Kingdom Aikido: Jesus' Way Toward Loving Enemies

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to Praxis, a podcast where we explore how to
practice and embody the way ofJesus in our everyday lives.
Thanks so much for taking thetime to listen.
Over the past few months, we'vebeen in a series on forgiveness
and we've covered a lot ofground.
So far, we've unpacked thecycle of enemy-making how to
name and lament the impact ofwrongdoing, how to forgive the

(00:24):
person who did the wrongdoing,how to forgive the person who
did the wrongdoing and what itlooks like to be appropriately
open to reconciliation.
We attempted to do all of thisin light of the life and
teachings of Jesus.
Before we close out this series,there's one more topic that is
closely related to forgiveness,reconciliation and peacemaking.
It's at the heart of thekingdom of God and Jesus's

(00:44):
teachings, and it's this it'senemy love.
How do we not only break out ofthe cycle of enemy making, but
actually love our enemies in theway of Jesus, and what does it
look like to relate to those whoare wronging us or mistreating
us?
So today we want to close outthis series by exploring what we
call kingdom Aikido.
Let's get into it.

Speaker 2 (01:17):
Welcome everyone.
My name is Katie.

Speaker 3 (01:19):
I'm Mac.
I'm Josiah.

Speaker 2 (01:21):
Okay so, Mac you, one week ago you were on a plane
back from Iceland, and beforethat you were in Ireland, so I
was hoping that maybe you couldjust tell us like one or two
really cool things that you sawor experienced on your vacation.

Speaker 1 (01:35):
Yeah, Well, they were two very different trips.
Ireland was to celebrate myparents' 50th wedding
anniversary and so we were withmy parents, and then I have
three sisters, so it was all ofus adult children plus spouses,
so 10 of us total and I mean itwas posh.
My parents spared no expense.

(01:56):
It was a huge celebration forthem and I think they were
really honored by that and wehad just a great time as a
family and it was fun.
I felt like we got to reallyexperience the culture that is
Ireland.
But I would say maybe one of mymost favorite memories that
week was at the Cliffs of Moher.

(02:19):
My dad has some limitedmobility from a brain tumor from
like 15 years ago, so there'slike lots of places you could
walk, but he kind of justpositioned himself at like this
one place and I ended up justkind of standing with him for
probably about I don't know halfan hour 40 minutes and it was

(02:40):
fun because I don't feel anyanxiety to fill the space with
my dad around like alwayssomeone's talking.
So we just kind of stood thereand it ended up being a
beautiful day, sun shining, andwe just kind of like took it in
and then every once in a whileone of us would say something
and then we just kind of go backto being together in this
special spot.
It was just fun.

(03:01):
It's one of my highlights.
Oh, man, from from Iceland.
It's hard to pick like just one, but we did some pretty cool
excursions.
Maybe one of the mostinteresting ones is there's two
tectonic plates that are sort ofseparating in Iceland and we
did some cold water snorkelingbetween those plates.

(03:23):
Yeah, so you put on, they giveyou a thermal like undersuit and
we did some cold watersnorkeling between those plates.
Whoa, yeah, so you put on, theygive you a thermal like
undersuit and then a dry suitover it, because it's like
33-degree water, oof, butthere's like a strong sort of
like I don't know cuff on yourhands and around your neck so
there's no water that's going toget in, and so just your face

(03:44):
is freezing and kind of yourfingers.
But my goodness, like you getinto this water and you're just
like looking down into the abyssand it is so cool, was it
creepy?

Speaker 3 (03:57):
at all.

Speaker 1 (03:58):
No, I didn't feel creeped out or scared.
In fact, they kind of likepumped it up like, hey, this is
going to be so uncomfortable,you're going to be freezing,
push through the pain.
It's worth it to see thesethings.
And maybe it was just becausewe both cold plunge or something
, but we got in and we're likewhat?

Speaker 2 (04:15):
This isn't bad.
You were snorkeling, so youwere towards the top of the
water.

Speaker 1 (04:18):
Yeah, you're just hovering on the top.
In fact, the dry suit was sobuoyant there's no way you could
even dive under the water.
You're just kind of floatingthere, you know.

Speaker 2 (04:28):
How cool.

Speaker 1 (04:29):
But it was.
It was really neat, it was afun experience.
So sounds really fun.
A couple of highlights.
Thanks for asking.

Speaker 2 (04:34):
Yeah, that's cool.

Speaker 3 (04:35):
Kind of crabby to be back, but yeah, I use the that
measurement for if I'm closeenough to someone as a friend.

Speaker 2 (04:46):
Buoyancy yeah like what?

Speaker 1 (04:48):
Where are we going next?
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (04:49):
yeah yeah.

Speaker 1 (04:50):
I'm not sure what the reference is.
This is great.

Speaker 3 (04:53):
Being able to sit in their presence without having to
fill it with talking.
Yes, I can talk as much asanybody, but I do enjoy the
feeling of security when you'rejust with someone and you don't
have to say anything at all.
I actually find it verypeaceful.

Speaker 1 (05:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (05:12):
Even if you're just riding in a car and you're with
a friend or someone or yourspouse or just someone, and
you're just there, you don'thave to say anything.

Speaker 1 (05:20):
Well, and not to make the turn right now necessarily,
but like some of the greatestspiritual writers throughout the
centuries have named theintimacy that is there with God,
like, oftentimes, we feelanxiety if we're not hearing
God's voice and so we just fillit with talking and talking and

(05:41):
words and words.
But what if God wants the samekind of intimacy as if you're
driving with your spouse on aroad trip and you're just
sitting there or you're at theCliffs of Moher?
Maybe it's not always supposedto be incessant sound, but it's
about being together in a waythat words can't capture.
That's cool.

(06:03):
You want to hear the mostannoying sound on the planet?

Speaker 2 (06:05):
No.

Speaker 1 (06:06):
I'm just kidding.
That's a dumb and dumberreference.
Oh okay, come on.

Speaker 2 (06:10):
It's been a long time since I've sat down and watched
them and number Uh, well,speaking of annoying sounds
buoyancy and buoyancy.

Speaker 1 (06:18):
Uh, today we're going to wrap up this series on
forgiveness and reconciliation.
Honestly, we probably couldhave ended it after our last
episode, but there's one finaltopic that I think is it just
absolutely needs to be touchedon, because it builds on what
we've been talking about so far,and it's how do we love our
enemies?

(06:38):
Right, we've talked about howto get out of the enemy making
cycle, but how do you actuallygo beyond just getting out of it
and actually proactively turnthe corner and begin loving your
enemies in the way of Jesus?
Because, quite frankly, youguys, this is at the center of
Jesus' teachings and the gospelLike.

(06:59):
This is how God relates to us.
This is how God relates to us.
Scripture says that whatmotivated God to forgive us and
reconcile us to himself wasenemy love.
While we were still enemies,god, out of love, sent Jesus to
die for us so that we could bereconciled to him.
Right, and so God is a God ofenemy love, and Jesus challenges

(07:22):
us to love our enemies in thesame way.
This is what Jesus is gettingat when he says be perfect just
as your heavenly father isperfect.
The whole context is that Godloves indiscriminately.
He loves and sends his reign tofall on the righteous and the
unrighteous.
And he's saying love the sameway, just as God loves

(07:43):
indiscriminately, you're to loveall those that you encounter,
not just your friends, not justthose who are kind to you, but
even those who mistreat you andharm you, your enemies.
I don't know who this quoteshould be attributed to.
Some say St John of the Cross,other people say Dorothy Day,
but it's just this.

(08:04):
I love God only as much as Ilove my worst enemy.
I love God only as much as Ilove my worst enemy.
At the very least, that'sprovocative.
Right Sky Jatani says the markof true devotion to God isn't

(08:27):
who we reject, but rather who weembrace.
It's not who we condemn to hell, but who we are committed to
heal.
And real faith in Christ isn'tdefined by an unquestioning
commitment to a position, but byunlimited compassion towards
all people, even to our enemies.
I mean, this is what DavidFrench critiques when he talks

(08:53):
about telephone poleChristianity.
A telephone pole is justvertical right, and so it's just
focusing on your relationshipwith God rather than the
significance of the cross, whichis not just a vertical pole,
but like extends horizontally.

Speaker 2 (09:11):
Interesting.

Speaker 1 (09:12):
So again, the question is how do we not only
break out of the cycle of enemymaking but actually love our
enemies in the way of Jesus?
And what does it look like,jesus?
And what does it look like andI'm sure all of us can think of
people who, in our relationshipwith them, there's maybe a
patterned way of wrongdoing ormistreatment and you have to
continue to be in their presence.

(09:33):
So what does it look like tolove those people?
You guys kind of with me?

Speaker 3 (09:37):
on this.

Speaker 1 (09:38):
Yeah, okay.
Are you just nodding justbecause you want to?
Not, if not, if you'refollowing, blink twice if you
were with you you know like thisis.
This gets me jazzed.

Speaker 2 (09:52):
Yeah, I'm excited for this conversation because I
think that loving your enemiesis something that's easy to talk
about but way harder toactually do, like we all know
the verses.
We can all talk about it in intheory, but when you're faced
with a situation where you'reactually required to extend
self-sacrificial love notrequired, but you have an
opportunity to it's it's hard,it's hard stuff.

