Forgiveness vs. Reconciliation: What's the Difference?

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The journey from forgiveness to reconciliation is one of the most challenging paths in Christian discipleship. While many believers embrace God's forgiveness and understand the importance of forgiving others, the question of what comes next often leaves us confused, frustrated, or even stuck.

In this episode, we unpack a powerful distinction that clarifies the forgiveness process: "Forgiveness is a solo, reconciliation is a duet." Through the inspiring story of Elizabeth Elliott, who forgave and lived among the indigenous people who killed her missionary husband, we witness the transformative power of extending grace beyond our human capacity.

But what happens when forgiveness doesn't lead to reconciliation? Must we always return to relationship with those who've hurt us? We explore the nuanced spectrum of reconciliation—from simple cordial peace to full relational restoration—and the wisdom required to discern what's appropriate in each situation. When trust has been broken, particularly in cases of abuse or serious harm, reconciliation may look very different than simply returning to how things were.

At the heart of genuine reconciliation is a mutual commitment to acknowledging reality. Without both parties willing to face the truth of what happened, reconciliation becomes impossible or unsafe. Yet even when perspectives differ, grace can cover the gaps when hearts are open.

For those navigating this difficult terrain, we offer practical guidance on setting healthy boundaries, clarifying your needs, and communicating respectfully during the recalibration process. Whether you're seeking reconciliation with someone who's not ready or discerning how to respond to someone who wants to reconnect with you, these practices can help you embody both grace and wisdom.

Ready to deepen your understanding of forgiveness and reconciliation in your own relationships? Listen now, and discover how to practice the way of Jesus even in your most challenging relationships.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to Praxis, a podcast where we explore how to
practice and embody the way ofJesus in our everyday lives.
Thank you so much for takingthe time to listen.
We're in a series on the topicof forgiveness right now, and
few topics are more central tothe Christian faith.
Through Jesus, God offers usforgiveness and invites us into
a restored relationship.
It's easy for us to rejoice inGod's gift of forgiveness into a

(00:26):
restored relationship.
It's easy for us to rejoice inGod's gift of forgiveness, yet
we often have a hard timepracticing forgiveness towards
others.
Rather than embracing thefreedom and transformation that
comes with forgiveness,including the possibility of
reconciled relationship, we getstuck in bitterness and
resentment, to our own detriment.
So in this series, we'retalking about how to practice
and embody the forgiveness thatJesus invites and challenges us

(00:47):
to live into, whether it'slearning how to receive God's
forgiveness, asking others toforgive you or extending
forgiveness to others.
Our hope and prayer is thatyou'd sense God inviting you
deeper into practicing the wayof Jesus with us.
Today, we want to tease out thedifference between forgiveness
and reconciliation, and what itmeans to practice the former

(01:08):
while being open to the latter.
So that's where we're headedtoday.
Let's do it.

Speaker 2 (01:24):
Welcome everyone.
My name is Mac, I'm Katie, I'mJosiah.
So at the time of thisrecording, we just celebrated
Easter and I gave up coffee forLent and it was horrendous.
We know it sounds terrible,it's awful, but one of the
things that happened to me whilegiving up coffee for Lent was

(01:46):
that I had many dreams aboutcoffee while sleeping.
Stop it, I'm not joking youguys.
I had several dreams.
One I was drinking coffee andconsuming a donut.

Speaker 3 (02:02):
Your two favorite things.

Speaker 2 (02:03):
I got bombarded with dreams about coffee, that's
really funny.
And and then I found myselfresearching coffee quite a bit,
and to reward myself, for, youknow, my being a professional
Christian.

Speaker 3 (02:16):
I mean right, I mean I really nailed it.

Speaker 2 (02:20):
I bought a Turkish coffee pot.
Oh cool, I tried it yesterdayfor the first time.
So it's like this little potand you basically the coffee
grounds are very fine and youbasically bring it to a boil.
It's very strong and it wasamazing.
But it made me think of thisquestion and Katie just humor me
because I know you have anallergy to coffee and every once

(02:42):
in a while you kind of liketest it again to see if you're
still allergic.
And yep, you are, but you stillcan have like fun drinks.
You know what I mean.
Like you're still able to dosome things.
But what is your favorite wayto consume coffee, like in terms
of how it's prepared?

Speaker 3 (02:59):
At this point, I would say anyway.

Speaker 2 (03:01):
Anyway.

Speaker 3 (03:02):
But like if you were to go to like you know what I
mean say anyway, anyway, like ifyou were to go to like you know
what I mean.
Yeah, I remember, I studiedabroad, in Spain, when I was in
college, and Europe has the bestcoffee, the best coffee.
So I remember being in Italytaking a little.
You know you can get reallycheap flights once you're in
Europe, kind of around to thedifferent countries at least.
Then you could Um, and I justremember, like their cappuccinos

(03:22):
I guess they were smaller, theyweren't like venti Starbucks
size like we get here.
They're smaller but so muchbetter, just higher quality,
really frothy milk I love, justlike a little little little bit
of sugar, like just a littleflavor, not too sweet.

Speaker 2 (03:35):
A smidgen, just a smidge.

Speaker 3 (03:36):
Yeah yeah, that was some of the best coffee.
Oh, and ice cream.
They have these ice creamdrinks where it's like picture a
cappuccino with like a scoop ofice cream.
I remember just being in heaven.

Speaker 1 (03:53):
That's an affogato.
Yeah, that's, yeah, yeah, badthat, that's cool, that's my
favorite at Tulsi in town.

Speaker 3 (03:55):
Oh, that's cool.
I never knew this.

Speaker 2 (03:57):
Well, hey, maybe we'll have to take a little uh
vacation at some point, a littlefield trip.

Speaker 3 (04:02):
Next time I'm ready to test my esophagus and see if
I can handle it.
Let's go.

Speaker 1 (04:10):
That does sound fun.

Speaker 2 (04:10):
What about you, dude?
I mean, we were at SilentRetreat and you brought like a
full Chemex set.

Speaker 1 (04:17):
So you're into this man, you guys are both major
coffee snobs, yeah.
I wouldn't consider myself asnob, but I have learned to
appreciate coffee as one of myfavorite blessings in life.
I think I don't have superstrong preferences.
I guess it depends on this,Depending on the context.

(04:43):
I can appreciate coffee forwhat it is in just about any
context.
So if it's late at night andyou're trying to stay up late
and you're at a gas station andyou have burnt coffee that's
been sitting there all day, youcan appreciate it for it being
bad.
Gas station coffee I can alsoappreciate when I have time.

Speaker 2 (05:00):
Katie just threw up in her mouth a little bit.
Yeah, I can't get there I can'tdo it If you had to pick.
This is my favorite way that itis prepared.

Speaker 1 (05:12):
I would say a V60 pour over, prepared and drinking
fresh and appreciating all thenotes.
For sure, there's a lot ofthings I would give up, and I'm
not going to give up coffee forany reason.

Speaker 3 (05:27):
You guys, may know that I was a barista in high
school and college.

Speaker 2 (05:31):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (05:32):
But is now Java Hut downtown.
Used to be DG Beans and workedthere through college.
No, sorry, worked there in highschool and then in college,
worked at Starbucks.
And when you work at Starbucks,they want you to try every
single one of their coffeeblends so that you can recommend
them, so you did it all in oneday.

Speaker 2 (05:50):
Yeah probably, and that's probably why I'm now
allergic.
Well, um, speaking of a goodpour over, welcome to the Praxis
podcast.
Um, we're in this series onforgiveness and over the last
few episodes in this serieswe've been starting with like a
feature story that sort ofexemplifies, in a courageous way
, forgiveness.
So we've talked about RubyBridges and Corrie Ten Boom and

(06:14):
Josiah, you were going to bringa story for today.

Speaker 1 (06:17):
Yeah, yeah, I'm going to.
I want to share a story aboutsome missionaries that this was
actually a bedtime story that mydad would read us when we were
younger.
He loved courageous stories ofmissionaries, kind of leaving
everything behind and going to apeople group that had never
been contacted before.
So he had a collection of bookson these things and he would

(06:42):
naturally read them to littlekids before they go to bed.
Naturally, on these things, andhe would naturally read them to
little kids before they go tobed.
So, yeah, I have fond memoriesof that.
But, more importantly, this isthe story of a man named Jim
Elliott and his wife, elizabethElliott.
She documents about this storyin a book called Through Gates
of Splendor and she met herhusband in a group of

(07:07):
missionaries.
They were there were these fourother guys from um, from
college, that they had allgotten together and they were
doing other types of missionswork.
They ended up going together toum, the Auka people in Ecuador.
I think maybe their name haschanged over time, but this is
what they were called at thetime of the book Um.

