God's Kingdom Looks Like Jesus' Ministry

Episode Transcript
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Mac (00:02):
Welcome to Praxis, a podcast where we explore how to
practice and embody the way ofJesus in our everyday lives.
Thanks so much for taking thetime to listen.
We're in a series focused onour mental models for missional
discipleship.
This is a framework for livingout our faith as disciples of
Jesus in everyday life.
Whether we're aware of it ornot, we all have mental models,
deep convictions and assumptionsthat shape how we see and take

(00:25):
action in the world.
Mental models are kind of likeprescription lenses While often
invisible when wearing them,they consistently shape the way
we think, feel and act.
So what were the mental modelsJesus lived by?
What convictions shaped howJesus saw people, responded to
needs, formed disciples andjoined God's mission in the
world?
That's what this series is allabout.
Each week, we are unpacking akey conviction that shaped

(00:48):
Jesus' way of life.
We're exploring how it canshape ours too, as we seek to be
a community of disciples livingon mission in the way of Jesus.
Today, we're going to look at afourth core conviction, and
it's simply this God's kingdomlooks like Jesus' ministry.
Let's get into it.

Josiah (01:18):
Welcome everybody.
My name is Josiah and I am Mac.

Katie (01:21):
I'm Katie.

Josiah (01:23):
It's great to be here back in the room with you guys.
Depending on when you'relistening to this, this is back
to school week for most of us,and I was making observations of
my kids and it made me think ofa question I want to know from
both of you, my girls especially.
I have three middle schoolgirls now.

Katie (01:43):
Oh boy.

Josiah (01:45):
So lots of energy given to outfits, especially the first
day of school outfit, and so itmade me think, you know, it
made me reflect.
I just wonder how much I caredabout it, like what I wore to
the first day of school, and Irealized, like you know, I
really did, like it mattered alot to me.

(02:10):
I'm wondering if you guys haveany memories of like a back to
school outfit that you werereally excited about to wear to
your first day of school.
Maybe it's embarrassing, maybeit's not, I don't know.

Katie (02:19):
I definitely remember back to school shopping and I
know that when I was back toschool shopping I would always
pick out like one special outfitand then I think I would wear
that on the first day.
The only thing I remember is apair of white Fila's.
Do you guys remember Fila's?

Mac (02:35):
Not really the shoe brand Do you remember Fila?

Katie (02:37):
Yeah yeah, we had a pair of white Fila's, I don't know,
maybe fifth sixth gradesomewhere in there, and I was
super excited to wear them.
I don't know, maybe fifth sixthgrade somewhere in there, and I
was super excited to wear them.

Mac (02:45):
I went to a private school a Catholic school for Uniforms,
yeah.
So I had uniforms for quite awhile and then when I made the
jump to public school, then Igot to pick what I wore, which I
thought was really cool, I bet.
But I only really remember oneyear, josiah, where I remember

(03:05):
like doing preschool shoppingand then figuring out what I was
going to wear the first day orcarrying it, but like I wanted
to wear what we just bought, andthat was in going into ninth
grade and it was a really weirdyear for me because we lived in
atlanta for seventh and eighthgrade.
I lived in atlanta, georgia,and going into ninth grade my

(03:26):
dad told me we're moving back toMinnesota and I was really
pumped but I didn't have time tomove and play hockey without
moving there right away.
So I ended up living with mybest friend, ben and his family
for like three or four months,and so that necessitated some
like shopping beforehand to kindof get me ready and then send

(03:48):
me away.
And I remember the styles arecoming back.
They're kind of like a littlebaggier shorts, like my son, Tig
, is wearing baggy shorts again.
It was like you.
Look the way I looked in ninthgrade.
You know what I mean.
Oh, that is true Full circle.

Katie (04:02):
Full circle.
That is true, it's full circle.

Mac (04:03):
Full circle.
That is true, Full circle.
But I do remember, just likeyou were saying, Katie, shopping
for new stuff and then once youhad it, being like, well, this
is what I want to wear the firstday because I'm excited about
it.

Katie (04:14):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
My parents took Hudson, myfour-year-old, shopping last
weekend for a back-to-schooloutfit and he came home with a
stuffed minion.
He didn't care about theclothes, apparently, so he's got
his stuffy and there we go,we'll do brand hand-me-downs.
What about you, Josiah?
That's funny.

Josiah (04:30):
No, I remember there was one year that I had a pair of.
I got a pair of pants and Ithink they were more expensive
than my mom wanted to buy, so Igot less clothes that year.

Mac (04:45):
But you got the pants.

Josiah (04:46):
I did.
They were brown corduroy bootcut pants and I'm pretty sure
they'd be cool today.

Katie (04:54):
Yeah, you know what?
I'm pretty sure the boot cut.

Josiah (04:57):
They kind of flared at the bottom and I thought they
were awesome.

Mac (05:03):
It's unfortunate, you probably still don't have them.

Josiah (05:05):
Yeah, you know, I don't know if I'd fit in them anymore.

Katie (05:09):
They weren't as wide as like JNCOs.

Josiah (05:12):
No, they were just.
They were like slim at the top,so they were like they were
more slim at the top and then atthe bottom they flared out more
.
That might've been the year Isaved up some of my money and
got some Doc Martens.

Katie (05:26):
Yep, those were big hits.

Josiah (05:27):
That was cool and you never tied them.
I don't know Like you nevertied your boots when you wore
them.
No, you wore them.
I don't know like.
The more like it looked likeyou didn't care, the better.

Katie (05:40):
Until you trip and fall flat on your face.

Josiah (05:42):
Yeah, I just kind of leave them untucked and grow out
your hair and leave it longyeah.

Katie (05:48):
That's funny.

Mac (05:49):
Some fun days.
Well, I mean speaking of DocMartens, Fila's and bell-bottom
jeans.
You didn't say bell-bottoms.
Yeah, flare, Flare.
They weren't quite there, theyweren't quite the bell-bottoms.
Flare-y jeans baggy shorts, allthings 90s, all things 90s.

Katie (06:06):
I can picture the boy band styles Hanson.
Yeah, speaking of all that, weare in a newer series right now,
focused on our mental model formissional discipleship.
So what we mean by that is what?

Mac (06:21):
a mouthful.

Katie (06:21):
Th at is a mouthful no-transcript, I know it's a
little bit like Dr Seuss there.
Mental models for missionaldiscipleship, a framework for
living out our faith asdisciples of Jesus in everyday
life.
So in each episode we'reexploring some of our core
convictions or truths thatanchor us and guide us as we go
about being a community ofdisciples who live on mission in
the way of Jesus.

(06:42):
What's more is that we believethat these were the core
convictions that guided Jesus.
These were the mental modelsJesus used when making and
multiplying disciples to joinGod's mission in the world.
So we've covered a few of themso far.
We talked about how God'spresence precedes our
participation, how God bends orstoops to meet us in reality.

(07:02):
Last time we talked about howGod is like Jesus, and today
we're gonna unpack a fourthconviction that is central to
missional discipleship, and it'sthis God's kingdom looks like
Jesus's ministry.
God's kingdom looks likeJesus's ministry.

Mac (07:20):
Yeah, I do think it's worth repeating because I have to
keep telling myself this thatthese are lenses Jesus lived by.
These aren't just like ourlenses.
We're trying to put theselenses on because these are
lenses that Jesus wore and thatguided his way of seeing, being
and acting in the world.
And it does seem very clear tome that Jesus carried this

(07:44):
conviction that his life,ministry and teachings very much
embodied God's kingdom.
And so, yes, god's kingdomlooks like Jesus, jesus's
ministry, jesus doing life right.
So maybe we should start bylike unpacking some of the key
words.
I was thinking, hey, maybe weshould start with just talking

(08:06):
about what we mean by God'skingdom.
What does that mean, you know?

Katie (08:10):
Yeah.

Mac (08:11):
So you know we try to be conversational on this, but I
didn't know what else to do butlike, do a little teaching, is
that all right?
Yeah?
Like some teaching on thisphrase Sounds great.
Okay, what does God's kingdom?
Quote?
Unquote God's kingdom mean.
The most common definition isthat it refers to the
in-breaking reign of God.

(08:32):
Okay, that's kind of likecommon vernacular.
You'll hear, if you're readingcommentaries or theologians,
that God's kingdom refers to thein-breaking reign of God.
God's reign breaking in.
One of the most memorabledefinitions that I've heard came
from a professor of mine incollege, greg Boyd.
He said it's the dome in whichGod is king, it's the king's

(08:52):
dome kingdom king's dome.
It's the dome in which God isking.

Katie (08:57):
I like that.

Mac (08:57):
I do too.
It's easier to remember right,but just think about God's rule,
god's reign breaking into ourreality, breaking into earth,
and so heaven is sort of takingshape here and now.
There are a couple reallyimportant things to know about
God's kingdom, though, and oneis that the announcement of
God's kingdom was notnecessarily new.

(09:18):
With Jesus it's a rival, andthat it was happening in and
through Jesus is, but this wholeidea of God's kingship and
God's kingdom really goes allthe way back to the Old
Testament.
So I want to unpack that justfor a moment, and I want to kind
of just plant a seed that thiswasn't just a quote unquote
spiritual announcement, butactually a deeply political one,

(09:42):
like it had politicalimplications in its original
context throughout the OldTestament and certainly in
Jesus's day, and I wanna plant aseed that, as we get further
into this podcast, it will alsohave political implications for
us, make sense.
It does that feels like Is thatraising your temperature?

