Embodying Justice

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What does it mean to truly embody justice in our daily lives and church communities? Inspired by the wisdom of Micah 6:8, we embark on an exploration of how justice can transform church culture into a space radiating goodness, kindness, and love. We begin with some personal updates, sharing the joy of summer's end and the excitement of new school routines, and we celebrate a significant milestone in Josiah's life—his recent marriage!

Anchored in the insightful book, "Church Called Tov", we unravel the complexities of biblical justice beyond political lenses. We explore how justice is central to faith and relationships, drawing on the teachings of Jesus and theologians like Miroslav Volf. Through Jesus' prophetic actions and teachings, we reveal the integral role of justice in embodying God's heart and creating a loving community. This episode underscores the significance of living justly, not just as an abstract concept, but as a tangible practice that shapes our interactions and the church's health.

We're not just talking theory; we highlight real-world examples of addressing and recognizing injustice within and beyond church walls. Through powerful stories of advocacy and the necessity of empathy, we discuss the importance of transparency and proactive measures to tackle wrongs. Our aim is to inspire listeners to build relationships and cultivate a church culture that mirrors God’s justice, love, and empathy. Tune in for a compelling discussion that challenges each of us to live out justice authentically in our communities.

Episode Transcript

Mac (00:02):
Welcome to Praxis, a podcast where we explore how to
practice and embody the way ofJesus in our everyday lives.
Thanks so much for taking thetime to listen.
We're in a series right nowfocused on cultivating a healthy
church culture.
Every church has a culture,whether they realize it or not,
and some cultures are reasonablyhealthy, while others clearly
are not.

(00:22):
And, of course, no church isperfect.
But part of the work everychurch needs to engage is to
intentionally work to closewhatever gap exists between
being healthy and where theycurrently are.
So in this series, that's whatwe're trying to do.
We're seeking to close the gap,and this involves not only
talking about the marks of anunhealthy church culture, but
casting vision for how we, asthe church, can embody a way of

(00:44):
life together that, while it maynot be perfect, is oriented
toward goodness and kindness andlove.
So you know, we've namedseveral of the major toxins in
the American church soil andwe're now discussing some of the
healthy nutrients we can putinto the soil to help create a
healthy church culture.
And today we want to discuss theimportance of doing justice.

(01:07):
Micah 6.8 says he has shown youwhat is good.
The word there is tov.
He has shown you what is tov.
What does the Lord require ofyou?
To act justly and to love mercyand to walk humbly with your
God.
So, tov, churches are justchurches.
Today, we want to talk aboutjustice what it is and isn't,

(01:29):
how Jesus practiced it and howwe can do the same.
So here we go.

Josiah (01:46):
Welcome everybody.
I'm Josiah and I'm Mac.

Katie (01:49):
And I'm Katie.

Josiah (01:50):
Thanks for tuning in.
Hey guys, it is August, it is,and that means that we are
winding down with our days leftof summer.

Katie (02:07):
I'd love to hear does that excite you or does that
make you sad?

Josiah (02:09):
I'm not willing to admit that yet.

Katie (02:09):
That it's done, because I feel like I have a plan to
squeeze all of summer into thenext two weeks.
Okay.

Josiah (02:13):
So we know how you feel.

Katie (02:18):
There's something nice about getting into a school
routine and all that, but I likethe freedom of summer and the
sunshine and all the activity,school routine and all that.

Mac (02:25):
But I like the freedom of summer and the sunshine and all
the activity.
Well, I'm excited for summer towrap up and transition into the
rhythm of the school year.
We had really good rhythms forour kids, like things for them
to do in June and July and thenthose sort of phased out, and so
August tends to be a less like.
There's just less structure,which means more boredom and so

(02:45):
on.
So, in particular, our youngesthe just thrives with, like the
structure.
So, yeah, so I'm excited.
I'm excited for summer to wrapup, but not necessarily like the
weather to change.
This is fun.

Josiah (03:01):
Yeah, wisconsin, you can't beat it.

Mac (03:03):
You can't beat Wisconsin summers.
I just think they're fantastic,yeah, yeah, wisconsin, you
can't beat it.
You can't beat Wisconsinsummers.
I just think they're fantastic,yeah.

Josiah (03:07):
A little humid, but yeah , I'm definitely ready.
I think the school year.
I wish they'd break up summerbreak in two different spots.
I feel like it's too long.
Interesting thought.
Well, because if you thinkabout it as if you're a parent
and you work like you establishthe rhythm of being able to work

(03:29):
and your kids go to school, andfor three months out of the
year you have to completelydisrupt that rhythm and just be
nice if it was broken up insmaller sections, because it
just feels like life is going toget back to normal in a few
weeks, yeah, and you spend threemonths in not normal trying to
survive, um and, and even thekids are antsy, like all.

(03:53):
The kids are thinking about aschool and back to school,
shopping and what they're goingto wear to school.

Mac (03:59):
Speaking of, being antsy, um, I'm antsy to say something
to you while I'm in front of ourlisteners.
Okay, um, congratulations, oh,congratulations, josiah.
So for our listeners, josiahgot married just a few weeks ago
.
I'm kind of getting blinded bythe ring on your.
It's just so shiny, I can't seeum.

Josiah (04:20):
So, yeah, I'm excited for you, man, congratulations,
thank you it was wonderful andwe eloped sort of it wasn't a
last-minute decision.

Katie (04:29):
A planned elope.

Josiah (04:30):
Yes, yeah, we decided to fly to Colorado and go get
married on the side of amountain.
That's cool.
Everything went really nice.

Mac (04:40):
It was beautiful.
Yeah Well, and I'll just sayit's.
Having journeyed with you overthe last I don't know how many
years, but particularly over thelast few years, I'm excited
about the genesis that God isgiving you in your life a new
beginning, and so I rejoice withyou in that, Thank you.

Katie (04:58):
The picture.
I saw a couple of pictures thatwere stunning.

Josiah (05:02):
Where'd you see pictures ?

Katie (05:03):
Your sister.

Josiah (05:04):
Oh okay, yeah, your sister.
Oh okay, yeah, your sister.

Katie (05:06):
I'm like I didn't post anything, they probably weren't
the professional ones, they werejust her phone, but they were
beautiful.
Charlie, my eight-year-old wasso confused about how the two of
you were going to fit on thetop of a mountain.
I think he has like the picturelike the Grinch movie on the
top of this point, like everymountain's a triangle.

Mac (05:27):
It was the scariest wedding ever.

Katie (05:30):
Excited to be here with you, Josiah, in your newly
married state.

Mac (05:34):
What about Adam?
Are you excited?
And you, Adam, yes and you.

Adam (05:38):
Can I share something I've been antsy to share with you?
Yes, all right.
So there's these little buttonson the system that I use for
recording I made some customones for us recently.
The first one is it's good, Ilove it At any point we can hear
.

Mac (05:56):
It's good Nice.

Adam (05:59):
The other one, I feel like , is a classic, but it was well
worth it.
Praxis Padcast.
So, Mac, you're usually the onereaching over here and pressing
the buttons.
Yeah, I saw where those arelocated so I'm going to have a
lot of fun now.
I love that.

Katie (06:17):
I think that was actually me making fun of you, Josiah,
having to slip up.

Josiah (06:20):
Yeah, it was.

Adam (06:21):
Welcome to the Padcast.

Katie (06:23):
Praxis Padcast.
That's the beauty of Welcome tothe padcast.
Yeah, praxis padcast.
Yeah, that's awesome.
Okay, so we are in a seriesright now focused on healthy
church culture.
We can change gears a bit andbecause part of this series, if
you didn't get a chance tolisten to the previous episodes
you can go back and take alisten.
But, big picture, what we'vebeen talking about here is
church culture.
We've been talking about hereis church culture.

