God Meets Us Where We Actually Are

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What if God doesn't wait for us to clean up our act before loving us? What if He actually meets us exactly where we are—in all our messy, broken reality?

In a discussion about our second mental model for missional discipleship, we unpack the life-changing truth that "God bends to meet us in reality." This isn't just feel-good theology—it's the pattern we see throughout scripture and most vividly in Jesus himself.

From Genesis where God sought Adam and Eve after their sin to Jesus dining with tax collectors and sinners, we discover a God who consistently stoops down to meet humanity in their brokenness. The good news is that we don't need to fix ourselves before approaching God. The challenging news? We must be honest about where we truly are.

Many of us struggle with pretending, especially in church settings. We put on our "Sunday best" not just in clothes but in behavior and spiritual appearance. Yet authentic transformation begins only when we drop the masks and embrace reality—when we learn to "hug our cactus," as Mac puts it.

Whether you're wrestling with shame, struggling to trust God's grace, or finding it difficult to extend that grace to others, this episode offers practical wisdom for embracing reality and experiencing the freedom that comes with it. Because when we stop hiding, we discover God has been waiting there all along.

Listen now and discover how to live authentically in God's grace—no more pretending required.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to Praxis, a podcast where we explore how to
practice and embody the way ofJesus in our everyday lives.
Thanks so much for taking thetime to listen.
We're in a series focused onour mental models for missional
discipleship a framework forliving out our faith as
disciples of Jesus in everydaylife.
Whether we're aware of it ornot, we all have mental models,

(00:23):
deep convictions and assumptionsthat shape how we see and take
action in the world.
Mental models are kind of likeprescription lenses While often
invisible when wearing them,they constantly and consistently
shape the way we think, feeland act.
So what were the mental modelsJesus lived by?
What convictions shaped howJesus saw people, responded to

(00:44):
needs, formed disciples andjoined God's mission in the
world?
That's what the series is allabout.
Each week, we are unpacking akey conviction that shaped
Jesus's way of life and explorehow it can shape ours too, as we
seek to be a community ofdisciples living on mission in
the way of Jesus.
Today, we're going to look at asecond core conviction, and
it's this God bends to meet usin reality.

Speaker 2 (01:15):
Let's get into it.
Well, welcome everybody.
My name is Josiah, I'm Mac.

Speaker 1 (01:24):
And I'm Katie.

Speaker 2 (01:29):
It's great to be here back in the room with you all.
Hey, I was thinking aboutsomething from my childhood and
I'd love to hear some of yourthoughts on this.
So, growing up in an era beforestreaming video, if you wanted
to watch a movie, you either hadto go to you know the movie

(01:50):
store.

Speaker 1 (01:50):
We had movie gallery in our town.
Yeah, we had this thing calledmr movies weird.

Speaker 2 (01:55):
Yeah, I've never heard of that one.
Um well, you were in minnesota,right?
Yeah, um no, but if you did,but if you didn't go to the
movie gallery to go get a movie,you just had to watch whatever
one was in your house, likewhichever one you had.
But I feel like every familyhad a movie that was like the
go-to.

(02:16):
If they're killing time, theywould watch this movie kind of
over and over again.
It was like the family movie.
So I'm curious, what was yourlike family movie that you
watched when you were bored?

Speaker 3 (02:29):
well, my parents definitely had different ones.
My dad loved the matrix nice,he's probably seen that movie so
many times, I can't even countit is pretty cool uh, my mom
loved the movie greece yeahremember greece, so that was
played a lot in our house.
I was probably when I wasyounger.
I did a lot in our house.
I was probably when I wasyounger.
I did a lot of like the DisneyPrincess, little Mermaid, beauty

(02:50):
and the Beast, stuff like that.

Speaker 1 (02:52):
Yeah, I don't really remember like a movie that we
watched as an entire family onrepeat, but I do remember some
of those like Disney movies.
I had three sisters so Iremember seeing the Little
Mermaid a ton, but my favoritewas Robin Hood, like the
animated Disney.

Speaker 2 (03:09):
That one was my favorite.
Yeah, that was one of ours.

Speaker 1 (03:12):
I watched that hundreds of times.

Speaker 2 (03:15):
Yeah yeah, my dad liked any of the big comedies
like Dumb and Dumber and TommyBoy.
Oh, those are great.
Um, but there is a.
There's a movie.
It's called the man who knewtoo little.
Have you ever heard of it?
no it's with, but it's with billmurray, it's, it's lesser known

(03:36):
.
Um, this dopey guy thinks he'sin like, uh, this like theater
performance thing that goes allover town in London.
But really he answers the wrongphone call and he's like a hit
man.
But he doesn't realize he's inreal life.
He thinks he's acting the wholetime.

Speaker 3 (03:53):
How funny.

Speaker 2 (03:53):
It's really funny and honestly I think it's really
funny, but we used to watch thatone all the time and our family
quotes it, but I don't knowvery many other people who have
seen them.

Speaker 3 (04:02):
Yeah, I don't think I've ever heard of it?

Speaker 1 (04:04):
Did you guys have McGee and Me?
I mean, I've heard of it, don'tthink so.

Speaker 2 (04:09):
I know of it, but we didn't watch it.
No.

Speaker 1 (04:11):
Classic, sort of like Christian subculture type
quasi-animated films.
It was ridiculous.
But anyway, if you arelistening to this and you've
never heard McGee and Me, justgo ahead and Google that and
then you'll be like, okay, thatexplains a lot.
Yeah, all right.
Well, speaking of throwbackmovies, you know Right, that's a

(04:37):
perfect segue into what we'redoing today.

Speaker 3 (04:39):
Yeah, Speaking of McGee.

Speaker 1 (04:41):
And me.

Speaker 3 (04:42):
And me.
Yeah, we're on a series rightnow focused on mental models for
discipleship, and if you'veever heard mental models before,
I would encourage you to goback and listen to the first
episode in the series.
What we're hoping to do here isexplore some of our core
convictions or truths thatanchor us and guide us as we go
about being a community ofdisciples who live on mission in

(05:04):
the way of Jesus.
What's more, we believe thatthese were the core convictions
that guided Jesus.
These were the mental modelsthat Jesus used when making and
multiplying disciples to joinGod's mission in the world.
So last time, we presented ourfirst core conviction, and
that's the idea that God'spresence precedes our
participation.
So we talked a lot about God'smission and how the God who is

(05:27):
on mission in the world invitesus to be part of what it is that
God is doing.
We said that of course, we havea role to play, but it's a
participatory one, andunderstanding this can literally
shape how we engage everymoment of life as we shift from
doing things on our own todiscerning and joining whatever
it is that God is doing.

(05:48):
So this week we're going tounpack our second core
conviction of missionaldiscipleship, and it naturally
flows from the first one.
It's that, if it's true thatGod's presence always precedes
our participation and there'snever a moment when God isn't
graciously present, well, anextension of that is this God
meets us in reality.

(06:08):
So, again, god is alwayspresent and God's presence
always meets us in reality, andby reality I mean where we
really are.
He meets us in what's true,what's true about us, what's
true about our circumstances.
So God meets us in reality,where we actually are, not where
we should be.
And I want to submit to youtoday that this is good news,

(06:32):
but also really hard news.
So let's start with the goodnews.
Why is it that it's good newsthat God meets us in reality?
What do you guys think aboutthat?

Speaker 1 (06:43):
Yeah, I think the good news of this core
conviction that God bends tomeet us where we actually are
not where we should be, notwhere we ought to be, you know,
but where we actually are isthat we don't have to clean
ourselves up or improveourselves.
Rather, god stoops, he bends tomeet us where we are, even when

(07:05):
our lives are a total mess, andthis is really good news, I
think, because it means that wedon't have to change ourselves
in order for God to love us.
And, of course, we see thismost clearly in the gospel,
which we'll talk about in a bit.
But I kind of want to insistthat this is actually how God we
see, god relating to peoplethroughout the Bible.

(07:26):
I think sometimes I encountermaybe you have too, I encounter
people who kind of have thisperspective that like, oh, god
in the New Testament is reallygracious and loving and caring,
but the God in the Old Testamentis sort of like harsh and full
of wrath and judgmental, and youknow what I mean, full of
judgment and it's almost likecreates this discontinuity.

(07:51):
And I don't wanna completelyerase that, because I do think
that when we consider and we'lltalk about this in our next core
conviction that God is likeJesus.
When we take that seriously, itdoes create some questions
about how we understand, forinstance, god commanding
genocide in the Old Testamentand things like that.
So there is some, I think,areas of discontinuity that are

(08:11):
fair to wrestle with right, andthat's probably a totally
different podcast series.
But when it comes to sin andthe fact that we as human beings
are broken, I wanna submit thatthere's a fairly uniform
picture that we see throughoutscripture, from beginning to end
, and this idea that God bendsto meet us where we are.
It's good news, but it's notnew news.

