God's Mission Has a Church

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When was the last time you felt the pressure to "bring God" to a situation? What if God was already there, working long before you arrived? This episode challenges our fundamental assumptions about mission and discipleship by exploring the conviction that God's presence always precedes our participation.

We dive deep into what "missional" truly means – not as a trendy church growth strategy, but as a theological reality that reshapes how we engage with the world. From examining Jesus' own approach of only doing what he saw the Father doing, to unpacking common misunderstandings of missional theology, we reveal how this perspective shifts our posture from striving to discernment.

When God is the primary agent in mission, we're freed from the weight of producing spiritual results through our own efforts. All of life becomes sacred ground for spiritual formation – from workplace conversations to washing dishes. Church leadership transforms from performance to equipping, and our metrics shift from outcomes to faithfulness.

With suggestions for developing a divine detective mindset, attending to God's work in others through better questions, and prayer walking with new awareness, you'll discover how to spot God's activity all around you. This isn't just theological abstraction – it's an invitation to a lighter, more collaborative way of discipleship that centers God's movement rather than our own.

Episode Transcript

Josiah (00:02):
Welcome to Praxis, a podcast where we explore how to
practice and embody the way ofJesus in our everyday lives.
Thanks so much for taking thetime to listen.
We're in a newer series focusedon our mental models for
missional discipleship aframework for living out our
faith as disciples of Jesus ineveryday life.
Whether we're aware of it ornot, we all have mental models,

(00:24):
deep convictions and assumptionsthat shape how we see and take
action in the world.
Mental models are kind of likeprescription lenses While often
invisible when wearing them,they constantly shape the way we
think, feel and act.
So what were the mental modelsJesus lived by?
What convictions shaped howJesus saw people, responded to

(00:45):
needs, formed disciples andjoined God's mission in the
world?
That's what this series is allabout.
Each week, we're unpacking akey conviction that shaped
Jesus' way of life and explorehow to shape ours too, as we
seek to be a community ofdisciples living on mission in
the way of Jesus.
And today we're going to golook at the first core

(01:06):
conviction, and that's thisGod's presence always precedes
our participation.
So let's do it.

Mac (01:25):
Welcome everyone.
My name is Mac, I'm Katie.
And I'm Josiah, I thought of afun question to get us started
today.
I think you guys will find thisfun.
We'll see.
Well, yeah, we'll see.
You can rate my question at theend, like you know A plus A, c,
d.

Katie (01:43):
F Solely on the funness scale.

Mac (01:45):
Whatever Just use.
I don't know you can tell mewhat the scale is.
If you came with a disclaimer,what would it be?
Oh gosh, what?
I'll share mine while you'rethinking.
Okay, the backstory is I wasdoing a church internship out in

(02:09):
California and we I don'tremember what the exercise was
exactly, but it involvedeverybody having a piece of
paper with their name on it andeverybody else had to, like,
write down one word to describethem.

Katie (02:20):
Okay.

Mac (02:21):
And then there was this moment where you kind of took it
out and read the words peoplehad used to describe you.
There were three or four otherpeople involved in this exercise
besides myself, and all of themwrote the exact same word,
without talking to each otherwhich is really weird, the word
was intense.

Josiah (02:40):
That was my guess.

Mac (02:41):
And that was kind of like a like a good mirror moment, like
wow, everybody experiences meas really intense.
So yeah, I think I'd come withlike a warning label.
You know, that would be thedisclaimer Like engage at your
own risk.

Katie (02:56):
Intensity around the other, oh man.

Mac (02:58):
That's really funny.

Katie (03:01):
I feel like this is something that other people
should almost put on you.
It's hard to say what my owndisclaimer would be right,
because, like to you, you'rejust normal.

Josiah (03:11):
Yeah, that is true, it would be easier to label someone
else.

Katie (03:17):
Okay, like I could maybe create one for you, Josiah.

Josiah (03:19):
Feel free, because I don't even have a clue.

Katie (03:21):
Okay, and then I'll give you permission to create one for
me.

Mac (03:23):
Oh, this is going to be fun .
Okay, so what disclaimer wouldyou give for Josiah?

Katie (03:30):
I think it would just be like don't plan to like how
would I put this it would besomething like have plenty of
time for, like conversation, todig in on things, and don't
initiate conversation unlessyou're ready for it.

Josiah (03:45):
For like conversation to dig in on things, yeah and long
winded.
Don't initiate conversationunless you're ready for it.

Mac (03:49):
I would say for a disclaimer with Josiah is be
prepared for big reactions,because you often have reactions
.
Big isn't bad, I'm not, thatisn't a bad thing, but you, I
think you react to things andthen that leads to kind of to
your point, katie.
These really authenticconversations.

Katie (04:09):
Yeah, which I really appreciate about Josiah yeah,
that's a good word.

Mac (04:13):
I never feel like there's a lot of pretending or faking.
It's just like your reactions,especially with people you're
comfortable with.
I would assume to be one ofthose people, at least trending
in that direction.

Katie (04:30):
I feel like I get a lot of like raw reactions and that
leads to some really funconversations that are authentic
and deep.
Yeah, I would warn people thatthey can't get away with a lot
of pretense around you.
Yeah, huh.

Josiah (04:36):
I appreciate that.
Actually, it makes me feel good, we've got intensity pretense
allergic reaction to pretense.

Mac (04:47):
What would you, what disclaimer would you give for
Katie?

Josiah (04:53):
I'm working on it.

Mac (04:54):
Yeah, the disclaimer I would have given for you, it
would have been fine, not fine,and what I mean by that.
It's not a bad thing.
It's just that, like you areone of the most positive people
that I know and you tend to kindof cruise at this level of like
, always going and things arepretty good, and then there's

(05:15):
these, so you like I'm fine, andthen there's, but then there's
also these moments where it'slike, but are you?
And then we get underneath thelike, other stuff that is deep
and meaningful too.
You know what I mean.
Yeah, and that's a disclaimer,because I think if someone were
to like be around you, they'dexperience you as like this
incredibly positive, highcapacity person who's always on

(05:36):
the move and you're social,you're always up for fun, you're
always like yeah going and likeI think, if someone's really
going to be your friend, theythey're also going to go.
Hey wait, slow down for a sec.

Katie (05:46):
Yeah, let's talk about that.
Yeah, that's a good one.

Josiah (05:48):
Well, I have.
I do have one, but before thatI have to interact with that
because I'm married to a three,to an Enneagram three, and I
think I used to.
I used to sort of despise athree's ability to like put on a
face and get through the dayand like ignore all of the other

(06:08):
stuff going on in their life,and I think that can become
chronic where it is an issue.
However, I have also seen it asa real talent, like it's a
skill set to be able to say I'vegot all this other stuff going
on but I can focus on this taskand do it really well.
I have actually found it to belike a gift, if you're aware of
it.
It's self-regulation, yeah, theability to keep doing that and I

(06:31):
as I'm not an Enneagram three,have a very difficult time
overcoming internal emotionalstruggles or external
circumstances.
I have a hard time pushingthrough to motivate myself to be
productive.

Mac (06:46):
Keep calm and carry on.
No, but I appreciate theability to do that Like.

Josiah (06:51):
I so wish I could do that better.
So the disclaimer I was goingto say is if you're socializing
with Katie, be prepared for herto fall asleep at any moment.
Oh yeah, that's a good one.

Katie (07:04):
I did stay up until midnight at her house on New
Year's Eve.

Josiah (07:07):
That's true, wow.

Katie (07:08):
That is one for the books .
It had been a long time.

Mac (07:12):
Well, speaking of intensity , big authentic reactions and
keeping calm to carry on.
Let's get into the topic today.
Huh.

Katie (07:21):
Yeah, so we're in a newer series right now and we're
focused on mental models formissional discipleship A lot of
Ms there, but that's just to saywe're exploring some of our
core convictions or truths thatanchor us and guide us as we go
about being a community ofdisciples who live on mission in
the way of Jesus.