(06:45):
We've been saying every churchhas a culture and while some
churches have healthy churchcultures, many do not.
And we've also named thateveryone in the church has a
responsibility for creating theculture that exists.
We've said, yep, some people atthe top might have like
increased responsibility orinfluence, but the overall
culture is created by thetotality of people who make up a
church.
So it's been like a constanttheme in this series has been

(07:06):
culture.
So in the first part of theseries we tried to take an
honest look at what's not goingwell in the church or things
that contribute to unhealthycultures, and then we pivoted to
looking at what does make up ahealthy church culture.
We've been anchoring thisconversation in the book Church
Called Tove by Scott and LauraMcKnight and we've been kind of
running through the list ofcharacteristics that they
include in their book thatcontribute to healthy and

(07:28):
unhealthy church cultures,albeit bringing our own
perspective to the conversation.
So we've gone through a numberof characteristics so far, and
today we want to discuss theimportance of churches acting
justly.
Micah 6.8 says he has shown youwhat is good, and the word
there for good is tov.
He has shown you what is tovand what does the Lord require

(07:49):
of you?
To act justly, to love mercyand to walk humbly with your God
.
So today we want to submit thattov churches are just churches.
Churches with the tov cultureact justly and they create a
culture that pursues rightrelationship with God and others
.

Mac (08:06):
I feel like as soon as we say that word justice, it's
almost like we need to clearsome space to have a
conversation.
And the reason why is because Idon't think the word justice is
like a neutral term.
For most people listening, Iwould imagine it means different
things and sort of conjures updifferent associations for

(08:28):
different people.
And a big part, I think, ofwhat drives this is that the
word justice has been co-optedby politics, so it's got kind of
swept up in the culture warsbetween the political right and
the political left, and so formany people when they hear the
word justice, they don't thinkfirst and foremost, oh here's
what the Bible means aboutjustice, or what does Jesus have

(08:49):
to say about justice.
Rather, they're hearing theword justice in light of the
culture, wars and antagonisms atplay around us.
So maybe this is anoversimplification, but I think
this is.
What I'm noticing is that it'salmost like advocating for
justice for many people in ourculture has just been equated
with being woke, and so for somepeople like those on the

(09:11):
political left, that's a badgeof honor, you know, like we
advocate for justice, and forthose on the political right
it's something to decry, likebeing anti-woke or whatever, and
I just think that associationdoesn't do good work to just
equate justice with being woke.
My concern, right at the frontof our conversation, is because

(09:31):
people bring maybe differentassociations to this word
justice.
We first need to clear out somespace so we can actually hear
what the scripture might besaying to us.
Right, like it's almost like.
I want to challenge ourlisteners take off your
political lens for just a momentso that you can maybe gain a
biblical lens and hear whatscripture and what Jesus has to

(09:52):
say about practicing andpursuing justice.

Katie (09:55):
Am I making any sense.
Yeah, I think it's a greatpoint and the book talks about
that.
I really liked it.
You know they talk about.
Okay, like Mac, you're kind ofreferring to the term social
justice.
Like, if you say social justice,that's got this loaded term,
yep, if you say criminal justice, that conjures up a whole
nother set of like connotationsthat might be more associated,
for better or for worse, withthe political right Like all

(10:17):
these.
If you say fight for justice,okay, well, on behalf of who?
Yep, like the context and yourown perspective and experience,
I think bring a lot of meaning,and so I think that's a wise
point.
Today we want to sort ofacknowledge our lenses, like we
all have them.
So acknowledge the lenses andthe meaning that we're bringing
and then do our best to sort ofcome with an open mind to go.

(10:37):
Let's kind of take a fresh lookat what Jesus says and let that
inform how we engage ourpolitics.

Mac (10:44):
Yeah, and I would even go a step further than that and say
no, Jesus is the one who gets todefine this.
I grabbed a quote from JohnMark Comer.
He says justice is not a wordwe let secularism define to my
friends on the left, nor is it apractice we can abandon to my
friends on the right, becauseit's central to the heart of God

(11:05):
, which I know we're going toget into.
He goes on to say Jesus standsin a long line of Hebrew
prophets who stand for justicein the world.
To follow Jesus is to standwith him for justice.
So I guess my challenge isdon't just take off your
political lens.
Actually, let scripture be thething that helps define it for

(11:25):
you.
So we're asking you today notto listen.
If you're still listening tothis conversation, maybe you've
turned it off by now.
We're asking you not to listenthrough a political lens, but
rather to try to hear thingsscripturally, Because otherwise
you're gonna overhear thingswe're not saying.
You're gonna hear things we'renot saying and you're gonna miss
what we are saying.

Josiah (11:43):
You know what I mean.
Yeah, yeah, and I just want toadd this is really important.
It's really important tounderstand why we do this with
modern words and we need to dothat with more than just the
word justice, like we need to doit continually as we study
scripture.
I would hope that it's one ofthe primary things that's

(12:03):
happening from the pulpit onSunday mornings at local
churches is like hey, this isyour understanding of this word
as it's translated in English,and we have to be able to
recognize that this word has somuch meaning packed into it that
actually the original intent ofscripture didn't have.
And if you can't do that,that's when we get ourselves

(12:25):
into trouble.
We start making too muchmeaning out of things that don't
have it, or vice versa, we takeaway meaning from things that
have a lot of power.

Katie (12:37):
Yeah, like the concept of overhearing and underhearing.

Mac (12:40):
Yeah, overhearing is when you hear things that someone
didn't say, and underhearing iswhen you miss what they are
saying.
So in a sense, I think inclearing space to say, hey,
we're not trying to use thisword in a like politically
charged way.
We're inviting you not tooverhear and underhear.
And to your point, josiah, yes,one temptation is to import our

(13:01):
contemporary understanding ofword onto scripture, like we lay
that on top of scripture and wedistort what it's actually
saying.
The other thing is we miss whatis there in the original
context for those people andthen therefore lack
understanding of what theyintended.
So let's do some work there.
If I could transition us andtalk, let's talk about justice

(13:24):
for a moment, with the goalbeing how does the Bible present
this concept?
I'd like to do two things.
I want to give a quick flyoverof the word justice in the Bible
and then hopefully land on adefinition that is somewhat
palatable for us as we moveforward.
So first, the flyover, and thisis like 30,000 feet.
There's so much more nuance tothis that we could get into, so

(13:46):
I'm just gonna kind of do a highlevel overview here and scratch
the surface.
But I think if we wannaunderstand justice in the Bible,
we need to start with God.
And the reason why is because,according to the scriptures, god
is just.
It's one of God's primaryattributes, and you'll see this
in numerous places.
For instance, deuteronomy 32,4,.

(14:07):
God is the rock, his works areperfect and all of his ways are
just.
A faithful God who does nowrong, upright and just as he.
And there's several tons ofother references that talk about
how God is just, perfectly justthrough and through, and cares
about justice.
Okay, so that's the first level.
God is just.
God invites a people to belongto him and to embody God's ways

(14:31):
in the world.
That's the people of Israel inthe Old Testament.
So the people of God aresupposed to embody the character
of God and this is why,throughout the Old Testament
you'll notice, they're commandedto live justly.
God is just and so they'recommanded to reflect God's
character by living justly aswell.
Miroslav Volf, in his seminalwork, exclusion and Embrace,

(14:51):
does a lot of work on this topic.
He says this in doing justice,israel was to imitate her God
who works, vindication andjustice for all the oppressed.
That's a quote from Psalm 103,six.
Doing justice, he continuesdoing justice.
Struggling against injusticewas not an optional extra of

(15:14):
Israelite faith.
It stood at the very core.
To know God is to do justice.
Now there are many words inHebrew, um, that capture this
idea of justice.
There isn't just one.
The two most common are mishpatand tzedakah.
Mishpat occurs over 400 timesand the root word for tzedakah
occurs over 500 times.