Katie (10:01):
Yeah, no, not temperature .
It just feels like somethingthat will raise curiosity, maybe
if we were listening to thisgoing huh, I wonder what he
means by that.

Mac (10:08):
Yeah, I think so, and I'm aware that that word political
automatically kind of triggerspeople.
I was actually reading a bookon emotional intelligence.
I'm reading a book right nowand it talked about how you
should never talk about politics.

Katie (10:30):
Interesting.

Mac (10:31):
And here's why I'm going to give you this quote.
I wrote it down last nightPeople's political beliefs are
too closely tied to theiridentities to be discussed
without incident.
Disagreeing with someone else'sview can quickly alter their
otherwise strong perception ofyou.
Political opinions are sodeeply ingrained in people that
challenging their views is morelikely to get you judged than to

(10:52):
change their minds.
Travis Dr, travis, bradbury,and so I just want to maybe
comment on that for a momentbefore we get into theology of
stuff.
Like he says, people's beliefsare closely tied to their
identities.
Did you notice that?
And in other words, I want tosay maybe we've made an idol of

(11:13):
our politics such that it'sbecome an identity marker for us
and actually, as followers ofJesus, our identity isn't in our
political affiliation, it's tobe in Christ, like over and over
and over.
There's this phrase in the NewTestament in Christ, in Christ,
in Christ.
Our identity is first andforemost in Christ.

(11:35):
And to the degree you put youridentity in anything else,
whether it's your job or career,whether it's your role as a
parent, how much money orpossessions you have or your
political party, that's actuallyidolatry, like you're putting
something in the place whereJesus ultimately belongs.
So I want to say, hey, time outfor a second.

(11:58):
If we put politics in anappropriate box, meaning it's
not our identity, then that allof a sudden should create some
non-reactionary space where wecan talk about it without
getting too emotionally charged.

Katie (12:11):
Right, do you guys follow it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Perhaps one of the end goals ofbecoming more emotionally
mature is that you can holdtension in conversation and talk
about things that matter a lot.
That's right.

Mac (12:23):
Yeah, that's right.
And to the degree that, like,my identity is fused with what I
think, or having to be right orwhatever, then I quickly become
like unraveled when someonedisagrees with me.
And I want to just put ourlisteners at ease right up front
.
I am not a politician, I'm nota political pundit.
I have no, I have no desire tochange where you're at

(12:46):
politically right now.
Like that is not the goal.
But I am trying to create spaceso that we can see something in
scripture that's there and thenwe can wrestle with the
implications later on.

Katie (12:57):

Mac (12:58):
Let's start with scripture.

Katie (12:59):
Yeah.

Mac (13:00):
Okay, let's do it.
So let's dive in a little bitIn the Old Testament.
This phrase actually doesn'toccur there, but it's a primary
conviction that gets like sortof clarified in Second Temple
Judaism.
And there's this Hebrew phrase,malkut Shamaim, and Malkut

(13:20):
means kingdom, shamaim means ofheaven, and so the phrase
literally means kingdom ofheaven.
Okay, and in the Old Testamentit was actually Melchut Yahweh,
which is the kingdom of Yahwehor the kingdom of the Lord.
But remember, jewish peopledon't pronounce the name Yahweh
out of respect and reverence.

(13:41):
So that's why during the Secondtemple Judaism phase, kind of
between the Old Testament andthe New Testament, that time
period, that 400-year gap, thisphrase melchut shamayim replaces
sort of the melchut Yahweh.

Katie (13:56):
Sure, because they can't say Yahweh.

Mac (13:57):
Right, exactly.
And you'll notice that whenJesus shows up on the scene in
Matthew's gospel, matthew iswriting to Jewish readers.
That's why in Mark and Lukethey use the phrase kingdom of
God, because they're writing toGentiles, so it's okay to use
that phrase.
But Matthew is writing toJewish listeners, so he's not

(14:19):
gonna use the word God, he'sgonna use the word heavens
instead.
That's why, when Jesus shows upin Mark and Luke, it's like
Jesus is announcing the kingdomof God, but in Matthew he's
saying the kingdom of heaven.

Katie (14:31):
Makes sense.
I never knew that.

Mac (14:32):
And it connects back to this primary conviction of the
kingdom of heaven, or kingdom ofYahweh, that goes throughout
the Old Testament.
Now, this phrase and thisconviction points to the sole
sovereignty of God.
It's this idea that God alonehas the right to rule and reign,
deep conviction for Jewishpeople in the Old Testament, and

(14:56):
it's sort of a fundamentaltenet of Jewish faith, and it
caused them to stand out.
Okay, throughout the OldTestament, this is like the
first commandment you shall haveno other gods before me, right,
you're to be faithful to mealone.
We see it show up in the Shemawhere it says hear, o Israel,
the Lord, your God, the Lord isone.
It's also a big theme throughfirst and second Chronicles, but

(15:17):
this whole idea is that, like,god alone has the right to rule
and reign, and this was radicalbecause, for Israelites, they're
living in a polytheisticculture where there's not one
God with a capital G, but manygods with a lowercase g, and so,
in saying Melchut, shamaim,they're saying no, there aren't

(15:40):
many gods, there's one God, andthat God alone gets my full
allegiance and loyalty.
You see how radical that is inthat cultural day and age.
In addition to that, though,there's also a, not just in the
spiritual realm, god versus godswith a lowercase g.
There's also sort of politicalimplications regarding human

(16:05):
leaders.
In Genesis 1 and 2, there wasno hierarchy in terms of
domination.
Human beings were createdunderneath God to be equal with
one another and serve in mutualsubmission and love, and so
baked into this conviction thatGod alone gets to rule and reign
also means that other humanbeings don't get to pretend to

(16:26):
be God and rule over me, which,of course, is why, throughout
the Old Testament, israel wasn'tsupposed to have a king.
Why?
Because God alone was theirking, yeah, and now all of a
sudden, they make this request,like we want to be, like other
nations, and Samuel and God seethis as a horrible thing and
ends up doing horrible things.
Because, look, god alone is tobe your God.

(16:47):
You're not to be submitting toother earthly authorities in
that way and letting them ruleover you and dominate you.
So I know this is a littleheady or sort of educational,
but here's the big takeaway isthis phrase Melchut Shamaim
carried an implication thatloyalty alone belongs to Yahweh.

(17:09):
Right, yahweh alone is king, soyou're to give him your full
allegiance and loyalty andyou're to give it to nobody else
, no other lowercase g God andno other human being.
But it also carried a politicalimplication.
By refusing to do that, itmeant you were refusing to bend
your knee to like other peoplewho claim to be able to do that

(17:33):
right.
So, for instance, this drovethe Maccabean revolt.
Where we get the Hanukkah.
You had this Greek king,antiochus IV, who came in like
conquered Israel and wasdemanding that they, like
sacrifice pigs on the altar inthe temple, and the Maccabean

(17:55):
revolt started because theyrefused to do that.
Like we will not bend to you orto any other God, we're not
gonna do that.
Our allegiance and loyalty is toYahweh alone, to our King, and
so anytime someone is sort ofimposing something else, that
would conflict, create conflictwith that loyalty or allegiance.
It creates rub, it createstension.

(18:18):
You guys see what I'm saying,yeah, and this entire thing sets
the backdrop for Jesus'sarrival and announcement that,
lo and behold, the kingdom ofGod Melchizedek is arriving in
and through me.
When Jesus says that, he'ssaying I deserve all your

(18:38):
loyalty and allegiance, theloyalty and allegiance that you
give to Yahweh.
I'm now demanding from you.
I'm the true king, and thatmeans all other kings.
This is where it gets political.
All other claims to kingshipare here to reject.
So you've got King Herodsitting on the throne, a faux

(19:00):
Jewish leader, and you've gotCaesar, who's claiming to be
king of the world, and Jesus isgoing.
Nope, nope, not them.
You're not to be submitting tothem, you're to submit to me.

Katie (19:12):
Does this make sense?
And that's the kingdom, that'sGod's kingdom.
Yes, yeah, it's so interestingbecause you know when you say
what do we mean by God's kingdom.
I think if I would have beenasked that question back in
maybe like high school orcollege, I probably would have
said like well, God's kingdom isheaven, Like it's a place we go
when we die, and that'scertainly part of it.

(19:33):
But I hear you saying it's somuch more than that.
It's all that came with God'sreign breaking in through Jesus
and it's all that comes withinGod's dome.

Mac (19:47):
Yes, and actually the biblical portrait of heaven is
not some other place we go toafter we die, like in a distant
world or something like that.
The biblical portrait of heavenis heaven fully enveloping
earth in such a way where allthat is here right now is
totally transformed by God'sloving presence, and God's rule

(20:09):
and God's reign is saturatingevery crack and crevice where
God's will is being perfectlydone.

Katie (20:16):
Yeah, so where we see little glimpses of that now,
like in Jesus and in the workthat God is doing in the world.
Now the new heavens and newearth will be the full
culmination of that.

Mac (20:27):
That's right.
And so here's the question IfGod's kingdom is arriving in
Jesus, okay, and Jesus believesthat God's kingdom looks like
his ministry In other words,he's not only revealing what God
is like, but what God's kingdomlooks like his ministry in
other words, he's not onlyrevealing what God is like, but
what God's kingdom looks likethen, as we partner with God to

(20:50):
join his kingdom come, we haveto get really clear on what that
kingdom looks like.
What does God's kingdom looklike?
Last episode, we talked abouthow God is like Jesus.
So we said what is God like?
Well, god is like Jesus.
Now we're going one stepfurther and going what does
God's kingdom look like?
Well, it actually looks likeJesus's ministry.

