God Is Like Jesus

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What comes into our minds when we think about God shapes everything else in our lives. Yet most of us carry distorted images of God that we've picked up from our upbringing, painful experiences, or cultural messages—images that create barriers to authentic relationship with him.

In this episode, we unpack five common misconceptions about God that might be operating beneath the surface of your faith: the Distant Deity who remains uninvolved, the Sovereign Puppet Master who controls everything, the Cosmic Cop who's always disappointed, the Vending Machine God who exists to fulfill our wishes, and the Passive Enabler who never confronts our destructive patterns.

These false images create profound spiritual consequences. They make us hide when we fail, blame God when we suffer, and live as functional atheists in our daily lives. But what if there's a clearer, more accurate picture?

We explore how Jesus provides the perfect revelation of God's character. Looking at Jesus shows us a God of cruciform love—self-giving, non-coercive, and deeply present—who moves toward us in our brokenness rather than away. This truth doesn't just correct our theology; it heals our hearts.

Whether you're struggling with disappointment in God, battling shame, or simply longing for a more authentic connection with your Creator, this conversation offers practical ways to examine your core beliefs and make Jesus your interpretive key. Because when we see God as truly like Jesus, everything changes.

Episode Transcript

Katie (00:02):
Welcome to Praxis, a podcast where we explore how to
practice and embody the way ofJesus in our everyday lives.
Thanks so much for taking thetime to listen.
So we're in a series right nowfocused on our mental models for
missional discipleship aframework for living out our
faith as disciples of Jesus ineveryday life.
Whether we're aware of it ornot, we all have mental models,

(00:23):
deep convictions and assumptionsthat shape how we see and take
action in the world.
Mental models are kind of likeprescription lenses While
they're often invisible whenwe're mirroring them, they
consistently shape the way wethink and feel and act.
So what were the mental modelsthat Jesus lived by?
What convictions shaped howJesus saw people, responded to

(00:45):
needs, formed disciples andjoined God's mission in the
world?
That's what this series is allabout.
Each week, we are unpacking akey conviction that shaped
Jesus's way of life, and thenwe're exploring how it can shape
ours too, as we seek to be acommunity of disciples living on
mission in the way of Jesus.
And today we're going to lookat the third core conviction,

(01:05):
and it's this God is like Jesus.
Let's get into it.

Mac (01:23):
Well, welcome podcasters.
My name is Mac, I'm Katie, I'mJosiah, so I want to get us
chatting a little bit, and onequestion I thought of and I
don't know the answer for eitherone of you is what is the worst
job you've ever had?

Katie (01:38):
Oh, I know mine easy.
I worked on an assembly lineone summer in a factory making
little Dunkerers syrups.

Josiah (01:47):
Did you guys know this about me?

Katie (01:50):
With yeah.
Shout out to Melissa Schmidtthat goes to our church.
She and I worked it together,which made it kind of fun Like
sure You're working with afriend working with a friend.
But yeah, we had to wear hairnuts and we had literally stood
on a line and we had littlecardboard like cardboard slots
with three holes and we'd putthose.
They're like individual syruppacks that you could think of
dunking French toast sticks into.

(02:12):
You open it up and you coulddunk them in there and you'd put
three right side up and thenflip three upside down and then
you'd put it through the gluegun machine and hopefully not
burn your finger and it was likeeight hours, maybe 10 hour
shift.
It was long days in the summer.

Mac (02:27):
What inspired you to apply for that job.

Katie (02:29):
Nothing.
I just needed a job.
I had worked at a coffee shopfor the past couple of years,
like through high school, andthen my summer, right before I
was going to college, the coffeeshop changed management, so I
just needed a job.
I was just desperate, and jobsweren't as easy to come by as
they are now.
Now it's like high schoolerscan work anywhere, um, and I was
going to be going to Europe forthe end of summer, so I had.
I just needed something for acouple months to make money.

Mac (02:52):
That is hilarious.

Josiah (02:54):
That's funny, sheesh.
Yeah, I, I don't know, I have alot of terrible jobs.
Maybe this is more about how Iabout how I relate to boring
jobs.
You know, like that they allseem terrible.
I did have I worked at a truckstop.
That wasn't great, it was likea pilot travel center.

Mac (03:18):
What did you do there?

Josiah (03:19):
Well, everything Cashier sometimes.
But Do you have to clean thebathrooms?

Katie (03:23):
Yeah, oh God, and clean the showers oh, that might be
worse than the assembly sothat's far worse.

Josiah (03:32):
That sounds nasty.
I will say that the the women'sbathrooms were always dirtier
than the men's, though I alwaysthought that was interesting,
that kind of oh, that'sinteresting but no, there was
some.
There were some doozies ofstories where you walk in and
you're just like what happenedin here.

Mac (03:47):
Oh gross, so gross.

Josiah (03:50):
I didn't care for that and it was 24 hours, so
sometimes you'd have to worklike the third shift and you're
there in the middle of the nightand no one's there, and it's
torture.

Katie (04:00):
Yeah, was that in high school?

Josiah (04:03):
No, actually that was when I came back from spending
the year abroad in Sydney.

Mac (04:13):
That was the first job I got, because I just needed
something, yeah, so there's acommon theme here, which is
desperation.
I was also desperate for a job,and it was a wonky situation
because it was right after Igraduated from college and
before Josie and I got married.
It was like less than eightweeks.
So you just need something youknow, to step into and Josie's
brother worked at this doorcompany called Hardwood and it

(04:37):
was the worst job I've ever had.
First of all, it was veryphysically demanding, so it was
hard, like you had to plane woodboards and all this stuff.
But the boss you guys was likehad the shortest.
I mean he was constantlyblowing his fuse, losing his
sauce, yelling.
He had to have been on drugsmost of the time and you didn't

(04:57):
know if you were going to getpaid or not, because he wasn't
good with managing the flow ofcash through the organization.

Josiah (05:03):
It's terrible.

Mac (05:04):
It was horrible.
I was glad when that was overand, quite frankly, we made one
really cool door.
It was like a custom door, butthe rest of them were really
crummy.

Josiah (05:15):
You didn't feel good about your work product.

Mac (05:16):
No, I didn't feel good about what we were doing.
It was all this cheap particlestuff and then you just put a
thin veneer on the top.
Okay, real quick.

Josiah (05:25):
All this like cheap particle stuff, and then you
just put a thin veneer on thetop, you know.
So Well, okay, real quick.
What's?

Katie (05:32):
the favorite part-time, meaningless job you had.

Josiah (05:35):
Working at coffee shops.

Katie (05:36):
I worked at what's now Java Hut downtown.

Josiah (05:38):
Yeah.

Katie (05:38):
WDG Beans and then in college worked at Starbucks and,
yeah, I always loved it.

Mac (05:43):
Domino's Pizza man.
Yeah, I knew that was youranswer.
You talked about yeah.

Josiah (05:48):
I, um, I did, I worked.
You mentioned the physicallabor.
I worked.
Uh, I did roofing for a summerand you liked it.
I don't know, I loved it.
Wow, it's just something aboutthe shuts your brain off when
you're just like working withyour hands and your body.

Katie (06:05):
You know like it could be hot.

Josiah (06:07):
It was hot.
But it was a couple of myfriends and they were.
They were idiots, and the bosswas a Jehovah's witness who was
convinced he was one of the144,000.
He would talk to us about it.
So that was kind of fun.
I love encountering people likethat.

Mac (06:23):
Yeah, Well, speaking of assembly lines, you know, and
interesting jobs we're-.

Katie (06:32):
Indoors.

Mac (06:32):
Yeah, we've got a fun conversation lined up today.
I'm excited about it.

Katie (06:36):
We do.

Josiah (06:36):
Yeah, yeah, so we're in this series.
We're focused on the mentalmodels of missional discipleship
.
These mental models serve as aframework for living out our
faith as disciples of Jesus ineveryday life.
They're like lenses thatdictate how we see and interpret
things, convictions that keepus focused on the right things.

(06:57):
So in each episode we'reexploring some of these core
convictions, our mental models,these truths and convictions
that anchor us and guide us aswe go about being a community of
disciples who live on missionin the way of Jesus.
But, as we're finding out,these aren't just our mental
models.
We believe that these were thecore convictions that guided

(07:19):
Jesus as well.
Jesus had these same lenses onwhen making and multiplying
disciples to join God's missionin the world.
So far, we've covered two ofthem right.
The first was God's presenceprecedes our participation, and
the second was God bends to meetus in reality.
And today we're going to unpacka third one that's central to

(07:43):
missional discipleship that Godis like Jesus, and we're going
to see how this convictionreally does change everything.

Mac (07:52):
Yeah, can I say this, josiah, your beard's looking
awesome.
Oh yeah, thanks.

Katie (07:58):
Does it look different than normal?