(08:33):
This is how God has alwaysrelated to humanity.
So can I give like an example?
Yes, yeah, okay.
So maybe one example of thiswhere we just see God bending to
meet people where they are isGenesis 3.
The very first time sin entersthe world and you all know the

(08:55):
story God tells Adam and Eve notto eat from the tree of the
knowledge of good and evil.
It was sort of a loving way ofprotecting them.
It was sort of a loving way ofprotecting them.
And they get duped by theserpent and they end up eating
from the tree of the knowledgeof good and evil and sin enters
the world and shatterseverything, their relationship

(09:16):
with God, with themselves, withother people and creation itself
, this fourfold fracture.
Well, what's interesting isit's interesting to ask the
question how does God relate toAdam and Eve right after they
eat from the tree of theknowledge of good and evil?
And maybe just to kind of bringthis home for a moment, if we
could imagine this as a pastor,and maybe you've experienced
this too when you have peoplewho come and sort of share their

(09:41):
brokenness.
I've had over the years manypeople who have sort of made
some a big mistake or some bigmistakes, and they're sitting in
my office totally broken, right, and you ask the question
something like hey, how do youthink God sees you in this
moment, or how is God relatingto you in this moment?
Most of the time I hear answerslike well, they kind of a kind

(10:05):
of a scary depiction of like Godbeing really angry, upset with
them, ready to Hulk out on them.
I mean, I remember one vividstory that the guy said I
imagine sort of like mygrandfather beat red with a vein
popping out of his forehead,just like imagine the intensity
of that kind of anger.

(10:26):
Right, this is how most people,when they find themselves their
lives in a mess or sitting withthe guilt of a big mistake,
they imagine God being justreally angry and upset.
And yet in Genesis 3, that'sjust not what we see at all we
see God, right after thisincident happens, going out and

(10:49):
looking for them to walk withthem during the cool of the day,
like he cries out where are you?
That's his heartbeat.
He wants to be near Adam andEve, even though they just
messed up, and he wants to walkwith them and be near them.
And so, despite some I think,bad theology that says that our

(11:10):
sin separates God from us, it'sactually the other way around
Our sin separates us from God.
We're the ones who go intohiding.
God wants to meet us where weare, even in our brokenness, and
he chases us down with graceand forgiveness.
Know what I mean?
Yeah, what does that, like Idon't know, surface for you?

(11:31):
Do you guys see this too?
This dynamic?
I'm naming that, if God meetsus where we are, we don't have
to clean ourselves up.
And this isn't entirely new.
We see this throughoutscripture.

Speaker 3 (11:42):
Yeah, I think it kind of challenges the default of
how we may have been taught tothink about God.
I think a lot of us were taughtto think about God that way.
Like I put on my best face,when I go to church and when I
talk to God I have to cleanmyself up first.
But I see what you're saying,mac.
When you actually look atscripture through this lens, it
challenges that narrative.
And this is God all throughoutscripture.

(12:03):
The very first time we see himis him going where are you?
And looking for them in love.

Speaker 1 (12:09):
Totally.
And there's other examples.
I mean you have Isaiah inIsaiah six, where he gets this
vision of kind of God on thethrone and they're singing holy,
holy, holy is the Lord, godalmighty, and he immediately is
fearful, like woe to me, I amsinful.
And then the seraphim, whichare like these angelic beings,
comes and touches him on thelips and like, cleanses him and

(12:33):
this is again a depiction oflike in God's presence, fearful
of my sin and brokenness.
And what does God do?
Moves towards Isaiah andcleanses him and makes him whole
.

Speaker 2 (12:45):
Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think it's natural to, like you
were saying, Katie, to view Godas scary, especially when you
have all these depictions of Godbeing really big and he's
creator of everything and God ofthe universe.
Which is why it's so importantto look at how Jesus embodied

(13:06):
God's posture towards humanity,Because he gives us a better
picture, like a clear picture ofGod's heart towards people, our
verses, and take them out ofcontext and then use them to
conjure up this like fearfulreverence, which is is not bad.

(13:34):
It's only bad when that's theonly thing you have of God,
right, If the only thing you seeis like a big um, like larger
than we can imagine type ofbeing, um.
We also we need the depictionof the way Jesus showed up.
Otherwise we get this skewedpicture of God being distant and
too big for our problems.

(13:55):
But Jesus embodied somethingmuch different.

Speaker 1 (13:57):
Yeah, and you know Jesus got accused of hanging out
with sinners and tax collectors.
And I would assume you know Italk to people in our church and
when someone who has an obvioussin problem comes in there, the
top concern I hear here is likewell, if I'm close to them they
might think I'm condoning theirsin Right.
And this was an accusationbrought against Jesus all the

(14:18):
time, that in befriendingsinners he was sort of like
condoning their behavior right.
What's interesting to me?
Again, this isn't new.
Just going back to the OldTestament, we see it in Genesis
3, we see it in particularinteractions like with Isaiah.

(14:39):
But God continually bends andstoops to meet the people of
Israel where they are, eventhough they're consistently
caught in sinful behavior.
And in some cases he even endsup accommodating that sinful
behavior in order to continue inrelationship with them.
This is a bit scandalous forthose who haven't noticed this

(14:59):
before, but let me give you afew examples of this stooping,
bending God in order to bear inrelationship with the people and
take them where they aren't.
Yet he actually accommodates asin, a break from his ideal.
So one example of this isdivorce right.
God in the Old Testament,through the Mosaic law makes

(15:22):
conditions for divorce, and yetit is a complete deviation from
his ideal.
And we're told elsewhere in theOld Testament that God hates
divorce, and yet there's aredemptive through line to this
accommodation.
This is a culture where there'sway more women than men and
women had no way to provide forthemselves outside of the

(15:45):
protection of a husband.
Right, and men were justflippantly kicking women to the
curb without giving them acertificate of divorce, and then
they were having to prostitutethemselves or starve to death.
They had no way to provide forthemselves.
And so God looks at this andgoes this whole divorce thing is
not what I want.
And yet to protect women,you're going to provide a
certificate so they can getremarried and aren't on the

(16:06):
streets, but it's anaccommodation.
Another one is polygamy.
Right, god's ideal is one man,one woman, covenanted together
for life, and yet in the OldTestament you see that men often
have multiple wives and haveconcubines and things like that.
Again, this is a culture where,because of war and famine,

(16:28):
there's way more women than menand with limited ability to
provide for themselves.
This was not an ideal.
It wasn't God's ideal, but itwas a way to accommodate a
broken and fallen people and abroken and fallen culture with a
redemptive edge towards justice, towards making sure people
were cared for.
Maybe most provocatively, everyculture in the ancient Near

(16:49):
Eastern world practiced somedegree of sacrifice, sacrificing
animals to deities.
And yet we see verses in theOld Testament from David and so
on like, hey, you know,sacrifice is not what you need.
A sacrifice or an offeringisn't what you want, you don't
need this in order to forgive me.

(17:10):
And God graciously sort ofaccommodates sacrifice in the
ancient world, while also usingit to redemptively point to the
sacrifice of his son that isgoing to be coming.
So I guess what I'm trying toname is this whole idea that
this is good news, that Godbends and stoops to meet us.
In reality, it is incrediblygood news because it means that

(17:34):
we don't have to clean ourselvesup or fix ourselves in order
for God to love us.
God loves us as we are, andthis isn't brand new in Jesus,
although I think we see it mostclearly in him.
We see this the entire waythrough scripture.
This is God's posture towardsbroken humanity from Genesis 3
onward bending and stooping tomeet people in their brokenness,

(17:58):
and there's not a moment whereGod isn't doing this for you and
me even right now, where Godisn't doing this for you and me
even right now.
This is why I get reallycranked up with people who are
kind of self-righteous andjudgmental, as if like, hey, now
that I've kind of got my lifecleaned up, it's like, yeah, my
goodness, even right now God isbending and stooping me to meet
me in my brokenness, in areas Idon't even know about yet.

Speaker 3 (18:23):
You know what I mean.
Yeah, he's not looking down atus with this sort of sense of
condemnation or frustration.
He's actually looking at us thesame way.
He's always related to humanity, which is all the examples you
just pointed out in scripture.