(07:27):
But so her, her husband, shewas only married for a little
bit.
They had a 10 month olddaughter and he uh he and three
other people go to visit thispeople group that had never been
contacted before by anybody onthe outside, and they ended up
being speared to death basicallyupon entry.
So they were killed right awayand it was tragic, but it wasn't

(07:53):
long after.

Speaker 2 (07:55):
And your dad read this to you right before bed.

Speaker 3 (07:58):
Yes, gory, details and all.

Speaker 2 (08:00):
Yeah, it's like that prayer.
I think Tim Hawkins makes funof this.
Like now, I lay me down tosleep.
I pray the Lord my soul to keepif I should die, before I wake
like, as if it's like comfortingto kids.

Speaker 1 (08:15):
I wasn't thinking about death until now night
night kids sleep tight so, yeah,so he and his three other
friends that he went there tominister minister with are end
up end up being murdered bythese people and, um, rather
than staying bitter and um, youknow, I, I imagine that many

(08:36):
people might even have adeconstructing of faith moment,
knowing that you're trying to doa good work in the world and
you die for it she ends updoubling down and tries even
harder to try to contact thetribe, ends up having her she
had a missionary friend and theyended up making contact with

(08:57):
someone in like a neighboringtribe and, long story short, she
learns the language, forgivesthe people for what they had
done and ends up moving intotheir tribe with her
three-year-old daughter for twoyears and after being accepted.
Now, if you read in the book,you can read numerous stories of
just God's kingdom breakingthrough in that area.

(09:19):
That was like a headhuntingtribe that ended up discovering
Jesus in a really, really coolway.
And I just find it inspiringbecause, if you remember we had
talked about this before thatforgiveness can be this.
It's like your ability to be aconduit of God's love breaking

(09:40):
through into someone else's lifeas well.
Like it becomes, it just flowsthrough you and to see a story
where it could have ended inbitterness ended up being and
this person ended up channelingGod's love and forgiving these
people and ended up being agateway into discovering who God
is and God's kingdom breakingthrough in an area where it

(10:01):
wasn't.

Speaker 2 (10:03):
What that unlocks for me, kingdom, breaking through
in an area where it wasn't.
What that unlocks for me,josiah, is, especially given
that the story is one of missionwork.
You know, is just that thiswork of forgiveness was an
embodiment of the gospel.
So the gospel is demonstratedthrough the act of forgiveness,

(10:25):
which then opens them up toreceiving a message of
forgiveness that theydesperately need.
Yeah, and I just think that'sreally powerful and a good
reminder that, like our livinginto the kingdom can't just be
with words but with actions, andso learning to forgive is part
of how we embody God's kingdomhere and now.

Speaker 1 (10:41):
Yeah, Right, yeah, yeah, and I think it's Weren't
like cannibals, yeah.

Speaker 3 (10:46):
Yeah, it was.

Speaker 1 (10:47):
Yeah, before bed.

Speaker 3 (10:49):
Learning about that before bed yeah.

Speaker 1 (10:50):
Yeah, gosh.

Speaker 3 (10:51):
Thanks dad.

Speaker 2 (10:52):
It's shocking that you came out somewhat normal.

Speaker 1 (10:55):
I always found him very inspiring.
He liked reading missionarystories.
He he read us others of of likeBible smugglers and stuff, kind
of these miraculous stories.

Speaker 2 (11:07):
I can see how it'd be like a good pump up type thing,
like here's these courageouspeople that are doing really you
know, awesome things.
You know it's more like I don'tknow.
Most people listen to aMetallica song or, you know,
watch Rocky in the trainingscene or something, but your dad
read stories of missionariesrisking it all?

Speaker 1 (11:26):
Yeah Well, and if you know my dad, it's not
surprising.

Speaker 2 (11:29):
No.

Speaker 1 (11:30):
He's a passionate and intense person.

Speaker 2 (11:32):
Yeah, I love that.
I like that about your dad.
Love it Cool.

Speaker 3 (11:35):
Yeah, it's a cool story.
Thanks for sharing.

Speaker 1 (11:39):
Yeah, I think this story works on another level for
this podcast, because what thisstory exemplifies was a process
of forgiveness while alsomoving into reconciliation with
the people who had wronged her.
So maybe that's a good segueinto getting into what this

(11:59):
podcast series sorry, thispodcast episode is going to be
about.

Speaker 3 (12:03):
Yeah.
So in this series we've beenjourneying through the topic of
forgiveness and we've covered alot of important ground.
In our last episode, wediscussed the practical
mechanics of forgiveness.
So we talked about making anintentional decision to forgive.
We talked about what it lookslike to cancel the debt or
verbally declare forgivenessthrough prayer and journaling,
or telling the other person thatyou forgive them.

(12:23):
We also looked at aligning ouractions with a posture of
forgiveness, Like once we saywe've forgiven, how do we
actually act like it?
And then we talked about howforgiveness is a process and how
we have to continue to chooseit, even when we're triggered,
Like just because we chooseforgiveness doesn't mean our
emotions completely go away andbam, we're zapped into feeling

(12:47):
differently about it.
So I encourage you to go backand listen to the previous
episodes in the series.
They've laid a really importantgroundwork.
Today we're going to ask thequestion after you've forgiven
someone, what does it mean to beopen to reconciliation?

Speaker 2 (13:00):
Yeah, and you've heard this if you're part of our
church community.
We've said this from the stagewhile preaching and we probably
said it in this podcast a fewtimes so far.
But it's just this idea thatforgiveness is a solo whereas
reconciliation is a duet.
I think Cameron is the one whobrought that language to us.
He was talking to him about it.
He had a professor at Multnomah, where he went to school, who

(13:25):
taught pastoral counseling orsomething like that, and he
shared that.
I just think I love that.
It's so sticky.
I think it's helpful.
Just imagine someone playingthe piano right, and a solo is
them sitting on the bench bythemselves and they're the only
ones touching the keys, whereasa duet is someone sitting next
to them on the bench and they'reboth playing different parts,

(13:47):
and that sort of captures whatwe're trying to say.
Whereas forgiveness issomething, it's a song, you can
play all by yourself,reconciliation is not something
you can do by yourself.
It actually requires two peoplecoming together and both
extending and receivingforgiveness, as is appropriate,

(14:09):
depending on whereresponsibility lands to restore
what's ever broken in therelationship.
I want to insist on something,though, today, which is that the
way of Jesus does not only callus to forgive, but it actually
calls us beyond mere forgivenessinto reconciliation, and this
actually strikes me as being atthe core of the gospel.

(14:31):
The gospel isn't just aboutforgiveness, it's ultimately
about reconciliation.
So I want to read just brieflyfrom 2 Corinthians 5.
Paul says therefore if anyoneis in Christ, the new creation
has come.
The old is gone, the new ishere.
All this is from God, whoreconciled us to himself through
Christ and gave us the ministryof reconciliation.

(14:51):
That God was reconciling theworld to himself in Christ, not
counting people's sins againstthem, and he has committed to us
the message of reconciliation.
We are therefore Christ'sambassadors, as though God were
making his appeal through us.
We implore you, on Christ'sbehalf, be reconciled to God.

(15:11):
There's so much we could unpackabout those verses.
They're really dense.
But I want us to notice thatGod was not merely forgiving the
world in Jesus, he was pavingthe way for something additional
or bigger, and that isreconciliation.
He's reconciling the world tohimself and in light of that,
we've been given the sameministry, this ministry of

(15:35):
reconciliation, and we're now tobe ambassadors of
reconciliation in the world.
So forgiveness is obviously anessential ingredient of
reconciliation, butreconciliation is more than just
forgiveness.
So the point is is thateverything we've been focusing
on so far has been aboutforgiveness, and now we're sort
of crescendoing and going yep,but the gospel calls us beyond

(15:57):
that, and I think this raises alot of complications, like for
me.
When we go okay, we're not justcalled to forgive, but we're
called to be reconciled topeople, it just surfaces for me
a lot of questions right away.
So here's some questions that Iwrote down that just go okay,
but what does this actually mean?
Okay, does reconciliationrequire any kind of sustained

(16:21):
relationship with the otherperson, right?
Or if I reconcile with theother person, right?
Or if I reconcile with theother person, does that mean I
have to continue in relationshipwith them?
Like, do I have to go back tobeing best friends with them?
Is that what that means?
What does reconciliation meanif that person hasn't changed or
is still a really unhealthy ortoxic person to be around?
What if the offense that Iforgave was particularly

(16:45):
nefarious?
Like, what if that personabused you or you know it was a
particularly offensive crime orwhatever?
What do you do if you want tobe reconciled but the other
person doesn't?
And what do you do?
What if they want to return to,maybe, a meaningful
relationship, but you don't, orvice versa?
So what do you do if you're noton the same page?