(07:41):
We believe that these were thecore convictions that guided
Jesus.
These were the mental modelsthat Jesus used when making and
multiplying disciples to joinGod's mission in the world.
And so today we're going tounpack the first key conviction
in missional discipleship, whichvery much centers on the word
missional, how we understandGod's mission in the world and

(08:02):
what it means for us toparticipate in it.
And, of course, we want tosubmit that this is all anchored
in how we see Jesus viewing andtaking action in the world.
So here it is.
Here's our first coreconviction for missional
discipleship, and it's thisGod's presence always precedes
our participation.
So, although that's a simpleand hopefully somewhat catchy

(08:23):
statement, I think there's a tonbaked into that.
So where should we start?

Mac (08:29):
Yeah, well, the idea that God's presence always precedes
our participation really hits atthe word that you just
mentioned, which is missional,the phrase missional theology,
and so I think we should startthere.
When I first encountered thatword missional, it was sort of a
buzzword.
A lot of people were using it.
I remember just being reallyconfused by what it meant.

(08:49):
It was sort of like that momentin the Princess Bride where
Vizzini, the short, bald guy whois like the self-proclaimed
genius, keeps using the wordinconceivable right, but he's
using it incorrectly becauseit's like anything that happens
sort of defies his expectations.
He says inconceivable, and thenInigo Montoya, he's like hey,

(09:14):
you keep using that word, but Idon't think it means what you
think it means, and it's sort oflike that.
When I first encountered theword missional, I just was like
it was being used in so manydifferent ways.
It felt like a really bigbuzzword and I was very confused
.
I was like what does this mean?
And we ended up as a staffbringing in someone who became a

(09:35):
dear friend of mine, michaelBender, from at that point.
He was working at the missionalnetwork and he was getting his
PhD in missional theology at thetime, but led our staff through
some conversations, and Iremember him saying something
that stood out to me.
I still think about this often.
He said if you want tounderstand the word missional,

(09:55):
you have to start with God, andthe entire conversation around
what missional actually means itbegins with our understanding
of God, and it's this convictionthat God is missional, like
it's part of God's character,it's part of God's essence.
God is missional and because ofthat, god is on mission in the

(10:15):
world.
That's actually where thephrase missio Dei, the mission
of God, comes from.
And, put simply, the mission ofGod is the right relationship
of all things, it's theflourishing of all things, it's
shalom.
We see it in Genesis 1 and 2.
What God creates is theoverflow of who God is and it's
the flourishing of all thatexists.
And then, of course, in Genesis3, it sort of gets disrupted

(10:39):
and that's when God's missiontakes on a redemptive or
restorative bent.
Takes on a redemptive orrestorative bent.
But what's really importantwhen it comes to this phrase,
missional theology or the ideaof missional, is that God is the
primary actor or agent inmission, like God.

(11:00):
When we think about creation,god is the one who created
everything.
When we think about redemption.
God is the primary actor inbringing about redemption and
restoration.
So, first and foremost, it'sthis deep conviction, like deep
down, that it's God's mission,not ours.
It doesn't belong to us, itbelongs to God.
And God is already at work.
God is already at work in everysingle moment, seeking to bring

(11:25):
about the completion of thatmission before we even arrive on
the scene.
So we don't bring God to aplace, we don't advance God's
mission apart from God or forGod.
Rather, god's presence precedesour participation.
God's already at work and ourjob is to then discern what it

(11:46):
is God is doing and where he'sinviting us to join in.
Does that make sense?
Now?
There's a lot more we could sayabout this.
I mean, there's a lot of likehistorical movement around how
missional theology came about.
There was this really biguptick in the 1950s when a guy
named Wilhelm Anderson presenteda paper at the International

(12:08):
Missionary Council in Germanyand then it kind of got a lot of
focus and attention in the1960s, sort of went dormant in
the 80s and got picked back upin the 90s.
And then there was a bookcalled the Missional Church that
catalyzed all the buzz language, but many people use the word.
Very few people are actuallyusing it correctly.

(12:29):
And then we've tried to reallybuild this out at our church.
So, for instance, in our DNAclass, we spend a lot of time
here just naming here's whatGod's mission is and here's how
we go about joining it, and partof that is just noticing how
this theme develops in scripture.
So if you've been through ourDNA class, you've probably heard

(12:50):
pieces of this before.
But, katie, to answer yourquestion, where should we start?
I thought maybe we should juststart by giving them like a high
level overview of God's missionin the scripture.
What do you think about that?

Katie (13:03):
Yeah, and you touched on this, but I think that's true.
I think I hear you saying theword missional implies that God
is primary actor.
God is primary agent.
He's kind of first mover, so tospeak.
And I could see someone hearingthat and going, okay, well,
like how do you know, is thisjust another like fad or trend?
Like how do we know that thisis a faithful way to view God

(13:24):
and God's activity?
And so I think starting withscripture is a great place to
start, because I think this ideaof of God being on mission to
restore all things um and beingthe primary mover in that is
something we see throughout thestory of scripture.
So it's anchored in, you know,anchored in this is.

Mac (13:44):
This is one of the ways I think we should read the Bible.
So, when we think about lenses,what lenses do we put on when
we're reading the scripture?
This is the process of what'scalled hermeneutics interpreting
and understanding scripture.
One of the lenses that I thinkhelps us get at a faithful
reading of scripture is to puton missional lenses to read the

(14:08):
entire narrative of scripturefrom start to finish, through
the lens of God's work and God'sactivity.

Katie (14:14):
Yeah, yeah, and you mentioned how God.
This is how God created theworld, like he created the world
in perfect order.
This word shalom implies theright relationship of all things
, the flourishing of all things.
I picture like the Garden ofEden, like the world was.
This perfect garden.
It was an Eden-like state, butit didn't take long for humans

(14:35):
to enter the picture, for themto choose sin, which led to
brokenness, entering the worldand kind of destroying that
perfect creation.
And on that point God's missiontakes on a redemptive angle
destroying that perfect creation.
And on that point God's missiontakes on a redemptive angle.
Like his perfect creation hasbeen marred and he goes on
mission to restore it back toits Eden-like state.
And I think the rest ofscripture kind of follows this
narrative right.
First he chooses the Israelitesto be his people and he

(14:57):
commissions them to be ablessing to the world, to join
his redemptive mission, to sharehis light, to share his
goodness with the foreignnations around them.
If you've read the OldTestament you know that they
sometimes do this, but oftenthey fail pretty miserably.
And so eventually in the NewTestament, god sends Jesus, god
takes on human form in Jesus andhe sort of embodies like the

(15:17):
climax of this redemptivemission.
Jesus lives a perfect life.
He defeats the powers of sinand death and he completes what
really began with the Israelitesbut they couldn't complete.
And then, throughout the rest ofthe New Testament, we see the
early church begin to join thisredemptive mission.
They get their direction andguidance from the apostles who

(15:38):
walked with Jesus and lived withJesus, and they are taught how
to live in the way of Jesus andin doing so, to join God in
redeeming and restoring andrenewing all that is not as it
should be.
And at the end of scripture wesee, like in Revelation we see,
god's mission will ultimatelyfind its completion when
creation is restored back tothat perfect state.
Like at the end of scripture,we see something that looks very

(16:00):
similar to the beginning ofscripture.
We see a recreated Eden in asense at least that's how I view
it where we all will get tolive as these redeemed, whole
people who are no longer scarredby death and brokenness and
suffering.
But our mission, I think, untilthat point is to join God in
bringing creation back to thatpoint.

Mac (16:20):
Yeah, and you used a word that is actually used throughout
scripture to highlight God'smission and activity, and that
is the word sent.
So the Christian understandingof God is a reciprocal
relationship of movement andsentness.
So God exists in reciprocalrelationship.

(16:41):
This is what is known as thesocial trinity.
Right, the Father loves the Sonand the Spirit.
The Son loves the father andspirit, the spirit loves the
father and son, right.
So there's this is what we meanby the Trinity, and that's the
social Trinity, and there's aperfect loving union that
defines that relationshipbetween the father, son and

(17:03):
spirit and that love ends upoverflowing, bubbling up and
overflowing.
That manifests outward inlove-filled sentness toward the
world.
I mean this is you go to afootball game or whatever, and
you're probably gonna see someChristian near the end zone
holding up a John 3, 16 signright, like for God to love the
world that he sent or gave hisone and only son.