Speaker 1 (18:39):
Yeah and I'm also maybe saying this works against
self-righteousness, because Inoticed this in the churches
that usually people are reallyjudgmental towards other
people's sin.
It's often sins they don'tstruggle with.
Yeah.
Right, and they seem to havelost sight of this fact that God
is a bending God, a stoopingGod who meets us in our

(19:00):
brokenness.
And because none of us arefully formed yet, none of us are
perfectly like Jesus, theimplication of that is that even
right now, in this moment, godis bending to meet me in my
brokenness.

Speaker 3 (19:12):
Yeah, and when we fully realize that, I imagine
that helps us relate to otherpeople.

Speaker 2 (19:18):
Yes, relate to them and their brokenness.
Yeah, yeah, it takes the edgeof fear out of the equation and
it allows you to just be, and Ithink that's really a beautiful
thing to know that there's, Imean and we have scriptures to
reference this but there'snothing we can do to separate us

(19:39):
from God's love, knowing thatis extremely empowering.
God will.
There's nothing I can do or sayor go or anywhere where God's
love isn't like chasing me downand wanting to be with me, like
that's a really beautifulpremise for life.

(19:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (20:01):
Yeah, I wonder if it's hard, maybe.
I'm just curious Is that hardto believe, though?
You know what I mean.
Like part of the barrier islike is that so good, is it true
?

Speaker 2 (20:12):
Yeah, well, it is difficult to believe.
It's difficult to believe formyself sometimes, but I think
there's an edge of so, like theangle of discipleship within
churches.
I would imagine and and I feellike I have like a like a voice

(20:34):
of someone who might be more, uh, judgmental or rigid about some
of these things in my headsaying, well, that gives people
way too much permission to bewhere they are all the time.
It gives people too muchpermission to sin and do
whatever they want, knowing thatGod will always meet them there
.
And I guess the analogy I thinkof is like if you're a driver

(21:03):
so if you're learning how todrive and you're really scared
of driving, you're afraid ofcrashing all the time.
You're going to be a terribledriver.
Like, if you're constantlyafraid of all the dangers of
driving, all the time you'regoing to be a terrible driver,
you're going to be overlycautious and you're probably

(21:24):
going to get into more accidentsbecause you're always afraid.
And, um, I think of it.
It's in the same thing as thecontext of life is knowing that
there's nothing I can do to tobe separated from God and I and
I and I'm with a God that isalways chasing me down.
That gives me the type ofconfidence that actually makes

(21:47):
me a much better person.
It makes me a lot more capableof deciding the right decisions.
Fear doesn't enable us to livelife better.
It actually impedes our abilityto live life with Jesus.

Speaker 3 (22:05):
Yeah, that's true.

Speaker 1 (22:08):
I'm thinking of a couple of things.
One is to illustrate your pointthat this past March I was in
Indianapolis and I had rented acar and I was driving Jim and
Tricia around and I was sonervous about, like, being a bad
driver that I was a bad driver.
And then, the moment they gotout of the car, I was like woo,
you know totally fine.
So I think you're right andscripture teaches this

(22:30):
motivation.
I mean, it says perfect lovedrives out fear.
Like you're right, we have likethis addiction, this attachment
to fear and guilt, as if wetrust grace too much, right,
it's gonna lead to a bad place.
And this, as we'll get intolater in this conversation, that
was a primary concern manypeople had with Jesus's ministry

(22:50):
.
Yeah, you know.
Okay.
So maybe just to kind ofsummarize and we can keep going
is like, hey, this is good news.
It's good news because we areloved by God as we are.
I've made the assertion rightthat this is a posture we see
throughout the scripture, butwe've also hinted at we see this
most clearly in Jesus and thiswhole series is based on.

(23:15):
These are the mental models ofJesus.
This is how Jesus saw andengaged the world.
So I thought it might behelpful to kind of zoom in on
Jesus for a bit, and I mightpropose that we do that using a
category that we present at ourDNA class.
At our DNA class, we make thisdistinction between the gospel
of Jesus and the gospel aboutJesus, and this isn't our

(23:38):
creation.
I actually first encounteredthis distinction from Michael
Bender and then I read it in hisdissertation and he got it from
a guy named Robert Weber whowas a professor at Wheaton for
over 30 years.
And then I noticed, man, a lotof scholars are making this
distinction.
There's a guy named CH Dodd whodid it, but NT Wright does it

(24:01):
quite a bit.
He talks about how the messageso real quick, the gospel of
Jesus is Jesus's proclamationand demonstration of the kingdom
of God.
Okay, it's like God's reign isbreaking into the world through
me and this is what the goodnews sounds like and looks like.
That's the gospel of Jesus.
The gospel about Jesus is howthe letters and epistles, mostly

(24:24):
written by Paul, then focus onJesus's death and resurrection
as good news.
Okay, and again many scholarspoint out to, we have to attend
to both of these.
Like NT Wright has a lot to sayabout how this is the message
that Jesus preached and embodied, which honestly wasn't a whole
lot about personal salvation andgoing to heaven after you die,

(24:45):
but it was an announcement andinauguration of the good news of
God's kingdom.
And later we get more of thedots being connected about how
that connects to our personalsalvation.
Right, yeah, okay.

(25:08):
So I thought, hey, maybe wecould use that basic distinction
, to attend to how we see Godstooping and bending to meet us
where we are in Jesus, thegospel of Jesus and then the
gospel about Jesus.

Speaker 2 (25:15):
Yeah, yeah.
So we see this all over inJesus' ministry, his ability and
his desire to bend and to meetpeople where they are.
One example I thought of is astory of Zacchaeus.
Zacchaeus, like the song thewee little man.

Speaker 3 (25:34):
I cannot hear that story without thinking of that
song.
I really can't.

Speaker 2 (25:38):
Oh man, yeah, it's pretty ingrained.
Yeah, but yeah.
So Zacchaeus, he's a taxcollector and he climbs up in a
tree to see Jesus walking by,because there's crowds
everywhere and it does make thedistinction that he's short, but
whatever.
But when Jesus sees him upthere, he walks right up to him

(25:59):
and he just says I'm coming overto your house today, which is a
sort of a seems like a boldassertion that I'm just going to
invite myself over and noticewhat he doesn't do.
He doesn't try to pull him awayand try to like bring him over
to the synagogue or somethinglike that.
He just invites himself overand enters right in.

(26:22):
And it's important to note thathe was a tax collector.
So the people that were hangingaround him were not the good
like, as we would say, like goodpeople.
These were the people that thePharisees called sinners.
So he's walking over and sayingI'm coming over to your house
and I'm going to hang out.

(26:42):
Hang out with you for dinner,I'm coming over to your house
and I'm going to hang out withyou for dinner.
Inviting himself and thenhanging around people that would
have given him a poorreputation and it was probably a
party with lots of other stuffgoing on is not embodying a God
who waits for us to come to him,but he's willing to bend

(27:07):
towards us and to meet us in ourreality.
So do you guys have otherexamples?
Yeah, no, I love that, I thinkyou just can't get the song out
of your head.
I just cannot get that song.
Gosh, that's a terrible song.

Speaker 3 (27:24):
But I just love imagining that we can read these
stories over and over and hearthem, but then to really just
imagine what that would havebeen like to like, hey, I'm
going to come to your house.
I imagine he'd be like what?
My house isn't good enough foryou, it's not cleaned up, yeah.
Another one that comes to mindfor me is Jesus meeting the

(27:48):
woman at the well, where itseems as though she's kind of
embarrassed about the fact thatshe has multiple husbands.
She's living with a man that'snot her husband, and Jesus just
acknowledges her reality and heseems to do so in a way that
doesn't shame her, ratherdignifies her.
But it doesn't dignify her bybeing like oh yeah, no, it's,
you know, it's good.
Like let's not even talk aboutthat, because that might make
her feel weird.
Like he actually.
He actually, he exposes thefull truth of a situation that

(28:13):
would have made her feel shame.
But instead of heaping on shame, he meets her with grace in
that moment.
But what sticks out to me isthat the grace wouldn't be as
deep or have as much potentialif he didn't first meet her in
reality.
Does that make sense?
Like if he would just sort ofgloss over things, or reframe it

(28:34):
or not really spend a lot oftime there.
It's like she wouldn't havebeen able to experience the
depth of his grace and his lovein that moment.

Speaker 1 (28:41):
I think it's probably a worthy exercise to read one
of the gospels, or all four,simply through this lens of.
How do we see Jesus bending andstooping to meet people in
their brokenness?
Because you see it from thevery beginning, I mean even in
the Christmas story of Jesus isGod in the flesh.
How does God arrive in theworld?
Well, he's born to a Jewishpeasant couple, not an important

(29:05):
, you know, not people who arenotable or have a name of any
kind.
They're from a podunk town inthe middle of nowhere.
Nazareth wasn't even on the map.
He's, you know, the first peoplewho hear this good news are
shepherds, which were like thebottom of the barrel in terms of
a social hierarchy.