(17:08):
One of the verses I hope we canintegrate as we continue to talk
, because I think it's sort oflike one of the key ingredients
for navigating this dynamicbetween forgiveness and
reconciliation, is what Paulsays in Romans 12, 18.
He says, if it is possible, asfar as it depends on you, live
at peace with everyone, and Ilove that verse because it sort

(17:29):
of names responsibility.
What we're going to see todayin our conversation is that your
job is to focus on you, to dothe work of forgiveness and then
be open open, that's a key wordopen to reconciliation so far
as it is possible.
But you can't control otherpeople right.
Whether they forgive you orwill choose to reconcile you is
not something you can manage.

(17:51):
That's something that's up tothem.
So I just share that versus,maybe like a guiding principle
as we make our way forward, thatwe're going to want to pay
attention to, like what's oursto own and what belongs to other
people, and Paul's challenge togo hey, what's ours to own and
what belongs to other people andPaul's challenge to go.
Hey, as far as it depends onyou right, be at peace with
everyone, knowing you can't, youknow, control or manipulate

(18:12):
someone else into a differentspace.
You know what I mean.

Speaker 3 (18:20):
Yeah, um, I like the distinction that you made.
I like the solo thatforgiveness is a solo,
reconciliation is a duet.
Another phrase that I cameacross says forgiveness is like
letting go of a heavy weightthat you've been carrying.
Reconciliation is like buildinga bridge with someone Like
you're building a bridge and yousort of both have to be okay,
you know, with that being thereAnother way of looking at this,
I think forgiveness is primarilyinternal, whereas

(18:41):
reconciliation involves somelike external actions and
interaction.
And so, yeah, I think those areall helpful frames for
navigating this conversation.

Speaker 2 (18:50):
Yeah, and what do you guys think about, I guess, this
assertion I'm making, that thegospel calls us, beyond just
forgiveness, to pursuereconciliation, and that
reconciliation can be reallycomplicated.
Do you guys agree with that?

Speaker 1 (19:02):
Yeah, yeah for sure.
I love the vision to put outthere that all things will be
reconciled to God, and that Ifind inspiring because even if
things don't work out right now,I know God can, and that
re-engages my energy to want toforgive and to enter into the

(19:24):
work of remaining in rightrelationships so far as it
depends on me.
It is really complicated to gobeyond and I think the
distinction is important, thatit's one of the reasons people

(19:45):
sometimes resist forgiving,because they believe that it
means that when I do, I'm goingto have to pick up this
relationship right where it leftoff, and sometimes, as we're
going to hopefully unpack today,that's not always the wise move
for either party.

Speaker 2 (20:02):
Yeah, well, why don't we do this?
Let's take some of thosecomplicating questions and just
kind of begin working throughthem.
Maybe we can work through someof these questions because I
imagine, for those who arelistening, they face some messy
situations where reconciliationwasn't as simple as two people
just sitting down and playingchopsticks on the piano.
Right, it's a little bit morecomplicated than that.

(20:23):
So why don't we just kind ofhave an exploratory conversation
around some of these questionsand kind of get into the nuance,
the nuance of things?

Speaker 1 (20:30):
All right, let's start with this question Does
reconciliation require returningto a relationship with the
other person?

Speaker 2 (20:39):
Yes, I think there's again some nuance to my answer.
I would say yes and no, andhere's what I mean.
The yes part is based on thenotion that reconciliation
fundamentally means a restoredrelationship.
Right, it involves mutualforgiveness, where both parties
cancel the debt owed to eachother, resulting in a

(21:02):
restoration of rightrelationship between those two
people.
Anything less than that, to meat least, does not seem to be
reconciliation.
It's something less thanreconciliation right At the
heart of it.
Reconciliation is a duet.
It requires both people comingtogether, and so on and so forth
.
I forgive you, you forgive me,and we own our part.
I think where the no comes intoplay is that reconciliation for

(21:26):
me does not mean a return tosustained relationship or
resuming the relationship withthe other person.
Necessarily it doesn't meanre-entering the same kind of
closeness, trust or frequency ofconnection that we once shared.
In fact, almost because therelationship broke in some way,
it's almost imperative that wedon't return to the relationship

(21:47):
and repeat what led to thebrokenness in the first place.
Does that make sense?
So it's almost like yes,reconciliation by definition
requires a restored relationship, but then there's probably some
discernment afterwards to go,and what kind of, if any,
sustained relationship are wegoing to pursue?

(22:08):
Does that make sense?
What do you guys think?

Speaker 3 (22:11):
I hear you using two terms that I want to zoom in on
and I'm just curious about.
I hear you using the termrestored relationship to talk
about kind of getting back tothis sense where the
relationship can be restored toa sense of you know.
I assume that means having somepeace between each other.

(22:32):
I'd be curious to hear what yousay about that.
And then I also hear youtalking about sustained
relationship and I'd love todive into the difference between
those two.

Speaker 2 (22:43):
Yeah, so at least for me, and if you guys don't share
the same perspective, chime in.
But reconciliation I see, atleast scripturally, being about
right relationship.
So there's a sense in whichwhatever was broken we're
acknowledging and forgiving, andnow we're right that no longer
is the debt that was there isover on both sides.

(23:05):
But that's to me different thanwhat might continue moving
forward.
So maybe an illustration wouldhelp.
Our church went through a reallymessy time, you know, seven
some years ago.
It ended up being almost prettymuch a church split and Josie
and I lost some friendships inthe process and one of them in

(23:25):
particular stung way more thanthe others.
They were like our best friends.
I mean, honestly, stung doesn'tquite capture the dynamic.
It felt like an emotional rootcanal without anesthesia.
It was awful and I'll circleback to the story, I think,
later on in this episode.

(23:46):
But part of the challenge was isthat there wasn't great
communication along the way andwe wanted to have some
opportunity to talk to them andand they they didn't um, they
didn't really want to to talkmuch and it just put us in a
really awful situation wherewe're like, hey, there's stuff
going on here we need to talkabout.
It shared what happened fromeach other's vantage points.

(24:12):
Here's what happened from ourvantage point.
They shared et cetera, and weeach were kind of able to lean
in compassionately and withsympathy and go okay, I see that

(24:34):
I see your perspective and makeamends.
We were able to make amends,own what we needed to own, take
responsibility for what weneeded to take responsibility
for.
We said the words I forgive you, and it went in every direction
.
Okay, at that point we'resaying, hey, the past has been
forgiven, we're in rightrelationship, right, but that

(25:00):
reconciliation didn't result inus like re-upping and moving
into trying to regain arelationship moving forward To
this day.
It's not like we hang out, wedon't hang out.
So there's a sense in which thepast has been forgiven.
I no longer hold that againstthem.
I'm assuming based on what wedid, they no longer hold it

(25:21):
against me.
But there's a separate questionabout okay, do we want to
pursue friendship again?
And there seems to be somemutuality to go that season's
over, that season's over, andwhen I see them it's not like I
hold anything against them, butwe're also not back into it the
way we once were.
Does that make sense?

Speaker 1 (25:39):
Yeah, and that's a distinct difference between
holding a grudge and figuringout how to move forward in light
of everything that happened.
Like you said before,continuing an unhealthy
relationship in the same waythat caused the brokenness and
wounding in the first place thatneeded to be forgiven like
should sound unwise to us, likecontinuing it in the exact same

(26:02):
way when all of that happened.
Now, this could mean a varietyof things which I'm sure we're
going to get into, but it couldbe a redefined sense of
boundaries with someone of likehere's what I'm willing to do,
here's what I'm not willing todo.
In light of this, I don't wantto continue the same patterns or
things that caused wounding orpain.
It could be renewed commitmentsIf this is like a marriage and

(26:24):
you're reconciling and you'retrying to stay together and
faithful to each other.
It could be renewed commitmentsyou're going to make to each
other.
Or it could be a perceiveddistance that, hey, continuing
this in the same way isn't wise.
So that's a distinct differencebetween.
There's a distinct differencebetween what you're naming Mac

(26:46):
and someone who is unwilling togo to the table to talk.

