can get in theway of that, and I'm hoping we
can take a moment just to unpackwhat are those.

(18:48):
One I might submit to Stardustwould be the book names this as
self-care.
The book that we're readingthrough talks about how being
service-oriented is good andshould be pursued.
But some churches can get socommitted to serving that they
burn themselves out completelyand end up exhausted and then
sometimes just throw in thetowel altogether because they

(19:09):
haven't prioritized sort oftheir own wellbeing, good
rhythms of rest, whatever thatmay be.
And I say the saying that Ithink the term self-care is kind
of trendy right now, like wecould fill that in in all sorts
of like helpful or unhelpfulways.
So even saying self-care I'msure brings up some connotations
, but I think the basic idea isthat we just need to be

(19:29):
continually checking in withourselves to see am I feeling
burned out, exhausted?
Am I doing from this, from thisplace of feeling like any sort
of just anxiety or guilt orshame, or am I truly feeling
like, filled up, like yes?
This is how God has wired meand I'm responding to his grace
and to his work in my life byserving others.

Mac (19:51):
Yeah, no, I think that's a legitimate point.
I mean, if you're going toinvite people into service,
you've got to wrestle with thesustainability of it.
I mean, it's no secret.
I see a therapist and mytherapist has told me the three
top professions that compriseclients like these are the top
three that are coming to see herfor help are healthcare

(20:14):
professionals, teachers andpastors.
All of those have a servicecomponent to them.
It's hard.
It's hard and I feel it.
I mean I know most people don'tassociate me with kind of being
a people pleaser because I'mable to define myself and so on,
but man, I don't know a singlepastor that doesn't struggle

(20:39):
with that to some degree.
I mean, just recently I had acouple that I really like.
They got engaged and theyapproached me and said, hey,

(21:00):
would you be willing to do thewedding, would you officiate it?
And I said okay, yeah, when isit?
And the date they named I'mgetting.
So that night I have to do therehearsal.
Okay, there's no way I can dothat wedding.
But honestly in my mind I'mlike I don't want to let them
down.
Maybe I could squeeze it in,like maybe there's a way to like
finagle the rehearsal when I'mgone so that they know what
they're doing and I can do theother rehearsal and then sprint

(21:21):
over because I don't want to letthem down.
You know what I mean.
It's uncomfortable todisappoint people and yet if
we're going to be able to caretruly care for people of the
long run, we have to kind oflike increase our tolerance for
disappointing people, knowingthat we can't serve and meet
everyone's needs.

Katie (21:43):
Yeah, I do.
I see, yes, I see youprioritizing that and I wouldn't
say struggling with it, butacknowledging that tension, and
I think that having thoseboundaries and recognizing sort
of what you can do and what youcan't do will actually help us
have a more sustainable life ofservice over the longterm.

(22:04):
Right, if you didn't do that,you get burned out and then
you're no help to anyone anyways.

Mac (22:08):
Right, yeah, and with this couple.
I don't know if this is theright move or not, but I just
named it.
I really don't want todisappoint you, but I have.
This is what's going on thatweekend and I feel I feel bad
about it because I'd really liketo be there and now it's become
a joke.
They responded reallygraciously, but now it's just
become a funny thing because Iwas honest about it.

Josiah (22:31):
Yeah, I think that self-care gets these negative
connotations in certainChristian circles because it
does prioritize effectively.
It prioritizes yourself overothers.
Effectively, it prioritizesyourself over others.
But my point back to that wouldsay that I think that
Christlike response in servingis whatever you're doing towards

(22:55):
others, you're doing on purpose.
And if you're doing thingscompulsively because of this
drive to people please or thisdrive to say, oh, if I let them
down, then they're going tothink I'm not as good, right, so
we're being driven bycompulsively out of a false self
.
And if you don't take the timeto prioritize things, like you

(23:17):
were talking about rhythms ofwork and rest and having regular
moments where you're away withJesus, and you're doing things
that are recharging youauthentically recharging you,
not puffing you up You're goingto be able to respond to things
and do them on purpose, not havea full cup, and that is the way
we are designed to live.
Is every season going to beperfect with that?

(23:39):
No, there are plenty of seasonswhere you're like I got to get
through this.
But I think that whatever we'redoing for God, we should be
doing on purpose and notcompulsively driven by some
other sort of thing, andself-care is a way to ensure
that you're aware of what ishappening internally and you're

(23:59):
giving it authentically onpurpose, for the right reasons.

Mac (24:03):
Yeah, we should circle back to this, maybe do an entire
episode on self-care, because Ido think there's a lot to unpack
on.
I think some people use thelabel self-care to be
self-indulgent, you know, orselfish, and I don't think
that's what we're saying.
I think caring for yourself isreally about creating space so
that God can care for you, so hecan fill you up, so then you

(24:25):
can overflow and give yourselfaway again, and there's a rhythm
to that right, yeah, or you'refilled and then you empty
yourself.
You fill and then you emptyyourself, and I just think
there's a lot to unpack aboutwhat that actually looks like in
a way that's honoring to God,to yourself and to others.

Josiah (24:40):
Yeah, Anyone who's a parent, it wouldn't be very hard
to find times when you're likeyou have overspent yourself and
what happens?
You get crabby and resentful,and I'm like I am not being a
very peaceful presence in ourhome right now, like I need some
time.
So, yeah, we want to be able toshow up as our best.