Speaker 3 (10:15):
Yeah, yeah, it's uh.
When we have the picture of lovebeing just this, feeling like I
feel like I love my enemies, itgets really ethereal and
wishy-washy, and I feel like weneed, like, a specific way of
acting in order to know thatwe're loving our enemies, and we

(10:37):
need more options than the oneswe're given like inherently, as
humans Say more about that.
So when you're faced with athreat, you have a physiological
response in your body, and wecommonly use these terms fight
or flight, right.
So you're either going to fightback adrenaline's going to rush
or you're going to run away infear, and if we use those two as

(11:02):
the primary mode of operatingfor most people, when someone
has harmed you or someone iswronging you or someone is a
genuine threat to you, you canfeel like you want to love them,
but ultimately, we are going tobe co-opted by our biological
responses to try to protectourselves, and those are not
wrong.
We're not going to label thoseas any things sort of wrong.

(11:27):
We are naming, though, that, inorder to love in the way of
Jesus, we need a third way.
We need a, we need an alternateway of operating that goes
beyond our, our um physiologicalbiological response.
Yes, that goes beyond the sortof the reptilian brain that that
is wanting to fire in thosemoments and to say, no, I'm, I

(11:48):
can choose to do something else.
Uh, as an act of love.

Speaker 1 (11:54):
Yeah, and I think most people, when they're
encountered with a threat, orlet's just say they're
encountered with an enemy,someone who's mistreating them,
and that natural physiologicalfight or flight response comes,
it really comes down to whetherI can win or not.
If I can overpower my enemy, ifI can win, I'm more likely to

(12:16):
choose the fight response.
Right, I can get them to submitto my power, but if I look at
the other person I'm liketotally outmatched to my power.
But if I look at the otherperson I'm like totally
outmatched.
You know, then I'm more likelyto run away or to cower in
submission.

Speaker 3 (12:32):
You know what I mean.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I justthink that there is a, there has
to be an option, and I don'tthink that we have.
We're not often given the toolsto do that as Jesus followers.
You know, like even in I guessI would say even in outside of
the realm of, like, church andChristianity yes, we don't have

(12:53):
a lot of options, right, or likeyou're, either like, as you're
saying, I'm either like can winthis fight and I'm going to
fight, or I'm going to run away,and I'm really excited to hear
more about what it looks like toembody something else, like
just an alternate.

Speaker 1 (13:11):
I think you've got your finger on it, because I
feel that way.
I think there's what I callimaginative gridlock, where,
when we're encountering an enemy, we don't have an imagination
for something outside of a fightor flight, like overpower or
submit and cower, and so weeither battle against this

(13:34):
person or we bail out becausewe're overwhelmed right, or we
push back or we pull away and weneed a different way altogether
.
We're saying we need a thirdway, a different way than fight
or flight.

Speaker 2 (13:46):
Yeah.
And might I take what you weresaying just a step further and
say and if we're talking in thechurch context, I'm guessing
nine times out of 10, we'regoing to think, oh well, jesus
is the flight response, like hejust sort of takes it right.
That seems to be sometimes howwe orient, maybe if we don't
even realize that.
But you know, since I startedworking here a couple years ago,

(14:07):
mac, you've recommended, Ithink, some books and resources
and teachings that have helpedme start to think this way and
understand.
And it's true, when you look atthe life and teachings of Jesus,
you see that he doesn't resortto this fight or flight
dichotomy, but rather heconsistently embodies and
teaches us something different.
If you look at the stories ofJesus in the Bible, you see that

(14:30):
when he encounters tension, hedoesn't run away or passively
appease people, which is kind ofthat flight response you're
talking about.
But he also doesn't pick uparms to fight.
Rather, jesus resists in anonviolent way that paves the
way for peace and righteousnessand justice.
So today we want to unpackperhaps one of Jesus's most

(14:51):
challenging teachings, which isthis that of enemy love.
Rather than running away fromour enemies or hitting our
enemies.
Jesus teaches us to love ourenemies Enemy.
Love really is the center ofthe kingdom, and I think it's a
hallmark of what it means tofollow Jesus.

Speaker 1 (15:06):
And one of the labels that might be helpful if we go
fight is one label for anon-Jesus-like response, and
flight is the other.
The third way is non-violentresistance.
So, in other words, you justsaid maybe there's a common
association, that Jesus is justin his teachings, promoting a
passivity in the face of evil orwrongdoing.

(15:28):
And one thing I want to makeclear and I'll circle back to
this in a bit that is not at allsupported by Jesus's life or
teachings there is a resistance,but it's not a fight type of
resistance.
It's a nonviolent, cruciformform of resistance that actually
wields more power than pickingup arms, because it's the type

(15:53):
of power and resistance that cantransform.
So, yeah, I think this is goingto be a little bit of a
different podcast than some ofour other ones, where we just
kind of have an ongoing dialogue.
Let's make it as conversationalas possible.
But I actually just want towalk through a passage that I
feel like I've done a fairamount of work on and just kind

(16:17):
of talk about it as it provokesthings.
So it's Matthew 5, 38 through48.
So, in context, this is part ofthe Sermon on the Mount, which
is sort of the longest orlargest collection of Jesus's
teachings put into one place,and so it's three chapters of

(16:38):
the Sermon on the Mount Matthew5, 6, and 7.
And so this is from the firstsort of chunk of it, and it's
part of a section known as thesix antitheses.
So these are six blocks ofteachings where Jesus begins by
saying you've heard it said.
But I say to you, and with eachof these teachings, jesus is

(17:00):
not setting aside the law, butrather he's intensifying and
internalizing the law.
In fact the word but it couldbe better translated.
And I say to you that Jesus isnot contradicting the law.
Rather, this was commonrabbinic way of offering an
interpretation of the law.

(17:20):
So when he says, hey, you'veheard it said, but I say to you
he's not contradicting to it.
That was just a rabbi's way ofsaying I'm about to interpret
what this law means for you.
And the through line with eachone of these antitheses is that
he's intensifying andinternalizing the true intent of
the law.
Does that make sense?
So this is one of those six.

(17:40):
Here's what Jesus says.
You have heard that.
It was said eye for eye andtooth for tooth.
Jesus is quoting the law there.
But I tell you, do not resistan evil person.
If anyone slaps you on theright cheek, turn to them the
other cheek also, and if anyonewants to sue you and take your

(18:15):
shirt, hand over your coat aswell.
So, katie, you were kind ofalluding to this, but I'm
thoroughly convinced that thisis one of the least understood
of all of Jesus's teachings,because most people translate
verse 39, do not resist an evilperson.
Many just interpret that asJesus teaching passivity.

(18:36):
They think that Jesus is sayingthat hey, when someone wrongs
you, don't do anything.
You're to do nothing and ifanything, endure it and invite
more of it.

Speaker 2 (18:47):
Yeah, right, yeah.
This is the verse that wascoming to my mind when I said I
think we associate Jesus withpassivity.

Speaker 3 (18:54):
Right, Well, on the opposite end of the spectrum, I
once heard a preacher preach nojoke that turning the other
cheek was the act of turningyour body away so that you could
hit them back.

Speaker 1 (19:08):
Oh, my goodness.
Well, okay, so that's actuallya fun.
Okay, because when people takethis passivity interpretation,
I've noticed that they tend todo one of two things with it.
So they assume, hey, jesus mustbe teaching passivity here, and
it leads.
Do one of two things with it.
So they assume, hey, jesus mustbe teaching passivity here, and
it leads to one of twoapplications.

(19:28):
The first one is they eitherremain passive in the face of
evil because they think that'sbeing faithful to what Jesus is
saying.
Right, jesus is teachingpassivity here.
So when I encounter evil, I'mgoing to remain passive and that
way I know I'm being faithful.
The problem with this and we'llget into it more is number one
that's not what Jesus is saying.

(19:49):
And number two when you look atthe life of Jesus, you notice
neutrality and passivity in theface of evil simply allows evil
to reign.
And Jesus came to defeat theevil one and the effects of evil
in the world.
Right, okay, defeat the evilone and the effects of evil in
the world Right, okay.
But then there's this othergroup where they think that

(20:10):
Jesus is teaching passivity andthey just pick up arms and fight
you know what I mean?
Because they don't think Jesusis being pragmatic or practical.
So at least with the firstgroup it's like hey, you're
trying to be faithful to Jesus.
The second group is just likeyeah, that's not realistic, so
we're just going to set it aside.
It's good for Jesus.

Speaker 3 (20:30):
It isn't good for us, right, it's different.

Speaker 1 (20:33):
And I want to say no, that's also no bueno, because
whatever is Jesus is doing inthis passage and we're going to
get to it he's not makingretaliation possible.
He's not making retaliationpossible as a kingdom response.
He's removing that as apossibility, and the reason why
is because retaliation justkeeps the cycle of violence

(20:56):
going round and round.
I mean, I don't know how elseyou make sense of the history of
the world, except for to lookat the fact that we've tried
this and we keep trying to again, again.
We think that violence is goingto bring peace or end violence,
but in fact it just continuesto perpetuate it.
And, man, I just say I thinkthat we place way too much trust

(21:19):
and confidence in violence todo work that it can't do,
especially as Americans.
But, man, I'll just tell you,speaking of my trip to Ireland,
one of the things that youbecome aware of in Ireland is
that the Irish people for a longtime were oppressed by the
British.
There is a long history ofmistreatment there and violence

(21:46):
between those two entities ortwo countries.
But we went by the house thatused to belong to Dolores
O'Riordan, who happened to bethe lead singer for one of the

(22:09):
most famous Irish bands, theCranberries.

