Navigating Grief During the Holidays

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Licensed therapist Terri Koschnick joins us for a heartfelt discussion on navigating grief during the holiday season. With over 30 years of experience, Terri offers her invaluable insights into managing the complex emotions that arise during this time. We begin on a lighthearted note, followed by an episode filled with empathy, practical advice, and the reminder that grief, though intensified during the holidays, is a natural response to loss.

As we explore the unpredictability of grief, Terri guides us in recognizing various types of loss, from the passing of loved ones to significant life changes. We delve into the therapeutic benefits of journaling, allowing emotions to be processed and triggers managed. Through personal stories, we highlight the importance of self-care, setting boundaries, and seeking a supportive community. Terri also emphasizes the vital role of faith in navigating grief, reminding us that emotions like sadness and anger are not contrary to spiritual strength.

The episode offers practical advice for handling holiday gatherings, encouraging listeners to set boundaries and find compassionate support. We discuss the need for self-awareness and patience, particularly during this emotionally challenging time. With Terri's guidance, learn how to embrace grief with grace and find solace in faith, all while equipping yourself with tools for healing. Whether you're facing grief yourself or supporting someone who is, this episode provides the understanding and strategies needed to navigate the holiday season thoughtfully and compassionately.

Episode Transcript

Mac (00:02):
Welcome to Praxis, a podcast where we explore how to
practice and embody the way ofJesus in our everyday lives.
Thanks so much for taking thetime to listen.
So for today, we put together abonus episode.
Last year, right around thistime, we did an episode on the
topic of boundaries with amember of our congregation,
terry Koschnik.
Terry is a licensed therapistwho has been providing

(00:25):
counseling for over 30 years, soshe's got creds, as the kids
would say these days.
We had so much fun doing thatepisode that we've been looking
for an excuse to have her backever since, and that moment has
now come.
As a pastor, I've noticed that,while the holidays are supposed

(00:46):
to be a time of joy andcelebration, a time of great
excitement for many people, theyexperience the exact opposite.
Instead of an increase in joyand celebration, they experience
an increase in grief andsadness.
For lots of people, theholidays can be a particularly
challenging season, so we wantto create some space to talk

(01:08):
about why that is and how tonavigate it.
How do we navigate grief duringthe holiday season?
That's the question, and we'veinvited Terry to join us as a
mental health professional whohas extensive experience helping
people do this very thingexperience helping people do
this very thing.

(01:28):
So our hope and prayer is thatthis episode would be helpful
and instructive for you.
Whatever burdens you might becarrying with you into this
holiday season, let's get intoit.

Katie (01:48):
Hey everyone, my name is Katie.

Mac (01:50):
And I'm Mac.

Katie (01:51):
Welcome to Praxis.
We're sitting here today with aspecial guest by the name of
Terry Koschnik, who you may ormay not know is my mom.

Mac (02:03):
I'm sitting, I feel like it's an Italian sandwich.
You're both Italian?
Yes, we are, and I'm stuckbetween you two.
I was trying to think ofsomething quirky to say, but
nothing came.

Katie (02:12):
Okay, so this is the second time that we've had her
on the podcast to talk about amental health related topic, so
that's fun.
If you spend much time aroundCrosspoint, you've likely heard
her speak either from the stageor in a mental health workshop
or leading a Bible study.
She's been here for many yearsand led many things right, yep.

(02:34):
Just recently she was part of apanel for a sermon dealing on
anger in the way of Jesus, howto, kind of like reckon with our
anger and forgiveness in theway of Jesus.
But you may also know she'sbeen a licensed marriage and
family therapist for about 30years.
Is that right, yep 30?

Terri (02:53):
years, yeah, 30 years.

Katie (02:56):
And she's helped tons of people in that role.
Tons and tons of people.
I hear stories all the time,just kind of living in town here
, from people who will just comeup to me at the grocery store
or whatever and say is your momTerry?
And then they usually tell meoh, you look so much like her.
And then the second thing isalways your mom has changed my
life.
Like no joke.
I cannot tell you how manytimes I've heard that.
That's nice yeah.

(03:17):
So she has a lot of wisdom, andI love these conversations
because I think they really helpus integrate our faith with a
very important topic of mentalhealth, which is something that
affects all of us on a regularbasis.

Mac (03:30):
I have a question for you too.
Let's have a little fun.
Okay, here's my question whatis a funny memory that you two
share together that still makesyou giggle when you think about
it?

Terri (03:44):
Oh, that's a funny thing At the holidays or anytime,
anytime.

Katie (03:49):
I'm bad at thinking on the spot.

Mac (03:52):
Well, you just shared one involving a popsicle.

Katie (03:55):
Oh yeah.

Mac (03:56):
And you were laughing hysterically as you told it.

Terri (03:59):
Okay, I think I was kind of a funny mom, wasn't I?
Because I did kind of sillystuff all the time.
What do you remember?
I was a little more out there.

Katie (04:08):
You kept life interesting , I think I did, she had okay,
well, on the popsicle.
On the popsicle topic, my momhad an addiction to popsicles,
and it was not just anypopsicles, it was Blue Bunny it
was.

Terri (04:21):
Blue Bunny Something, something.

Katie (04:26):
It was a very specific kind and she had popsicle
pajamas that she wore.

Mac (04:28):
Oh wow, this was a real thing when you said, addiction
like that's what led to hercareer in mental health.

Katie (04:33):
And if you know the police station downtown
Oconomowoc, you guys know wherethe police station is.
Well, that wasn't always apolice station.
That used to be a century, andfor a while it was Super Saver,
super Saver, yeah.
And so my mom would shop therewhen I was a kid and go there
every week and she always gother popsicles, except one day

(04:53):
her popsicles were not in stockanymore, and if you know my mom,
she's tends to be quiteassertive, really.
So she found the man in chargeof stocking the fridges.

Terri (05:04):
It would be the refrigerator manager, the
refrigerator manager.

Katie (05:07):
So she finds the refrigerator manager and tells
him we have a problem.
This is the only reason I comehere, which I don't know.
If that's actually true, it wastrue, okay.
I eat these blueberry popsiclesand yes, you have other
popsicles, I see that, but Ineed this kind and they're not
here.
So what's happening?
Like for listen-free?

(05:28):
And he responds simply well,yeah, we don't order those
anymore, like we don't, justsomething that they-.
They're gone.
We don't carry those.
Yeah, but that was not asufficient answer, and so by the
end of that conversation heagreed to special order them and
keep them in the back for you.

Terri (05:45):
He special ordered them for two years.
For me, two years, that'samazing, and I was very happy
Every time we went groceryshopping.

Katie (05:51):
We would have to take a special trip to the back freezer
and find our friend.

Terri (05:55):
I was very appreciative.
Yes, I did like my popsicles.

Mac (05:59):
So, you not only had a popsicle addiction, but you also
appear to be a pretty goodnegotiator.

Terri (06:06):
Yes, I would say that's a very good compliment, and I
think, katie, I'm surprised youremember that.
Do you remember me having thatbig talk in the refrigerator
aisle that I need my popsicles?
Yeah, I latch onto certainthings, don't I?

Katie (06:23):
But it always works out.

Terri (06:24):
It does work out nicely.
It's a good memory.