(29:25):
It's almost as if when Godarrives in the world, he's going
out.
God is going out of the way togo.
I'm going to the lowest of thelow, to the forgotten and to the
marginalized, just to show thatwhen I bend and stoop, nobody
is outside of my reach.
And then that just kind ofcontinues throughout Jesus's
life and ministry, whether it'sZacchaeus, or the woman at the
well, or the woman caught inadultery, or the sinful woman

(29:48):
anointing his feet, or even toother people, like healing the
soldier whose ear was cut off byPeter's poor swordsmanship.
Like you know, it's all overthe place.
It's all over the place.
You constantly see Jesusannouncing this good news and
embodying it by bending to meetpeople right where they are, not

(30:10):
where they should be, and theultimate picture that he gives,
I think, is not just the cross,but also we just got done
preaching about the parable ofthe prodigal father.
I mean, the entire context ofthat parable is the religious
leaders, sort of like, gripingabout who Jesus is hanging out
with.
And then he tells this story ofthe younger son who makes a
mess of his life, and the fatherruns out to meet him, as he is

(30:33):
full of love, with arms openwide.

Speaker 3 (30:35):
Right, yeah, yeah, right.
So we're talking about howJesus gives us this perfect
picture of God stooping to meetus where we are.
And, mac, you gave thisdistinction, which I think is
helpful gospel of Jesus andgospel about Jesus.
I agree, we very much see thisin the gospel of Jesus and his
life and ministry and theteachings that he proclaimed.
I also think much see this inthe gospel of Jesus, in his life
, in ministry, in the teachingsthat he proclaimed.

(30:57):
I also think we see this in thegospel about Jesus.
So again, gospel about Jesus isthe story of Jesus's life,
death and resurrection, probablymore what most of us would
think of when we hear the termthe gospel.
The gospel tells us that Jesuscame to earth as God in the
flesh, engaged in the humanexperience, lived fully without
sin, submitted to death on across, rose again on the third

(31:20):
day and, through hisresurrection, defeated the
powers of sin, death and evil inthe world.
So that's a story we're allfamiliar with.
But when we look at this gospelthrough the lens of what we're
talking about today, I think wesee that the gospel about Jesus
gives us a picture of Godmeaning us in reality, because
the truth of the gospel is thatGod moves towards us in Jesus,

(31:41):
despite the fact that we arestuck in sin.
Right that verse that sayswhile we were sinners, christ
died for us.
So the gospel shows how Godcame to us, not the other way
around.
So I think if we look at this,you know, in the light of the
axiom we're talking about, itshows us that, okay, the gospel
isn't about escaping reality orpretending or cleaning ourselves

(32:02):
up.
It's about God entering ourreality.
The incarnation is God meetingus in our messy reality, and the
whole story of Jesus and thestory of his life, death and
resurrection has this writtenall over it.

Speaker 1 (32:17):
Yeah, it's almost like the letters make explicit
what we see Jesus doing in thegospels he who knew no sin
became sin for us, that we mightbecome the righteousness of God
.
Right.
Ephesians 2 says because of hisgreat love for us, god, who is
rich in mercy, made us alivewith Christ, even when we were
dead in our transgressions.
It is by grace you have beensaved.
So I very much see the letterssort of making explicit what

(32:43):
Jesus is embodying in thegospels, and that's why we never
wanna drive a wedge between theof or about right.
We need both.
And a healthy church whoaccurately proclaims the good
news is not only gonna announcethe inauguration of God's
kingdom in Jesus and embody thatgood news by living like Jesus,

(33:04):
but they're also gonna be ableto connect the docks and make
explicit what this accomplishesfor people, right.
Yeah.
In everyday life.
So I think what you're hearingfrom us so far is just to say
look, this good news we seethroughout the scripture and
most explicitly in Jesus, andit's beautiful and it's good,
yeah, yeah, it is really goodnews.

Speaker 2 (33:26):
The good news is like we don't have to pretend.
So we don't have to.
We don't have to cleanourselves up, we don't have to
make ourselves into somethingelse for God to accept us in
some sort of way of like oh Godsees our potential and waits for
us to meet it.
We can just be honest.

(33:47):
We can sit with God and tellhim and be honest about where we
are, even in our shortcomings,and that's really refreshing,
being able to be honest in ourmess and sort of like submit to
what God is doing, no matterwhere we are, and in fact, I

(34:09):
think we'll probably get to.
It is like our most like whenwe're pretending less, we're
actually going to.
We're going to experience moreof God's um, uh presence and
activity because we're not deal,because God isn't going to deal
with us in this pretending fakeface, um that when we come to

(34:30):
him as our most honest selves,um, we, we are going to be able
to experience his love and hisgoodness.

Speaker 1 (34:37):
Like the biggest breakthroughs.
I think what I hear you saying,josiah, is the biggest
breakthroughs spiritually happenwhen we are where we are, and
sometimes we're not even awareof where we are.
This is why, in our leadershipintensives, we often talk about
not just being honest about ourpublic beliefs and our private
beliefs, but trying to getunderneath the surface to our

(34:57):
core beliefs.
And one of the only ways to dothat is to like look at how you
show up particularly understress.
So, for example, peter, rightBefore Jesus goes to the cross,
he's like I will die for you Ifeverybody else falls away, I'm
gonna stay true.
Like he's confident that he'sannouncing.
Here's my public belief I'mgoing to be faithful.

Speaker 3 (35:19):
And he really believes it.

Speaker 1 (35:20):
He really believes it and Jesus even says no, this is
what's going to happen.
And we see the initial, maybedesire to follow through on that
when, again, due to poorswordsmanship, he like tries to
strike out when Jesus is beingarrested.
But then stress happens, allthe other disciples desert him
and he kind of follows from adistance and you get like this

(35:42):
little window into oh, there's alittle bit more like
self-protective behavior therethan he thought.
And then he's in the courtyardand all of a sudden the core
beliefs start to come out hey,aren't you a Galilean, aren't
you associate?
And three times he denies him.
And it's this brutal momentwhere, when the rooster crows,

(36:04):
peter is full of self-regret andhe weeps over the fact that he
just disowned his beloved masterand friend.
But, look, it's that moment thatcreates an opportunity to be
restored and to attend tosomething that otherwise would
have never happened, and we'vetalked about this story before
on the podcast.

(36:24):
But when Jesus restores Peter,he allows him to proclaim his
love three times right.
And so life has this way ofsort of exposing our core
beliefs, what's really trueabout where we are, and then, as
we see in Jesus, he meets us inthose moments with grace and
provides restoration and visionfor moving forward.

(36:45):
You know, what I mean yeah.
And I so want that for my kids.
I so want this for my kids whenthey mess up.
I can't tell you how many timesI've told them yes, when you
mess up, we're gonna deal withthat so you can learn and grow.
But the most important thing isthat when you mess up, you know
you can come to me and be fullyhonest about what happened and

(37:06):
grace is waiting for you there.
Every time they mess up, Iusually say that yep, what's
waiting for you here, Grace?
You can expect grace from me.
And yet, when they mess up andmake a mistake, do you think
that they come to me withouthiding or like partial truce or
whatever?
No, it's always like they'rescared to trust it.

(37:27):
Right, yeah, it's so innate.
Yes, and, if I'm honest, I'mscared to trust it too.
At times it's scary to kind oflike look at all, that's there,
what really happened, believingthat God stoops to meet me right
there with grace and love,rather than judgment or
accusation or these other thingswe often impose on ourselves.

Speaker 2 (37:51):
Yeah, it's scary when , when you mess up to to face
the full reality of what you did, um sometimes and and the
impact it has.
I mean, we just talked aboutlike right in our forgiveness uh
series about some of the theprocess of like.
When you have to like sit withsomeone in that, it can be

(38:13):
really scary.
It's easier to pick and choosethe parts that I'm honest about.

Speaker 3 (38:20):
Of course.
Well, pretending is not onlyeasier, it's safer, right, and
if I can go to a limb for amoment, I might venture to guess
that the church might even bethe very place where we are most
tempted to fake it.

Speaker 1 (38:38):
Why do you say that?

