Engaging the Dechurched with Compassion and Empathy

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Our episode dives into the phenomenon of de-churching, a significant shift affecting millions in America. We explore why individuals leave the church, how to engage them compassionately, and the importance of being a person of peace in their lives.

• Exploring the statistics of de-churching in America
• Discussing motivations behind leaving the church
• Highlighting the need for compassionate engagemen
• Identifying ways not to engage: guilt, shame, and fear
• Emphasizing the importance of curiosity and authentic listening
• Recognizing individuals as “people of peace”
• Paying attention to God’s work in their lives
• Offering practical steps for engagement 
• Encouraging active participation in community life 

If you're interested in learning more or have any questions, feel free to reach out!

Episode Transcript

Katie (00:02):
Welcome to Praxis, a podcast where we explore how to
practice and embody the way ofJesus in our everyday lives.
Thanks so much for taking thetime to listen.
Today we're continuing a serieson what some experts are
calling the great de-churching.
We are currently living in thesingle greatest religious shift
in American history.
Forty million adults who onceattended church no longer do so,

(00:24):
and most of that change hastaken place in the last 25 years
.
The result of this de-churchingis more than just diminished
church attendance the seismicshift is dramatically reshaping
the communities that we live in.
So why are people leaving thechurch?
What exactly are they missingout on?
What does it look like toengage the de-churched in a

(00:45):
Christ-centered way?
Answering these questions iswhat we're setting out to do.
We believe this is a discussionthat needs to take place within
our churches, because if we areto be faithful followers of
Jesus in today's landscape, wemust figure out what it looks
like to engage a de-churchedculture.
Today, we're going to look atwhat it might look like to
engage the people who havede-churched in our lives.
So let's get into it.

Josiah (01:18):
Welcome everybody.
My name is Josiah,

Katie (01:21):
I'm Katie

Mac (01:21):
and I'm Mac.

Josiah (01:23):
So, guys, it is Christmas time.
Christmas time is here.
I would love to hear what aresome of your favorite things
about Christmas.

Mac (01:40):
I enjoy the food at Christmas time, like there's all
these traditions around holidayfood in our family and it's
always so good.
So, yeah, we growing up used todo fondue on Christmas Eve,
which was just kind of like aonce-a-year type thing and super

(02:01):
interesting and it would slowthings down because everybody's
sort of like putting what theywant on the skewer and then you
have to wait for it to cook andso everybody's talking and just
slows it down.
That's fun.
So some of those types ofthings where it's like, hey,
these are traditional things wedo and it's delicious and it's
presence, it creates presencefor us, like being together,

(02:24):
that I just really enjoy.

Josiah (02:25):
Yeah.

Katie (02:27):
Yeah, food's a good one.
I've been really loving how myhouse is decorated this year.
So I'm not like a big housedecoration person, I'm not
someone who has like the falldecor and the Easter stuff and
whatever, but I just love likegetting up in the morning.
We have these like twinklinglights on the mantle and our

(02:48):
Christmas tree is up and it justfeels so cozy.
The fireplace.
I love it.
I really appreciate likewalking into a home that just
like screams Christmas cozy.

Mac (03:00):
Yeah, there's some movies we usually watch home alone at
some point during the holidays.
Growing up, I remember that one, the Christmas story where he
asked for a rifle.
Can I share a funny story?
I'm walking out the door thismorning to come here to church
and Josie's like, well, never adull moment with Griffin.

(03:21):
I'm like, oh no, what happened?
Griffin's very orally fixated.
It's sort of a characteristicmoment with Griffin.
I'm like, oh no, what happened?
Griffin's very orally fixated.
It's sort of a characteristicof Down syndrome.
So apparently it's likenegative digits today, super
cold, Like this is the first dayof the year, this winter season
, where you walk outside and ifyou breathe through your nose,
your nose hairs freeze right.
So I guess they're getting toschool.

(03:42):
And we walk him to school, getthem all bundled up and walk to
school.
He decided to stick out histongue and put it on the
stroller.
No, and it got stuck.
No way they had to take it offand he was like bleeding
everywhere.

Katie (04:02):
Oh no, oh my gosh.

Mac (04:02):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was all over his scarf.
It was like yeah, totally so.
I immediately thought of theChristmas story this morning,
because that is just such aclassic scene where he gets his
tongue stuck on a flagpole.

Katie (04:15):
My son got his tongue stuck on the stroller that scene
is going to carry a whole newlevel of meaning now every time
you watch that movie literallybleeding all over, oh that
sounds so painful.

Mac (04:28):
I'm laughing because it's just kind of like it's Griffin.

Josiah (04:31):
I remember as a kid we would like dare each other to do
that.

Katie (04:35):
Yeah.

Josiah (04:35):
Maybe we'd get stuck and never like stuck, stuck, stuck,
stuck.

Mac (04:39):
Frost, yeah, oh gosh.

Josiah (04:44):
Yeah, I like all the feels with Christmas.
I love listening to jazzyinstrumental renditions of
Christmas songs, chilling out inthe fireplace.
Honestly, my favorite moment isalways at Christmas that moment
after, okay, presents are doneand kids are playing with their

(05:10):
stuff and you sit down, eitherhave like a cup of coffee or
something, and that feeling when, like all the rush to push
towards Christmas is done andyou can just sit down and enjoy.
It Usually only lasts a littlebit of time, but when I think of
like my favorite part ofChristmas, I think of that
moment, yeah, and usually thehouse is a mess, it's not clean,

(05:32):
yet that is a good moment.
It's like, okay, it's done,like all the rush and now we
just sit.

Katie (05:38):
Yeah.

Mac (05:39):
I feel like I share a moment particularly with you,
josiah.
Every year around Christmasthat fills me up, and it's
typically at the end, the lastChristmas Eve service, whatever
that is, because it's similar tothat.
It's like all this, like youknow, energy and planning.
And then finally, there's likethe execution of the service,

(05:59):
and I just have years ofmemories of like getting through
Christmas Eve and the buildinghas sort of like you know,
people filed out and you're sortof sitting there and you're
like that was amazing yeah likewe got to worship together yeah
it's a good feeling, for sure.
Well, speaking of getting, uh,your taste buds ripped off by

(06:22):
freezing cold poles.
Um, we're in a series right nowon what experts are calling the
great de-churching.
As we said in our intro, we'reliving in the greatest religious
shift in American history.
Roughly 40 million people whoonce belonged to a church
meaning they attended church atleast once per month have now
left the church, and now they goless than a year, and we will

(06:42):
feel this at Christmastime.
I remember, just a decade ago,christmas used to be this thing
where, like, you'd have so manyvisitors, right, you had to,
like, plan, how many services dowe need to have, and so on.
Well, you know what?
Now, studies show that lessthan 50% of Americans will even
attend at Christmas time.
So there's a shift happening,there's a mass exodus happening

(07:03):
from the church, and this massexodus has all taken place in
the last 25 years and it's hard,I think, to wrap our minds
around the number.
Right, it's 40 million people.
It's hard to wrap your mindaround that, so I'm trying to
provide reference points forpeople.
This is somewhat comparable to,like, all the people living in

(07:24):
new york city, chicago and lacombined.
All right, it's wisconsin hasroughly six million people, so
this is like 6.5 wisconsin'sit's like the entire state of
california.
That's what we're talking about,so this is not an insignificant
number.
It's a mind-boggling, massiveamount of people.