(21:11):
So now we have to create spaceto go.
So what is this kingdom looklike?
What is the kingdom that Jesuspronounced and described, and
what is the kingdom that Jesusembodied?

Josiah (21:24):
Yeah.
Yeah this is a really importantparadigm shift, but a difficult
one, I think we can name that.
The difficulty comes from likeit's sometimes easier to view
God's kingdom as somethingethereal that sits up in the
clouds and one day Jesus isgoing to return and make

(21:48):
everything right.
Yes, although that is partiallytrue, it's difficult to live
into that kingdom when you can'tsee it and touch it and you
don't have something so tangible.
Now, what I've learned over theyears is that it's much more
tangible than I think.

(22:09):
I was like taught to believethat God's kingdom really is
tangible and the way that Jesuscalls us to live our lives is
actually tangibly participatingin the work of his kingdom,
breaking into spaces in whichit's not right now.

Mac (22:25):
I love that.
Let's assume for a moment thatit does feel really ethereal and
abstract and generalized, maybe, like it would have, for I
don't know a first century Jewand imagine Jesus showing up and
saying guess what?
I'm gonna give you a foretasteof the kingdom right now.
I'm gonna show you what God'skingdom looks like through my

(22:47):
life, my teachings and myministry.
And yes, one day in the futureit will be fully completed.
But you get a tangible taste ofit right now.
If we were to read the gospelsthrough that lens going, jesus
is revealing to us what God'srule and reign looks like.
What kind of things would wesay?

(23:07):
What kind of conclusions wouldwe draw?
How would we describe God'skingdom?
Does that make sense?

Katie (23:13):
Yeah, I love that you mentioned you referenced the
verse Mark 1, 15, where Jesussaid the time has come, the
kingdom of God is at hand,repent and believe the good news
.
So again, it just shows thatJesus is not only announcing the
kingdom, he is the kingdom he'slike.
If you want to look at thekingdom, look at me.
And one of the passages thatcomes to mind for me is Luke 4,

(23:33):
where Jesus says the Spirit ofthe Lord is on me.
He has anointed me to proclaimgood news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaimfreedom for the prisoners and
recovery of sight for the blind,to set the oppressed free, to
proclaim the year of the Lord'sfavor.
So if we want to ask thequestion, what is God's kingdom
about?
And we say well, his kingdom isabout Jesus's ministry.

(23:56):
I think that's where we start.
Like, what does he say?
He's about right this was oneof the key passages where he's
announcing here's what I came todo Heal the sick, feed the poor
, set the captives free.
So he announces this and thenhe actually does these things as
he continues on in his ministry.
Through his healing, hedemonstrates that he cares for
those who are vulnerable.

(24:16):
Through feeding the poor.
He shows that he cares abouteconomic matters by feeding
captives.
He confronts evil powers andsystems that are oppressing
people.
By associating with people ofall classes, all races, all
ethnicities, he shows us this iswhat God's kingdom looks like,
and so I think you're right.
I think if we look closely,we'll see that Jesus embodies an

(24:39):
entirely different way of beingin the world and of relating to
, like the powers and structuresthat exist.
I see all over the gospelswhere he takes like social
hierarchies and flips themupside down.
He challenges institutions andstructures and power dynamics in
a way that I think would havebeen really disorienting to

(24:59):
those living around him at thetime, and I do think this
demonstrates for us what God'skingdom is about, right?
So if we're asking the question, what does God's kingdom look
like?
Well, let's just look at whatJesus did, what he said, how he
related to people as individuals, but also people sort of as a
collective, and theinstitutional structures around

(25:19):
him.

Mac (25:20):
Yeah, let me take a stab at summarizing what I heard you
say, as our listeners areleaning in and perhaps hearing
this for the first time, ormaybe this is new to them.
I hear you saying that thekingdom of God was the
centerpiece of Jesus's ministry,and all commentators that I can
tell agree on that.
That, like if you had to boilJesus's teachings into one

(25:43):
statement, the thesis.
What was Jesus's thesis?
It's what you quoted from Markthe kingdom of God is here,
repent and believe the good newsright, and Jesus is the kingdom
blueprint.
So what did Jesus teach andwhat did he embody?
That gives us indicators ofwhat God's kingdom looks like.
We'll start where Jesus startsHis inaugural speech.

(26:04):
I'm kicking off my ministry.
Was that Luke 4 passage right?
And then Jesus goes on toembody the very thing he just
got done, proclaiming for therest of his life.

Katie (26:14):
Yeah, unlike a political stunt speech where they make a
bunch of promises and then don'tdo it.
This is like he actually doesthe things he says he's going to
do.

Mac (26:21):
And so what does God's kingdom look like when it
arrives?
Well, it's care for thevulnerable, right, healing the
sick.
It's economic justice, feedingthe poor.
It's overthrowing evil powersand systems, fighting oppression
and exploitation.
That's what it means to freethe captives.

(26:47):
Right, and you alluded to this,but maybe it'd be fun to drill
down a little bit, because Inamed earlier that all of these
moves, like we have tounderstand God's kingdom arrival
, that it has politicalimplications, and I want to
maybe help our listeners seethat these aren't just like
spiritual things.
The way some people see Jesusis just like a spiritual teacher
.
Every one of these things thatJesus is teaching and embodying
had radical politicalimplications in his day and age

(27:10):
that actually got him in trouble.
Jesus didn't get crucifiedbecause he was just a good
teacher and had some nicethoughts.
He got crucified because he waspolitically disruptive to both
Rome and to the Jewish religiousestablishment.
So let me just give you oh, youwere going to say something.

Katie (27:29):
I was going to say are you saying that the Gospels
aren't just like little cutephrases that I'm supposed to
write on a postcard and carryaround for my personal
encouragement throughout the day?

Mac (27:38):
Oh, you're going to get me off on a tangent.
Can I give you an example?
Yes, jesus announces that thekingdom of God in Luke 4
involves feeding the poor, andthen in the gospels we actually
see him doing that right.
Well, one example is when hefeeds the 5,000.

(27:59):
There's another instance wherehe feeds the crowd involving
4,000 people.
And it's not just a cool storyof Jesus taking a little kid's
lunch sack and multiplyingloaves and fishes to reveal
God's abundance.
It is that, but it's also morethan that, and we need to be
able to see this in light of thefirst century context.

(28:21):
Food scarcity and inequitabledistribution was widespread in
the Roman empire.
This is the social context Jesusis living in, as you have the
top 5% of the population, theelites have all of the material
wealth and possessions, and 95%of the population is living at

(28:43):
or below the poverty line, intotal destitution, barely
scraping by, barely able to eator to feed themselves.
And that happened throughmultiple centuries of
overtaxation, wrongly procuringpeople's land and exploiting
people such that they havenothing left but, in some cases,

(29:03):
actually have to sellthemselves into a slavehood or
indentured servanthood.
This is the context Jesus isdoing ministry in, where 95% of
people are living hand to mouth,fearful and wondering where
their next meal is coming from.
Okay, so when you put this incontext, that Jesus feeds a

(29:25):
multitude of people using only afew fish and a couple loaves of
bread, this goes beyond yes.
It's a revealing that, yes, godis a God of abundance and can
supply for your needs.
He can take the little you haveand multiply to have a kingdom
impact.
All of those lessons are true.
Multiply to have a kingdomimpact.

(29:47):
All of those lessons are true.
But it's also a deep exposureand critique of the economic
systems of exploitation that ledto the condition where people
are hungry in the first place.
Does that make sense.
He's not just revealingsomething about God.
He's also revealing somethingabout the systemic injustice
that leads to hunger in thefirst place.
Jesus is feeding people becausethey're hungry, and so it begs

(30:11):
the question why are peoplehungry?
Why are people living hand tomouth?
They would have known theanswer to that question.
It's their lived reality everyday, right, and Jesus is doing
something that then revealsGod's kingdom.
God's kingdom is one whereGod's abundant provision
provides for all, but it alsoinvolves sharing rather than

(30:33):
hoarding.
This little kid becomes thereference point in a way that
challenges the upper elitesclinging to the top 5%, clinging
to their stuff, in a way thatmakes other people go hungry.
This makes sense.

Josiah (30:49):
Yeah, no, that makes sense.

Mac (30:50):
Yeah, that's just one example, you guys.
There's lots of other exampleswhere we can see the connection,
the miracle or the action forwhat it is.
But we also have to go to thesecond step and go what did this
mean socially and what work didthat do?
And oftentimes it's disruptive.
So, for instance, who did Jesushang out with?

(31:13):
In the ancient Near Easternworld, much like many Eastern
cultures today, it was anhonor-shame system.
It's almost like a caste system, where people who had more
honor and shame associated withone another, but they would
never associate with someone ina class below them, right, and
that was all based on yourbackground and your education

(31:34):
and how much wealth you had, andso on and so forth.
And once you were in thosecategories, you're kind of
locked in.
Well, jesus shows up on thescene and he disrupts the entire
thing.
And how does he do that?
He hangs out with people at thebottom.
I mean, even at the verybeginning of the gospels, what
do you see Jesus doing?
He's born.
As I've said before, I think inour last episode, jesus is born

(31:56):
to a common peasant Jewishcouple at the bottom of society,
from a no-name town, and thefirst people to hear the good
news are the shepherds, who weresort of despicable, like again
bottom of the barrel.
And then this is who Jesusspends a lot of his time hanging
out with sinners and taxcollectors and prostitutes who

(32:17):
didn't just have like no honor,like, or you know, a low amount
of honor.
They had none.
And by associating with them,jesus is sort of like
subtracting from his own.
Okay, but it's also disruptive,because he's sending a message
to those who think that if theMessiah is going to come, they
should be hanging out with me.