Speaker 2 (22:12):
I've seen her in concert.

Speaker 1 (22:16):
Yeah, okay, cool.
Well, in any case, one of thethings I've always loved doing
when you're visiting a place isto like listen to their music.
So I was like, oh, I shouldlisten to some Cranberries Like
who doesn't love the cranberries?
And at one point I'm listeningto the song Zombie you know the
song Zombie and I'm like, holysmokes, this is a protest song.
And so I pull up the lyrics andI'm like, yeah, sure enough,

(22:40):
she is protesting violence.

Speaker 3 (22:43):
I didn't know that.
Yeah, I guess I've never reallypaid attention.

Speaker 1 (22:49):
It was written in a response to an act of violence
that took place in the early1990s, where two children were
killed in England by an Irishbomb, and she was so upset by
this that she wrote the songzombie and zombie.
The title zombie refers tothose who perpetuate violence.

(23:11):
They're dead inside, they'renumb and unable to see the
humanity of others.
The perpetrators of violenceare like zombies, is what she's
saying.
They're mindless, emotionlessand trapped in repetition.
And just listen to the songLike she repeats the phrase in
your head they are fighting,making the point of how, like

(23:36):
old wounds and hatreds andideologies are driving present
action that isn't working butonly causing harm.
At one point she says the sameold theme since 1916.
I'm like, oh well, what's that?
So I looked it up and it'sreferring to this thing called
Easter Rising, which was abloody rebellion that took place
against British rule.
And so she's saying, look, thesame cycle of violence that

(23:59):
started then way back in 916,we're just repeating it.
We're just like zombies, youknow, mindless, emotionless,
trapped in repetition.
So anyway, I just think peoplewho have access are closer to
the non-redemptive cycle ofviolence, have greater clarity

(24:23):
and conviction that it actuallydoesn't work.
I mean, take for instance U2.
Bono, right, this is the themeI thought you were saying.

Speaker 3 (24:31):
U2, like referring to Katie and I.

Speaker 1 (24:34):
No, I'm on the Irish band bandwagon, like U2, their
song Bloody Sunday.
It's the same thing.
He's decrying and protestingnot in a partisan or political
way the horrific events ofBloody Sunday from the 1970s.

(24:56):
And so I'm just trying tohighlight, I think we as
Americans, because we don'texperience I mean think about
how much like 9-11 disrupted usyou know what I mean but like we
don't have like other countriesinvading us and like this thing
that's happening in ourbackyards day after day.
But those who do, those whoexperience this in a more

(25:19):
proximate way, I think, havetheir pulse on it in a way that
we don't, and know how to decryit and lament it and protest
against it.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (25:28):
Yeah, I would.
I would concur that in Americait is far too permissible for
even Jesus followers to actviolently.
Yes, and I think that's worthreckoning.
Yeah, and I often it's not apolitical statement as much as
like or I often— um you know,americanness.

Speaker 1 (26:00):
Yeah, it's a cultural conditioning towards violence
and permission to do so.
But the question is how doesthat integrate and reconcile
with the teachings of Jesus?
And at least, again, I'm notlike a sociologist but I'm
predominantly like a pastoralpresence and a theologian who's
studied scripture a lot.
And I'm just going how doesthis fit with the way of Jesus?

(26:21):
So?
So let's get back to thispassage for a moment.
I'm just going how does thisfit with the way of Jesus?
So let's get back to thispassage for a moment.
And I want to submit as clearlyas I can that Jesus in this
text is not teaching merepassivity, which is a legitimate
concern, to just remain passivein the face of evil.
That is no good.
But I also want to be veryclear that what we're going to

(26:43):
see is Jesus is countering ourfallen defaults to resort to
retaliation, to fight violencewith violence, to exchange blow
for blow.
In other words, Jesus is goingto push back on this fight
response and the flight response.
And Jesus is going to invite usinto a different way, and I've

(27:05):
just kind of named it kind ofthe kingdom way, a funny sort of
label kingdom Aikido, andhopefully it's a metaphor that
will stick but captures theessence of it.
So another fun, just sort ofrabbit trail on a strange word.
But Aikido is a Japanese form ofmartial arts.

(27:27):
Okay, but what makes it uniqueis rather than meeting force
with force the way MMA fightersdo, right?
So if you've ever seen an MMAfight, it's like two people
pummeling each other, right?
Whoever comes out on the topwins.
But the goal of Aikido isdifferent.

(27:48):
It's to use the opponent'senergy or attack against them in
a way that neutralizes thethreat.
Okay, so another way to thinkabout this is Aikido doesn't
seek to harm your opponent, butrather to disarm the opponent.
If you're a fan of Karate Kid,like me, I've seen every movie

(28:08):
and watched the entire Cobra Kaiseries.
This is more Miyagi-Do thanCobra Kai, if you're tracking.
I wanna suggest that Jesus isteaching something similar here.
Instead of fight or flight,jesus is teaching a form of
kingdom, aikido, like anonviolent act of resistance

(28:30):
that's actually rooted in love.
So let's get into this text alittle bit more.
Jesus starts by quoting ateaching from Torah eye for an
eye, tooth for a tooth.
This is known as the lexteliones.
Eye for an eye, tooth for atooth this is known as the lex
teliones.
Eye for an eye, tooth for atooth, and the entire point of
this teaching was actually agood thing.

(28:50):
It was to limit the amount ofrevenge one was allowed to take.
So let's say, someone punchesyou in the face and knocks out a
tooth.
The whole point of lex telioneseye for an eye, tooth for a
tooth was to limit your response.
In other words, you weren'tallowed then to like knock out
all of their teeth If they onlyknocked out one.
Your response was to be limitedto what happened to you, which

(29:14):
was a good thing, right, I don'tknow.
Part of me thinks of like WildWild West movies where it's like
someone insults you, what doyou do?
You gun them down.
Yeah, okay, so this was like agood law or rule.
It was to limit the responsewhen you were wronged to the
degree you were wronged in thefirst place.
That was the intent, okay.

(29:35):
But Jesus is going to say notthat, but he's going to
intensify and internalize thatin a new way.
Okay, and he does this bysaying do not resist an evil
person.
Now, that's an unfortunatetranslation.
The Greek word here refersthroughout the Old Testament, in

(29:56):
the Septuagint, which is theGreek translation of the Old
Testament.
In most of the times this word,this Greek word, is used.
It refers to sort of violentencounters.
So Jesus, in his response, whenhe says do not resist an evil
person, he's basically sayinghe's forbidding a violent

(30:17):
response.
A better translation, and onethat does not imply passivity,
though, would be something likedon't respond to evil with evil.
So, instead of do not resist anevil person, what jesus is
saying is do not resist evilwith evil, or don't react
violently to the one who treatsyou violently.

(30:37):
Don't strike back at evil withevil.
The translation I would offerwould be don't oppose evil by
mirroring it.
Is this making sense?
So it's not don't resist evil.
It's resisted in a way such thatyou don't mirror it do

(30:58):
something different yes, and andso again like to kind of
summarize starts with LexTalione's eye for an eye, tooth
for a tooth.
He's saying, not that, don'trespond to the way you've been
mistreated with the samemistreatment in response.
Don't retaliate that way.
Instead, he's saying you needto be transformed from the

(31:20):
inside out a theme throughoutthe Sermon on the Mount.
You need to have God transformyour heart, who you are as a
person, such that you canactually love your enemies.
And here's what that looks likeit involves resisting them,
resisting their evil, withoutmirroring it in response.
Is this making sense?
So far?

(31:40):
Okay.
Mirroring it in response Isthis making sense?
So far, okay?
So, with that in mind, nowJesus is going to give three
examples of what that looks like.
He is going to turn the othercheek, then give your second
coat away.
Give your coat away and go theextra miles.
Each of these are sort of weuse the phrase imaginative
gridlock.
Each of these are providingimagination for what it looks

(32:04):
like to respond to evil withoutmirroring it.
So let's look at each one ofthese, okay.
First example that Jesus givesto build our imagination of this
third way, nonviolentresistance, is to turn the other
cheek.
He says if anyone slaps you onthe right cheek, turn to them
the other cheek also.
He says if anyone slaps you onthe right cheek, turn to them

(32:25):
the other cheek also.
And with the passivityinterpretation right, what do
people do?
They assume that Jesus istelling them don't hit back.
In fact, turn the other cheekand let them keep hitting you.
Basically invite more.

Speaker 2 (32:39):
And that's, I think, a natural interpretation On its
face, on its face, on its face.
Yeah, in English, in English.

Speaker 1 (32:47):
In English and, apart from doing some cultural study,
that seems to be what Jesus issaying.
I want to submit to you that'snot what Jesus is saying, like
not at all All right.
So notice, let's break thisdown for just a second.
Notice that Jesus says ifsomeone slaps you on the right
cheek, okay, that's an importantdetail.
Why does he specify the rightcheek?