Mac (06:27):
Well, speaking of popsicles , we're going to do a bonus
episode today on the topic ofnavigating grief during the
holidays, and it really startswith this observation, and I
know all three of us havenoticed this While the holidays
are supposed to be a season ofjoy and celebration, a time of

(06:49):
great excitement, many peopledon't experience it that way.
They experience the oppositeit's a time of sadness and
disappointment and pain.
And so it seems to us thatgrief actually gets amplified
during the holidays.
For many people, During theholidays, grief is exacerbated
and felt in a heightened andintensified way.
And maybe I should just give adefinition of grief.

(07:10):
When I say grief, I'm referringto a normal response to the
experience of loss.
So grief is a normal responseto the experience of loss.
Grief comes with the experienceof any kind of loss We'll get
into this more but it's promptedby loss.
It's normal.
It doesn't mean there'ssomething wrong with you.
I often say that grief is theprice we pay for love.

(07:31):
It's just an indication thatwe've loved something and now
that is no longer there.
None of us like grief.
Grief is always accompanied bypain and, unless you're a
masochist, most of us prefer toavoid pain.
And yet and this is why we'redoing this episode grief is a
necessary part of the healingprocess.
So, even though grief ispainful and uncomfortable, the

(07:54):
solution isn't to avoid it.
It's to face it and engage itin productive ways.
So I really mean this.
We've been praying over thispodcast.
Our hope and prayer today isthat this conversation would
help you do that.
We hope not only to acknowledgeand normalize this reality of
grief during the holidays, butalso help you navigate it in a

(08:14):
way that contributes to yourhealing.
So let's kind of get into it.
Let's just start with why isthis?
Why is it that this time of theyear, as we approach
Thanksgiving and the month ofDecember and Christmas and New
Year's, why is it that duringthe holidays, we tend to
experience more grief and painrather than less?

(08:36):
Why is it that grief isamplified during this time of
the?

Katie (08:39):
Yeah, I think one reason I would maybe name by saying
that any loss can be felt duringthe holidays, and what I mean
by that is this I think thisseason can be all about joy.
Right, we talk a lot about joy,we sing about joy, we come

(08:59):
together with family and friends, we celebrate, we eat lots of
cookies, so we expect toexperience joy at Christmas, but
then I think that what thatmeans is that anything that gets
in the way of feeling that waybecomes exposed.
So when this happens, wediscover that there's almost
like a gap between what I shouldbe experiencing and what I am

(09:21):
experiencing.
I should be experiencing joyand what I am experiencing.
I should be experiencing joy,but I'm not able to, and the
reason for my inability toexperience that joy could be any
number of things.
Most common one, I think, thatcomes to mind for me is death of
a loved one.
Right, when I think about whypeople grieve around the
holidays, it's commonly becausethey've lost someone.

(09:43):
A couple of years ago, in 2020,we lost my grandpa, my mom's
dad, and celebrating Christmaswas a big part of our life with
him, and so his absence felt theloudest when we were doing all
of the things that we had donein previous years, in the same
way as we had done them, onlythis time he wasn't there.

Mac (10:01):
Yeah, he normally would have been involved in those very
things and you have memoriesconnected to previous years and
now that absence is felt.

Katie (10:08):
Yes, Yep, yep.
So I think that's a reallycommon reason for feeling grief
this time of year.
But then another reason couldbe the loss of someone, not
through death but through, maybelike the end of a relationship,
maybe divorce or some othertype of relational fallout.
I think this can lead to asimilar type of grief as losing
someone through death.
We also might be feeling griefabout life changes.

(10:29):
Maybe kids have left home orrecently gotten married and so
they aren't present in the sameway that they used to be.
In previous years you might bestruggling with, like, say,
infertility or a miscarriage.
Maybe you thought you'd have achild by this time of year and
even had plans for whatChristmas would look like with a
new baby.
And here you are in.
That dream didn't pan out.
I know many people who havebeen there and are there now.

Mac (10:52):
A.
Strange relationships come tomind, because there's like a
togetherness sort of at theholidays You're with your family
.
If you're estranged from yourfamily, that can be felt really
acutely.
Oh yeah, Yep, yep.

Katie (11:05):
Loss of a job, right, let's think of a career change.
Maybe you have to move to a newplace where you don't really
have your bearings at.
You don't have your people.

Mac (11:12):
Doesn't feel like home.

Katie (11:13):
Doesn't feel like home.
Yep, you could be grieving lossof health.
Maybe you recently receivednews of a diagnosis or some kind
of medical setback and you'rewondering what does this mean?
So lots and lots of reasons.
I think we could be feelinggrief around the holidays.
Any kind of loss or changecould keep us from feeling the
way that we think we should feel.

Mac (11:32):
So maybe to summarize what I've heard you contribute is
grief is broader than the lossof a loved one.
It can be connected to lots ofthings.
So there's just plenty ofopportunity to feel loss, and
it's in this season that's.
There's this expectation of joy, and so anything that's
blocking that gets exposedduring the season.

Terri (11:55):
That's good.
Another reason is Can I say onemore thing?

Mac (12:00):
before we jump ahead is I've noticed a weird phenomena.
I would say I've done the mostamount of funerals in December
and I also think that it can bea particularly challenging
season.
If that loss occurred duringthis season and I'm no stranger

(12:21):
to this this happened on my sideof the family.
My mom's dad died on Christmas.
Day at 51 years of age Now.
He hadn't taken care of himself.
He was an alcoholic for a bigpart of his life.
It was in the day and age wherepeople smoked a lot, so he had

(12:41):
a lot of things that were justworking against him.
But he came to faith in Jesus,got sober, rededicated.
His life was doing some amazingthings and, yeah, 51 years old,
christmas day celebrated withthe family, started not to feel
great, went to lay down and thatwas it and I was too young to
remember.
But obviously that's prettydisruptive and I still notice

(13:03):
that on Christmas day there's ahorrible memory attached for
people in my family.
That's just difficult Yearslater.
So this was not in closeproximity, but I was very close
to my grandma on my dad's sideand she ended up dying on the
26th of December and we saw itcoming Like she was in her
nineties.
She lived an amazing life andhealth was gradually declining,

(13:29):
but again right at that, likekind of when families together.

Terri (13:31):
You know what I mean Absolutely, and because I do
know your lovely mother, I'vetalked to her about this that
Christmas was really hard forher for a long time and it still
kind of is.
I mean, there's that memory ofher father and there's this
sense of grief that can come upon her at any time during this

(13:51):
holiday.
It's been really hard for yourmom and I think that would be
one of the hardest things.
So thank you for naming that.
I think of Katie, your dad'smom, Cece, losing her mother
around Christmas.
So I know Christmas is a reallysentimental time for Grandma
Cece, who lost her mother aroundChristmas time.

(14:14):
So that's a really good point,Mac, that you bring up.

Mac (14:17):
I was talking to a woman in our congregation recently, just
this past Sunday, and she losther son unexpectedly last year
around this time and I did thefuneral for her and her daughter
or her granddaughter, and I hada check-in with her.
Hey, the holidays are coming up.
I know this is going to be hard, and she said the anniversary

(14:41):
of his death falls on the 27thof November, which is the day
before Thanksgiving.
I'm really feeling that, andthe following year so not this
year, but the next year we'redreading it because it falls on
Thanksgiving itself.
So I just think this is normal.
It's normal to feel an extradegree of sadness and loss at

(15:03):
the holidays, especially when itfalls on these days where, like
, death shouldn't be part ofthese moments.

Terri (15:09):
That's right.
That's right.
That's a really good point.
And I think the next reasongrief is unpredictable what
you're talking about, mac andKatie is it can come up on you
at any minute.
That you don't recognize whenthat grief can emerge.
And if I could just even definegrief in the sense of it feels

(15:37):
like a vague term to me, but ifwe look at grief, I think of the
different stages where we canhave, when we lose someone or
have a loss.
It's shock, it's denial, it'sbargaining, it's depression, but
it's also anger.
So we need to name what grief is, because people can be really

(16:03):
angry it can look very differentit can look different and anger
can be a very big part of grief, Recognizing there is no one
way, a right way or predictableway to express grief, so give
yourself permission to expressgrief in the emotion that it is.
So I have my client's journalJournal is powerful because it

(16:28):
calms down the amygdala, but italso causes the right and left
hemisphere of the brain to talkto each other.

Mac (16:35):
That's good.

Terri (16:35):
That you can name it, you can express what it is.
But if you are journaling, yourbrain is processing the emotion
and the emotion can be anything.
Your brain is processing theemotion and the emotion can be
anything.
It can be confusion, anger,sadness.
Some clients go through rage ofwhy did this happen?
And if, at Christmas, with atrigger, you can go back into a

(17:00):
state that you can even say Ithought, I've worked through
this.
But different stages of griefare revisited.
You will revisit, you don'tmove through it and then it's
over.
So you have to give yourselfpermission to say here's where I
am.
And in your mind, if you havejournaled the feelings,
recognize what the feelings are.
A big thing that we want tolook at to prevent the

(17:28):
unpredictable, if you will,would be to identify what
triggers you're going to come upon, what will be a trigger and
in those triggers, what memory,what feeling is that going to
provoke?
I think one thing that's reallyhard I've seen this with my
mother-in-law, your grandma iswhen she pulls out the ornaments
every year she cries and criesremembering her mother.
Her mother gave her an ornamentevery year.

(17:48):
So it's a time for mymother-in-law pulls out all the
ornaments, looks at him andcries, anticipating there's
going to be a lot of emotion.
She sits with that emotion.
She remembers her mother.
There are certain ornamentsthat really trigger that, but
she's aware so she'll sit withthat, but she expects it.
I want, if you're out there andyou're listening and you're

(18:11):
thinking this is going to besuch a hard Christmas or
Thanksgiving, approach it withjournaling compassion, but also
identify what your triggers aregoing to be.
It could be like for mymother-in-law ornaments.
It could be opening presents.
We have a strong tradition ofopening presents and then my

(18:32):
grandpa or your grandpa, my dad,would get really funny when he
would open presents.
So don't you kind of miss himin that experience of opening
presents yeah, I think that'sreally good that there.

Mac (18:43):
There it comes in a variety of forms.
Grief seems to be non-linear,like it's not this clean process
that you can just kind ofpredictably walk through.
It's often way slower than wewant it to be and there's like
two steps forward, one step backand there's all these different
faces that grief can wear,right From sadness to anger to

(19:06):
depression and so on.
And then there's these griefattacks, often prompted by a
trigger of some kind.
And I hear you saying it's goodto grow in our awareness of
what those triggers are so we'reless surprised by them.
I also want to say we don'tknow what those triggers are
until we're triggered.
So if you're listening to thisand you're like, don't feel bad

(19:30):
if you're triggered and itcaught you off guard, that
happens.
That happens and I think we allexperience this to a degree.
I mean, I know, for me one ofmy triggers is those of you have
been part of our church.
You know that we've had somehard seasons as a church.

(19:50):
You know, about six years agoour former lead pastor had been
here for a long time, wasterminated and, rather than sort
of moving on quietly, hestarted a church right down the
road and that happened all inthis time period of moving into
the holidays and that was one ofthe most painful seasons of my

(20:11):
life.
It really was.
Not only was it tons ofjob-related stress, but I
experienced a lot ofrelationship loss during that
time.
There was tons of relationalfallout as people were sort of
trying to navigate all therumors and different stories out
there and felt like they neededto choose sides.
It was a hard season but tothis day I can be in public and

(20:35):
then see someone that I onceknew super well but I'm no
longer in relationship with andthat can be a trigger.
It feels very unpredictable.

Terri (20:47):
When are you going?

Mac (20:47):
to run into someone, so I've had to do the work to go,
okay.
Well, how do I feel when thathappens?
so that when it happens I can'tcontrol when it happens, but I
can now manage my response to itBecause I mean one minute
you're sipping a vanilla lattewith oat milk in it and next
minute you're standing face toface with someone who's like
ghosting you with a glare ontheir face Like what do you do

(21:07):
with that?
Right, and so building ourcapacity to know what those
triggers feel like, so we're notswept up in them but can have
some agency in how we respond tothem.

Terri (21:18):
And thinking about that, matt, right ahead of time, like
even journaling and writing.
How do I feel when that comesup on me and how do I want to
respond?
A lot of this is to prevent.
The unpredictable is to say,maybe in journaling or
processing with a therapist ortalking to a friend, how do I
want to respond in that momentand have a predetermined set of

(21:41):
behavior that you're going to do?
Here's what I'm going to do Ifit's somebody that really I
don't want.
Here's what I'm going to do Ifit's somebody that really I
don't want.
To say I'm going to give myselfpermission to walk away or I
can go up and speak to them, butkind of like process through it
ahead of time.
So things aren't asunpredictable, because it's so
hard when something just hitsyou.

Mac (22:00):
Say more about the value of journaling.
You mentioned it on our.
I think you mentioned it duringthe podcast last year, but if
someone hasn't listened to thatepisode you've named that
journaling does somethingdifferent than, let's say, just
talking about it out loud.
Can you fill that out for us alittle bit?

Terri (22:17):
Yeah right, when you're talking, you're using the
prefrontal cortex and analyzingand using verbalizations.
When you're writing, you'reusing a different part of the
brain that goes deeper into thesubconscious and connects to the
feelings on a much, much deeperlevel.
It's extremely healing and it'spowerful.

(22:37):
It calms down the amygdala, itcalms down certain aspects of
the brain, but it helps thebrain process the feelings.
So I would recommend, if youhave a loss, to really journal
and journal.
And what do you journal?
Journal your feelings, journalyour experiences.
Your brain's going to heal byyou processing those feelings

(22:59):
and because grief can beisolating and you can feel alone
, journaling helps you connectto what those feelings are.
You can talk to God.
You can journal isolating andyou can feel alone.
Journaling helps you connect towhat those feelings are.
You can talk to God, you canjournal to.
God, you can journal to God andGod does hear your journaling.

Mac (23:14):
Yeah, it's almost like when you say that your brain needs
to heal, then I think about thePsalms and how like basically
we're getting.
I mean, David wrote the vastmajority of them.
That's like David's journal.

Terri (23:26):
Yeah, oh yeah.

Mac (23:27):
You know what I mean.

Terri (23:29):
Right, I just made that connection when you said that
that is him journaling.
The Psalms are his journal oflament, right?
He's journaling and lamentingthe pain, and I think that God
must have allowed that, becausethat's a really healthy model of
how we're supposed to do it.

Mac (23:47):
I think so.
So if you're listening to thisand journaling isn't part of
your practice, get a moleskinjournal.
That's what.

Katie (23:54):
I use If you can afford it.
Yeah, that's true, they're thefancy ones.

Mac (23:58):
But give it a shot, because there is some healing that God
might be inviting you intothrough this simple practice.

Terri (24:05):
It's powerful to bring God into it.
Journal to God, bring him intoit.
Maybe God will give you a Psalmor prayer and you can just
journal.
What's important is you don'tdo this in a perfectionistic way
.
It's just kind of let yourbrain go.
We're not going to care aboutthe grammar or the spelling,
we're just going to let yourbrain process what it needs to

(24:26):
process.
Be very gentle and loving andbring God into it.
It's so healing.

Mac (24:31):
So don't let Katie read your journal entries.

Katie (24:34):
I was thinking the same thing about you.

Mac (24:36):
Punctuation and grammar.

Katie (24:38):
That's funny, me too.

Mac (24:40):
Literally All right Let me share a third reason why the
holidays might be particularlychallenging, and it's because
I'll use we language.
We suck at knowing how to bewith people in grief.

Katie (24:52):
Adam, can you bleep that out?
Nope, just kidding.

Mac (24:59):
I haven't always been good at this, so there's a growing
curve for me.
I remember when I was firstmarried if Josie would start
crying, I would.
I was so uncomfortable withthat Um, like this intense
expression of emotion and had toget underneath why do I feel
the urge to fix it?
And so on, and then graduallylearned how to um be present in

(25:19):
a way that was helpful, right.
So I've been on my own journeyof learning how to be present to
people who are grieving orupset, but I've also experienced
the crummy care of others in myown pain.
So I remember when my sonGriffin was born.
Griffin has Down syndrome.

(25:40):
We did not know ahead of timethat he had that diagnosis.
We found out after he was bornand of course that was a lot to
absorb.
We were sort of reeling fromthat news and afterwards news
started to spread that we had achild with special needs and had
people come up and interactwith that.
And what I've discovered iswhen people hear about a loss

(26:02):
and then they feel the need tointeract with it, oftentimes
there are ways of trying to sayor do helpful things are less
than helpful.
I remember on one particularoccasion someone said God gives
special kids like Griffin tospecial parents like you.
And the person waswell-intended, but I remember
being really ticked offinstantly because I thought to

(26:23):
myself well, first of all,you're assuming way too much
about God's agency that I don'tagree with, that God is dishing
out disabilities in the firstplace.
And then, second of all, you'reasking me to interpret his
special needs as an indicationof how special I am, which feels
really narcissistic.
And it's just an example of awell-intentioned comment that
lands with the person in waysthat are anything but helpful.

(26:46):
And I think that this is acommon pattern.
As I've walked alongside peoplewho are experiencing pain or
loss or grief or in achallenging season.
Oftentimes it's become one ofmy defaults now to pray
protection over them from otherpeople's unhelpful but
well-intended and hurtfulcomments.

(27:07):
We even see this in Job.
Like Job's friends, when Jobloses everything, they sit
silently, which they wereobligated to do for seven days.
But then, the moment they getto open their mouths, what do
they do?
They pontificate and accuse Jobof you must have deserved this
for some reason.
Just repent, just confess,repent and things will return

(27:29):
back to normal.
So the moment they open theirmouths, you see them relating to
Job in ways that are actuallyhurtful and harmful.
What would you guys?

Terri (27:38):
add to that.

Mac (27:39):
Do you notice that too?
How does that connect duringthe holidays?

Terri (27:44):
I think that people try really hard to be there,
obviously, but I guess what Iwould say is people either try
to over-spiritualize it, andthat's not very helpful to bring
in scripture if that's not theplace that the person needs to
be.
Or they tend to intellectualizeit, which really is usually not

(28:06):
helpful either, and what wewant to do is just sit with the
emotion of it.
Just sit with the emotion of itso we can over-spiritualize.

Mac (28:16):
Over-rationalize.

Terri (28:17):
Over-rationalize, rationalize and what you got is
some bad theology with thespiritual.
So that was really hard.
But people try tointellectualize.
Well, here's how I think maybeyou should handle this loss and
try to fix it.
Intellectualize it when yousaid you had a hard time when
Josie was sad sitting with that.

(28:37):
Men tend to the first thingthey want to do is to fix it.
They want to do something, sothey tend to intellectualize it
and they tend to think how can Ifix this?

Mac (28:50):
Well, that's the last thing people in grief need.
They don't need fixing and youcan't actually do it.
You know what I mean, from arational perspective.

Terri (28:54):
It brings up as you're talking right now.
It brings up a thought that I'mhaving that your pain.
When you're sitting withsomebody or notice that they're
in pain, it actually activatessomething in you.
And whatever it activates right, whatever it activates in you,
it's going to be your paincoming up, that you're so
uncomfortable.
You want them to come out oftheir pain right now.

(29:17):
Stop it, and here's how I wantyou to stop it.

Mac (29:21):
It's going to actualize your pain.
And that makes so much sensebecause oftentimes, when people
do say something I've noticedit's like well, you're saying
that more for yourself than theother person, right?

Katie (29:33):
the reason we can't sit with people in their pain is
because we don't like to sit inour own pain.

Mac (29:38):
And.

Katie (29:38):
I think if we don't have reps in sitting in our own pain,
if we don't have repsjournaling, sitting with God,
feeling our grief and sadness,like if we can't do that with
ourselves, I think it's reallyreally hard, if not impossible,
to do that for someone else.

Mac (29:51):
I think that's really spot on.
I think those categories arereally good too, that we can
sort of rationalize it away.
I would maybe, as a subcategoryof rationalizing away, say
theologize.
It is not the time to offerpositive cliches and pleasant

(30:14):
platitudes.
It's not the time to likespiritualize it.
It's not the time torationalize it.
It's also not the time to dotheology.
It's a time to be present withpeople and specifically to their
emotional state.

Terri (30:23):
And I think to add to that, know your comfort level
with that pain.
If you're really uncomfortableand something's happening within
you, just sit with your ownpain.
Let's not speak out of thatpain if we're just trying to get
them out of theirs.
Know if you're in pain andyou're uncomfortable and sit
with that and not say anythingor just try not to do.

(30:46):
Let's say this become aware ofwhat your default is when
someone's in pain.
Know what your default is.

Mac (30:54):
All right, I have a question for you, Terry, while
you're here.
I read a book about beingpresent to people in their grief
, and one of the things thisbook talked about is some of the
primary ways people cope withtheir grief.
The author named three ways.
The first is they go off therails to numb their pain,

(31:18):
drinking whatever like have fun.
They kind of do a lot of thingsthat are maybe destructive a
little bit.
Other one is they isolate, theywithdraw from everybody they
know and just kind of do a lotof things that are maybe
destructive a little bit.
Other one is they isolate, theywithdraw from everybody they
know and just kind of isolate.
And then the third one is theybegin to perform.
So this is kind of my defaultwhen I'm grieving is I look at
all my commitments and I do themeven better.

(31:38):
And it's actually a way to feelmore control and process my
grief.
That last one is actually themost challenging, because people
appear like they're doing sowell when in fact they're not.
But my question is how do yourelate to someone who is
grieving, but they're grievingin an unhealthy way?

Terri (31:59):
It's a good question and the thought that I have is it
really depends what kind ofrelationship you have with them.
If it's someone that you aregoing to come in contact with at
church just, and you don't knowthem really well, that's going
to look different than if you'rereally close to them.
So you really have to gaugewhat kind of relationship you
have with them.
But if you have a closerelationship, I think you do

(32:21):
have an obligation to engagethat and say how are you doing?
I'm recognizing that you'vebeen drinking more or you've
been isolating.
If you're isolating, could Ijust come over for a little bit?
Or could we have coffee, maybeonce a week?
I think it would be importantfor us to stay connected.
I don't want you to isolate.
Can we have coffee?

Katie (32:41):
Without the Kahlua yeah.

Mac (32:45):
I'm joking.
Yeah, without the Bailey'sIrish Whiskey we're going to
hear some caffeine.

Katie (32:48):
Can we have a maple latte , maple ube?

Terri (32:50):
It's, whatever unhealthy coping mechanism they're using,
address it in a loving,compassionate way and ask them
how you can be part of cominginto that space, whether it's
I've noticed you've beendrinking too much.
What's going on?
Are you okay?

(33:13):
I've noticed you've beenisolating.
How about you and I go out forcoffee?
I notice you seem like you'redoing really well and you're
back in the swing of things, butthat has me a little concerned
because it seems like I don'tknow.
But let me just check in.
Are you actually taking time tofeel those feelings and
thinking about how you want toaddress what it is that you're

(33:34):
concerned about?
But should you address itAbsolutely In the right space,
in the right time, in the rightkind of emotion?
You want to address that?

Mac (33:43):
That's really good.
So relationship matters.
You need to be proximate tothis person.
They've invited you into theirlife and I hear you saying it
starts with just naming for them, in a compassionate way, what
you're noticing here's what I'mobserving and I'm concerned
about it and then interceptingit with an invitation If you're

(34:04):
isolating, hey, let's gettogether.
If you're drinking too much orsomething, some self-destructive
behavior, let's do thistogether.

Katie (34:13):
Yeah, we talk a lot at this church about grace and
truth and that's what I hear asyou're narrating that Like lots
and lots of grace for people tobe where they are, and also some
challenge, some truth.

Terri (34:24):
And if I could talk about a concept that it brings into
my mind is I tell my clientsgrief is a long tunnel that you
have to go through.
There's light at the other endand you want to escape the
tunnel and there's a lot ofmechanisms and coping mechanisms
that are unhealthy that willhelp you escape that tunnel.
But if you don't go through it,they stay stuck in you and they

(34:46):
will get reactivated at a latertime.
So the best thing you can do isgive yourself time to process
those feelings.
Stay in the tunnel.
God is with you in the tunnel.
God will be with you, but youcannot escape that.
And they will want to get out ofthat tunnel as fast as they can
and they will short-circuit ittunnel as fast as they can and
they will short circuit it andthere are a lot of ways to short

(35:07):
circuit pain.
But it'll come back.
It doesn't go away.

Mac (35:11):
It's almost like the image of you're walking down a dark
tunnel.
It's uncomfortable.
You'd rather just be on theother end to know there's an out
and there's a door on the sideand you could choose that door,
but it's a self-destructive door.
And and you could choose thatdoor, but it's a
self-destructive door.

Katie (35:26):
And when you finally get, out of that door, you're still
in the tunnel.
Yeah, yeah, the escape hatch isnot really an escape hatch, and
if you would, have just keptmoving it'd be.

Mac (35:31):
Well, you'd be in a different spot, a different
location.
That's right.
I hear that.
Okay.
So we've tried to articulatesome of the reasons why grief is
amplified during this holidayseason.
I want to transition us a bitand I'm hoping we can chat for a
moment about the integration orintersection of spiritual
formation and mental health.
This is something we highlyvalue here at church.

(35:53):
We place a high value onemotional maturity and mental
health and we see these runningside by side with each other.
That emotional maturity isactually essential part of our
spiritual formation, and I'vebeen told that's not actually a
conviction at a lot of otherchurches.
I don't know if we're unique ornot.
It just seems obvious thatthese go together for me, but I

(36:14):
thought it might be helpful totalk about how we see the
scriptures and perhaps Jesusspecifically encouraging us to
attend to our grief as part ofour spiritual formation.
So how do you see thescriptures, and specifically
Jesus, maybe teaching us toattend to our grief when it's
there in our lives?

Katie (36:33):
Yeah, I mean I think you just read the New Testament
gospels, and there's stories allover the place of Jesus feeling
pain himself like in his fullhumanness.
Uh, feeling pain himself likein his full humanness, um, and
also entering into the pain ofother people, Um, we talked a
lot about this, I feel, like inour, in our series on emotional

(36:54):
health maturity, how Jesusembodied the full spectrum of
human emotions.
Even though he was God in theflesh and he could have fixed
things Like, he still felt thatemotion.
Like, for example, with Lazarus, when his good friend Lazarus
dies and he goes there knowing Iassume, knowing he was going to
raise him, but yet he stillsits there and he weeps and he
cries and he enters into thepain of his family and friends.

Mac (37:18):
Yeah, one of the things I love about that story too is
that when both Mary and Marthacome out to meet Jesus because
he delayed his trip, they say ifyou had been here, my brother
would not have died.
And I often say that's not anaffirmation of faith, that's an
accusation.
I imagine, as I put myself inthat story.
They're like where were you?

(37:38):
If you had been here, hewouldn't be in the grave right
now.
And Jesus doesn't get defensiveand I point to that to go when
you're upset.
You named Terry that one of thefaces that grief can wear is
anger, and sometimes that angerisn't just here at what happened

(38:02):
, the loss I'm experiencing, butit's at God that he allowed it.
And if we look at Jesus, ifJesus is what God looks like,
you can say God, where were you?

Adam (38:15):
Mm-hmm.

Mac (38:16):
And God meets you in that moment, not with how dare you
question me, but with compassion, to the point where, as you
just shared, katie, he ends upweeping.
He weeps with those who weepand mourns with those who mourn.

Katie (38:29):
Yeah, I love that.

Mac (38:30):
Jesus gives us a master class in what it looks like to
attend to our own grief in theGarden of Gethsemane and what it
looks like to be present tothose who are grieving, and then
gives these little glimpsesalong the way of the new kingdom
.
To go and guess what?
Grief doesn't get the last word.

(38:52):
I do.

Terri (38:54):
I love that.
I love that.
And with Mary and Martha theywere probably really angry Part
of their grief process.
They were angry and you bringup a good point.
Sometimes we look for otherpeople to blame.

Mac (39:05):
Yes.

Terri (39:05):
Like we want to blame somebody.
In this case it was Jesus.
If you would have been here,this wouldn't have happened.
But I love that he wept I lovethat expression, knowing he
could raise him from the deadand would.
And he still wept in thatexperience of pain.
And I use that because do youthink, mac, that sometimes
people think, if you are astrong Christian and know God,

(39:27):
that you shouldn't feel sad orshouldn't feel those feelings?

Mac (39:31):
Yes, I do encounter that theology sometimes, and I don't
I think it's with people who puta premium on the New Testament
that in light of Jesus's victory, there's no.
Where is the sting?
That kind of a thing, and Iwant to say, yes, that's the
future that we're still awaiting, right, we're still living in a

(39:51):
broken and fallen world.
We can't just throw out.
We talked about lament Psalmsbefore.
Those are there for a reason.
It's David's diary of.
Here's the pain I'mexperiencing in life and I'm
bringing that.
I've noticed that pain, I'mnaming that pain, I'm sitting
with that pain and I'm bringingit to God in a posture of faith

(40:14):
and trust.
And that is the largest.
There's many different types ofpsalms in the Old Testament and
that is the largest.
There's many different types ofpsalms in the Old Testament.
You have thanksgiving psalms,praise psalms but, actually the
largest category are laments.
There are I looked it up there's150 psalms altogether and about
a third of them are lamentpsalms.

(40:35):
42 of them are individuallaments.
And then what I think is reallyinteresting is that 16 of them
are individual laments, and thenwhat I think is really
interesting is that 16 of themare communal laments.
So there's also times when wemight be experiencing collective
grief, grief that we all have aconnection to, and what does it
look like for us as a communityto come together and go?

(40:56):
We're all feeling loss.
How can we write our pain out,journal it out and create space
to confess that to one anotherand to God, and then orient with
a posture of trust that God canheal us and that God's present
to us and that this won't havethe final word?

Terri (41:15):
So there's a place to feel and then there's a place to
remind ourself that God isthere with us and that sort of
spiritual connection to remindourself that God is there with
us in that.
So a spiritual connection to itthrough God is with us.
But we have a right and we havepermission to still feel what
we feel, even if it's stillreally anger at God.
He can handle that.

Mac (41:34):
God can handle that.
God can handle that.
One other thing I thought ofwhen it comes to the integration
of scripture and grief is thatpractice I alluded to earlier,
with Job's friends sitting ShivaShiva is the number seven in
Hebrew, and so it's thispractice of when someone
experienced a death, for thefirst seven days they would

(41:56):
actually sit in silence andmourn.
It was a way of honoring thatperson who had passed and
honoring the loss that they werefeeling themselves.
So that's why, you see, job'sfriends, they're just, they're
obligated to do that, but it wasa wise obligation, a way of
honoring their grief, and sothey sat in silence for seven
days.

(42:16):
And you see this show up inother places.
When Jacob dies, in Genesis 50,his family sits in silence for
seven days mourning the loss.
When Moses and Aaron died,because they were so significant
as such significant leaders,they did it for 30 days, but
it's just to go, man.
The Jewish people had aninsight there that I think is
really significant.
They actually had a way, amechanism, a practice for

(42:40):
acknowledging and honoring theloss of a loved one and the
grief that comes with that.

Katie (42:45):
Yeah, yeah, we certainly don't do that in our fast-paced
culture.

Mac (42:52):
Not well enough.
Yeah, I mean, I can't evenimagine sitting silent for seven
days.

Terri (42:57):
I can't imagine you doing that either or seven minutes or
seven days.
I can't imagine you doing thateither.
Or seven minutes or sevenminutes.

Mac (43:04):
All right, let's speak into the lives of our listeners who
might be going through grief inan intensified way this year.
What would you say to those whoare experiencing grief like
this holiday season?
They're about to enter thisseason.
They may already be feeling it.
What would you say to them?

Terri (43:23):
I would say again journal kind of get connected to your
feelings and give yourselfpermission to ask yourself what
do I want to do?
Give yourself permission tomaybe avoid some events.
One thing that I think, firstof all, let me clarify it's a
highly individualized kind ofdecision.

(43:44):
There's no right way or wrongway, but it has to be your way
and I would recommend journalingand praying and saying I'm
going to give myself permissionto do this holiday any way.
I want to do it and be verycreative.
One thing that I tell myclients is, if you're going to
go to an event, a holiday eventgathering, have an exit strategy

(44:06):
.
If you start getting overwhelmedand sad.
Whatever the emotion is.
You have an exit strategy tosay, hey, I'm not doing.
Okay, Whatever phraseology youwant to use, but have that
phraseology kind of planted inyour head ahead of time.
But you have an exit strategyI'm going to leave now, Okay.
And even if you come to a partyand say, hey, I'm just stopping

(44:28):
in, I'm here for a short time,I just wanted to say hi, People
expect you'll be there.
You can stay if you want to,but it gives you a reason to
leave.
So have some thoughts about howyou can prepare yourself as
you're coming into an event withan exit strategy If you are
going to go.
I've read some things.
Some people think you cancancel the holiday and stay home

(44:50):
.
I actually don't love that idea.
I think you go for the limitedtime that you can do it because
I don't want you home.
If you're my client, I go.
I don't want you home byyourself.
I want you to go in the waythat you can go.
Experience your authentic, realself.
Give yourself permission toleave, Figure out how you can do
it and what works for you, buttry to manage a little bit.

(45:14):
Isolation is just not where.

Mac (45:16):
I like people.

Terri (45:17):
I don't love that.

Mac (45:18):
That's great.
I hear that as a reallyempowering word.
This isn't the season to be apeople pleaser, let other
people's expectations determinewhat you do.
But I also hear if one extremewould be engage all of your
holidays just the way younormally would to meet people's

(45:38):
expectations of what you shoulddo.
The other extreme is to say,well, I'm done with that and you
just sit at home by yourself.
There's probably a middleground where you get to reclaim
some agency and determine howyou want to be present, based on
your limitations, and that exitstrategy feels really important
.
I was at a gathering this pastJune.

(46:00):
We were having a volunteerappreciation banquet and we had
a beloved individual on staffnamed Sam who oversaw our
building for a number of yearsand he had a variety of health
issues and he passed actually inDecember it was just before
Christmas a couple of years agoand I was very close to Sam.

(46:21):
I was there for with him duringhis decline, got very close to
his wife when he passed awayjust a beautiful woman and we
had a team of trustees after hisdeath step up and so we didn't
rehire that position.
A team of volunteers said wegot it and during our volunteer
appreciation banquet this pastJune we honored those trustees

(46:45):
and in the process we talkedabout Sam and his wife was
overwhelmed.
She had a grief spasm,understandably so, and I was so
proud of her because she got upand we were at a different venue
, we weren't here at church andshe just departed and she just
sat in her pain for a little bitand I went out there and Deb

(47:06):
went out on another person onstaff and we just put our arm
around her and she she justacknowledged it's hitting me
right now Good, good for her.
And I was so proud of her.

Terri (47:17):
And what I love about that is it's okay to think about
that ahead of time.
If I'm going to go to an eventthat I think I might be okay,
but I'm not sure how am I goingto handle that and what is my
exit strategy.
I have to sit in that pain butit's okay for me to leave.
And what you're saying, mac, isjust give yourself permission
that there is no right way.
You can do it anyway.
Do it your way, whatever worksfor you.

(47:38):
If you have a thought cognitionyou know everybody that knows I
like to talk about cognitionsIf you have a cognition, I
should, I must be able to.
Why can't I?
Why can't I Get that out ofyour head?

Mac (47:51):
Don't should on yourself.

Terri (47:56):
Did he just say that, Katie?

Katie (47:58):
He says that often.
Did he say it?
Okay, it's a common phrasearound here.

Terri (48:01):
He says that yeah, give yourself permission to say it's
my holiday and I'm going to doit the way I want to do it, just
like the popsicle thing.
It's like, hey, it's mypopsicles and I want them.
You have permission to beassertive, to say it's my
holiday and I'm going to do itthe way I want to do it and it's
going to be— I'm grieving.
Give me my popsicles.

(48:22):
I'm grieving and here's how Iwant to grieve.
And here's how you're going tofix it and here's how I want it
to look.
And it's okay to say maybeI—well, here's another thing Ask
for what you need.
You need to ask for what youneed.
If you're going into a holidaygathering and you know you're
needing something, you ask forit in a very real, authentic way

(48:45):
.
You have to be assertive.
Think of that popsicle.
I want my popsicle.
I want to tell you here's whatI'm going to need in this
gathering for me to be okay.
Could we forego this?
Whatever that I know is gonnatrigger me.

Mac (49:04):
And, as your friend, I so want to give you a popsicle.

Terri (49:07):
I know because you're gonna wanna do that if.
I ask you in my grief.

Mac (49:10):
Yes, everybody's a fixer.
So how empowering if you have agroup of friends who want to
help and you have the awarenessto say here's what you can do,
here's what I need in thismoment.

Katie (49:21):
Right, right, yeah, that's good, that's really good.
Another one I would say is just, you know, it's really
important to find places oftrust and support.
Early on in this conversation,mac, you talked about people who
say things, whilewell-intentioned, that really
aren't helpful, and I wouldencourage those who are grieving

(49:42):
to just find people who willcreate space to just honor and
acknowledge your grief withoutmaking you feel like you should
be somewhere other than whereyou are.
Find the people who are justgoing to let you be where you're
at, not minimize it, not try topull you out of it, not try to
fix it or hey, look at thebright side, but just surround
yourself with people who care,people who you can be yourself

(50:04):
with, who you can feel like youcan truly be authentic with, and
that might even includeprofessional help right?

Terri (50:14):
I would think so.
I think the reason people loveto go to therapists is they're
neutral.
Okay, we just I don't knowmaybe who you're talking about
or who you agree for, whateverloss it is, but I can be there
in an objective way and sit inthe pain with you but also help
you, maybe come up withstrategies to help you move
through it.

Mac (50:35):
I also wrote a note down, so it's fun that you name that.
I wrote down the differencebetween inside and outside help
and the reason why is because II've been through some pretty
difficult seasons in life whereI'm going through hard things
and um, and of course my wife,josie um, is a huge advocate for
me.
So I'm very open with her andcan process with her.

(50:56):
She's wonderful and I have somedear friends that I know I can
go to.
But I don't want my wife and Idon't want my friends to become
my therapist.
Josie's my wife, you're myfriend and I think sometimes we
can, like the dynamic of afriendship can change, where all
of a sudden we turn a friendinto a therapist and then it

(51:18):
becomes a different set ofproblems later on.
And so I guess I would add that, yes, find those trusted
friends.
You need community around you.
But I would also advocate havesome people outside of your
friend group that you can go toand it might be a therapist.
I would highly encourage that.

(51:39):
I also have a group of friendsoutside of my context that I
know I can call.
They're on speed dial andbecause they're not in it with
me day and day, like that'sdifferent, it just feels
different.
So have some inside support.
Also have some outside support.

Terri (51:54):
And if I could add to that, research supports that one
of the best support-basedsystems is a support group, so a
group of people that you canfind going through the same
thing doesn't have to be theexact same loss, but the same
thing, like the death of aspouse.

Katie (52:14):
Some type of loss, some kind of loss.

Terri (52:18):
The brain responds really well in recognizing that
someone else gets where you'reat, not just a therapist that
says, yeah, I understand,because I am not in that place,
that they are, but some of thatis actually going through that
experience at the same time.

Mac (52:35):
They're on the inside of your experience.

Terri (52:37):
They're on the inside and outside of your experience.
They're on the inside of yeah,inside and outside of the
experience.
So you have a counselingsupport group, but they're on
the inside and outside at thesame time.
You're building community andyou're building connections of
people that get it, but theyhave the support there for you.

Mac (52:53):
I was checking in on someone in our church who lost a
loved one during the holidays acouple years ago.
This was maybe a few months ago.
I just said, how are you doing?
And the individual said I, I'm.
I'm finally seeing a therapistand it's been so helpful and I
wish I would have done it sooner.
So I just say that to say ifyou're listening and you're kind

(53:17):
of sitting on the fence andmaybe you've been dragging your
feet a little bit, um, and Iknow not every therapist is
created equal, but there are alot of good therapists out there
and if you need help findingone, please reach out to us.
We'd love to get you connectedand help you find the support
you need for this holiday season.

Terri (53:33):
You know, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mac (53:36):
Maybe a final thing I'll say and this has been building
on everything we've been talkingabout but a third thing to do
during this holiday season isjust to be kind to yourself
while you embrace the suck.
If you're in a season of griefright now, this may be, I think,
the most important contributionI think I could make, which is
just to be where you are and bekind to yourself along the way.

(53:59):
Grief really stinks.
It's not fun.
You didn't choose it, itchooses you.
It's super disruptive.
It can be all-consuming andthere's no escaping its effects.
And its effects are there asI've walked with people who are
grieving.
They talk about it.
It affects their body.
They're tired, they'reexhausted, they don't feel like

(54:21):
themselves.
They're tired, they'reexhausted, they don't feel like
themselves, they're not sleepingwell, they may not have much of
an appetite.
It can affect their minds.
They have a hard timeconcentrating, they have brain
fog and it can affect theiremotions.
As we've talked, some peoplejust feel flat, other people
feel angry, other people feelnumb.
So it's just like there's somany, as we were talking about

(54:42):
earlier, so many different waysthat it shows up and so many
different ways that grief canaffect you.
That just puts you at a placewhere you're not at your best.
You're not at your best, and Ithink it does bad work to expect
yourself to be so.
Be kind to yourself, be patientwith yourself, be gracious
towards yourself.
Give yourself yourself to be so.
Be kind to yourself.
Be patient with yourself, begracious towards yourself.

(55:03):
Give yourself permission to bewhere you are.
Give yourself permission togrieve in your own way and at
your own pace.
Prioritize some extra rest andcare and limit your obligations.
Maybe watch yourself talk alongthe way.

Terri (55:20):
Right, Right, your self-talk along the way, right,
right, your self-talk isimportant, right, when you're
talking.
If I could add something really, quick.
When you're going throughsomething as devastating as
grief.
It takes tremendous energy outof your body.
So what will be compromised isyour emotions, the physicality,

(55:40):
your energy level, your abilityto concentrate and even your
connection to God.
All of those things take energyout of your body.
To feel good, to have energy toexercise, go outside, have
emotional space, to connect topeople and have a connection to
God, take energy.
When you're in a grief statethat takes a lot of energy and

(56:01):
when that energy is compromisedin a form of intense emotion, be
very gentle and understand.
You don't have the energy towork out maybe or even get off
the couch.
You may not feel and this isimportant to say a connection to
God, because God and aconnection to God takes energy
in the brain and without thatenergy source you can feel that

(56:24):
God's very far away.

Mac (56:25):
He is there.
Oh, that's so important.
That's so important because itfeels like, in those most
intense moments of grief, thatGod can be absent.
You feel as though God's absent.
Where are?

Terri (56:38):
you.
Are you, god, in my mostdevastating moment of pain, I
feel like you've left me andit's important then to go.
He's not left me, but it takesenergy to feel a presence and a
connection emotionally to Godand your energy is going into
the grief yeah, it's not thatGod's absence right absent, it's

(56:59):
that you don't have the energyto detect his presence.

Adam (57:02):
Exactly.
Yeah, that's a good word.

Mac (57:06):
Well, it is praxis time right, when we kind of give our
listeners some really practicaltools to take with them, Like,
in light of this conversation,you may already have some action
steps to go oh, I'm gonna startjournaling or whatever but
let's crystallize some reallyconcrete things people can do as
they head into the holidays.

Terri (57:28):
The first practice is increasing your awareness, and
what we talked about was thejournaling.
So journaling access is thatpart of the brain where you can
connect to what you're feeling.
And you, named Mac, also knowyour self-talk.
What kind of shoulds am Itelling myself, what kind of
expectations do I have?
That comes in your self-talk.

(57:49):
But also the awareness is wheream I right now?
Where am I?
What space am I in?

Mac (57:56):
What can I do?
What can't I do?

Terri (57:58):
Absolutely.
I'm going to go back tojournaling because that's where
your brain's going to give youthe answers.
You actually know the answersinside of you, but you've got to
process it through journalingand connecting to your inner
kind of core.
No one can tell you whereyou're at.
You're the only one that knowswhere you're at.
Journaling brings it into yourawareness and a lot of people

(58:22):
when they're in pain and youmentioned this, mac three coping
mechanisms they want to avoidthe pain at all costs, and part
of avoidance is I don't want tofeel.
So how can I get out of thisfeeling?
I have clients that go no, I'mnot journaling, and the reason
they don't want to is they knowwhat it's going to do.
It's going to connect themreally strong to their feeling.

Mac (58:45):
It's almost like avoiding going back to that tunnel.
Avoiding lengthens the tunnel,that's right.

Terri (58:50):
Yeah, that's right, and it also gives them an experience
of what they're feeling.
People are really adept atcompartmentalization, and if
they've compartmentalizedemotions out of their brain
their whole life.
Grief is no different.
They'll compartmentalize out thepain and the emotion, they'll
go into performance orientationand they will sit and stay away

(59:11):
from that pain.
And a lot of what I do is tryto pull people out of the
compartmentalized experience oftheir emotion, and journaling is
phenomenal at pulling you outof that compartmentalized space.
It's the hardest thing you'lldo, but it's the best thing that
you're doing.
It's increasing the awarenessof what you're feeling.

Mac (59:30):
If you can't afford a moleskin.

Terri (59:33):
I will buy you one.

Mac (59:34):
Just contact me, we'll get you a journal.

Terri (59:36):
What is a moleskin?

Mac (59:37):
It's just like a hardcover journal.
It's my favorite kind.

Terri (59:42):
I tell my clients to get notebooks like little 10-cent
notebooks.
But now I'll tell them to getMoleskine.

Adam (59:47):
I would also just throw in there.
There are guided journals too.
Sometimes journaling can beintimidating and you don't
really know where to start.
There's plenty of guidedjournals out there too that just
give you any sort of prompt,really basic answers that you
can give to things to kind ofget you started.

Katie (01:00:04):
That's great.
Yeah, you're a journaler, rightAdam.

Adam (01:00:07):
I go through seasons.

Katie (01:00:08):
Okay, yeah, same same, I love journaling.
Yeah, another practice mightjust be to practice compassion.
If you're someone who's goingthrough pain and grief right now
, be sure you're compassionateto yourself, and if you're
listening to this and you're notin a season of grief, I would
encourage you to practicecompassion for other people.

(01:00:28):
I think the Christmas seasoncan be difficult because it's
really busy.
There are so many things for usto plan for and places for us
to be, and there's gifts to buyand blah, and if we're not
careful, our attention canbecome completely consumed by
stuff that's like right in frontof us.

Mac (01:00:46):
And we miss those people that are grieving Exactly Right.

Katie (01:00:49):
Yeah, we can miss seeing those around us and what they're
dealing with, and so we reallywant to keep our eyes open to
the grief of those around us,and I think that can be extra
hard in this season.

Mac (01:01:02):
That's such a good word Be interruptible.
Right, you get what I'm sayingBe interruptible because, so
many of the most profoundmoments we get to hear about in
the gospels are when Jesus is onhis way.
He's on his way to one place,and then someone who it would be
really easy to just walk pastthe woman who's been bleeding
for 12 years he's like rushingto save this 12 year old girl

(01:01:26):
from death and all of a suddenthis other person touches the
hem and he stops let me sayKatie knows this I'm good at
being interruptible.

Terri (01:01:36):
I'm not the best at being intentional.
So I have a really good friendwho has lost her husband and I'm
trying to walk with her in thisseason of grief.
But my struggle is to beintentional in making that time.
I'm good at just if someone.

(01:01:57):
I'm right there in the momentwith whoever needs me so I can
be interrupted.
But I have a struggle with Ihave to be intentional.
So my intentionality is I needto meet with her at least once a
week and connect with her, andonce I say that and what you're
talking about, katie, is thatcompassion and being there for

(01:02:19):
someone is make a plan and say,hey, I've noticed that I just
haven't been the best atconnecting.
How about if we meet everyFriday at 1030 and then I make a
plan?
I'm busy then, but thanks forthe invite.

Mac (01:02:34):
No, that's so good.
If you are listening and youknow someone who's going to be
grieving this holiday season,spend some time thinking about
what they might need, ask themand put a plan together where
you can really be intentional.
A third practice I would nameis give people permission to be
where they are.
We've given you, if you'regrieving, permission to be where
you are.
If you're walking alongsideother people.

(01:02:56):
This is one of the best things Iknow I can do as a pastor, as
I've walked alongside people arein really tough seasons is just
I often will just say it youhave permission to be where you
are.
Right now, there are threewomen in our church about my age
who have been diagnosed withbreast cancer.
There's a man about my age whohas been diagnosed with

(01:03:16):
incurable cancer.
There's a lot of people I knowwho are hurting and I'm trying
to be present as a pastor withcare and I've been told one of
the things that I keep sayingthat's most helpful is it's okay
to be where you are and insteadof trying to say things to fix
it because I can't, is just tonormalize what they're

(01:03:36):
experiencing and I often name it.
I'll say I so badly want to takethis away from you.
I wish I could and I can't.
But I can give you my hand, Ican be present, you know.
So again, don't try to changeit or fix it, because most of
the time you can't.
You don't need to give themanswers, you can just give them

(01:03:59):
your presence.
You don't have to minimize itor put a positive spin on it.
Just acknowledge that this ishard, that they're sitting in
pain, and be present, even ifit's uncomfortable for you.
It's not about having the rightwords, it's simply about
showing up and being there forthem and remember that God is
present.
I often think that the worst itgets, the more God is present.

(01:04:25):
The deeper the grief, the closerGod is.
And stay anchored there.

Terri (01:04:32):
That's good.

Katie (01:04:34):
Yeah, guys.
Well, this has been a greatconversation, I think a heavy
one, but a good one.
For those of you who areanticipating or experiencing
grief as we head into theholiday season, I hope you heard
us.
Give you permission to be whereyou are.
Yes, this season will be hard,so embrace the suck, find people
who can support you and be kindto yourself.

(01:04:54):
And for those of you who arewalking alongside someone in
grief, I hope we gave you someimagination for what it looks
like to support them in thisseason.
Again, don't minimize it, don'ttry to change it, don't put a
positive spin on it.
Just be a loving, supportivepresence and look for ways to
extend the love of Jesus.

Mac (01:05:12):
Next time we're hoping to close out our series on the
great de-churching by talkingabout how to engage or relate to
those who have de-churched, andby talking about how to engage
or relate to those who havede-churched.
And spoiler alert, it's notthrough pressure tactics, but
relational presence.
So see you next time.

Adam (01:05:30):
Praxis is recorded and produced at Crosspoint Community
Church.
You can find out more about theshow and our church at
crosspointwicom.
If you have any questions,comments or have any suggestions
for future topics, feel free tosend us an email.
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