Katie (25:00):
Josiah, when you said, for some reason, when you said I
just got to get through this,that song came into my mind and
I just can knock it out of myhead now.

Mac (25:12):
What song is it I got to?

Katie (25:12):
get through this.
It's like a really bad song.

Mac (25:13):
That line just repeats over and over Adam, anything Okay.

Katie (25:16):
Maybe we can find it and throw it into the podcast.

Mac (25:18):
You're going to have to do a better job singing it.

Katie (25:20):
Well, I'm not going to do that, I'll spare you all.
Maybe I'll find it and haveJosiah sing it.

Mac (25:25):
All right, interesting, okay.
So one temptation or problemchallenge when it comes to
building out a serving cultureis just how self-care intersects
with it.
We don't want to serveourselves to the point of
burning out, and then I can't dothis, I just need to hang on,
right, maybe?
Another temptation we alludedto this earlier was serving to

(25:48):
be noticed, you know when againwe're like serving, but in a way
that builds up our ego and sortof elevates our status.
We serve to be celebrated, weserve to sort of increase our
religious persona, to look goodor be admired.
And of course, this was a majorproblem for the religious

(26:09):
leaders in Jesus's day, and it'sone that he talked about and
specifically gave teachings toavoid that.
He's like hey, when you givewhich is something they did very
publicly, he said, don't letyour right hand know what your
left hand is doing.
In other words, give privately,to avoid that sort of giving to
be noticed.
Or hey, when you fast, don't doit in a way that's obvious so

(26:35):
that everybody knows about itand can see, oh, he's fasting,
right, making your piety known,but rather do it subtly so that
God can see it and be.
These were people who prayed onthe street corners so that
other people go wow, they're sospiritual, right?
Jesus says go into your prayercloset, where nobody can see you
, to kind of clarify yourmotivation of why you're praying

(26:57):
in the first place.
I don't know, do you guysnotice that too Like this kind
of way of serving in a waythat's really about
self-promotion.

Katie (27:09):
So I was watching a documentary.
I don't watch a lot of TV, butI was sick.
I think it was when I hadpneumonia a year or two ago.
I was watching the Harry andMeghan miniseries on Netflix.
And this is an example fromoutside the church, but I think
it illustrates what you'regetting at.
And this is an example fromoutside the church, but I think
it illustrates what you'regetting at.
Meghan Markle had become awareof a fire in London in like a

(27:29):
housing complex, and a wholebunch of people were displaced
and she got to know some of theI think it was women, I think it
was an all-women housingcomplex and she got to know some
of the residents and ended upshowing up at this community
kitchen that was feeding thesepeople while they were displaced
.
And so there's this wholesection of her like being at
this community kitchen that wasfeeding these people while they

(27:49):
were displaced, and and sothere's this whole section of
her like being at this communitykitchen and helping serve and
she's talking about theimportance of serving.
But it was just kind of ironic.
I'm like, well, you're serving,but with you're doing it with
this like barrage of newspapersand media and paparazzi yeah.
Yeah and okay, caveat.
I learned in the mini seriesthat I think Meghan Markle
actually does prioritize serviceand has done it quite a bit in
her life outside of thespotlight.
And she's the royal family, soof course they're going to

(28:10):
follow her.
It's not really her fault, butjust like the image of serving,
with all of that, I'm like okay,like can we talk about this for
a second?
Like you're serving almost tomarket, like you're marketing
the royal family through yourservice.

Mac (28:23):
Yeah.

Katie (28:24):
Which I guess there are worse things to market.
Yeah, but it just seems toundercut the point of serving.

Mac (28:29):
Yeah, like I'm going to vacuum the foyer as the lead
pastor, but could you guys takepictures while?
I do it and then like put it onsocial media so everybody can
see.

Katie (28:39):
Yeah.

Josiah (28:40):
Yeah, yeah, people, especially on social media, like
to.
I think they equate how hardthey hustle as an act of service
, how hard they hustle to do allthe things for the kingdom,
when a lot of it isself-promotion.

(29:01):
You know, like, how much theywork.
They're just constantly presenton your feeds and, honestly,
some of them I haven'tunfollowed simply because it
bothers me and I guess I justobserve.
I'm trying to observe, like I'mwondering, you know some of the

(29:21):
things they say or post.
I'm like I'm wondering theirmotivation.
But yeah, it's like there'sthis temptation to take anything
that I'm doing and finding away to help it increase my
status.

Mac (29:35):
Yeah, and of course that's the attitude that the Pharisee
had in the story that Jesus tolda little parable of the
Pharisee and the tax collectorin the temple.
What does he do?
I mean, his self-righteousnessis rooted in look how much I
fast each week and look at howmuch I tithe and give away Right
.
So and again, we're kind oftalking about pastors and you

(29:59):
know that seems to be all theexamples that are coming up, but
let's not forget that this canhappen just with regular,
everyday churchgoers as well.
I think we want to be criticalat the top because we want to
set the tone at the top right.

Katie (30:14):
I took a mission trip to Haiti shortly after the big
hurricane there in 2011, 2012.
The hurricane was in 2011.
I went in 2012.
And I remember we were workingand staying at like an orphanage
and I remember just lots ofpeople taking pictures with all
the kids, you know and andposting them and I think I took

(30:38):
one, or I think I took a coupletoo.
So I'm not, I'm not lookingdown on other people.
But no, what stuck out to me is,as we were traveling back,
there was a young woman aroundmy age who just made the comment
.
She's like I don't takepictures when I come on these
trips because these are kids,this is their life and I'm not
going to promote.
And I remember that stuck outto me and I hadn't really
thought about it before and allof a sudden it kind of opened my

(30:58):
eyes to just think to this ideaof serving and I don't think
the stuff is malicious right, Ireally enjoyed getting to know
these kids, I really enjoyed thework I was doing.
So there's nothing maliciousabout me wanting to promote
myself, but it just did open myeyes to how common and how I
guess, insidious it can be too.