(33:09):
Well, he does so because thatmeans this isn't a punch.
Most people, just like today,are right-hand dominant.
If I were to punch you, josiah,in the face, what cheek would I
hit?
Your left cheek.
So we can already rule out thisisn't a punch, which means it's
a slap.
But in this culture, youcouldn't touch someone with your

(33:32):
left hand, because that's whatyou use to wipe your ass.
Your left hand was consideredunclean, so you couldn't punch
or slap someone with your lefthand, and so what that means is
this is a backhanded slap.
This is being backhanded by,you're being backhanded by

(33:53):
someone, which is what you woulddo when you were insulting
someone's honor.
Okay, so so follow this, this,this slap.
When someone strikes you on theright cheek, the attempt isn't
to injure, it's to insult or tohumiliate, and this would have
been a very normal way forsomeone with more honor or

(34:16):
status.
Remember this is an honor-shameculture.
Someone who had more honor ormore status could slap someone
who has less.
Like this really anytime.

Speaker 2 (34:27):
They want it All right, they're putting them in
their place.

Speaker 1 (34:30):
Putting them in their place, all right, so.
So typically then, if you werethe recipient of a backhanded
slap intended to insult you orwhatever, you had no way to
fight back, because that wouldbe suicide.
They have more honor, morestatus or so.
So the only legitimate responsepeople could imagine was to

(34:52):
cower in submission, right.
Retaliation fight would havebeen suicide, social suicide,
and so typically passivity wasthe most prudent option.
But Jesus is doing somethingdifferent here.
Notice, he doesn't instructpeople to cower in submission,
he's teaching kingdom Aikido.
So he says turn the other cheek.

(35:14):
So think about this.
Now what cheek are you offering?
You're offering your left cheek.
You were hit on the right cheek, so now you're offering your
left cheek.
You were hit on the right cheek, so now you're offering your
left cheek.
But here's what that means theperson can't backhand you again
because your nose is in the wayright.

(35:34):
You're not offering them thatcheek anymore, so they can't
backhand you again.
That's not an option.
And he can't punch you orstrike you with his left hand.
Remember that's a no-go, that'snot an option.
And rather than cowering,you're now standing your ground.

(35:54):
You've sort of regained some ofyour agency and it's as if
you're saying try again.
Why don't you try that again?
Only this time, treat me as anequal and if I hit you with my
right hand, an open-handed slap.
That is something that youdon't do to inferiors, but only
to your equals.

Speaker 2 (36:13):
Interesting.

Speaker 1 (36:14):
So this is brilliant.
I just think this is sobrilliant because it's kingdom
Aikido.
You've resisted the insult, theevil, but you haven't become
evil in the process.
You've used the force of theattack and turned it on the
person doing the attacking andnow you've robbed them of their
power to humiliate.

(36:35):
They intended to humiliate youand insult you and you've
stripped them of their power todehumanize you because you've
exposed the injustice and thesort of honor-shame dynamic for
what it is and you're saying no,no, no, try again.
Only this time You're going tohumanize me.

Speaker 2 (36:53):
Yeah, that's fascinating Right.

Speaker 1 (36:57):
Right and so so much different than just like offer
the cheek and absorb morewrongdoing.

Speaker 2 (37:02):
Here hit me again, here hit me again.
Here hit me again.

Speaker 1 (37:04):
You're actually going .
Hey, built into this backhandedslap is the assumption that I'm
inferior to you, and by turningto you a cheek that assumes
we're equal and removing theoption to hit me in the left
cheek again or the right cheekagain, I'm basically saying no,
no, no, no.
You're no different than I am.
I'm basically saying no, no, no, no, you're no different than I
am.
I think this is like so cool.

(37:27):
That's really interesting.
So cool.
Okay, let's okay, keep thinking, because Jesus gives more than
one example to kind of buildthis out.
If he just gave that example,it'd be like, okay, but he gives
a couple more.
Then he says, with the nextexample, he says if anyone wants
to sue you and take your shirt,hand over your coat as well,

(37:49):
okay.
So again, there might be atemptation to just go yeah, if
someone's mistreating you orrobbing you, just let them do it
.
No big deal.
Right Again, not what Jesus isdoing.
The situation Jesus is alludingto here would have been really
common for most first centuryJews.
Most of them were poor and,through oppression, had become

(38:13):
in debt.
In fact, when the Jewish peoplerevolted against Rome and they
overtook Masada, which was likekind of this fortress where they
kept the record of debts, thevery first thing they did is
they destroyed that record ofdebts.
That's how oppressed they wereas a people.
Okay, so the idea is thatyou're in debt, like most first
century Jews, and you're so pooryou can't pay your debt, and so

(38:38):
the only thing that you have tooffer as collateral are the
clothes on your back, theclothes you're wearing.
Okay, now follow this, because,again, first century Jews would
have been aware of thesedynamics.
According to the Old Testamentlaw, while garments could be
offered as collateral so if allyou have is the clothes on your
back, those could be offered ascollateral, but they had to be

(39:02):
returned by sunset, becausethat's all the poor had to stay
warm throughout the night.
So the fact that this person issuing you for one of your
garments shows you how ruthlessthey are.
They're not even willing tofollow the Old Testament law to
make sure you make it throughthe night.
Okay, so Jesus says man, he'ssuing you for your shirt.

(39:26):
Give him your coat as well.
And again, I want to submit toyou this is brilliant.
Most Jews had two garments theouter garment and the inner
garment and this other personhas taken one of them.
And let's just be honest nowyou're really up a crick,
because this person has all thepower and leverage and he's

(39:49):
taking you to court, and thecourt is most certainly going to
side with him, because he's theone who has power and prestige
in the community and all theresources.
Okay, and so Jesus says whenyou get there, you know what he
wants your shirt.
Give him the other one too.
He wants your outer garment.
Give him your undergarment too.
Which means what?

Speaker 2 (40:09):
You're naked.

Speaker 1 (40:10):
You're standing there , buck naked.
But notice why this isbrilliant.
You've got to follow this for amoment.
In this culture, we often think, oh, it's really shameful to be
seen naked, but in this culture, causing someone else, oh, it's
really shameful to be seennaked, but in this culture,
causing someone else's nakednesswas shameful.
So in offering both garments,such that you're standing there

(40:32):
naked, you're bringing shame onthem.
And again, it's kingdom Aikido.
It's brilliant because theresult is you're exposing greed
at work.
You're exposing the moneylender.
The money lender is notrespectable, he's exploitative.
That's how he's acting, and thecourt system is perpetuating

(40:53):
this injustice.
They're part of the problem.
And so, in a rather comical way, yeah, you're now standing
there naked, but really what'smost exposed in all of its
nakedness is the court systemand this money lender.
Not just you, but you'reactually exposing them in a way
that brings shame and disreputeand awareness to what's

(41:16):
happening.
You guys seeing this.
So you've almost pushed the lawto the point of absurdity, but
in so doing, you're exposing theexploitation for what it is and
again, I think this isbrilliant.
It's kingdom Aikido.
I'm so excited right now.

Speaker 3 (41:36):
Like Jesus was brilliant.
I wish people could see Max, Imean.

Speaker 1 (41:39):
Jesus is so brilliant To go, hey man.
Here's another example where itseems like you have no recourse
but, to just take it on thechin.
And here's something creativeyou can do that not only regains
, gives you a sense of agency inthe moment, but actually turns
the entire thing upside down andexposes the injustice and the

(41:59):
exploitation and the oppressionthat seems to be winning.
Okay, one more example, andthen we'll unpack this for today
.
Okay.
So then Jesus says if anyoneforces you to go one mile, go
with them two miles.
Again, the situation Jesus isalluding to here is when a Roman

(42:20):
soldier forced someone to carryhis pack.
Now, according to the law Romanlaw a soldier could require
someone to carry his pack forone mile, but not for two.
Okay, and in fact, the soldiercould get into major trouble if
he required someone to carry hisstuff for more than one mile.

(42:40):
Okay, so there's a limit there.
And, of course imagine being afirst century Jew they despised
this permission they were givento force them to carry things
because it was demeaning and itwas a really obvious reminder
that they're living underforeign oppression and they just
want to be free of the Romans,right, they want to be their own
sovereign nation.

(43:00):
So, but, just like the othertwo examples, how do you fight
Romans?
Right, they want to be theirown sovereign nation.
So, but just like the other twoexamples, how do you fight back
?
Right, you fight back andyou're going to be crucified.
So, so it was really quite thepickle.
So here's what Jesus says.
He says when you get to themile marker right, offer to go
an extra one.
And again it could seem likeJesus is once again take it on

(43:22):
the chin, don't do anything.
But I submit to you, it'smissing the force of what's
happening, far from justabsorbing more mistreatment.
Just like the first twoexamples, this is kingdom Aikido
and it's brilliant.
Jesus is giving you a way toreclaim your agency.
So, instead of being forced todo something, you're now

(43:44):
choosing to do something.
Right, it's almost like yourkids I do it myself.
Right?
Instead of forcing, beingforced to do something, you're
reclaiming your agency andyou're choosing to do something.
And notice, in offering to dothis, you're going to completely
throw the soldier off balance,because he's likely going to

(44:09):
question what is your motive?
Why are you going to go anextra mile?
Are you suggesting that I'm notstrong enough to carry my own
pack?
Are you insulting me?
Are you going to go an extramile so people think I've forced
you to go beyond the one mileyou're required to and try to
get me in trouble, like what areyou doing here?