Mac (07:59):
No, it's just filling in nicely.
I mean, I feel like-.

Josiah (08:02):
I adjusted my trimmer up two millimeters, okay, yeah,
well, it's making a bigdifference.
Keep going, okay.
I mean, uh, I did adjust.

Mac (08:05):
I adjusted my trimmer up two millimeters, okay, yeah,
well, it's making a bigdifference.
Keep going, okay, um, I went tomean shorter or longer, longer.
Yeah, there it is.
I knew I noticed something.
I, uh, so I, this is a big deal.
I went to um.
I went to Bethel university formy undergrad and majored in
biblical studies and theology.
And I remember my very firsttheology class I had to take.
It was during my sophomore year.

(08:26):
I had this professor named PaulEddy and the guy is just
brilliant.
He ended up being one of myfavorite profs.
I had Took him as much as Icould.
He was so knowledgeable.
But my very first day hestarted the class with this AW
Tozer quote and AW Tozer wasactually a CMA guy from our
denomination.

(08:48):
He said what comes into ourminds when we think about God is
the most important thing aboutus.
What comes into your mind whenyou think about God is the most
important thing about you.
And then the professor justsaid and the rest of this class
is gonna be focused on youanswering that question and
cause this is what theology isall about what comes into your

(09:09):
mind when you think about God isthe most important thing about
you.
So I think at the start of thisepisode I kind of I just wanna
name like pretty mucheverybody's doing theology, like
everybody when they think, whenthey hear the word God,
something comes to mind, and sowe're all carrying around
thoughts or ideas about what Godis like or what God isn't like.

(09:30):
In fact, I remember in adifferent class, an apologetics
course.
They gave us this little toolwhere it was like hey, if you
ever encounter an atheist whosays they don't believe in God,
ask them what kind of God don'tyou believe in, and they'll
often be able to fill out things.
They'll have a description and,more often than not, you'll
probably be able to agree withthem.
I also don't believe that Godis like that or that a God like

(09:54):
that exists.
The point is is that I justthink that we all are doing
theology, we're all carryingaround ideas about God in our
brains, some of which may beaccurate, but some of which
probably aren't accurate, andthat leads to this obvious
problem of projection that wetend to take our circumstances

(10:18):
or experiences usually negativeones and then project those onto
heaven, assuming that mycircumstances reveal God's
character or what God's like,and then we run around with
crummy ideas about God in ourbrains, which very much
influences how we relate ordon't relate to God, and so

(10:39):
let's just pause there and go.
Are you guys tracking with whatI'm saying, like everybody's
doing theology?
Just pause there and go.
Are you guys tracking with whatI'm saying, like everybody's
doing theology?
It's a mixed bag.
Some of us have good things,things we get right, some of us
don't, and we have this problemwith projecting onto God things
that probably aren't accurate.

Katie (10:54):
Yeah.

Mac (10:55):
Do you guys see that too?

Katie (10:56):
Yeah, it's timely that we're having this conversation
today, cause I literally justhad a conversation with someone
recently about how pivotal thisidea was for her.
She shared how, mac, you'veshared this idea before and you
must have shared it in a sermonin the past year or so.
I don't know mine about how ouridea of God will determine how

(11:20):
we relate to him, and she justnarrated how she had this idea
of God that he was constantlylooking down kind of
disappointed her in her for allher failures and mistakes and
just had lots of shame andsomething about like that
concept.
And then really the parable ofthe prodigal father, the
prodigal son, prodigal father,kind of chasing after his
wayward children and going afterthem in love, allowed her to

(11:43):
relate to God in a totallydifferent way and come before
him and that actually led to herkind of receiving the
restoration and the love thatshe longed for but hadn't been
able to receive it because shedidn't actually see this picture
of God as wanting to give it.

Mac (11:59):
Yeah, yeah, that's amazing.
So I see that, yeah, I mean as apastor, I experience this
pretty much constantly whenthere's tragedy.
I mean, given that I've beenpastoring for a long time, I've
seen some hard stuff, Like I'vebeen one of the first responders

(12:20):
on a suicide, I've been with acouple who lost one child and
then lost a second child, justnine months old, from cancer
just heartbreaking.
I've been there when people dieof cancer, despite praying for
an opposite outcome for monthsand months.
I just witnessed a lot of hardstuff marital upsets and broken

(12:42):
relationships and horriblediagnoses or whatever.
The number one thing thatpeople often struggle with, in
addition to the loss or thegrief, is just like how do I
make sense of God in light ofthis experience, these
horrendous circumstances,especially if we just look
globally?
It's like you know what I mean.
People are asking that questionall the time, given what's

(13:05):
happening overseas and all theconflicts, and like where is God
in light of all of this?

Josiah (13:10):
You know what I mean.
Yeah, yeah, when we go throughstuff and our frame of God gets
disrupted or shaken, I thinkit's sort of proof that we've
been projecting some things fromour circumstances, Like when
everything lined up and ourcircumstances were the way that
we thought they should be, thenGod's fine.
But when they aren't now, God'slike hey, God like what, what,

(13:35):
what gives?
I think we we often do thiswith our what gives yeah?
for real.
But uh, we do this with ourfirst formation a lot Like our,
our family of origin, very like,I think.
We subconsciously do it likefrom a psychological perspective
, like all the time and weproject onto other relationships
as well.
But we do it with God, like theway I was parented might have a

(14:01):
strong might give me a strongsense of how God is like a
parent to me.

Katie (14:06):
Oh, interesting, so like if I like.

Josiah (14:09):
I'm often going to relate to God the way I related
to my earthly father right, so Ithink that's a strong one too,
For sure For sure.

Mac (14:26):
So I wanted to just sort of set the table to say we're all
doing theology.
We tend to project things ontoGod that aren't true about God,
or at least we need to be awareof that tendency.
My friends, our friends MattTebbe and Ben Sternke, have an
entire chapter on this, whatwe're going to be talking about
today in their book Having theMind of Christ, which is just an
awesome book.
We went through it as apreaching team and just so I
just recommend it.

(14:46):
It's a great book.
But they said this deep in ourbones all of us believe things
about God that we would nevercircle as the right answer on a
theology test.
So part of this, you guys, ifyou're gonna join this
conversation today, you justgotta kind of acknowledge that,
Like, I probably believe somethings about God that I wouldn't
circle.
I know the answer is this andyet, deep down, my public belief

(15:11):
is this.
I'd say this, but my privateand even my core belief actually
might be something different.
And so we all have these falsebeliefs, these distorted ideas
about God that we kind of carryaround.
We have some bad theology.
And so, going back to Matt andBen, I love how they say this.

(15:32):
They go.
Sometimes the hardest part oflearning who God is is to
unlearn who God is not.
So that's part of what I hopewe can do in our conversation
today is just to acknowledge weall are carrying around probably
some bad ideas about God andour first step is to sort of
unlearn what those are, so thatwe can maybe move toward a more

(15:54):
accurate understanding of whoGod is and how God relates to us
.

Josiah (15:59):
Yeah, no, I was gonna say before we get into them.
I would invite the listener tojust take a second and be
willing to acknowledge that thisis actually one of the more
difficult parts of discipleship,I would say, or at least in
helping train people, like inour discipleship curriculum.

(16:19):
This is what we do Constantunpacking of bad news that isn't
good news right.
And I would say the primaryhangup is people being willing
to admit when their view of Godis wrong.
Yes, and it's not fromnecessarily an intellectual

(16:40):
perspective as much as it isbeing willing to admit that I
believed something about Godthat wasn't true about him.
It feels really exposing.
So I'd say, if you're, listening, take a second and just like be
willing to admit when thesethings are at play in your life,
um, because it's, it's sort ofthe, it's the breeding ground

(17:00):
for, um, maybe the fruit Godwants to produce in your life.

Mac (17:04):
Building on.
Last week, remember we talkedabout how God stoops to meet us
in reality.
This is what that's about.
It's about getting honest withwhat we really think and believe
so that God can meet us thereand then speak to it.
I was once in a leadershipintensive leading a group and
there was this woman who wasclearly there's something going

(17:26):
on, there's something going oninternally.
I was once in a leadershipintensive leading a group and
there was this woman who wasclearly there's something going
on, there's something going oninternally, and we were kind of
giving her permission to behonest and this I think it went
on for a couple of weeks andthen she had like this moment
where she totally lost it in thegroup.

Katie (17:39):
Lost it how?

Mac (17:40):
Like just had this like almost overwhelming breakdown of
honesty, where she got up andstarted pacing around the room
and then said you know what, I'meffing angry at God.
And then it came out.
That's what she said I'm effingangry at God.
And everybody looked at her andshe couldn't believe she said

(18:02):
it.
And then she said it again, andthen a third time.
It was like this catharsis thatshe finally got it out I'm
angry.
And then when she had hermeltdown moment, it got really
quiet and everybody without likenobody did it first, everybody
simultaneously started clappingfor her because we were like
this is it?

