Learning to Lament

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We explore how naming and lamenting the impact of wrongful actions in Jesus's presence serves as the first step toward engaging in cruciform forgiveness. Developing this essential spiritual practice helps us move from bitterness to freedom.

• Why facing reality is essential for true forgiveness
• The cycle of enemy-making that traps us in unforgiveness
• How acknowledging pain allows healing rather than keeping us stuck
• Biblical examples of lament from David to Jesus himself
• The danger of spiritual bypassing when we minimize hurt
• How Jesus meets us in our pain when we invite him into our lament
• Personal examples of Jesus bringing healing through reimagining painful experiences
• The importance of growing our pain tolerance to increase emotional maturity

Take time this week to identify a wrong you've experienced, journal what happened, write a prayer of lament, and ask Jesus to speak to your pain. You can find resources for writing your own lament at on our website.

Writing A Lament Resource

Flywheel of Unforgiveness Illustration

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome every now and then.

Speaker 2 (00:02):
Nailed it.

Speaker 3 (00:03):
Welcome every now and then.

Speaker 2 (00:04):
Welcome now and here.

Speaker 3 (00:08):
This is going to be a good one.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
This is going to be a great podcast.
Welcome to Praxis, a podcastwhere we explore how to practice
and embody the way of Jesus inour everyday lives.
Thanks so much for taking thetime to listen.
We're in a series on the topicof forgiveness.
Few topics are more central tothe Christian faith.
Through Jesus, god offers usforgiveness and invites us into
a restored relationship.

(00:30):
It's easy for us to rejoice inGod's gift of forgiveness, yet
we often have a really hard timepracticing forgiveness
ourselves.
Rather than embracing thefreedom and transformation that
comes with forgiveness,including the possibility of
reconciled relationship, we getstuck in bitterness and
resentment, to our own detriment.
So in this series, we'retalking about how to practice

(00:52):
and embody the forgiveness thatJesus invites and challenges us
to live into.
Whether it's learning how toreceive God's forgiveness, or
asking others to forgive you, orextending forgiveness to others
, our hope and prayer is thatyou'd sense God inviting you
deeper into practicing the wayof Jesus with us.
Today, we want to talk aboutthe importance of naming and
lamenting the impact of wrongfulactions in Jesus's presence as

(01:16):
the first step toward engagingin cruciform forgiveness.
So that's where we're headedtoday.
Let's get into it.

Speaker 1 (01:34):
Welcome everyone.
My name is Katie, I'm Mac.

Speaker 3 (01:37):
I'm Josiah.

Speaker 1 (01:38):
All right.
So we usually start these outwith some sort of like
conversation starter.
Banter.
Yeah, I was kind of coming upshort this morning.
You know, like I just you guysknow I'm allergic to caffeine,
so sometimes it takes a whilefor my brain to get going.
So I went to chat gpt and saidgive me some conversation
starters for a podcast.
And there was a couple goodones, but I really liked this

(02:01):
one.
If you could swap lives withsomeone just for a day to see
how they live, who would it be?
So I can start.
I was thinking it'd be reallyfun to be like a really good
athlete, like just like a SimoneBiles, just like fly, fly over
the bars.
That would be cool.
Yeah, just crush it, coco Gauff, someone like that.

Speaker 3 (02:24):
Yeah, someone with a lot of talent.

Speaker 1 (02:26):
Yeah, maybe a really good skateboarder, that'd be fun
.

Speaker 3 (02:31):
Yeah, think about that.
I mean, there could bespiritual answers there could,
if you want to spiritualize itthere could.
I do think it would be cool toexperience life in the shoes of
someone who's in a completelydifferent culture than me some
different upbringing, differentfamily, all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 1 (02:50):
Yeah, it could be a different part of the world.

Speaker 2 (02:52):
Yeah, it would be fun to be like a professional
athlete for a day and just seewhat their life is like, right,
um, it'd be interesting to haveto like navigate the political
world, or you know what I meanor be a celebrity or whatever.
And then there's all sorts oflike more mundane things that
like huh, I wonder what it wouldbe like to be, I don't know,

(03:15):
like a nobody in the slums ofIndia.
Like that'd be reallyinteresting to experience that
for a day.

Speaker 3 (03:21):
You'd learn a lot.
Okay, do you know what elsecomes to my mind?
This To experience that for aday, you learn a lot.
Okay, do you know what elsecomes to my mind?
This is dark People withdifferent disorders.
I think I would like to seewhat it's like to have.
What is it called?
Now?
It's a disassociative identitydisorder.
You have multiple personalities, essentially, or someone who

(03:44):
hears voices in their head.
I would just want to know whatit's like to have that happen.
Yes, I don't want thathappening every day in my life,
but I think it would befascinating to experience it.
I think it would be soeye-opening.

Speaker 2 (03:59):
I think you've clarified my answer.
I would want to spend one dayas my son Griffin Because
there's often the question forJosie and I like how much what's
going on in his brain, how muchis he comprehending?
You know what I mean.
And it'd be really helpful tohave some access to that at

(04:20):
times, you know, I meansometimes he'll surprise you and
sometimes you're like what isgoing on?
You know, I mean sometimeshe'll surprise you and sometimes
you're like what is going on?

Speaker 1 (04:28):
You know, yeah, you are being a little punk.

Speaker 2 (04:30):
Yeah, like the other day at the he went to the
dentist this new dentist for thefirst time and at the end the
person, like one of theassistants, was like okay, go
over to like the little treasurebucket for kids and pick out a
toy, and just talking to himnormal, and he's like okay, and
walked over and did it.
That was surprising to usbecause sometimes you wonder how

(04:51):
much is he comprehending?

Speaker 1 (04:52):
how much does?

Speaker 2 (04:53):
he understand, because sometimes you will not
do anything, that is interesting.
And that would make a hugedifference in my everyday life
to go oh.
I'm on the inside of hisexperience in a way that I'm
currently not.

Speaker 3 (05:06):
So that reminds me.
I have another one now.
I have recently been listeningto a podcast I find it very
fascinating on the idea oftelepathy, so don't discredit me
completely right away.
I already have.
It has been proven in some ways.

(05:28):
They've done tests with people,and so the idea that people
could communicate telepathicallyis not necessarily a new thing.

Speaker 1 (05:35):
What does that mean again?

Speaker 3 (05:37):
It just means you can hear someone's thoughts, okay,
but specifically, there is agroup of people who are
nonverbal in the autisticcommunity Often have been,
essentially there's been.
There's ways for them tocommunicate with, like letter
boards and stuff like that.
They'll call them spellers.

(05:58):
All speak of this idea in whichthey can hear each other and
access each other in this placethat many of them have
separately, not knowing eachother, called the place the Hill
, and it's where they go intheir minds to communicate with

(06:18):
others.
They will pray for each other.
They will all talk aboutexperiencing one another and
encouraging each other.
Many of them have experiencedwhen someone they experience
loss within their community.
It could be happening halfwayaround the world, but they will
start mourning even when theydon't know it's happening.
So anyway, no matter how muchof it you think is proven, you

(06:44):
can go on and listen to.
There's doctors and scientistswho are trying to study it and a
lot of it.
These are like blind tests,doing it as scientifically as
possible, and they're able tocommunicate with each other and
it goes deeper than that and itgoes deeper than that.
But all that to say is to beable to be someone who could

(07:09):
access this hill in which theyseem to be able to communicate.
Would be really cool if it'sreal.

Speaker 2 (07:12):
Wild.
I wouldn't be surprised by thatI'm not like an expert in
quantum mechanics or things likethat but they have identified
that there's a greater degree ofconnectivity to creation than
we realize.
And I'm thinking I don't haveit off the top of my head, but
there's one specific thing thatI was thinking illustrates the

(07:33):
point you're making.
The other place my mind went tois that episode in the office
where Jim is moving the coatrack you know what I mean with
Pam's outfit to fool Dwight,it's really funny.
All right, well, speaking DeFuel, dwight, it's really funny.

Speaker 1 (07:49):
All right.

Speaker 3 (07:56):
Well, speaking of telepathy, yeah.
So before we get too far intothe content, I wanted to point
out how we've been beginningthese episodes.
So we're on the topic offorgiveness and each week that
we've been recording these,we've been able to share a
different feature story offorgiveness, and these are
stories that are radical innature and I think they help

(08:16):
give us, it helps put thingsinto perspective about what is
possible in the realm offorgiveness, and it also
inspires us to do the work of toactually do the work of
forgiving others, even when it'sreally difficult.
Last week we talked aboutCorrie Ten Boom.
She was a concentration campsurvivor and was able to get the

(08:37):
opportunity to face one of theNazi guards who had brutally
abused her and her sister, andmany others, obviously and he
asked for her forgiveness.
And it's such a powerful andinspiring story of the courage
it takes to forgive someone, andI guess what stuck out to me

(08:57):
was that in her retelling ofthis incident, she felt like she
was unable to forgive in herown strength.
She felt like she was unable toforgive in her own strength, but
she chose, as she's having thisinner dialogue, she chose to
stretch out her hand and trustedthat God could do what she
couldn't do in her own strength,like an act of the will, even

(09:18):
though she didn't feel like inher heart she could do so.
And as she did, she describeslike feeling God's love flow
through her in an experiencethat she said was life-changing
for her and for the other person.
So I would love to know ifeither of you two have another
story of some radicalforgiveness that can inspire us
today.