(15:35):
And then, when you get to theNew Testament, the Greek word is
dikaiosune and it occurs 283times in the New Testament.
I'm naming those numbers sothat we can appreciate that this
is not a minor theme, butactually a very major theme.
It's circled back to with ahigh degree of frequency and

(15:57):
even perhaps redundancy.
The primary mistake I noticesome people make in
understanding this idea ofjustice and sometimes it's
translated righteousness is toassume that it's just about my
relationship with God.
But to unpack a lot of study,I'll just say this that justice

(16:18):
or righteousness in the Bible isboth a vertical thing.
So, yes, it has to do with yourrelationship with God, being
rightly related with God, but italso has to do with being
rightly related to other people,and this is why there's all
sorts of commands in scripturethat talk about connect the idea
of living justly with how youtreat other people.

(16:40):
Just a couple of quick examplesso that you know I'm not making
this up.
One of my favorites is inLeviticus 23, 22, when it tells
the Israelites hey, when you'reharvesting your crop, don't
harvest right up to the edges.
In other words, don't use allof the crop on yourselves.
Rather intentionally leave somefor the foreigner and the poor

(17:01):
residing among you.
I am the Lord.
So the prophets are constantlythen making appeals in this
direction.
For example, in Hosea 12.6,there's this command to maintain
love and justice.
In Amos 5.15, establish justice.
And then we've quoted Micah 6.8a couple times now about just
this command to act justly, tolove mercy and to walk humbly.

(17:22):
So that's kind of an overview.
God is just God's.
People are called to embodyGod's character in the world.
So we're called to live justly.
This is why, by the way, godgets so upset when his people
fail to live justly.
There's sort of this scathingrebuke of the Israelites in Amos
5, where they're still showingup to worship and he's like I

(17:42):
despise.
Your religious festivals andyour assemblies are like a
stench to me, and the reason whyis because they're neglecting
right relationship horizontally.
And so he challenges them no,you need to start practicing
relational justice.
Let justice roll on like ariver, righteousness like a
never failing stream.

(18:04):
So Jesus then comes along and hestands in line with the Hebrew
prophets and with this theme ofbiblical justice.
Jesus, as God in the flesh,embodies the very justice of God
.
He lives perfectly, just orrighteously, and he calls his
disciples then to live the sameway.

(18:25):
And of course it's clear, it'sintegrated into Jesus's
teachings Blessed are those whohunger and thirst for
righteousness.
And he reams out the religiousleaders who are tithing their
spices but neglect the weightiermatters of the law mercy, love
and justice.
So I don't know.
Maybe that's my attempt to givea quick overview.

(18:45):
Anything you guys would fill in.
Is this making sense?
Is it clear?
What would you guys add orchange to that?

Josiah (18:52):
Yeah, I think nothing to add, but maybe just to point
out an important part for us tounderstand is the right
relationship with God and theright relationship with people.
Right relationship with God andthe right relationship with
people and I think it is very,it's very easy as Christians to

(19:13):
be to make everything,especially in the evangelical
context, that everything isabout my right relationship with
God and it can become very, itcan become a very
individualistic religion right,that everything's about me.
I came to God, my life haschanged.
Now I go to church on Sundaysand everything's different about
my life.
But I have neglected what thatmeans for the justice that God

(19:37):
wants to not just enact in thegreater world but in the
relationships around me, thatGod wants to make his
relationship with me right butalso my relationships with
others right.

Katie (19:47):
Yeah, yeah, I went through a study guide maybe five
years ago about justhighlighting all the places
justice was mentioned.
Maybe not all the places itwasn't as many pages as the
numbers you just named, Mac, butjust the way that justice was a
theme throughout the NewTestament but also the old, and
that was just really eyeopeningto me.
Like I think for a long time Ihad a tendency of focusing more

(20:10):
on the New Testament but, man,when you really anchor it in the
Old Testament and youunderstand what's going on there
, it opened up this whole newlike awareness of how important
justice was for the Israelitesand how.
Jesus fulfilled that.

Mac (20:24):
Totally.
I got into like a two-yeartotal nerd moment where I was
deeply into the book ofLeviticus and that was my
biggest takeaway was here youhave this group of people who
have been victims of injustice,coming out of slavery in Egypt.
They're now like essentiallybeing given a fresh start, and

(20:46):
most of Leviticus is designed tosay here's how you're gonna
relate to me in worship and thenhere's how you're gonna live
justly among one another, withone another.
And, of course, josiah, as yousaid, like Jesus, does not let
us separate the vertical and thehorizontal.
This is why, when he's asked,hey, what's the most important

(21:06):
law, he says hey, it's lovingGod with your whole self, and
it's then loving your neighboras yourself.
There are two sides of the samecoin.
So let's get at a definition.
One definition I used in asermon a few, maybe a couple,
months ago.
I'm just gonna reuse it here isthat justice is the divinely

(21:26):
ordered way of relating to oneanother in human society.
So the key there is just tounderstand that it's about
justice, is about enacting God'sways in the world.
It's about wanting to see, then, all things that are wrong made
right.
John Mark Comer says justiceabout making wrong things right,

(21:46):
crooked things straight.
So it's really just aboutwanting to see God's kingdom be
a reality, which means that theplaces in the world where it's
not a reality we should befighting against those working
to see God's will be done onearth as it is in heaven.
And so does that work.
Do you think that definitionworks?

Katie (22:09):
I like it.

Adam (22:10):
Okay, yes, cool Cool.

Mac (22:14):
So, all right, Well, there's lots of quotes and
amazing things people have saidabout this topic, but I want to
transition and kind of turn itover to you guys to get us going
, and we've hinted at this.
But how do you see Jesus, youknow, standing in line with the
Hebrew prophets and the Hebrewscripture, embodying and
enacting justice throughout hislife and ministry and enacting

(22:34):
justice throughout his life andministry.
If we're called as disciples tolive like Jesus and Jesus lived
justly let's start by attendingto how we see Jesus putting
this on display for us.

Josiah (22:45):
Yeah, well, first off, jesus explicitly taught about
this topic.
So Jesus was a rabbi and taughtas a teacher and was explicitly
teaching on it throughout histeaching.
So we see it right in theSermon on the Mount in the
Beatitudes Blessed are those whohunger and thirst for

(23:08):
righteousness.
And, mac, I learned this whenyou preached on it recently, but
also you've already spokenabout it earlier that that word
for righteousness could also betranslated into justice, which
maybe helps us realize that Idon't know about you guys, but
the word righteousness has itsown connotations for me.

Mac (23:30):
Yes.

Josiah (23:31):
It makes me think of having to be perfect, right and
making sure I never make amistake.

Katie (23:37):
Yeah, Kind of like a moralism kind of question.

Mac (23:40):
Right.
Well, sometimes when you'redoing a word study in the
original languages, you go, oh,it could be translated this way.
But the question is okay, buthow should it be translated?
The reason why I think thatshould be translated justice,
not just could be is because inthe Beatitudes, jesus is quoting
every one of the Beatitudes,he's either quoting or alluding

(24:00):
to passages in the Old Testamentthat are associated with God's
coming kingdom, his deliveringgrace, and that one in
particular.
He's quoting Isaiah 61.
And three times in that passageit talks about God as the one
bringing justice, and every timethat Hebrew word that's used
there is translated into theGreek, it's the same word that
Jesus uses here.