(18:22):
You've got something going onthat's in in obstructing how
you're relating to God and youfinally got it out on the table
and this is a safe place for youto do that.
Now.
We can love you in this moment.
Thank you for being honest.
You're angry at God and God canhandle your anger.

Katie (18:40):
Yeah, yeah, and she just didn't feel like she had
permission to name it.
Yeah, I hear you guys bothsaying it's important to get
honest and to admit, and I mightsubmit that even sometimes
there's a step before that,which is just getting aware.
Like I know, when I firstencountered this material, I was
like, well, I don't think anyof these things about God, and
it really took me some time torecognize how these beliefs were

(19:00):
showing up.
So sometimes I think we're justnot maybe in tune of how we're
holding some of these beliefs.

Mac (19:05):
Yeah, so we have five most common ways people get God wrong
and we're gonna go over thosewith you.
But if you need some extra likeencouragement, to be honest, I
will name that for me.
I still can be drawn into everysingle one of these.
So just I'm right there withyou, you can be honest.

(19:26):
Every single one of these.
So just I'm right there withyou, you can be honest.
We all struggle with these andyet they do very much block an
accurate understanding of Godfrom our perspective.

Katie (19:35):
Yeah, yeah, and if you've gone through one of our
year-long leadership intensivesat Crosspoint, these will sound
familiar to you.
Like you said, josiah, this is akey part of how we move through
discipleship here.
So maybe a first sort ofmisconception about God I would
name is what we call the distantdeity, and this is this idea
that God is kind of like animpersonal force out there.

(19:57):
He's kind of more like aspiritual energy than like a
real, like a personal being.
The idea of the distant deityhas this idea of God that he's
uninvolved, emotionally detached, unmoved by human pain, doesn't
really speak or move or respond, but just this idea of kind of
being absent or uninterested, asif God sort of created the

(20:19):
world and then just stepped backand watch it all unfold.
I think I see this play outquite a bit, especially maybe in
circles where Christianity issort of more cultural, like this
idea that like, yeah, I'm aChristian because I, you know,
practice Easter and Christmasand do certain things, but it's
more like a set of practices ortraditions or maybe even beliefs

(20:41):
that I hold, but not like acommunion with God.
What would you guys say?

Josiah (20:46):
Yeah, I'd say I see this .
The way this plays out is itoften creates this sacred
secular divide that like thereare things I do in life that
involve myself in the sacred orthe things God does, but most of
my life is spent void of God'spresence and his involvement.
Like if I go to work, I'm of mylife is spent void of God's
presence and his involvement,Like if I go to work, I'm not

(21:07):
assuming God is at work and inmy workplace I'm going to do
that and I do my church dutybecause that like attributes
something to God on Sundaymornings and the rest of the
week is kind of lived apart fromhim.

Katie (21:19):
God lives at church, and that's it, yeah.

Mac (21:22):
Can I say something for me?
I think that this is still onethat I have a hard time with,
and there's sort of maybe a fewtimes that this idea that God is
a distant deity sort of rearsits head for me.
One is in desperate moments, indesperate moments, in moments

(21:47):
where I'm sort of up againstsomething that feels really hard
and isn't being resolved andmaybe even feels like it's just
getting worse.
It's so tempting for me to golike where are you, god?
Like don't you care?
Like the disciples in the boatwhen Jesus is sleeping, he's
like don't you care that we'reabout to drown.
I'll say for me, when I'm in themiddle, like I think about my
voice issues which are stillsort of there, but a couple of

(22:09):
years ago I couldn't talk forlike two months, and every day
I'm just like God, you've pleaseheal me, and it's just not
getting better.
And you're just like God where?
Like don't you care?
Where are you?
Are you even here?
And so I think sometimes, whenwe're really up against it in

(22:29):
life, it's so tempting to go.
If God cared, we assume itwould mean this, and because
this isn't happening, well, godmust be absent, you following,
yeah.
And so I just named that formyself.
I feel like a strong pulltowards this idea that God is
distant or doesn't care whenlife it feels overwhelming and

(22:51):
like it's not getting better.

Katie (22:54):
Yeah, the assumption being, if he cared, he'd fix it.

Mac (22:57):
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
I think another time, if I'mhonest, and I'm actually going
to preach on this in Septemberit's the problem of God's
hiddenness.
There's a classic problem intheology called the hiddenness
of God, which has to do withlike, if God is present and at
work and meets us in reality,why does it sometimes seem like

(23:18):
nothing's there, like you'retalking to nothing but air?
Why is that?
In other words, if God wants tohave a personal relationship
with us and really cares aboutus and wants to experience
intimacy with us, why is it that, despite our best effort, often
at times, and creating tons ofspace to be with God, you still

(23:39):
often don't feel anything, youdon't sense anything, and that
can also reinforce I know for me, I've had to work through that
that can reinforce this ideathat because I'm not feeling
anything or sensing something,maybe God isn't really present
here Does that make sense.
So I think there's a lot ofcircumstantial components that

(24:00):
can contribute to this idea thatGod is a distant deity not only
hardship or the lack ofexperiencing his presence, but
also, as you named, culturally.
We're just sort of conditionedto operate as functional
atheists.
Where there's this seculardivide, I do my job, where
that's on me, this is my life,and then this is sort of the
pocket on Sunday where God'spresent and I'm engaged.

(24:22):
But there's sort of a sharpcompartmentalization or
separation between these two,which does really bad work.
Okay, so one misconception isthis distant deity.
A second one I would name isthis idea that God is sort of a
sovereign puppet master.
This one, I think, is supercommon in the church.

(24:43):
I encounter it, quite frankly,all the time, and it's rooted in
a certain view of God'ssovereignty.
That God's sovereignty meansGod is perfectly in control, and
so the idea is God is sort ofcontrolling everything, he's
micromanaging everything, and sothat means everything must
happen for a reason.
You guys encounter this one atall.
How many times have you heardthat you guys encounter this one

(25:05):
at all?
How many times have you heardthat you guys experienced this
one?

Katie (25:09):
Oh yeah.

Mac (25:10):
And kind of going back to the difficult experience thing,
like when you're facing the lossof a loved one or a child or
some of the things I mentionedearlier.
I've noticed that when peopleare facing incredible tragedy or
human suffering, overwhelmingcircumstances, or even looking
at the state of the world, likeI mentioned before, Some people

(25:30):
draw on this sentiment in a waythat, like I don't know, seems
to help them.
Well, God's in control, andthey get some degree of comfort
from that.
I'm going to say this to thedegree we mean that God is still
on the throne.
Yes and amen.
But I'm going to confess to youthat I have never really found a

(25:52):
whole lot of comfort in thesentiment that God is in control
when facing horriblecircumstances in my life.
Because if that's true, thatGod is perfectly in control and
I'm sitting in horriblecircumstances, like watching a
nine month old take their lastbreaths, then that means that
God is the one who isresponsible for these horrible

(26:12):
circumstances, and I don't findthat comforting at all.
In fact, I find it very hard tolove a God that would be
controlling something like that.
So for me that's actually moreof an impediment to my faith
than something that is likecomforting or encouraging to me.

Katie (26:30):
Yeah, it's almost as if, in saying God is in control,
we're implying that God iscontrolling everything.

Mac (26:37):
Yeah, yeah Right.
It's rooted in determinism andlike a fatalism that, like God,
is sort of preordained andcontrolling everything that
happens and, as we're going tosee later on, just kind of plant
a seed.
If Jesus actually reveals whatGod is like, that is not at all
what we see Jesus doing.

Josiah (26:56):
Yeah my life is.
I like to believe in a fate,that my life is going to mean
something and that I have acertain amount of significance
and one day it might beactualized.

(27:17):
Right, if I reach to this pointand God is like leading me on
all of these steps and I'm like,okay, god, you got this.
Like Jesus, take the wheel.

Mac (27:30):
Have you seen that meme of there's like a meme with Jesus
standing by a wall with allthese wheels.

Josiah (27:35):
That he's taking.

Katie (27:35):
It's really funny.
It's still a good song, yeah,yeah.

Josiah (27:44):
I think I want to believe that.
And so it starts to I don'tknow like little things I can
find myself going through, likeyou get stuck in traffic and you
don't get somewhere on time andin your mind you're like, well,
maybe that needed to happen inorder for this to happen, and
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
So I am tempted to want tobelieve that and it's great when

(28:08):
things are good, if things workout.
I have some circumstances in mylife that they weren't great,
but I clearly can see there wasa redemptive arc to things that
were happening.
So it's nice to think of itthat way.
But when things aren't goinggreat, then you start blaming
God right and for things that hedidn't do.