Speaker 2 (09:38):
Yeah, I've got one.
I want to share a story thattook place around a school
shooting back in 2006.
It occurred at West Nickel MineSchool, which was a one-room
schoolhouse in an Amishcommunity.
So if you're not familiar withthe Amish, they're Christians,

(10:01):
they belong to the Anabaptisttradition.
They're known for sort ofaggressively separating
themselves from the world andbroader culture.
So they adopt a very simplelifestyle and reject modern
technology, have very plaindress and things like that.
So they're kind of depicted alittle bit odd and they seem a
little bit odd.
But there's a strong emphasisin the Amish community on family

(10:24):
and church life andspecifically the teachings of
Jesus.
So in October of 2006, ashooter named Charles Carl
Roberts IV ends up entering thisschool shortly after the kids
had recess, and I'm not going toget into the scene of how
things played out, but he endsup opening fire and killed six
students ranging from the agesof six to 13.

(10:47):
Four others were injured andhospitalized and then he ended
up taking his own life.
So a pretty horrendous incident.
There was no crystal clearmotive.
This Roberts was 32 years old,he drove a milk truck and
reportedly had a history ofpersonal struggles, including
the loss of a child andunresolved emotional trauma,

(11:09):
seemed to be really angry at Godabout some of that stuff and he
left behind a note thatindicated he had grudges against
God which may have contributedto the violent actions.
But it's just a sad, obviouslyjust a really sad incident.
But here's what's significantit's how the community responded
.
So keep in mind again thatAnabaptists are known for being

(11:31):
extremely committed to theteachings of Jesus and the way
of Jesus, and so here's how thecommunity responded.
On the day of the shooting, agrandfather of one of the Amish
girls who was killed in theshooting was heard warning some
young relatives not to hate thekiller, saying we must not think
evil of this man, so kind ofgoing back to some of our cycle

(11:54):
of enemy making.
You can see him going.
Hey, we can't turn an enemy outof this person.
We need to remind ourselvesthat this is a person created in
God's image.
Another Amish father noted hehad a mother and a wife and a
soul, and now he's standingbefore a just God.
Again, another shift towardshumanizing this individual, a
Roberts family spokesman said.

(12:16):
An Amish neighbor comforted theRoberts family hours after the
shooting and extendedforgiveness to them.
One Amish man held Robert'ssobbing father in his arms,
reportedly for as long as anhour, to comfort him.
So that's the father of theshooter and Amish man held that

(12:37):
man in his arms for over an hourbringing comfort to him.
Amish community members visitedand comforted the Robert's
widow and comfort him On.
Amish community members visitedand comforted the Roberts widow
, parents and the parent-in-law.
The Amish also established acharitable fund for the family
of the shooter, knowing they hadlost a father, and about 30

(12:59):
members of the Amish communityattended Roberts funeral.
Wow, yeah, and one of the thingsthat stands out to me is that
this was a communal response.
I mean, in our previous stories, corrie, ten Boom and Ruby
Bridges they're individuals whoextended forgiveness and man.

(13:20):
They have very inspiringstories, so in no way you know
discrediting those or trying tominimize the impact.
I mean they have very inspiringstories, so in no way you know
discrediting those or trying tominimize the impact.
I mean they're incrediblyinspiring, courageous stories of
forgiveness.
But what stands out to me isthat you have an entire
community choosing forgivenessin the way of Jesus and it just
makes me really curious aboutwhat kind of corporate formation

(13:45):
did they undergo to be able toembody this together, rather
than just maybe one courageousperson who had attended to the
teachings of Jesus being able toreceive God's power to forgive
that way.
You know what I mean.
If some horrible incidenthappened in our community, would

(14:12):
we as a community have thattype of communal response,
because we're all submitting tothe teachings of Jesus and have
been formed into the way ofJesus?
Does that make sense?

Speaker 1 (14:18):
Yeah, it doesn't just happen, the day something
happens.
They were clearly, they werebeing formed spiritually long
before that point.

Speaker 2 (14:25):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (14:25):
So that what was inside them came out.

Speaker 2 (14:28):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (14:29):
Under when it mattered.

Speaker 2 (14:30):
Yes, so, yeah, so your name.
Hey, this was a.
They had been attending totheir formation for a long time.
Oftentimes, we get in thesemoments and something different
comes out, because we haven'tbeen attending to our own
transformation along the way,because we haven't been
attending to our owntransformation along the way.
So they had clearly beenimmersed in receiving and

(14:52):
extending forgiveness to oneanother as a community, so much
so that, together, all of themwere able to embody this posture
.
I mean, that's not asignificant number 30 members of
the Amish community attendedRobert's funeral.

Speaker 3 (15:03):
Yeah, and no one would have expected them to do
that.

Speaker 2 (15:07):
Well, they got ridiculed for their forgiveness
as counter to the way of justice, and so on and so forth.

Speaker 3 (15:16):
Yeah, I guess what comes to mind for me when you
read, when you're recalling thisstory, mac, is that it sounds a
lot like heaven.
It sounds a lot like what heavenis going to be.
All of us are going to beforgiven for things we've done
wrong, and I believe that all ofus are going to have to submit

(15:36):
to the process of forgiving theothers who have wronged us and
wronged the people we love, andthere's going to be no room for
bitterness and hatred when allthings are made right.
And so I think it's a beautifulpicture.
It's like the sky's opening forlike, hey, this is what it
looks like in God's kingdom thateverybody gets to experience

(16:00):
forgiveness, that even thethings that we've done wrong can
be forgiven, that our slate canbe wiped clean and recognizing
that sin is not just somethingthat we do, it's a force that
has acted upon us, and I thinkGod has compassion and love and
grace and lots of empathy forthose of us who are living on

(16:21):
earth experiencing the effectsand the impact of sin on our
lives, and I think a big part ofwhat it's going to mean to be a
part of God's kingdom wheneverything is made right is
going to be this type of stuffthat we're all going to be able
to reconcile, and this is whatit looks like.

Speaker 2 (16:38):
Yeah, and of course, as Jesus followers, we're called
to embody the kingdom.
Now this is what it looks liketo join God's redemptive work in
action in real time in themidst of a high stakes tragedy.
As a community and I guess mychallenge to our listeners is
cross point could we be the kindof people who practice

(17:00):
forgiveness so intentionally andhave done the work of, you know
, softening our hearts andlearning how to do that, such
that we're able to do ittogether when it matters, you
know?

Speaker 1 (17:10):
Yeah, what sticks out to me is how like subversive
that response was right.
Like, if the definition ofsubversive is is like
undermining the established waythat things work.
The established way that thingswork when something like this
happens is you get loud, you getright, mad, you get all the
things that were probablypresent to some extent,

(17:31):
naturally so, but you know, thefact that they were criticized
for responding this way showsthat their response didn't make
sense to people.
And while I think we would allassume that the normal response
of getting upset, getting back,getting justice, getting revenge
, would be the loud responsethat would draw attention to the

(17:52):
situation, in fact thisresponse was much louder.
Like, the response offorgiveness and of extending
peace and moving towards healingand reconciliation spoke
volumes because it wassubversive, it was not what you
would expect, and so I thinkalmost that response is the

(18:15):
reason we're talking about thestory today.
Like, my hope is that thisstory would have a legacy
because unfortunately, there arelots of school shootings.
Right, it's a terrible,terrible tragedy, but my hope is
that this one would speakvolumes because that response is
so unexpected, so subversiveand it shows us something just,
really, I think, really powerful.

Speaker 2 (18:35):
Yeah, which, by the way.
Let's just connect the dots.
If you're going to follow Jesus, you're called to live
subversively, you're supposed togive like the kingdom of God is
upside down, and so we'regiving witness to the kingdom
and by living subversively in abroken world.

Speaker 1 (18:52):
And this is a great example of that.

Speaker 3 (18:53):
Yep, yeah, that's beautiful.
It reminds me that, uh, of a,of a me, of a saying we have in
our discipleship curriculum isthat love is the most powerful
force in the universe, and it'simportant for us to redeem that
notion.
So we look at stories like thisthat simple but powerful love

(19:17):
makes way more waves than ourown effort and power of coercion
, or even in bitterness.
So, thanks for sharing that, mac.
So let's just set up today,today's episode, by going
through a little bit of whatwe've been in the last several
weeks.
So we're sitting in thistension where, on the one hand,

(19:39):
we know God loves and forgivesus, but just because we know
that we are supposed to forgiveothers in light of that, it
doesn't mean that we're able todo so.
We struggle with this as people, so kind of like the parable of
the unmerciful servant thatwe've referenced we are so quick
to forget how God's forgivenesshas been so freely given to us

(20:01):
and then we refuse to forgiveothers.
So there's this tension and sofar we've been dealing with what
it looks like to get unstuck inthis tension of unforgiveness.
Our first episode we talkedabout what forgiveness is and
isn't, and the reason why isthat?
Many of us, the reason why manyof us resist forgiving others
is because we confuseforgiveness with something it is

(20:22):
not.
So it's really important we getclear on what it is and isn't,
and we spent some time digginginto that.
And then in our second episode,we talked about this the cycle
of any, of enemy making or theflywheel of unforgiveness.
Cycle of enemy making or theflywheel of unforgiveness.
It's this vicious cycle wheresomeone wrongs us and we respond

(20:44):
by ruminating on that wrong,hardening our hearts towards the
person, which over time, leadsus to, for us, dehumanizing them
, turning them into an enemy.
And then it leaks out in theform of revenge, with varying
degrees of harm and intensity.
And then it leaks out in theform of revenge, with varying
degrees of harm and intensity.
And the more we get caught upin this cycle, the harder it is

(21:05):
to get out.
And then last week we focused onwhat does it look like to get
out of that cycle of enemymaking, where we fix our eyes on
Jesus, which ends up being thefirst and probably the most
important step in reclaimingyour agency?
Because between the stimulus ofwrongdoing and your response,
we believe we have a choice.
Instead of jumping into theflywheel or this cycle of

(21:32):
creating an enemy, we can choosesomething different.
We can reclaim our agency andwe do that by fixing our eyes on
the person of Jesus and how helived his life in this way.
So today we're going to zoom inon what we would name as the
first step in the process offorgiveness.
So, once we've fixed our eyeson Jesus, we've chosen to move
towards forgiveness, the firststep is to simply name the wrong

(21:57):
that was done and lament itsimpact in the presence of Jesus.

Speaker 2 (22:02):
Yeah, and, by the way , I talked with Adam and we have
some diagrams of the cycle ofenemy making and then the steps
that we're gonna be outlining inthe future episodes and stuff.
So we'll put those in the shownotes for people so that if,
like, it's hard to listen andimagine what we're talking about
, you can get sometimes thevisual helps you know to be able
to see that cycle.

(22:23):
Um might help you kind of puttogether what we're talking
about.

Speaker 1 (22:26):
Yeah, just don't look if you're driving.

Speaker 2 (22:28):
That's right.
Yeah, you're.
Yeah, you're going to want todo this when you're not, um you
know driving a 2000 pound umpiece of metal.

Speaker 1 (22:36):
I often listen to podcasts when I'm driving, oh
yeah, for sure.

Speaker 2 (22:39):
Yeah, so let's get into it.
We're saying once you've fixedyour eyes on Jesus, which frees
you from the cycle of enemy,making the first step in the
process of forgiveness and nowyou're moving towards
forgiveness is to well, you haveto name what's happened, the
wrong that's happened, theimpact it had on you, and lament

(23:02):
it in the presence of Jesus.
And so why don't we start here?
Why would you say it'simportant to name the wrong that
happened?
I mean, this first step isgoing to be to actually sit in
the wrong that happened to youand the impact it had on you and
then lament that in Jesus'spresence.
Why start here?

(23:22):
Why is it important to name thewrong?
What would you guys say?

Speaker 3 (23:25):
Yeah, the first thing I would name is a commitment to
facing reality and we're goingto avoid suppressing and pushing
things away because, as peoplewho follow Jesus, we're
believing that God is real andhe meets us where we really are,
and so often we miss out on theway God is wanting to meet us

(23:50):
in that space because we avoidfacing reality as it really is.
This is another little sayingnaming is taming.
So if you're able to name whathappened and itemize it down
into real language that you cangrasp, it has the effect of
taking something that looks bigand ethereal and like a big

(24:13):
monster in your closet andbrings it down into reality and
brings it down into terms inwhich we can face.
And really avoiding the realityof what happened always takes
more energy than it actuallytakes to face it, and so we end
up things end up getting sort oflike pumped up and blown out of

(24:36):
proportion in our minds becausewe avoid naming in reality what
happened and the impact it hadon me.

Speaker 2 (24:45):
Yeah, we'll have more to say about this as this
conversation continues, abouthow you can meet God at the
center, in the center of yourpain.
He's waiting there to meet youwith his redemptive and healing
love.
But I want to be clear thatwhat we're not saying is that
facing reality isn't going to beuncomfortable or painful.
Right, it's going to involvemaybe experiencing some

(25:08):
unpleasant emotions and feelingsalong the way, some unpleasant
thoughts and memories, and Ithink for many people that's why
they avoid going back to thesehurts and pains is because now I
kind of have to relive them alittle bit, you know.
But I think, josiah, you'renaming something insightful,
which is the cost of suppressingthe past and the painful things

(25:29):
that had happened there.
In fact, both psychologicallyand physiologically.
Well, there's a cost to thatright.
And physiologically, well,there's a cost to that right.
I mean, psychologically, weknow that it can cause
depression and anxiety.
If you've got a lot of undealtwith pain in your background
that's just sitting underneaththe surface, it can lead to
depression, anxiety.
It can lead to emotionalnumbness.

(25:51):
You try to numb that part andso now you're numb in other
areas of life where you reallyneed to be fully alive.
Now you're numb in other areasof life where you really need to
be fully alive.
You can have intrusiveflashbacks to things that were
unpleasant, even though you'retrying to forget them and keep
them at a distance, and thenphysiologically it can get in
the way of your cognitivefunctioning, you're not able to
focus, it can cause memoryissues, it can prevent you from

(26:11):
getting good sleep, and I thinkso.
I'm saying we need to learn howto go.
Yes, this is gonna be hard andit's worth it.
I remember one time I wassitting with my therapist and I
can't remember what we weretalking about, but it was some
relational situation and I havethe tendency to like try to

(26:32):
think things through from likeevery angle and sort of ruminate
on things.

Speaker 1 (26:35):
No, yeah, come on.

Speaker 2 (26:39):
And my therapist is awesome.
She knows this about me too,but she said to me kind of like,
as I was like I don't know whatto do about this, and whatever
she goes, perhaps continuing tothink about all of this is
preventing you from sitting withthe uncomfortable feelings
connected to the fact that whatyou're working so hard to
prevent might actually happenRight.

(26:59):
In other words, the work is notto solve this problem, mac.
The work is for you to sit withthe emotions, knowing that this
might happen and dealing withthe discomfort of that.
And you know, I've got.
I know one guy who has had alot of tragedy in his life, a
lot of hard things, and hehasn't dealt with it, not even

(27:20):
close, and it's because he'safraid.
If he looks at the hard andpainful things he's experienced
in life, he'll be swallowed upby that grief.
And my voice to him, to thedegree that I can exercise, it
is to go.
I know it's gonna be hard, butGod's waiting for you there and
will ensure you're not swallowedup by it.

Speaker 3 (27:38):
Yeah, as you're saying that, it's a false sense
of control we think we have,when we either hold onto it or
we avoid it.
In your mind, you're thinkingyou're able to control, but that
sense of control you have isjust avoiding, it creates more
anxiety within you and it justdoesn't go anywhere.

Speaker 1 (27:58):
Well, yeah, it's like you assume, okay, if this thing
is really hard, that happenedand I don't want to look at it,
because if I look at it, if Isit with it, I might get stuck
there.
But in reality the opposite istrue.
right, by not going there you'remore stuck by going there,
you're actually able to thenmove towards healing and move
through it.
I was on the Peloton thismorning on the bike and at the

(28:21):
hardest part of the ride theinstructor was like I know it's
uncomfortable, stay in thediscomfort.
And it occurred to me like, ah,that's kind of like what we're
talking about today.

Speaker 2 (28:31):
Yeah, and my friend Jim Harrington says this all the
time.
He's like if you want to growyour emotional maturity, you
have to grow your pain tolerance.
I like that.
It's the only way it happens.
If you want to grow yourmaturity as a human being, you
have to grow your pain tolerance.

Speaker 1 (28:45):
Yeah, there's no shortcuts around.

Speaker 2 (28:47):
No, because who we are, our emotional maturity um
is exposed.
When we're under pressure, whenwe're uncomfortable, it's not
there.
When we're having a perfectmorning, sipping coffee decaf
maybe, katie that's not whereyou're mature.
It's easy to be composed inthose moments, right?

Speaker 3 (29:06):
Yeah, Thick skin soft heart, oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (29:09):
Yeah, that was a good one, it gets stuck in my head a
lot.
Yeah.
So, josiah, you and I both leadleadership intensives and at
the beginning we start bydwelling in some missional
axioms, and one of the axioms isGod only meets us in reality,
and I can't tell you how manytimes throughout the year that
comes up with people, becauseit's like no God meets you in
reality, like we got to start bygetting present to reality, and

(29:30):
a lot of times that's reallyhard, especially with this kind
of stuff.
Reality wins.

Speaker 2 (29:35):
That's why God meets us there.
It's reality wins If you'resuppressing and avoiding painful
things.
Those painful things didn't goaway and they're winning.
You know what I mean, so you'vegot to face it and it's going
to be uncomfortable.

Speaker 1 (29:49):
What else would you guys say?
Yeah, this one is related andmight sound obvious, but I would
say we have to acknowledge thepain that hurtful actions had on
us.
I know that it can be reallyeasy to ignore or to minimize
the impact that somethinghurtful had on us.
At least for me it is, and Ithink sometimes, even being a

(30:09):
follower of Jesus, we want to bepeople who, like extend grace
to other people and overlookoffense.
And yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, wedo want to do that.
We certainly don't want to goaround looking for a reason to
be offended, right Like lookingunder every rock for something
to be upset about.
But at the same time, stuffhappens Like we're humans, we
are messy, we just bump intoeach other, we hurt each other's
feelings and when those thingshappen, we want to be rooted in

(30:33):
truth.
Right Like, as Josiah said, wewant to be rooted in truth.
We want to be rooted in reality, and I think that means
starting by acknowledging thetruth of what happened.
I think, if anything, I mightfall into the category of being,
I don't know.
I don't think I'm easilyoffended.
I tend to be so easygoing thatI'm sure at times I probably
miss opportunities to recognizewhen something actually does

(30:54):
hurt me or frustrate me.

Speaker 2 (30:55):
Yeah, you're just out of touch.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (30:57):
Just like we're constantly giving you zingers
you should be attending to?
Yeah, but I will say, on thetimes of my life I've been on
the other end of this where Ihave unintentionally hurt
someone else Like I can think of, especially with my husband,
like early in our datingrelationship he grew up in a
family where it was like youdon't really acknowledge that

(31:19):
stuff.
So he'd be like no, it's fine.
No, it's fine.
And I remember sometimes beinglike I know it's not fine, like
I actually want to hear what Idid, how it's impacting you.
Are you upset Like what's goingon?
Like I really want to knowbecause I want to try to not do
that thing again.
I want to be able to talkthrough it.
I want our relationship to you,know, to be better and

(31:39):
healthier and if we don'taddress it, we're never going to
get to that point.
We're going to keep runninginto each other in the same ways
.
And so I would say, as being onthe other person of this and
the other side of that, whenyou're in relationship with
someone you really care about,you should actually want to know
the way that you hurt someoneand the impact it had on them.

Speaker 2 (31:56):
Yeah, yeah, and I think what you're naming is it
requires some emotionalvulnerability to name that.
Something hurt you, you know.
It requires some courage and wedon't like that to go.
Yeah, what happened here hadthis impact on me and it was
hurtful.
You said, you used a phrase,you said we're human beings just

(32:16):
crashing into each other, and Ilike what Steve Cuss says.
He often reminds us that wehave to be human sized and I
think sometimes we feel thispressure to be sort of
impervious to pain.
Right, like other people'sactions don't really affect me
because I'm so grounded in myidentity in Christ or whatever,
whatever spin you want to put iton, because I'm so grounded in
my identity in Christ orwhatever spin you wanna put it

(32:37):
on, which actually isn't howJesus lived his life at all or
how God is depicted throughoutthe scriptures.
He is hurt by our actions andgrieves those and laments those.
We'll get into that more in amoment, but I think it's just
worth saying hey, when people door say things that are hurtful,
part of being human is just tosay this is what this did to me

(32:59):
and I'm on a growth curve withthis, and I'll give you an
example.
I remember.
You know, in any church, whenyou've been at a church for a
long time and both of you havebeen part of our community for a
long time you see people comeand go.
Some people leave for normalreasons, you know they move or
take a new job or whatever.
Some people, though, they don'tleave well, and the way they

(33:23):
leave often is hurtful, and fora long time.
Serving under my predecessor,those felt like like the
maturity level when people leftfelt basically like a middle
school breakup, like that wasthe maturity between both
parties, and so when I becamethe lead pastor, I thought I
really don't want to repeat thatpattern of like every departure

(33:44):
is treated like a middle schoolbreakup.
I want to be more gracious, Iwant to be more caring, I want
to be more kind, and so for thefirst few years, whenever
someone would leave, my defaultwas to thank them for their
participation in our communityand maybe highlight some ways
that they served.
I really appreciate you andknow that our doors are always

(34:05):
open to you if you ever decideto return and bless them.
And I don't think that was allbad I mean it did some good work
for me or whatever but therewas a moment when I was actually
reading the gospels and Inoticed when people walked away
from Jesus, he often gave them aquestion.
He would say or do somethingthat was geared at their

(34:26):
discipleship and formation, thatwas designed to basically haunt
them at night In a good way.
In a good way, yeah, because itwas for them.
Yeah, right, you know, likewith Rich Young Ruler, like go
and sell everything you have,like that is he probably.
He walked away sad, but heprobably thought about that a
lot.
We actually don't know whathappened long-term, you know,
who knows?
But I just realized, hey, I'mmissing a discipleship

(34:49):
opportunity here.
It's great to thank people forhow they've participated in our
community.
I want to keep doing that and Iwant to remind them our doors
are open and bless them.
But to the degree their actionshave been hurtful or how
they're leaving is full ofimmaturity, I've started to kind
of I don't know experiment withnaming that.
Hey, here's what you're doingand saying right now and that's

(35:11):
hurtful to me and here's why.
And to the degree we don'tattend that, you're
short-circuiting yourdiscipleship and mine.
And so I've tried that with afew people.
It doesn't seem to be goinggreat, but I feel like, hey, I'm
growing my capacity to not justbe like a punching bag that
then blesses people, but moregoing.
No, here's what you're doing,like.

(35:32):
You're accusing us of beingculturally complicit, even
though we see ourselves astaking steps towards
faithfulness, and now you're notwilling to talk about it.
Here's the impact of that.

Speaker 3 (35:42):
You know what I mean.
And it doesn't mean you won'tget to the place in which you
can bless them, right.
It doesn't mean that you can'tget to a spot where you're able
to bless them in that sense, butyou're unwilling to be ignorant
, to bless them in that sense,but you're unwilling to be
ignorant.
And I think that ignorance isnot Christ-like.

(36:03):
I don't think that we have tobe ignorant in order to forgive
people.

Speaker 2 (36:08):
Yeah well, to the degree we're forgiving out of
ignorance, we're not reallyforgiving.

Speaker 3 (36:12):
We're not actually forgiving.
Yeah, that's what we talkedabout the last couple weeks.
It's a surface-levelforgiveness.
You're not actually forgivingthe thing that actually happened
, right.

Speaker 2 (36:24):
Yeah, and maybe to highlight what the point of me
sharing that illustration is, isthat I noticed it took some
more emotional vulnerability,instead of just thanking people,
blessing them and you know, andletting them walk away.
It took some.
I had to grow in my emotionalvulnerability, go timeout.
What you're saying to me rightnow is hurtful, and here's why

(36:49):
we're just doing the blessingthing.
Actually, like was kind of like.
I'm not saying it's notcourageous, but less courageous
for me.
All right, maybe let me shareone more reason why I think it's
important that we start byreally naming the wrong that
happened, and that is thatyou're laying a foundation for

(37:12):
accountability, should there beany reconciliation moving
forward, okay.
So explicitly naming a wrongthat was done to you lays a
foundation for accountability bybringing clarity, truth and
responsibility to the situation.
So you've named this.
Accountability requiresattending to reality, just what

(37:34):
you were saying.
We're not going to be ignorantabout this.
We're not going to pretend itdidn't happen.
Just as God meets us in reality, forgiveness requires attending
to reality, okay, and so whenwe engage this work of naming
what happened and its impact,here's what we're doing.
We're naming the wrong, we'renaming a true statement this is
what happened and naming thewrong prevents confusion or

(37:57):
denial.
Right, it ensures that whathappened is acknowledged as
reality, making it hard todismiss it or minimize it when
you have a conversation with theother person.
That make sense.
So you're clarifyingresponsibility, you're clearly
identifying what was done and bywhom, and that places
responsibility where it belongs,preventing vague accusations or

(38:20):
misplaced blame.
You're preventing avoidancewhen wrongdoing is unnamed or
generalized, it allows theoffender or others to evade
responsibility.
So specificity forcesconfrontation with the truth.
Here's what actually happenedand you're creating a pathway
for repentance and repair.
You're holding out the hope ofreconciliation, because genuine

(38:43):
reconciliation doesn't happenunless we actually deal with
what transpired.
And that's a big part of whathas led me to naming when people
depart like bless you, thankyou, and so on, and what you're
doing right now is hurtful anddetrimental.
For these reasons, now you'regoing to walk out the door, but

(39:04):
I'm also laying a foundationthat if you return, we're going
to have to pick up theconversation there.
Forgiveness is waiting onhopefully both directions, but
we're going to have to deal withthe things you said and did
while you were leaving here.
You know what I mean.
Kind of setting a foundation.
Go, here are the facts, here'swhere the responsibility lands,
and so in the future, we'reattending to that with the goal

(39:27):
of reconciliation.
Does that make sense?
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (39:29):
It also does the work of making sure that you're able
to be wise and discerning inwhat your relationship moving
forward can look like.
I'm not saying that all theserelationships, of course.
Our vision is that fullreconciliation, you can build
trust, you can reconnect, andthat's great.

(39:50):
But sometimes people are notnecessarily apologetic or maybe
they're dangerous in some wayand it's okay for you to forgive
and extend the offer toreconciliation.
But fully naming what happenedallows you to make wise
decisions in laying it out onthe table so that this person

(40:13):
can sort of maybe provethemselves in a way that their
intent is for you, is for good,instead of continued abuse and
manipulation and all thosethings.

Speaker 2 (40:25):
I think I hear what you're saying.
You're saying it also givesclarity to you if it does lead
to reconciliation, how quicklyor if at all you might re-engage
in trusting this person.

Speaker 3 (40:39):
Right, yeah, kind of itemized.
This is what it's going to takefor reconciliation to take
place, because I'm well aware ofwhat happened and, if you have,
you have to meet me there in X,y and Z, yep.

Speaker 1 (40:54):
All right.
So let's say that we've donethis.
Something has hurt us oroffended us or caused us
relational pain, and we've donethe hard work of acknowledging
that pain, facing reality,moving towards accountability.
The next step, I think once youhave these thoughts, once

(41:14):
you've started to do this workin your head, I think next, a
good next step, is to get itdown on paper.
I don't know about you guys,but I'm a journaler, like I love
journaling, and I think there'sjust something so powerful
about giving kind of puttingthose words down and and really
getting specific about what's inmy mind.
It helps me clarify, it helpsme sit in the motions, it gives

(41:39):
me something to reference backto in the future when I'm coming
back to it.
So I would just suggest that agood next step, a way to move
forward, is to get out yourjournal and to write down all
the things that we've talkedabout and record the impact that
all of this has had on you.
It's a really good practice.
We talk about it a lot.
The next step after you do thatis to move into lament or to

(42:01):
grieve all of this.
So we're talking about lament.
Why don't we just start bysaying, like, what is it?
Yeah?
What is lament?

Speaker 2 (42:09):
Yeah.
So again, we've made a case forwhy you have to attend to
reality.
I would echo what Katie'ssaying Get your journal out and
write down the wrongs thathappened as explicitly as you
can.
Here's what the person did,here's what the person said, and
so on.
So you have a record of whattranspired and then you create
space to go and here's how thatimpacted me in my life.

(42:32):
And then we're going to createsome space to lament that in
Jesus's presence.
So lament is simply a passionateexpression of grief or sorrow.
That's what a lament is.
It's a passionate expression ofgrief or sorrow.
And what is important to noteis that lament is a distinct

(42:55):
genre in the writings ofscripture.
So there are in the book ofPsalms there's 150 Psalms and
roughly one third of them arelaments that genre.
Some are personal laments, sothey're an individual lamenting
something that happened in theirown life, and others are
communal laments.
They're written on behalf ofthe entire nation of Israel,

(43:17):
like lamenting exile orsomething like that.
Additionally, there are lamentsfound in several books in the
Bible.
So the prophets, like Jeremiahand Habakkuk, contain laments.
Job if you read the book of Job, there's laments in there and
there's an entire book in theOld Testament called

(43:38):
Lamentations.
So lament is a literary genreand even forms a book in the
Bible.
It's also important to note thata lament is a form of prayer.
So it's a genre, but it's also,at its heart, a prayer.
In the Bible, lament isexpressed to God and therefore
is a form of prayer.
It involves an honest cryingout to God about some form of

(44:01):
pain being experienced in life,like an injustice, a loss, an
area of sin, and it also oftenincludes a declaration of trust
in God's faithfulness.
So when you read the Psalms,for instance, when you read the
Psalms that are laments, whatyou'll discover is there's, like
some key components that all ofthem include.

(44:23):
So there's actually sixcomponents that comprise a
lament, and I'll just name thembriefly.
The first is it's addressed toGod, so the lament is directed
to God in some way.
Secondly, the complaint oraccusation is issued.
So there's some complaint orcrying out.
That's a part of it, and thiscan happen in one of three

(44:45):
directions, okay.
So the first is a you complaint.
So this is a complaint againstGod about how God has failed
them or their perception thatGod has failed them.
Okay.
The second is a they complaint.
This other person is doing thisto me or they did this to me
and I'm sort of lamenting that.

(45:05):
And the.
And the third one is then an Icomplaint, and this is where you
maybe lament your own actionsor wrong behavior.
So it's addressed to God.
Secondly, there's a complaintor accusation, either against
God, someone else or somethingyou did.
Then there's a confession, andthat is they confess their need
for God's grace or forgivenessor intervention or whatever

(45:27):
You're naming your dependency onGod.
Fourthly, you're asking forGod's help.
You're asking for God to dosomething on your behalf.
Fifthly, they always end withsome affirmation of trusting God
or his leadership over life,and then, finally, they end in
praise, which I think isinteresting.
So it starts with this addressto God, this complaint or

(45:51):
accusation, a confession, arequest for help, but they
always end with an affirmationof your trusting God and
praising God.
So let me give you an example.
This is like a famous lament atPsalm 13.
It says this I believe Davidwrote this how long, lord, will
you forget me forever?
How long will you hide yourface from me?

(46:12):
How long must I wrestle with mythoughts and, day after day,
have sorrow in my heart?
How long will my enemy triumphover me?
Look on me and answer.
Lord, my God, give light to myeyes or I will sleep in death.
And my enemy will say I haveovercome him and my foes will
rejoice when I fall, but I trustin your unfailing love.

(46:34):
My heart rejoices in yoursalvation.
I will sing the Lord's praise,for he has been good to me.
You guys see kind of that flowright.
So that's a lament, that's alament.
Now here's what's sointeresting and I learned this
from you, josiah You'veencountered some people who cast

(46:57):
shade on this practice oflamenting, which was new to me.
I've never encountered that.
So why is that?
Why do some people?
Why do you think that?
Is that some people mightresist this whole idea of?
Hey, as Christians, we need tolearn to lament the wrong that's
been done to us.

Speaker 3 (47:15):
Yeah, that's a good question.
So I think, to start I think itwas more than just a few people
I think is the culture, is thecultural waters I swam in when I
was younger, and I think,overall, I was reflecting on

(47:35):
this.
I think, overall, the notion isthat dwelling on the negative
aspects of something that wasdone wrong to me is a waste of
time, for multiple reasons.
That was the notion.
What are some of those reasons?
Well, one, it can sound likecomplaining.
We don't do that.
We don't complain becauseeverything's great, because
Jesus saved us, and there's noreason to complain, okay.

(47:57):
Another one would be we dismissthe notion of honesty in an
effort to not gossip, and Ithink that the motivation is
still the same.
It's like oh, it's negative,we're going to reject it, and if
we talk too much about it,we're essentially we're not

(48:18):
forgiving them, or we'regossiping and we're going to
reject that.
So being honest isn'tnecessarily helpful in this
frame of reference, right?
Because it only leads tonegativity and gossip and
slander.

Speaker 1 (48:33):
I could see where that certainly would be a
temptation.

Speaker 3 (48:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:37):
But it's not a reason to dismiss the whole thing?

Speaker 3 (48:39):
Yeah, exactly yeah.
And I think another reason whythe negativity gets
unnecessarily demonized is thatit could cause you to hate that
person even more, like if youdwell on what happened.
It will ultimately lead toruminating on how terrible that

(49:01):
person is, and so if you bringit up and you want to talk about
it, it's like, no, we'vealready forgiven them.
Jesus forgave them, we're goingto move on.
And so ultimately it boils downto dwelling on this in this way
, and being honest about it isgoing to produce negative

(49:21):
results.
And it could just be like anease thing as well.
It's easier to dismiss it allwithin Jesus forgave them.
I have to forgive them, I'mdone, and so there's a fear that
doing this work of lamenting isjust going to lead to bad

(49:44):
results.

Speaker 2 (49:47):
Man.
Okay, so would this be anoverstatement?
Because, as you and I havetalked about this dynamic, the
only label that I can think offor this type of behavior is, if
we had to label it, it'sspiritual bypassing.
Right, Spiritual bypassing isthe tendency to use spiritual

(50:11):
beliefs, practices or languageto avoid dealing with difficult
emotions.
To avoid dealing with difficultemotions, unresolved wounds,
painful realities.
So it involves suppressing ordismissing negative feelings in
favor of overly positive ordetached spiritual perspectives.
That's what bypassing is,spiritual bypassing, and it can

(50:31):
lead to denial, emotionalrepression, all the things we
were naming before of when wedon't deal with reality.
Here.
Here's the cost associated withthat you guys following.

Speaker 1 (50:44):
Yeah, yes, I do, and I agree.
What stuck out to me, though,as you were talking, josiah, is
that, under the three reasonsyou gave, there is something to
affirm in each of those, likethere's definitely like a nugget
of truth of it.
Yes, of course we don't want togossip and yes, of course we
don't want to dwell in like hardfeelings towards someone, and
so I would affirm some of thosemaybe underlying fears that are

(51:05):
motivating that.
But then our response, I think,is to say, okay, but these two
aren't equated.
Like just because you'reacknowledging the truth of what
happened and having hardconversations about hey, you
hurt me and here's how itimpacted me Like we can't just
equate those and throw out thebaby with the bathwater, right?
So let's do the hard work ofgoing.
No, that's not what we'retalking about.
Yes, yes, yes, let's be awareof falling into those ditches,

(51:28):
let's be aware of the red flags,of oh, you know what?
I think maybe I'm talking totoo many people about this and
it's starting to look kind oflike gossip, or I think I'm
dwelling on this too much, likeI think we do need to have our
discernment up, but, but I thinkit's on us to do the hard work
of going, yeah, but just sittingand acknowledging the reality
is not that.

Speaker 3 (51:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (51:46):
And it's actually a really good thing, and let's not
dismiss all of it out ofotherwise legitimate concerns.

Speaker 2 (51:52):
Yeah, I hear you and I think the nature of spiritual
bypassing is that you're using alegitimate truth in the wrong
way.
So, for instance, let's saysomeone experiences a death in
the family and you're like, well, you know they're in a better
place, right, in an effort tolike kind of get them over their
grief.
Yeah, that's using, maybe, atruth they probably are in a

(52:15):
better place to bypass someone'semotional state.
Okay, or forcing positivity inthe name of forgiveness.
You're still sitting with themessy impact that this person's
actions had on you and there'sstill pain there, but we can't
express that because you mightstart to hate that person.

(52:38):
We've really forgiven.
We remember we're.
You're bypassing reality, right, in the name of forgiveness.

Speaker 3 (52:45):
Yeah, and all these things that I named are like,
like you were saying well, yeah,there are shadow sides to some
of these things and and all ofthis can still be done in
immaturity.
So you can attempt to name awrong out of an immature place
and I think we'll probably getinto it into the next section.

(53:08):
But ultimately, lamenting isn'tdesigned to be done apart from
God's presence.
You do it with Jesus and youoffer those hurts and pains and
just like David David isn't, youknow, in the psalm he's naming
those things, he's mad at God.

(53:29):
He's expressing all of thosethings in God's presence and
then is able to offer thosethings to God and hand it over,
and so we're naming that.
No, it's like we agree.
Dwelling on the negativity andall those things can be a waste
of time if we're not doing it inthe presence of Jesus and in

(53:51):
the company of people who aremature Jesus followers who we
can trust.

Speaker 2 (53:55):
Yes, we are not saying this step is designed to
keep you stuck in bitterness andresentment.
No, that is not what we'resaying.
We're saying this is actuallythe first step towards honestly
forgiving someone for whatactually happened.
But my concern is that,especially in talking with you,
josiah, is that when we sort ofminimize or downplay or gloss

(54:16):
over some of these realities thehurts, the pains, et cetera
we're actually not able to fullyenter into forgiveness because
of that.
And in some, maybe churchcontexts that's actually
celebrated as a sign of strongfaith.
You know that I can just kindof like breeze past the hurts
and wrongs and just magicallyforgive this person and just

(54:36):
like naming the impact, it takessome emotional vulnerability.
I want to say that it takessome deeper faith to actually
sit in the pain of what actuallyhappened in Jesus's presence.

Speaker 3 (54:49):
Yeah, it takes some grit to be able to do that.

Speaker 1 (54:52):
Yeah it's hard.
I mean again like I lead aleadership intensive and this is
lament, is something that comesup every year, usually multiple
times, because people have hurtand pain that they're holding
onto, that they haven't faced.
And I just used this example acouple of weeks ago with someone
who was sort of unearthing somemaybe unresolved hurt or pain
or conflict, and I said, okay,think about it this way it's

(55:14):
like you're sitting in a room,maybe you're sitting in your
office at home and you hearsomething break, or like shatter
in the other room, maybe you'reworking from home and your
four-year-old is running aroundand you know that there's like
some really fancy pottery andyou hear it shatter and you're
like, oh gosh, I don't evenwanna go look at it.
Like I just don't right, like it, like I just don't right, like

(55:43):
I don't even want to acknowledgeit.
And then picture standing up,walking out the door and looking
at the damage.
Right, it's like you're, it'slike you're facing it and you're
, you're, you're looking at whathappened.
It takes some like bracingyourself, right, like it's
easier just to like putheadphones on and be telling
like it didn't happen.
But I said, this is kind oflike what you're doing here.
You're, you're looking at itand it is hard.
It is hard, but it's only whenyou look at it that you can
begin to heal and um and movethrough it.

Speaker 3 (56:03):
Yeah, yeah, and I think that that's a great
analogy, because the underlyingsome of these reasons that I
think people would push back isfeel like you're making more of
it than it is.
They would see it as that.
There there's a fear of likewe're making more of it than it
is.
They would see it as thatthere's a fear of like we're
making more of it than it is.
So I can dismiss it, but inreality, what you're doing is

(56:25):
you're actually making it lessthan it is and you're
proportionately limiting howmuch healing you can experience
when you're not able to name itwith Jesus, that's a really good
point.

Speaker 2 (56:38):
Yeah.
So maybe combining some of ourpoints together, like what,
katie, you were saying hey, ifsomeone has this concern, there
might be something legitimate toaffirm, so you go, okay, but
that's not what we're talkingabout.
Hey, we're not talking aboutnormalizing gossip or slander
here.
That's not what we're saying.
And the other pivot is to go isto name, but here's the work
that also does.
You're blocking this fromtaking place, so not this.

(57:01):
And if we did that, here's whatit would lead to.
The other thing I would justsay is, like we see lament all
over the New Testament.
One frame of reference Isometimes hear is well, david
was Old Testament, but we nowhave been saved by Jesus, so
this is a whole differentballgame.
Well, it's interesting becauseJesus lamented.
You know, jesus cries on thecross my God, my God, why have

(57:23):
you forsaken me?
Which was a lament Psalm, youknow.

Speaker 1 (57:26):
Psalm 22.

Speaker 2 (57:29):
He wept over Jerusalem.
As he's approaching Jerusalemand grieving their lack of
repentance, he weeps over it.
He weeps at his friendLazarus's tomb, right.
In fact, if we pick up withthat story, it's not just that
Jesus lamented, but he createdconditions for other people to
lament the pain and brokennessin the world, like in John 11,

(57:49):
when his friend Lazarus died.
And then we also see the NewTestament church lamenting Like
the first martyr was Stephen inActs 8.
And we were told that manydevout men buried Stephen and
mourned deeply for him.
Huh, interesting.
Oh, death, where's your sting?
Well, clearly stung a littlebit.
Yeah, because we haven'texperienced the resurrection yet

(58:11):
.
The early church mourns forJames in Acts 12,.
He was beheaded.
Paul laments over his fellowIsraelites and their
stubbornness and refusal toembrace the Messiah in Romans 9.
He also grieves over hisdeparture with the church in
Ephesus when he's going toJerusalem.
So it's really all over theplace.

(58:34):
So I guess what you're hearingus say is so far, what you've
heard us say is hey, it's reallyimportant to get your journal
out and name what actuallyhappened with as much honesty
and specificity as you can, asyou can, and then name, create
some space to name.
Here's how that hurt.
Here's the impact it happenedon me and we've done this short

(58:55):
detour.
Now to go.
Lament is okay, like it's abiblical thing that we're
invited to do, and it's actuallya sign of faith to bring this
in, to express this grief to Godin prayer and be open to his
healing.
Yeah, yeah, love it.
And that leads to probably thefinal thing I think we should
talk about, which is like whatin the world does it look to be

(59:16):
open to Jesus providing healingto you?
In other words, what does itlook like to write a lament out
and then sit with that lament inJesus's presence, asking him to
heal the broken pieces and healthe pain that you've
experienced along the way?

Speaker 1 (59:35):
Yeah, I can think of a few different times in my life
where I've sat with Jesus inthe middle of hurt and pain, and
what I remember from thosemoments is that I feel like I
sensed his presence morestrongly than I had at almost
any other point in my life.
That's what I remember.
When I look back at thosemoments, like I always, you know

(59:57):
, I know he's always there, butthere was something unique about
sitting with God in pain, inbrokenness, in hurt, that I
really felt his grace morepowerfully than I had in other
times, and it's something Ican't totally explain.
Obviously it is.
Those are hard times and it'snot like he removes the pain or

(01:00:18):
hardship, like oh poof, you'refine, go, go about your day, but
he meets us in the midst of itand he carries us and I think
that's a really beautiful thingand you don't get that if you
don't, if you don't meet himthere.

Speaker 2 (01:00:31):
Right, yeah, you've got to like write out the lament
and then sit in Jesus'spresence and then just see what
Jesus might, how Jesus mightshow up and he might affirm the
pain that you experienced.
He might reveal his own heart,that he grieves what happened to
you.
I don't know, it's kind of upto Jesus to show up in a way

(01:00:52):
that's unique to you in thesituation.
But I can tell you in my ownlife that I've experienced this
many times and often the waythat Jesus shows up for me
actually changes my memory ofwhat happened in a way that's
redemptive.
So let me give you just acouple examples and, katie, I've
shared a few of these with yourmom.
We've been talking about thisbefore, but I'll give you two

(01:01:15):
examples.
One example would be I, fouryears into being on staff,
received a promotion to becomelike the associate lead pastor,
sort of the executive pastor,and we announced that to the
congregation, so they'd knowlike a change in responsibility,
congregation.

(01:01:39):
So they'd know like a change inresponsibility.
And at at the first service itwas announced um, someone stood
up and everybody then stood upand kind of gave me like a
standing ovation, like yes, weagree with this, and whatever In
between the two bigger services.
Another staff member came up tome who was now.
We went from peer to me beinghis boss, so there's some
dynamics at play there.
He said hey, I saw you got astanding ovation.

(01:02:01):
I said yeah, I noticed that too.
And he said well, just remember, it only takes one person to
stand up and then everybody elsefeels obligated to yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:02:10):
That's rude, okay, cool.

Speaker 2 (01:02:11):
Thanks, yeah, Okay, cool, Thanks.
So the next morning I waspraying and I just sensed this
is hard to explain, it's hard totalk about, like the inner
movements of the spirit and howJesus is showing up and
communicating.
But I just got this impressionlike, hey, you experienced a
hurt and pain yesterday that Iwant to talk to you about and

(01:02:32):
that conversation, that moment,hey, it only takes one person to
stand up.
Everybody else feels obligated.
She came back to me and Isensed Jesus saying you know he
was right, it only takes oneperson to stand up and everybody
else then feels obligated to.
And at that point I'm feelinglike I'm like writing this in my

(01:02:55):
journal Okay, this hurts.
You're like are you trying tohurt my?

Speaker 1 (01:02:58):
hands Thanks.

Speaker 2 (01:02:59):
And Jesus said so let's go back to that moment and
see who stood up first.
And so I'm on the stage, kindof imagining the announcement,
like replaying that moment, andI look out into the audience and
I see Jesus in the front rowand he stands up first and it
was like this is my hearttowards you, mac, this, yes, it

(01:03:22):
only takes, but I'm the one whostood up and everybody else is
following my lead here and now,when I think about that moment,
like that's what I remember, Idon't remember the stupid
comment, hurtful comment.
I just remember, like now, godactually used that to change the
hurt into an affirmation, avalidation of his heart in that

(01:03:44):
moment.

Speaker 1 (01:03:44):
That's really cool.

Speaker 2 (01:03:45):
I remember another one this is, I've got a lot of
these but another one was Iremember it was like we had
these monthly preaching meetingsand this one happened to fall
on a day right after I got donepreaching and the lead pastor
led those meetings and ended upkind of focusing on the ways

(01:04:06):
that I'm not good at speaking.
That felt like a big throughline in the meeting.
I'll spare the details of allthat was communicated, but it
hurt and it wasn't great.
And I remember the next day,like later that week, again in
prayer, and I just sensed Jesussaying, hey, there was something

(01:04:26):
that caused you pain and hurt.
And I said, yep, I rememberthat.
Like that one stung when youpour your heart out and give
your best in a sermon, thenyou're just ripped a new one.
You know that's not fun.
Anyway.
So, similar to the first one, Isensed Jesus just saying let's
go back to that moment, which ishard.
Remember this is hard, like togo back to a moment where you

(01:04:48):
experience pain, like it's notfun.
I'd rather just move on.
But I'm back in, like theconference room, and I see the
lead pastor beginning to talkand looking at me and his face
was a little bit red and I couldtell he was getting amped up.
And all of a sudden I justsensed Jesus coming around
behind me and closing, likeputting his hands over my ears,

(01:05:13):
and so I see this person talkingand using big gestures and all
this stuff, but I can't hearanything, anything and I just
sit there for a bit and thenthat little like monologue goes
away and then I sense Jesustaking his hands away from my
ears and then he whispered in myear none of that was for you

(01:05:34):
and none of that was actuallyabout you.
So so that's what I'm.
I guess I'm saying that's whatI mean when we talk about
actually writing out a lament.
Here's the pain I experienced.
I have no idea how Jesus willshow up for you.
I don't.
This is like impression stuff.
This is using my imagination,like just trying to follow, like

(01:05:58):
I sense Jesus is sayingsomething.
But I do think there are somethrough lines that I would maybe
pull the thread on.
One is almost all the time itgoes back, it involves
re-imagining what happened inlight of Jesus's presence in the
room that make sense.
Oftentimes I feel prompted togo back to the hurtful incident,

(01:06:18):
the hurtful moment, but thistime where I at first thought
Jesus was absent and I'm justlike the recipient of pain
typically for me I noticed Jesusreveals his presence in a way
that reframes that pain to bringhealing and sometimes even
affirmation.

Speaker 1 (01:06:36):
Yeah, what I love about those two examples.
I love a lot about them, butone thing that sticks out to me
is that they so they weresignificant, right, but I'm
guessing they weren't in likeyour top five or even top 10
hurtful moments of your life.
They were just.
They strike me as kind ofeveryday things that happened
that I could see it being reallyeasy to brush past.
They were just.
They strike me as kind ofeveryday things that happened
that I could see it being reallyeasy to brush past, like, oh,

(01:06:59):
that was annoying.

Speaker 2 (01:07:00):
Yes, that was frustrating.

Speaker 1 (01:07:02):
But I know you.
I know you have a kind of adaily practice of reviewing your
day with God and what strikesme is how powerful it is that
God wants us to meet us, eventhose small, seemingly maybe
insignificant moments of hurtand pain, and provide his
healing there.
Like when we talk aboutforgiveness, I think my mind so
often goes to like the big ones,like the big deep relational

(01:07:23):
conflicts.
Actually, I just had aconversation with someone who's
been listening to the series onforgiveness.
She goes to our church and shesaid, hey, I've been having a
conflict with a coworker andI've been stuck in how to move
forward and how to talk to herand all of that.
And then I listened to yourepisode on forgiveness and I
realized, huh, I'm actuallysitting on some unforgiveness
here and it's like, again, not ahuge deal, it's not like there

(01:07:46):
was anything deeply wounding,but I think it can be really,
really powerful to justacknowledge those seemingly
somewhat insignificant instancesand allowing Jesus to meet them
in there.
I think that those are reallycool stories.