Speaker 2 (26:50):
Yes.
Again, the question was doesreconciliation require a return
to relationship with the otherperson?
I'm saying it requires a returnto right relationship.
There's no longer anybrokenness between us in the
sense of the wrong that was doneno longer has the loudest voice
.
We've repaired that.
But then there's thissubsequent question which is

(27:13):
like but are we going tocontinue to pursue relationship?
Will there be any sustained ornew relationship moving forward,
knowing that we've repairedwhat's broken and I'm saying not
necessarily so with thisexample I just shared the answer
was no.
There's no bad blood between usanymore.
When we see them, we're able tooperate with mutual respect and

(27:35):
kindness.
But when it comes to asustained or meaningful
relationship from now movingforward, we're not at that place
.
And so I guess maybe there's aquestion to go what's
appropriate?
What's appropriate Once you'vereconciled meaning the thing
that was broken, the wrongdoingthat happened has been

(27:57):
acknowledged and mutualforgiveness has been extended in
both directions, and now you'rediscerning is sustained
relationship appropriate and ifso, what does that look like?
Well, it's going to becomplicated and I hear you
speaking to some of that right,josiah.

Speaker 1 (28:13):
Yeah, yeah, there's a when, there's a when there's a
relationship that is broken insome form in any manner.
I guess there's an assumedsense of brokenness within
certain patterns of therelationship.
I guess maybe this is a littletoo zoomed out, but I'm thinking

(28:34):
there's this sense of there'sbrokenness within the patterns
of your relationship.
To forgive each other and torun back into those same
patterns would be silly.
You'd just be running rightback into the same brokenness.
So if forgiveness and thenreconciliation is restoring us
towards right relationship withGod, I would imagine that would

(28:57):
assume that both people areready to move forward towards
God and then submitting thosepatterns to him.
So maybe it's a long and maybelonger way to say that you're
going to have to redefine whatthe relationship looks like now
that we have new light and newinsight into what's going on.

Speaker 2 (29:14):
Yeah, it comes to the second question, the second
part, which is sustainedrelationship.
I wrote down a few variablesthat seem important to attend to
or to consider.
So just try this on.
One would be the seriousness ofthe wrongdoing.
Right, there's probably aspectrum there.
If it's a minor offense, ifit's no big deal, then, like it,

(29:38):
probably not going to mean theend of all relationship with the
other person.
But let's say it's a major, amajor relational break, like you
were physically or sexuallyabused or something like that.
That is categorically differentand probably by necessity means
not returning in any sustainedway to that relationship, right,

(30:02):
if you've been in a highlyabusive situation.
So that's one variable name theseriousness of the wrongdoing.
A second variable I wrote downwas a person's desire to return
to the relationship.
Right, you may not want to andthat's just to reckon with your
own water to go, hey, I mightnot want to go back to this

(30:26):
relationship for this or thatreason.
That's a variable that youwould have to attend to.
And then the final one is theone you keep highlighting,
josiah, which is just therelational health and the
restoration of trust Meaning ifit means going back to the same
brokenness that we had toforgive in the first place, not
saying you can completely.
You know not, you are going tobe perfect human beings moving

(30:48):
forward.
Like every relationship, hassome brokenness.
Let's just acknowledge that.
But if it just means steppingback into the same junk without
any effort to improve or tolearn or to grow, then that
might be an indicator that thisisn't healthy right, and I
always say trust is somethingthat's earned.
It's like the way we buildmuscle it's through consistent

(31:11):
effort over time.
It's the same thing with trust.
When there's a brokenness inrelationship, there's always a
fracture of trust and youshouldn't, you know, jump right
back into it.
Trust is built throughconsistent behavior over time,
and if someone has proven thatthey're not trustworthy, if they
haven't proven that yet, it'sunwise to give them your trust
right away.

(31:31):
Again, that makes sense.

Speaker 3 (31:34):
Yeah, I mean, I hear you saying that trust takes time
.

Speaker 2 (31:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (31:37):
It's just it's going to take time to reestablish or
reenter into relationship aftersome hurt and pain.
So I would say, don't expectyourself to figure this out
overnight, right.
Go to God in prayer, maybe seekthe advice of others around you
, perhaps a professionaltherapist, especially in
situations you mentioned, likewhere abuse is involved.
We've talked a lot aboutjournaling.

(31:58):
There are all sorts of ways, Ithink, that we can intentionally
lean into this practice of whatdoes it look like to rebuild
trust and is it safe to do so?

Speaker 2 (32:07):
I was putzing around on chat GPT, and it gave me a
chart like a spectrum, likelet's pretend for a second that
reconciliation can happen on aspectrum.
So if we just assume so, here'sthe spectrum.
One would be cordial peace.
You let go of resentment andcan be civil with the other

(32:27):
person.
That's like the bare minimumright.
Second would be like sort of aclear the air moment where you
address the wrongdoing, bothsides own their part and you're
kind of like we good, yeah,we're good Okay, and there's
some communication.
The third one is functionalcooperation, which is you can

(32:48):
work or interact without tension.
The story I shared before aboutour falling out with some
really good friends, that'swhere we're at.
I see them and we couldcooperate, we could like okay.
The fourth one and here's wherewe're getting into more what I
think a lot of people associatewith reconciliation is emotional
reconnection.

(33:08):
There's warmth, mutual trustbegins to form again, there's
some emotional vulnerabilitythat starts to take place again,
right.
And then the final one is fullrelational restoration, which is
your back and deep relationship, just like it was before.
And I guess the reason why I'mtalking so much about this is
because I think some people,just like they resist

(33:31):
forgiveness because they confuseit with something that it's not
, might resist reconciliationbecause they confuse it with
those last two, which isreopening up emotionally or
returning to the way it was, andI want to say no.
Reconciliation at its bareminimum is just about you being
rightly related to that otherperson and canceling the history

(33:52):
of brokenness.
But then there's a whole lot ofdiscernment that you have about
what does it look like to moveforward in sustained
relationship, if at all, doesthat?
You ask, katie, about those twophrases I'm using.
Does that bring clarity for you?

Speaker 3 (34:10):
It does it very much.
Does you know I one of themaybe more obvious examples that
comes to my mind of people whohave divorced but still have to
co-parent?
And I feel like I've seenvarious um like degradations of
how that works.
For some it's like they don'ttalk at all, it's very minimal
and it's just logistics, andsome have developed like a
really cooperative relationship.

(34:31):
Obviously it doesn't look likeit did when they were married,
but but there's like a a fairlyhealthy relationship built on
mutual respect and and.

Speaker 2 (34:41):
I think in churches, church environments, if we're
not clear on some of what we'retalking about, it can lead to
some, it can do some bad work.
So, for instance, have you everconfused forgiveness with
reconciliation or experiencedpressure to be reconciled with
someone that may be at a levelthat wasn't appropriate?

(35:05):
Let me give you an example.
Okay, I know one woman who wastouched inappropriately by her
grandfather when she was goingthrough adolescence, and when
she told her parents what hadhappened, the grandfather denied

(35:26):
it.
Okay.
So it kind of was a he said,she said type thing.
And now fast forward.
You know, many years later, thegrandfather is still alive and
still attends all the familyfunctions, right, and everyone,
in the name of reconciliation,expects her to show up at these

(35:47):
family gatherings and act likeeverything's fine, even though
there's been no acknowledgementthat of what happened.
In the name of forgiveness andreconciliation, does that make
sense?
So?
So I think that there's there'sa problem here when we assume,
for instance, reconciliationmeans, hey, we're just going to
return back to normal, whenactually there's this offense,
that even if the grandfatheracknowledged it and said, will

(36:12):
you forgive me, it still may notbe wise for that woman to
return to these family events.
Yeah Right, and it's notbecause I no longer she could
forgive him.
I no longer hold that againstyou, but I don't trust you,
mm-hmm, and I'm not going to putmyself in your proximity
anymore, because you haven'tearned my trust.