Katie (28:32):
That's right.
Yeah, this makes me think ofsomething I recently heard
someone say.
There was a woman who hadn'thad children even though she
really wanted them, and she saidGod has destined me for
childlessness for his purposes,something like that.

Mac (28:49):
The blessing of infertility .

Katie (28:51):
Yeah, right, and it just made me think, like you know
look, I could be wrong I'mwilling to hold my beliefs with
some level of humility.
But I just hear that and I go.
I don't know that we can becertain that, like when she was
born, god looked at her and saidlike you are going to be
childless Now can God use thatAbsolutely Like?
Can God use that to shape yourcharacter and-.

Josiah (29:14):
Yeah, and stories of adoption and things, kids that
were in brokenness.

Katie (29:17):
There's all sorts of ways to use that situation to join
God's redemptive work in theworld 100%, but I don't know
that that means that, like whenshe was born, god closed her
womb for whatever reason.

Mac (29:31):
Using something and working within circumstances is a
different thing causingsomething to happen and we still
have theological questions wehave to wrestle through, which
have to do with okay, even ifGod didn't cause this, then why
would God allow this?
What kind of God would allowthis?
And we can obviously there'slots to discuss there, but I

(29:52):
think you named something that Iwant to highlight, which is
oftentimes, with this depictionof God that God is sort of this
sovereign puppet master with adivine blueprint and everything
sort of happening according toGod's perfect plan, we end up
attributing things to God thatprobably don't have their source

(30:13):
in God, and we do so with alevel of certainty that I don't
think we should have, and wealso, in doing so, ignore the
ridiculous amount of complexitythat scripture seems to point to
that would offset those things.
It's very clear to me that inscripture, there are factors,
actors and forces that are verymuch opposing God's will and

(30:37):
God's way in the world, and sonot everything that's happening
is actually happening accordingto God's perfect plan.
Otherwise let's just be honestJesus wouldn't have to come and
he certainly wouldn't teach usto pray.
Your kingdom come.
Your will be done on earth asit is in heaven, because
everything already would bebeing perfectly done on earth as
it is in heaven.

(30:58):
We're living in a cosmic,spiritual warfare between good
and evil, light and darkness,spiritual warfare between good
and evil, light and darkness.
And if we look at the fall andbrokenness, my goodness,
infertility is one of thosethings.
It's one of those things that,to me, is a clear remnant or
byproduct of the power of sin atwork in a broken world.

(31:20):
It's not part of God's good andideal and perfect plan.
Make sense, yeah, so we'll getinto this more, but I'm just
naming a second common pitfallthat we project onto God, which
is that God's this control freak, perfectly controlling
everything, and I named earlier.

(31:40):
I get pulled into all of these.
So I've deconstructed this onea lot theologically, but I'll
tell you there are still timeswhen I know God isn't coercive
and controlling.
I know that, I know God isnon-coercive love and he works
through influence, but whencircumstances are crummy, my
prayers are often assuming Godcould just pull a control lever

(32:01):
and change everything.
So anyway, yeah, distant deity,sovereign puppet master.

Josiah (32:14):
Yeah, a third one we'll name is that God is a cosmic cop
, that he's like a policeofficer enforcing rules.
This frame sort of points toGod as primarily like a rule
enforcer and that God is likeall about the rules, cares

(32:35):
mostly about what you do, andGod makes the rules and he's the
one enforcing them as well.
This frame also points out thatGod is always watching, ready
to catch you doing somethingwrong, to catch you in the act
and to shame you and to punishyou if you do so.

(32:55):
There's like a.
I think one of the moresinister natures I should say
the more sinister parts of thisis that when we view God this
way, it seems like ourrelationship to God is largely
it largely hangs on whether wefollow the rules or not.
So God's love is essentiallyconditional that God's going to

(33:18):
track our successes and failuresand then he's going to base his
love for us on a certain levelof performance.
And I think, when I look backat my life, when I was a
teenager.
I think this is one that I havestruggled with the most in my
life.

Mac (33:36):
Why do you think that is?

Josiah (33:37):
Yeah, well, I think I've since deconstructed it enough.
It still comes up, though as ateenager I mean I grew up in
church so I don't reallyremember a certain point when I
had like a conversion moment.
But I struggled with plenty ofvices, just like anybody does,

(33:58):
and I was always like this fearwould settle in when I made a
bad mistake, like I felt scaredto go to God.
I would try to avoid eventhinking about God.
I felt scared to go to God.
I would try to avoid eventhinking about God when I messed
up.
My first reaction has alwaysbeen, when I make a mistake, was

(34:18):
to hide that, like I don't wantanyone to know that was.
You know whether that was withmy parents at the time or with
God.
And yeah, it always just feltlike God was mad at me whenever
I sinned.
It's like disappointed, like oh, you were doing so good and now
you screwed up.

(34:40):
So I don't know.
This one was long a struggleand I'm getting better at it,
but it's not always, it's stillthere.

Mac (34:47):
Yeah, yeah.
I imagine if we had a theologytest that said multiple choice
what is godlike?
And one of them was a cosmiccop, most of us would know don't
circle that one yeah right.
But here's the thing aboutgetting to our core beliefs.
Our public beliefs are whatwe'd circle on the theology test

(35:10):
.
Our core beliefs are revealedbased on our behavior.
What we actually do shows whatwe really think and believe in
our lives and about God.
And so the litmus test for thisone is what do you do when you
mess up?
Like you're describing, josiah,when you make a mistake and we
talked last episode aboutlearning to hug your cactus,

(35:33):
those prickly parts, you knowmoving towards those and
embracing those, knowing God'swaiting for you there.
And if I had my guess, it's amixed bag for all of us.
Like I know, god's love isn'tconditioned upon my moral
performance, that it doesn'trise and fall each moment based
on how I'm doing.
And yet, just like you in highschool, josiah, if I'm honest,

(35:54):
when I mess up, when I make amistake, when I'm not at my best
, well, it's not always my firstinclination to run into the
arms of mercy.
I know it's there, but inreality there's still that
default to try to hide and tonot want to face it.
And right, oh yeah, so I thinkthis one runs deep.

Katie (36:16):
Oh it does.
Yeah, I can see it in myselffor sure.
I also have a really goodfriend that I can see as kind of
.
This is her primary MO and youknow, she, she kind of lived
under this guilt and shame andalways tried she would make
comments like I'm trying, I'mtrying and this faith thing just
isn't working for me.

(36:36):
And what happened is she endedup walking away from faith
altogether, which is actually, Ithink, a really common.
I have plenty of friends Icould point to that have
followed that trajectory andwhen you look at it it kind of
makes sense.
Look at it.
It kind of makes sense, causeif you're living under that
guilt and shame of constantlyhaving to to perform and play by
the rules and not mess up, theonly way to get free from that

(36:56):
burden is to just walk away.

Mac (36:58):
Right.
I mean, if you had a friend whois doing that, you'd probably
go.
This isn't a healthy friendship.
Right To constantly have youryou like, right right right.
We probably put some boundariesin place to limit that kind of.

Katie (37:08):
Right.
Who wants to live under thatforever?

Josiah (37:11):
That's true.
Yeah, it's tough.
I think this one runs deep in alot of circles.
I know that some of this wasnot just me thinking something
on my own.
It was definitely formed in meat a younger age.
At a younger age, I just thinkthe circles I swam in.
The primary mode ofdiscipleship was behavior

(37:37):
correction.
Right right, that being adisciple meant you become better
at doing things and you sinless.
And so when you struggle withsin, it's like when you're doing
good, it's like okay, I fit.
And so when you struggle withsin, it's like when you're doing
good, it's like okay, I fit.
And when you don't now, it'slike you feel like a cutoff from
even the whole community.

Mac (37:56):
Right, you mentioned first formation, and I would imagine
we still have a couple morethings we tend to project on God
, examining how you grew up andwhat kind of home you
experienced, because that verymay well play into which one of
these is most predominant foryou.
If you grew up with parents whowere largely absent and absent

(38:19):
and didn't care about you, well,the distant deity thing might
be.
If you had parents that werereally controlling, well then
this might the second one.
If you had parents that werevery strong on right and wrong
and behavior and you felt liketheir love was conditional,
right, you can see, it's not ahard leap to go up.
That probably shaped the way Iview God.

Josiah (38:39):
Yeah, and not all of it is.
I mean, people are people.
They're not perfect.
So even parents who are doingtheir best are probably still
going to project some of thesethings onto you and form you in
ways.
My dad is an Enneagram 1, so hedidn't make a lot of mistakes.
It just seemed like the thingsthat I struggled with weren't a

(39:00):
problem for him, and I know thatI had to do something healthy,
like hey, I'm not wired the sameway and if I make more mistakes
than him, I'm not less worthyof love.
So it's been good.
But like observing that hasbeen healthy for me to see.
Oh, this is shame talking.
This is like this is viewingGod differently.
That's not the face he's makingat me right now.