(17:23):
There it is Like God is movingtowards the world that he sent
or gave his one and only son.
There it is Like God is movingtowards the world and love
filled, sentness and generosity.
And this is one way to read thescriptures the father sends his
son, right.
Jesus, the father and son, thensend the spirit.
Remember, jesus says to hisdisciples like he breathes on

(17:43):
them and says receive the HolySpirit.
And then the triune God sendsthe church into the world.
The Father, son and Holy Spiritsend us, the church, to be part
of the work in the world.
So when we talk about missionor the phrase missional, that's
sort of what scripture has tosay about it, and I think what
we're doing in this seriesthat's really important is to go

(18:05):
.
And these are glasses, theseare frameworks that Jesus had.
Jesus was wearing thesemissional lenses throughout his
life and ministry.
So try this on listeners, justthink about this.
Notice that when you read thegospels, jesus saw himself as
sent by the Father.
You read the gospels Jesus sawhimself as sent by the father.

(18:30):
In John 8, 42, he says I havenot come on my own.
God sent me.
In John 6, he says, for I'vecome down from heaven not to do
my will, but to do the will ofhim who sent me.
Remember, sent is connected toGod's mission.
So Jesus sees himself as sentby the father.
Not only that, but Jesusdoesn't do anything apart from
the Father or dependency on theHoly Spirit.

(18:50):
So, again, when we think aboutGod being the primary actor or
agent, jesus very much felt likehis role was to participate in
what God was doing.
In John 5, 19, he says verytruly I tell you, the son can do
nothing by himself.
He can only do what he sees hisfather doing, because whatever
the father does, the son doesalso.

(19:11):
And then in John 7, he says I'mnot here on my own authority,
but he who sent me is true, youdo not know him, but I know him
because I am from him and hesent me Right.
And then I already emphasizedthis.
But Jesus not only saw himselfsent by the father, but he

(19:33):
thought that the father and sonwould be sending the Holy Spirit
, and then the triune, god sendsthe church.
So in John 20, 21 and 22, jesusis with his disciples and he
says peace, be with you, as thefather has sent me, I'm sending
you.
And with that he breathed onthem and said receive the Holy
Spirit.
And then in Acts 1.8, he sayshey, disciples, you stay here in

(19:54):
Jerusalem until the Holy Spiritcomes on you, and then you will
be my witnesses here inJerusalem, in Judea and Samaria
and to the ends of the earth.
Do you guys see these themesLike?
What we're doing in this seriesis we're saying these are the
mental models Jesus had when itcame to multiplying and making
disciples.
And I want to name this seemsto be a really primary one that

(20:17):
he's on mission and he's joiningGod's mission in the world with
faithfulness and dependency onthe Holy Spirit, in a spirit
filled way right.
It seems to be a primary lensthat guided him and directed him
throughout his life andministry.

Katie (20:31):
Yet I like anchoring that concept of sentness in the idea
that we are joining the workthat God is already doing.
I think there could be atendency, depending on your
faith background, to hear whatyou're saying of like, okay,
well, I have to be sent, as thisidea that well, God has given
me my marching orders and now Ihave to go out and do big things
in the world for God.

(20:52):
But when we anchor that andsaying, no, God is already on
mission, he's already at work inthe world, then we're sent in a
way that joins what he'salready doing.

Mac (21:00):
You're describing perfectly something I had to undo after
grad school, because when I wasin grad school, we had to take a
class on evangelism.
It was just part of the corecurriculum and that was very
much the way it was presented tome, like here's the Great
Commission.
If you guys don't know, theGreat Commission it's all
authority on heaven and earthhas been given to me.

(21:21):
This is Jesus speaking to hisdisciples Go and make disciples
of all nations, teaching them,et cetera.
And the way it was presented tome in the class was very much.
Jesus gave us our marchingorders.
We're to make disciples andthat involves sharing our faith.
That's why this is anevangelism class.
Now we just need to take thatseriously, get out and do it and
, honestly, our assignmentsthroughout that class was to go

(21:42):
out and share our faith withpeople, whether they were ready
to receive it or not, and reportback what happened as we did.
That's not altogether bad.
I appreciated the desire to befaithful to Scripture, the
desire to see people come tofaith.
There's a lot I would affirmabout the class and the
heartbeat behind it.
Affirm about the class and theheartbeat behind it, but the

(22:04):
fundamental thing that you'renaming, katie, that I think I
had to undo and figure out a newway of relating and being is
that it very much felt like, oh,it's now on me to make
disciples, it's my job.
Everything that I need to dohas already been told to me and
it really just depends on megetting serious about it.

(22:27):
To me, and it really justdepends on me getting serious
about it, and a big part of myrelearning how to do evangelism
and pretty much every other partof church life goes back to
this principle, this coreconviction that God's presence
precedes my participation.
What does it look like to go?
No, god didn't give me marchingorders and then tell me to get
to work and do things for himand then come back and present
the results?
What does it look like to go?

(22:47):
No, no, no, god's alreadypresent in this other person's
life before I even open up mymouth and say anything.
God's presence precedes myparticipation.
And so now, all of a sudden,every single person I talk to,
the question shifts from what doI need to do to get them to
open up to the gospel orwhatever Notice, the agency

(23:09):
piece.
So you go.
What is it that God's alreadydoing in this person's life, and
where is God inviting me to bea part of it?
That's totally different,totally different.

Josiah (23:20):
You know, yeah, yeah, the knowledge of missional
theology and this, all the stuffwe're talking about has led us
as a church and the way we dothings, to have some core
convictions around this and sortof like multiple catchy phrases

(23:43):
that we use within language tosort of get at this.
And one is just that the churchdoesn't have a mission, but
rather God's mission has achurch.
So we don't go out and do thething for God.
Essentially, god's missionexisted before and it's our job
then as a church to join in thatmission.
But it's not the other wayaround.
We do things with God and notfor God, which we've already

(24:08):
gone over a bit.
Um, it starts with God.
God moves first.
Before we do, before we doanything, god is already active.
Um, in anything that we couldjoin, god is always present and
at work.
So there's never a moment whereGod is not active in the people
in our lives and the people'slives around us.
God acts before we arrive, sowe don't bring God with us when

(24:34):
we enter into a new situation,but God is already there and God
is the first mover.
We are essentially responders.
Mover, we are essentiallyresponders.
So, yeah, there's just a few ofthose convictions that have
sort of formed shared languagewe have Anytime we're in like a
discipleship context or like ina preaching context.

(24:56):
Even for you guys there's lotsof ways to say it.

Mac (25:01):
Yeah, let me give you an example of and here's
experiential evidence that thisis true.
Okay, so this was a few weeksago.
I preached on forgiveness.
It was a Sunday that I preached, and I preached on the topic of
forgiveness and later on thatafternoon, sunday afternoon, I
ran into someone who was at ourservice church service.

(25:22):
They were actually visitingthat day and this person told me
that she woke up in the middleof the night, in the middle of
the night, and very much feltGod bringing someone to mind who
she hadn't forgiven, and thatwas like for her, the entire
point of it.
She very much narrated it thatlike God woke me up and brought

(25:43):
this person that I'd failed togive forgive to mind, and then
she shows up to church as avisitor and the entire sermon
was about forgiveness and thechallenge to forgive and why and
how and so on.
Okay, so I'm listening to thatgoing.
Okay, that's a confirmation ofthis type.

(26:06):
But like God was already atwork in her before she ever
arrived at church, preparing herfor the work he was going to do
during the service, and now iscontinuing to work in her after
the service.
You get what I'm saying.
I'm not the primary actor,agent God was at work before,
during and after I was everinvolved.

Katie (26:28):
Right, it's not like she woke up and called you and said
hey, you should preach onforgiveness today because of
that thing.
Rather, God was orchestratingboth of it in his providence.