Katie (32:37):

Mac (32:38):
Yeah, it's politically disruptive.
It's disrupting the way peoplesocialize and do life.
And again, katie, to your point.
It is revealing something,though, about the kingdom that
God's kingdom doesn't playaccording to this hierarchy.
It's for all people, right?

(33:00):
It's an all-inclusive kingdomthat doesn't make these types of
distinctions.

Katie (33:05):
Yeah, and I hear you saying that by operating in such
a counter-cultural way and notthat he was just doing so for
the sake of being disruptive,but he was embodying God's
kingdom but by doing so, hedisrupted not only secular power
structures but religious ones.

Mac (33:24):
Yes, yes.
When Jesus announces that thekingdom of God is at hand,
there's a political weight tothat announcement because he's
announcing that a new reign isbeing established and it
challenges Rome and thereligious elites, authority.
It challenges both Caesar andHerod.
When he says blessed are thepoor, blessed are those who

(33:48):
hunger for justice, he'selevating those who are being
oppressed and put down right,elevates the marginalized and he
critiques the socialhierarchies that are in play.
When Jesus does things likeforgive sins and then heals
people as proof that he has theauthority to forgive sins, man,

(34:09):
he's claiming divine prerogativein that moment in a way that
disrupts the so-called authoritythat the religious leaders have
, disrupts the so-calledauthority that the religious
leaders have right.
When he says, for instance,render to Caesar what is
Caesar's and God to what isGod's right, he's doing

(34:31):
something highly political inthat moment, because a coin in
that day and age had Caesar'simage on it, which was
idolatrous for a Jewish person.
So he's saying give Caesar hisidolatrous coin back, but you
render to God what is God's.
Whose image is on you, god'simage is on you, so give
yourself fully to God.
This is a lot of work, okay.

(34:53):
So this is I'm just gonna namethis.
This is a lot of work.
I'm not a political pundit.
I'm a pastor who does a lot oftheological reading.
I have spent a lot of timelooking at the life and
teachings of Jesus and thenwrestling with what implications
did this have in his culturalcontext?

(35:15):
Like it's a lifetime of work.
I'm not even.
I feel like I'm just gettingstarted.
My concern, though, is thatoftentimes we're not making
these.
His cultural context.
Like it's a lifetime of work.
I'm not even.
I feel like I'm just gettingstarted.
My concern, though, is thatoftentimes, we're not making
these.
We're not even looking forthese connections.
Yeah, we're not even noticinghow Jesus's life, teachings and
ministry are not only revealingsomething about God and God's
kingdom, but we're not noticinghow it's actually disrupting the
kingdoms of the world andremaking something more

(35:38):
beautiful.
And so how in the world are wesupposed to participate in God's
kingdom arriving and theupheaval that that's gonna
create if we don't even haveeyes to see it in the first
place?
You get what I'm saying.
We have to have eyes to see.
This is the work Jesus wasdoing in that moment.
If we're gonna join and dosimilar work today, Mm-hmm,

(35:58):
mm-hmm.

Katie (35:58):
This is the work Jesus was doing in that moment.
If we're going to join and dosimilar work today, yeah, this
was a real paradigm shift for me, probably shortly before I
started working here.
I think for much of my life Isaw the gospel really kind of
limited to what it means for myprivate individual life, my
private spiritual life, my walkwith God, my quiet time, all of
that and as I began to see ohGod's at work in the world and

(36:21):
his mission started all the wayback in Genesis 1, and it
continues.
It goes through all the OldTestament.
The New Testament continuestoday.
One of the verses that stuckout to me I ended up having it
tattooed on my arm is from 2Peter 1 where he says you're
participants in the divinenature, and that's what that

(36:41):
paradigm shift meant for me.
It was like this light bulbmoment of like oh, this is so
much more than me, and mypersonal kind of like struggles
with sin, and all of that.
Yes, yes, yes to all of that.
Why are you smiling?

Mac (36:54):
I'm thinking back to you getting that tattoo on your arm.
It's in Greek, you guys, katiedoesn't know Greek, so she asked
me to like, help select, likekind of pick the text, not like
the verse, but like.
Which portion of the verse tohave tattooed, which portion of
the verse to have tattooed?
And I sent it to her and I justrealized how much trust you
were putting me in that moment.

Katie (37:14):
Yeah, I didn't realize.
I didn't double check your workuntil I was sitting in the
chair.
I didn't mess with you.

Mac (37:23):
Yeah, you didn't.
Yeah, I think we, I think Iconfirmed it, maybe after the
fact.
Yeah, I think of that random,like random people who have,
like I don't know, like aChinese symbol tattooed on their
I don't know the back of theirneck or something, and then
you're like what does that mean?
And you're like courage.
And then someone else like thatdoesn't mean courage.

Katie (37:36):
You know what's funny too .
I don't know if I ever told youthis, but I literally just
printed out your email andhanded it to the guy and it's in
the font that the email was in.
He didn't even ask me is thisthe font you want?
I'm like that's the Googlewhatever default font.

Mac (37:49):
That must make you cringe, Josiah, as someone who's artsy
and you know what I mean youtook Times New Roman Greek and
put it on your forum.

Katie (37:58):
It was supposed to be like two inches long and it
ended up like seven or eightinches.

Josiah (38:02):
Well, maybe it's just ironic, and so then it's like
you did it on purpose.
You just kind of have to own it.
You know that it was like astock font.

Katie (38:10):
It's kind of just my MO.
It's kind of just how I operatethrough life.

Josiah (38:13):
Oh sure, just put it on there, move on.
Just put it on there and moveon.

Katie (38:15):
Yeah, yeah, sounds good, but anyways, that being said,
like this whole thing, this wasa big light bulb moment for me.
I mean I'm excited to flesh itout.

Mac (38:23):
I would submit that it was a big light bulb moment for the
disciples too.
I mean, I just got done kind ofgoing on a rant about how we
have to be able to see Jesus,what he was saying and doing and
revealing about God's kingdom,if we're gonna like be a
foretaste of God's kingdom andthat also includes seeing or
being aware of how it'sdisruptive to our present
environments Well, my goodness,it seems like when you read the

(38:47):
book of Acts this is a majortheme that the early church and
the apostles are actuallycontinuing the disruption that
Jesus started by revealing thekingdom of God in honestly, the
exact same ways that Jesusstarted by revealing the kingdom
of God in honestly, the exactsame ways that Jesus did.
One book that really helped mebring this to life was World
Upside Down by a scholar namedKevin Rowe, and then also we

(39:10):
preach through the book of Acts,and William James Jennings
helped me see this a lot.
But when you look at the bookof Acts, it's like the disciples
are just continuing to do andsay the same things.
Jesus is embodying the kingdomand it has a similar disrupting
effect.

Josiah (39:26):
Yeah, yeah, I think that seeing what the early disciples
did in response to Jesus sortof further solidifies what it
looks like for us.
So Jesus sort of furthersolidifies what it looks like
for us Because Jesus wasn't justdemonstrating something on his
own, he was doing so by startingsort of like a revolution of

(39:47):
other people doing it as well.
And I think that's important torecognize because I guess I
have had conversations withpeople when trying to share some
of these insights, like howinspiring it is to know that
participating in God's work hereand now actually makes a

(40:08):
difference.
It's not like we're notdividing sacred and secular here
.
We're actually like, hey,participating and following the
commands of Jesus is actuallyour participation in the kingdom
of God and it breaking in.
I remember having some of theseconversations and sometimes
putting Jesus up on thispedestal of like, hey, this is

(40:32):
how we're designed to live, howhe lived his life and how he
taught his disciples to live.
It can look like this loftygoal, like, well, we will never
be as perfect as Jesus and Jesusdid all these things.
That doesn't mean we're doingall of the exact same things.
Jesus did those things, but nowwe do something.
We do other things becausewe're not Jesus, and you know, I

(40:55):
think that my response to thatis well, let's just look at what
the early disciples did then.
Because Jesus, in multiplespaces, gave the disciples
authority to proclaim anddemonstrate the kingdom in the
exact same way he did.
In Luke, chapter 9, hecommissions the 12s to go, heal
the sick and proclaim thekingdom of God.

(41:16):
In Luke, chapter nine, hecommissions the 12s to go heal
the sick and proclaim thekingdom of God.
John, chapter 14,.
Whoever believes in me will dothe works I've been doing, and
even greater ones.
So he's commissioning the earlydisciples that the people that
are following him, to go and dolikewise to do the same things
he is doing Right.
And then in the book of Acts hetalked about, there's countless

(41:38):
stories of the apostlesdemonstrating and proclaiming
the kingdom of God, and most ofwhich caused a lot of disruption
to the powers around them.
So the very things Jesus wasdoing to demonstrate the kingdom
the disciples are now doing.

Mac (41:52):
Yeah, can I fill some of that out from Acts?
Yeah, so just as Jesus caredfor the sick and healed people
and it got him in trouble, rightthe disciples also end up
caring for the marginalized andthe sick.
So, for instance, peter andJohn heal a lame man at the
temple gate.
Next thing you know, they'rebeing brought in before the
Sanhedrin Yep.