Speaker 1 (36:33):
Does that make sense?
Yeah, I guess I would.
I agree with all of that.
I think that if I'm sittinghere and I'm trying to play this
like another side of it, I do.
I do think that there is a lotof nuance between I fully
forgiven and I'm being wise andnot trusting you.

(36:54):
There is a big there.
There doesn't seem to be a lotof difference on the outside of
someone who says I forgive youbut I'm refusing to go anywhere
near you because I still resentyou for everything you've done
to me, and on the outside Ithink those two things could
look very much the same tosomeone on the outside looking
in.

Speaker 2 (37:12):
Yeah, let me play devil's advocate with myself,
building on what you're sayingFun.
Okay, let's do it for a moment,because here's the thing is I
named one of the variables fordetermining what sustained
relationship looks like is thedegree of offense.
Is it a particularly heinous ornefarious offense?
Well, being your grandfatherabusing you all the examples

(37:33):
that I've used I go, hey, it maynot be wise is a particularly
nefarious offense.
Now, if I'm going to playdevil's advocate, I also see
this happening in our culture alot, where people have some
relational I don't know baggagewith someone else, like they
just bump into each other, likeany people we just do.

(37:57):
We bump into each other, butthen they give themselves in
light that permission to ghostthe other person in the name of
this is toxic.
And I only surround myself withpeople who are healthy and so
on and so forth and, in theprocess, actually aren't
embodying the heart of God,which is all points to
reconciliation, and they'reactually undoing opportunities

(38:18):
for mutual transformation asdisciples of Jesus, because it's
actually when we work throughconflict that there's an
opportunity to grow.
So, that's what I would say tome I'm very confused yeah that
is true.

Speaker 1 (38:33):
Yeah, there's a lot of psychological language and
lingo that has become the normvia social media in our time
today and it's very easy towield that like a weapon or a
shield to keep from having toactually address things
interpersonally with someone.

Speaker 2 (38:52):
Yeah, yeah, again there's the ghosting is so
common now, or in Bowen familysystems theory.
It's a cutoff.
We just cut off from peoplethat are too challenging for us
or where there's dynamics thatdidn't quote, unquote didn't do
good work for me, rather thanlearning how to grow our own
emotional maturity andinterpersonal relationship with

(39:13):
others by working throughchallenges, and that's the
pushback.
But that is infinitely harderif the toxicity is nefarious,
and that's an importantdistinction that I want to make
when it comes to arguing withmyself.
The examples that I'm going hey, sustained relationship
probably isn't a good idea iswhen the offense was really
serious.
Everything else you know to acertain degree, is going to be

(39:37):
something that you need to beopen to, because I think the
gospel calls us to it and andwe'll, but we'll largely depend
upon both people being willingto lean in.

Speaker 3 (39:48):
Yes.
So one theme I'm hearing bothof you say is that there's
probably not a one size fits allfor each and every relationship
.
It really does require tendingto nuance, requires discernment
and it requires sort ofcontinually reflecting on your
own heart with God, yeah.
So here's another question Doyou think it's possible to
reconcile with someone else ifthey won't take responsibility

(40:09):
for their wrongdoing?
Like, what do we do if we'rethere, we're ready to reconcile
and you know someone's like?
Well, I didn't do that.
Where do we go with that?

Speaker 1 (40:21):
I would say no.
I don't think it's possible toreconcile into relationship with
someone else in any sort oftrusting capacity, with someone
who is unwilling to takeresponsibility or, at minimum,
agree with you about the realityof what happened.
Agree with you about thereality of what happened, and I

(40:47):
think that I often see peopleover-function and take way too
much of the responsibility ofwhat happened when they aren't
the ones who did it, in the nameof trying to get people, trying
to restore a relationship.
So you don't like the tension,you take more responsibility
than you need to, and then theother person doesn't take enough
and you've essentially donetheir job of reconciliation for

(41:11):
them and created this pseudo,surface level, shaky, built on
straw type of house ofrelationship, and I think that's
what ends up happening and Ithink that we should have a much
broader vision of whatreconciled relationship looks
like than that.

Speaker 2 (41:29):
I tend to agree with you, josiah.
Again, going back to thedefinition, genuine
reconciliation is a duet.
It requires two people comingtogether and attending to
reality and the wrong thatactually took place.
Um, then, in light of that,extending and receiving
forgiveness, you know, based oneach other's responsibility.
Um, if someone isn't willing toown their part, then there is

(41:55):
no reconciliation.
You know what I mean.
Like, reconciliation withoutresponsibility isn't safe, it's
not real.
More often, just as you'renaming, it's an appeasement
strategy that leads to somethingless than being right.
You get what I'm saying?
Like, if built into thedefinition is two people owning

(42:15):
their stuff and that's how weget right and one person isn't
willing to do that or able to,well, then it's not possible.

Speaker 1 (42:22):
Yeah, and there's a difference between, oh, we're
going to agree to disagree aboutwhat happened and you know,
like about that, as opposed tosomeone who is straight up
denying right.
So like if you're straight updenying anything happened or
it's like, well, that's not howI see it.
All of that plays into how muchyou're able to trust if this

(42:46):
person is going to meet youthere.
But at the end of the day, ifyou are wanting to be in some
sort of like close proximityrelationship with someone, and
maybe this is probably likelevel three type of trust,
you're going to need to be ableto agree about the reality of
what happened.

(43:06):
Yes, and if you can't do that,building trust is going to be
really difficult.
And you're going to find thatyou're going to find that you're
going to feel better walkingaway from a conversation.
It's going to feel somewhatcathartic that you guys, you
know, quote, unquote made up,and you're going to feel better
walking away from a conversation.
It's going to feel somewhatcathartic that you guys, you
know, quote, unquote made up,and you're going to go away
thinking, okay, it's all goodnow and for a minute you're

(43:28):
going to be like we're good, butit's shaky, because trust can't
be built when you both can'tagree about what happened.
Does that make sense?

Speaker 3 (43:38):
Yes, I would agree for the most part with what both
of you are saying, and I wouldalso want to maybe push back or,
for a better term, just add,add some nuance.
I think this idea that, hey, onsome level, some shared reality
is absolutely essential formoving forward, especially if
you've got again abuse andsomeone's like there's gas

(44:01):
lighting going on.
I didn't do that.
Well, okay, then clearly, yeah,this is not, this is not
healthy or safe, but I couldalso.
What gives me pause is I canthink of specific examples in my
own life where it, where itdidn't totally feel like a
shared, a shared reality was100% possible, and yet there was

(44:26):
some opportunity to just kindof like extend grace to cover
the difference.
And, in particular, one examplethat came to mind was from
early on in my marriage.
We had a season early on when wehad brand new baby Charlie nine
years ago.
I was working a whole lot and myhusband had a more flexible job
and was taking on more of theresponsibilities at home and was

(44:48):
even a stay-at-home dad for awhile, and that season was
really difficult for us.
I think we both did things thatdidn't navigate it as well as we
could have and, as a result, weboth did things that maybe
required some forgiving, right,it was just a difficult season
in a lot of ways, and as wemoved out of that season we

(45:11):
began to kind of debrief it andhave conversations about it.
And I'll be honest, like wesome of, in some ways our
perspectives were really farapart.
Like it was just we both kindof came to the conversation
ready to share our perspectiveand then have the other person
apologize and like ready toforget whatever.
And it didn't go that way.
It was just this we hadmultiple conversations where
it's just like it was like Idon't remember it that way, I
just don't remember it that wayand we had to work really hard

(45:33):
at parsing through activelylistening, hearing what the
other person was saying yes,taking ownership for what, what
we could, and affirming kind ofaffirming Okay, I understand
that you experience it that way,and then, in certain areas,
just extending grace to coverthe gaps.

Speaker 2 (45:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (45:52):
Where they didn't totally align.
Yeah, does that make?

Speaker 2 (45:55):
sense it totally does , and I think you just added a
great addition to ourconversation, or some nuance,
because reconciliation requiresattending to reality, okay, but
there's a question mark aboutwhat reality is, and we need
some humility, I think, to say Idon't have like unfiltered
access to reality.
We all have a lens, we all haveglasses.