(44:29):
Right, and what he's going todo is demand that you give his
pack back because otherwise yourisk getting in trouble.
And what a funny scene to havea Roman soldier begging a
peasant Jew to give him his packback, right, like it's kind of
comical.
Yeah, right, yeah.

(44:50):
So once again, this isbrilliant.
It's kingdom Aikido.
You're like the recipient ofthis injustice, this
mistreatment, but rather thanresponding by just absorbing it
or sort of fighting against it,you're actually doing something,
rooted in your own agency, thatexposes it for what it is right

(45:10):
and reclaims your humanity anddignity.
I think it's amazing.

Speaker 3 (45:17):
Yeah, it is.
It's really cool to see howcreative Jesus is.
It's really cool to see howcreative Jesus is, mm-hmm, you
know, like I don't think we givehim enough credit for his
creativity and offering that notonly as like a service to
people, like thinking ofcreative ways, he's also like
instructing them to act in thesame way, and I find that

(45:41):
refreshing that Jesus isn'texpecting like.
Jesus is not ignorant of theways that people are oppressed,
the ways that people aremistreated, and he offers them
another way.
I find that really inspiring.
I think that one thing thatmakes it difficult is I don't

(46:02):
remember the last time I wasslapped across the face and I
don't remember the last time asoldier asked me to carry his
bag for a mile.
I got slapped across the facethis week, no.
I did my son Griffin was angryat me wound up and slapped me on
the face.

Speaker 1 (46:17):
Okay, yeah, that's what he does when he's
dysregulated and he scratchesand pinches and slaps.

Speaker 2 (46:24):
Was it a backhanded slap?

Speaker 1 (46:26):
No, it was not.
It was intended to injure andharm.
Did you turn no.
Well, I have a strategy forGriffin that is rooted,
hopefully, in love.

Speaker 3 (46:36):
Yes, but no, for real .
There is a reality to the factthat these examples are very
cultural to that time, and thepeople that Jesus was speaking
to would have understood exactlythe strategy that you're using
to love your enemies while alsoreclaiming your own agency and

(46:58):
resisting the evil intent ofothers.
So they had lots of vision forthat.
I think we need some vision,for how does this look like
practically in our day?

Speaker 1 (47:07):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (47:08):
You know what does this look like for us.
The weapons our enemies use arenot always the same Right as
they were then.

Speaker 1 (47:14):
Yeah, I think that's a fair point.
I mean, apart from Griffin, whoyou know, I have not been
punched in the face, slapped inthe face, backhanded, I'm not
forced to carry a pack right,and so these examples are very
granular and sort of concrete tothat day and age.
They're sticky in that sense.
But there is a 2,000-yearcultural gap right where we

(47:37):
don't experience this exact samedynamic, this exact same
dynamic, and so one of thethings that I've tried to do is
sort of zoom out a little bitand go but what are the themes
or principles in each of theseexamples that are embedded in
each of these examples thatcould essentially become a
scorecard or a framework to fillout our response in our

(48:04):
cultural context?
So I've noticed that each oneof the examples that Jesus uses,
all three of these, have somecore components to them that I
definitely think.
Well, it won't give us exactimagination, for, however,
someone's mistreating us, atleast become like a checklist to
go ah, my response shouldinclude these things, okay, so

(48:27):
so, first one I noticed is justthat, like in each one of these
examples, it's very clear thatyou're not to respond in kind,
right or whatever wrongdoingsomeone's doing to you.
You don't respond by mirroringthat wrongdoing.

Speaker 2 (48:41):
Yeah, you don't slap back.

Speaker 1 (48:42):
Correct.
You don't retaliate.
That's the first thing.
So, whatever your response andthis is everywhere in the New
Testament you guys, like Paulsays, do not repay evil for evil
in.
Romans 12.
So this is sort of principlenumber one If someone wrongs you
, don't wrong them back.
Number two in each one of theseexamples you see Jesus

(49:05):
providing a way to reclaimagency.
You're reclaiming your agencyby doing something surprising
and unexpected that in some wayasserts your humanity and
dignity.

Speaker 2 (49:19):
I love that part.

Speaker 1 (49:20):
Right there, wrongdoing is dehumanizing.
In each one of these examples,the person responds by
reclaiming their agency andtheir dignity.
So, whatever your response isgoing to be, no matter what
wrongdoing you're choosing, ieagency, and it's going to be
asserting your value and worthas a human being.

Speaker 3 (49:43):
Yeah, it gives you.
There's something you canactively do in the face of the
injustice.
Yes, even if it's you knowsomething small.

Speaker 1 (49:52):
Yes.
So don't respond in kind.
Reclaim your agency in humanity.
Thirdly, whatever you do torespond should function as a
mirror.
Each one of these examples thatJesus gives, in a sense, is
holding up a mirror, so theperson who's doing the wrong can

(50:14):
see the wrong they're doing.
You're exposing the dynamic atplay right.
With the first one, you'reexposing the assumptions around
honor and shame and insult andhumiliation.
With the last one, you'reexposing the oppression that the
Romans inflict upon the firstcentury Jewish folks.

Speaker 2 (50:35):
Yeah, it makes me think of the phrase from the
Aikido definition you sharedthat you're using the opponent's
energy against them.

Speaker 1 (50:41):
Yeah, but not in a way to inflict harm, but rather
in a way to expose or help themsee the dynamic that they're
caught up in.

Speaker 2 (50:56):
Yeah, right, right.

Speaker 1 (50:57):
So, in other words, if someone's an enemy, the
mirror moment is to expose theantagonism or the way that
they're orienting as an enemy.
And then the fourth keyingredient, which is completely
missed in the mere passivityinterpretation, is that in

(51:18):
holding up a mirror, you'reactually inviting the other
person to repent.
So when you turn the othercheek, you give the opportunity
for someone to repent of theirhonor.
Shame game.
When you give the extra garmentaway, you're inviting the court
and the money lender to reformtheir ways.

(51:39):
You're inviting the Roman toyou know, stop oppressing people
, but you haven't done it in away that is retaliatory.

Speaker 2 (51:54):
You haven't scolded them.

Speaker 1 (51:56):
No, you've reclaimed your agency.
You haven't responded in clientkind.
You've reclaimed your agency.
You've held up a mirror to go.
This is the dynamic and youhave the opportunity to repent
from it and in that way, you'reactually loving your enemy,
because this enemy-making cyclethey're caught up in in the way

(52:16):
they're treating you, isn't fortheir good, just as it isn't for
your good for their good, justas it isn't for your good.
This is why all three responsesor examples Jesus gives are
ultimately rooted in love.
It's amazing.
You're actually loving yourenemy in a way that absorbs
their wrongdoing, in a way holdsup a mirror so they can see it

(52:39):
and invites them to turn awayfrom it.

Speaker 2 (52:41):
Yeah, and I think you said this the passive response
of just sort of taking itdoesn't actually get there.

Speaker 1 (52:48):
No, it just invites them to perpetuate it more.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (52:51):
Yeah, and it's ultimately not for their good
either for you to passively keepreceiving blows.
That's right.
It's not for their good.
I mean, you could probably makea case for the fact that, if
you want to try to make a casethat this is for my good or for
other people's good, maybe I'mabsorbing some blows that would

(53:14):
be meant for others, but in turn, enemy love is seeking out
what's best for them and it'snot in their best interest to
keep abusing you in that wayRight.

Speaker 1 (53:27):
And notice this is the impact of the gospel, right.
So, god, despite the fact thatwe were enemies of God, god
takes on flesh in such a waythat sort of redeems our
brokenness, but part of it isexposing it so that we can
receive forgiveness.
We have to reckon with where weare and then choose something

(53:47):
different.

Speaker 2 (53:50):
Yeah, I really like the four themes you pulled out
Don't respond unkind, reclaimyour agency, hold up a mirror
and invite repentance.
I think that that does ahelpful job of just sort of
summarizing what it is we'retalking about here.
Does a helpful job of just sortof summarizing what it is we're
talking about here, I guess.
I'm curious can you guys thinkof any examples where you were
able to do this or you tried todo this Like?
What has this looked like inyour own lives?

Speaker 3 (54:12):
Yeah, I have an example.
I was having a difficultconversation with someone
recently.
It was over text.
I won't share any more contexton that.

Speaker 1 (54:21):
Okay, I haven't texted him in a while.
Yeah, no, it's nobody in thisroom.

Speaker 2 (54:26):
We're both frantically yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (54:28):
No, it was difficult and it was starting to get
heated and this person saidsomething that very much it was
very much an attack on mycharacter more than just an
interpretation of events, and Ihad about, I had easily five
things that I could throw rightback in their face.

(54:51):
It would have been very easy tolike, escalate it, and that is
one benefit of textingconversations is you do get a
second to think about it, oftexting conversations, is you do
get a second to think about it?
And, um, you know, honestly,this was before I really
understood the whole Aikidoconcept, um, but I simply just

(55:12):
responded by saying that was areally mean thing to say.
That's all I said.
And then it kind of theconversation kind of fizzled and
then it was all a littledisoriented and all that kind of
stuff.
But yeah, it was two days laterthe person texted me back and
apologized.