(42:15):
Remember, jesus freed andliberated people.
In Acts 16, paul casts out aspirit of divination from a
slave girl who's being exploited, and that liberation she was
being used for profit challengesthe economic system in that
location and people go nuts.
It creates all sorts ofupheaval in that environment.

(42:38):
You see the early churchsharing resources right, when
anybody had a need, peoplefreely sold some of their stuff
to make sure nobody was lackingright, that's in an environment
where hoarding is the norm.
Okay, they're associating withoutcasts Again.

(42:59):
Remember, a big theme in Actsis Peter learning that God's
kingdom is welcome to Gentilesas well.
The whole story of Cornelius istold twice just to double click
on that.
Well, man, breaking thisJew-Gentile divide was like a
bold move and created all sortsof friction wherever they went.
I was thinking back to a pointthat William James Jennings

(43:21):
helped me see, this is why yougot to read.
People are different from you.
He pointed out that there's amajor theme in Acts where
they're undoing the prisonsystem.
So, for instance, peter,remember, an angel sets Peter
free while the church is prayingfor him and then he knocks on
the door and they like shut thedoor in his face or whatever,
but it's like he's liberatedfrom prison.

(43:43):
And then same thing happenswith Paul and the Philippian
jailer.
Like they're singing songs andthey're praising, there's this
earthquake and they're set free.
There's also this undercurrentof like wrongful imprisonment
being undone by the kingdom ofGod.
So you guys see what I'm saying.
If you read through the book ofActs with this lens going, how

(44:05):
are they doing the things thatJesus did healing the sick,
freeing oppressed people and soon you'll see they're continuing
the very thing that Jesus didand in similar ways that Jesus
got in trouble or disruptedthings, they're doing the same
thing.

Josiah (44:21):
Right.

Mac (44:21):
Yeah.

Josiah (44:22):
This makes me think of Jesus or us.
Proclaiming good news to thepoor or to the oppressed can
sound like bad news to someonewho has exploited.
Yes.
Yes, it's like if I have owneda part of an earthly kingdom, or
let's just call it like a lowerG God, if I have invested in

(44:45):
part of that.
The announcement of the kingdomof God sounds like a threat to
that.
But to the oppressed and to thepoor and to the needy and to
people who have been downtroddenand outcast, the announcement
of the kingdom is good news.
So it makes me think of whenJesus challenged the people who

(45:09):
were listening to him and hesaid woe to you when everyone
speaks well of you.
I think that can get misapplied.
Sometimes it can give peopleexcuses to be jerks, which I've
heard it used before.
Oh yeah, for sure.

Katie (45:21):
Someone actually used that verse.

Josiah (45:22):
Oh yeah, like essentially, like well,
someone's always going to be madat me, you know.

Mac (45:26):
Yeah, you're not you're not speaking well of me, and that's
a good thing, becauseessentially like if people are
mad at me, it means I'm doingthe right thing.

Josiah (45:33):
But I think of that in this case, that if the way you
are participating in God'skingdom isn't disruptive to some
, you may be missing part of thepoint, because what I hear you
saying, mac and Katie, with someof this theological analysis,
is that the announcement of thekingdom is inherently

(45:55):
threatening to the kingdoms ofthis world.
Yes, because the king and thekingdoms of this world, no
matter how perfect they may tryto be, uh, are inherently
domineering and exploiting ofother people.

Mac (46:13):
Yes.

Josiah (46:13):
And the kingdom of heaven is a pronouncement in
which everybody is equal and noone gets to lord it over another
.

Mac (46:21):
Yes, and we shouldn't be surprised by that.
You know Paul talks about howwe shouldn't be ignorant of
Satan's schemes.
Right, we should have our eyesopen and in scripture, sin isn't
just wrongdoing, it's also aprincipality and power that's at
work in the world thatinfluences entire governments,
and you know what I mean.
Like worldly systems, thestructures and systems that

(46:43):
exist are not like immune toevil forces being at work within
them.
So, as followers of Jesus, thisshould be like.
When it comes to spiritualwarfare, I'm not so much
interested all the time in like,oh, is there a demon behind
that?
Bush, as much as like you, alsoneed to be able to see that
this is at work in structuralways through bigger entities

(47:05):
that influence all differentkinds of areas of life.

Josiah (47:08):
Yeah, when people are, when there's large groups of
people that are oppressed allover the world, there's probably
spiritual forces behind it, orwars taking place, yeah, or
divisions, or like.

Mac (47:21):
We've got to develop eyes to see, yes, how this takes
place, not just in liketemptation, individual
temptation, but also likeongoing conflicts between groups
of people.

Josiah (47:34):
Yeah, yeah.
And the kingdom of God is like,is contrary to that and
threatening to it.

Mac (47:41):
As is evidenced by tearing down the wall between Jew and
Greek slave, and free male andfemale, for all are one in
Christ Jesus.

Josiah (47:50):
I was going to say another thing in regards to how
the disciples in the earlychurch operated in the ways of
Jesus.
They saw themselves as citizensof heaven first and foremost.
The disciples in the earlychurch operated in the ways of
Jesus.
Um, they also like they.
They saw themselves as citizensof heaven, uh, first and
foremost, um, not, um, notnecessarily just the Israel, as
as Israelites.
And they had to untangle someof that.

(48:12):
If you remember, in Acts,chapter one, um, the disciples
ask Lord will you, at this time,restore the kingdom, the
kingdom to Israel?
And Jesus' response is to saywell, you don't know the day or
the hour, but you will be mywitnesses in Jerusalem and in
all of Judea and Samaria and tothe ends of the earth.

(48:32):
So Jesus is challenging thisnotion that Israel is going to
become like, this nationalisticpride that Israel is going to
rule.
He's saying no, my kingdom goesfar beyond just Israel.
Right, he challenged theirnationalistic loyalty by
broadening the scope of what thekingdom of God is and who it

(48:54):
all includes.
And they had to pledge theirallegiance to a king and kingdom
that includes every tribe,tongue and nation.
And, as you were saying before,mac, that was probably a very
big paradigm shift for them, andit also includes one for us too
.

Mac (49:11):
My goodness, yeah, I mean when we talk about Jesus
embodying the kingdom of God andthe kingdom's arrival.
It wasn't just disruptive andmind bending, for instance, for
the people at the top exploitingothers.
It also took a long time forthe disciples to capture the
beauty and the full implicationsof the kingdom of God that

(49:33):
they're going to participate in.
I mean, this is the book ofActs.
Jesus has died and risen again,and they're still asking the
wrong question.
They're still thinking oh,you're going to put yourself on
the throne and create an awesomeIsrael that rules over all the
other nations.
That's what's happening in Acts1.
And Jesus is like no, you stilldon't get it.

Josiah (49:57):
Well, it's okay.
It's interesting when I waslooking up these passages.
In Acts, there's a verse whereit says that after Jesus was up
here to them, after he wasraised from the dead, he spent
how long was it with them Was it40 days Explaining the kingdom
of God to them.
So he sat there with them forover a month Still explaining it

(50:21):
.
Explaining it, being like thisis what's going on and still,
after all of that, they're likegot it.
So when are you gonna restorethe kingdom of Israel?
They're so dense.

Mac (50:30):
And there's grace in that, because it means like we may
even still not fully understandthe weight and implications of
God's kingdom arriving.
Yeah, and God is gracious andcontinues to instruct us, and
that's no excuse for, like theobvious teachings of scripture,
to begin to wrap our mindsaround what God's kingdom looks

(50:51):
like so that we can faithfullyjoin it here and now.
So hear this the kingdom of Godis a kingdom without borders.
So hear this the kingdom of Godis a kingdom without borders,
without nationalistic borders.
Okay, the kingdom of God is notcentered on one nation with
borders and territory to defend.
The kingdom of God is about allpeople, all people.

(51:14):
It's a kingdom withoutgeographical borders and
territory to defend.
It's an all-inclusive kingdomcentered on King Jesus.
That is for every tribe, tongueand nation.
There's Christians in Uganda,there's Christians in Germany,
there's Christians in China,there's Christians in most
nations, and the kingdom of Godis available to every single

(51:37):
person, no matter what nationthat they belong to, and it
doesn't center on the nationthey live in.
As you said, josiah, scripturein the New Testament makes it
clear, for instance in 2Corinthians, that we are
Christ's ambassadors.
We belong first and foremost toChrist and, like an ambassador
is sent to a different countryto represent their nation.

(51:59):
We're ambassadors of thekingdom of God.
We're sent here and now torepresent God's kingdom rule.
Scripture says that, look,we're not to get entangled in
civilian affairs, but ratherwe're to stay connected to our
commanding officer.
That's 2 Timothy 2.4.
So think about this.
Imagine you're like acommanding.

(52:20):
You're sent by a commandingofficer to be in some other
territory.
The image Paul is giving islike you don't go to that other
country and then get so wound upin their affairs that you
forget your commanding officerback home.
And yet my concern, if I'mhonest as a pastor not a
political opponent, but as apastor leading people,

(52:42):
especially in the last 10 yearswith all that's happened it
seems like a lot of people aresuper entangled in civilian
affairs and I've actually forgottheir commanding officer and
the kingdom that they're calledto represent.

Katie (52:57):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It makes me think of like whenyou're a US ambassador, to say
Spain, you work at the embassyand you hold the American flag
up.
Yes, it's like you move toSpain and you take the American
flag down and you start actinglike someone who lives in Spain
and is from there.