(46:18):
We're wearing that shape, theway we see things and perceive
things.
That's why we have fourdifferent gospel accounts.
They're all narrating theirexperience of what Jesus was
like.
They're seeing it from theirown vantage point, right.
And so when there's a wrong oroffense, what happens when two
people don't agree on whatactually happened?
Right, and I think there's somenuance to unpack here, because

(46:44):
what you are describing is youand Alex both attempting to
attend to the truth of whathappened, but starting in very
different places.
And then you had to do the workof okay, tell me what you
noticed and how you saw it.
And there's probably some likeconcessions you both made or oh,
okay, I see how you right, Isee how you see it that way, and

(47:05):
so on and so forth, but both ofyou were actually attending to
reality or attending to thetruth based on where you were
starting, with like openness ofheart and a desire to move
toward it, and I really likedthe idea of grace covered where
the differences were.
I also want to name there'sother situations where the
person who did the wrongdoinghas no interest in attending to

(47:26):
the truth at all.
They're committed to afabricated version of reality
because they want to maintain asense of innocence or victimhood
, and so they blame, theydeflect, they distort, and in
those situations I don't thinkit is wise or possible to pursue

(47:49):
reconciliation.
Does that make sense?

Speaker 3 (47:53):
It does.

Speaker 2 (47:54):
And here's what's tricky is those people?
If you actually so, I have anexample, like there are a couple
of people in my life,unfortunately, where I would
love to be reconciled.
I really would.
There's a broken relationshipand I'd love to be reconciled.
I really would.
There's a broken relationshipand I'd love to be reconciled
because I think the gospel callsus to that right.
But I feel like, going back toPaul's verse, be at peace with

(48:17):
all people.
So far as it depends on you, Ireally feel like I have done
what I can.
I've sat in God's presence,prayed through each part of the
brokenness, used Psalm 139,search me, oh God, and know my
heart, test me and know myanxious thoughts, see if there's
any offensive way in me.
I've talked to other peopleabout it, shared what happened.
What do I need to own Like?

(48:38):
I've done all of the work rightand I feel like man.
I've done what I can.
And this other person not onlyhas a very different
understanding of what happened,but seems to be operating out of
a very different narrativealtogether and has no interest
in attending to the truth frommy vantage point.

Speaker 3 (49:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (49:00):
Right.

Speaker 3 (49:01):
Yeah, so maybe a key ingredient here is just some
humility and some perspectivetaking.

Speaker 2 (49:06):
Yes, and what I'm saying is if the person isn't
wanting to attend to the truth,even if you're starting at two
very different reference points,I just don't know if
reconciliation is possible if wedon't have the common goal of
attending to the truth.

Speaker 3 (49:21):
Yeah, yeah, I see that.

Speaker 1 (49:23):
So maybe it's a variable scale of attending to
the truth and that correlatessomewhat, I would say pretty
directly, to the amount you cantrust or your ability to build
trust with the person.
So it's one thing to not seeeye to eye and to say that you

(49:44):
know, I hear you, it's not whatI'm doing.
You know we disagree about whathappened and we're trying to
figure that out.
It's another thing tocompletely deny any wrongdoing
and then reverse, reverse,victim the whole thing.
Um, that would indicate a verylow level of possible trust
moving forward.
So maybe we just correlate itthat way, like it's not a one

(50:06):
size fits all, like you weresaying, it's like a scale of
truth telling, or maybe a betterway would be like there's like
a scale of reality in which wecan agree to of what happened
and to the degree that we'reunwilling to see it that way, or

(50:26):
I should say an unwillingnessto accept it at what it is, then
that's going to impact how muchyou'll be able to build trust
moving forward.

Speaker 2 (50:35):
Try this on for size Now.
This is an attempt to summarizeour best thinking in real time.
A prerequisite forreconciliation is attending to
reality.
Prerequisite for reconciliationis attending to reality.
I'm not saying that you haveunfiltered access to reality.
I'm saying the intention is toactually attend to the truth of

(50:55):
what happened.
And in your example with Alex,there was a genuine pursuit of
that, even though it was messyand you started with very
different frames of whathappened.
And I just want to make adistinction between like yeah,
and that's a normal part ofpursuing reconciliation with two
different people, I mean youand I, the three of us.
I've had conflict with each oneof you in our long time working

(51:19):
together and this is how itgoes.

Speaker 3 (51:20):
Oh, that's not how.

Speaker 2 (51:21):
I saw it, this is how I saw it oh, okay, and back and
forth, and then there's graceto cover whatever gap still may
exist.
Right, reconciliation is not ushaving the exact same
perspective on every littlething, but that is very
different from someone whodoesn't even want to take a
journey towards reality or thetruth of what happened at all,
because they have a vestedinterest in maintaining their

(51:41):
innocence or status as a victim.

Speaker 3 (51:43):
It's a protective measure.
A protective measure yeah, thatfeels like an important
distinction.

Speaker 2 (51:48):
For some people, it will cost way more to attend to
reality than to simply thantheir current reality of
operating out of a falsenarrative.

Speaker 1 (51:58):
Yeah, yeah, this is really good.
Okay, so another question,let's flip this around.
So what if you're?
What do you do if you're opento being reconciled with someone
, but the other person is not?

Speaker 3 (52:11):
Yeah, my mind goes back to the verse Romans 12, 18,
that Max shared.
If it is possible, as far as itdepends on you, live at peace
with everyone.

Speaker 2 (52:21):
In the diagram that we've referenced a few times in
this series, where we outlinethe cycle of enemy making, talk
about cruciform forgiveness andthen lay out the steps for
forgiveness.
The final step afterforgiveness is reconciliation.
But there's a little questionmark there and underneath that
question mark.

(52:41):
If you go into the show notesand look at it, it says release,
and what that is referring tois releasing it to God in prayer
that God might.
If you're open to beingreconciled with someone else and
so far as you can tell they'renot open to being reconciled,
the best thing you can do ismaintain a clean heart towards

(53:02):
that other person, rather thangetting bitter at them for not
wanting to be reconciled, andthen pray and ask God to do the
continued work in you and themto make reconciliation possible,
knowing that is the telos ofcreation.
So let me give you a story, andthis goes back to the couple I
alluded to earlier, our reallyclose friends.
We had a falling out.

(53:23):
Part of what made that sotricky, as I alluded to, is that
I really wanted to say I liketalking things out.
When there's a problem, I liketo just sit down.
Let's just be honest andtransparent and talk things out
and be reasonable.
They did not want to, made itclear they didn't want to.
In that season I had a backinjury and that's another whole

(53:47):
long story but I had a discbulge from crossfitting too much
to deal with the stress of atoxic work environment, blah,
blah, blah.
But I healed my back.
I hurt my back and it wasreally bad and I was trying all
different sorts of stuff to tryto like relieve the pain and get
back on track PT andchiropractors and so on and I
had a lot of appointments and atone of the appointments they

(54:10):
put like this little TENS uniton my back and then just like
leave me in the room for 20minutes a half an hour to get
some like blood flow to the areaand reduce inflammation.
So I had this I don't knowabout 20 or 30 minutes and I
began just using that for prayer.
I'm just laying there, so Imight as well pray about things.
And one day I'm laying therewith this TENS unit on getting

(54:32):
some e-stimulation and I startedpraying for this broken
relationship and I'm pouring myheart out to God.
I'm still in a lot of pain andhurt because it's our closest
friends and I'm asking God torestore the relationship and to
soften my heart wherever it'shard, and Josie's and theirs and
all that.
I'm giving it all to God.
And then, all of a sudden, I getthis picture in my mind.

(54:55):
This picture comes to my mindand I'm interpreting this as
from God, but it was a pictureof me sitting on their front
step and I very much sensedJesus saying to me, as this

(55:18):
picture came to mind wait here.
And it felt important to mebecause everything in me wanted
to like walk through the frontdoor and try to reason with them
, or, like an obnoxious child,ring the doorbell over and over
and over until they answer, likeeverything in me wanted to get
into that house to try to reasonwith them.
And I very much sense Jesusjust saying wait here, I'm
already in there, don't leave.