Mac (31:17):
Yeah, yeah, sometimes we don't even have eyes to see it
because it's so commonplace.
All right, well, let'stransition.
We've talked about hey, we wantto be a serving community.
Here are a couple of things weneed to be aware of.
We need to be aware of servingto the point of burnout and how
to care for ourselves along theway.
We've talked about thistemptation of actually using our

(31:38):
service to increase our status.
Let's look at Jesus.
How do you guys see Jesusembodying a life of service if
we're to follow in his footsteps.
Life of service if we're tofollow in his footsteps.

Josiah (31:51):
Yeah well, first one I'd name is that he lived a life of
downward mobility, and that'sdefinitely what we mean by that
is, instead of trying to climb aladder and increase your status
, jesus continually laid thatdown and went below the status

(32:15):
in order to be more present tothe people that he was there to
care for.
You know, like all of us live ina society where climbing the
ladder and increasing yourstatus and getting further ahead
becomes the drive to doeverything, where it has
infected our church culture aswell.
Jesus demonstrated quite theopposite.
We see that he was born amongthe poor.

(32:37):
He had no status to begin with,spent most of his time around
people that would have not onlywere they not celebrities, they
probably would have decreasedhis social standing among the
people around him and he wascaring and serving others.
Caring for and serving othersin ways that weren't necessarily

(33:03):
making him popular, especiallyamong the people who had the
power to increase that status.
To increase that status and thepeople that had the status or
at least had cornered the marketon that, jesus had continual
challenge for them.

Mac (33:18):
Yeah, which also would have decreased his status.
Yeah, because most people aretrying to get into those circles
.
Jesus is challenging thosepeople who run in those circles.

Josiah (33:28):
Yeah, yeah, so Jesus lived his life circles.
Yeah, yeah, so the um Jesuslived his life.
Um, and when you, when you putthose lenses on, you can almost
sort of see that Jesus, uh,lived most of his life, not only
like just actively resistingthat and, um, making decisions
almost purposefully to decreasethat.

Mac (33:48):
Yeah, one, one example.
I mean there's lots of them,there's lots of people who have
followed in Jesus's footstepshere, but one example that I
think of is Henry Nouwen, andhe's actually the first person I
encountered to use that phrasedownward mobility, but he was,
you know, he had a reallyincredible career, teaching at

(34:09):
Yale and kind of like a risingstar in in theology and and gave
it all up to work and liveamong people who are
experiencing disabilities andthat's where he lived out the
rest of his life.
And it's just this verypowerful example of someone who
was on the path to stardom andintentionally, because of what

(34:34):
you're saying, chose to walkaway from all of that when he
didn't have to, and then, Ithink, picked a pretty humble
but more rewarding way to liveactually, which is to live among
the disabled, buildingreciprocal relationships.

Katie (34:49):
Which is mind blowing.
Yeah, like, can you actuallyimagine doing that?
Nobody would do that today.
I just feel like it's really toactually think about being on
this tenure track at Ivy Leagueschools, increasing prominence
status, and he had ideas thatI'm sure were worth sharing.
Right, like a lot of thesepastors who want a platform are

(35:12):
doing it arguably, for probablygood reasons, like they have
ideas and want to tell peopleabout God, whatever.
Those are all really goodthings, but to truly give that
up shows, I just think, a reallysincere commitment to actually
living out what we see Jesusdoing.
That's incredible to me.

Josiah (35:29):
Yeah.

Katie (35:30):
Yeah, so maybe so okay, I hear you saying Jesus loved
this life of downward mobility,something related to that.
I would say he he activelyresisted celebrity status, Like
when the celebrity status wasalmost just became part of his
ministry.
He pushed against it.
People did start following him.
We do see him starting to kindof draw these crowds and he did

(35:53):
things to push against that.
For example, he performs amiracle and then he tells people
don't tell anyone.
Like who would do that today?
What pastor would be likeperforming miracles?
If there was a pastor who wasdoing miracles in this country,
they would be telling everybodyabout it.
It would be all over the place.
It'd be plastered over socialmedia.
They would be creating kind ofa massive marketing campaign to

(36:15):
tell about it.
So I think that says a lot.
Jesus also said really hard butloving things that caused many
people to leave him.
If you notice how he speaks andhow he offers challenge, he
doesn't mince words.
He doesn't soften what he saysto make it more palatable for
people.
He speaks very directly andfrankly, often says things that

(36:38):
people don't like and we knowthis because they walk away.
Like if his ultimate goal wasto be a celebrity, he certainly
wouldn't have said a lot of thethings that he says.
And then, thirdly, Jesus oftensneaks away from the spotlight
to be alone with God.
After he feeds the 5,000, rightafter the crowds are kind of
getting large and he feeds them,he just like gracefully exits

(37:01):
stage left.
He's like see you guys, I needsome time to be alone with the
father.
And again, just comparing thatto modern and it's not just like
pastors, other people, me, I'msomeone who spends a decent
amount of time on the stage Ican't imagine being like okay,
today's the day when oursanctuary is as full as it's
ever been, Like this is themoment, this is our big
opportunity to like entertainpeople or like give them, you

(37:22):
know, do something to make themwant to come back, or give a lot
of money or whatever.
I can't imagine, at that verymoment, being like actually, I'm
just going to go in the chapel.