Katie (39:22):
Yeah, yeah, that's a good point about first formation,
and I'm laughing a little bitbecause the next one that I want
to name, if I had to guess howmy kids see me, it's probably
this one, and it's the vendingmachine God.
Oh yeah, like Mom, I want this,I want that, I want that.
So the vending machine God is,we could say, probably like an

(39:42):
American favorite.

Mac (39:43):
Like Oprah, you get it.

Katie (39:45):
You get it, yeah, yeah.
And it's just this idea that weuse God to improve our lives,
kind of this prosperity gospelidea.
Alex and I were watching a TVpreacher one time and I don't
know, just for fun, I guess andhe literally said verbatim God
doesn't want you to be stuck inmiddle management, he wants you

(40:05):
to move up and be an executive.
And we looked at each other.
We were like wait, what Comeagain.
So I think it's just like wehave this idea that God wants me
to live my best life and be mybest self and he wants health
and success and comfort and aslong as I do what I'm supposed
to do, he'll deliver on thispromise to make me happy and

(40:26):
healthy and wealthy and all ofthat.
So I feel like I see this one alot.
If I'm honest, it's probablythe one where I do struggle the
most.
I can see myself going here forsure.
So I'm not just ripping on theTV preacher, although I guess I
am in middle management and I'mvery happy.

Mac (40:42):
I don't know what would you guys say to that one.
God wants you to move up.
That's funny, and this isconnected to the previous one,
because the way a vendingmachine works is you like put in
coins and then you get backwhat you want.
You type in the numbers orwhatever and boop out.
This pops and, with this view,often it's hey, the thing I'm

(41:02):
putting in the coinage I'mputting in is prayer or giving
or whatever behavior, and thenthat produces this response,
sort of a quid pro quo.
And yes, in a culture, in anAmerican culture, where it's all
about, like, upward mobilityand climbing the ladder of

(41:23):
success and improving my life,it's easy to sort of then treat
God as I do these things so thatI can get this kind of a life.
But even those like us who areserving in a church, I still
struggle with this too, causeit's like the coins I'm putting
in the slot are like but I'vegiven my life to you.
Like you know, I've got my my,my entire life is revolving

(41:47):
around serving you.
So couldn't you like make thisa little easier.

Katie (41:51):
You know what I mean.

Mac (41:51):
Certainly it produced.
And yet I know, like Jesus diedon a cross, all of the
disciples were martyred fortheir faith.
Like I know this, but it'sstill like this momentum to go.
Hey, doesn't this thing I'mdoing for you, or whatever, mean
something better?

Katie (42:09):
Yeah.

Mac (42:09):
You know, yeah.

Josiah (42:11):
Yeah, I think this one is very influenced by our
Western culture.
I think the the idea that ofwhat success looks like.
So is it.
Is it wrong to think that Godwants me to be um fulfilled and
and to live a life that'smeaningful and impactful and to

(42:33):
be happy and at peace?
No, it's not wrong, but mypicture of what that looks like
really doesn't look like the wayof Jesus, and the way of Jesus
needs to sort of transcendcultural lines.
Needs to sort of transcendcultural lines.
If my view of what it lookslike to live in the way of Jesus

(42:54):
can only be done so in anaffluent area in Midwestern
Wisconsin, then it's probablyinaccurate.

Mac (43:01):
Yeah, it seems like we get.
This is probably anotherpodcast entirely, but we get
what the what scripture says andwhat God wants for us with
regard to freedom.
Totally wrong In our culture.
It's freedom to pursue what uswith regard to freedom totally
wrong.
In our culture it's freedom topursue what I want, to act on my
desires, but in scripture it'slike freedom from disordered

(43:21):
desires so that we can befaithful to the way of Jesus and
in a culture that prioritizesour own happiness, whatever's
gonna make you happy.
And oftentimes our happiness is, in our culture, connected to
disordered desires.
It's actually leading to deeperenslavement than it is to
freedom at least the way theBible talks about it.

Katie (43:40):
Like, how often is the thing we're praying for actually
in some ways at odds with ourspiritual formation and true
freedom in Christ?
Yes, yeah.

Mac (43:49):
Yeah, this plays into the last projection that we want to
name, which is the passiveenabler.
This is somewhat similar to theprevious one, but it's just
this idea that God is super nice, super tolerant, never
confronts the messed up stuff inour lives.
You know what I mean.
Sort of like grandparents whoyou only see every once in a

(44:11):
while, and when you're overthere they just dote on you and
give you a bunch of sugar.
You know what I mean.
Like this is what God is like.
He's just that.
He's just that dotinggrandparent who wants to make
you happy and give you whateveryou want.

Katie (44:26):
Yeah.

Mac (44:27):
You guys experienced this at all.

Katie (44:29):
Well, I saw my grandparents multiple times a
week and they still do that.
So, yeah, I see this one.
I mean, the Bible says do notjudge right.
We're preaching on that, youpreached on that this past week
and I'm preaching, but I thinkit kind of reminds me of that
sign.
Have you guys seen the sign?
Like chocolate is proof thatGod loves us and wants us to be
happy.
That's what it reminds me of.

(44:50):
That's ridiculous, like thisidea that I feel like whenever I
go to Door County I see thatsign Probably in Door County.

Mac (44:55):
Door County sign.
Yeah, when you drive up to DoorCounty you're going to see one
of two signs Signs like that, orall of these, like lion's den
signs where it's like what iswrong with Wisconsin?
Well, that's before you get to.

Katie (45:09):
Door.

Josiah (45:10):
County, Not in Door County.
Let's be clear that's FoxValley.
Yeah, that's the Fox ValleyOnce you get to Door.

Katie (45:15):
County it's just cherries and antique shops.

Mac (45:18):
Right.

Katie (45:19):
But it reminds me of, like the girl in the Willy Wonka
you know Willy Wonka and theChocolate Factory whose dad
gives her whatever she wants andshe ends like totally spoiled
because of it.
This idea that, yeah, god justshowers us with gifts and just
whatever makes us happy in themoment is what God wants for us.

Josiah (45:35):
Yeah, I feel like this is the opposite end.
If you were to swing thependulum from, god is a distant
deity who doesn't care.
You swing it to the oppositeside and you just have this very
narrow-minded view that all Godcares about is your personal
comfort, and so I think it'shelpful to note that for some

(45:57):
people, like knowing that God islike a doting grandparent, can
sound like good news in a momentright, because it can feel like
, oh, god actually cares aboutwhat I'm going through and I
haven't experienced that before,and that can be wonderful and
beautiful it's just not.

Katie (46:12):
it's not the full picture , Right.

Josiah (46:14):
Right Because like there's a big difference between
a parent and a grandparent.

Mac (46:18):
Yep, so we're all doing theology.
We've tried to name, you know,some of the common ways that we
tend to project things onto Godthat we're going to in a few
moments, say don't really matchGod Right.
Project things onto God thatwe're going to in a few moments,
say don't really match Godright, yeah.
So let's do that pivot, likehow do we pivot away from these
projections?

Josiah (46:35):
Yeah, so we see how these distortions to the way we
view God impact almost everyaspect of our faith, and we need
an anchor right.
We need the right frame, and webelieve that Jesus provides
that for us.
When we assess our view of whoGod is, we need to do so through
Jesus.
God is like Jesus, and so let'sunpack that.

Katie (46:56):
Yeah, I mean so one theme throughout this series that
we're sharing our belief thatJesus had a set of convictions
and beliefs that he carried withhim and these beliefs shaped
everything about him, includinghow he understood God, the
Father.
And if we look at Jesus, atwhat he did and what he said and
what he taught, I would submitthat Jesus understood himself to
be the perfect revelation ofGod.

(47:18):
So in John 14, 9, jesus tellsPhilip if you've seen me, you've
seen the Father.
In John 10, 30, he says I amthe Father, father are one.
So Jesus is telling us that heis God in the flesh.
He perfectly reveals what Godis life.
So it would follow.
Then I would say that if we wantan accurate picture of God, the

(47:39):
best place to go would be tolook at Jesus, like how did he
treat people?
How did he relate to his work?
How did he relate to rest?
How did he respond when peoplewere treating him poorly?
How did he relate to his work?
How did he relate to rest?
How did he respond when peoplewere treating him poorly?
How did he relate to those wholooked down on him?
And it's interesting because ifyou look at a lot of the ideas
we just unpacked.
I think it becomes clear thatmany of them don't line up with

(48:00):
Jesus at all.

Mac (48:03):
Yeah, so what we're saying is, if you're going to sort of
move away from these projections, you need to anchor yourself to
God.
Is like Jesus and I heard yousay something really important,
katie.
It strikes me as important thatthis was actually a mental
model or a lens that Jesus worewith regard to himself.
Jesus carried around theconviction that I'm revealing to

(48:26):
you what God is like.