(55:41):
You need to stay open to whenthey open the door, but you're
gonna wait here and you're notto do anything else, okay.
So I shared that with Josie andwe just committed to like
praying God, continue to softenmy heart, soften our hearts
where there's stuff there, andwe trust that you're doing the

(56:02):
work in them, in their home,that we can't see and can't
control.
I actually developed a littlerhythm, because I'd often see
them at drop-off for school,when I was dropping off our kids
for school, which was alwayspainful because it's like we
used to talk and now it's justlike this awkwardness and pain.
And so I just began using mywalk to and from school with our

(56:25):
boys every time to just bepraying in my mind.
God, would you soften my heart,would you bring about
reconciliation?
This lasted for about ninemonths and one day we were
dropping our kids off.
I had just had foot surgery andI'm sitting in the car while
Josie's bringing our boys intoschool and I'm in the front seat
with my crutches and thisfriend is walking by a car and

(56:48):
sees me sitting there withcrutches and looks surprised and
he actually walks up to thewindow and I roll down the
window.
He goes what happened to you?
So I explained hey, old hockeyinjury had to get it repaired.
Blah, blah, blah, blah, and Isensed God saying give a test
balloon, like float out yourheart.
You've been praying about yourheart, so let them know what
your heart is.
So I just looked at him andwe'll call him come up with a

(57:12):
name Steve, steve.
I just looked at this guy and Isaid Steve, I love you and I
want you to know that and I'dlove for things to be made right
between us.
And that's all I said.
And he got a little bituncomfortable and I said I just
want you to know my heart, Ilove you.

(57:32):
And then that was it.
He walked away and I felt aninvitation from God to follow up
with a text to cast some visionfor what that meant.
So I followed up with a textand just said hey, it really
meant a lot that you stopped andasked I want to reiterate that
I really love you both and Iwant to be made right with you.

(57:53):
If you'd ever be open to havinga conversation, can we get
together and just talk about it?
I think I have some stuff toown.
So I let out with that, like Iprobably have some stuff to own,
and he took me up on it.
It took him about a week and ahalf to get back to me, but
finally he said yeah, it's beenkind of haunting me.
I think we should get togetherand we did.
We got together and it was apainful lunch.

(58:14):
I had to hear things from hisperspective that I didn't know.
He heard some things from myperspective he didn't know.
Both of us were crying atdifferent times and then, after
that conversation, we extendedand received forgiveness,
reconciliation happened, andthen I got a text from his wife.
We need to talk too.
Same thing Met for coffee,painful, hard, but it ended the

(58:36):
same way.
And then Josie did the samething.
So my point is to illustrate.
I'm not saying I don't want toscript my story over everybody,
but I want to say that maybethere are some principles to
draw on when you want to bereconciled with someone else and
they don't want to be.
I would just suggest prayingfor your own heart to stay pure

(58:57):
and soft and ask that God wouldnot only be working on their
hearts but pave the way to bringabout an opportunity for
reconciliation and trust God tomove.

Speaker 3 (59:08):
It's a really cool story.

Speaker 1 (59:09):
It's like the obsession of thinking about it.
You can reframe it in using itas an opportunity.
So, like my mind's not going tobe able to let this go right
now, so I'm going to use it as acontinual opportunity to
reengage God's presence and acontinual invitation into prayer

(59:33):
for the other person and foryou.
So I see it as a really healthyspiritual reframing in a
positive way of saying I'mobsessed with this.
This does show how much thisdoes show how much I want it and
, God, I need your help tosustain me in a season where I'm
waiting for it.
And all of that just increasesdependency on God.

(59:54):
Rhythms of continual prayer,All that softens your heart and
keeps you really open to whathe's doing.
I also get the picture of theprodigal son story.
Jesus tells waiting on the step.
He didn't.
The father didn't run.

(01:00:15):
When he was laying in the pigpen he waited.
He was waiting until it wasinitiated.
And when he saw him coming downthe road, right, they say he
ran to meet him Like he wasinitiated.
Yeah, and when he saw himcoming down the road, right,
they say he ran to meet him Likehe was eagerly waiting.
So it's this picture that thefather clearly already forgiven
and was ready for reconciliation, and the second that there was

(01:00:36):
an open door.
He ran to meet him.

Speaker 2 (01:00:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:00:39):
I think that's a cool picture.

Speaker 2 (01:00:40):
Yeah, and maybe to go to the other example that I
shared of someone that I there'sa broken relationship there and
there doesn't seem to be thepossibility of reconciliation.
It's the same thing for me.
It's I want.
I want to have a clean heart.
So I asked God to keep my heartsoft, keep it clean.
I pray for reconciliation, butthe big difference with this one

(01:01:02):
is that the other person wouldhave to show that they're
wanting to meet in reality,Right, so there's some
guardrails in place, and I thinkthat brings us to a really
important question, which isalmost like reverse it for a
moment.
You know what do you do ifsomeone else wants to re-engage
relationally with you afterreconciliation, but you don't.

Speaker 3 (01:01:23):
So it feels like we're talking about how to
recalibrate relationship.
The word that comes to my mindhere is like you're
recalibrating I like that right.
So like to some extent, anytimeyou have a new relationship,
you meet someone at work, or youmeet someone in your community
or whatever.
I think you're calibrating.
What kind of relationship do Iwant?

Speaker 2 (01:01:40):
with this person.

Speaker 3 (01:01:41):
Do they seem safe?
Do they drain my energy?
Or are they life-giving to me?
Like how?
How much do I want to investand and and um, and grow into
like a deep relationship withthis person, and how much do I
maybe just want to stay on thesurface?
And so to me it seems like oncethere's been an event that
causes some hurt and requiressome forgiveness, you're kind of

(01:02:01):
recalibrating, like you're.
You're rethinking through.
What does this now look like inlight of the event that hurt me
?
And I think that that's goingto be again.
That's going to be a difficultquestion, it's going to take
work and it may require someboundaries.

Speaker 2 (01:02:18):
Yeah, I really like what you're saying, that word
recalibration and I think thatrequires getting clear, first
and foremost, about what I wantand what I don't want, and what
I'm willing to do and what I'mnot willing to do, and then that
informs boundaries, which iswhat you're naming, and I really

(01:02:40):
like that phrase.
That clarity is kindness, likebeing clear with someone else.
When you're doing that dance ofrecalibration, especially with
a preexisting relationship,there can be expectations or
assumptions being made aboutwhat we're returning to, and so
this work of getting clearyourself about what you're
wanting to do and not willing todo, and so on and so forth, is

(01:03:01):
a really important step that wecan't skip.
That then informs theboundaries and expectation
setting we need to do in thatrelationship.
And so I was thinking aboutthis like yes, yes to boundaries
based on what I want and don'twant, what I'm willing and not
willing to do.
Maybe it'd be helpful to talkthrough some categories of

(01:03:22):
boundaries that might be worthconsidering.
Yeah, so, for instance,communication there might be an
expectation that the otherperson has that we just jump
into communicating and textingall the time and so on and so
forth right, but you might wantto communicate differently or a
very minimal communicationmoving forward, you know what I

(01:03:43):
mean Absolutely.
What might that sound like?
I imagine it's something like Iwish you well, but I won't be
continuing with regular contactand I'd ask if you not reach out
to me, or something like that.
We just dealt with thisrecently.
We have someone who texted you,me and Josiah a bunch of really
long videos, and this personhas a history of sending sort of

(01:04:07):
like long monologues andthey're not helpful because they
don't allow for reciprocaldialogue, and unfortunately we
had to respond that way, bysaying, hey, this isn't the way
we prefer to communicate, andhere's why.

Speaker 3 (01:04:20):
Right, right.
Yeah, we weren't saying nocommunication, but we were
putting putting a boundaryaround the the way we
communicate.
Yeah, yeah, that feels like agood one.

Speaker 2 (01:04:31):
What else?
Yeah, maybe emotionalboundaries.
Especially if you were reallyclose to someone.
There might be this expectationthat you jump right into
reopening the vulnerable partsof yourself with this person
again, or maybe sharing detailsof how you're doing or how your
family's doing or whatever, andyou may say, hey, that's not

(01:04:52):
something I'm wanting to do, orit's too soon for that.
There may be a trust buildingseason before I reopen up
emotionally to you.
So that might sound somethinglike I'm going to be honest with
you.
I'm not at a place where I'mwilling to engage how we used to
.
I have forgiven you, but I'mnot wanting to return to the
emotional closeness that we hadbefore, at least not right now.

(01:05:17):
I think of time and spaceboundaries.
You might have had arelationship where you hung out
all the time or you shared a lotof space together, and now you
need to figure out well, whatdoes it look like to navigate,
how much time or exposure wehave to one another, and what if
they're part of your family,for instance, and you have an
upcoming gathering at Christmastime or whatever it might be?

(01:05:38):
It might be the case that youhave to do some expectation
setting or boundary work on thefront end to let them know what
you're willing and not willingto do, something like hey, I'm
planning to come to this eventfor a short time, but I'm going
to head out early, so that theyknow or just wanted to set the
expectation ahead of time thatI'm choosing to spend less time
in spaces that are draining forme right now.

(01:06:01):
I think access is the biggestone.
The biggest boundary whensomeone else wants relationship
with you and you're not at thatsame place, or not at that same
place yet is how much access areyou giving to them of yourself?

Speaker 3 (01:06:23):
Yeah, yeah.
I want to highlight two reallyimportant pieces of what you
just said, If I can, the firstbeing first take the time to
reflect on what it is that youneed and where you are Like it's
really important to sit backand go like, okay, where, how am
I reorienting to thisrelationship and what do I need?
That reflection is critical.
Don't expect yourself just tofigure it out in the moment when

(01:06:45):
you bump into them.
The second piece, and probablythe most important I think, is
clearly communicating.
How many times have you seen itplay out where there's two
people in conflict and maybethey sort of reconcile and then
they figure out what they needbut they're not actually
communicating it, and then theother person is left kind of
guessing, yes, and then theother person is left kind of
guessing, and even in some casesit becomes kind of like a power
struggle, Like, oh, I'm justgonna let you continue to try to

(01:07:07):
talk to me and I'm gonna kindof give you the cold shoulder or
ghost you or make you figureout where I'm at.
Maybe I'm in a different placetomorrow and yada, yada.
So I think it's reallyimportant to just go hey, here's
where I'm at.

Speaker 2 (01:07:17):
Yes, yeah, isn't kind at all If you know that there's
baked in assumptions orexpectations and neither of you
are communicating about them,and now you're playing games to
try to figure that out.
That is not kind or respectful.
And so what occurred to me aswe were talking about boundaries
, here is what we talked aboutin our emotional maturity series

(01:07:38):
, which is this is aboutself-differentiation, this is
about defining yourself andbeing connected in light of that
.
So you're defining here's whatI want, here's what.
So you're defining here's whatI want, here's what I'm willing
to do, here's what I'm notwilling to do, and here's what
that means in terms of stayingconnected to you.
Here's the level of connectionthat I'm willing to have.

Speaker 3 (01:07:56):
Yes, we did a whole episode on that.

Speaker 2 (01:07:58):
And I like what you said.
If you are trying to figurethat out in real time, while
staying connected to the otherperson, you're probably not
defining yourself very well andyou're going to probably maybe
have to step into reverse alittle bit.
So I do think there's asequence here, or a progression,
where you start with doing somework yourself to go what do I
want, what am I willing andwilling, not willing to do, and

(01:08:19):
then maybe initiating someconversations, and some of them
might be negotiable, dependingon the health of the
relationship or the emotionalsafety that's still there or not
.

Speaker 3 (01:08:30):
And what the other person needs.

Speaker 2 (01:08:31):
Exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:08:31):
There might be some reciprocity.

Speaker 2 (01:08:33):
there is what I mean.
Like you might be able to sayokay, yeah, I'll give you space
because I see that you need that, and you might, in the course
of dialogue, discover what eachother needs and be able to honor
each other by granting that.

Speaker 3 (01:08:46):
Yeah, yes, and it might change again over time.
You're recalibrating, you'resort of taking one step forward,
maybe staying there for a while, and then maybe it's another
step forward and another maybenot.

Speaker 2 (01:08:57):
Yep, All right.
Well, let's jump into it'spractice time.

Speaker 3 (01:09:03):
Practice podcast there we go?

Speaker 2 (01:09:06):
Josiah just left, but he was going to talk about this
first practice and it'sbuilding on what we just
discussed.
So what do you do if you have abroken relationship and you
want to be open toreconciliation?
Here are some practices for you.
The first practice is toclarify what you want, moving
forward everything we just gotdone talking about, I would

(01:09:29):
really encourage you to sit inGod's presence and to pray about
not just what you want and arewilling to do, but what God
might want you to do.
Not my will, but your will bedone.
I find that Psalm 139 is agreat prayer of examination.
Search me and know me, o God.
Test me and know my anxiousthoughts.
See if there's any offensiveway in me.

(01:09:50):
This is about laying yourselfopen to God's presence, allowing
him to examine you, soften yourheart and then, in light of
that, getting clear on what youwant, what you're willing and
not willing to do.

Speaker 3 (01:10:03):
Yes, believe it or not, we don't always have
perfect insight into exactlywhat's going on internally, so I
put myself first.

Speaker 2 (01:10:12):
Okay, you used we language so well.

Speaker 3 (01:10:16):
I'd like to think I'm not the only one.

Speaker 2 (01:10:17):
No, I'm with you.

Speaker 3 (01:10:17):
Yeah, that's a good one.
Practice Another practice Iwould say we also just touched
on initiate a conversationaround boundaries that's rooted
in truth.
I know boundaries conversationscan often be challenging and
even uncomfortable.
I think a lot of us just don'thave reps in this, and so maybe
we try and we come across toostrong or we avoid it because
we're scared of conflict orscared of hurting someone's

(01:10:40):
feelings or we don't want to beperceived as mean.
But these conversations arecrucial and they're honest,
right.
Being honest Isn't the samething as being mean.
You can be honest and be mean,um, but just being honest,
calibrating both grace and truthis is foundational for these
types of conversations.
So, again, start by gettinghonest with yourself.

(01:11:02):
What are you true?
What are you truly okay with?
What feels like a violation?
All of that, everything thatyou just talked about, and then
share that honesty with theother person.
Make sure you're communicatingyour boundaries clearly and
directly, without manipulationor passive aggressiveness.
You can say things like hey,rather than telling someone you
always call me so late, don'tcall me so late anymore, maybe

(01:11:24):
try saying hey, I need to set aboundary around phone calls
after 9 pm because I need timeto wind down.
Or, rather than saying hey, Ican't believe you expect me to
do this, say I'm feelingoverwhelmed and I'm not able to
take this on right now.
Just practice using Istatements and having grace in
how you communicate theboundaries that you need as you

(01:11:45):
move forward.
I think that I statements arereally important and can help
avoid putting the other personon the defensive.

Speaker 2 (01:11:53):
Does that make sense?
Yeah, boundaries are deliveredbest when you're naming truth
about yourself rather than truthabout the other person.

Speaker 3 (01:12:01):
Yes, and we did an episode on boundaries as well.
Yeah, help flush that out.

Speaker 2 (01:12:05):
That's right.
And then, finally, I would justsay look for signs of ownership
and trustworthiness.
Again, reconciliation requiresboth people and when trust has
been broken, it only can beregained in a healthy way
through consistent behavior overtime, over time.

(01:12:27):
So if someone has violated yourtrust, I would just encourage
you don't rush right back into afully trusting relationship
with that person.
Feel free to take it slow andwatch and see how they relate to
you over time and if they'rewanting to really work on the
relationship and they're wantingto be healthy, well they'll do
the work and, over time,demonstrate that they're
trustworthy and then you canbegin to trust them with more

(01:12:50):
and more.
But I often see people, in thename of reconciliation, jumping
right back into a trustingrelationship without doing the
full work, and it just leads tomore hurt in the future.
So I wanna say, hey, take itslow, be wise about this.
Trust is earned throughconsistent behavior over time
and you don't need to trustpeople who haven't demonstrated

(01:13:11):
that they're worthy of yourtrust.
That's unwise and will probablyresult in hurt.

Speaker 3 (01:13:16):
Yeah, it's a good word.

Speaker 2 (01:13:18):
All right.
Well, thanks for listeningtoday.
In our next episode, we'regoing to really close out this
series on forgiveness by talkingabout a concept named kingdom.
We call it kingdom Aikido.
Jesus doesn't just call us toforgive or reconcile.
Perhaps the ultimate challengeis that we're to love our
enemies.
So in our next episode we'regoing to talk about what this

(01:13:40):
actually looks like.
We'll see you next time.

Speaker 3 (01:13:57):
Praxis is recorded and produced at Crosspoint
Community Church.
Looks like We'll see you nexttime and, if you haven't already
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