Mac (26:36):
It was like for me, clear evidence like God's ahead, god's
already doing something andinviting me to participate in it
.
And this actually I was.
You know, by the time youlisten to this it'll be a couple
of weeks later because we havesome space.
But we just got done with the4th of July and my
brother-in-law was in town andwe were talking about church

(26:56):
stuff and they go to a biggerchurch in the Twin Cities and I
really appreciate this about mybrother-in-law because he just
has a kind of an allergicreaction to performative church
where, like, the people on stageare performing, because it
feels like I don't know, alittle inauthentic or whatever.
And so we just had aconversation around that and he

(27:18):
was naming.
That's why I think later on inlife I'd really like to go to a
liturgical like a high liturgyservice, go back.
He grew up Catholic, maybe goback to Catholicism or something
that's not.
I think later on in life I'dreally like to go to a
liturgical like a high liturgyservice, go back.
He grew up Catholic, maybe goback to Catholicism or something
that's not as performative.
And I just kind of said, hey,man, what if we got out of that
pendulum swing altogether likeat Crosspoint.
We try to avoid theseperformative moments.

(27:40):
We're wanting to be authenticand real from the stage.
We're not showing up to performfor consumers.
But I also know a lot of peoplethat go to liturgical, like
higher liturgical environmentsand they're just kind of going
through the motions.
Their hearts aren't involved.
What if our primary way ofshowing up on the weekends at a
Sunday service wasn't performingor going through the motions,

(28:03):
but attending to what God isdoing in the moment?
That's very different.
That's very different thaneither me as someone on stage
trying to act on you in somepreconceived way you know what I
mean or kind of reverting backto like something we already
know how to do.
What I'm saying is maybe whatwe're trying to do as we gather

(28:25):
together is to attend to thegods who is alive and at work
among us.

Josiah (28:29):
Yeah, and also in that example you're using very much
discredits or, I guess, placesless of an emphasis on the place
of strategy within churchministry.
Like strategy is important butTo think that if I have the

(28:50):
correct liturgy, that's likeperfectly going to connect with
people, or if I am moreperformative and like making a
bigger showy thing, either onehas less emphasis than actually
joining God's work on endearingthe Sunday morning experience

(29:10):
experience.
So so, rather than the theemphasis being is it doesn't
need to be more liturgical ordoes it need to be more big and
performative?
It's like, well, that's lessimportant than than the way that
you engage in.

Mac (29:20):
Yeah.
So if you are listening to thisand you're part of our church
community, try this lens on whenyou show up on Sunday, rather
than thinking hey, did Josiah doa good job leading worship
today?
Were the songs what I liked?
Did the announcement soundpolished and did the person who
gave them look cool?
How was the sermon?
What would I rate that?

(29:41):
Whatever way you're evaluatingit, perhaps a different way to
show up on Sunday is God is atwork in this space today.
Am I attuned to that?
Am I paying attention to thatand am I joining it?
What is God wanting to do in mylife?
What is he doing in the life ofour community?
What is he doing in myinteractions with other people?
There's a God focus that drivesour participation, rather than a

(30:05):
consumer focus that drives ourconsumption.
So, you guys, mission startswith God.
If you're tracking, god is aGod of mission.
The mission, first and foremost, belongs to God, not to us.
We do get to play a role, andit's an important one, but in
order for us to do so, we firstneed to discern what it is God
is doing in us, through us andaround us, and then faithfully

(30:27):
join it.
And once you get this.
You'll notice, as I have, thatnot everyone who uses the word
missional it's still sort of abuzzword is using it correctly,
and I'll just tell you there'smore often than not, it's
probably being misused.
So let's jump into maybe somecommon ways that this word is
misunderstood or is beingmisused, and I'll just throw out

(30:48):
the first one.
So, if you're hearing us,missional is not a label for
churches that are externallyfocused.
I once watched a video onYouTube, you guys, that was
explaining what the wordmissional was.
This is when I was confused andlike hearing this word
everywhere.
So I was like, oh, youtube it,I'll figure out what it means.
And the entire video focused onchurches who, instead of just

(31:09):
focusing on themselves.
Entire video focused on churcheswho, instead of just focusing
on themselves, like focusoutward, on the community and
the world around them.
Okay, and I want to say beingexternally focused isn't bad.
Right, god is at workeverywhere.
Later on this afternoon we'llbe out in our community doing
moonlit movies and participating, and it is a healthy corrective

(31:29):
for churches that are justinwardly focused, focused on
themselves.
But the problem is you canshift to an external focus but
not have your view of God orGod's agency change.
You can shift toward beingexternally focused but still
have yourself as the primaryactor or agent of kingdom
advancement, as if I'm gonna togo, we're going to focus

(31:53):
externally and now I'm theprimary agent of acting
externally, rather than assumingGod is already doing something
out in the community.

Katie (32:01):
I don't even know what it is and I don't yet know how God
might be inviting me or us toparticipate in that faithfully
Does that make sense, yeah, yeah, like the idea that missional
is primarily just about lookingand doing things out in the
community could very easily turninto us creating our own
mission.
Yes, like we are on mission andwe're defining what that is, and

(32:22):
it certainly could be aquote-unquote like spiritual
mission or something that looksgood on some level, but that's
different than saying what isGod up to both inside and
outside our walls.

Josiah (32:32):
Yeah, and also discredits what God could be
doing inside the walls as well,because God's mission is still
active on Sunday morning just asmuch as it is out in the
community when we're joining it.

Mac (32:44):
Yeah, the fundamental problem, if we were to name it
in a word, is agency.
You're still confusing agency.
You're still assuming that youare the most important agent,
when you're not.
What else would you say?

Katie (32:55):
Yeah, another one, and this is somewhat related to what
you were just saying, mac.
But I would say missional isnot a label for churches that
are just simply effective atevangelism.
So you kind of touched on thisalready.
But just because a church mightbe good at evangelism doesn't
mean it's living missionally.
I think evangelism, or sharingthe gospel, is certainly part of
God's mission, but beingmissional is about joining God

(33:17):
in the renewal of all things,not just converting people.
Yes, if we are joining God'smission in the world, hopefully
we are sharing the good news andinviting people to follow Jesus
.
But I think a missional churchsees the gospel not only as a
message to be shared but as away of life to be embodied, and
that's in how we love ourneighbors, how we care for

(33:37):
creation, how we work forjustice in the world, how we
reflect God's character in everysphere of life.
So maybe one way to say it islike evangelism is one thread in
kind of a bigger story.

Mac (33:49):
Yeah, and this is a big one even for our own denomination.
I mean, if you walked in on theweekends you might not know
that we're part of adenomination, but we belong to
the Christian MissionaryAlliance, which is a tried and
true Great Commission theologydenomination.
Like we've always placed agreat emphasis on sharing our
faith and being faithful to theGreat Commission.
Now, to the credit of the CMA,I see the shift I was narrating

(34:14):
before they've made.
They're engaging the GreatCommission within a missional
framework, which is great.
But I could see how it would beconfusing for people who maybe
aren't familiar with what we'retalking about to think oh yeah,
it's my job to bring the GreatCommission to completion instead
of seeing it as God's going tobring it to completion and I get

(34:35):
to play a role or a part inthis little sliver of time in
this corner of the world, right?

Josiah (34:43):
Yeah, another one I would name which is similar.
Missional is not just a label todescribe churches that
emphasize missions, and it'simportant to recognize that,
because those of us who aren'tin the quote-unquote mission
field, as it would be stated,can see the work that's

(35:04):
happening there as differentthan what's happening here.
What's happening here and itassumes that God is God sort of
like isn't in those places untilwe send missionaries to go send
God there.
Yes, and that's a reallyimportant distinction, and I
would even name that if you talkto missionaries who are
passionate and who are living,living the quote unquote, like,

(35:27):
like a, like a missionary lifesomewhere, they would be the
first one if they're doing itwell, like, if you would talk to
them, they're going to be thefirst one to tell you that, no,
god's already at work here.
My job as a missionary is to,like, learn what they're doing,
figure out which ways God isalready at work and then try to
emphasize that and join in that.
So the word missional isreferring to God's state of

(35:50):
relating to the world, not justour attempts to save it.
In that way, I think that'sgreat.