Speaker 3 (38:39):
Well, I think church just comes with this idea that,
oh, this is the place wherewe're supposed to be joyful,
right, because why wouldn't webe?
Because we've experienced thegrace of God and he's present
among us and, oh man, whywouldn't we be excited about
that?
And we certainly can be excited.
But I think that can get, thatcan get skewed in a way that
that we end up internalizing as,oh, I can't really be my true

(39:02):
self in church or in spiritualplaces or with you know, quote
unquote spiritual people.

Speaker 1 (39:10):
Struggle comes to mind.
Struggle Like if you'restruggling yeah, with sin or
something.

Speaker 3 (39:15):
It's like a place where we're, you know we put our
best foot forward right, yeahand I think, frankly, a lot of
times we do get away with fakingit.
Like why do we fake it?
Well, because it works.
Like think about you know,think about I'm sure we all know
.
Like maybe a couple whoannounced that they were getting
divorced and you're totallyshocked because you thought they

(39:36):
had a happy marriage and itcomes to light that oh no, we've
been struggling for years andno one knew because we didn't
talk about it.
It's easier to present an imagethat doesn't match where we
really are and I think mosttimes we get away with it, and
doing anything different feelsscary, scary.

Speaker 2 (39:55):
Scary, yeah, and I think that this brings a lot of
things to mind.
I think that it's like bothsides of the equation are
contributing to the idea offaking it in church, because I
think most of us, when we go tochurch, are hoping to have a
positive, happy experience wherenothing goes wrong, and I

(40:17):
wonder what it would look likeif church was the type of place
where someone could come in.
Let's just picture someonewalks in to church on Sunday
morning and they're drunk fromthe night before.
How uncomfortable wouldeverybody be, right?
I'm not advocating that peoplecome to church drunk.

(40:39):
What are you saying, josiah?

Speaker 1 (40:40):
I'm stating that if someone was really struggling,
Adam, don't do it, don't comethis weekend, so we can find out
.

Speaker 3 (40:45):
Hungover maybe, but not drunk.

Speaker 2 (40:47):
Right, like everyone would be uncomfortable, the sea
would part right right aroundthem and then people would be
like oh my God, you see thatRight.
So it's a little bit of humannature, I would.
I wonder what it would looklike if church was the place of
safety where people could be,like really struggling, and they

(41:10):
show up where they are becausethey want to meet Jesus.
Right, and I'm not saying Iknow that's idealistic and
there's like maybe it'sromanticized a little bit of
what it would look like forsomeone to be welcomed with open
arms, who shows up Sundaymorning drunk, right.
I am just naming that.
There's a reality on both sidesof the equation where it's

(41:32):
difficult to be honest and thenthe other side of it is like
people don't always's difficultto be honest, and then the other
side of it is like people don'talways want you to be honest.
They would rather exist in anequilibrium where everything's
fine.

Speaker 3 (41:45):
Yeah, yeah, like if you are in a tough spot because
you had a rough night the nightbefore, for whatever reason.
Are you going to come to church?
Are you going to stay home andhide?
And I hear what you're saying.
Saying is we want to?

Speaker 2 (42:01):
be a church where people can come as they are.
Yeah, and then we figure it out.

Speaker 1 (42:03):
Seems like we've made a shift in our conversation,
and it's a good one.
We started Katie, at the verybeginning, said hey, this is
good news and hard news, and Ithink we're starting to kind of
name like there are pieces ofthis that God bends and stoops
to meet us where we are withgrace and love.
It's actually hard.
It's hard, and we, you guys, wesee this in the gospel.

(42:25):
Despite the fact that Jesuscomes embodying good news, full
of grace and truth, noteverybody experiences it that
way.
Right, the religious leaders,the very people who probably
should have had a pulse on whatGod was doing in the world,
certainly should have been ableto recognize when God incarnate
was standing in front of them,not only missed it, but

(42:48):
experienced the proclamation,embodiment of this good news as
a threat.
Why?
Well one, they were offended.
They were offended by Jesus'sgrace and how he met people in
their mess.
We already kind of alluded tothat.
They sort of bristled at thepeople Jesus was keeping company
with, but they were alsodisrupted by Jesus because they

(43:11):
had all these theologicalcertainties that Jesus was
undoing, related to sin and howto relate to it.
In addition to that, it seemslike they had worked really hard
to maintain or craft sort of aspiritual persona.
They had a lot invested intotheir spiritual persona that
they had cultivated, and Jesus,in meeting them, where they were

(43:31):
involved, exposing that personafor what it is, you know.
And so I guess my point is isthat, yeah, this is incredibly
good news that you don't need tofix yourself or change yourself
, that God loves you and stoopsand bends to meet you exactly
where you are in reality.
And it's also hard news becausewe have a hard time being

(43:55):
honest with ourselves, right,and I think it'd be worth having
a conversation about why thatis.
Why is it that we sometimeshave a hard time meeting
ourselves or being honest withourselves about where we really
are?

Speaker 2 (44:12):
Yeah, I think this can be difficult news for those
of us who and I say us becauseI'm human struggle with feeling
like we can pretend with otherpeople and we can show up with
insincere motives with otherpeople and convince them really

(44:33):
easy, but in reality God does.
God is not fooled by that.
So just as we might be able toconvince someone else where
we're fine or we have it alltogether, um the more we try to
pretend with God, um then thenthe good news becomes a
challenge to our own news, ifthat makes sense.

(44:55):
So the more fake we are, or themore we are pretending, the
stronger this gospel, this goodnews that God is here in reality
, becomes a challenge to our ownnarratives.
The reality is we can foolourselves and other people, but
we can't, we, we can't fool GodLike we convince the people

(45:19):
around us.
God knows what's really goingon, every thought, every feeling
, every action.
He knows everything about usand he still moves in to be
close to us.
So I guess I just the challengethen is to identify which of
that part of me I've convincedother people or myself that I'm

(45:43):
fine when I'm not, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (45:45):
So maybe to just sort of think of an example to
illustrate what I hear yousaying is when we walk around
saying I'm fine, everything'sfine, even though it's really
not fine.
In order to meet God there, Ihave to confront the reality
that I'm actually not fine,right, like I actually have to
do the hard work of going okay.
Well, god isn't fooled by mypretense and what is actually

(46:08):
going on inside of me.

Speaker 1 (46:10):
Fine, but not fine.
Remember, Fine, but not fine assome might say.

Speaker 2 (46:18):
Yeah, there's like my internal parts of like being
able to be honest with what I'mreally struggling with.
The other part I heard, likeyou naming is like with the
Pharisees.
Now there becomes this thepretense is that it's not just
that I'm trying to convincemyself I'm fine.
Now I am using I'm projectingthat out onto other people that
that I've got it and you don't.
And Jesus was upending that.

Speaker 1 (46:39):
Yeah, yeah.
It's like God bends to meet usin reality, but God doesn't bend
reality for us.

Speaker 3 (46:48):
That's a good one Explain what you mean by that.

Speaker 1 (46:50):
Yeah, I'll say it again God bends or stoops to
meet us in reality.
But I don't think God bends ordistorts reality for us and we
see that throughout the gospels.
When people are coming at Jesuseither self-deceived or with
poor motives, they're trying to,like, manipulate Jesus, or

(47:10):
they're coming at Jesus withpretense or they're insincere.
What does Jesus usually do?
Is he so clever?
He finds ways to hold up amirror and help them see what
they're doing and where theyreally are.
Like, here's reality.
So, for instance, the rich youngruler right, very dramatic

(47:32):
throws himself at Jesus's feet.
What must I do to inheriteternal life?
Jesus says why do you call megood?
So he's already kind of tryingto cut through the performance,
all these things I've kept myentire life.
And he says one thing you lackand kind of holds up a mirror to
where he really is Bending tomeet him, stooping to meet him

(47:53):
where he really is, but notbending reality or distorting it
in the process.
Um, you, you see this all overthe place, like with some of the
healings that happens the manwith the withered hand at the
synagogue or the paralytic um,you see the Pharisee, sort of
snickering.
Who is this guy?
And he does it to, to hold up amirror, not only to heal or

(48:14):
embody the good news towards aperson who has a physical
ailment, but also to expose thefalse motives, the deceit, the
stuff underneath the surfacethat they're not willing to look
at or attend to.
Right.

Speaker 2 (48:26):
Yeah, and what comes to mind is like when the gospel
and this good news about God'sreality holds up a mirror in
front of us.
We have a choice, and I thinkthat the mirror itself, as we
see, did not bringtransformation in the lives of

(48:48):
the Pharisees.
So we have a response to make.
So we have a response to make.
We can either choose to be realand choose to be honest about
our motives, or we continue to,or we recoil and we try to
discredit and we try to we dodgeourselves.