Mac (53:10):
Yes, and I see that happening with Christians is
like, okay, you're supposed tobe an ambassador for Christ,
represent Jesus and be joiningGod's kingdom in the world.
And maybe you live in America,or maybe you live in Australia,
I don't know, but it's likeyou're so entangled and
entrenched in your Americanidentity that you've forgotten
that you're first and foremost aJesus follower.
And actually being a Jesusfollower will conflict with many

(53:34):
American values.
Yes, in the same way that beinga Jesus follower in ancient
Israel as a first discipleconflicted with what it meant to
be a good citizen in that dayand age.

Josiah (53:48):
And you could take it a step further to say that if your
identity as a Christ followerdoes not sit somewhat, in some
areas, at odds with the cultureor the political climate around
you, I think that might be anindicator that we've done some

(54:11):
watering down of what it lookslike to, first and foremost, be
an ambassador for the kingdom ofGod.

Mac (54:16):
Yeah, yeah.
And again kind of going back tothat quote I had last night
with that EQ book, I just thinkit's an indicator that we've
forgotten our status as Christambassadors, as exiles and
sojourners in a foreign land,that we have a commanding
officer.
When we get so reactionaryabout any political belief or

(54:39):
identity marker, we get allramped up because of that.
That's just an indicator thatour identity is in the wrong
place, that we're putting toomuch weight in American politics
versus our citizenship in thekingdom of God.

Josiah (54:56):
Yeah, and maybe we can pause.
Pause, if you're listeningtoday, maybe just be honest with
yourself.
Are you finding yourselffeeling reactive at some of the
statements?
Like does does that do some ofthese statements sound
threatening to your ownpolitical ideologies and you
start your?
Maybe you're starting to getnervous of like, okay, what is

(55:16):
Mac trying to imply here?
I think that would just be goodto do a little emotional
check-in.
If you're listening to this, Belike, am I feeling really tense
and reactive and nervous aboutwhat maybe Mac is going to say
about this?
I think that'd be a good littlecheck-in.

Mac (55:32):
Yeah, let's just untangle ourselves a little bit.
Let's stay tethered to Jesusand untangle ourselves from our
current political situation,because here's the reality and
I'm just going to submit this.
Try this on.
You don't have to agree with me, but you can try it on.

(55:52):
I want to submit that thekingdom of God is political.
What I mean by that is likeJesus's life, teachings and
ministry had politicalimplications in his day and age.
I think that's obvious.
This is what he got killed for.
Okay, he caused disruption.
But I also wanna submit thatJesus and the kingdom of God is
not partisan in terms of 2025American politics that make

(56:20):
sense, what I'm getting at.
It's political, but it's notpartisan in the sense that we
can take all that is Americanpolitics in 2025 and Jesus is
gonna fit neatly into thosecategories.
That's sort of imposingsomething over Jesus that is
gonna distort who Jesus is.
In other words, jesus and thekingdom of God is political, but

(56:47):
it's not going to be partisan,at least in a consistent way.
Another way to say this isJesus isn't a Republican or a
Democrat, he's not red or blueand he's not purple purple for
crying out loud, becausesometimes I encounter people who
see the problem with the right,like they kind of have some

(57:07):
distaste towards the right andthe left, and so they kind of
like put themselves on this likehigher playing field where
they're like, well, I'm notright or left, I can see both
sides, kind of a thing.
And great to the degree you cansort of, like, um, interact
with different people.
Wonderful, that's a greatcapacity to have.
But Jesus also wasn't like amoderate today.

(57:28):
Okay, um, he didn't just blendboth such that he became purple,
a perfect fusion of red andblue.
Um, jesus, quite frankly,actually took sides.
This is what got him in troublein his day and age, when
there's issues of justice andexploitation, you don't take the
oppressor and the oppressed andsit them down at a table and go

(57:49):
.
Well, let's look at both sidesof this.
Jesus took sides.
When Simon is snickeringbecause a woman is anointing his
feet with oil, he didn't go.
Hey, young woman, what do yousee from Simon's point of view?
Simon, what do you see?
He didn't mediate that way.
He sided with the womananointing his feet in a way that
exposed Simon's heart.

(58:10):
Yeah, get what I'm saying.
So this whole Jesus was alwaysmoderate and never took sides.
Also doesn't do justice to whatwe see happening in the gospels
.

Katie (58:24):
It makes me think of this time.
In college, a friend of minewas reading a book that asked
the question would Jesus be aDemocrat or a Republican?
And I was a staunch Republican,so I thought, well, of course
he'd be a Republican.
No, but I think just evenasking that question just makes
Jesus so small.
Yes, like what I hear yousaying is Jesus wasn't operating
on the spectrum of 2025American politics.

Mac (58:47):
And.

Katie (58:47):
I think that's exactly right.
He's so much bigger than that,then we try to put him on this
continuum.
Yeah, we put him on a box andtry to fit him into this
continuum.
Did he say and do things thathave implications for our modern
day politics?
Absolutely yes, but we can'tput them into a box and then try
to pin down exactly where hewould land.

Mac (59:05):
We can't start with a contemporary American politics
and then read those over Jesuswithout distorting Jesus.
And that's what's happening,you guys.
I know people on both sides ofthe political aisle, some who
are courageous Jesus followers,who are Democrats, who read

(59:28):
their democratic leftistpolicies over Jesus and turn
Jesus into a liberal.
I also know lots of Christianswho are conservatives and they
start with their conservativepolitics and they try to read
that over Jesus and they end upwith a conservative Jesus.
I'm trying to name that when itcomes to hermeneutics.
That's called eisegesis.
You're taking something fromyour environment and reading it
over Jesus in a way thatdistorts who Jesus is.

(59:51):
We have to start with Jesus inhis context and allow him to
correct our context.

Katie (59:58):
Yeah.

Mac (01:00:00):
And so this is why I'm just gonna be honest in his context
and allow him to correct ourcontext.
Yeah, yeah, and so this is whyI'm just gonna be honest.
I don't check political IDcards at the door.
We have people who lean moreright and lean more left in our
congregation and I think that'swonderful, like I think that's
great.
Okay, but you're not gonna findus consistently landing in one

(01:00:21):
category or the other, because Idon't think Jesus does.
I came across this quote fromBrian Zahn that really resonates
with how I pastor in thispolitical moment.
He says I absolutely refuse tobe an accomplice in trying to
turn the church into thereligious wing of a political
party Republican, democrat,whatever, I won't do it.

(01:00:45):
The church is an embassy of thekingdom of Christ, a kingdom
that is not from this world.

Katie (01:00:54):
Yeah, I hear you naming.
If I could summarize, I hearyou naming a challenge for Jesus
followers is really engagingour politics in a way that's
shaped by Jesus, rather thanletting our politics distort how
we understand Jesus.

Mac (01:01:08):
Yes.

Katie (01:01:09):
Rather than taking this political lens that we might
have and then reading that overJesus, allowing Jesus to speak
for himself.

Mac (01:01:19):
Yes, and let started by making a case yes to that.
And I think I'm sayingsomething in addition to that,
which is when we start withJesus.
My conviction is that Jesuswasn't apolitical.
He didn't just bury his head inthe sand.
The stuff he did had politicalimplications in his day and age,
and so that means that usfollowing Jesus today as a
community of people will alsonot be apolitical.

(01:01:42):
It will have politicalimplications, but I'm also
naming those don't neatly fitinto right, left or middle.
Jesus can't be confined tothose neat spaces without
distorting and contorting whoJesus is and what the kingdom of
God looks like.
And so, yes, the challenge verymuch is letting Jesus shape our

(01:02:04):
politics versus having ourpolitics distort and contort
Jesus to fit our preferences.
And I want to name that isgoing to be very difficult work.

Katie (01:02:17):
Yeah, right, yeah, I, yeah.
I mean I might say especiallyso for me.
I mean most people know this,but I worked in conservative
politics for nearly a decadebefore coming here.

Mac (01:02:28):
Then you got saved.

Katie (01:02:30):
Yeah, I'm just kidding Funny back, but it's not
surprising that I think politicswas a lens through which I saw
much of the world.
It was just the world I lived inand I don't think that's
necessarily a bad thing.
But where I would say it canbecome problematic is when
politics becomes a lens throughwhich we see Jesus.
I would just echo what you'resaying there.

(01:02:51):
If I could name one thing thatI think makes us really
susceptible to this which I wasdoing because it was part of my
job is just consuming a lot ofpolitical news coverage I would
argue that the more we'resteeped in political news and
commentary, the more susceptiblewe are to seeing Jesus through
that lens.
It's no secret that whateveryou focus your attention on is

(01:03:14):
going to have a shapinginfluence on your perspective,
your opinions, your convictions,and so, as Christians, if we
spend more time consumingpolitical news than we do
consuming the teachings of Jesus, what happens is we do, I think
, end up reading Jesus in a waythat sort of affirms our
political ideology, rather thanjust reading Jesus for what he's

(01:03:34):
saying, regardless of how itmight square with our political
beliefs.

Mac (01:03:37):
Can I name something on that?
Not only does it like distortJesus, but it actually, in some
instances, prompts us to rejectJesus's life and teachings.
Can I give an example of this?
Okay, so this was.
This was four or five years ago, I don't know when the timeline

(01:04:01):
is, but we were preachingthrough the book of James.
James was the brother of Jesusand he has a lot to say about
some of the stuff we've beentalking about.
In fact, he directly challengesmistreatment of the poor and
favoritism and things of thatsort.
So we preaching throughscripture and preaching through
this book, you can't just skipover parts that are

(01:04:21):
uncomfortable, you have topreach through it.
I ended up preaching on um, youknow, god's heart for the poor,
and the favoritism, and all thatkind of stuff.
Okay, and afterwards I hadother people.
I had someone come up to me andsay are we going woke as a
church?
Now, let's make sense of that.