Mac (37:31):
Go to the prayer trails.

Katie (37:33):
I'm going to go.
I'm going to be back here andjust pray, see you guys, yeah
see ya, I can't imagine that.
So I think to think about thisin our context is really
convicting for me.
To just look at Jesus' exampleand go.
You know, it certainly goesagainst every fiber in my being,
especially in the churchcontext.

Mac (37:52):
Yeah, yeah, I mean in the chapter Scott and Laura's book
Church Called Tov they use thatphrase.
Jesus was the anti-celebrity.
You know, he's like theanti-celebrity celebrity and in
many respects he would have beenconsidered sort of a pastoral
failure in his time.
Right, because at one point hefeeds 5,000 people but spends

(38:14):
most of his time investing in 12, and within that three and
after he goes to the cross andis raised from the dead, he has
120.
You know, like 120.

Katie (38:29):
That's not a lot of people, right you?

Mac (38:30):
know like 120.
It's not a lot of people, Right?

Katie (38:40):
So I think it's worth considering if Jesus were here
today he would be consideredprobably a pastoral, a subpar
pastor.
Isn't that ironic?

Mac (38:44):
Yeah.

Katie (38:44):
Just to share another quick quote from the book.
They say celebrities want gloryand fame.
Jesus wants followers who denyglory and fame to pursue a life
of service.
Pastors are not celebrities andchurches are not celebrity
churches.
Pastors, leaders and churchesare to be known for what their
Lord and Savior is known forSacrifice for the sake of others

(39:05):
, service servanthood.

Mac (39:08):
Yeah, so we've talked about how did Jesus embody this
downward mobility, activelyresisting the celebrity status,
even when people are trying topush him towards that.
And then the most obviousexample is just that Jesus goes
to the cross I mean, this iswhat he points to in that moment
with the disciples, he saideven the son of man did not come

(39:29):
to be served but to serve andto give his life away.
There's that example in John 13, where they're celebrating
Passover and during the meal hegets up and removes his outer
garment, fills a basin withwater and begins to wash his
disciples feet, which, of course, contextually in John's gospel,
is foreshadowing the cross whenJesus will be stripped of his
clothes and crucified for thecleansing of our sin.

(39:50):
Right, it's foreshadowing thecross when Jesus will be
stripped of his clothes andcrucified for the cleansing of
our sin.
Right, it's foreshadowing thatmoment.
But what's interesting at theend of that foot washing moment
is that Jesus actually tells usthat we're supposed to do the
same thing.
He says when.
It says when he had finishedwashing their feet, he put on
his clothes and returned to hisplace.
Do you understand what I'vedone for you?
He says you call me teacher andLord, and rightly so, for that

(40:12):
is what I am.
Now that I, your Lord andteacher, have washed your feet,
you also should wash oneanother's feet.
I have set an example that youshould do as I have done for you
.
Very truly, I tell you, noservant is greater than his
master, nor is a messengergreater than the one who sent
him.
So you know, it's just.

(40:34):
Jesus is explicitly connectingthe dots for us that like hey,
this is how I live, and nowyou're supposed to do the same.

Josiah (40:42):
Do you know I just had a moment when you were reading
that you notice that Jesus,leveraged in that phrase, he's
like you call me Lord, andrightly so.
So with that influence that Ihave over you, like I'm
acknowledging it I'm going touse that to then tell you to go

(41:04):
serve people.
He's recognizing and I wasthinking of this earlier too you
can't necessarily help theinfluence you have.
Like, if you have influence, alot of times it's given to you
or as a part of your position,and a lot of this is what we're
talking about.
It's like because you're in aleadership position and you have

(41:26):
influence.
All of this is like beingresponsible with it.
And even Jesus is recognizingyou're calling me Lord and
teacher, that I am to you.
So I'm going to leverage thatinfluence I have in a way that's
going to like tell you that ifyou think of me this way, then
you need to go serve others inthe same way I've served you.

Mac (41:49):
I just think that's really interesting.
Yeah, there's definitely a Ilike what you said.
You can't control the influenceyou have, I mean.
But there's a difference, andwe talked about this many
episodes ago, where we talkedabout people who have influence
because of who they are and whatthey've done.
I think of like a EugenePeterson who resisted a lot of
this but out of his faithfulpastoring for decades, you know,

(42:13):
influenced a lot of people, buthe resisted climbing into the
spotlight for that purpose,right, like that wasn't his
motivation, right.
So that's very different thanhaving influence because of who
you are and what you're doingand other people seeing it and
being compelled by it isdifferent than intentionally
seeking it out as an end in andof itself.

(42:34):
Yes, right.

Josiah (42:35):
Yes, and I would add that there's a responsibility
that comes along with it, and ifyou don't recognize it, you're
going to do more damage thanjust in your own ego and in your
own church.

Mac (42:48):
All right.
So we've talked about how Jesusmodeled us a little bit
downward mobility, resistingstatus, going to the cross.
Let's talk about us as acommunity for a bit.
How can we follow Jesus'sexample and embody this together
?
What comes to your mind?