(49:08):
We try to manipulate it into aform that meets us or reaffirms
us, rather than trying to shapeourselves into the likeness of
Jesus.

Speaker 3 (49:22):
We all pretend to be further along than we really are
.
I think.

Speaker 1 (49:26):
Yeah, and our pretending is often dodging
ourselves.
This is why, if you've been ina leadership intensive, you know
this.
But I notice many people have ahard time when they get into
that space because of thevulnerability, authenticity and
courage it requires.
But it's a space where we'reintentionally saying we're not
going to avoid reality, we'regoing to attend to it, no matter

(49:46):
how messy it is, as anembodiment of God's grace.
And so you may have heard thisphrase hug your cactus.
Mm-hmm grace.
And so you may have heard thisphrase hug your cactus.
You know there's a there's aclip on YouTube with Robert
Downey Jr who's introducing umMel Gibson.
But this is after Mel Gibsonhas done a bunch of embarrassing
and crummy stuff.
You know public intoxication,anti-semitic remarks, you know

(50:09):
drunk driving, all of it.
And now he's kind of beingwelcomed out onto this stage and
everybody's aware that MelGibson has messed up really bad.
And Robert Downey Jr is sort ofintroducing him.
And it's so clever because in aself-deprecating way, robert
Downey Jr talks about his ownstruggle with drug abuse and

(50:31):
substances and addiction,whatever, and he talks about how
Mel Gibson is the one who tookhim under his wing at the worst
moments and taught him how tohug his cactus.
And he says it's embracing yourugly parts, moving toward the
very dark parts of your soul,and how doing so actually allows

(50:52):
you to take responsibility forwrongdoing and produces humility
and character.
And so he introduces him bysaying "'Here's the guy who
taught me how to hug my cactus"'Would you please welcome him'.
You know, it's just thisgracious moment, and so that's
what makes this hard.
Is that being not only invitingJesus to meet us where we are.

(51:16):
But being where we are involveshugging our cactus, really
looking at those parts of ourlives that are prickly and a
little bit painful.
It's not fun, but it's thosemoments that invite us into
going.
There is what invites us intofreedom and to learn to trust
grace.
Right, and here's the thing you, you guys is avoidance.
I'm convinced that when weavoid it, it just delays the

(51:38):
work of real transformation.

Speaker 3 (51:41):
You mean?
It doesn't negate the need forit altogether.
If I pretend like I'm fine, Ijust can bypass the work of
transformation, well, that'swhat we think, isn't it?

Speaker 1 (51:50):
We think, hey, if I can pretend it's not there, it's
not there, it's not there, Idon't have to deal with it.
But what you dodged todaybecomes the wall you're going to
hit tomorrow.
You know what I mean.
Have you ever kicked a problemdown the road only for it to be
so much worse?
Later on Never.
Never happens, never, right,like, putting it off doesn't
make it go away, it just makesit harder tomorrow.

Speaker 3 (52:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (52:17):
Avoidance doesn't erase the need to change.
It just drags out the painuntil you're willing to change.
Yeah, you know.

Speaker 3 (52:22):
Yeah, I think it limits us right.
Avoidance sort of keeps us inmore of a spiritually immature
state.
I think if we want to grow inour maturity spiritually,
emotionally If we want healing,it starts by getting honest
about where we actually are.
You got to move through it.

Speaker 1 (52:41):
I remember years ago I was into running and I started
to develop this little pain onthe outside of my knee, on my
right knee, and I just ranthrough it for a while until I
couldn't.
It ended up being like two orthree years of avoiding it and
then finally I got to the pointwhere I was standing in the

(53:02):
kitchen and my knee started tobuckle just standing there.
I wasn't even doing anythingand boom.
And so I ended up going ingetting an MRI and I had a
meniscus tear in my meniscus butthen a giant sort of cyst next
to it because of theinflammation that hadn't been
attended to for years and years.
It made it worse.

(53:22):
If I just like attended to itright away, you know, rather
than ignoring it and pushingthrough it, it just would have
been way easier in the long run.

Speaker 3 (53:32):
Sure, oh yeah, sure.
I could think of so manyphysical examples that we would
look at and go.
Well, of course, if you're sick, yeah, you wanna acknowledge
that you're feeling sick, so youcan do what you need to do to
get better, if you have cancer,broken boat, whatever.
So why is it that we look atthis from the spiritual
perspective and think ignoringit will help us get better?

Speaker 1 (53:50):
You know what's interesting that's popping for
me, as I just recall that momentin my life.
The thing that got me to go inwas Josie.
She's like, hey, when your kneeis buckling, this is often what
it means.
You need to get that looked at,you know, and it just
highlights, I think, the needfor community.
When we hear like, hey, godmeets you where you are, and
like you need courage andhonesty to hug your cactus and

(54:11):
be honest about where you reallyare, man, we need community to
do that.

Speaker 3 (54:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (54:16):
We need community to do that, and it strikes me that
this might be true on two levels.
One is we can't see ourselvesas we really are, so we all have
blind spots and parts of who weare that we're avoiding or
self-deceive, like we need otherpeople who lovingly hold up a
mirror and go this is what'sreally going on or this is what

(54:37):
I see and it's hurting you orit's harming your relationships
or whatever.
But then, secondly, is thosevery people then, um, when they
orient to us graciously, give usthe courage to believe that God
will meet us graciously, thatGod will meet us graciously,
yeah, can reshape our perception.

Speaker 2 (55:02):
You know, I think it's really sad to see when
people are met with these typesof challenges to their own
narrative or their own reality,which is why I think it's
important to start with Jesus sothat when they're challenged
about something, maybe they'renot doing well in loving other
people.
The mirror is the life andteachings of Jesus and not just

(55:25):
our own opinions.
But the sad thing is to watchpeople continually resist that
work of just being real andhonest and, um, to watch what it
does to their relationships andyou can watch what it happens
to as they move from church tochurch to try to find the

(55:45):
reality that most meets theirform of it and, um, I don't know
.
I just find it really sad whenpeople I think the work of
avoiding it not only hindersyour own transformation, but
it's going to hinder yourability to walk alongside other
people and in relationship withpeople who don't fit your exact

(56:07):
box of what it's supposed to be.

Speaker 3 (56:09):
Yeah, I mean.
I think honesty is whereintimacy truly begins Like.
Look at any relationship, lookat your marriage.
Do you feel closer to yourspouse when they're being honest
about what's actually going onin their lives?

Speaker 1 (56:22):
Sometimes, or do you feel?

Speaker 3 (56:25):
closer to them if they're like no, everything's
great, I'm good.
I mean, look at your kids.
Would you feel better if theywere comfortable enough to tell
you when something's botheringthem or when they're scared, or
when they don't actually enjoyyour homemade spaghetti or
whatever?
Or do you want them to justsmile and fake it right?
I think when we're honest and weinvite other people to be
honest with us, it's where real,true relationship begins.

(56:49):
And so if we can look at otherrelationships and think, well,
yeah, of course that makes sense, I would submit that it's the
same with God.
Why would it be any different?
Like, true intimacy with Godrequires vulnerability, it
requires honesty, and when welean into honesty and we get
real with God about where we are, we experience freedom, not
shame.

(57:09):
We might anticipate shame, butwhen we honestly get honest,
what we experience, I think, isinstead something very different
.
And if we look at the Bibleagain, we see this reflected.
We've said this multiple times.
Take a look at the Psalms.
The Psalms show us what thishonest prayer looks like.
They're raw, they're unfiltered, they're sometimes angry,
sometimes confused.

(57:29):
So if the biblical authors canspeak this way with God, then
I'd like to think that we cantoo.
Right that we should be able toapproach him with total raw
honesty.
It's not going to scare himaway, he's not.
He's not scared off by yourtruth, he's drawn to it.
And when we stop hiding, weactually find rest.

Speaker 1 (57:51):
I guess that's a good word, Katie, and it captures
that dynamic of it's good newsand it's hard news.
It's good news that God meetsus where we are.
It's hard news because thatmeans we have to be honest.
But you can't get close withoutgetting real.
And once you get real with Godhonest with God about yourself
and about the circumstances ofyour life, all of it it leads to

(58:14):
breakthrough, just like anyrelationship.
If you've ever had someoneshare something kind of
confidential or a little bitvulnerable with you, what does
that do?
It creates intimacy, connection.
And vice versa.
When you entrust somethingthat's sort of sensitive about
your life to someone else, well,getting real in that way
produces a connection, itproduces some closeness, and so

(58:34):
why would we assume it's anydifferent with God?
God is saying, hey, there'snothing in your life you can't
share with me that I don'talready know and you're loved
anyways, you can get real withme.
And as you get real with me,one of the byproducts is we get
closer.
I'm curious, you guys, whereyou've experienced how you've

(58:58):
experienced this journey oflearning to trust God's grace
and being more honest with God,like actually trusting that he
meets you where you are and thatyou can be honest Like how have
you experienced that in yourlife?
You know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (59:12):
Yeah, I.
When I was younger, I had thisidea in my mind that my prayers
had to be well-formed before Icould pray out loud to God.
So I would be.
I would have lots of my ownthoughts and feelings, but then
if I was going to talk to God, Ineeded it to be well-formed and

(59:36):
perfectly articulated in orderto say it out loud and hopefully
rhyme.
Yeah, that was great.

Speaker 3 (59:43):
A haiku.

Speaker 2 (59:45):
But what as over the years?
As learning that some of thesetruths that God is like wants to
meet me in reality, learning tojust talk openly with God in
prayer, has been a pretty bigbreakthrough.
Cool, and being able to it'sproduced a lot of more intimacy,
where you feel more connectedand you realize that like I can

(01:00:09):
say anything to God and healready knows everything about
it anyway, it's like thatfeeling when you do something
wrong, it's like it sits withyou until it's addressed.
There's this cathartic releasewhen you're you want it's.
It sits with you until it'saddressed.
Like there's this catharticrelease when you're able to say

(01:00:29):
it Um, it's not always just whenyou're doing something wrong,
but I think there's somethingsimilar that happens when you're
just willing and when you'rewilling to just talk openly
about what's going on with Godand and I've found that like
physically out loud, is superhelpful not just in my head.

Speaker 3 (01:00:50):
Yeah, I have a few memories of doing this, and
probably one in particularthat's more vivid to me and I
think for me these memories areof like this idea of sitting
with God when I feel shame.
So there are a couple of thingsthat might trigger shame for me
.
Some would be like, if I don'tshow up the way that I want to

(01:01:12):
with my husband or with my kids,like maybe I'm less than
patient, maybe I'm barkingorders in a way that doesn't
reflect how I want to be presentwith them, that's how it can
typically show up.
There in my personal life, inthe professional context,
sometimes I feel a lot of shamearound, looking like incompetent
.
So I have this vivid memory ofit.

(01:01:36):
Kind of in my prior career I dida fair amount of public
speaking.
I would give trainings, I wouldpresent at board meetings,
sometimes pretty well attendedboard meetings with media there,
et cetera, et cetera.
And I remember one instance.
I couldn't even tell you thedetails, but I just remember
doing some type of publicpresentation at a board meeting
or something, and I must've beenasked a question and didn't
feel great about my response.

(01:01:56):
Didn't feel like it was as goodas it should have been.
And the next day I rememberjust ruminating on it and
ruminating on it and beatingmyself up and then sensing that
almost like God was inviting meto sit in the reality of that
and that invitation from Godreally pushed against my
defaults.
Like my default would be eitherto like distract, like oh,

(01:02:16):
don't think about it, that justfeels yucky, so we're just going
to go do something else ormaybe to reframe oh, it didn't
really go that bad, like itwasn't, like that.

Speaker 1 (01:02:25):
I crushed it.
I crushed it it quick or to fix.

Speaker 3 (01:02:28):
Maybe I like oh, if I like send this email or say
this thing, then I'll likerestore my reputation and
everyone will think I'mcompetent again.
Whatever I can do lots ofdifferent things, but in this
moment I remember God invitingme to sit and be honest about
all that, that shame andembarrassment I was feeling and
you guys literally gosh.
I remember almost feeling likeI was stepping into quicksand.

(01:02:50):
That went all the way up to myneck and I just it felt terrible
.
I sort of had to admit all theways I was beating myself up
internally and like all thatnegativity.
But until I was able to admitthe shame I was living in, I
couldn't experience the fullnessof God's grace.
And I remember that, like Iremember sort of when I sat in

(01:03:10):
that place it became clear that,well, god doesn't see me that
way, I see myself this way, andonce I can acknowledge that it's
me that sees myself this way, Ican actually experience the
fullness of God's grace and hislove.
In that moment, and withoutgetting honest and meeting him
in that reality, I would havekept avoiding it and I would
have ultimately missed thatopportunity to get to know God

(01:03:32):
and his love at a deeper level.
Does that make sense?

Speaker 1 (01:03:35):
Totally.
I can share similar examples,katie.
The biggest one that I'veshared it, I think, on our Ash
Wednesday service was Josiah.
You and I were on retreat andthe guy who was leading the
retreat had some work in AA.
And the fourth step of AA iswhat they call a fearless moral

(01:03:56):
inventory and I sense Godinviting me to do that on the
retreat, which involves kind ofbeing honest about all of your
sin and all the ways it affectspeople, and it took me a long
time that weekend to kind ofwrite it all out, get it all out
on paper, but it was a big stepof going.
I can be honest about all thisstuff, knowing you love me and
you already see it anyway, so Idon't have to dodge myself.

(01:04:19):
And it's not just a one-timething.
I often do like a prayer ofexamine most days and, katie, I
think that the story you sharedis something that is sort of a
gauge on how honest I'm being.
In that prayer of examine itoften starts with just sitting
in God's presence and namingthings you're grateful for, and
then you replay your day inGod's presence, going God, what

(01:04:40):
do you want me to attend to ornotice?
And I can often tell howhonestly I'm showing and how
long I'll sit with the momentsthat I wasn't at my best Maybe a
wonky interaction with Josie orthe kids or something that
happened at work.
Like it's so easy to wanna gooh, I'll just gloss over that.

(01:05:00):
But I've learned over the yearsto go no.
When I sense the Holy Spiritwanting to sit, that's the
moment to stop and just to bethere and look at it as honestly
as I possibly can, for as longas needed, trusting God's grace,
and it's kind of become abreakthrough practice for me.

Speaker 3 (01:05:19):
And is it still hard?

Speaker 1 (01:05:20):
Yeah, of course it is .
Because you experience shame,all the things that Adam and Eve
felt I want to deflect andblame other people.
If they had done this, Iwouldn't have done that.
I want to hide.
I don't want to.
You know what I mean.
And again, this goes back tothe point where, like, our sin
doesn't separate God from us.
He's waiting for me right inthat moment.
That happened that day, butit's me.

(01:05:40):
I'm the problem, like I'm theone who goes into hiding.
My sin is separating me fromthe grace of God.

Speaker 3 (01:05:46):
Yeah, newsflash, he sees it anyways.
Yeah, totally.

Speaker 1 (01:05:49):
So let's flip the coin because we're narrating,
hey, there's a journey inlearning to experience this
ourselves, but there's also ajourney in learning how to
embody this for other people.
And my goodness, you guys, likeI had, like I don't have a
conversion story, I don't have atime where I don't remember
following Jesus.

(01:06:09):
But if I had to narrate aconversion story, it's like a
post-conversion conversion storywhere it's like, hey, the
Christianity I sort of wasexposed to and embraced,
especially at the end of highschool, ended up creating a
pretty judgmental person rightwhen I was constantly evaluating
and sizing other people up and,of course, sort of subtracting

(01:06:30):
worth from them.
In a spiritual sense of, Icould feel better about myself.
It was very judgmental and ittook me a while to learn like
that isn't the posture, likethat is not the posture of Jesus
.
So I'm curious for you guys howhave you also not just learned
to trust God's grace butactually to embody this kind of

(01:06:51):
grace towards other people?
If God stoops to meet you whereyou are, how have you learned
to stoop and bend to meet otherpeople where they are?

Speaker 3 (01:07:01):
Yeah, well, one thing I've had to realize over time
is that I can't control people.
You know, sometimes I'd like tothink I can but turns out I
can't, and sometimes I forgetthat.
But I think for me, justrealizing I can't control people
or make them be anywhere thatthey aren't, and so I might as
well meet them with grace in themoment, as God does with me.

(01:07:24):
God doesn't control me.
I suppose he could, but hechooses not to, and so he gives
me all this freedom and all thisagency to go, make a mess of
things and then experiencing himmeeting me in that mess, that I
could have prevented.
But off I went on my own way,trying to get life for myself.
And now here I sit, I think,sitting in that receiving his

(01:07:44):
grace then allows me to takethat mindset with other people
rather than going oh how couldyou do that again?
How, like, how are you hereagain?
I can't believe you should havedone this, you should have done
that.
I'm kind of a fixer, so I liketo like fix people and set them
on a path so they'll never makethe mistake again.
What I didn't notice, that ohyeah, um, if everyone would just

(01:08:04):
listen to me, their life wouldbe so much better.
But I think, yeah, I think justremembering those moments, like
I described, of sitting withGod in my own messes certainly
helps me then extend that graceto other people.