(01:04:43):
Let's just unpack that for amoment.
What's happening there?
What's happening there?
What's happening is you havesomeone who, like you said, is
reading what I'm saying througha political filter that's been
shaped by the media and news orthe political tribe that they
belong to and the idea of caringfor the poor is now sort of

(01:05:08):
been hijacked from somethingJesus cares about to the left oh
, it's the left that cares forthe poor.
That's their agenda.
That's wokest thought right.
And so the moment you'restarting to preach on something
that the New Testament teachesor Jesus says, like we should
care for the poor, they're nowfiltering that through.
That belongs to the left.

(01:05:28):
That's a leftist agenda.
Now notice to the degree you'vedone that.
You now no longer are in syncwith what Jesus is actually
saying or doing.
You're essentially discreditingJesus because of your political
ideology.

Katie (01:05:45):
Right.

Mac (01:05:45):
And so I learned a lot from that moment.
To go hey, hey, hey, hey, timeout.
Caring for the poor doesn'tbelong to the left, that belongs
to Jesus.
And what's more and Katie,you've taught me so much about
this Oftentimes the primarymarkers that political parties,
like their platforms that theystand on, don't actually do the

(01:06:10):
work that they say they're goingto do.
So sometimes there is thissloppy sort of association that
the left cares for the poor andthe right doesn't.
But as I've had numerousconversations with you on the
actual policy level, which isridiculously complicated, you've
pointed out to me and shown mefrom a policy standpoint how
flimsy that correlation is, thatin fact there's tons of people
on the right who care for thepoor.
The left doesn't get to claimthat as their own, and some of

(01:06:33):
the policies on the left thatpurportedly care for the poor
actually do a really crummy jobof doing it.
Know what I mean.
It's more complicated andnuanced than anybody wants to
think it is.

Katie (01:06:44):
It's really complicated and very nuanced and we could
spend a lot of time here.
I mean, I could probablymonologue for a couple hours,
but I won't do that.
Yeah, it also makes me think ofso, mac, you and I co-lead our
racial peacemaking kingdomcommunity and I had someone
maybe more than one person beconfused about how I could be

(01:07:08):
politically conservative andthen lead that group, like isn't
that a liberal issue?
And it's kind of the sameresponse, like no, it's a
kingdom issue.
And do the political partieshave something to say about this
?
Sure, absolutely.
There's all sorts of debatesflying around and different
solutions that are put on thetable, but Jesus had something
to say too.

(01:07:30):
And if we're talking abouttaking Jesus seriously again, I
think the work is to go to thescriptures to see what Jesus is
saying and doing first.
Let him speak for himself first, rather than taking those
political beliefs and takingthis modern political
conversation and environment andreading that into the
scriptures.
And it can happen on the left,it can happen on the right.

(01:07:51):
You might hear you know youmentioned your example you might
hear a pastor talk aboutanything, the sanctity of life
and you think, oh see, I knowJesus was a Republican, and you
immediately import all theconnotations that that might
have in our context.
Or like immigration policies,racial reconciliation, sanctity
of marriage, I mean, take any ofthese issues and I think that's

(01:08:13):
a good example to go.
If you're hearing someone preachabout this, you're hearing a
teaching on it, and youimmediately dismiss them as
being put into a political box.
You might sort of besusceptible to this.
Now, that said, can pastors andpreachers and teachers have
political agendas?
Absolutely Right, like I'm notsaying we shouldn't be
discerning.
Yes, people can have politicalagendas, but if you're so quick

(01:08:34):
to dismiss because you're justputting it in that box that you
don't want to deal with it, youmight be really missing the
teaching and what they have tosay.

Mac (01:08:45):
Maybe I could just normalize the work here.
Some main pieces.
When it comes to integratingstudy of life, the life and
teachings of Jesus and what thekingdom of God looks like with
our present moment, we're sayingyou've got to become a student,
the life and teachings of Jesusand what the kingdom of God
looks like with our presentmoment.
Okay, we're saying you've gotto become a student.
This is what it means to be adisciple.
By the way, the word discipleliterally means student.

(01:09:06):
You've got to become a studentof Jesus, his life and his
teachings and his ministry, andunderstand him in his context,
like we've been talking about.
When it comes to, what doesthat look like as a community to
embody the way of Jesus in away that has political
implications?
That is a big question that Idon't have all the answers to.

(01:09:27):
We need to learn how to quibbleabout how this works out in our
present moment with a lot ofmaturity.
At the end of the day, like afederal election will come up
and you're going to have twocandidates that you can, two
more likely candidates that aregoing to, you know, assume
office and you're going to haveto likely vote.

(01:09:47):
We live in a context where weget to vote on those.
We have a say on those kinds ofthings, and part of doing this
work as a church is to go inlight of Jesus's life teachings
and what we know about thekingdom of God that Jesus
reveals and came to bring.
What do we do?
And we're going to probablyhave some lively discussion
about the pros and cons, becausethat's complicated when

(01:10:10):
different policies bubble up inour day and age and it's like
well, we need to be able to holdspace that involves
disagreement and dialogue andnuance, and be able to see
things from different vantagepoints to go.
What does a wise and matureJesus follower or community of
people have to say about thiskind of a thing and make enough

(01:10:30):
room for disagreement that wemay not see it the exact same
way?
You know what I mean Totally.

Josiah (01:10:35):
Yeah, this paradigm shift is.
To me it's very empoweringbecause let's just take an issue
such as caring for the poor.
You can't read the teachings ofJesus very long before you're
going to see that it's importantto him.
So when we take an issue that'sso near and dear to Jesus'

(01:10:56):
heart and structural to how hiskingdom functions in the world,
and we just outsource it tomodern American political
parties to try to figure it out,it's actually like a, it's sort

(01:11:17):
of like it's just waters downthe whole thing we're supposed
to be doing as Jesus followers.
We're outsourcing the work weshould be doing.
Yes.
So it's like should we careabout the political things?
Yes, and honestly, probablymore than I do, I tend to be
more apathetic about thesethings.
I'm glad you brought that upEspecially well.

(01:11:37):
When it comes to partisanAmerican politics, I'm very
checked out.
However, when I see it this way, it's like wow, maybe, instead
of seeing it as oh, thisthreatens.
Now I have to be challenged.
If I'm going to be a Republican,if I'm going to vote Republican
or Democrat, vote however youfeel like you need to, but don't

(01:12:04):
outsource the really importantmatters of the kingdom of God to
our American political system.
Amen, Don't do that.
There's challenge on both sidesof how each side is going to
handle an issue, because they'renot the kingdom of God, they're
not going to be motivated bythe same things you are.
So seeing it as caring for thepoor primarily is our

(01:12:24):
responsibility as a church, andto the degree that these
political measures are going tohelp and benefit in that great,
and to the degree that they arechallenging or hindering that
work, then we're going tochallenge that.
But the point is, don't see itas the like it's just waters

(01:12:46):
down our impact that we can havein our local communities as a
church and as a community.
That is the hands and feet ofJesus.
It just waters it down to saythe hands and feet of Jesus are
the Republican or DemocraticParty.

Katie (01:13:02):
Yeah, that's just like kind of gross Right and it begs
the question for me like whatare we giving our best energy to
?
Right, Like?

Mac (01:13:09):
Yeah.

Katie (01:13:11):
Rather than spending all this time sort of thinking and
arguing and listening to and allof that about caring for the
poor like just go do it.

Mac (01:13:18):
Right, let's go do it.
Right, let's go do it.
Yeah, and this is where I feellike I have a lot of clarity on
what the kingdom of looks like,that Jesus reveals, but if
you're listening to this, pleasehear me.
I have way less clarity on allthe implications of that, for
instance, on that issue caringfor the poor on a policy level.

(01:13:41):
That's just beyond my area ofexpertise, katie.
You know way more about thatthan I do, so I defer to those
who are more knowledgeable.
But here's what I'll say aboutour church community.
That I'm really proud of isthat as we've gotten clarity
about what Jesus's kingdom lookslike and we've described
several of those characteristicswe now have groups of people in

(01:14:05):
the form of kingdom communitiesthat are devoted to putting
those things on display, workingin those areas.
So you named the racialpeacemaking group.
That's not so much a politicalstatement in terms of American
politics as much as it is akingdom statement that the
kingdom of God belongs to everyrace and ethnicity and all

(01:14:27):
barriers or walls that areerected that prevent that.
We want to be part of tearingthose down and we have a group
of people that maybe some leanmore Democrat, some lean more
Republican, doesn't matter.
They're unified around thatwork and we're partnering with
bridge builders.
We've got a kingdom communitythat's really started in the
past six months or so, focusedon food scarcity and

(01:14:51):
homelessness.
Same thing.
It's not so much a politicalideology that's driving that
from American politics, right orleft.
It's a group of people sayingthis is a kingdom issue and in
that group I'm fairly certainthere's some people who lean
more left and more right on the,but they're doing the kingdom
work together in a unified way.

(01:15:12):
And I could keep going.
But you're right that one ofthe ways to sort of get out of
the entanglement and theentrenchment that actually
dilutes our work and our witnessis to simply focus on where
God's kingdom is arrivingthrough God's spirit right now
and joining that work togetherwith linked arms and hands.
And I see our church doing thatand I'm so stinking proud.

(01:15:36):
I have other pastors reach outto me and ask what we're doing
and I tell them this is how ourchurch is being unified, despite
all the political polarity anddivision that exists in this
cultural moment.