Katie (43:05):
I think one thing that Jesus often encourages us to do
is to look at our hearts right.
Like there are all sorts ofexamples where people try to do
what they think God would wantthem to do, but it's more like
they're focused on the externalbehavior, when the heart posture
underneath it is not aligned.
And Jesus we see Jesus kind ofcall us out for that and go wait

(43:26):
a second.
Like where's your heart in this?
Like are you doing this for theright reasons?
And I think Philippians 2 givesus a good example of how Jesus
did this.
Like Jesus was literally God inthe flesh and yet he made
himself a servant.
It says in your relationshipswith one another, have the same
mindset as Christ Jesus who,being in very nature God, did

(43:49):
not consider equality with Godsomething to be used in his own
advantage.
Rather, he made himself nothingby taking on the very nature of
a servant being made in humanlikeness.
So I think it just requires usto look at when I'm serving,
kind of what are my motives?
What am I hoping to get out ofit?
Am I using this to kind of propmyself up, prop my church up,

(44:12):
or am I just doing it to followJesus's example, and do what I
think he has called me to do.
There's a story that I want toshare here that popped up as I
was preparing for this.
This morning, when we lived inAlex and I lived in Madison
before we had kids we went toserve at I guess you would call
it like a soup kitchen.

(44:33):
It was a kitchen in an areathat had a big homeless
population and you would bringfood, you would sign up for a
day, you'd bring food, you'dprepare the food and then you
would share a meal with thosewho came to eat.
So it was a neat model.
But we're there, we're kind ofin the kitchen, and I referred
to what we were doing as serving, like I said something like oh
so how long have you beenserving here, or something like

(44:55):
that, and the guy who was incharge of it like grabbed onto
me not physically grabbed ontome, like he looked at me very
directly and then said we don'tuse the term serving here.
And then he proceeded to tellme why what they don't call what
they're doing serving.
They call it like sharing ameal, because he felt like there
was some connotation ofsuperiority with the term

(45:16):
serving.
But when I say, he like clung onto me, he followed me around
the entire night and continuedto lecture me on why I shouldn't
use the term serving.
So, granted, I never went backto that place because that sort
of felt like going overboard,like it didn't.
It made feel kind of small andI just didn't feel like I needed
to get lectured the entirenight.
But my point is it did make methink.

(45:38):
It did make me think about yeah, when we're serving, are we
doing it with this heart postureof superiority?
I think it can be really subtleand we can not even be aware of
it but are we coming at it withthis sense of I'm sort of
giving something to this person?
Or are we seeing the peoplethat we're serving as truly

(45:59):
equal in dignity and worth andmade in the image of God as
ourselves?

Mac (46:05):
Absolutely.
I mean there's a powerimbalance when someone is giving
and the other person isreceiving, and so if you're
standing in line at a grocerystore and you realize you've
come up short, you don't haveenough money to pay, and someone
behind you is like, oh, I'llcover it for you, that feels the

(46:26):
person offering may feel greatabout themselves, but you feel
like a charity case.
It's somewhat humiliating.
I have a neighbor who everytime we've done something for
them, she feels obligated to dosomething in response.
Why?
Because she's feeling thatpower imbalance and so part of
our, I think, moving towardspeople like my neighbors, I've
learned it's better for me toreceive from them first than to

(46:49):
give to them.
It actually creates space thatotherwise wouldn't exist.
Oh interesting, like when I go,hey, I don't have this tool, do
you have this?
They feel awesome about that,and then it creates a different
kind of a relationship than ifI'm like kind of treating them
as a charity case.
Let me help you, let meresource you.

Katie (47:10):
Yeah, there is the example in the book of who was
it who grew up poor andremembers a church always
bringing like food to their homeand every time they would bring
them, like, I think, aChristmas basket, they would try
to share the gospel and he justremembers being like the least
open to the churches that werebringing the gifts.

(47:30):
Yeah, because he felt like acharity case.

Mac (47:32):
Right, right.
This is why I think, part ofthe reason why Jesus, when he
sends out the 70 to in Luke,Luke's gospel, he sends them out
empty handed and they have togo, rely on the very, the
hospitality of those they'retrying to reach right, Like he
sends them out.
Don't bring a bag, a purse, asandal, like.

(47:52):
Don't do that.
Rather, when you enter a house,say all you're offering is
peace.
It's the only thing you'rebringing with you is a posture
of peace.
So there's a lot to unpack.
I think you're right.
We need to tend to our hearts.
Katie, I also would probablyjust name how countercultural
this is especially for usAmericans.

(48:12):
I mean, we're living in aculture that, for a couple
hundred years, has placed apremium on individual rights and
liberties.
Let's just acknowledge that,and it's not entirely a bad
thing.
The founding of our countrytook place against the backdrop
of a monarchy where individualrights and liberties were being

(48:36):
denied, and so to have thependulum swing and go no, no, no
, we're going to place a premiumon individual rights and
liberties was a huge, giant stepin the right direction,
absolutely.
However, when you're living ina culture that's all about your
individual rights and liberties,it gives a lot of permission

(48:56):
for people to be selfish andonly prioritize themselves, and
this can create a conflict whenpeople's rights and liberties
are in tension.
For instance, we had no ideahow to navigate the pandemic as
a culture.
Why?
Because any uniform policywould have violated someone's

(49:18):
rights, right, and so if we shutdown, you're violating
someone's rights where theydon't want to shut down, right.
If you mandate a mask orwhatever, no matter what move
you made, someone is going.
Now, that's infringing uponwhat I want, right.
So what I'm saying is is that,like perhaps it was a little bit

(49:42):
startling to me during thatseason was just how few people I
encountered were relating tothat season, with Philippians 2
in mind, which was to go okay,jesus calls us to have his same
attitude in mind, which is tonot just look out for our own
interests but also the interestsof other people.
And I'm not saying that, sayingokay, so that means we wear

(50:06):
masks and shut down or whatever,like I'm not saying that.
I'm just saying like, if that'sour posture, that changes the
conversation Right.

Katie (50:13):
Yeah, I think that's a good example.

Josiah (50:18):
Yeah, yeah.
Another way we can embody thisas a community is to celebrate
service instead of thecelebrities.
You know we have visionstatements around.
You know we want we have visionstatements around.
Uh, you know we want, we, wewant to go beyond attendance.
We want everyone who um callscross point home to uh be using

(50:40):
their gifts and investing intothe community.
Um, but there's a bigger.
It's more than just gettingstuff done, like.
The reason why we are passionateabout that is because we want
to find a way to celebrate theway people are investing and
serving one another, and notjust to reach the end goal of

(51:01):
our church's personal mission.
This is about creating a culturein which it becomes normal to
give of yourself and serve forthe better of the community.
Yeah, and I think that one ofthe things that came to my mind
was I think that it would beimportant for churches to find

(51:23):
ways to publicly honor peoplewho aren't staff members.
So there'd be a very tangibleway and same thing for us, like
if the people you'rehighlighting and the people who
are always front and center arethe staff members find ways to
publicly honor people who arenot, I think there'd be a good

(51:43):
little antidote to say no, wedon't.
It's easy to take the staffmembers and the pastoral staff.
You know, obviously they dogive a and it's fine to honor
them, but when we're talkingabout publicly, it speaks a lot
to say I'm going to honor thisperson instead.
Finding ways to do that wouldbe really important and honoring

(52:05):
service over the big flashystuff.

Mac (52:09):
Well, I see you doing that, Josiah.
You've been the one to kind oftake the lead on having a
banquet for those who haveserved or are serving in our
community, and that I love thatnight the times we've done it,
because some of the people whoserve in the most subtle ways,
you know, it's just so fun tocheer them on and thank them for

(52:31):
all the ways they serve thatnobody even knows about.
Yeah, it's beautiful.

Josiah (52:35):
Yeah, and it's also, you know, it's so meaningful when
you start doing it because yourealize that so many of these
people they don't actually wantto be honored and thanked
because they're just used toserving in the background, and
there's something very uh, it'svery meaningful and inspiring to
and it's fun to say like no,we're going to do it anyway.

(52:58):
Um, and the less they want it,the more you want to do it for
them.
Um, so yeah, it does create somereally beautiful moments.
That that would be a way thatyou can embody it as a church is
finding ways to highlight thatand and you know, especially as
a church staff find ways toserve the people who are

(53:19):
volunteering.
Yeah, yeah.

Mac (53:21):
And then finally, I might just say we just need to learn
to live humbly.
You know, I mean, if we allhave egos and there's this
desire to feel great, be great,look great, all that stuff we
just need to normalize.
That's the thing.
We need to actively resist thatand just learn how to embrace
humility.
And of course, it starts at thetop with leaders.
Leaders need to serve otherpeople.

(53:41):
They can't just be in thespotlight all the time.
You know, the more a pastoracts like a celebrity, the less
time they'll actually spendserving other people.
I'm really proud of ourleadership team.
They're all in positions ofleadership, but they all, I
believe, serve in our kids'ministry, which oftentimes
people don't want to do becauseit can be hard work.

(54:06):
We've talked a lot about thisone, but pastors need to learn
how to share the spotlight.
They shouldn't be on the stageevery weekend in bright lights.
They need to learn how to sharethe microphone and that
spotlight with other people.
They need to develop thediscipline of losing arguments.
There's this famous story ofDallas Willard, who was in a
debate and his opponent madesome statements that he could

(54:30):
have easily crushed, and hedidn't respond to it.
And afterwards, someone whoknew him well approached him and
said well, why didn't you likeyou could have crushed that
argument?
And he responded I'mprioritizing the spiritual
practice of not needing the lastword.
And I just thought, huh, likethat's an intentional practice.

(54:50):
That's an intentional practiceof like, embracing humility and
even appearing like you didn'thave a response, or you know
what I mean?

Katie (54:58):
Yeah, they don't teach you that in debate class.

Mac (55:00):
Yeah, what does it look like in everyday conversations
to practice, prioritize thespiritual practice of not
needing the last word.
I think there's opportunity toembrace humility by just
admitting when you make amistake or mess up, being
transparent about that, and thenthat's leaders, but this
includes all of us.
I mean, if you're listening tothis, spend time in Philippians

(55:22):
2.
Memorize that passage Genuinely.
Consider the needs of otherpeople.
Find ways to put other people'sinterests before your own.
Find ways to serve, to getplugged in, be willing to be
wrong, admit mistakes.
Don't insist on having to haveit your way.
When you see a need, jump inand lend a helping hand.
There's all kinds of ways whereyou can just every single day,

(55:44):
um, choose the humble, thehumble path, the humble route.

Katie (55:50):
Yeah, that's really good stuff.
I love that story about Dallas.
I could not see myself doingthat.

Josiah (55:56):
It is so difficult.
I I have I have learned topractice it more and I have
found that the especially withkids, when you're getting heated
, the tendency is to want tolike like, get big, get big, get
the last word in, get them tostop, stop the argument.
And I found that there is a.

(56:16):
There's a a leveling thathappens, that you can connect
when you're not always doingthat and you're willing to ask
more questions and not feel likeyou have to win it.

Mac (56:26):
Totally Just this past week it was a week ago, I think a
little over a week ago was thedebate between Trump and Harris
and we were out of town Josieand I were out of town for it,
but my boys watched it with myparents.
And so this past weekend myoldest son, tig, was kind of
like sharing his opinions andwas very kind of like adamant

(56:52):
and kind of forceful about whathe thought, and I, as he was
talking about, of course, hadall kinds of thoughts that would
like complexify these mattersfor him, but I just didn't say
anything.
I just thought, hey, here's anopportunity where he's defining
himself, that's wonderful.
And then the next day, when Iwas driving to school, I said
hey, do you remember when wewere talking about the debate?

(57:15):
And he said yeah.
And I said man, I reallyappreciate you sharing what you
thought, and those issues areway more complex than I think
some of your comments that yourealize.
So I kind of let there's moreto this.
But what I care about most isthat you and I can just talk
about it, and that was a win forme because, like internally, I

(57:37):
want to kind of like pounce onthose moments and be like no,
that's why you know what.
I mean we all feel that, so thatwas a win for me.

Katie (57:46):
Yeah, okay, we've talked a lot.
Let's move into some praxises.

Mac (57:52):
It's praxis time.

Katie (57:54):
Praxises, praxises Praxis bad gas, All right.
What would you guys say?
Are some concrete?

Josiah (58:07):
if someone's listening to this like, what are some
concrete practices they can putinto place to prioritize a life
of service?
Yeah Well, just start in yourown home.
Start by doing an audit of yourown circles.
It could start by justexamining and being willing to
name, like, what are some of theways that I've prioritized

(58:28):
serving myself over servingothers?
You know, obviously I give theexample of parenting a lot.
Maybe you're not, but all of usexist in circles where we have
influence or are beinginfluenced by others, and I
think that, being able to looksoberly at what is actually
happening, we may find that inour homes, maybe we're embracing
a celebrity status.

(58:49):
I mean maybe you wouldn't nameit as that, but Make me a
sandwich.
Yeah, Maybe you don't realizehow much your influence.
You're leveraging it withoutrealizing it.
And what would it look like tothen leverage that influence to
serve your family instead ofbeing served?

Mac (59:11):
I heard this statement the other day and it's been
challenging me.
The comment was every minute isan opportunity to grow in love.
And I've been wrestling withthat because I'm now realizing
how many minutes I waste when Icould be loving.
So, for instance, when I'mmaking my coffee in the morning,
there's a couple minutes therewhen, like the water is heating

(59:35):
up, I'm waiting for it to reachtemperature, and I look over and
like there's the sink and it'sgot some dishes in it, you know.
And so I've had this.
I'm like there's the sink andit's got some dishes in it, and
so I've had this.
I'm trying to develop this newmindset.
When I see the need in my houseto go, if I don't do it,
someone else is gonna have to,and it's usually Josie right,
Because we're the adults and sotaking advantage of those

(59:57):
opportunities, when I see a needto step into it and I'm
realizing there's a growth forme there when I see the need,
there's often some internalresistance.

Josiah (01:00:10):
It's the last thing I want to do.

Katie (01:00:12):
I hate quotes like that.
I just hate it, I know Wellit's convicting Too much
pressure.

Josiah (01:00:17):
Yes it's convicting.
Yeah, I've said I have beensaying things very recently,
it's kind of been on repeat inour home is teaching kids to
embrace the responsibility ofdoing their part to make our
home a nice place to live foreverybody is trying to, instead

(01:00:38):
of saying, you know, do yourchores.
Or try to power up and makethem do something.
For me it's hey, all of us playa part here and I'll ask them
the question.
I was like so hey, your choreis the dishes.
I don't want to do the dishes.
Okay.
I was like okay and like it'snot fair.
You know I love those types ofstatements.
It's not fair?

Katie (01:00:56):
I it's not fair.
I shouldn't have to do them.

Josiah (01:00:59):
I just ask, like, so who would it be more fair to have
them do them?
Like, in your mind, is it morefair that we have to do it, as
the parents, you know, and it'slike, oh, like I'm trying to
shape that Of course I'm willingto serve and you know it is
very disproportionate foranybody who's been a parent of

(01:01:19):
how much you're serving comparedto what the kids do.
But, yeah, trying to create themindset that hey, if I'm not
doing it, it means somebody elseis doing it.
And that's just one way that inyour home you can inspire like,
hey, to serve others, to dothings, even if I don't want to
do it for myself, I'm willing todo it because I don't want to
put it on to someone else, forsure, start at home.

Mac (01:01:40):
That's the point.

Katie (01:01:41):
There are plenty of opportunities Every single day.

Mac (01:01:48):
Don't build a platform outside of the home where you're
applauded and praised, and notserve humbly at home.

Katie (01:01:52):
Yeah, I actually think this practice is really
important Because I think I betso many people, and myself
included, we've been listeningto this think about the service
project that takes a whole dayor like kind of these outside
them.
But I think you're right, Likethe home just has so many
opportunities and the ordinarymoments to actually live this
out.