Katie (48:28):
Yes, so if we're going to take him at his word, then we
are to look at him and go oh,that's what God looks like.

Mac (48:36):
If you see me, you see the father yeah.

Josiah (48:40):
Yeah, and even, and even , a step like another, step
beyond that is even that, likethe, the gospel writers and the
writers in the New Testamentknew this.
It seems like the writers ofthe New Testament really
understood this deeply.
In Matthew 1, jesus is namedEmmanuel, which means God.
With us we have John, chapter 1, which references Jesus as the

(49:03):
word of God.
No one has ever seen God, butthe one and only son has made
him known.
Hebrews 1, Jesus is theradiance of the divine nature,
the exact representation of hisbeing.
Colossians we have Jesus is theimage of the invisible God.
The fullness of deity dwells inhim.
So it's all over.

(49:26):
Jesus is God Right.

Mac (49:29):
Right and obviously this is a core conviction that is
ironed out and affirmed, basedon scripture and the life and
teachings of Jesus by the earlychurch and throughout church
history this has been somethingthat all Christians have agreed
upon.
But this conviction that God islike Jesus and Jesus reveals
what God is like is somethingthat you see throughout, like

(49:51):
theological consensus throughoutchurch history, and I could
point you in the right directionif you wanted to see that
developed, but I ended up justgrabbing a bunch of quotes to
indicate how prominent andrepetitious this becomes, just
so you can appreciate howimportant it is.
So there's a guy named Gregoryof Nyssa from the fourth century

(50:11):
and he said that which wasvisible in our savior is the
image of the invisible God.
That which Jesus makes visibleis the image of the invisible
God.
Jesus makes visible what isinvisible about God, and I think
that's really powerful.
Michael Ramsey says God isChrist-like and in him is no

(50:36):
un-Christ-likeness at all.
So whatever you believe aboutGod, if it isn't aligned with
Jesus, you need to get rid of it, because there's no
un-Christ-like streak in God'scharacter.
His character is perfectlyrevealed in Jesus.
Dallas Willard D Willie oncesaid if you want to know what
God is like, look at Jesus.
Rowan Williams said the samething.

(50:57):
Richard Rohr said Jesus is thehuman face of God.
Jesus is the human face of God.
Jesus is God with skin on right.
This guy named Herbert McCabesaid if you do not believe in
Jesus, then you do not believein God, for God is just like
Jesus.
Frederick Buechner said inJesus, god becomes as plain as

(51:25):
day.
Brian Zahn said God is likeJesus.
God has always been like Jesus.
There's never been a time whenGod was not like Jesus.
We haven't always known this,but now we do.
And then my friends Matt andBen say this in their book Jesus
is what God is like, full stop.
I like that full stop period.
Now I want to take this one stepfurther, right, because we're

(51:47):
saying, okay, the New Testamentmakes it clear that God is like
Jesus.
Jesus reveals to us perfectlywhat God is like.
These were the mental models,one of the mental models that
Jesus had.
So we've made a case for that.
But it still sort of raises thequestion okay, but then what
was Jesus like?
You know what I mean?

(52:08):
I was once in a car with someonefor the day.
We were kind of attending to afamily emergency, so we got a
lot of time together and we hada great day.
But she kept saying, well, myJesus is like this and my Jesus
is like that.
And I just kept like going, huh, like yes, god wants a personal
relationship, but you don't ownJesus.
Like Jesus can define himself.

(52:28):
You know what I mean.
Like you don't get to determinewhat Jesus is like, jesus gets
to determine what Jesus is like.
And so this just leads to thequestion like what kind of God
does Jesus reveal?
And I want to submit, just tokind of push the conversation
forward, is that Jesus reveals acruciform God, and that's a
technical term, the wordcruciform, it's a Latin word,

(52:52):
c-r-u-x means cross, it's atwo-part word and formus means
shape, so it's a cross-shapedGod.
So I want to submit and I'mhoping we can talk about this a
little bit that the God thatJesus reveals is a God whose
character is cruciform love,other-centered, self-sacrificial
, calvary-like love, a kind oflove that's willing to go to the

(53:16):
cross in order to redeem andrescue a sinful and broken
humanity.

Katie (53:22):
Yeah.

Mac (53:23):
So it's not just my Jesus.
Is this my Jesus is that, likeJesus, reveals a very specific
kind of God.
It's a God whose very characteris cruciform love.

Katie (53:32):
Yeah, yeah, and I see this play out in the scriptures
as we read the gospels and welook at kind of the stories of
Jesus and the stories of theearly church.
Philippians 2 says in yourrelationships with one another,
have the same mindset as ChristJesus.
In your relationships with oneanother, have the same mindset
as Christ Jesus who, being invery nature God, did not

(53:57):
consider equality with Godsomething to be used to his own
advantage.
And it goes on to say, rather,he made himself nothing, taking
on the nature of a servant, andit goes on.
So notice the phrase equalitywith God.
Like Jesus was equal to God, hewas God, yet he didn't use that
to his own advantage.
So, even though Jesus was king,he made himself a servant.
Even though he could andultimately did defeat death, he

(54:21):
first submitted to death right,and a type of death that was
like the most humiliating kind.
Even though he could have livedhis life in a peaceful bubble,
he put himself out there amongstthe people and spent most of
his time with people who werebroken and hurting, and he loved
them.
So yeah, I agree, I think wehave this.
Jesus gives us the perfectpicture of God, and it's a God

(54:44):
who embodies cruciform love inevery respect.
And the way we take that fromjust a concept to something
concrete is just by looking athow Jesus did and what he said
and what those who knew him saidabout him.

Mac (54:59):
Can I nerd out about that passage in Philippians 2 for a
moment?

Katie (55:02):
Yeah, please.

Mac (55:03):
There was a scholar.
There is a scholar namedMichael Gorman who wrote a book
called Inhabiting the CruciformGod, which is all about what
you're talking about ourunderstanding of Jesus and who
Jesus reveals God to be, andwhat it looks like for us to
inhabit a cruciformity in ourown lives.
He does a deep dive into thatPhilippians 2 passage which you
just quoted, and points out thatmany times the translation of

(55:26):
Philippians 2 is even though hewas God, he humbled himself,
even though.
But Gorman and honestly with agrowing group of New Testament
commentators argues that abetter translation would have
been instead of even though,rather because, because he was
in the form of God, he humbledhimself.

(55:48):
In other words, paul isn't somuch contrasting divinity and
humility Interesting.
What he's doing is he's namingthat true divinity expresses
itself through humility andself-giving love.
In other words, the passageredefines God in cruciform terms
.
The cross doesn't conceal God'snature.

(56:08):
It actually reveals what Godhas always been like
Self-sacrificial love.
I think that's really cool.

Josiah (56:17):
That's really cool.
Yeah, it's like an expressionof the character of God, not in
contrast to it.

Mac (56:23):
Yes, it's like, oh, god is so big and yet there is a sense
in that.
But it's actually revealingwhat God was already like before
God even took on flesh in Jesus.
And this again so manytheologians have named this as
like the pinnacle of God'sself-revelation Jesus on the

(56:44):
cross.
So Clark Pinnock says God hasrevealed himself in Jesus not as
coercive power but cruciformlove.
A guy named Brad Jersic saysJesus doesn't just reveal the
character of God, he redefinesit in cruciform love.
Greg Boyd says the cross is thesupreme revelation of the
character of God.

(57:05):
And then Juergen Moltmann saysthe crucified Jesus is the image
of the invisible God, kind of acore.
Once again, maybe not only isGod like Jesus, but there seems
to be a core theologicalconsensus supported by the New
Testament that like yeah, andit's cruciformity is at the
heart of it.
Love it, love it.
All right.
So, having said all of that,love it All right.

(57:27):
So, having said all of that,let's go back to these
projections, shall we?
Because I can imagine maybeyou're sitting there going, okay
, distant deity, sovereign,puppet master, so on.
You cover all these and we'vekind of hinted at why they might
be problematic.
But let's go through them again, like, let's pass through these

(57:50):
again through the lens of Jesus, and go up see how these are
actually inconsistent with theGod revealed in Jesus, the God
of cruciform love.
Make sense.

Katie (57:59):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, the first one I named wasthe distant deity, the idea
that God is just sort of removedand absent and uninterested in
our lives.
Absent and uninterested in ourlives.
And when we look at scripturewe see that in fact Jesus draws
near to people, to all people.

(58:19):
He speaks over them, he listensto them, he even weeps with
them, walks with them.
John 1.14 says and the wordbecame flesh and dwelt among us.
Like Jesus dwelt among people,he lived amongst them as a human
.
Matthew 28, 20 says and thoughI'm with you always, until the
end of the world.
So I just think we see in Jesusthat God is near and present

(58:41):
and feels the full weight of oursuffering and our pain and all
of that.
Jesus is in no way distant.