(07:47):
So we're in this series becauseit feels important.
In the first episode, weattempted to name some of the
five biggest reasons why peopleare de-churching, and we talked
about things all the way fromchurch hurt to deconstruction,
to life transitions, and wetried to do this in a
non-defensive way, full ofcompassion.

(08:10):
As I've engaged those who havede-churched, listened to their
stories and their reasons forleaving.
There's so much that I feellike I can affirm the church
needs reforming, right.
We have not been shy aboutnaming some of the ways the
church needs to be reformed inthis podcast, and I just want to
say again these are people thatI deeply love and care about.

(08:31):
I sympathize with them.
So I ended up in a conversationwith someone that I absolutely
loved just last week and he andhis wife used to attend our
church and left a couple ofyears ago, and much of the
reasons for their departure Icould relate to and affirm, and
so it's just to say and remindus that those who have
de-churched, they're notignorant or stupid.

(08:54):
These are people we love andcare about.
So we want to keep that frontand center.
In our second episode, weshared some of the things we
believe those who havede-churched are missing out on,
things like being connected tothe heart and the mission of God
in the world, being part of asupportive community, a
community that's diverse,impactful and transformative and

(09:15):
we named.
Of course you can find some ofthese things in other places.
Of course you can, and ofcourse the church isn't doing
all of these things very well,of course, but the church is one
of the few places that's tryingto do all these things at the
same time, and many of thepeople I talk to that have
de-churched often admit thatthey're missing some of these
key ingredients.

(09:36):
So I want to be clear Our lastepisode wasn't an apologetic to
put the de-churched in theirplace.
That wasn't our posture, butrather we were just saying
here's why we, as people whowork on a church staff and are
giving our lives to this, here'swhy we're willing to give our
best here.
All right, and so today we'regonna wrap up the series by

(09:56):
talking about how to engagethose who have de-churched.
If 40 million people havede-churched in the last 25 years
, the 40 million people havede-churched in the last 25 years
.
The chances are fairly highthat you're going to meet with
someone who has de-churched,interact with them, or maybe you
already are in a relationshipwith someone who has de-churched
, and so our sneaking suspicionis that this is a prevalent.
This will be a prevalent thingin each one of our lives.

(10:17):
So today, we want to have aconversation about what it looks
like to relate to those whohave de-churched in ways that
are constructive and helpful,rather than hurtful and harmful.
So that's where we're headedtoday.

Josiah (10:29):
Yeah, yeah, and before we get too far into that, I want
to name this as almost like adisclaimer at the top of the
conversation that this is morethan just a topic.
I know you already alluded thatto this, mac, but these are
real people, you know they'repeople we all know and love.

(10:55):
And you know we're pretty awarethat, although most of our
audience is probably made up ofchurch goers, we know that some
of you listening fall into the Dchurch category and we want you
to hear our heart, that we havea heart that everybody who
follows Jesus could experienceauthentic church community in a
way that you know lines up withthose things Mac was mentioning

(11:16):
earlier.
And for those of us who arelistening and we are, you know,
find ourselves in church andwe're engaging this conversation
we're going to avoid broadassumptions and judgments and
embrace it with a sense ofcuriosity, but more than just
asking why, a compassionatecuriosity that actually cares

(11:39):
about knowing why, so that wecan connect with the people in
our lives.

Katie (11:45):
Yeah, and in order to talk about how to engage the
de-church, it might also behelpful to discuss how not to
engage the de-church.
So, related to what you'resaying, Josiah, we've tried to
get at this in our previousepisodes, but I think we've
shared some.
We have some shared convictionsaround what's really unhelpful
when it comes to engaging thosewho are de-churched.
What would you guys say weshould make sure not to do?

Mac (12:05):
Yeah, I agree that this should be our starting point.
I mean, many of the people Iknow who have de-churched in
part they did so because of therelational dynamics they
experienced within the churchand, unfortunately, many of the
ways Christians continue toengage them only reinforce the
reasons why they left in thefirst place.
So, again, the guy I talked tolast week this was it.
He's like here's how weexperienced Christians growing

(12:29):
up and many Christians in thechurch that's not everybody, so
there were disclaimers there butnow, when they continue to
interact with their family andwith some other Christians, they
continue to reinforce thenegative stereotypes that aren't
good.
So, yeah, I think we have toget clear on here's some of the
ways that we can engage that arehurtful and harmful and we
wanna avoid those.

(12:49):
So one thing I would say isdon't pull the levers of fear,
guilt or shame.
Don't leverage guilt, fear orshame to manipulate someone or
attempt to manipulate or coercesomeone into returning to church
.
I just find this reallyunhelpful and I'll say much of

(13:10):
what I want to contribute abouthow not to engage.
I think has a lot of parallelswith how messed up evangelism
can be, because, like some ofthe primary ways people have
been taught to share the quote,unquote good news.
It honestly doesn't sound likegood news, because they're
pulling the levers of fear,guilt and shame in order to get
someone to pray a prayer orsomething like that, and so fear

(13:32):
.
Hey, if you were to die tonight, do you know where you'd go?
Is it heaven or is it hell?
That's a fear tactic, right?
Guilt have you ever told a lie?
Well, that makes you a liar.
So the entry point is trying toconvince someone of their moral
depravity, right, and thatthey're guilty.
Shame.
God sees everything you've doneand can't bear being around you
Right Now.

(13:53):
The point is because I've heardthe counter responses well,
those things are true.
Like you're guilty, you're this.
The point isn't whether thesethings are true or not.
Of course they are.
Of course those things are true.
All have sinned and fallenshort of the glory of God, and I
know the verses.
But the point is this is nothow Jesus did evangelism right.

(14:14):
You don't see Jesus walkingaround Galilee pulling the
levers of fear, guilt and shameto coerce people and do a
decision.
He just doesn't engage peoplethat way.
These are actually the primarytools that Satan uses to keep us
in bondage.

Katie (14:26):
Yeah.

Mac (14:27):
Right.
He accuses us, leverages fearand uses shame techniques, and
it's clear in Romans 2, it's thekindness of the Lord that leads
to repentance.
So while God can and has usedsome of these I think
malformative gospelpresentations to draw himself to

(14:48):
us, that's because of how bighis grace is, not because those
tactics are the way that weshould be operating.
And my concern is that we cando the same thing when it comes
to engaging the de-churched.
So a fear tactic might involveemploying some sort of scare
tactic like hey, you're going tolose your faith if you walk
away from the church in order totry to get them to return to

(15:11):
church.
Or guilt might involveemphasizing duty or one's
obligation to be part of achurch.
You're letting God down and notbeing obedient to God by
attending a church.
Maybe shame might be somethinglike you used to be such a
strong Christian, right, what'shappened?
Some of these strategies again.

(15:34):
Some people would respond bygoing.
But they work and I would say,okay, maybe in the short run,
but I'm convinced this is justnot how God relates to us.
Rather, when it comes toengaging the de-church, we gotta
learn how to engage withcruciform love, that's,
cross-shaped love, rather thanmanipulate people using these
types of levers.

Katie (15:53):
Yeah, this makes me think of a friend I had that recently
de-churched and deconstructedso she left the church and she
walked away from faithaltogether.
And leading up to that pointshe had a series of
conversations with her pastorand church leadership about all
sorts of questions.
Questions about the Bible howdo we know the Bible's true?

(16:16):
It was written so long ago.
How do we know that Jesus iswho he really says he is?
So she had this long kind ofjourney of conversations and
questions that she didn't feellike were answered well.
But in her last conversation,what she would describe as like
what became the last straw forher, she was talking to her
pastor and finally he looked ather and said, all right, you
know, he did the Pascal's wagerthing.

(16:37):
Okay.
So he said, if I believe in Godand I'm wrong, then like,
what's the harm to me?

Mac (16:43):
Sure.

Katie (16:46):
But if you don't believe in God and it ends up, then
you're wrong.
Well then you're going to payfor it for all of eternity.
And that, to her, was thatfear-based tactic that she, in
her mind she went if that's whatyou're using to keep me here,
like I'm done, and I think toher it made it seem like well,
hey, if that's the foundationthat it's underneath this faith,
then it's not a faith that'sworth holding onto.

Mac (17:08):
So I guess.

Katie (17:09):
The unfortunate part for me in that story is that pastor
felt the need to rely onsomething.

Mac (17:17):
Came down to this sort of a wager.

Katie (17:18):
Yeah, when there's such a more beautiful invitation that
we'll get into.
But I just have tons of storieslike that of friends who grew
up in faith context with guilt,shame, fear and many, if not all
, of them have walked away fromfaith entirely.

Mac (17:32):
Yeah, I alluded to a story earlier where I was in a
conversation with a couple thispast summer who I'm close to.
I enjoy this couple.
They've de-churched.
But the conversation washappening among a group of us
and they started to name thatthey no longer attend a church
and someone else who was presentgot super reactive.
You could tell that informationupset them and the primary

(17:54):
lever they used was guilt.
They essentially sent themessage like hey, good
Christians go to church, whichof course implies you're not a
good Christian.
And so what happened?
They immediately sort of shutdown.
They stopped talking about.
You know, you could just tell itwas like sort of a conversation
, ender, and I had theopportunity to circle back to
the conversation and reopen it.

(18:14):
But it's just to say, man, ifthe way you're engaging with
someone who's not part of achurch causes them to shut down
which you may not be responsiblefor I get People can have their
own stuff that causes them toshut down, which you may not be
responsible for.
I get people can have their ownstuff that causes them to shut
down and they're responsible fortheir triggers.
But it's at least worthreflecting.
Did I contribute to thatdynamic, right?
It might not just be them.

(18:35):
Maybe you contributed.
The way you related to themwasn't conducive for safety or a
spiritual conversation, toflourish or begin.
That make sense, yeah.

Josiah (18:48):
Yeah, if you don't, if we can't find a good like, if we
can't find a way to manage ourown anxiety and those types of
conversations as churchco-workers, we end up reacting
out of that rather than beingresponsive to the Holy Spirit.
And I think that's reallyimportant because these types of
tactics don't allow people eventhe opportunity to own why they

(19:12):
left, like if we just pull onthese things, we're trying to
essentially own it for them.
We're taking the responsibilityof saying I got to get you back
, rather than being present,tilting the table, tilting the
table towards them, askingquestions and allowing them to
own why they left.

Mac (19:32):
Yeah, we sort of take it on ourselves.
The bullseye here is Jesus, youguys.
I mean Jesus gives a mass,gives us a masterclass and what
it looks like to interact with awide variety of people that are
spiritually all over the place,and, by and large, you don't
see people turtling up orshutting down because of the way
Jesus is talking to them.
It's actually the exactopposite.
They're seeking him out,they're wanting to talk with him

(19:54):
, they're wanting to be with him, right?
So there's somethingsignificantly wrong if we're
leveraging things that areproducing the exact opposite.

Katie (20:04):
While using the name Jesus.

Mac (20:05):
Yeah, and betraying the way of Jesus in the process.
So, that's the first thing Iwould say.
Again, lots of connections andmaybe we could do an episode on
this in the future just aroundevangelism in general and what
that looks like.
But I think pulling the leversof fear, guilt and shame do
horrendous work when it comes toentering this conversational
space.

Katie (20:23):
Yeah, yeah.
Maybe another tactic that doesnot do good work is being
argumentative.
Whatever, I totally disagreewith you.
I mean, I'm a trained lawyer,so this one could be really
tough for me.
But I don't think it's just me.
I think it's kind of humannature, anytime we encounter
someone who thinks differentlythan us, to want to change their
minds.
And I think one of the waysthat we try to change people's

(20:45):
minds is through arguments andfacts and reason.
I remember being a kid my dadwould sometimes take me to these
like debates.

Mac (20:53):
Oh, I can totally see him doing that.
Oh my gosh.

Katie (20:55):
Loves that stuff.
Like seven day creation, likeone person would be debating for
it and one would be against itand he loved it.
It was fine.
I enjoyed spending time with mydad, but but I, of all the
debates I've ever witnessed, Imean that stuff.

Mac (21:08):
My dad took me to baseball games.

Katie (21:12):
I'm like seven.
We're like arguing, debating onthe way home, like
deconstructing the arguments.
But no, I think of all thearguments I've ever witnessed,
whether it's like a debate orjust in normal life, I can't
recall a single time I've everseen someone change their mind
as a result of an argument.
Right, can you guys?
I think it doesn't reallyhappen.
As much as we'd like to thinkdifferently.

(21:32):
It's not often that someonegoes oh okay, I see what you
mean.
I guess I'll join your churchand begin to follow Jesus or
whatever.
That doesn't happen.
And like you said, mac, weneedn't look further than Jesus.
If we look in the Gospels,jesus didn't argue with people,
just like.
He didn't use fear, guilt andshame, and I think the reason is
because he didn't try tocontrol people, like he gave
them a lot of freedom to thinkwhat they wanted to think and

(21:53):
feel what they wanted to feel.
He respected their agency andtheir autonomy.
So again, I think it'simportant to keep our eyes on
Jesus and go well, how did he dothis?
And when it can feel sotempting to really get like
sucked into needing to doubledown and prove our point, just
don't do it.
It doesn't get you anywhere.
One caveat would be I'm notsaying don't be prepared with

(22:17):
answers when questions comeRight First.
Peter 3.15 says always beprepared to give an answer to
everyone who asks you to givethe reason for the hope that you
have, but do this withgentleness and respect.
So those are key words therefor me gentleness and respect.
I think that will get us a lotfarther than being argumentative
.

Mac (22:37):
Yeah, those are posture words, right, and it's hard,
like let's just say, okay, thisis hard.
And it's hard Like let's justsay, okay, this is hard, and
partly because tapping into yourfield, josiah, I mean, you're
in school for psychology and soon.
But when someone disagrees withus, we often experience that as
a threat, right.
So someone challenges you orsays, oh, I don't see it that

(22:59):
way, and what happens is itactivates our amygdala, which is
responsible for processingthose threats, and we go into
fight or flight.
And so when we engage withsomeone who's different than us,
we experience it as a threatand we respond like we're
face-to-face with a grizzly bear, but in fact you're just being
faced with somebody who thinksor believes differently.
You're just in a conversation.

(23:20):
So instead of remaining calm orrelationally connected, we get
big and loud or we run away orwhatever.
And so there is some work to do.
I think, kind of piggybacking onwhat you said, katie, is just
to recognize hey, there's somework I have to do, probably in
my own body, to remain calm andsort of lower the volume on.

(23:42):
Hey, I'm not under attack here,I'm not being threatened here.
Take a few deep breaths, youknow, and then there's probably
some work we have to do toregain our prefrontal cortex.
You know, tricia Taylor oftensays hey, when I get curious,
when I get furious, I getcurious, in other words like
orient with questions, and thatshifts us from being emotionally

(24:06):
reactive to like cognitivelyengaged, and I really like what
you said, that people usuallydon't respond by being put in
their place intellectually, likeyou can win the debate and
actually lose the exchange ifthat makes sense.

Josiah (24:21):
Yeah, yeah.
I think that often we argue outof our own insecurities often
so I think often when we engagethese things from an
argumentative posture generally,we're sort of afraid to let
someone in our lives believedifferently than us.

(24:41):
It takes some gooddifferentiation in order to do
that well and honestly.
That will go well beyond justengaging the D church.
It'll probably help in a lot offamily relationships and things
as well, Totally being able todisagree with someone and walk
away and having it be okay.

Mac (25:00):
Go back and listen to the EQ series we did on emotional
intelligence and maturity,because it's impossible to do
this work without some degree ofemotional maturity and
self-regulation Right.

Josiah (25:14):
Yeah, yeah.
Another one I would name isdon't be judgmental or
dismissive.
I was reflecting on this.
I think this is actually a verytricky one for people,
especially if you've grown up inan environment where you were
raised to dismiss people.
What do you mean by that?

(25:37):
So when someone is in andthey're in the church and they
adhere to the belief systemsthat you believe within the
group, then they're in, but thesecond they start questioning
that it becomes a threat to thegroup.
The group and you can watch,like as a kid.

(26:01):
You could watch the groupbehavior start to orient to
these people differently.
Rather than welcoming questionsand saying let's talk about it,
or let's sit in the tensionLike, hey, I have questions too,
let's sit with this together,love to talk with you more about
it.
It became, oh, they'rebacksliding, we need to pray for
them, and a lot of those issuesend up becoming dismissed

(26:24):
rather than attended to.

Mac (26:28):
So, instead of creating like a hospitable space to
remain present to those who havequestions or whatever they're
questioning, it's almost likethe group, out of a sense of
threat, helps them hit the ejectbutton through rejection and
judgment.

Josiah (26:42):
Yeah, and I think for the eject button through
rejection and judgment, yeah,yeah, and I think for the most
part, like that was encouraged.
I mean maybe not like overtly,but yeah, as I reflect on, and
you know I don't want to put toomuch blame on my environment,
but I just remembered thatjudgment, that judgmental

(27:04):
posture towards people was verymuch ingrained in me and it took
many years, many, many years,and you can still feel it bubble
up.
I'm not going to blame it all onthe upbringing.
I think all of us have atendency to do that.
You look at other people who doit differently, believe
something differently, and youstart dismissing them for being
different.
So I think it takes a lot ofmaturity to reach a point where

(27:26):
you aren't relating to peoplethat way.
But I think that where the youknow, I guess where the rubber
meets the road is, we're nevergoing to grow as a community or
as people if we can't learn tolisten and take seriously the
experiences of people who haveleft and if you find yourself

(27:47):
dismissing them, dismissingthose experiences before you
actually even hear them out,because you think you know
better we're not going to grow,Like our church community isn't
going to grow.
I mean, you know, the reality is.
We talked about it was it lastweek or the first part of this
series where, in reality, a lotof the reasons why people have

(28:10):
left are very legitimate.
They're things that were verylegitimate experiences.

Mac (28:18):
And they highlight things we need to attend to as a church
.

Josiah (28:22):
It ends up thwarting our whole process of growth as a
church community to not learn togrow in these areas.

Mac (28:27):
To the degree we dismiss someone's experience in the
church, we actually shortcircuit our own transformation
because it might be highlightingan area that we need to attend
to.
There's a great book I wouldrecommend when it comes to this
point you're making, on notbeing judgmental or dismissive.
It was written by Greg Boyd,called Repenting of Religion.

Katie (28:53):
You had me read that, if you remember, when we came back
to Crosspoint in 2019.
Did you read it, I did you and Ijust started dialoguing when I
came back to Crosspoint and itwas kind of along these lines to
some extent and you recommendedI read Rep.
I did you and I just starteddialoguing when I came back to
Crosspoint and it was kind ofalong these lines to some extent
.
And you recommended I readRepenting of Religion, and I
just came across some notes theother day that I had taken from
that book.
It was so good.

Mac (29:11):
Yeah.

Katie (29:11):
It was so helpful and so good.

Mac (29:14):
Yeah, greg.
In that book he argues that ourtendency to judge people is
actually tied up with the veryfirst sin in Genesis 3, where
we're sort of grasping for thetree of the knowledge of good
and evil.
Like we get to determine ordiscern what is good and evil,
and when we do that we'restanding in judgment over other

(29:35):
people.
So there's a posture ofsuperiority, like we're
elevating ourselves above people.
But we're actually treading onGod's territory too, because God
is the one who judges, not us.
We're playing God in thosemoments and the biggest takeaway
or thread is you can't beloving and judging people at the
same time.

(29:57):
Judgment is all about ascribingworth to yourself at cost to
another person.
You're evaluating them in a waythat makes you feel superior.
So that's the work judgmentdoes.
You're subtracting from theworth of someone else in order
to add worth to yourself, andcruciform, calvary-like love is

(30:19):
the exact opposite of that.
It's actually ascribing worthto another person at cost to
yourself.
So I really encourage you topick up the book Repenting of
Religion.
It's a little longer read.

Katie (30:32):
It's really good, is it?
If I remember correctly, no,it's not Okay.

Mac (30:36):
I have like a measure system that I use when I'm like
recommending a book, like kindof like a numerical system of
maybe one to four of.
One is super easy.
Two is maybe a little bitharder, but still written at a
lay level all the way to four,which is like you better be
ready to put your thinking capon.
I'd probably put this at like a1.5.

Katie (30:53):
Well, I think I just had a baby at that point.

Mac (30:57):
It's pretty accessible.

Katie (30:59):
No, I like how you explained it, because I could
hear a response to that beingwell, we're supposed to be
discerning and know thedifference between good and evil
, but I hear you fleshing outthe difference between being
discerning about what's good andfrom God and not from God, and
judging people and ascribingworth to them.

Mac (31:17):
And of course, he'll go into all of those key passages
where we learn to distinguishbetween discernment and judgment
.
One is forbidden, the other onewe actually need to do in our
everyday life.

Josiah (31:27):
So yeah, One thing that I think is worth noting before
we move, before we move on tothis point, is you may be
thinking I was thinking the samething, katie.
The uh, the response from somepeople might be well discerning
is an important part of ourspiritual development.
Being discerning and wise andalso like being able to judge
what's right and wrong formyself and to be able to follow

(31:49):
Jesus.
All of that's great.
So let's say you havedetermined that this person is
making the wrong choice fortheir life.
Well, congratulations.
You have just identifiedsomeone that you should be
pursuing in relationship becausethat's what Jesus did.
Yep, identified someone thatyou should be pursuing in
relationship because that's whatJesus did when he got flack for
spending all of his time withthe quote-unquote sinners.
What was his response?

(32:11):
He said I didn't come for thehealthy, I came for the sick.
So if you've identified thesepeople as like quote-unquote
wrong, well then that means youshould probably move toward them
.

Mac (32:24):
That's absolutely right and having had this conversation
with a lot of people, don't usediscernment to dismiss the
larger point, which is don't bejudgmental and dismissive.

Josiah (32:36):
You know what I mean.
It's like oh my goodness.

Mac (32:38):
Yes, of course there's room for discernment and I can
provide some nuance to go.
This is what that looks like ina healthy way, but don't hide
behind.
Oh, of course there's room fordiscernment and I can provide
some nuance to go.
This is what that looks like ina healthy way, but don't hide
behind.
Oh, we need to be discerning inorder to continue to practice
judgmentalism and dismissiveness.
All right, and there?

Josiah (32:53):
are a large handful of passages from Jesus that would
back up your point, right, okay,okay.
So we talked a lot about whatwe shouldn't do, and we do want
to avoid all of those things.
They reduce safety andrelational connection, and all
of these things that keep usfrom actually being in

(33:15):
relationship with people.
So what does it look like then?
What can we actively do toembody the way of Jesus towards
people who have de-churched?
What are some things that wecan do on the positive note?

Mac (33:31):
The first thing I would say is you have to discern.
Going back to that word discern, you have to discern their
degree of openness.
This is like step one, free ofopenness.
This is like step one.
There was a guy named EdwinFriedman and he was a rabbi.
He's since passed, but he was arabbi and an expert in family
systems theory, wrote severalbooks, did a lot of

(33:57):
organizational consultation andleadership and so on, but he
wrote a short little book calledFriedman's Fables.
Little book called Friedman'sFables.
Okay, and it's a collection ofthese short fictional stories,
sort of these allegorical talesthat get at family systems
theory and sort of patterns ofhow people relate and behave.
It's a really fun read.
I read this book maybe four orfive years ago on spring break,

(34:20):
on a spring break, and there wasthis paragraph right at the
beginning that I've read.
I've pulled this book off theshelf and I've probably read it
about 30 or 40 times.

Josiah (34:28):
Wow.

Mac (34:30):
And I want to read it to you.
Okay.

Katie (34:32):
The whole.
Thing.

Mac (34:33):
This is just paragraph, not the entire book.
Here's what he says.
He says the colossalmisunderstanding of our time is
the assumption that insight willwork with people who are
unmotivated to change.
Communication does not dependon syntax or eloquence, or

(34:53):
rhetoric or articulation, but onthe emotional context in which
the message is being heard, inwhich the message is being heard
.
People can only hear you whenthey are moving toward you and
they are not likely to when yourwords are pursuing them.
Even the choicest words losetheir power when they are used

(35:14):
to overpower.
Attitudes are the real figuresof speech.
This will help you in marriage.

Katie (35:25):
This will help you in parenting.
Parenting, yeah, older children, yep.

Mac (35:28):
People can only hear you when they're moving toward you.
That's like the key insightDon't matter how smart, how
eloquent, how articulate you are, how airtight your argument is,
articulate you are, howairtight your argument is,
they're only going to hear it ifthey're moving toward you.
Man, I can't tell you how manytimes I've made the mistake of

(35:50):
assuming I can convince someonewho's moving away from me.
Oh, yeah, right.
And it goes back to your point,katie, which is like hey, I can
lawyer up in this moment andgive an airtight argument that
should bring you to yourintellectual knees, but if I, if
they're not open to you, it's afruitless endeavor and you
actually win.
You lose the exchange eventhough you win the argument.

(36:11):
Okay, jesus already knew this.
Edwin Friedman, as brilliant ashe is, is not even close to as
brilliant as Jesus.
He's just elucidating or namingsomething Jesus is already
acutely aware of.
Okay, this is why, to me, thisis my opinion.
But in Luke 10, this is why,when Jesus sends out the 72, he

(36:33):
told them to look for persons ofpeace.
Okay, in Luke 10, he says, whenyou enter a house, first say
peace to this house, which was acustomary Jewish greeting
shalom to this home.
That's what Jesus is tellingthem to do.
If anyone who promotes peace isthere, your peace will rest on
them.
If not, it will return to you.

(36:53):
If your peace is reciprocal, hesays stay there, eating and
drinking whatever they give you.
Do not move around from houseto house.
So Jesus is instructing these72.
You're going to go out to thesevillages and you're going to
look for people at peace.
How are you going to do that?
Well, you're going to declarepeace, peace on this home.
And if they reciprocate peace,well then you're going to stay

(37:16):
there and eat and enjoy theirhospitality.
Right, go where the grace is.
If someone does not reciprocatepeace, well then move on.
And I think it's the same withus.
This is the first step, itseems to me, and it's a crucial
one is asking is this person whohas de-churched, a person of
peace?
Are they open to you?

(37:37):
Are they moving toward you?
Because, if not, no amount ofdialogue or insight that you
provide will work with peoplewho are unmotivated to change
right Now I'm not saying becauseI've shared this person of
peace concept with people manytimes I'm like so if someone's
not a person of peace, do youjust like reject them?

(37:57):
No, you do what Jesus did.
You were just saying how didJesus relate to people?
So you continue to stay presentto there and wait for that
posture to change, right?

Katie (38:06):
Yeah, yeah.
This again makes me think ofthat friend I was talking about
earlier when we were dialoguingabout her journey out of the
church and out of faithaltogether.
She brought up a number ofthings that I thought, man, I
would love to talk more aboutthat.
I thought, man, I would love totalk more about that.
You know, we've been talkingabout deconstruction as a church
for a while and I had so manygood thoughts I felt like I

(38:26):
would have loved to share.
But I kind of put no, notzingers Like genuinely just
thoughtful dialogue.
I would have loved to have somemore dialogue, some deeper
dialogue with her and be able toshare some of my own thoughts
in a loving way, but I maybe puta couple of feelers out there
and she wasn't really open tothat.
Like she wanted to tell me herstory and that was it.

(38:46):
There was no openness and so,you know, in that moment I just
kind of had to back off, like itwouldn't have done any good to
continue to try to engage inconversation when she just
really wasn't looking for that.
So, yeah, I agree, I don'tthink we want to chase after
people or badger them.
It just backfires.

Mac (39:05):
My therapist calls those test balloons.
By the way, like you're gettingthe way you discern a person of
peace like Jesus is greetingshalom to this home.
It's a test balloon, right.
You float it their directionand if they pop it you go oh,
they're not interested.
Yep, right, what would you say,josiah?
Anything?

Josiah (39:22):
Yeah, I just like on a positive side.
You'll know when someone isopen.
You know I played in twosoftball leagues this summer.
Normally I just do the one wehave like a church men's summer.
Normally I just do the one wehave like a church men's league.
But I decided to join anotherone from someone at the gym.
It was a co-ed league.

(39:43):
Anyway, got to buildrelationships with lots of
people that I would not have.
But I can't tell you I lostcount of the amount of
conversations where people wereclearly curious and open to
discussing their issues withchurch or just their issues

(40:04):
about why they don't go, thingslike that.
And there was this couple Ideveloped a friendship with and
I can't tell you the amount ofconversations we had where they
were clearly open to wanting tohave the conversations and my
role was not convincing oranything, it was just asking
questions and you can tell whenthere's the openness there.

(40:26):
So you're discerning a momentwhen clearly there was an
openness.
You had a test balloon, you'relike okay they're not ready for
that, but there are going to belots of opportunities if you
look for them, where people areclearly open.

Mac (40:40):
Yeah, this will save you from some frustration along the
way if you just start with going.
Is this person open to me orspiritually seeking?
I have two people that are.
They actually know each otherand they're both have
de-churched.
One is a person of peace, in myopinion.
The other one isn't Kind oflike you're describing the one

(41:03):
who is very open.
They love talking about it andasking questions and you can
tell they're genuinely curiousand it's just this different
vibe altogether.
What if we filled out for amoment?
I would say this is one facethat a person who's not open can
take Like.
One way it can manifest isantagonism and argumentation.

(41:27):
So with this other guy that hasde-churched, love and care
about him a ton every time itcomes up, he just wants to
debate, he just wants to debate,he just wants to argue, and
I've learned that's actuallycounterproductive because you're
not, we're not havingintellectual dialogue with a
genuine desire to orient towardstruth or openness or discovery.

(41:48):
It's just have an argument.
So maybe to summarize, what I'mtrying to get at is Josiah, yes
, I do think you'll be able totell when someone's open.
I think that when someone isclosed, it can take a variety of
forms, one of which is debateand antagonism.

Josiah (42:04):
All right.
So once you have discerned adegree of openness and someone
is, the next step is simply justto get curious about why I
think of this book I readrecently I actually keep it on
my desk because it has some coolreferences.
But uh, it's called the sixconversations, um, by Heather
Holloman.
She's a college professor andshe writes in the book about how

(42:26):
important it is for people offaith to learn how to have good
conversations with people, andshe actually teaches her
students um on how to do this,and one of the things she
references is a great way todisarm someone who is who
believes something verydrastically different than you,

(42:47):
and they're adamant about it.
It's just to ask them, like Iwould be so curious to know the
story as to how you arrived atthat conclusion, like I would
love to hear the story becausethat's fascinating to me,
because I don't necessarilyagree with that.
You must have a lot of goodreasons to believe that, so that
there's this disarming postureof like actually wanting to know

(43:09):
why someone is the way they are, and in this context I think
it's the same thing.
You can lower defenses a lot byjust simply getting curious.
It keeps conversations fromturning into arguments and
actually allows you to learnsomething, and learn something
about their story.

(43:30):
Mentioned this multiple timesin this episode already, but the
act of curiosity and askingquestions is a way to you know,
get to know someone, but beyondthat, also like building
connection with them.

Katie (43:47):
Yeah, I feel like that's good advice.
I mean this a lot of the stuffapplies outside of just even the
church or de-churching context.
This is just good ways torelate to people in a Jesus way.
I mean talk about kind of makingassumptions about people, think
about politics oh, you votethis way, so therefore you must
X, y and Z Like it's such, it'sso ingrained in us, I think to
want to make assumptions and tokind of put people in a box.

(44:08):
Oh, you walked away from faith,so you might, you must think
this, this and this.
Or oh, you walked away from achurch.
Well, therefore you must not bea strong Christian, and so I
think it's such a good reminderto maintain that curious posture
and for some reason, it feelslike sometimes within the church
it can be extra hard for us.

Mac (44:24):
Yeah.
Well, and this is the heartbehind that first episode in
this series is we wanted to makesure we didn't lump everybody
who's de-churched into the sameprofile or category.
Right?
Not everybody has left for theexact same reason.
So when we talk about gettingcurious to your point, Josiah,
why did they de-church?
What were their reasons forde-churching?

(44:46):
What experience played a factorin that decision?
What was their upbringing?
What was their story?
And as you listen to people'sstories and reasons for leaving
the church, there will likely besome things bubbling up that
are worth affirming.
Okay, Perhaps it's how theywere treated by a pastor.
That was really negative.

(45:07):
You're going to want to.
If they were mistreated, it'simportant to say that is
mistreated, that's not right.
Right, Perhaps it was anauthoritarian dogmatism around
belief or behavior.
Wow, yeah, yeah, that's not howI, yeah, that's not what I
would want you to experience.
Perhaps it's how they fusepolitics with Jesus.
Many churches I know I meangoing back to this guy I was

(45:29):
talking to last week those werethe two variables he named for
their.
They were raised in a homewhere everything was about you
have to believe this and if youdon't, you're bad news.
And it was very fused with acertain partisan camp and now
that they're no longer there,they feel rejected by that and

(45:50):
it's like, wow, well, yeah, thatis destructive, that's not
healthy.
So I had to affirm that, but go, but there are other ways of
orienting, right, yeah?

Katie (46:01):
Yeah.
So I guess the steps we'venamed so far is discerning
someone's degree of openness.
That's a really important point.
Is this person a person ofpeace, as you described it, mac?
And then, once you've done that, get curious about the why
behind their de-churching andtheir story.
The third step I would name ispay attention to God's activity

(46:23):
in their life.
So if you've been at Crosspointfor any length of time, you know
that one of the things webelieve is that God is always
present and at work.
He's always present and at work.
It's something we talk about alot, it's a key tenant of
missional theology and it's anidea that's all over scripture.
Philippians 2.13 says for it isGod who works in you to will

(46:44):
and to act in order to fulfillhis good purpose.
John 5.17 says my father'salways at work to this very day,
and I too am working.
I think these verses show us howGod is actively working within
individuals to shape theirdesire and actions to align with
his mission and purposes, andhe's just continually involved
and he's present in our lives,working towards redemption, if

(47:05):
we're open to it.
So if we believe that, ifthat's our starting point, we
believe that God is present andat work and that he created
everybody.
Right, like that's our startingpoint.
Every person was created by God, so if God created everyone, he
knows how to work in their lifeand extend invitations to them.
So rather than us trying toforce something or working
overtime to convince them ofsomething, maybe it's worth

(47:28):
taking a step back and justtrying to pay attention to where
God is at work instead.
Maybe there's a major lifetransition that they're
grappling with, or maybesomething is happening in their
think.
It's really important that wehave that lens.

(48:00):
God created this person.
He loves them.
He's at work.
Where is he at work in theirlife?

Mac (48:05):
This is a game changer to go.
Okay, I'm going to discern ifthis is a person of peace.
If they're open to me, I'mgoing to get curious about their
story and I'm going to bepresent long enough to be able
to discern what God is doing, tobecome a divine detective.
What is God doing in thisperson's life?
Because God's been activethroughout the duration of their
life.
I'm just showing up now, so myjob is to join the work God is

(48:26):
doing, because that's what'sgoing to be most effective and
I'll just say this takes thepressure off.
When I first experienced, likehere's how to do evangelism, it
was all about me acting uponsomeone else to get them to a
predetermined place, and I tookit seriously.
Like you guys, my senior yearof high school, I was voted most

(48:50):
likely to be a televangelist.
Oh gosh Okay, so I'm notassuming anybody from high
school is listening to this butif you did, I want to publicly
apologize.
I was like an evangelisticbulldozer.
I thought it was my job andpart of it was rooted in
over-responsibility to geteverybody saved.

Katie (49:09):
Yeah.

Mac (49:09):
Yeah, and it turned me into this crazy person that would
force conversations and sort ofapply pressure in ways that were
so counterproductive.
And I'm not saying that wedon't have a role to play, I'm
saying it's a participatory oneand it really takes the pressure
off.
My approach with people hasdrastically changed, as I just

(49:30):
realized.
I get to be present to you andI'm trying to have my antenna up
to what is God doing?
Where is God at work in thisperson's life?
And then, if I notice it, Italk about it with them and that
just takes the pressure off,you know.

Katie (49:44):
It does.
Yeah, I kind of grew upthinking the same way, Like I
kind of had to have my stumpspeech so to speak.
Is that a reference you guysunderstand In politics, like a
politician does a stump speechOkay.
Sometimes a stump speech Okay.

Mac (49:54):
Sometimes I say things and you guys look at me like what
are you talking about?

Katie (49:57):
I know what a stump speech is Thanks, katie, but I
think I had a different responsethan you, mac.

Mac (50:03):
I think because it felt so or a sales pitch might be
another way to put it Sure.

Katie (50:06):
Yep, yep, that's a good one, but because it felt awkward
to me.
So I think there were a lot oftimes when I just didn't do it.
It was like, yeah, that feelsreally weird, and so I'm just
not going to do that.

Mac (50:19):
And then did you feel guilty afterwards Because you're
like oh, I didn't do what I wassupposed to do.
Yeah, probably A good Christianwould do.

Katie (50:23):
Yeah, I'm not a good Christian, yep, yep, yeah, yeah.
And like I remember in collegethere like a bad Christian for
not wanting to go on that trip.

(50:44):
But then, once I started tolearn this, it was a major light
bulb moment for me.
It was like it felt like, oh, Ican do that.

Mac (50:49):
Yeah, I find that the best place to do evangelism is on a
beach, wearing a bathing suit,using a tract.
I'm just saying that's been themost effective experience.

Josiah (51:05):
Depends on the outfit.
Yeah, you just have to accept,and I have to accept this often
as a parent, and I have toaccept this often as a parent,
as a leader within anorganization, as someone who
cares about the people around meis I am not the primary agent

(51:26):
of change in other people'slives, and I have to accept that
and I can experience more peaceas I accept that further,
because my role is, as you'resaying, discerning what God is
up to.
And how often do we get aheadof what God might be doing or

(51:47):
completely miss what God isdoing in someone else's life
because we're convinced we knowwhat's best for them?

Mac (51:54):
Yep, we assume too much responsibility and we assume we
know more than we actually do.
So let's say hey, let's sayyou're okay, this person's open
to me.
Um, they're, they're open to meand I've I've formed a
relationship.
I've gotten curious.
There's safety there and Inoticed God doing something in

(52:14):
their life.
I think I noticed God at workin their life in some way.
Then what, what do you do?

Josiah (52:19):
Yeah, well then you just , you simply just invite them to
say yes to what God is doing,and that can look different
depending on the situation.
I mentioned this couple earlierthat I became friends with over
the summer and there was amoment we were sitting down and
they were on either side of mehaving this sort of argument

(52:42):
about church and about God andabout what they should do, and
it became very clear what Godwas doing in them and it was
very easy to name like hey, myencouragement to you guys is
like I think you guys just needto, like, try a church and go,
because it seems like it's whatyou want, but nothing has met

(53:08):
your standards.
So the challenge for them wasjust like pick one and go See
what happens, yeah, right.
So the point is it's not goingto look like that.
As much as we want it to be atrack that you hand out on a
beach with a three-step plan toget someone back to church.
It's not going to be that andyou're going to have to do the

(53:30):
work of discerning what God isdoing and be willing to
challenge, or maybe it's justinvite more interrelationship to
continue the conversation.
But tilting the table back tothem to say yes to what God is
doing is important.

Mac (53:47):
Yeah, and maybe what I would say is to give an
imagination of what that cansound like.
Sometimes I use the word submithey, can I submit something to
you?
Or hey, I think I might benoticing something.
God seems to be doing this.
What do you think about that?
So it's not like, hey, adeclaration.
I guess what I'm getting at isI'm not declaring here's what

(54:09):
God's doing in your life.
It's more of a hey, I think Imight be up to something here.
This is what I'm noticing.
What do you think about that?
So even the way you're invitingthem to notice is different.
Right, so put it all together,okay, like, put these components
together, because it reallywill equip you in your

(54:29):
relationships both with peoplewho don't know or follow Jesus
or those who have de-churched,identify or discern.
Are they open to me?
Are they a person of peace?
Go where the grace is right.
If you're channeling lots ofenergy or putting a lot of time
into someone who is, you'repursuing someone who's walking
away from you.
That's going to becounterproductive, okay.
Step two if this person is opento you, get curious, ask

(54:53):
questions, learn their story andso on, and then become a divine
detective.
While you're getting curious.
You're not just listening totheir story, you're also trying
to pay attention to what God'sdoing in their life, and if you
notice something, you submit itto them and invite them to
submit to it as well.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, this is the roadmap thatI use when I'm engaging people,

(55:15):
both who I far from I sense arefar from Jesus or don't follow
Jesus, as well as those who havewalked away from the church.

Josiah (55:22):
Are they?

Mac (55:22):
open to me.
Am I orienting with a postureof kindness and gentleness and
curiosity, and what do I noticeGod doing in their life, and can
I name that with them andinvite them to respond to it?

Katie (55:35):
Yeah, two, I guess two things that stick out to me as
we're talking that, two thingsthat I would say maybe are
required to do this well, areboth courage and humility.
Right, like it takes somecourage to approach people and,
um, get curious and askquestions and even to put those
test spoons out there.
I know for me sometimes thatcan really require courage If

(55:56):
it's someone who I feel likeit'd just be easier to just talk
about the weather or whatever,but I feel like God might be
doing something here and hewants me to go there, but yet it
also acquires some humilityknowing that we don't
necessarily have the right thingto say.
To get them over the finish line.

Mac (56:13):
Maybe what this is coming to me in the moment, so I'm just
going to name it, but I thinkit could potentially equip some
of our listeners.
The other thing I might do whenit comes to discerning what
God's doing and inviting them torespond is oftentimes people
are sitting on like really badnews about God, about themselves
, about life or something, andso one of the ways I often will

(56:37):
orient to that is just name it.
Hey man, it sounds like you'rebelieving this about God, or
your life, or yourself, or yourcircumstances or whatever, and
that's.
I think I'd feel the same way ifI believe that too.
But I want to just declare that, as I know Jesus and that is
not Jesus's heart towards you.
So I'm sort of like takingtheir bad news and like
summarizing it for them and thensort of pivoting and going.

(56:59):
But I think this is declaringthis is the heart of God or the
heart of Jesus towards you in away that, like oftentimes,
prompts more questions orseeking or openness.

Josiah (57:12):
Yeah, yeah.
You'd be surprised at how thoseconversations can turn to when
someone names like this leadermessed up or this church member
did this and just name like yeah, I don't think God liked that.
I don't think God liked iteither.
Yeah, that that person did thatto you Right Just helps shift.
It draws attention to the factthat, like I think there's an

(57:34):
internal, there's somethinginternal that was like blaming
God for this, and like God'sjust as upset about it as you
are.

Mac (57:41):
Yeah, all right.
Well, you guys, it is practicetime.
You know we try to end everyepisode with getting really
practical.
Came across this quote recentlyby a guy named James Cone
Theological concepts havemeaning only as they are
translated into theologicalpraxis, that is, the church
living in the world on the basisof what it proclaims.

(58:03):
So we want to end every episodegoing okay, we've talked about
a whole lot, but what can we doto actually embody our faith
together?
What would you guys say?

Katie (58:12):
Yeah, I think it starts with prayer.
No surprise.
I think it's really importantto just pray and discern what
God is up to in the lives ofpeople around you, like asking
the Holy Spirit to bring peopleto mind.
God might have someone in mindthat he wants you to connect
with that you haven't evenconsidered One thing.
In our year-long leadershipintensives, one exercise that we

(58:34):
have everyone do is to go on aprayer walk around the
neighborhood and before they dothat, we ask them to make a map
of the houses that live in yourneighborhood close to you and
put everyone by name in thoselittle houses and then walk
around and just pray for them byname as you walk.
And I remember doing thatexercise for the first time and

(58:55):
it was really impactful andmeaningful for me and it just
helped me bring like a new levelof intentionality and awareness
to how God might be working inthe lives of those around me.
So, yeah, just ask God for eyesto help you notice who those
people of peace are.

Mac (59:11):
Yeah, I've had some weird scenarios with this not to scare
our listeners scenarios withthis, not to scare our listeners
but I've gotten into the habitof, at the end of maybe spending
time with Jesus, just creatingsome open space to listen and
say, Jesus, is there anybody youwant me to pray for or be
intentional with?
And sometimes really randompeople will come to mind.

(59:32):
I remember a few years agosomeone came to mind that I went
to grad school with that Ihadn't talked to in like years
and I just felt this strongimpression to reach out and it
felt awkward.
So I texted I'm like, hey, Iknow it's been probably like 10,
15 years since we've talked,but I was just praying and you
came to mind hope you're doingwell.
Responds right away.

(59:53):
This is a godsend.
I have been consumed withalcohol.

Katie (01:00:02):
Nobody knows about it.

Mac (01:00:07):
Can we talk?
So it's just to say and I'vehad a number of those where it's
just like, oh, all of a suddenthis person is coming to mind
and it really like, feels likein a way outside of me, and then
I'll reach out and it's like,oh, I literally am on my way to
the hospital with this thing.
Thank you so much.
Will you pray with me?
Like just stuff like that.

Katie (01:00:22):
That happened to me last night actually.

Mac (01:00:23):
It happened last night, yeah.

Katie (01:00:24):
Someone came to mind and I just texted them saying, hey,
you're in my mind, Like I'm justpraying for you.

Mac (01:00:38):
And she said, hey, thanks, today and it's the first
anniversary of her death and,wow, we're having a hard time
with it.

Josiah (01:00:41):
Yeah, so it's just to say when you say pray, pray like
ask god to help you identifypeople that you're supposed to
invest in, yeah, yeah, um,practice two, practice practice
number two would just be, then,authentically engaged with those
people around you, like, bewilling to build genuine
relationships without any end inmind.

(01:01:03):
Just move towards people whoare clearly open to you and, you
know, keep your antennas up forwhat the Holy Spirit is up to,
like we were already sayingpraying and discerning, you know
, and practice naming some ofthat grace and truth that we
were talking about, like beingwilling to point out when

(01:01:26):
there's you know, when there'slike a belief about God that we
would call bad news, Likepractice being willing to do
that and you know, sort of justlike stay in the game, I guess.

Mac (01:01:41):
I think my third, the third practice, one that I would
share, is kind of heavy hitting,but it maybe encapsulates this
entire series and why we're evenhaving to deal with this.
So I'll just name the practiceLean into the rhythms of your
church community, like actuallyfollow the way of Jesus with and

(01:02:03):
alongside other people.
Okay, one of the big things orthemes I'm hearing from people
of D church is that the churchisn't doing what it says it's
all about.
Yeah, it's all about.
It's about following Jesus, butthe church I experienced
doesn't look or sound or feelanything like Jesus.

(01:02:24):
Now, in fairness, no churchwill ever arrive.
We're all works and so there isa sense of like well, that's
all of us, and I'm not usingthat as an, but we also ought to
not use that as an excuse.
But I think there's moretransformation that we can
experience in the church.
I think God wants more for us,and so the best thing you can do

(01:02:47):
for the people around you is toactually live a compelling life
as a follower of Jesus.
If you want people to followJesus, then show them what it
looks like in communityconnected to a church.
Put your money where your mouthis.
Invest in a community.
Live out the five tenets ofcommunity we talked about in our
last episode.

(01:03:07):
Live out the way of Jesus in away that's compelling.
That is the best apologetic, soto speak, that we can give
people who have de-churched.
They're missing out onsomething that they see being
lived out in a unique way.

Josiah (01:03:20):
Yeah, yeah, Ideally you're inviting someone into the
rhythms you already do soyou're not telling someone you
better go to church, right,right, it's.
Come along with me, like I lovebeing here.
This is what I do.
How much easier that is toinvite someone to church when
you're invested in it than youknow guilting a family member to

(01:03:42):
go back to church when theyhaven't been there in a while.

Mac (01:03:45):
Yeah, much different.
I was in a conversation.
This is what gives youcredibility.
I was in a conversationrecently where they were
narrating some hurt and painthey experienced in the church
that caused them to walk away,and I said, hey, um, I've
experienced some hurt and painin the church too.
And they looked at me and theyknow my story and they're like,
wow, you've actually experiencedlike a mountain, more than I

(01:04:07):
have, and that's changed, likeit changed the dynamic in the
conversation, cause they'retalking to someone who is like
living it out, right, um, sothat's what I'm getting at is
like they need to see theauthenticity of your faith and
followership of Jesus.

Katie (01:04:22):
Well, this has been a really good conversation.
Maybe to summarize what we'vesaid, I think, when it comes to
the people in our lives who havede-churched, we wanna engage
them in a Jesus looking way.
We don't wanna write them off,but we also don't wanna come at
them in like overbearing orunhelpful ways.
We want to engage them withopenness and curiosity, paying
attention to where God isalready at work in their lives,

(01:04:43):
and we want to always be readyto extend an invitation for them
to step into God's activity,whether that be in church or in
another area of life.

Mac (01:04:51):
Yeah.
So thanks for joining us today.
I want to tell you where we'reheaded next.
This kind of closes out thisseries.
So we're about to head intoChristmas and New Year's and
then, after the new year, we'regoing to pick back up and we're
going to do a series onforgiveness and maybe just to
set up briefly the tension, I'lljust say, is this pretty much

(01:05:12):
everyone that I know agrees thatforgiveness is at the heart of
the gospel, and yet everybodystruggles with it forgiving
other people and so we want totake a step into that tension
and outline some mechanics forforgiveness and what gets in the
way of it.
So that's where we're headedand we hope you'll tune in.

Josiah (01:05:35):
Praxis is recorded and produced at Crosspoint Community
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(01:05:55):
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