Speaker 3 (01:07:59):
I just see this step as the evidence of God's agency
within the matter, because it'sreally.
It would be easy to look onpaper.
Of all the quote unquote steps,here's step one in
unforgiveness or step one toforgiving.
Step two, step three, those areall things we can do, quote
unquote, on our own, and all ofthat is sort of setting the

(01:08:24):
stage for Jesus being able tobring healing, which is
ultimately what's going to makethe difference.
Yes, I mean think about evensome of the big stories of
forgiveness that we were naming.
At the beginning of each ofthese episodes there was an
agency piece of like hey, we'rewilling to take the step out,

(01:08:45):
but there's a lot of trust thatJesus can actually heal things.
Yeah, and you have to bewilling I shouldn't say you have
to.
This, to me, is the mostenticing invitation into all of
this is that I could actuallyexperience true healing with
Jesus, not only for my own hurts, but be a part of someone

(01:09:09):
else's story in receivinghealing.
And it invites Jesus not onlyinto the process but to be.
The whole point of the processis that Jesus could bring
healing and make things right.

Speaker 2 (01:09:20):
Yeah, and once you receive that healing, you know,
next episode we're going to talkabout the like what does it
actually look like to extendforgiveness?
So we're going to walk througha process for that, but notice
how much easier it becomes.
Like the staff member who madethat stupid comment Well, now
it's turned into an affirmationand it's been healed and so I

(01:09:44):
don't have to pretend he didn't.
But now I can forgive that and,if anything, my motive is to go
what's in you that would makeyou say something like that?
You know, like now, all of asudden, I'm able to kind of get
curious about what's going on inyou that would make you say
something like that.
You know, like now, all of asudden, I'm able to kind of get
curious about what's going on inyou that needs transformation
here or go back to the preachingone.
It's kind of the same thing.
Like I no longer need to hearwhat you said.

(01:10:06):
Jesus is going to block thatout, so I can forgive you for
but it's not really about me.
What's going on for you?
You know what I mean.
And all of a sudden, that's ashift.
That's a shift.
It makes the act of forgivenessso much easier because we're
doing it from a healed andtransformed place.

Speaker 3 (01:10:23):
Yeah, and just remember the words of Jesus and
maybe this helps bring light asto what he meant that if you
don't forgive others, yourheavenly father won't forgive
you.
Is that a conditional promiseor is it a revealing of how
reality works, that you,stepping into the process of

(01:10:44):
forgiving others, you in turnget to experience forgiveness
and healing, and that personalso does too.
That it flows out of you.

Speaker 2 (01:10:53):
Yeah, yeah, and that just provoked something for me,
josiah.
So I don't know if this is theright place to go or not, but I
just have this impression rightnow that maybe there's someone
listening and the thing you needto write down in your journal
and the thing that you need tosay here's the impact, and the
lament isn't what someone elsedid to you, it's what you did to

(01:11:15):
you.
And but similarly, I wanna say,if you create space to sit with
Jesus and lament your actions,it's impact.
I won't, I would not besurprised if Jesus shows up in
some way to reveal his love andhis grace and his mercy and
forgiveness in a way thatcompletely reframes it for you

(01:11:37):
and that's grace.
All right, praxis time.
We always want to end ourepisodes by going okay, we're
not just listening to some funcontent as great as both of you
are at talking, we actually wantto do some things.
And actually today, out of allthe episodes, this flows pretty

(01:12:01):
naturally from our conversation,so let's just kind of lay it
out there.

Speaker 3 (01:12:04):
Kind of three practices today yeah, the three
practices are the three steps wenamed.
But, yeah, so, first step,identify a wrong you've
experienced and journal out whathappened.
This can be big, maybe you'vegot a big one you're sitting on
and you've been avoiding.
Then listen to the Spirit'sleading and go there.

(01:12:24):
It could be something small,like Katie you were mentioning
that, hey, that some things canbe wounding but that they seem
insignificant.
But there's still areas whereJesus wants to bring healing.
And remember this takes courage.
But we're inviting you to takethe step of writing it down and

(01:12:46):
maybe it's an itemized list, Idon't know.
Whatever is going to work thebest for you, but writing it
down allows us to do the work ofnot minimizing or exaggerating.
We're literally writing it down, factually.
This is what happened.
So-and-so said this to me.
This is how I felt after that,and just as itemized and as

(01:13:08):
practical and detailed as youcan, so that you can move on to
the next step, which is yeah,and then I would say, write out
a prayer of lament, which issomething we've talked about,
and Mackie referenced the Psalms.

Speaker 1 (01:13:24):
I think the Psalms are a great place to start,
sometimes when you don't knowwhere to start and you are
having a hard time putting wordsto something, I think there's
something really powerful aboutlooking to someone else's words,
like the Psalm that you read.
I think it can give voice tosomething that you aren't fully
able to articulate, and I'veexperienced that myself.
But then go from there andwrite out your own prayer of

(01:13:45):
lament.
We have a resource on ourwebsite.
If you go to crosspointwcom andthen resources, you'll see a
resource that actually walks youthrough the steps that Mac
talked about for writing alament.
So addressing God, writing outyour complaint against God,
against yourself, against others, confessing your need for God's
grace and forgiveness in yourlife, asking God for help,

(01:14:07):
affirming your trust in God andthen a praise to God what praise
you can offer after God showsup.
I think that those steps arereally helpful.
If you're just going okay, Iwanna do this, but I don't know
exactly how I would encourageyou to go through that resource
and actually follow those stepsand again, write it down.
Don't just think them, butwrite it down, and then you can

(01:14:27):
come back to it and pray throughit as often as you need to.

Speaker 2 (01:14:31):
Yeah, and you can do those first steps in Jesus's
presence, asking him to guideyou.
So you know, writing out, hey,here's what happened and here's
the impact it had on me, andasking Jesus to guide you as you
write this lament as honestly,so that you're expressing
yourself as honestly as you can.
But then the third practice isjust to ask Jesus to speak to

(01:14:52):
your pain.
And again, I know that some ofthe stories I've shared of how
Jesus has done that in my lifeprobably feel a little bit
mysterious and it's hard toexplain how that will happen.
But I just believe the promisein the New Testament when you
seek, you'll find.
And I genuinely believe thatwhen you create space to be with
Jesus in your pain, he has away of showing up and it may not

(01:15:13):
show up the way you createspace to be with Jesus in your
pain.
He has a way of showing up andit may not show up the way you
expect him to.
He may not show up the way youexpect him to.
He may not even show up rightaway.
It might require you to sit inhis presence for an extended
period of time or a series oftimes until you sense what Jesus
might have to say Don't getdiscouraged.
Oftentimes, when we aren'tgetting something specific in
prayer, we feel like, well,what's the point?

(01:15:34):
And then we give up.
And I find in those momentssometimes those are the exact
moments where my spiritualdirector says if you're not
getting anything in prayer,don't leave five minutes before
the miracle happens.
We're not getting something outof prayer.
Our tendency is to abort and belike, all right, well, I'm
going to go back to living mylife.
No, no, no.
There's something about stayingwith it, knowing that it will

(01:15:55):
happen in Jesus's way and inJesus's timing, and trust him
with that.

Speaker 3 (01:15:58):
Yeah, I remember the silent prayer retreat we've been
going the last several years.
It's four days of not talkingand praying and attempting to
like meet with Jesus in thisspace imaginatively.
It wasn't until the lastsession in which I felt like
there was something significanthappen, and in years past I'd

(01:16:22):
been a little discouraged.
But so anyway, it just remindedme of that, as you were saying.

Speaker 2 (01:16:27):
You experienced that, like the perseverance and
steadfastness of sticking withit, god showed up more near the
end than right away at thebeginning.

Speaker 1 (01:16:34):
Yeah, and that's what sticks out to me again from
your examples that you shared.
Mac, like you wouldn't haveexperienced that healing that
Jesus wanted to give you if youdidn't carve out time really
each day to reflect on that andto go back to it.

Speaker 2 (01:16:45):
Yeah, in fact, with both of those moments I don't
even think I was aware thatthat's something.
I mean, if you had asked me,yeah, but it was actually.
I sensed Jesus prompting me togo.
There's a hurt or wound that Iwant to talk to you about.

Speaker 3 (01:16:58):
Yeah, Well, awesome.
Thanks for joining us today,everybody.
We hope you've enjoyed this andthat this is inspiring and
helpful to you in your own walkwith Jesus.
Next time, we're going to lookat the next step, or what we
would say is like the step inthe process of extending
forgiveness, which is toactually forgive the other

(01:17:18):
person, having acknowledged whathappened, its impact on you,
and you've lamented all that andcreated space for Jesus to meet
you and to bring healing.
The next step is to literallyextend forgiveness.
So what does that look like?
We're going to jump into it andwe're excited to go over with
you.

Speaker 2 (01:17:37):
Praxis is recorded and produced at Crosspoint
Community Church.
You can find out more about theshow and our church at
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If you have any questions,comments or have any suggestions
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(01:17:58):
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