Mac (01:02:09):
Yeah, I mean, maybe that's the greatest audit you can do to
figure out like your baselineof humility and service is like.
What does it look like at home?

Josiah (01:02:17):
Yeah, yeah, it works in so many levels.
I don't think there's any, anyarea in which God is asking us
to increase our capacity.
That doesn't.
That wouldn't include or evenfurther start with what it's
happening in our own home andthis is for your good.

Mac (01:02:38):
If you become a servant at home and grow, every minute is
an opportunity to grow in loveand you actually start living
into that independence on thespirit, it will bless your
family right Then moving out.
So if it starts at home, maybea second thing I would say is
just be a blessing to thosearound you.
I shared a little bit about ourneighborhood.

(01:02:59):
For a few years Josie and I leda kingdom community that
centered on blessing ourneighbors.
We gathered about I don't knowmaybe 10 families who all live
within like a half mile of us,and it started with us just
getting to know our neighbors'names and then kind of going a
step further and man, how muchmomentum.

(01:03:19):
I remember one week theassignment was figure out a way
to bless a neighbor and when wegot back together everybody had
a fun story to share like abouthow meaningful and impactful it
all went well, like it went well.
So if you just zoom out and go,okay, what does it look like to
humbly serve the communities orspaces I'm in, whether it's the

(01:03:40):
people on your street or maybein your workplace, coworkers
like you just start buildingthat out.
There's lots of opportunitiesto humbly serve the people
around us.

Katie (01:03:52):
Yeah, and just to make that again, kind of build that
into the ordinary of life.

Mac (01:03:56):
For sure, yeah, for sure.

Katie (01:03:57):
Yeah, a third one would just be to get plugged in and
serve, Like, just do it.
I think a church is a greatplace.
It's certainly not the onlyplace, but it is a great place.
I know at Crosspoint we havetons of opportunities that you
can come and serve, and I know achallenge for a lot of people
is just time, like myselfincluded.
It's like okay, great, Well,I'm busy, and especially if you

(01:04:26):
have young kids, like this canbe a real challenge with young
kids.
But there are ways.
You know there are ways.
Alex and I got a sitter oneSaturday of the summer and went
and did a day with bridgebuilders and it was really
awesome.
I know the women's ministryhere took a Saturday and went to
clean apartments at Hope Streetin Milwaukee and they included
kids.
That might be hard with, like anewborn, but they, you know they
have little tasks that kidscould do, like folding or
putting things away.
So I would just say, you know,we always say the church is the

(01:04:49):
local expression of God'skingdom, and I think that's
really true.
Like it's not.
It's not just a place to comesign up for service projects,
but it's rather it's about beinga family where we can live out
these teachings together as away of life.
So if you want to prioritizeservice, find a way to serve.

Mac (01:05:07):
Yeah, and this is going to require you to get outside
yourself.
We live in a very consumeristicculture that has infiltrated
the church.
So many people orient a churchof what is this church going to
do for me?
I'm not saying that you shouldcompletely ignore that.
There is a sense in which thechurch or community you're a
part of should be filling you upand feeding.
You Got that, but I've got thistheory I've been working on when

(01:05:30):
it comes to spiritual formation, and what I've noticed is is
that when people only orient toa church or church community
about what they're receiving andhow they're being filled up, or
church community about whatthey're receiving and how
they're being filled up, theyvery quickly reach a plateau
where they stop growing, andI've noticed that the people who
then go beyond that plateau iswhen they start giving
themselves away.

(01:05:51):
I honestly believe that I thinkthat there's only so far you're
gonna go in your spiritualjourney, so long as your primary
focus is on what you'rereceiving or consuming, and the
next level of your spiritualgrowth is very much contingent
upon learning to give your lifeaway.

Josiah (01:06:07):
Yeah, which is going to involve being uncomfortable.

Mac (01:06:11):
Yep and embracing humility.
Yeah.
And self-sacrifice, andtangible acts of service and
love right.

Josiah (01:06:20):
Yeah, and normalizing the resistance that you're going
to feel when that happens, Likeyour self-preservation
qualities inside are going to betelling you to not go outside
your comfort zone, to not trysomething new, to not extend
yourself in this way.
So normalize that that's goingto be attention and recognize
that that, with discernment, isgoing to be an opportunity to

(01:06:41):
grow and you'll increase yourcapacity and increase your
ability to love and decreasehopefully decrease the tendency
to want to serve yourselfinstead of others.

Mac (01:06:56):
All right.
Well, let's land this plane.
We talked about the importanceof serving.
Becoming a Tove church involvesintentionally moving towards
actual concrete service in lovetowards other people and of
course this crashes into our egoand our own need to feel

(01:07:17):
significant and powerful andlike we matter.
But resisting that is part offollowing in the way of Jesus.

Josiah (01:07:25):
Well, thanks for joining us today.
We hope you enjoyed today'sepisode.
Next time we will be concludingthis series on church culture
correct.

Katie (01:07:35):
Yeah, okay, yeah.

Mac (01:07:37):
I'm already lamenting the end of this series because I've
had so much fun with it.

Josiah (01:07:41):
Yeah, it's been good, so we'll be concluding this series
on church culture by focusingon the culmination of all of
these Tov qualities, which isChristlikeness.
See you next time.

Adam (01:07:55):
Praxis is recorded and produced at Crosspoint Community
Church.
You can find out more about theshow and our church at
crosspointwicom.
If you have any questions,comments or have any suggestions
for future topics, feel free tosend us an email.
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