Mac (58:47):
Yeah, I mean, this is the center of the center of the
gospel that, despite thebrokenness of the world, god
takes on flesh and moves towardsus, doesn't remain distant or
absent or aloof, but, as EugenePeterson, takes on flesh and
moves into the neighborhood.
Yeah, you know, and youmentioned earlier, josiah, when

(59:09):
we go through something reallydifficult, in those moments
where we're most tempted to goGod, where are you?
Why am I going through this?
Don't you care?
Well, it's often as you gothrough it, especially when you
look back on it.
I know this is true in my ownlife.
I didn't notice it at the time,but God was present and was
caring and was near and wasgiving me things I didn't even

(59:32):
know at the moment to support methrough that season.
Yeah, yeah, you experiencedthat too.

Josiah (59:38):
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah, in the moments you can'tsee it, but then when you look
back, you can see all the waysthat God was present.
Yeah, it's crazy.

Mac (59:51):
Yeah, then you have the sovereign puppet master right,
this idea that, hey, god'ssovereign, but his sovereignty
equals control.
And yet I'll just say scriptureas a whole, if I were to give a
definition of sovereignty.
It's not so much about control.
Instead, it's about God beingover and above all things, that,
no matter how what's happeningin the world, god is still on

(01:00:14):
the throne.
That's kind of the through lineof how scripture speaks about
God's sovereignty.
But think about this no onewould say that complete control
is a good thing.
If you said that, hey, katie,you're a really controlling
parent.
Or hey, josiah, as a worshipleader I noticed you working

(01:00:35):
with those volunteers, you'rekind of a control freak no one
would say that's a good thing.
No one would say that is a goodthing at all.
We recognize it as a bad thing.
So why do we say it about God?
And sure enough, if you look atJesus, you don't see someone
who's controlling everyone oreverything around him.
You just don't.
It's actually the exactopposite.
Jesus seems to honor the otherpeople's agency and free will,

(01:00:59):
even when they don't do what hewants them to do.
He seems very comfortableallowing people to make their
own choices and then respondingin light of whatever they choose
.
So think about the rich youngruler hey, you got to sell
everything you have and comefollow me.
That's what you're missing.
And we're told he walks away.
Sad Jesus doesn't try tocontrol the rich young ruler's

(01:01:21):
response.
Once he's made that choice.
He doesn't try to reason withhim to get him to do something
different.
He resists that type ofmanipulation or control and we
see this literally allthroughout the gospels.
It's how he interacts withJudas betraying him, or Peter
denying him, or the religiousleaders plotting against him.

(01:01:42):
You don't see him controllingor manipulating everybody.
I just get cranked up about thisone.
Which is better?
Let's talk about this for thisone.
Which is better?
Let's talk about this for amoment.
Which is better?
A God who needs to controleverything in order to be
sovereign, or or a God who isstill sovereign and can still
accomplish his purposes, despiteboth human and angelic beings

(01:02:06):
who have genuine free will Liketo me?
Yeah, you know, one is so muchmore obviously better and more
loving than the other.
You know what I mean, mm.
Hmm, does that not shakeanything loose for you?

Josiah (01:02:22):
Oh, that is true.

Mac (01:02:24):
One seems a lot more powerful, like you know, like a
lot more potent right and thisis why I think in in the
scriptures you see this emphasisbeing placed on god's wisdom
and not just his power.
First of all, you see the thisidea going back to cruciformity,
that God's power is revealed inthe cross, which is foolishness

(01:02:46):
to the world.
So that tells you enough to gothe way we understand.
Power needs to be reconfiguredand recentered around the cross
of Christ.
But in addition, in that sametext, in 1 Corinthians, it talks
about how this was foolish tothe world, but it was the very
wisdom of God.
So God's power and wisdom areoften fused together to go.
If we're gonna understand God'sagency in the world, we can't

(01:03:08):
just think about it asNeanderthal power where God just
goes and gets what he wants.
You know what I mean, like hedoesn't just bop people over the
head.
It's this fusion of cross-likepower with self-sacrificial
wisdom, and that's how Godaccomplishes God's purposes in
the world.

Katie (01:03:28):
Yeah, and it makes sense to me why we grasp for this idea
.
In the moment, like in themoment when things aren't going
well or you really wantsomething to happen.
In some ways it's more, itmight feel more reassuring to go
well, god will just kind of,like you said, pull a few lovers
and make it happen.
But over the long haul I thinkit just creates a lot more

(01:03:48):
problems and raises a lot morequestions and, as you're saying,
really isn't consistent withthe character that we see of God
revealed in Jesus.

Mac (01:03:53):
Yeah, and I don't see you as a controlling person.

Josiah (01:03:56):
Katie or Josiah.
I just want to make that clear.
There have been times.
I just want to make that clear.
There have been times.
Yeah, so God being like Jesusalso gives us an antidote to
this false frame that God islike a cosmic cop.
Jesus reveals a God who movestowards us in our brokenness.
Call back to the last episode.

(01:04:17):
We already kind of spoke aboutit, but we talked all about how
God is present and meets us inreality and if God is like Jesus
, he's not withholding when wemake mistakes.
When we're broken or lost in sin.
He moves towards us in love andhe's not counting our sins
against us.
I think about the passage whenJesus washes the disciples' feet

(01:04:38):
, and how much Jesus had tohumble himself to do the job of
a servant for one, but for twohe also washed.
He's washing Judas's feet,knowing that he's already done
work to betray him.
So the ultimate betrayal,ultimate sin, betraying Jesus,
right the bad as it could get,jesus is washing his feet and

(01:04:59):
serving him dinner, and so thatshows me a picture of a God
who's not a cop writing ticketsand throwing you in jail or
giving you the silent treatmentand disappointed in you when you
make mistakes, but a God who'spresent and moves towards you.
Reveals a God that we don'thave to hide from, one that

(01:05:20):
seeks us out, especially when wemess up.

Mac (01:05:24):
Yeah, that's such good news .
I wanna continue to experiencethat in my life.
Like the mistake is anopportunity to discover God's
great mercy.

Josiah (01:05:35):
every mistake and it's waiting for you there.

Mac (01:05:38):
If we'll just return home with more frequency, you know.

Katie (01:05:42):
Yeah, not in spite of it, but actually in the middle of
it.
Yeah.

Josiah (01:05:45):
Yeah Well, and I also think about how the first
formation stuff can be like amalformation.
I also have experienced God'slove through people in times
when I've made mistakes.
When you experience grace whenyou know you've messed up and
you're beating yourself up andsomeone gives you grace and

(01:06:07):
stays present to you, that'slike it's healing.
And I think maybe if you'rehaving a hard time picturing God
not as that cosmic cop and evenseeing Jesus do it to other
people in the gospels that like,oh, clearly he's for our good
and that he's moving towards us,think about a time when you
experienced grace and presencefrom someone in your life when

(01:06:30):
they could have walked awayRight, right we experienced the
grace and love of Jesus throughcommunity in our brokenness.

Mac (01:06:37):
Yeah yeah, and you guys, we stink at hiding.
I mean that's.
The other thing is like ourhiding is futile.
My youngest son, griffin, Imean, if you're listening to
this you've probably heardbefore, but he has Down syndrome
and one of the things he getsinto occasionally is wanting to
play hide and seek, but heabsolutely sucks at it.
He hides in the same spot andit's not even a hiding spot.

(01:06:58):
He just kind of like initiatesit and then goes into his room,
sits in the middle of the floorbut closes the door.
But he thinks it's hilarious.
Every time you open the doorand go, found you, he starts
like giggling and then we do ituntil it's really boring.

Katie (01:07:13):
For him or for you?

Mac (01:07:14):
Well, for me usually because it's just like he
doesn't have an off switch.
If he finds something funny,he'll ask you to do it over a
thousand times.
It's just so cute andexhausting.
But that's kind of what itfeels like when we try to hide
from God.
It's like, okay, here I am,sitting in the middle of the
floor, you know what.
I mean, Like you know exactlywhere I am.

(01:07:34):
It's not-.

Katie (01:07:35):
Right, right, your door's not even closed.
Yeah, totally yeah, yeah, no,that's a good one, yeah, and the
other one I named was thevending machine.
God, there is something toaffirm.
I think that God gives us goodthings and, you know, of course,
wants to see us live contentfuland happy lives.

(01:07:58):
I think there's lots ofblessings that he gives us, but
I think he calls us intosomething deeper than just the
sense of entitlement, and that'ssurrender.
And this idea of surrendering tohis love can look very
different than whatever.
My version is of a comfortable,happy life.
Sometimes it might line up incertain ways, but sometimes my

(01:08:19):
comfort is actually the worstthing for my spiritual formation
.
Instead, in the gospels we seeJesus call us to die to
ourselves and to live in him,and there's a lot of discomfort
that comes with that.