(55:33):
They named that they didn't meanfor it to get so heated.
They were more honest about whythey were frustrated and named
that it wasn't really to do withme as much as it was a
realization of the circumstancesand the whole thing.
Like you know, I'm not givingmyself too much credit because,

(55:56):
honestly, some of my motivationmight have been really just to
like get them off my back, butit's cool to look at it in light
of this, with these lenses on,yeah, that I had the chance to
continue on the cycle, to fightback, or I could have avoided
and ghosted, oversexed and Idon't know.

(56:21):
I sensed a third way, yeah, andjust like it was just a mirror,
like what you said wasunnecessarily mean, and I want
you to know that that's what I'mthinking right now and it was
enough space and it ended uplike having a good result.
Now I think that we should bevery clear that kingdom Aikido
does not always equal, you know,a resolve within the matter.

(56:46):
In fact, most of the time itprobably won't if we have our
expectations accurate.

Speaker 1 (56:52):
Because you can't control the other person's
repentance.

Speaker 2 (56:55):
Yeah, it invites repentance.
It certainly doesn't guaranteeit.

Speaker 3 (56:59):
Yes, doesn't guarantee it.
Yes, yeah, but I'm looking atit with these lenses now and
more than I even thought aboutit before this episode that you
know.
It's like I didn't respond inkind, wanted to, had to resist,
that I was able to reclaimagency by naming my own dignity
Like hey, don't appreciate thatattack on my character.

(57:21):
That isn't a fair assessment ofwhat's going on.
Held up a mirror.
That's hurtful.
Yep, You're mean to me.
Well, yeah, I mean to name it.
that's all I was doing it wasn'taccusatory, it wasn't angry, it
wasn't Just naming what this isNaming what's happening, and in

(57:43):
the end it actually did lead toan admittance that hey, I was
wrong here, right.

Speaker 1 (57:48):
And if you had my guess, since you said, like dude
, four or five things you couldhave thrown right back in this
person's face had you done that,what would have happened?
It would have escalated, ohyeah.
And what's interesting is that,with this person's response,
you held up a mirror, you didall those things and then, a

(58:08):
couple of days later and again,it's not a guarantee, but a
couple of days later, thatresponse not only freed them
from the antagonism they wereperpetuating in that moment with
you, but provoked realizationthat something else was going on
entirely.
So that's why it was actually aloving move on your part, not
just a self-defense move, butended up being a profoundly
loving thing that you were ableto give the other person,

(58:29):
because it freed them from theirantagonism and created greater
self-awareness.

Speaker 3 (58:34):
Yeah, so I count that as nice to have a win.

Speaker 2 (58:39):
Yeah, with the thing.

Speaker 1 (58:42):
I've got stories.
I mean, um, maybe this one,this, this one, um, I think
captures some of the powerdynamics that were at play in
the examples Jesus gives.
You know cause this can happenbetween peers where there's
mistreatment.
I'm guessing that the personyou're talking to is more of a

(59:02):
peer, not like?
Well, it wasn't me, I'm not,I'm a boss, you know what I mean
.

Speaker 3 (59:06):
But like it was Cameron.
No, I'm just kidding.

Speaker 1 (59:09):
But I'm just saying like there were some power
dynamics in all the examples.

Speaker 3 (59:13):
Jesus gave so.

Speaker 1 (59:14):
I was trying to think okay, when was there a power
dynamic?
So this goes back to when Ifirst became a pastor, almost 17
years ago.
It's a long time, mac.
I know I'm old.
So I preached for the firsttime during one of our weekend
services and I'll just say Ididn't.

(59:37):
I'll be honest, like I didn'tlove preaching, still don't like
feel like I need to do it.
That was my first time speakingin front of a group of adults.
You know like I was nervous,whatever.
Well, that week after I gotdone preaching, I was just
feeling a sense of relief, likeI did it.
It's over.
Another staff member steps intomy office.

(01:00:02):
Now, this is important becauseI'm a pastor on staff and the
person who steps into my officeis an administrative assistant
for our worship team.
At that point the worship teamwas four or five people.
It was a much bigger sort ofentity, but they're not in a
director position, they're likean administrative assistant for
the worship team.

(01:00:22):
Okay, and you know me, I don'tput a lot of like I don't know
weight on titles, like everybodyon our staff, as we're we're
we're in it together, you knowwhat I mean.
We don't operate right now outof a strong sense of hierarchy.
But this woman steps into myoffice and she says hey, there

(01:00:44):
are a couple things I think youcould have done better in your
sermon.
So she launches into him andgives me some like constructive
feedback and I'm like, well,this is like.
I hardly know this person.
They're an administrativeassistant for a different
department, they're not anotherpastor on staff and they're
certainly not my boss.
This is feeling a little bitweird to me.
You know what I mean on staffand they're certainly not my
boss.
This is feeling a little bitweird to me.

(01:01:04):
But I just kind of was likeokay, I generally don't like
point things out or addressthings if it's not a pattern,
you know, because people can behaving a bad day or whatever.
Maybe she's just beingassertive that day, who knows.
Well, the second time I preachsame thing.
It was like a couple of daysI'm done.
Knock on the door, come on in.
I want to give you somefeedback on what you could have

(01:01:26):
done better.
And I'm just like at this point, I'm like what is happening
right now, like this isunsolicited advice.
I haven't asked for it.
Right Again, there's I can'tfind the organizational through
line to go.
This is appropriate.
Like again, you're in adifferent department, not a
pastor, not my boss, I don'tknow what's going on here.

(01:01:50):
And so I said that I'm like Idon't what is happening here,
like I haven't asked you forfeedback, but you keep giving it
to me.
I've never seen you publiclyspeak, so like I'm not saying,
like I can receive feedback fromanybody, but like I'm not sure
where your expertise is comingfrom, like I'm just confused by
this.
And she said well, at thatpoint, my boss she said the

(01:02:14):
person who was my boss invitesmy feedback and he wants me to
be giving it to you the same wayI give it to him.
Okay, so notice the powerdynamic.
She's leveraging my boss'sauthority and his voice to say I
have the right, or have beenput in a position, to be the one
giving you feedback.
So what do I do?

(01:02:37):
You know what I mean?
It feels like I have like zeroagency in this moment, except
for to just receive feedbackfrom someone that, like it feels
awkward, odd and, quite frankly, at this point, not very
helpful.
So I said, okay, well, whydon't you let me talk to my boss
and get some clarity on that,and then I'll get back to you
about whether this patternshould continue.

Speaker 2 (01:02:58):
Sounds fair.

Speaker 1 (01:03:00):
Right.
I'm fairly confident like maybe99% confident that she got to
my boss before I could and sortof detailed our conversation
that this was going to be cominghis way.
And the reason why I say thatis because when I did finally
get a chance to talk with him,it was very clear like he had a
response right away.
He was ready, he was ready andhe said he basically said, if I

(01:03:26):
can take her feedback, thenyou're not above taking her
feedback, almost like bro,humble yourself, which just kind
of for me I'm just being honestcompletely missed the mark,
cause it's not me.
I felt like, hey, it's not thatI have a problem taking
feedback, it's the person who'sgiving me feedback and that I

(01:03:46):
have zero relationship with them.
And so far the way I'vereceived that person's feedback
has been very condescending andwhatever.
So I'm like, okay, well, now Ifeel like even more in a pickle
because this other person feelsempowered to give me feedback
and now has the clear backing tokeep giving me feedback.

(01:04:09):
So here's what I did.
I felt like this was sort of mykingdom Aikido moment.
I went into this person'soffice and I said hey, I want to
circle back to you on thisdynamic of giving me feedback
every time I'm done speaking.
I said, hey, I got a chance totalk with my supervisor about it
and he said, yes, he does wantyou to give you permission to

(01:04:32):
give me feedback.
And she gets like this littlesmirk on her face, kind of like
I knew I told you so kind of athing and I said so, I guess you
have permission from him tokeep giving me feedback.
However, we don't really have arelationship with one another
and so you have no relationalcredibility to give me feedback,

(01:04:52):
nor have I asked you to give mefeedback.
So I want you to know that solong as you keep giving me
feedback, you'll be wasting yourbreath until we have that kind
of relationship.
Here's what I thought I wasdoing in that moment in terms of
Kingdom Aikido.
I wasn't responding to evil inkind or wrongdoing in kind.

(01:05:17):
That would involve me, kind oflike looking at her job
performance and then all of asudden popping into her office
and be like, hey, here's whatyou could be doing better.
Ha ha, you know, like I didn'tdo that, be very satisfied.

Speaker 2 (01:05:29):
I wouldn't have even thought of that.
That was good.
Yeah, you know what I mean.
Like it's not like I respondedby critiquing her performance.

Speaker 1 (01:05:38):
I felt like a similar dynamic, like there's power and
you feel kind of stuck, butinstead I said here's what
helpful feedback looks like andthe context is relationship and
you don't have that with me.
So I'm exposing the dynamic,yeah, but then sort of casting
vision, for here's what thatwould require for that to feel

(01:06:01):
comfortable and appropriate.
That would require for that forthat to feel comfortable and
appropriate, and I'm tilting thetable towards her to go.
Oh well, if I'm going toactually do the thing that I
feel empowered to do, I need tobuild relationship with this
person.

Speaker 2 (01:06:12):
Yeah, that makes sense.