Mac (35:55):
Another one I would say and this feels like an important
one is that missional is notanother label for church growth
or church effectiveness.
There's this word.
It's a big word,ecclesiocentrism, but it
basically captures this ideathat the church is always
focused on the church.

Katie (36:15):
Okay, Kind of navel gazing.

Mac (36:17):
Yeah, Well, yes, but also kind of like how would I say it?
The church is obsessed withbeing successful and strategic.
Every single day, you guys, Ireceive emails from different
groups or consultants saying,hey, here's 10 ways you can
improve this or that, or likeit's like-.

Katie (36:38):
Increase your numbers by next Sunday.
All of it, all of it, all of it, and so it's like by next
Sunday.

Mac (36:43):
Yeah, by next Sunday.
So we're just like obsessedwith strategy that's going to
make us successful, and one ofthe ways I think this missional
conversation has been co-optedis we've essentially reduced
missional to a strategy forchurch effectiveness, like this
is the trendy thing to do and,honestly, it just reflects our
narcissistic tendency to keepthe church at the center rather

(37:04):
than God, god's agency andmission.
It's just, once again, we'reco-opting something that's
bigger than us and making it allabout us, and so it seems to me
that, over time, missional hasbeen completely identified with
the church and, in a way thatsort of actually distracts us
from the main thing it's about,which is what is God doing in
the world?
It's not a trendy tool, it'snot a strategy to make the

(37:29):
church more awesome.
It's a conviction about who Godis and what God's doing in the
world and our role in it.

Katie (37:36):
Yeah, yeah, I love that.
Yeah, maybe a final one tooffer is that missional is not a
label for just reaching peoplewho have no interest in the
church.
I could see missional kind ofbeing used as a code word for
reaching those who are skepticalor de-churched.
But being missional isn't justabout targeting people who are
kind of on the margins of faith.
It's again aligning our wholelife with God's ongoing work in

(37:59):
the world.
So, as we said earlier, amissional posture means we
assume God is already at work ineveryone's life, and that's
regardless of whether they're inthe church or outside the
church or even hostile to thechurch.
Being missional isn't aboutcreating interest in the church.
It's about cultivating interestin whatever God is already
doing.

Mac (38:19):
Yeah, I like the way you said that it's not about
creating interest in the church,it's about fostering
faithfulness to God's mission.

Katie (38:27):
Mm-hmm.

Mac (38:29):
And that strikes me as intriguing.

Katie (38:32):
Yeah.

Mac (38:34):
Okay, this is where we're going to get turn a corner.
Let's turn a corner here andjust get a little bit practical,
because I think that thisconviction that it belongs to
God and that we get toparticipate in it, and that
God's always present and hispresence always precedes our
activity, has tons ofimplications and this opens up a
whole new way of living andbeing.

Josiah (38:56):
Yeah, yeah, oh, sorry yeah.

Mac (38:57):
So I'm just to set it up.
What are some implications ofmissional theology as it
pertains to our everyday lives?

Josiah (39:03):
Yeah Well, first one I would name is that all of life
is spiritual formation.
We often like to see the worldand church as this sort of
sacred and secular divide, likewhen I go into church, like
that's God's spot, and then I gointo the world and that's kind
of the world spot, and we reallylike to compartmentalize our

(39:26):
life into little areas that areGod's and which ones are ours
and which ones are like theenemies or the worlds.
And I think that thisconviction that God's presence
precedes our participation andthat he's always present and at
work tells us that there is nodivide, there is no place where
God is not currentlyinfiltrating and doing activity

(39:53):
to further his mission.
So if we're believing that,then every single part of our
life is full of possibility.
Daily life is full of kingdompossibility.
And then we learn to do the workof waking up to God's presence.
We're not just asking him toshow up on our behalf it's not

(40:16):
about getting God to do thingsfor us but we just become more
present to the thing God isalready doing.
And that can happen in dailylife, that can happen in, you
know, in any context.
I have one example as a worshipleader.
It can be tempting, especiallyin a more, you know, in like a

(40:38):
more charismatic context orsomething like that, where we're
doing worship in a certain wayis to assume that God's presence
is going to show up at somepoint during the service and
like we're trying to like coaxGod out of like some sort of I
don't know sleep of some sort.

Katie (40:58):
Hit the right note, the right song.
Yeah, if we get the right songwhen you hit that C sharp bam,
right and then.

Josiah (41:03):
but we?
It has some bad implicationswhen we start viewing it wrong.
One is that we start equatingGod's presence to our emotions
and our, like, physiologicalexperiences.

Mac (41:17):
I got tingles in my hands, yeah.

Josiah (41:20):
I felt goosebumps because I felt like those are
Holy.
Spirit goosebumps because, Ifeel God's presence Now.
Does that discredit?
No, maybe you are sensing God'spresence, but it's important.
And even in leading worshipthis has helped me to not get as
discouraged when things aren'tas a feely, and you know,

(41:40):
revival isn't breaking out.
Quote, unquote.
Right, it's just to know thatwe acknowledge God's presence
before we even start singing.
We know you're here and I tryto do that as often as I can
with our people.
When there's time to stop, hey,let's just stop and pray and
take a second, acknowledge thatthe Holy Spirit's here, and we
can do that before we ever sing.

(42:02):
Our job here is just to attendto.
Hey, God, what are you doing?
I'm not waiting for God'spresence to show up.
We can acknowledge it's herebefore we start and if we get to
feel it in our bodies, great,and sometimes we don't.

Mac (42:18):
I think we need to reclaim like a theology of the ordinary
because, as you're naming,josiah, I think many of us live
compartmentalized lives.
I mean, I'm a pastor and Istill can do that where it's
like.
Here are the spaces where I'mreally focused on Jesus and
connecting with Jesus.
Oh, and then I have to go aboutmy everyday life right, and I
just imagine someone who's maybeworking a normal job throughout

(42:38):
the week or you know thatpropensity is that much higher
to just sort of reduce thespiritual formation or the
spiritual part of my life toSunday mornings and maybe my
quiet times a few times a week,and this conviction that God's
presence always precedes ourparticipation and God is always
present at work allows us to bepresent to God all the time,

(43:04):
such that God is present at workin your workplace.
God is present at work whenyou're sitting around the table
with your kids at dinner orcleaning the kitchen or you know
what I mean or walking throughyour neighborhood or working out
at the gym.

Katie (43:15):
Cleaning toilets.

Mac (43:16):
Sure, Well, I mean some of the greatest voices that have
been influential.
Like Brother Lawrence wrote abook called Practicing the
Presence of God.
It's sort of this famous book.
He washed dishes and peeledpotatoes, but he made it his
goal to talk with God or bepresent to God all the time, and
his words still inspire peopleto live out this life in a

(43:37):
constant state of awareness ofGod's presence and love
Beautiful.

Katie (43:42):
Yeah, a couple of years ago I read a book, liturgy of
the Ordinary by Tish HarrisonWarren, and she makes that exact
point.
She talks about the mostmundane tasks.
I think she specifically bringsup cleaning toilets but like
brushing our teeth, changingdiaper, like whatever it is, and
how those can be, all be notonly can but really are
opportunities for God to meet us.
So I love that.

Mac (44:00):
Yeah, and I also just love the recognition that, as we
talked about with a Sundayservice, for example, that that
is a missional space.
This is a space that God's atwork and it's just as missional
as serving at the soup kitchenon Thursday night.
They're both places where Godis at work and we're being
invited to wake up to that andto join it.