Josiah (01:08:32):
Yeah, I'm remembering.
If this doesn't make sense youcan cut it out, adam, but I
remember the first year I wentwith you to the silent retreat.
The retreat director talkedabout the difference between

(01:08:56):
pain that can lead to formationand pain that's like evil, pain
when it's like inflicted asopposed to just normal life
trouble.
Discerning the difference isimportant to know if God needs
to bring healing or if God isproducing fruit.
I don't know yeah.

(01:09:17):
But we're not very good atdiscerning that in our no, we'd
rather have no pain at all.

Katie (01:09:21):
Thank you very much, yeah .

Mac (01:09:23):
Yeah, but we don't grow that way, you know.
And so there is.
You need a community ofspiritual discernment around you
for those types of reasons,because oftentimes it's hard for
us to wrap our mind around notjust what's happening and how we
might be contributing to it allthe variables but also God's
agency within it.
And I just find, at least forme, I need a team of people

(01:09:46):
around me, especially when it'sdifficult or complicated, to
help me attend to that.
Well, the final one, just by wayof correction the projection
was the passive enabler, right,the sort of hey, god is just
sort of giving you sugar andtrying to make you happy, and
obviously you're going to behard-pressed to read the Gospels

(01:10:06):
and hold on to this image ofGod.
Yes, jesus is incrediblygracious and his grace is
disruptive because he gives itto people who don't deserve it
at all.
Right, and so it cuts in thatdirection.
But you'll also see, throughoutthe Gospels, particularly with
those who hold authority andpower and pride themselves with

(01:10:27):
being religiously upstanding andrighteous man, he often has
some really tough mirror momentswith them, motivated by love
and not an absence of grace, buthe constantly is also holding
up a mirror of truth to go.
This is where you are, this iswhat you're doing, this is the
work you're doing and you needto reckon with that.

Josiah (01:10:49):
You know what I mean.

Mac (01:10:51):
And so you don't see in the life of Jesus just a passive
enabler.
You also see thisconfrontational side, but it's
not done out of Jesus runningout of patience or sort of being
at his limit in terms of grace.
It's a calibration of truthdone out of a motivation of love
.

Katie (01:11:10):
Yeah.

Mac (01:11:11):
And I would argue it's still cruciform.
And here's why Because theconfrontation that he has with
the religious leaders doesn'tgive him points.
It actually is what leads himto being crucified.
So he confronts them out oflove for them, and the cost to
himself is that they're the oneswho crucify him.

Josiah (01:11:28):
Yeah, it's not coercive, for his sake, yes, totally.

Katie (01:11:32):
It's interesting.

Mac (01:11:33):
Totally so.
Again, I mean, you could dothis work.
We could have picked otherprojections, other ways of
viewing God that we walk aroundwith in our brains that are
inaccurate, and you could do thesame work of going does this
match Jesus?
And begin to sort of unpackthat and go oh, here's how Jesus
corrects that or speaks intothat.
And this is lifelong work.

(01:11:54):
This is lifelong work ofcontinually going back to Jesus
and having your understanding ofwho God is and how God relates
to you, shaped by his life andteachings and his presence
through the spirit.

Katie (01:12:08):
Yeah, yeah.

Mac (01:12:10):
All right, friends, it is praxis time.
It is time to get into somepractices.
In light of this conversation,we want to give you some really
concrete things you can do asyou walk away from this episode
to begin to live this out.

Katie (01:12:25):
Yeah, we named this earlier in the episode, but this
starts with getting aware andgetting honest.
So, as a first practice, Iwould just name examine your
images of God, like as you sithere and listen to us.
Which of these are there others?
Which one do you relate to?
Which ones do you see poppingup in your life and how do you

(01:12:46):
notice it playing out?
Is it you know, if you, I dospiritual direction and my
spiritual director will oftensay, as you, as you pray or as
you sit with God in that, how doyou picture him looking at you?
Like what's his expression?
And I think that's a reallygood exercise to do.
Like as you come before Godwith something that you know,

(01:13:08):
you feel you messed up or failedor you feel shame about in some
way.
Like picture, ask yourselfwhat's the image of God that I'm
holding in my mind right now?
How do I see him posturedtowards me?
How do I see him looking at me?
How do I see him relating to me?
I see him pastored towards me.
How do I see him looking at me?
How do I see him relating to me?
I think that's just a reallygood practice to start by, to
start gaining some awarenessaround it.

Mac (01:13:29):
Yeah, what kind of God are you presupposing in this moment?
That's another.
That's like I love thatquestion you're giving our
listeners, katie.
What's the expression on hisface right now?
How do you assume God'srelating to you?
What is that belief you haveassuming God is like?
And these are little ways thatyou can start to wake up to the

(01:13:50):
fact that you're doing theology,you are carrying around beliefs
that are very much influencingyou and how you're responding to
God in your life.
And Josiah you've named severaltimes.
But I want to say part of thiswork and it can be very fruitful
is to go back to your firstformation, not because there's
always just like a directone-to-one correlation, but
because there is some influencethere.

(01:14:11):
Oftentimes we need to wrestlewith and uncover that impacts
how we see God and relate to Godin our lives.
Like for me, dude, I grew up ina home that was very rule-based
and high expectations on here'swhat we expect you to how to
behave and how to do this andhow to do that, and I'm grateful
for that I had a clear sense ofright and wrong and just like

(01:14:35):
any kid it's not like I did thatperfectly and I was afraid of
consequences.
You know, doing the wrong thingand getting in trouble for it,
and that has shaped how I relateto my mistakes now and relate
to God as a result.
It's good for me to be aware ofthat, yeah for sure.
So practice one examine yourimages of God.
Practice two is make Jesus yourinterpretive key.

(01:14:57):
So whatever bubbles up for youagain, get beyond the hey,
here's the right answer.
On the theology test, the rightanswer is whatever it is you're
actually believing, you got tobe honest about that.
But then make Jesus yourinterpretive key.
How does Jesus correct or speakto this belief or conviction I
have about who God is or howhe's relating to me?

(01:15:17):
And one core practice you cando is just to always keep your
thumb in one of the gospels.
Make it a lifelong habit toconsistently read through the
gospels so you're constantlynoticing and going deeper with
how you understand Jesus.
And this will also help youresist that urge to go oh, my
Jesus, this my Jesus that whenyou read the gospels you're like

(01:15:40):
no, jesus was like this let.

Josiah (01:15:41):
Jesus define himself yeah, that's really good.
Yeah, it's so important.
Practice three really isn't anew one, it's just repeat steps
one and two.

Mac (01:15:53):
For the rest of your life.

Josiah (01:15:54):
Exactly, yeah, we just need to normalize the process of
have we use the word bad newsin our discipleship curriculum,
just to name that, if, if, ifthe gospel is good news and
tells us who God is and who weare because of it and how things
work, then our behavior, whenit doesn't line up, is

(01:16:17):
ultimately, it's ultimatelyconnected to bad news or false
beliefs, right, false theology,like bad theology in our lives.
And so just normalize theprocess of identifying the bad
news and going to God to replaceit with good news and just

(01:16:37):
repeat that for the rest of yourlife.

Katie (01:16:39):
And don't be surprised when you find yourself there
again having to do the samething.

Mac (01:16:43):
You mentioned something too , Josiah, that might be part of
this practice of doing this incommunity.
Like I know, I need people whocan embody the grace of God when
I make mistakes.
I also need people who can goMac, that sounds like some bad
news.
You're believing you know whatI mean and then I can kind of go

(01:17:03):
.
You're right, I need to unpackthat understanding of what God
is doing in this moment.
So we need people around us tohelp us stay focused on Jesus,
to notice a name when we'repivoting out of bad news and to
be embodiments of good news.

Josiah (01:17:18):
Yeah, I can't imagine how much I wouldn't attend to if
I didn't have people in my lifewho would say, hey, what's
going on with that?
Or like just normalizing theprocess of just checking in with
the close people in your life,like, hey, how are you doing?
Like, hey, how's this situationgoing?
Like, if I didn't have peopledoing that, I might not ever
attend anything.

Mac (01:17:38):
Well, thanks for joining us today.
We hope you enjoyed the episode.
Next time we're going to lookat another core conviction when
it comes to multiplyingdisciples who live on mission in
the world.
It's going to build on this one, but it's this conviction that
God's kingdom looks like Jesus'sministry.

Josiah (01:17:56):
Praxis is recorded and produced at Crosspoint Community
Church.
You can find out more about theshow and our church at
crosspointwicom.
If you have any questions,comments or have any suggestions
for future topics, feel free tosend us an email.
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