Speaker 1 (01:08:16):
I have an intensity disorder.
I get randomly intense and thispast week I got a text from
someone that I really love andcare about, who also has some
moments of random intensity, andthis person texted me saying
they had gotten intense withsomeone the day before and then
had a sleepless night justtossing and turning with the

(01:08:39):
guilt and shame of intensity,Once again creating undo,
unnecessary friction or tensionin the relationship.
And you know, you can justimagine the wave of shame when
you didn't show up the way youwanted to.
And it was so clear to me as wewere texting back and forth
that like, ah, the shame.
This is like just ripe groundfor you to confuse God's voice

(01:09:02):
with Satan's voice, Like when wemess up.
It's just like fertile groundfor Satan to accuse and heap on
the guilt and shame in a waythat doesn't really represent
God's posture toward us.
And it was just really honestlyfun to text back and forth
about this incident because Ifelt like not only am I in the

(01:09:22):
inside of God's grace havingexperienced it myself, but with
this particular thing I've beenthere so many times and so
that's kind of what I'm talkingabout, At least part of my
experience, picking up on whatyou're saying, Katie, is when we
learn to trust and experienceGod's grace in our brokenness,
not only does it remove ourjudgmentalism and

(01:09:42):
self-righteousness, but actuallyequips us to go.
Hey, I'm not going to become anextension of the accuser,
heaping on guilt and shame whenother people are a mess, but I'm
going to become an advocatethat they can be where they are
and trust grace.

Speaker 3 (01:09:56):
And that is especially powerful when it's
truly from that place of yourown transformation.

Speaker 1 (01:10:01):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:10:01):
I've been there too, in that exact same place, and
like I can relate to.

Speaker 1 (01:10:06):
Yeah, yeah, and this is what's true.
God already sees it.
Your intensity isn't a barrierto God loving you.
In fact, most of the time it'sa gift.
And, yeah, sometimes it gets alittle bit too hot and that
produces shame and guilt, butGod's waiting for you there once
again to learn how to calibratethat underneath the leadership

(01:10:27):
of his spirit.
You're okay.

Speaker 2 (01:10:30):
Yeah, I think experiencing God in my
brokenness that way allows me tosit with people and let them
share their story and not feeluncomfortable.
Similar to Katie, I feel noneed to fix.
Um, when you've experienced howtransformative it can be to

(01:10:54):
just have God be present to youwhen you're broken, um, you
realize that just being nearpeople in their brokenness has a
transformative power in itself.
Obviously, there's next stepsfor people who have screwed

(01:11:14):
stuff up, and it doesn't meanthat they don't need advice.
It's just I think experiencingit for myself has allowed me to
understand how transformative itis to just listen to someone's
story when they're broken, andthat in itself sometimes can be.
It's a very important part of ahealing process for someone

(01:11:35):
who's going through something.

Speaker 1 (01:11:36):
You created this hypothetical of someone walking
into our church drunk you know,but maybe, by way of summary,
what we're talking about todayis this is a lens that Jesus
wore.
Jesus didn't have glasses, butif he did, we're saying this is
a lens that he wore that as Godin the flesh he was bending and
stooping to meet people wherethey are, in their brokenness.

(01:11:59):
What you're hearing from us andthis really is the work of a
healthy church is to learn toexperience God's grace in our
brokenness ourselves.
Of a healthy church is to learnto experience God's grace in
our brokenness ourselves andthen to become the kind of
people that know how to stoopand bend to meet people where
they are so they can experienceGod's grace.
Such that if you were to walkin on Sunday morning totally a

(01:12:19):
mess there'd be a community ofpeople that wouldn't be standing
in judgment or sort of makingsnarky comments or casting weird
gazes at you, but rather youmight actually have people
surrounding you with love andcare, intentionally engaging you
out of care and concern, right?
Yeah, well, let's close thisout.

(01:12:42):
Let's start to land this plane.
It's Praxis time, that's good.

Speaker 3 (01:12:47):
Praxis podcast.
We's good Praxis podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:12:49):
We've got some practices for you, and I want to
share the first one, and it'sjust simply this it's to hug
your cactus, a practice beinghonest with God, and this is the
only way you're going to learnhow to trust grace.
And so, katie, you and I werejust kind of bantering about
really slowing down andattending to those moments that

(01:13:12):
maybe provoke the deepest shamewhen we mess up during the day,
and that's what I'm talkingabout.
One concrete practice for youto do is just to create some
space, maybe a few timesthroughout the week, where
you're reflecting on how you'reliving, and don't dodge those
moments where you weren't atyour best, but rather see those
as the greatest opportunity toexperience God's grace and love

(01:13:35):
for you.
That'd be the first practiceI'd name.

Speaker 3 (01:13:38):
Yeah, yeah.
And then I would name apractice of just being honest
with others, like just practicegetting honest.
I think at one point one of yousaid being honest with others,
like just practice gettinghonest.
I think at one point one of yousaid, you know, being honest
with other people helps us toget to have the courage to be
honest with God.
And I would say learning to behonest with God also helps us be
more honest with other people.

(01:13:58):
So, just you know, showing uphonestly in what's true, in your
relationships, in your marriagewith your kids, with your
parents, with your friends,coworkers, et cetera.
And if this idea scares you,maybe something in particular
comes to mind or somethingsticks out as like oh, this is
an area where I haven't beencompletely honest.

(01:14:18):
Or if that idea just feels sortof foreign to you, I'd say maybe
two things.
One is just like start small,like find an area where you can
be honest with someone and leaninto that.
And the second thing I wouldsay is that it does take courage
, right, like it can feel scaryand it does take courage, but
it's worth it, because beinghonest with others is again an

(01:14:40):
outflow of being honest withourselves, being honest with God
.
You know there's the sort ofthe Catholic practice of
confession, but I think it'smore sort of the Catholic
practice of confession, but Ithink it's more than just a
Catholic practice.
It doesn't because confessiondoesn't have to be in a booth
with a priest, like we canpractice confession with trusted
friends or family members.
So if that's a way that that'shelpful, just to think about

(01:15:04):
this, like where can I maybeconfess something I'm struggling
with, or show up vulnerably, orjust show up honestly and
authentically with someone thatI trust.

Speaker 1 (01:15:08):
Yeah, I mean confession is one of the one
another's in the new Testament.
Um and and yeah, it's anincredible gift when you can be
honest about something in yourlife where you're not at your
best and you can hear someoneelse see some see it, see it on
their face, their compassion,their kindness, announcing
forgiveness to you.

Speaker 2 (01:15:29):
We need that yeah, a third practice I would name is
to embody practice embodyinggrace to someone else.
So use it as like a, as a lensto view um the next time you see
someone who makes a mistake inyour life or screw something up,
um, practice embodying, umstooping down, uh and and give

(01:15:56):
them grace.
Um, I think that uh like, yeah,maybe you can uh think of
someone you already know whoselife is a mess and, um, maybe
someone you've been avoidingbecause you're not quite sure
how to engage things.
So just practice figuring outwhat that looks like.
To just be there with someonewho's in the middle of a mess is

(01:16:22):
another good example for thisone is learning to meet with
grace first and then discuss thenext steps slash consequences
or whatever repair needs tohappen from something we're
often like.
Our instinct is to try tocontrol situations by doling out

(01:16:43):
consequences or disciplines orthings like that Out of a place
of anger, Like you're saying.

Speaker 3 (01:16:51):
the consequence comes in that place of anger and
reaction.

Speaker 2 (01:16:54):
Yeah, and often it's done out of a desire to try to
control the situation ratherthan applying what's best for
your kids.
So practice the next time youfeel that initial rush of anger
If your kid, when your kids messup um.
Practice showing grace first,um, and then kind of flipping

(01:17:15):
those two.
Love that.

Speaker 1 (01:17:17):
Well, it's good news, you guys.
You don't have to dodgeyourself.
You can receive God's graceright where you are and where to
become the kind of people thatknow how to extend that kind of
grace, to know how to extendthat kind of grace to other
people.
Thanks for joining us today.
We hope you enjoyed thisepisode.
Next time we're going to lookat a third core conviction when
it comes to multiplyingdisciples who live on mission in

(01:17:38):
the world, and it's this God islike Jesus.
Hope you'll tune in.

Speaker 4 (01:17:45):
Praxis is recorded and produced at Crosspoint
Community Church.
You can find out more aboutHope.
You'll your podcasts.