(24:21):
So clearly, in Isaiah 61, itmeans justice.
If we're gonna follow the logic, it should be translated
justice.

Josiah (24:30):
Yeah, yeah, that was very interesting to me and
helpful for me in growing up ina Christian context where
righteousness was I'm not sayingit was used.
It just had connotations of mehaving to be as perfect as God
is in order to have goodrelationship with him.
And that's not what.
That's most likely not whatJesus is saying here.

(24:50):
So, anyway, so that we haveanother space where he's
teaching and he says unless yourrighteousness or your justice
surpasses that of the Phariseesspots where he was multiple
places where he's pointing outthe flaws within the Pharisees'
teaching, where they wereneglecting the more important

(25:10):
matters.
So, yeah, jesus was explicitlyteaching this topic to his
disciples, so it must have beenvery important.

Mac (25:18):
Yeah, yeah.
You can't just skirt theteachings of Jesus if you're
going to follow Jesus right Likethis is the one thing that I
keep trying to name.
We're in a series if you're partof our community on the Sermon
on the Mount called the Way ofJesus, and the most shocking
statistic that I've noticedrecently that's kind of grabbed
my attention and sort of isdriving me right now in ministry

(25:41):
is that 63% of Americans adultAmericans identify as Christian.
But upon deeper analysis ofwhat that means, only 4% are
living out the teachings ofJesus.
So that means we're living in aculture where many people are
sort of cultural Christians butthey're not practicing
Christians.
And it seems, if you wanna be apracticing Christian someone

(26:03):
who a disciple, an apprentice,someone who's wanting to be in
intimate relationship with Jesus, becoming like Jesus and doing
what Jesus did you've got toknow what his teachings are.

Katie (26:16):
Yeah, right, yeah.

Mac (26:18):
Cause you can't claim to follow Jesus and then just kind
of completely ignore everythinghe said and did.
That doesn't make sense.

Adam (26:24):
Yep, yep.

Katie (26:26):
Another thing I would add is, I think Jesus sort of
prophetically exposed injusticearound him.
When you look at the things hesaid and what he did, yeah, he
really did.
He did just that.
So one example that comes tomind is like the cleansing of
the temple.
In the gospels you have thestory of Jesus coming into the
temple courts and finds thatpeople were kind of buying and

(26:48):
selling things there.
And okay, one thing I learnedrecently, which I don't think I
understood previously, is thatit wouldn't be abnormal to be
like buying and selling thingskind of around the temple.
You had Israelites coming in tocelebrate Passover, right, and
they would have had to like,maybe purchase animals for
sacrifice or exchange theirmoney, and it wasn't uncommon
for that general practice.

(27:08):
But I think what was happeninghere is that people were being
exploited.
People who were from far away,who were in a position of sort
of powerlessness, were beingexploited.
People who were from far away,who were in a position of sort
of powerlessness, were beingexploited, and the place where
that exploitation was happeningwas in the temple, like in God's
sacred space.
The place that is supposed tobe honored was being used to
perpetuate injustice.

Mac (27:29):
Yeah, that's right.
And maybe another way that Ithink that that narrative is
misunderstood is some peoplesort of see Jesus losing his
sauce, like he just is so filledwith rage he kind of loses his
temper.
But Jesus was a prophet.
He's more than a prophet butnot less than a prophet.
And if you look at the way theprophets functioned in the Old

(27:52):
Testament, their primary jobwasn't to predict the future.
They did do some of that, butit was predominantly to call
Israel back into covenantfaithfulness, righteousness and
justice and alignment with God'swill and God's ways.
And throughout the OldTestament, when you read the
prophets, you'll notice theyoften had to do pretty dramatic
and symbolic things to drawattention to Israel's lack of

(28:16):
faithfulness.
So for instance, like Hosea hadto actually marry an unfaithful
woman to go this is God inIsrael, you're the unfaithful
woman right.

Josiah (28:26):
Didn't he also have to shave his hair, or was that a
different one?
Shave his head and then drifthis hair into three different
parts of the wind to representdifferent things.
Jeremiah had to bury like abelt and then drift his hair
into three different parts ofthe wind to represent different
things.

Mac (28:36):
Jeremiah had to bury like a belt and then let it decay, and
then come back and go.
Hey, israel, this is whatyou've become.
You've become ruined.
Ezekiel had to lay on his sidefor an extended period of time
to represent the siege ofJerusalem.
Isaiah had it the worst he hadto walk around naked and
barefoot for three years as asign against Egypt and Cush.

(28:57):
So it was just like this.
So sometimes we forget thatJesus is standing in line with
these prophets who did thesevisible things to draw attention
to reality and to your point,katie.
That's what's going on.
It's prophetic drama.
Jesus is doing somethingdramatic and prophetic to draw

(29:18):
attention to the exploitationyou're naming.

Katie (29:21):
Yeah, yeah again.
Anchoring what Jesus does inthe Old Testament helps us
understand better what he'sdoing.
I think another example of himexposing injustice is healing on
the Sabbath.
We see him heal people and raisepeople from the dead, and that
angers the religious leaders,and I think what he's doing is

(29:42):
he's exposing the injustice oftheir legalism right, like you
have this rule that ispurportedly anchored in God's
law but it doesn't align withGod's heart, like what's more
important here healing someoneor carrying out this rule that
you created.
That actually undermines God'sheart for people, and so by
healing and kind of challengingthem, I think he's exposing

(30:05):
injustice that's actuallyembedded in the law that they
held up.

Mac (30:09):
Yeah, I mean, and I would add, now that you've brought up
the point that Jesus is sort ofexposing the injustice around
him.
I would add to that list theway he relates to women.
It was a patriarchal culturewhere women were treated not
much better than slaves orproperty.
And Jesus welcomes women to behis disciples, which was unheard
of, and they're the first onesto actually encounter him after

(30:32):
the resurrection.

Josiah (30:33):
So that would have been exposing a provocative exposure
of injustice around him rightyeah, and not in a way that
would have benefited hisministry, right Right.
So it's not like it was forself-promotion in any sort of
way.
He was doing so because he wasenacting the justice of God's

(30:54):
heart.

Mac (30:54):
And maybe we'll get into this.
Most of the people that exposeinjustice don't do it to their
benefit.
They actually pay a steep priceand ultimately we see Jesus
paying that price.
He is crucified for exposinginjustice, and the cross itself
is an exposure of injustice,because he was in fact innocent.

(31:14):
Yeah, and speaking to that, somaybe one that I would add is
that Jesus died and rose fromthe dead to establish the
justice of God.
So you know, jesus went to thecross to fix all that's broken
in the world and to set it right, and this obviously includes
the vertical.
We've named this.
While we were yet sinners,christ died for us so he

(31:36):
restores our relationship withGod.
But I think, especially inevangelical churches, we often
miss this.
The cross also reconciles ushorizontally.
I mean, ephesians 2 talks abouthow, through Jesus's death on
the cross, the dividing wallbetween Jew and Gentile was torn
down, and so Jesus, through hisdeath and resurrection,

(31:56):
actually defeats theprincipalities and powers that
hold humanity hostage to sin andthat drive the injustice in the
world.
This is why Jesus died on thecross and rose from the dead was
to defeat injustice itself,right?
So not only did Jesus confrontinjustice in his life and
ministry, but he died to putinjustice to death once and for

(32:19):
all.
And here's what I'm excitedabout.
Is that this actually, I think,needs to be part of how we
present the good news to peopleAgain, kind of going back to the
vertical and the horizontal.
So much of our gospelpresentation is, just as you
were saying, josiah, like thisindividualistic.
Here's what God did for you Notto negate that, but the gospel

(32:39):
is so much bigger than that, andso part of what Jesus
accomplishes, part of what thegood news is about, is restoring
all that's broken in the world,and I think we actually miss an
opportunity with people to namethat.
God is a God who, through Jesus, brings about redemption and
justice that we all crave.
I've noticed with some of myliberal friends it's like man,

(33:02):
you guys really do have some ofthe values of the kingdom, but
you don't really want the kingand you can't have the justice
of the kingdom without the kingyou know, yeah, yeah, it's such
a good point.

Katie (33:14):
This, to me, hits on that tension of living in like the
already and the not yet.
Like Jesus's death inauguratedin the reign of God and the
kingdom of justice, but it's notyet fully realized or fully
consummated.
Jesus shows us that God'skingdom is one that like makes
all things right in the world,like it does justice, and so
when we work for justice, we'repartnering with God to bring

(33:35):
about his kingdom in the world.
Like it does justice, and sowhen we work for justice, we're
partnering with God to bringabout his kingdom on the earth.
I was listening to an NT Wrightpodcast lately and he's really
helped sort of deepen mythinking on this stuff and he
said that he said, basically,the things we do in the present
will somehow be made part ofthis new world that God is going

(33:56):
to make.
Jesus talks about how giving acup of cold water to somebody
because they believe in him willnot go unremembered, and he
says that even small gestureslike that will be taken up and
woven into this great tapestryof God's new creation.
And so I just I love thatpicture of how we're not

(34:20):
supposed to just sort of sitback and like leave certain
things in our head or pray orkind of wait passively for the
end of the world where allthings are made right.
We're actually called becausewe believe in Jesus's death and
resurrection.
We're called to partner withGod and bringing about justice
today.

Mac (34:26):
Yeah, yeah.
It almost seems like for somepeople it's just about praying a
prayer and then you get to goto heaven when you die and
nothing here really matters.
And I hear what NT Wright andyou're saying, challenging that,
no, you're to be working forthat right now.
But then there's other peoplethat seem to want that right now
and they're willing to fightfor it right now, which is great
.
But sometimes they don'trecognize that like, yeah, but

(34:49):
it's not going to become areality apart from Jesus.
Like you want racism to end?
Great Me too.
Only Jesus is going to be ableto bring that to an end.
You want a world free ofmisogyny?
Great Me too.
Only Jesus is going to end upcreating a world where that's
actually a reality.
You want a world free ofexploitation?
Yeah, me too.
Me too, and we are to befighting for that right now.

(35:11):
But we're fighting for it inthe way of Jesus, knowing that
he is the one who's going tofinally bring it about in the
new heavens and the new earth.
And I like that idea of, like,every effort, every action,
somehow God is going to gatherup as part of establishing that
new creation.

Katie (35:28):
Yeah, we're bringing the kingdom here now and working to
create that new creation.

Josiah (35:33):
Yep, yeah, yeah.
So we're talking a lot aboutwhat this looks like, how Jesus
is calling, might be calling usto act justly.
What does that look like as achurch then?
So we're talking about theconcept and we're understanding
the importance, we've defined it, we've set all this up.

(35:54):
So now what does that look likeif we're a local body of
believers?
What does it look like for usto act justly then?

Katie (36:02):
Yep, it's an important question.
We are the church and we'respeaking to the church.
Yeah, I might say that thefirst half of this work just
starts by being able to spotinjustice.
Work just starts by being ableto spot injustice, and I would
go further to say that ifsomething's not impacting you,

(36:23):
it might be harder to see it.
Not it might.
It will be harder to see it.
If there's an injustice andyou're not impacted by it,
you're going to have to work alittle harder.
Let me give an example here.
At Crosspoint, maybe what?
Four or five years ago we madethe shift to allowing women to
preach and we had a number ofconversations and we sort of
engaged and for the most part,people were aligned with that.

(36:44):
Some people weren't, which isfine.
They had their differentreasons for beliefs and their
convictions and how they readscripture.
But I remember one personsaying something like hey,
things are working fine the waythey are, so why would we change
it?
And I remember thinking, okay,well, fine, for who?
You're not someone who iswanting to hear a woman preach.
You're not a woman who'swanting to preach.

(37:05):
So maybe you're notunderstanding the impact like
someone who's actually impactedby the way things are.
Another one might be when we buyour clothes.
There's this term like fastfashion.
When we buy things that becausethey're cheap on Amazon and
they're whatever we want themclothes, whatever you name it we

(37:26):
don't always know the hiddencost to creating that thing.
Was it created in fair workingconditions?
Was it using child labor, andwhat are the injustices that
went on to deliver this thing toyou?
We have to work harder to seethat and know that we could
actually be perpetuatinginjustice that doesn't impact us
, and so it's easy just to kindof have blinders on.
So my point is that if you'renot negatively impacted, we're

(37:48):
going to have to look a littleharder to spot it.

Mac (37:52):
Yeah, I wonder too if we could maybe make a distinction
too about like injustice withinthe church and like matters of
justice outside the wall, likein society.
You know what I mean and I seeyour point carrying through to
both of those right.
Your first example had to dowith like hey, women preaching.

(38:13):
Not only is that a scripturalthing, like in equipping of all
God's people to use their giftsand activate their calling, but
then the second example of likehey, how you get your clothes,
is more of a societal thing.
You know what I mean.
And we have to be able to spotinjustice both within the church
and outside the church.

Katie (38:35):
Yeah, it's a good distinction.
Another example, maybe in thechurch category that they name
in the book, is loyalty culture.
So Scott and Laura talk aboutsomething called toxic loyalty.
Basically, they say, hey,loyalty is a good thing,
generally like, loyalty is avirtue, but when it obstructs
justice and prevents people fromdoing what is right, it becomes

(38:55):
toxic.
When it becomes the highestvalue, it can become unhealthy.
The example they give is RachelDenhollander, who's most
well-known for exposing sexualabuse with Larry Nassar of the
USA Gymnastics.
But prior to that, she hadcalled attention to sexual abuse
within her church and when sheand others came forward, they

(39:15):
were called divisive, they weretold not to report it to the
authorities and they were evenremoved from volunteer positions
within the church for speakingout about what was happening.
All in the name of loyalty.
You're being divisive, you'renot being loyal, you're not
being unifying.
So another way of saying thiswould be to say, yeah, loyalty
is important, but loyalty to who, like?

(39:36):
Loyalty to an organization orloyalty to God, like when those
two conflict, where is yourloyalty?

Mac (39:42):
And.

Katie (39:43):
I think when the loyalty to the organization becomes
primary, that's when you havewhat they call this toxic
loyalty and that can get in theway of working for justice.

Mac (39:51):
Yeah, and unfortunately, even though we've made a
distinction between injustice inthe world and injustice within
the church, often those mirroreach other.
So, for instance, in a companywhere the CEO has all the power,
well, the church has sort ofadopted the CEO lead pastor
mentality and oftentimes loyaltyto the lead pastor then sort of

(40:14):
compels people to close theireyes or ignore injustices by
that pastor.
Right, I've noticed, being in achurch for a long time there's
lots of ways that injusticeflows through or in a church.
Sometimes people who are moreaffluent get special treatment,

(40:35):
get more attention, get a seatat the decision-making table,
whereas people who are maybeless important, less affluent,
don't get as much attention orrecognition.
Right, that's an injustice thatscripture actually speaks to in
James chapter two.
Like you're not to do that,you're not to show favoritism
that way.
Right, you're not to showfavoritism that way, right?

(40:59):
So I guess what I'm saying iskind of like when it'd be easy
to talk about justice and pointout the injustices of others,
rather than like, okay, well,maybe we need to orient to this
the way Jesus talked about,which is to imagine we have a
massive log in our eye, ratherthan like try to pick out the
speck in someone else's eye.
You know what I mean.
Yeah.

Katie (41:19):
Yeah, I think, unfortunately, we could have a
really long conversation aboutall the injustices within the
church.

Mac (41:23):
Well, and we've, honestly, we've alluded to a lot of them,
you know, along the way,especially in the toxic sort of
naming some of the toxins in thesoil.
So, okay, well, maybe I'll justpropel us forward.
Oh, go ahead, josiah, I justnoticed you're doing a lot of
things that are indicatingthere's a finger in the air.

Katie (41:43):
There's the deep breath.

Josiah (41:44):
Well, I said, yeah, after that sentence you said and
then I was certain I was goingto say what I was thinking, and
then it left my brain.
And then it left my brain, yeah,I was going to say that it's
almost like this concept ofjustice needs to be understood

(42:05):
as like a foundational conceptbefore we even talk about the
other things that we've beentalking about, the other toxins
in the soil, because when youmentioned the whole toxic
loyalty thing, I'm justimagining that if you're in a
situation and you're feelingdivisive because you realize

(42:28):
this is going to cause a biguproar, this is going to cause a
big mess, if I say somethingunderstanding that God's heart
is for justice, that things areto be made right, that there
would be no one victimized, thatno matter how important the
work that's happening at thischurch is, this heart for things

(42:50):
being right is core to God'scharacter and it should be to
ours as well.
So it just becomes a weightingsystem of like which thing is
more important?
And if something is a part ofGod's character, it should be
very important to us as a church.
So it almost helps us in ourdecision-making and like if
something is worth bringing upor if it's worth talking about

(43:12):
or worth moving towards.
We need to.
We need to understand theweightier matters, and I guess
what I hear everyone saying inthis conversation is that
justice is a very weighty matterwhen it comes to God's kingdom.

Mac (43:25):
Yes, At the heart of justice is doing the right thing
, even when it's the hard thing.
And so underneath this is atrue commitment, a deep
conviction and commitment todoing the right thing even when
it's the hard thing.
And I don't think we just getto fill in the term justice with
whatever we want.
You know what I mean.
Like that's the important thinghere.

(43:47):
Scott McKnight has this greatquote in the book.
He says justice means to beempowered through the spirit to
do the right thing, and theright thing is what Jesus
teaches.
So we're talking about, we talkabout a commitment, a weightier
commitment to do the rightthing.
We're talking about enactingthe teachings of Jesus together.
And I'm assuming I'm just goingto name this I'm assuming that

(44:09):
not only is doing the rightthing the hard thing, doing the
just thing is often going to bethe more difficult choice of the
two, but it naturally is goingto be costly to you.
Living in the way of Jesusinvolves cruciformity.
Jesus's way involves exposingand pursuing justice, and it's

(44:30):
going to take place at cost toyourself.
As you were saying before,Josiah.
It's not like, as Jesus didthis.
People were applauding him.
It ended up costing Jesus hisvery life.
And actually, when you look atall those incredible examples
throughout church history ofpeople we'd hold up as, wow,
what an incredible example ofsomeone who gave their life to

(44:53):
pursuing God's kingdom come.
Someone who gave their life topursuing God's kingdom, come the
very justice of God.
Many of them paid a price forit.
You think about DietrichBonhoeffer deciding to return to
Germany and ultimately dying ina concentration camp.
You think about Martin LutherKing, and on and on it goes.
Oscar Romero, and you know whatI mean.

(45:14):
Like all these people, DesmondTutu, all these people paid a
price, a really steep price, foradvocating for justice.
Yep, and I wonder okay, youguys are just sitting there, I'm
going to provoke you Like, isthe church willing to pay that
price?
Are we willing to pay the priceof being on the side of God's

(45:37):
justice?
Or do we look at like, oh, ifwe do this, it's going to cost
us, People aren't going to behappy or whatever, and so we
just, like, remain silent andmaybe even complicit in the
injustice.

Katie (45:49):
You know what I mean.

Josiah (45:51):
I do.
I mentioned that the shifttowards allowing women to preach
and be in positions ofleadership that they weren't
before was an act of justice forus, like that was a.
It was a clear understandingfor us to say no.
We want to be more faithful toscripture and allow everyone to

(46:13):
express their gifts here.
That did not.
That was not met with applausefrom everybody.

Mac (46:20):
No, and let me double click on that, because some people
accused our community of beingculturally complicit and
allowing women to preach andteach Right and my-.

Josiah (46:29):
Like we're neglecting certain scriptures because they
are inconvenient neglectingcertain scriptures because they
are inconvenient.

Mac (46:41):
That and my counter response was actually an
environment where women aretreated as different than men is
culturally conditioned, and itstarted in Genesis 3 with the
fall.
One of the consequences thatGod outlines for Adam and Eve is
now there's going to be enmitybetween the two of you and he's
going to dominate over you.
Hierarchy did not exist beforethat moment, and now all of a
sudden it does exist, and sothis is my opinion.

(47:03):
I'm not saying all of ourlisteners need to agree.
This is my opinion, but Iactually think that church
cultures who maintain apatriarchal hierarchy where men
are in charge over women isactually sort of perpetuating
the fall, and it's actuallyculturally conditioned.
And the kingdom of God there'sno Jew or Greek slave, nor free

(47:25):
male nor female, and so part ofthe kingdom coming again.
This is my conviction and isrooted in scripture.
At least my understanding ofscripture is to go.
Yes, so it is a matter ofjustice.
Justice tears down thosehierarchies, it tears down the
walls that divide people and itcreates equal footing at the
foot of the cross.

Katie (47:44):
Yeah, I agree with all that and, like Josiah, it feels
a little bit disorienting whenyou make a move in the name of
faithfulness and in the name ofmoving closer in line with what
we believe scripture to besaying, and then are accused of
capitulating to culture.

Mac (48:02):
It's the worst.
Yeah, yeah, it's not fun.

Josiah (48:06):
Well, I think of it this way the announcement of the
kingdom and the justice of Godrolling into let's just say it's
rolling into a localenvironment is really good news
for people who are oppressed andbroken and downtrodden, but
it's not necessarily good newsfor the people who have been
benefiting from the injustice.

Mac (48:27):
That's right.

Josiah (48:28):
So I guess for us maybe we can when we understand this
concept of justice, that it'smaking things right and it's
going to expose the ways thatpeople have been mistreated, we
can expect that there will be adisruption in the people's lives
who wanted the status quo tostay the same.

Mac (48:49):
And you see that throughout Jesus's ministry.
Who are the people that aregathering around Jesus with
excitement?
It's the downtrodden, it's themarginalized, and so on.
Who are the people who areoutraged by what Jesus is doing
and saying?
It's those with power.
Right, Because justice iscoming, the kingdom of God is
breaking in and it's elevatingthose who have been pushed down

(49:11):
and it's lowering those who havebeen elevated, right yeah.

Katie (49:15):
And even in lowering those who have been elevated,
not shaming, not condemning, butinviting them into placing
their identity in Christ, and Ithink there's grace for both.

Mac (49:24):
It's for their own liberation, and good yeah, like
exploiting other people to yourbenefit isn't actually good for
you.

Katie (49:31):
Yes, yes, that's the point I was trying to make.

Mac (49:36):
Sorry, I'm getting a little wound up.
You're giving me that.
Look like.
Oh, Mac, you're fine.

Katie (49:40):
No, that was a great.
I won't call it a rant.
It was a great discussion,that's good.

Josiah (49:55):
Yeah, that's good, yeah.
Another way that's probablyworth mentioning is just and it
kind of goes along with thelines of this is we need to
acknowledge when we fail to actjustly, and this can happen very
explicitly and sort ofimplicitly right that, like
there can be very obvious waysin which we are, our eyes are
open to realize oh, I've donesomething wrong, I need to
repent, um.
But also there are there aretimes when something's happening
and we sit by and don't want tobe the one to cause the
disruption, right In the name ofnot not wanting to be divisive

(50:20):
or in other things, um, and Ithink of a.
I actually have an example fromour.
It was a large number of yearsago when, towards the beginning
of my tenure here, I remember Iwas organizing some youth
worship leaders who had beenleading and they were promised

(50:45):
to get paid for their leadershipbecause we were sort of in a
spot of needing some things.
And it was a large ask.
They were leading on Sundaymorning and having to do a fair
amount of things.
So we had agreed me and mycolleague, who is not here
anymore, agreed to say hey, thisis what we're going to pay you,

(51:05):
a certain amount for your extraefforts because we need to rely
on you.
Long story short, you fastforward some time and when it
was time to pay them, there wasresistance from my colleague and
actually even said that maybehe'd never said that, and there

(51:27):
was a little bit of an uproarfrom the worship leaders that I
was helping to manage in thefact that they weren't getting
paid, and I felt prettypowerless.
I had said some things but itreally wasn't my call,
budget-wise, to do it, and Iremember it was shortly after

(51:47):
Cameron was hired on staff thathe came in and when he heard
about it, his first reaction washe went directly to the source
of like, hey, what's going on?
And essentially used hisposition because he was
overseeing some of the youthstuff to say, no, we're going to

(52:08):
do this right and we're goingto make it right, because we
told you we were going to payyou, we're going to pay you, and
within a couple of weeks checkswere cut and I remember from
someone who didn't feel like Ihad the power to say something,
when someone else came in andadvocated for that he could have
not done anything because itprobably was a disruption.

Katie (52:29):
It probably made lots of people, especially being new.

Josiah (52:31):
Yes, he came in new and said no, this is wrong, we're
just going to, we need to makeit right.
And it was such a freeingfeeling from the person who was
powerless, you know, and I'msure even more so for the people
who were waiting to get paid,who couldn't say anything and
advocate for themselves, someoneto come in to say I'm going to

(52:51):
use the position I have to actjustly and, even though I'm not
the one who made the mistake, Iwant to be part of making it
right and I think it made it.
Yeah, anyway, I just like beingon the other side of that.
It was very, very empoweringand meaningful.
Yeah, anyway, I just like beingon the other side of that.
It was very, very empoweringand meaningful.

Mac (53:11):
Yeah, it also strikes me as significant that we need to be
able to share these storiesbecause, like the early church
didn't hide their failures to dothe same, like there's stories
of how the early church wascompromised when it came to
injustice and so on, and then ittalks about how they made it
right.
So one example, for instance,would be Acts 6, when you had

(53:31):
the distribution of food to thewidows, and the Greek women were
being overlooked in favor ofthe Jewish women and similar to
Cameron's attitude.
When the leaders found outabout it, they attended to it,
they did something about it andactually appointed a team of
people to make sure there waseven distribution, all of whom,
by the way, were Greek.
But they made it right.
Oftentimes, when we prepare totake communion, we make it that

(53:55):
individual thing like do youhave any sin?
You should confess that.
I'm not saying that's bad, butthat's actually not what Paul
was doing in that moment.
The church at Corinth wasdivided along socioeconomic
lines, and so you had poorpeople had to work all day and
you had the wealthy people whodidn't have to work as long.
They were getting there firstand eating all the food, and so

(54:18):
Paul is reaming them out becausehe's like the table is a place
where you come together asequals and you are doing the
exact opposite, right?
He doesn't hide that Like.
This is in the scripture for allof us to see that, whoa, even
while they're celebrating theLord's supper, taking communion,
there's injustice reflected atthe table and he goes after it,

(54:41):
right?
So I think it does really goodwork.
I'm just going to assume mostchurches have some layers of
injustice, some stories likethat where all of a sudden,
these volunteers aren't gettingpaid, and those are crucial
moments.
Those are Kairos moments wherewe have to decide are we really
committed to doing the rightthing, even when it maybe puts
strain on the budget or messesthings up?

(55:01):
Messes up how I'm going to steponto the staff team or whatever
.
Are we willing to do the rightthing?

Katie (55:07):
Yeah, and up messes up, how I'm going to step onto the
staff team or whatever.
Are we willing to do the rightthing?
Yeah, and kind of two buckets Ihear you guys naming.
One is when you helped in someway perpetuate the injustice and
one is when you actually didn't, but being complicit in it.
Like, but to do nothing or tonot speak up would be complicit
in an injustice.

Mac (55:24):
Yeah, and then you look at the broader church right now and
all the scandals that are beingreported.
Oftentimes it did involve somereports early on that were
ignored, or not.
Someone didn't attend to it anddo the right thing, and over
time, um, it made it a hundredtimes worse than had they just
done the right thing right fromthe beginning, and so many more
people end up getting hurt.
There's more victims.

(55:44):
There's right.

Katie (55:46):
Yeah, yeah, okay.
We've said a lot.
We've talked about justice atlength.
We've talked about what gets inthe way of it, how can we can
try to act justly as a church.
What would you guys say kind ofpivoting here?
What would you say are someconcrete practices that we can
put?

Mac (56:07):
into place to embody this.
I want to circle back tosomething you said earlier,
Katie, that I think should be apractice and is so important.
You highlighted thesignificance of empathy.

Katie (56:18):
I did.

Mac (56:18):
Yeah, you were talking about how, when it doesn't
really impact you, you likelyaren't going to see it.
Yes, and so practice one is togrow your empathy, because I
think if you're not personallyimpacted by an injustice, it's
easy for you to ignore it.
Like if you're insulated fromit, you may not even see it, and
I know for me.
Let me give you an example itwould be my son, griffin.

(56:41):
Before we had Griffin, who hasDown syndrome, I felt very
insulated from individuals whohad disabilities, and now that I
have a child with a disability,I have a whole new set of eyes
as to how Griffin is beingtreated, how people interact
with them and so on and so forth.
Right, and now when I encounterother people with disabilities,

(57:02):
I relate to them so muchdifferently because of Griffin.
I relate to them so muchdifferently than had Griffin.
I relate to them so muchdifferently than had I before I
had Griffin.
That make sense.
And what's going on?
There is empathy.
I now am inside that person'sexperience in a different way.
I relate to their parents andtheir child differently.
So my point is if maybe youhear some area that's being

(57:27):
named as unjust and you'reunmoved by that, right, and I
get the term.
Justice is complicated.
Oftentimes there's clashingjustices, which Miroslav Volf
does a great job talking aboutin Exclusion and Embrace.
It's complicated find yourselfunmoved by an area that's being

(57:50):
named as unjust.
It might be worth reallyslowing down and imagine, like
putting yourself in thosepeople's shoes and imagining
their experience, so that youcan be moved to action.

Josiah (57:58):
Yeah, yeah, it's a really worthwhile prayer to say
God, I'm okay getting disruptedin my own personal peace to be a
part of your justice in theworld.
I do think there's this timewhen I was in high school we had
a couple of people who one ofthem came to our church and he

(58:21):
had a disability and he was justa wonderful person.
He's still someone that if Isaw him in person Colin Adam
knows him too he would run upand give me a hug.
But a wonderful person, but he.
I remember in high school he anda couple of other people they
sat, he along with some of theother people who were either had

(58:45):
disabilities or other things.
They would all sit at the samelunch table and they were like
the kids.
Everybody either didn'tunderstand or they thought they
were kind of gross or thingslike that.
And I remember that and Iremember making the choice
because I knew one of them hadsome access to go sit with him
at the lunch table and I wouldoften and I felt uncomfortable

(59:06):
the first couple of timesbecause you're just not sure how
they're going to feel about youor all that stuff.
But when you start to get, whenyou allow yourself to be
proximate to things that are anissue, you start to notice more
things that are an issue.
Yes, and I remember veryspecifically there were these.
There were kids in school thatliked to make fun of some of

(59:28):
these people from the table andColin was a friend and they
would always do this thing wherethey would drop change when he
walked past because he wouldstop and pick it up, no matter
what.
It didn't matter who dropped it, like if there was money on the
ground.
He was very aware of it and hedidn't realize people were even

(59:48):
teasing him for it.
They would laugh at him for it.
And I remember then making theconscious effort to try to walk
next to him when he walked past.
And then when people would dropchange, we just like instead of
I don't know, maybe I couldhave tried to fight him or
something like try to pushpeople around, but rather I
would just walk next to him andwould just walk past instead of

(01:00:11):
going to pick up the change.
Be like, okay, let's just walkover here and try to distract
him, try to make I don't know,it was just my effort to be like
your way of helping.
Just trying to help, but I guessmy point is that story came to
mind in the sense that that,like I don't know if I would
have been empathetic towards himwithout having a relationship
with him.

Mac (01:00:30):
That's right.
Yeah, I guess it's just to sayuh, our willingness to live
justly is connected to ourempathy, and this isn't just
with people with disabilities,it's every area where there's
someone who's being mistreated.
You know, I know that the wholeidea of racism is complicated
for people.
Some see it, some don't.

(01:00:51):
But lean in, Talk to people andlisten to their experiences.
If you listen to some of ourcomments about women and you're
like I don't see it.
I've talked to women and theirexperiences.
You press in with empathy andyou get on the inside of how
someone is thinking and feelingand you come out different on

(01:01:13):
the other end.

Katie (01:01:15):
Yeah.
So that leads us into anotherpractice that I would just name
as educating yourself.
That's a great way.
Getting proximate and talkingto other people about their
experience is a great way toeducate yourself.
There is so much informationout there now podcasts, books,
resources, blogs, I meanwhatever.
Take any area of injustice andjust engage the material out

(01:01:36):
there.
We've talked about women in thechurch.
We've talked about sexual abuseand harassment.
Another one you just touched on,mac, is like racial injustice.
That's one that I reallystarted opening my eyes to maybe
five, six years ago, and therewas just a lot that I didn't see
until I chose to really stepinto certain spaces and engage
resources.

(01:01:56):
I mean, okay, I found out onlyrecently that we still have
deeds, like property deeds inMilwaukee that have racial
restrictions written into them.
They're not legal, they're notlegally enforceable.
It was struck down in the 60sbut the deeds still have the
language like no persons ofcolor may purchase this house.
That language still exists in alot of these.
That blew my mind.

(01:02:17):
That blew my mind, and so thenI started learning about kind of
redlining and all of that.
So I guess I would say it'simportant to take the time to
educate yourself aboutinjustices that exist, because
the first step in workingtowards justice is awareness of
places where it's not present.

Mac (01:02:31):
Yeah, and there are really smart Christians who are
wrestling with these things froma Jesus-centered,
scripturally-based perspective.
So it's not like again, don'thear that in terms of, like the
culture warsy stuff.
No, no, no, starting point isthe person of Jesus and God's
word and then, as we build upfrom that, we engage.

Katie (01:02:53):
Right.
If God's standard is justiceGod's standard for what's right
and wrong anchors all of thisThen the way we define justice
or injustice is by things thatdon't match up with God's
standard.
That's right.

Josiah (01:03:06):
Yep, yeah.
Another one would name is toconsider your own role in the
injustices that are happening,maybe in your world.
This would be maybe you havedone something to wrong someone
or have continually done so andyou're realizing it and you're

(01:03:27):
cleaning up a mess and makingthings right, but also maybe
some of the ways, um, that, uh,maybe, just as we're talking,
you're thinking, um, you know,some of these issues seemed like
non-issues to me and I'mrealizing that if, if this is an
issue that God cares about, um,there's, there's been ways that
I've been complicit.

(01:03:56):
I guess I would just name thatit is scary to step into matters
of justice when you havesomething to lose from the
process.
I think it's worthacknowledging that the internal
resistance of I don't want todeal with it because I don't
want to disrupt my peace is avery normal feeling to have.
If you're stepping intosomething and, rather than

(01:04:17):
trying to villainize yourself orothers or get defensive, just
realize it's normal to feel aninternal resistance because I'm
actively choosing to step intosomething that's going to
disrupt my own status quo.
That's just human nature and tonormalize that.
I will feel scared, deciding tobecome proximate to something

(01:04:40):
that is probably close to God'sheart and normalize the fact
that I will feel scared, but Ican still do it.

Mac (01:04:47):
Yeah, I mean it's going to require you to go outside your
comfort zone and obviouslythere's growth when you do that
and we as a church communitywant to put opportunities before
people to participate inpushing past their comfort zone
and being part of justice making.
And there's lots ofopportunities, if you're part of
our community and have neverdone that, to step into.

(01:05:08):
We have a student mentoringprogram for kids who need some
extra support.
In our community We've got aracial peacemaking group which
is working with bridge builders,and an organization in
Milwaukee that renovatesneighborhoods Really cool, I
mean we've had a group of peoplegoing down there every month
and just phenomenal experiencedown there.
We did the human traffickingepisode last episode, so there's

(01:05:32):
an opportunity to press inthere, celebrate recovery,
supporting people in recovery,work I don't know food pantry
like there's all sorts of stuffwe're doing to go.
This is an embodiment of God'sways and actually caring for
people.
And, as Martin Luther King said, you know, the arc of the moral
universe is long, but it bendstowards justice.
We want you to be part of thatarc, you know.

Katie (01:05:56):
Yeah, that's a good word.
All right, so maybe let me tryto summarize our conversation.
Today, we keep coming back tothis idea of Tov.
If we wanna be like a Tovchurch or a church that's
centered on goodness, then wewill need to care about justice.
Churches that nurture goodnesswill care about justice and I
think they'll orient themselvesaround what is right and true

(01:06:17):
and good.
They'll work to acknowledge andunderstand the things that get
in the way of justice, such asloyalty culture, and they'll
commit themselves to doing theright thing even when it's hard.

Mac (01:06:27):
Yeah Well, thanks for joining us today.
We hope you, you know, got alot out of this episode.
Next time we're going todiscuss another nutrient, um,
and that is service.
We're going to talk about howtangible acts of
self-sacrificial love can createa healthy church culture.

Adam (01:06:45):
So we hope you'll tune in Praxis is recorded and produced
at Crosspoint Community Church.
You can find out more about theshow and our church at
crosspointwicom.
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