Katie (01:15:47):
Yeah, yeah, that's because, again, we don't put our
ultimate hope in politics,because politics doesn't change
hearts, right, the gospel iswhat changes hearts.
So we put our hope in Jesus andwe don't check out Right and
what Jesus is, he says and doeshas a significant implications.
Maybe a stab at summarizingyeah, that's a good word.

(01:16:09):
Praxis podcast.

Mac (01:16:11):
It's praxis time and it's good.
That's good.
Let's give okay.
If you're listening to this andyou're feeling triggered, just
take a deep breath.
Please Just take a deep breath.
It's okay.
If you don't agree witheverything we've said today,
that's okay.

(01:16:31):
It's a sign of maturity to beable to give space for other
people to have their ownconvictions.
You're responsible for what youbelieve, I'm responsible for
what I believe, and we growtogether as we learn how to
share dialogue space charitably.
Right, so let's just we're okay, but maybe let's give some

(01:16:52):
practices in light of this axiomthat God's kingdom looks like
Jesus's ministries, of thisaxiom that God's kingdom looks
like Jesus's ministries.

Josiah (01:16:59):
What do we do with this?
Yeah Well, practice one is kindof what we're doing here Just
become a student of how, ofJesus's politics.
What did?
How did Jesus structure hisministry?
How did he live his life?
Those things can bring a lot ofclarity and we dismiss those

(01:17:21):
very easily, or we do the otherproblem, which is to take our
political ideologies and readinto what Jesus did and we morph
him into something else and bewilling to let go of some of
those things.
Remind ourselves that the workof ushering in the kingdom of
God is not for our politicalparty in which we vote for.

(01:17:42):
That's not their job.
That's our job as a church tojoin God in his work, and it
starts by just being able tounderstand who is Jesus, what
did he do and what does thatlook like for us to follow him
in a way that actually lookslike Jesus' ministry.

Mac (01:17:58):
Become a student of Jesus, and here's where we can't do
that by ourselves.
You know I can only see what Ican see and sometimes I need
other people's observations tohelp me see things I otherwise
wouldn't.
And this is where reading isreally important.
Interacting with other peoplewho have, in some cases, given
their entire lives to studyingthis particular issue or that

(01:18:20):
issue can go a long way in termsof helping you see things in
new and fresh ways.
So I just wanted to name maybea couple of resources to go.
Okay, if I'm going to become astudent of Jesus and
specifically the politicalimplications of Jesus's life and
teachings, where would I start?
A couple books the Politics ofJesus by John Howard Yoder is

(01:18:42):
sort of like a baseline bookthat everybody has to read if
you're going to engage thisconversation.
Not saying you're going toagree with everything in it or
in any of these other books thatI'm recommending, but it's just
like welcome to theconversation.
This is sort of likeprerequisite required reading.
I really like the book KingdomEthics by Glenn Stassen.

(01:19:02):
He goes through the Sermon onthe Mount, jesus' primary group
of teachings and then wrestleswith those teachings in light of
present day issues, and I thinkit's really well done.
I'd highly recommend it.
You're gonna need to read someStanley Hauras books like
Resident Aliens, things likethat.
He's a big voice in thisconversation.

(01:19:22):
There's a book I read recentlycalled Just Politics by Ron
Snyder and I thought it wasreally well-balanced and well
done.
There's another book called thePolitics of Jesus by Obrey
Hendrix.
I'd recommend the first half ofthis book, not so much the
second half.
Obrey Hendricks I'd recommendthe first half of this book, not
so much the second half.
I feel like he kind of does agreat job articulating Jesus's

(01:19:44):
life and teachings and what theymeant in his political context
and the whole second half of thebook.
He basically comes out Democratand I was like I think I'd
maybe challenge some of the waysyou're, but that's just me.
And then finally, a lot ofpeople were seeing this phrase a
lot Christian nationalism,where almost like America is a
Christian nation and is theepicenter of God's kingdom
arriving rather than actually itbeing Jesus.

(01:20:05):
The Myth of a Christian Nationby Greg Boyd is a book I'd
highly recommend.
Christian nationalism is a formof idolatry.
It just is, because the kingdomof God doesn't center on any
one nation and actually it's afairly ignorant perspective.
If I'm being honest, I don'tmean that in a harsh way, but if
you just look at where themajority of Christians are
located right now, it's in thesouthern hemisphere.

(01:20:27):
God's kingdom seems to bebreaking in in the southern
hemisphere more than the UnitedStates right now.

Katie (01:20:34):
Yeah, that was a good book.
Well, you just gave people alot of homework, Mac.

Mac (01:20:39):
Sorry.

Katie (01:20:40):
No, those are good resources.
I've read a number of them.
Another practice I might namewould just be learning to
discuss this stuff with maturity.
Maybe, contrary to what youremotional intelligence book says
, I think we actually shouldgrow in our capacity to be able
to dialogue, and to dialoguewith people not only who think
like us, but who thinkdifferently from us, and

(01:21:01):
hopefully you have some gooddialogue partners who are also
committed to putting theirallegiance to Jesus first, so
you can grapple through thistogether and hopefully listening
to this podcast isn't the onlyplace where you'll kind of think
about this and work through it.
I would encourage you,especially if something is
stirring in you, to continue toengage with those around you and

(01:21:23):
to do so from a place ofmaturity where you're able to
listen curiously andcompassionately rather than
trying to like, argue orconvince people to agree with
you.

Mac (01:21:32):
There's an awesome organization that is equipping
churches to do this work.
It's called the Colossian Forum.
I know it through our work withthe leaders journey, but they
exist to create spaces forpeople to navigate conflict with
maturity, and they're doingawesome work around bringing
people of different politicalconvictions and teaching them

(01:21:53):
how to do that.
Well, I grabbed this statementfrom their website.
Christians face intensedisagreements, which often lead
to polarization and division,but it doesn't have to be that.
Well, I grabbed this statementfrom their website.
Christians face intensedisagreements, which often lead
to polarization and division,but it doesn't have to be this
way.
Conflict can be an opportunityto build deeper relationships
with God and each other.
There's a way to harness theenergy of conflict for love.
The Colossian Forum works withpeople to cultivate connections

(01:22:14):
across difference.
We teach leaders how toproactively identify and lean
into potential areas of conflict.
Leaders how to proactivelyidentify and lean into potential
areas of conflict and how tobetter care for people when
conflict arises.
And they actually have acurriculum for groups learning
how to engage in politicaldialogue when there's difference
.
So I just named that.

(01:22:35):
If you're listening to this andyou're like, hey, I am not
scared to talk with people whomaybe have different political
convictions than I do and wouldlove to create a space to do
that reach out and maybe we canget you connected to some of
that curriculum and you couldcreate like a little experiment
to go.
Hey, we want to grow in thisand learn how to do this with
more love and charity yeah, Ilove that you know.

(01:22:56):
And then a final practice Iwould name is just shift from
commenting to participating Kindof goes back to your point.
If you're, you know, watching10 hours of Fox News or CNN
every day and then developingopinions on federal policies or
whatever, knock it off.
Your time is way better spentgetting involved in a kingdom
community where you're actuallyembodying the kingdom of God

(01:23:17):
with your hands and feet and inand alongside other people.
So one of the ways to navigateall the political division and
polarity that exists is to putyour primary energy not in
tracking the news and formingopinions that aren't going to
change anything, but to actuallyuse your energy to embody God's

(01:23:39):
kingdom in a particular areaalongside others.
Join our racial peacemakingcommunity.
Serve at Bridge Builders.
Get involved in our anti-humantrafficking group, you know.
Learn how to serve the poorthrough our KC.
That way, put your energy intothe local embodiment of God's
kingdom, because what I'mnoticing is it actually brings

(01:23:59):
diverse groups of peopletogether and gives witness to
the beauty of God's kingdom.

Katie (01:24:04):
Yeah, yeah, that's so true.
Yeah, and I'm just a thoughtthat just occurred to me as
we're wrapping up this episode.
I wasn't planning to say this,but if you're listening and
there's something that youreally wanna like double click
on, or something that reallykind of stirs in you, or you're
just thinking like well, I wish,I wish I would say more about
that, like I'm not really, I'mstill not sure what this means
or that means.
We always encourage you to reachout send us an email, and it

(01:24:28):
may be something that we couldaddress in a future episode or a
blog post or find another wayto dig into Cause again.
As you said, Mac, there's somuch more than what we can cover
here and I think we did thebest we could with the limited
space we have, but I'd be reallycurious to see what this stirs
in people.

Mac (01:24:45):
Yeah, I had a guy come up to me two weeks ago and he said
hey, I would love if you wouldpreach a sermon on how to relate
to others, given all thepolitical stuff that's happening
.
And I said yeah, that's reallyhard to do from a sermon, but
maybe on our podcast.
We want you to shape thispodcast.
If you have a topic or aquestion that will very much

(01:25:06):
guide us in how we might puttogether a future, future
episodes, and if you're upsetabout something you heard today,
email Katie Actually.

Josiah (01:25:15):
Adam.

Katie (01:25:18):
Yeah, thanks for crosspointwicom.

Mac (01:25:21):
Thanks for joining us today .
We hope you were able totolerate today's episode.
Next time we're going to lookat another core conviction when
it comes to multiplyingdisciples who live on mission in
the world.

Katie (01:25:52):
And it's this trust leads and effort.
Follows a review and, if youhaven't already, be sure to
subscribe wherever you get yourpodcasts.

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