Speaker 1 (01:06:13):
It does make sense, so I never got any feedback
again, which to me, um, in onesense like okay, well, good, now
I'm freed from like havingunsolicited advice dumped on my
desk every time I preach.
But on the other hand, it wouldhave been even better if she
said oh, there's some relationalgrowth for me, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:06:34):
You know, it exposed her motive, right Because?
If she genuinely wanted to help, I would imagine the invitation
would have been hey, you'reright, I want us all to get
better.
I feel like I have some goodperspective.
I've been listening topreachers for a long time.
But you're right, we don't havea relationship.
Can I take you out to lunch?

(01:06:55):
Let's get to know each other.
I want to build a goodrelationship.

Speaker 2 (01:07:01):
That would have exposed a more pure motive.

Speaker 3 (01:07:02):
Yeah, I really care about you, but the fact that
it's radio silence after thatexposes that the motive was not
to help.

Speaker 1 (01:07:10):
What about you, katie , you?

Speaker 2 (01:07:13):
guys have really good examples and they're really
deep.
Can I just share kind of like asimple, funny example that
comes to mind?
Sure, so I am often told thestory by my family about a time
that I was five years old, maybefive or six, and I had this
cousin that was my same age andwe played a lot together.
And apparently there's this onetime I think it's caught in a

(01:07:34):
family video we're runningsomewhere and she grabs me by
the ponytail and pulls me backand goes I'm first and I keep
running after her and I yell I'msecond and there's only two of
us, there's no third.

(01:07:56):
And I guess my family tells astory because this is like so
you, katie, just kind ofoblivious to the competition or
whatever.
But I was thinking about thisepisode and I was like, huh,
that was kind of Kingdom Aikido.
I didn't retaliate by pullingher hair back or fighting for
first place.
I reclaimed agency in a senseby joyfully choosing to be

(01:08:19):
second.
That's a good point.
Yeah, you could say I helded upa mirror.
My response, I think, revealedhow unnecessary the power grab
was, and maybe I mean she wasonly five or six too but maybe
made her reflect on her behavior.
Without needing to scold orshame her and without saying a

(01:08:40):
word, I actually kind of invitedher into a different way.
I hope I modeled that therelationship was more important
than competition, like thecompetition was unnecessary,
right Cause.
Like I'm just here to hang out,we're just going to have fun.

Speaker 3 (01:08:52):
I think that's helpful, um, because in one
sense, if you knew this andyou're constructing the perfect
response to someone who'swronging you in some sort of way
, great Like Jesus is invitingus to do that.
But it's kind of fun to use itas like a lens right To like put
the glasses on to look back atyour life and or look at other

(01:09:14):
people's situations and be andsort of say, oh, I can see how
that works and how that issomething different.
It's like an alternate way fromthe classic.
You know, kids on theplayground like you pulled my
hair so I shove you to theground and pretty soon.

Speaker 2 (01:09:31):
it's a fight, and that's kind of why the story is
funny.

Speaker 3 (01:09:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:09:34):
Like you expect to respond in kind.

Speaker 1 (01:09:36):
Yeah, and I think it's worth reflecting.
Okay, we're reflecting onexamples where we may have
gotten close to a Kingdom Aikidomoment.

Speaker 3 (01:09:44):
We'll also reflect on the moments where you
retaliated and I bet you got alaundry list of those and what
happened after that, and I betyou can name how terribly it
went, oh yeah, and how it sitswith you.
And then you walk away.
I just remember okay, not touse the example too much, but I
remember walking away from thatconversation and again, I didn't
have I just didn't have thereference to the Kingdom Aikido

(01:10:05):
at the time but I rememberwalking away feeling much better
about the whole thing and itwasn't resolved, of course.
You felt better, I felt betterbecause I can walk away with
sort of like a clean conscienceabout the conversation.
Yes, like I was engaged in it,I did my best, I was very
frustrated and then at the endof it was able to like I'm going

(01:10:29):
to put this in your court.
Yeah, like I'm not going torespond the same way you did.
Yeah, and you would have feltsuper crummy if you had thrown
the four or five things back inthe person's face and then I
would have went home and I wouldhave been justifying all of my
words and I would have tried toget as many people on my side as

(01:10:50):
to try to like garner supportthat I was doing the right thing
by telling them how it is.
You're avoiding all that.

Speaker 1 (01:10:54):
You would have also felt really crummy, though, if
you had just absorbed it, yep.

Speaker 3 (01:10:59):
Yeah.
Or if I would have avoided it,yeah, both of those things would
have felt really crummy.
Or I would have said like I'mso sorry, yes, appeased.

Speaker 1 (01:11:08):
Yes, I'll give one more story just to fill it out.
And I shared this when Ipreached on this.
I don't know when that was.
I shared this story at the end.
But when I was in college I gottricked into taking Greek, and
that's another story, but I hadto take it.
Yes, I got duped, but you know,I'm taking Koine Greek, which

(01:11:36):
is what the New Testament iswritten in.
And there was the classroom wewere in.
It was kind of broken into twosides and at one point, maybe
halfway through the first orsecond semester, I can't
remember when someone else inthe class I was talking to them
outside the class and they'relike hey, do you know who Alex
is from Greek class.
And I'm like, oh yeah, he sitson the other side, you know

(01:11:56):
whatever.
And this person, she goes.
Well, he has a nickname for youwhich was right away.
I'm kind of like surprisedbecause I don't know him very
well.
Why would he even be talkingabout me?
But she goes, it's Ekthras,which if any of our listeners
have taken Greek, they know thatword means enemy.
Literally he's calling me enemyand I'm like what is happening?

(01:12:20):
But like this is so bizarrebecause I haven like what is
happening Like this is sobizarre.
Cause I haven't I don't thinkI've had an interaction with him
.
It's certainly not somethingthat where I've like assaulted
him or like you know what I mean.
Well, anyway, it really itbothered me because I'm just
like I couldn't piece it to.
You, like why does this guyhave so much animosity and given
me this label and we even Ican't even think of a single

(01:12:42):
interaction we've had, animosityand given me this label and we
even I can't even think of asingle interaction we've had.
And and, interestingly enough,at that time I was really big
into memorizing scripture and Iwas memorizing Romans 12 and
that little phrase do not repayevil for evil uh, stood out to
me.
So I'm like, okay, gosh,everything in me wants to like
confront them or like gossipabout them or whatever.
But as I was memorizing thatpassage, I was like I'm going to

(01:13:05):
do an experiment.
So next time I walked intoGreek class, I just very clearly
walked past him and I gave hima genuine hello hey, alex, how
you doing man, good to see youSat down.
And of course I mean, look onhis face is like what just
happened.
And then the next time did thesame thing and he was also a
biblical studies and theologymajor.

(01:13:26):
So we had another class togetherand then I decided to like up
the intensity.
Instead of just saying hi tohim, really nicely, I'm gonna
sit down next to him.
So I sit down right next to him, I'm like, hey, alex, how you
doing, what's going on?
And I start asking him abouthis life.
And I'd start asking him abouthis life, and then it just kind
of kept building snowballingwhere, like every time I'd see

(01:13:46):
him around campus, I'd make sureto like give him the warmest
greeting possible how you doing,or whatever.
Just to make a long story short, we ended up having a lot of
classes together because Bethelwasn't a huge place and we were
both in the same major and overtime we became really good
friends to the point where atone point I was like do you
remember when you used to callme that?

(01:14:06):
That's what I heard through thegrapevine, Is that real?
He's like, yeah, that wasstupid of me and we laughed
about.
It.
Ended up being an usher at mywedding.

Speaker 2 (01:14:13):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (01:14:14):
So obviously not every story is going to end like
that, Like, oh, it would havebeen really easy to just kind of
like not like him in responseto him not liking me.

Speaker 2 (01:14:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:14:30):
And just simply responding kindly in a way that
didn't reinforce that I'm yourenemy, turned enemies into
friends, and that was a powerfulmoment for me.

Speaker 3 (01:14:42):
That reminds me of Steve Cuss.

Speaker 1 (01:14:46):
Yes, stevecusswordscom.

Speaker 3 (01:14:49):
What's the book?
Managing Leadership.

Speaker 2 (01:14:50):
Anxiety.

Speaker 3 (01:14:51):
Yes, he gives.
He talks about like emotionalintelligence within leadership
and he sort of has a breakdownon how to respond as a leader
when people are doing certainthings, and what does it look
like?
One of the things is whensomeone is giving you mixed

(01:15:13):
signals like passive-aggressivetype of tones where you're
saying one thing but don't quiteknow what they're meaning by it
.
It raises anxiety within thesystem and he talks about what
one of his favorite things to dowhen people are giving mixed
signals is.
If there are two differentnarratives that you could take

(01:15:36):
from the thing someone is saying, he chooses the more positive
one and just responds as ifthat's the only narrative to
believe.
Oh, funny.
So in some ways, like someonecould be like a
passive-aggressive email, yourmind goes through all the things
of like oh, I know this person,I know what they're really
saying and I know they're sayingthis, but they actually mean

(01:15:56):
this and blah, blah, blah andall those things, and so their
intent is to have an undertoneof frustration often, sometimes
things, and so their intent isto have an undertone of like
frustration.
Often.
Sometimes it's genuinely justmisunderstood.
But your response then, as theleader, to alleviate the anxiety
, is to just say, like I couldbelieve two or three different
things from this email and I'mgoing to choose to believe the

(01:16:17):
best possible scenario and I'mgoing to respond as if that's
the only way to respond to this.
Yeah, so I, I, I do that, I'mrealizing as you talk.
I do that.