Josiah (44:21):
Yeah, I feel very strongly and I will name that it
was.
That shift was very helpful forme as well.
It's easy to equate God'sactivity to something that I can
tangibly feel in a moment,especially doing something
that's really emotive, likesinging and in worship, but it
has a way of rebalancing thesacred-secular divide or the

(44:45):
amount of weight we actually putto it.
So I'm going to lower like I'mnot going to expect that God can
do more on Sunday morning thanhe could as I'm washing dishes
with my family.
What if I just put the sameemphasis that at any given
moment in my life God is present?
He is at work in my life and inthe lives around me and at any

(45:09):
given point that I want that Ichoose to be present to that.
It's full of possibility, whichit could be on Sunday morning
when we sing, and those arereally beautiful times that I
covet, all the experiences wecan have in those.
But I also know that it canalso happen just as powerfully
in any moment throughout the day.

Mac (45:29):
And so this might be provocative.
I've said it from the stage afew different times, but I would
actually try to insist that theprimary place of mission isn't
here on Sundays, but is actuallyin your everyday life.
Why?
Because that's where you'respending the most amount of time
.

(45:49):
People have done the math on it.
If you were to attend churchevery single Sunday without
missing a Sunday and, let's faceit, most of you miss a lot okay
, but if you were to never missa Sunday from the age 25 to 65,
you'd log about 3,000 hours inthe pew.
If you were to calculate thesame amount of time working a
full-time job for the length ofyour career 25 to 65, it's

(46:11):
93,000 hours.
That's a difference of 90,000hours.
So you ask the question where'sthe primary place of God's
mission and formation in yourlife?
Well, sunday can play a bigrole in that, but most of your
time is actually spent somewhereelse, and if that's not a place
where you're awake to andpresent to God's activity, well

(46:32):
that's going to really have alimiting impact on your
formation as a human being.

Katie (46:38):
Yeah, yeah, that's good.
So, yeah, we're talking aboutthe implications of missional
discipleship, right, and Josiah,what you're naming is that when
we believe, god is always onmission.
We see all of life as spiritualformation.
I think that's great.
That's been something that I'vebeen learning more so in my
later adult years as well, yoursas well, maybe another one I

(47:04):
would name is that thismissional mindset helps to put
our focus and our trust in theright place.
I think it can be really commonto put our trust in human
leaders to no surprise, whetherit's like leaders of our church,
leaders of our governments,whatever.
But living with this missionalmindset means that we
acknowledge God is the one who'sleading us.
So, again, I think our naturaldefault is to want to make
decisions by doing what we thinkis best, like we set a goal and

(47:27):
then we strategize the best wayto get there.
We ask the question okay, well,what do we have to do to get
where we want to go?
But I think living missionallymeans we actually ask a
different question first.
Living missionally means welearn to ask what we call, on
staff, god questions rather thanchurch questions, and here's

(47:48):
what I mean by that.
I'd say God questions arequestions that help us discern
God's activity, like what is Goddoing here?
What do we sense God is up to?
And we ask those questionsbefore we ask okay, well, what
do we want to do?
How do we get there?
What strategy do we want tocreate?
So missional theology kind ofre-centers our focus on God's
activity in the world and itreminds us that the mission

(48:10):
ultimately belongs to God, notto us, not to human leaders or
strategies.
It shifts our attention fromwhat we're doing to what God is
doing, and then inviting us tojoin in.

Mac (48:20):
I also want to add to what you're saying, Katie, that I
think it elevates the role ofaverage quote unquote ordinary
people.
Okay, Because in a traditional,maybe framework, when it comes
to church leadership or clergy,we have a very clergy centric
understanding of how we operate.
In other words, it's verytop-down leadership where the

(48:43):
leaders are presumed to be theexperts right, and within that,
I think, ordinary people,ordinary churchgoers, often
assume that they don't have thecapacities or the training to
discern what God might be doing.
But the irony of all of this is, if we build on the first thing
we were talking about, which islike, hey, God is present

(49:05):
everywhere and your primaryplace of being formed by him and
joining things with him is inyour everyday life, not
necessarily on Sunday morning,and God is at work outside the
walls of our church in ways wedon't yet know about but might
be invited to join in.
Well then, that means thataverage, ordinary people are
actually closer to the future ofthe church, like what God wants

(49:26):
the church to be doing, than Iam sitting in a podcast studio
on church property.
You know what I mean.
Yeah, Like to me, there's thisincredible elevation to go man.
The most significant pastors inour church aren't on staff.
They're working out in ourcommunity doing their everyday
jobs, and if you're able todiscern what it is that God's

(49:48):
doing in our community and wherehe's inviting you and others to
join in, well, that becomeslike well vision casting for the
rest of us to go.
Yes, let's get behind this youknow what I mean.

Josiah (50:00):
Yeah, and church leadership then takes the place
of equipping the saints, right,so, like that's not that takes
that flips the importance levelright.
There's, there's a healthyhumility that if you're on a
church staff or you're part ofchurch leadership in some way,
that my job is like I'mequipping why?

(50:20):
So that?
To like empower them that theyhave access to God all the time
and they have just as much stakein the game as we do.

Mac (50:33):
Yeah, and that leads to the third big implication You're
trending on it, josiah which isour way of doing church
completely has to shift right,and there are a number of shifts
that I think happen on theleadership side.
Again, from like performing toequipping, which is what you're
narrating.
Many pastors, I think, are justtrapped in this performative

(50:55):
model of leadership where everySunday it's their job to perform
for crowds who then rate howwell they did so.
They produce good sermons forpeople to consume, and this is
very different than creatingspaces on Sunday morning for
people to attend to what theSpirit of God is doing and then
creating spaces to equip peopleto say yes to it and join God's
work in the world.

(51:17):
I think that another way we needto shift doing churches for
leaders on the leadership sideis managing outcomes to simply
following God's leading.
I think many pastors feel thisincredible weight to be the one
casting vision to manageoutcomes and ensure success, and
leaders often assume controlthat they don't have over the

(51:38):
agenda and the steps to bring itto completion.
But Paul embodies a totallydifferent kind of leadership in
Acts, where he's like followingGod's spirit and the door shuts
over there and then he's overhere, like you don't see a guy
who has like the vision and allthe agenda and is sort of like
command and control.
There's a sense in which he'sjust trying to follow God's

(51:58):
leading and be faithful to it.

Katie (52:00):
He's not operating according to a five-year plan.

Mac (52:02):
Right, maybe even a five-minute plan.
And then, of course, there'ssome shifts that we've invited
all of you to make on the sortof membership regular attendee
side which is the big one isjust from consuming to
participating, right, ratherthan showing up as consumers,
showing up as people ready toparticipate and join what the
spirit of God is doing among us.
Yeah, yeah, our way of doingchurch needs to shift to match

(52:29):
this conviction that God'spresence precedes our
participation, and we're invitedto perceive what that is and
then join it.

Katie (52:38):
We might say that mission isn't like an optional add on
to church life.
It actually becomes like thewhole point of the church's
existence.

Josiah (52:45):
Yep, yeah, yeah, I, I think one more, one more thing
to say about the how the um sortof spiritual hierarchy shifts
and it like flips.
When we understand it this way,is, um, there's actually,
there's actually a distinctadvantage that someone who
doesn't work for a church orlike involved in that way has in

(53:08):
participating in God's activityin the world.
There's like a like and I knowyou guys are, you're alluding to
that already there's like adistinct advantage that you're
actually out there and there'sno access that someone who works
for a church or you know have.
You, as people have called youa professional Christian.

Mac (53:30):
Oh yeah, I mean.

Josiah (53:30):
Like there's no advantage we hold.
In fact, the advantage isreally in the person's court.
Who doesn't have to do thiskind of stuff.
Like you have to live dailylife with Jesus, accessing God's
presence just as much as wehave and being able to have eyes
to see and living in the worldin a way that sees the work that

(53:54):
God's doing around you.
I just think there's actuallyan advantage to that 100%.

Mac (54:00):
There are even conversational advantages.
As you talk to coworkers, myhunch is that they're more
likely to open up to you and bereal in ways that they won't be
with me.
People get weird when they findout I'm a pastor Do you guys
experience that too.

Katie (54:16):
Oh yeah, it was a shift when I went from working in just
secular, whatever world to allof a sudden like oh, where do
you work?
Oh, a church.

Josiah (54:25):
Oh, I try to wait as long as possible to interject
that into a conversation andthen pretty soon what Everyone
starts apologizing for swearing.

Mac (54:33):
Oh, I'm sorry, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's always this
notable shift when, like,they're acting themselves and
they find out what you do and itchanges dramatically.
Yeah.

Katie (54:42):
I guess I did experience a little bit of that working in
politics, but for differentreasons.
Yeah, probably I'm good athaving to hide what I actually
do.

Mac (54:49):
What other implications would you guys?

Josiah (54:51):
name.
Yeah, another one I would nameis that the measurements and the
metrics we need to focus on isfaithfulness, so faithfulness
becomes the measure of success.
We aren't responsible for theresults.
Our job is simply to befaithful and then we can entrust

(55:12):
those outcomes to God, whichwe've already been talking about
, and I think what this does isit takes the pressure off in a
really healthy way.
It can be really stressful forone being responsible for
something that's really outsideof our control.
So we believe that, like themission of God is is his

(55:32):
primarily and we'reparticipating in it, if we start
to try to control something ortake responsibility for the
results of something that reallyaren't ours, it adds a stress
and anxiety to what it lookslike to follow Jesus.
But on the other side is it canalso be really deceitful to
take credit for something thatwe can't control or produce on

(55:55):
our own, and I think that'sreally important.
I've referenced this maybebefore, but the passage in John
10 where, like the vine and thebranches passage, he's saying
like the, you know I am the vine, you are the branches, the

(56:15):
father's.
Like this vine dresser, likethe vineyard owner, and you know
he talks about if you bearfruit, then you know, prune you
and you'll bear more fruit.
If you don't, you'll be cut off, all these things.
But the point of all of this isthat I think that having this
lens caused me to reread thatpassage with a very important

(56:38):
distinction, and that's justasking who is responsible to
bear fruit in our lives.
In that passage, jesus isnaming.
The primary responsibility lieson the vinedresser, which is
the Father.
So we have one main job, whichis just to abide.
We abide in Him, andfaithfulness doesn't become a

(57:05):
measurement of how many thingswe get to do for God.
It's essentially just abidingand letting God bear fruit in
our lives, and we're not insteadof striving and then presenting
God with our ownaccomplishments.

Mac (57:18):
I think what you just narrated is really insightful,
that when our metrics shift tofaithfulness.
I heard you say two things.
One is we don't takeresponsibility for things we're
not responsible for, and withthat comes some relief of
anxiety.
You know, I think back to whenI did evangelism within the

(57:42):
Great Commission theologyframework, where I wasn't
appropriately attuned to hey,god's already present at work in
this person's life.
I felt so much responsibilityand anxiety around trying to get
people to do and say certainthings in order to fulfill what
I thought I was responsible for.

Katie (58:00):
And then, if they don't, you feel like a failure?

Mac (58:01):
Yes, and then on the flip side, I also heard you narrate
and then we can end up takingcredit for something that
doesn't belong to us.
Same thing If someone comes tofaith.
Oh, I saved that person.

Josiah (58:11):
No, you didn't.
It's like a notch in your beltRight.

Mac (58:15):
Despite the fact that in that same passage, jesus says
thing.
So I just think what you saidwas really insightful and I want
to highlight it that when we,when our metric is something
other than faithfulness, we tendto experience we take
responsibility for somethingthat we're not responsible for
and experience anxiety aroundthat, or we take credit for
successes that don't reallybelong to us, and both of those

(58:38):
are dysfunctional within amissional framework.

Katie (58:41):
Yeah, I jotted down something from a book that I
think resonates with what you'resaying.
It's a book by a pastor namedPete Hughes.
It's called All Things New and,honestly, the whole purpose of
the whole idea of the book isjust this like God is always on
mission to redeem and restore,and so he has a very similar
conversation to the conversationwe're having here, conversation

(59:02):
to the conversation we'rehaving here.
But one thing he said is thatthe pressure isn't on us, like
the result of this missionalidea is that the pressure isn't
on us to produce transformation,it's on us just to be present,
to be faithful and to beavailable for the Spirit's work.
And he also says that God'smission moves at the pace of
love and faithfulness.

Mac (59:20):
I like that.
Will you say that again?

Katie (59:22):
The pressure isn't on us to produce transformation and
it's on us to be present.
I like that.
Will you say that again?
God's mission moves at the paceof love and faithfulness, and
we want shortcuts, don't we?

Mac (59:42):
Yeah, the last implication, and this one's tough, I mean,
but it's true, we have a role toplay, but it's not the heroic
or central one.
I have shared this before.
I had a mentor.
I can't remember who it was,but they said something to me
that stuck with me.
They said hey, when you're doneleading at your church,

(01:00:03):
whenever that will happen to bethere'll be a few basic
responses.
Some people will be sad becauseyou invested in them and you
did life together.
It'll be sad that you're goingto be done.
Others will be happy Thankgoodness that guy's out of here.
He's way too intense.
Way too intense, I was justgoing to say.
But then the vast majority ofpeople will say who's next?

(01:00:27):
And they'll just kind of moveon.
Who's next?
And the whole idea is you'rereplaceable.
Yeah, you know what I meanYou're replaceable.
I received an email from ourdenomination yesterday and
here's what it said.
It said 100 years from now,nobody will even know that you
existed.
This is perhaps the greatestouch of human misery.

(01:00:48):
The desire to leave a legacy isa natural thing.
They're just something thatresides in the inner depth of
every person that can't handlethe idea of dying and being
forgotten.
We're not created to beforgotten and we know that.
And our depravity saddles thehorse and rides it into crazy
places.
And, like it's true, though Ican't remember my

(01:01:09):
great-great-great-grandfather'sname, I'm sure he was a really
big deal.
I mean, I bet he was thebiggest deal, but I don't
remember.
I couldn't tell you his nameright now, four or five
generations back.
And the scripture speaks to thisreality that like, hey, you're
here today and you're gonetomorrow.
And I just think there's somefreedom in that that I don't

(01:01:32):
have to be a big deal, I don'thave to be spectacular, I don't
have to live this narcissistic,egocentric life where I have a
big impact for the kingdom ofGod in order to feel like I
mattered or made a difference.
And I think that's actuallyright because it puts the order
of priority in proper place.
You know, I think of John theBaptist, who looked at Jesus and
Jesus is literally taking someof his disciples John's

(01:01:55):
disciples are now followingJesus and he says, hey, he must
increase, I must decrease.
I think that this missionaltheology rightly frames our role
and responsibility in a waythat takes the pressure off
having to live a big life andsimply live a life of love and
faithfulness that advances orparticipates in God's mission.

Katie (01:02:18):
Yeah, it frees us, it's freeing.

Mac (01:02:20):
Yeah, because most of the scandals you guys that we're
seeing come out, whether it's inpolitics or the church world,
it's really no different.
It's someone who couldn'thandle the size of their life
and had to be bigger and betterthan they actually were, create
narcissistic sort of patterns ofbehaving and relating that

(01:02:40):
ultimately exploited otherpeople and were abusive and
toxic.
And all of that goes away whenwe just get right-sized,
human-sized.
We have to live human-sizedlives and the human-sized life
is I have a role to play andmaybe certain things don't
happen if I'm not faithful to it, but it's not all hanging on me
and I'm not the primary actoron the stage.

(01:03:02):
That's Jesus.
And I'm not the primary actoron the stage, that's Jesus, and
my job is to point to him.

Josiah (01:03:06):
Yeah, and it's a challenge to everyone, to the
over-functioner and theunder-functioner yeah, you know
what I mean.
There's the person who you'regoing to be predisposed to
wanting to take more credit andwork harder and make it all
happen yourself.
Well, for that person, it's achallenge to say, no, you're

(01:03:27):
just one blip and that's okay.
Yeah, right.
To the person who says nothingmatters, it's also a challenge
for them to say, no, it doesmatter, it does matter it's
actually really exciting that weget to daily participate in the
mission of God Like that shouldawaken us to want to work hard,
but it's a challenge to peoplewho are prone to both.

Mac (01:03:48):
Yeah, you're not a big deal and yet you matter.
I mean, let's face it, we'remediocre pastors in a small town
of Oconomowoc, like okay, andGod's doing some stuff here that
God invites us to be a part of,and that's exciting yeah.

Josiah (01:04:05):
You know, yeah, it is.

Mac (01:04:07):
All right.
Well, we've talked a lot, let'sget into some practices.
I mean, obviously this is sortof an abstract.
Well, hold on, it's good.

Katie (01:04:13):
Practice podcast.

Mac (01:04:14):
There we go.

Katie (01:04:15):
Practice podcast, practice podcast.
It's enough time of hearing myobnoxious thoughts.

Mac (01:04:20):
It's time to get into some practices.
What in the world do you dowith this conviction?
If you have this convictionthat, yes, God's presence
precedes my participation, whatin the world do you do to
actually practice thisconviction in your everyday life
?

Josiah (01:04:36):
You know, I'm noticing a theme, the peas.
No.

Katie (01:04:40):
I was going to say how do we practice that God's presence
precedes our participation?

Josiah (01:04:44):
Oh man, I can't do that.
No, I'm noticing that.
Number one I always get thefirst practice and number two
it's kind of the same one everysingle time.

Katie (01:04:52):
Is it A journal?

Josiah (01:04:53):
It's just provoke awareness.
Yeah, it's just awareness.
It's just waking up to what'sgoing on and using this to try
to identify what's actuallygoing on.
So practice one keep a Godmoments journal Journal down the
ways that you sense God doingsomething.
It could be very small, itcould be very big, but the goal

(01:05:14):
is to just get present to whatGod is already doing in your
life.
You're not manufacturingsomething different, you're not
trying to add anything new,you're simply just stating okay,
if the conviction is that Godis going ahead of me and he's
doing everything and my job isjust to wake up to it, then I'm
going to try to just do the workand say, okay, god, I'm

(01:05:34):
assuming that's true, so I'mgoing to jot it down when I
notice it.
And it can start really simple.
It can get more complex if youwant it to, but essentially
you're just going to create somespace to reflect on what you
sense God is doing in your lifeand how you are participating,
or maybe where you didn'tparticipate, but just keeping a

(01:05:56):
journal to track those moments.

Katie (01:05:59):
And I want to highlight the word you said what you sense
God is doing right.
This is a practice we encouragepeople to do in our leadership
intensives and a lot of peopletend to respond by like I don't
know, how do I know if that'sGod or how do I know if that's
me?
And my encouragement is alwaysjust like well, just start.
You don't have to get itperfectly, but just kind of use
that.
We call it like divinedetective lenses and you don't

(01:06:22):
have to have it nailed, but ifyou think God might be doing
something, write it down.

Josiah (01:06:29):
This is just an increasing awareness.
I think that's a great one.
Yeah, I, I.
It's a part of my um, like adaily prayer I have written out
for myself is just to I just askGod to give me eyes, eyes to
see and ears to hear where you,what you are doing in and around
my life.
Love that, that's it.

Mac (01:06:44):
Yep, and we've got a tool on our website under resources,
called the Prayer of Examine,and that's essentially what it's
all about is just reviewingyour day in God's presence to
notice when you wereparticipating or missed an
opportunity, or whatever it is.
So lots of ways you can do this.
But, yeah, it's about becominga divine detective and we're
encouraging you to write thosemoments down.
Begin to collect them.

Katie (01:07:05):
Yeah, yeah.
Another one I would offer wouldbe ask questions to attend to
God's activity in the life ofsomeone you love or people you
love around you, and the focusof this practice would be, you
know, looking at people in ourlives that we care about and
getting present to the work thatGod is already doing there.
So if you look at the peopleyou're closest to your spouse,

(01:07:27):
your kids, your roommate, yourclose friends I'm describing a
shift from assuming to attending, instead of giving advice or
correcting or fixing kind ofobsessing over giving people
solutions of how to fix alltheir problems.
Try asking open and reflectivequestions, such what's been
stirring in you lately, what'sbeen weighing on you, where have

(01:07:50):
you felt most alive this week?
And then just listen, andthrough this process I think of
listening we are reminded thatGod is already present at work
in the life of everyone aroundus, not only just as a result of
our influence or what we mighthave to bring, but God's out
ahead of us in their lives, andjust asking questions and
listening can help us slow downand pay attention and then

(01:08:12):
discern where God is moving sothat we can join that work.

Mac (01:08:16):
Yeah, it's so fun to fix, though, isn't it To jump in with
our solutions?

Katie (01:08:21):
I mean, I have really good ideas If they just listen.
Yeah, if they just listen to mybrilliant idea.

Mac (01:08:27):
Their life would get better .
So quick, I mean goodness.

Josiah (01:08:30):
This is really transformative now that I'm
starting to parent teenagers andI don't always do perfect at it
, but kids are going throughstuff and like, how do I parent
them?
What if this is the lens we use?
It's just God is at work in myteenager and stirring stuff
inside them.

(01:08:50):
And what if my job as a parentis less to tell them what to do,
which, of course, is a part ofit, but what if it's way less
important than just simplyattending to that work?
Hey, I've noticed blank.
What do you think about that?
Like ask them, you know, andanyway, it's been very helpful.

Mac (01:09:09):
Yeah, it is a completely different way of being present
to the people around us.
Because I do think there's atleast for me there's this
default to fix, to jump in withmy ideas, unsolicited advice,
you know, and so on, and to gohey, maybe my role is just to
faithfully cooperate with whatGod's doing in their life and I
may not know what that is untilI get proximate to it changes

(01:09:29):
the way we relate.
So with these practices, you'llnotice, the first one is
focused on yourself.
I started God moments journal.
Become a divine detective.
Second one is then to focus onthe people in your life.
You know what has God doing intheir life.
And then the third one is tolook at the world around you.
What is God doing in yourneighborhood?
So the practice this week isjust to go on a prayer walk.
Less about you walking aroundyour neighborhood, sort of

(01:09:52):
claiming it for Jesus, butrather walking around your
neighborhood, simply listeningand paying attention.
Where is God already at work inthe life of the people who live
in your neighborhood?
What is God doing?
And it might start with justnoticing patterns.
Where are people congregating?
When are people engaged?
Who knows each other?
What are their stories?
Do I know who they are, butgoing through your neighborhood

(01:10:15):
with this idea that God isalready present and active and
at work.
And my job, instead of doingsomething to my neighbors, it's
to join what God is alreadydoing.
So, again, three key practices.
First one, on yourself what isGod doing in your life?
Second one how do you learn toget present to what he's doing

(01:10:36):
in your closest family andfriends?
And then, finally, this is astrategy also to get present in
what God's doing in yourneighborhood or broader Lake
Country area and beyond.
So, hey, one other thing Iwanted to mention, and this is a
prayer practice that everysingle person is encouraged to
do, and that is when you come tochurch, whether that's on

(01:10:57):
Sunday morning or for a ministryduring the week, I would
encourage you to use your drivetime to pray.
This is something we've beendoing as a staff for over a year
.
We've been asking our keyvolunteers who participate on
Sundays to do but to simply useyour car space to go.
God, I know you're gonna bepresent at work this morning.
Would you prepare my heart tobe attuned to you, to be open to

(01:11:20):
whatever you have for me andfor everybody else who will be
present.
In other words, use your cartime on the way to and from
church activities to just praythat we'd be available and
attentive to God and, on the wayhome, responsive to whatever
God wanted to do and for us torespond faithfully, make sense,
love it.
Thanks for joining us today.

(01:11:40):
We hope you enjoyed the episode.
Next time we're going to lookat a second core conviction when
it comes to multiplyingdisciples who live on mission in
the world, and it's this thatGod bends to meet us where we
are.

Katie (01:11:57):
We'll see you next time show and our church at
crosspointwicom.
If you have any questions,comments or have any suggestions
for future topics, feel free tosend us an email.
Also, if you enjoy the show,consider leaving a review and if
you haven't already, be sure tosubscribe.
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