Speaker 2 (01:16:26):
But probably not with the maybe always with the
purest motives, like like.
Um, I remember a specificsituation with someone that were
like I'm fine.
I was like, okay, good, I'm soglad you're fine, cause I was
really worried that there wastension there.

Speaker 1 (01:16:37):
That might've been a little snarky, but then it
forces them to be honest ifthey're really Right, yes, right
, yeah oh that's great he gave,I remember, in the book.

Speaker 3 (01:16:47):
I don't remember all the details, but he gave a few
different examples and it wasfunny and sometimes it exposes
where the person comes to and belike no, I'm actually angry.
Well then it's on them to ownRight.
Yeah, you know, but there'sother times where you just hold
it back and be like, okay, great, glad you're on board, and then

(01:17:08):
they never say anything and theattention is gone because you
kind of handed it back, so nowit's in their court if they want
to.

Speaker 1 (01:17:15):
Hey, honey, can I go out for a guy's night?
Sure, Do whatever you want,okay, great Thanks.
You are the best wife ever.

Speaker 2 (01:17:22):
Thank you so much for being so supportive of my
personal life.

Speaker 3 (01:17:25):
That's good, that's funny.
One more example, and I think,maybe just to increase
imagination, I'm also realizingthat I tend to be the person who
gives examples in parenting onthis podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:17:38):
Yeah, you're the parenting guru.

Speaker 3 (01:17:40):
Well, I just seem to sit like that's just what
resonates with me, you do have alot of kids kids.
I got a lot going on at myhouse.
so, um, but I think this workswith people who aren't your
enemies too.
Um, I think, especially withinparenting, it's so easy, um, to
power up when they're mean orthey do something wrong,

(01:18:02):
especially if they're beingdisrespectful.
It is so tempting to like,because you know, in the power
dynamic I can win this, and it'sso difficult to lay that down.
But being completely passiveisn't helping them either.
That's not in their bestinterest to let them walk all
over you.
So I have noticed that,especially with a couple of my

(01:18:24):
kids, this works really well issimply just hold the mirror and
name what they're saying, whatthey're doing.
Like, hey, you're yelling atyour dad right now.
I just want you to know thatYou're yelling at me.
Or I'll say things like, hey,hypothetically, hypothetically.

Speaker 1 (01:18:42):
This has never happened.
No, they would never.

Speaker 3 (01:18:45):
I am very expressive and loud in big kids and so
they're learning to regulatetheir emotions and so I want
there to be freedom to do thatand I don't want there to be
tons of judgment and get down onthem when they do Simply name
like hey, I'm going to give youa chance here to notice what's
happening.
You're yelling at your dad orlike you just hit your brother

(01:19:10):
Like do you like?
Like, because this happened,are you realizing what's
happening?
So sometimes just holding themirror can help.
I mean, it doesn't fix it, butit does.
But it sort of reclaims anagency, because now the ball's
in their court, it's not mine tocan like, sometimes you have to
do things, obviously to managesituations, but I don't know it.

(01:19:31):
Just it reclaims the agency asa dad to be like, oh, they, they
did say this, but I'm I'm sortof handing it back to them.
Like, hey, you, you, you have achance to change that response
here, yeah, and I feel like thatcan be really helpful.

Speaker 1 (01:19:41):
Yeah, and maybe just to highlight something that's
important in these moments,because I experienced them in
parenting too holding up amirror isn't designed to shame
or to condemn, but rather toinvite.
And that is different becausewe can hold up mirrors in ways
that are shaming or condemning,rather than saying hey, this is

(01:20:04):
the dynamic and I want somethingdifferent for both of us you
know yeah yeah, no, I think ithelps a lot all right
it's praxis time.
Um, you know, we end eachepisode by going okay, in light
of this sometimes theoretical,abstract dialogue, what can we
actually do to live into this?

(01:20:25):
So let's give our audience orlisteners, a few concrete things
they can do.

Speaker 3 (01:20:32):
Yeah, so this is something you can do completely
on your own, in your ownreflection is just to identify
where your default is, or like a.
You could other put it like an,like a unsanctified default.
What's your default mode?
Is it fight or flight?
And I would imagine this isdifferent within different
relationships.
I'm probably more fight in someways and flight in other

(01:20:55):
relationships.
But understanding your defaultis going to give you access to
notice your response before youdo it.
So if I know let's just say I'mhaving a conversation with
someone who is often frustratingand I know my default is to

(01:21:16):
avoid the conversation or to runaway from it, knowing that that
default is going to give me aclearer picture of, oh, I wonder
what the third way is, becauseit's probably not that.
Or if I you know with my kids,if I tend to be more power up
and into fight mode when thingsare threatened, I'm going to

(01:21:38):
notice that and now I can keepthat in my head as like, if my
first response is to fight,there's a chance now to respond
that, and now I can keep that inmy head as like if my first
response is to fight.
There's a chance now to respondto it differently.
So noticing your defaults issort of like a can be, like a
gateway into coming up with the.
You know, inviting the HolySpirit to think creatively about

(01:21:58):
how to respond to people.

Speaker 1 (01:21:59):
Yeah, you can't tame what you can't name.
So once you're able to go, ohyeah, I tend to shrink back and
just absorb the wrongdoing.
And here's the crummy feeling Iget as a result because I'm not
standing up for myself orwhatever it is.
Once you notice those patterns,it's really the first step
towards going.
Oh, then I can choose somethingdifferent.

Speaker 2 (01:22:18):
Right, and that's why , with each of these episodes, I
think taking time to reflectand journal and whatever is so
important, because you got to beable to notice that stuff.
Another practice I would namewould be focus on responding
rather than reacting.
I think so much of our life isspent like responding to things
happening.
Think about it your spouse doessomething and you I'm sorry I

(01:22:38):
meant to say so much of our lifeis spent on reacting.
Your spouse does something thatrubs you the wrong way, you
react.
Your kid does something, youreact Like we're spending all
this time just kind of bouncingoff of each other.
But Proverbs 15.1 says A gentleanswer turns away wrath, but a
harsh words turns up anger.
So rather than just againreacting to whatever your

(01:22:59):
default is it might be flight,it might be fight just this idea
of responding with intention ina way that diffuses the
situation without letting peoplerun us over, but reclaiming our
agency and choosing how do Iwant to respond to that, and
that again ties back into thatreclaiming our agency.
We're taking more ownershipover how I want to respond, as

(01:23:19):
opposed to just this visceralreaction that we would normally
have.

Speaker 1 (01:23:22):
Yeah, and feel free to use that.
I mean, you tried to pull outsome of the common pieces in
each one of the examples Jesusgave.
Right, you're not respondingkind, you're reclaiming your
agency, holding up a mirror andthen inviting repentance.
When you think about respondingversus reacting, you could use
those four categories to go,assuming there's time to reflect

(01:23:43):
, is my response sort of hittingthese, checking these boxes,
you know?
And then, finally, I just saystart small.
And, josiah, that's why I amgrateful you brought up
parenting, because there's somany moments where there's
opportunities to hold up amirror in a way that invites a
different way of relating.
If you're a parent, there'sdaily opportunities to do this.

(01:24:04):
Start small.
I mean, we were joking aboutGriffin, but a lot of what I'm
doing is that he has Downsyndrome and is on the spectrum,
and so when he is in anenvironment or experiencing
something that he doesn't likeand becomes dysregulated, his
way of saying I don't like thisis pinching and scratching and

(01:24:24):
so on, which stinks right, andit's not okay for him to pinch,
scratch and bite and do allthose things.
But what does it look like torespond to him?
Well, it's not bite his arm andgo see, you know what I mean.
Or scratch him back, and sowe've had to work really hard
and to some degree it's beenexperimental to go okay, but

(01:24:45):
what does it look like to go?
Ow, that hurts.
So he becomes aware of that.
That doesn't feel good, andthen my strategy is to just
scoop him up in my arms and givehim a massive hug and just say
hey, and then you know, this iswhat it could be.

Speaker 2 (01:25:02):
When you're dysregulated.

Speaker 1 (01:25:03):
Know that there's love waiting for you, Anyway.
So start small, Don't wait forthe big things.
Get to practicing right away.
Thanks for joining us today.
We hope that you enjoyedtoday's conversation.
Next time we're gonna start abrand new series that we're
pretty jazzed about.
That's all I'm gonna say aboutit, so stay tuned.

Speaker 2 (01:25:24):
Praxis is recorded and produced at Crosspoint
Community Church.
You can find out more about theshow and our church at
crosspointwicom.
If you have any questions,concerns or any suggestions for
future topics, feel free to sendus an email.
Also, if you enjoy the show,consider leaving a review and if
you haven't already, be sure tosubscribe.
Wherever you get your podcasts.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Dateline NBC

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Kingdom Aikido: Jesus' Way Toward Loving Enemies

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Dateline NBC

All Episodes

Kingdom Aikido: Jesus' Way Toward Loving Enemies

NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal