The Forgiveness of Jesus

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What does it truly mean to forgive like Jesus? This transformative episode dives deep into the heart of Christian forgiveness by examining both Jesus' teachings and his lived example. Through powerful stories like Corrie Ten Boom confronting her Nazi prison guard and Jesus forgiving from the cross, we discover how forgiveness breaks the destructive cycle of enemy-making that traps so many of us.

When someone wrongs us, we often respond by ruminating on the hurt, hardening our hearts, and eventually seeking revenge. But Jesus offers a radical alternative. From his teachings on unlimited forgiveness to his practice of forgiving even those who betrayed him, Jesus demonstrates that forgiveness isn't just something we do for others—it's essential for our own spiritual freedom.

The conversation reveals how our ability to forgive others directly connects to our experience of God's forgiveness. As N.T. Wright notes, "Failure to forgive isn't failing to live up to a moral teaching—it's cutting off the branch you're sitting on." Through practical steps like confession, Scripture memorization, and imaginative engagement with gospel stories, we learn how to break free from resentment and become conduits of God's transformative love.

Whether you're struggling to forgive a small slight or facing the seemingly impossible task of forgiving a profound hurt, this episode offers both the theological foundation and practical wisdom to begin your journey toward freedom. Between any wrong done to us and our response lies a choice—and choosing forgiveness opens us to experience the full depth of God's love flowing through us to others.

Episode Transcript

Josiah (00:02):
Welcome to Praxis, a podcast where we explore how to
practice and embody the way ofJesus in our everyday lives.
Thanks so much for taking thetime to listen.
So we're in a series right nowon the topic of forgiveness, and
a few topics are more centralto the Christian faith.
Through Jesus, God offers usthe gift of forgiveness and
invites us into a restorativerelationship.
It's easy for us to rejoice inGod's gift of forgiveness, Yet

(00:26):
we often have a tough timepracticing forgiveness ourselves
.
Rather than embracing thefreedom and transformation that
comes with forgiveness,including the possibility of a
reconciled relationship, we getstuck in bitterness and
resentment, to our own detriment.
So in this series, we'retalking about how to practice
and embody the forgiveness thatJesus invites and challenges us

(00:48):
to live into.
Whether it's learning how toreceive God's forgiveness,
asking others to forgive you orextending forgiveness to others,
our hope and prayer is that youwould sense God inviting you
deeper into practicing the wayof Jesus with us.
Today we're taking a look atJesus.
What did Jesus have to sayabout forgiveness, and not just
in his teachings and preaching.

(01:08):
What about the way he lived hislife and interacted with others
?
If we're going to break out ofthe prison of unforgiveness, the
first step is to fix our eyeson the person of Jesus.
So that's where we're headedtoday.

Mac (01:33):
Well, welcome everyone.
My name is Mac, I'm Katie andI'm Josiah.
Good to see you guys, it's goodto be with you.
I have a question to get usstarted, and here it is.
If your spouse was here Alexfor you, Brooke, for you, Josiah
what would they say is oneannoying thing you do at home?

Katie (01:57):
I don't vacuum enough.

Adam (02:01):
I believe Alex has said that you don't even know how to
operate the vacuum?

Katie (02:03):
Yeah, that might be true.

Adam (02:03):
That might be true.

Katie (02:04):
Well, I know how to like turn it on.
I maybe don't even know how tooperate the vacuum.
Yeah, that might be true.
That might be true.
Well, I know how to like turnit on.
I maybe don't know how to workall the extensions and
compartments.
What?
There are no compartments, no,there's like the arm with the.
There's like a bunch ofdifferent pieces that snap into
the arm.

Mac (02:17):
My kids know how to vacuum, yeah.

Katie (02:19):
I mean, I know how to vacuum, but that's not something
annoying you do.

Mac (02:22):
That's something really annoying you don't do.
Let me go back to the drawingit also makes Alex look really
chauvinistic.

Josiah (02:28):
No, he's not at all.
His number one complaint aboutyou is that you don't vacuum
enough.

Katie (02:32):
He's not at all, it's actually kind of a joke between
us.
If you knew him, you'd knowhe's not like that.
He made fun of me for how Iwashed my face, but that's like
an annoying thing.

Mac (02:42):
Well, how do you wash your face?

Katie (02:43):
I don't know, I think I just wash it like anyone washes
their face clearly not adam's,laughing really hard.
How do you wash your face?
I just go like this and put thesoap on okay, but why is he?

Mac (02:54):
what does he do?

Katie (02:55):
I don't know ask him he doesn't wash his face.
I think he just splashes wateron it okay, weird.

Mac (03:00):
Why are you laughing so hard?

Adam (03:02):
I don't know, these are just really peculiar things.

Mac (03:04):
Yeah, he's really annoyed with how you wash your face.

Josiah (03:07):
Yeah, I would say probably the.

Katie (03:10):
Sorry, go ahead.
I thought of one.

Josiah (03:11):
I would say the most.
She would probably name.
One of the more annoying thingsI do is I like to interrupt her
while she's working.
I could see that.

Katie (03:19):
Do you do that purposely?

Josiah (03:27):
It starts subconsciously , oh, because she's focused on
work and I'd rather have her payattention to me.
So I'll find something that weneed to talk about, like right
now, and then it's not somethingwe need to talk about right now
and just want her attention.

Mac (03:38):
Does she let you know that?

Josiah (03:39):
Yeah, but I'm not always good at backing off sometimes,
and then it will start somethingor I will.
Does anybody else do this?
I like to start fights just forfun With your wife.
Yeah, now, when I say fight,there is a.
There's like a one.

Katie (03:59):
It's like a tiff.

Josiah (03:59):
Yes, there's like a one where it's like, oh, we're just,
it's a quabble.

Katie (04:04):
It's not a big deal.
Yes, there's like a one whereit's like oh, we're just it's a
quabble.

Josiah (04:04):
It's not a big deal, but then there's like tens that are
like you don't talk to eachother.

Mac (04:09):
So you're doing ones.

Josiah (04:11):
I'm starting like twos and threes.
That's funny.
That would be super annoying.
It really frustrates herbecause, like she's, she would
rather not.
I'm just like want to bring upa subject, or you know, kind of
talk sarcastically aboutsomething and kind of provoke
her and then argue a little bit.
I don't know it feels good.

Mac (04:32):
We were shoveling last night and I flirtatiously
tackled Josie into the snow.

Katie (04:36):
Oh, was she annoyed.

Mac (04:37):
She loved it yeah.

Katie (04:39):
I don't see her being annoyed by that.
I don't see her being annoyed.
I thought of a couple things.
So we have like a double sinkin our bathroom and sometimes
mine is too crowded with things,so I'll use his side of the
sink to like wash my face orbrush my teeth and I'll get
water all over the place andthen I don't clean it up because
I don't realize it's there andhe gets kind of annoyed about

(05:00):
that.
And then the other thing isthat Alex has an electric car
and when you pull it out youhave to take the plug out and
you're supposed to like put iton the hang it back up hang it
back up and, like you'resupposed to like, put the cord.
like what am I trying to say?
Wrap the cord.

Adam (05:15):
Similar to a vacuum similar to a vacuum cord.
Yep, yep, you're just out ofpractice because you don't use
the vacuum enough.

Josiah (05:22):
That's why you don't know how to use the one.

Katie (05:24):
Yes, exactly, I don't know how to use our vacuum
enough and I don't always hangit up.
And then also related to thecar I don't pull over enough in
the garage, so a lot of timeshe'll be driving into the
driveway, have to stop, get outback the car put it in closer
and then move the car in.

Mac (05:46):
So there's three for you.
All of those things you justnamed would be really annoying
people picking fights with youjust for their own entertainment
.
You know they have their ownsink, and yet they're using
yours and leaving it a mess likewe have to get back on your
side okay.
So the reason that this questioncame to mind is because when
Jim Harrington met Josie we weredown in San Antonio last week

(06:09):
doing a little training he askedher this like right away and
like very quickly like Mac, youcan't say anything, I just want
to hear what she has to say howfunny so here's what she said
about me.
Oh, I want to hear this.

Josiah (06:21):
Oh yeah.

Mac (06:21):
This is yeah, so I on Sundays, I'm usually pretty
wiped after interacting witheverybody and I take a nap.
When I get home, I'll eat andthen take a nap.
She doesn't have a problem withme taking a nap, but it's where
I take it If I fall asleep inmy room, like I'm out out, you

(06:44):
know.
So I always choose the couchwhere everybody is.

Josiah (06:50):
Everybody has to walk around carefully.

Mac (06:52):
But I'll put on my noise-canceling headphones with
a sound machine sort of like appand there can be like all hell
can be breaking loose around meand I will have no idea she's
dealing with all that, she'sstaring over at you In the
living room.

Katie (07:11):
It's like in your face, peacefully sleeping.

Mac (07:14):
There was one time where, literally one of our kids was
losing it, probably five feetfrom me and I was just out cold
peacefully.

Katie (07:22):
You were probably hearing it in your dream and having
some story around it.
That's funny, did she?

Josiah (07:28):
say anything else, no, just that.

Katie (07:31):
She's like let me tell you how much time do you have?

Mac (07:34):
Alright.
Well, you know, speaking ofnuisances and things that are
really annoying.
We're sitting in this tensionright now that, on the one hand,
we know God loves us andforgives us, and we also know
that we're supposed to forgiveothers, and yet we so struggle
with this, like the parable ofthe unmerciful servant.

(07:54):
We're so quickly to forgetGod's forgiveness and then
refuse to forgive other people.
And so far in this series we'vebeen dealing with how we get
stuck in forgiveness.
So quick review here during ourfirst episode we talked about
what forgiveness is and isn't,and the reason why is because
many of us resist forgivingothers because we confuse

(08:14):
forgiveness with something itisn't.
So we're actually not resistingforgiveness, we're resisting
something other than forgiveness.
So it's important to get clearon what forgiveness is and isn't
.
So we're not resistingforgiveness when we're actually
resisting something else.
But then last episode we talkedabout what we call the cycle of

(08:35):
enemy-making.
We've also called it theflywheel of unforgiveness.
You can call it whatever youwant, but this is a vicious
cycle where, when someone wrongsus, we respond by ruminating on
that wrong, hardening ourhearts towards the other person
who has wronged us, and overtime what that does is it ends
up causing us to de-imagiodethem.

(08:56):
So we dehumanize them andeventually that leads to taking
revenge.
And we talked a little bitabout there's different degrees
of intensity and harm with thatrevenge.
But the talked a little bitabout there's different degrees
of intensity and harm with thatrevenge.
But the more we get caught upin this cycle, the harder it is
to get out.
Well, today we want to talkabout the key to breaking out of
the cycle of enemy making.
We want to say that the wrongsomeone did to you doesn't have

(09:19):
to determine how you respond.
You get to determine thatBetween the stimulus of a
wrongdoing and your response,you have a choice to make Before
you jump into the flywheel ofunforgiveness.
You can choose somethingdifferent and you can do that by
reclaiming your agency.
And the first step towardsreclaiming your agency is by
fixing your eyes on Jesus.

(09:40):
So today we want to take a deepand long look at what did Jesus
have to say about forgiveness,and not just what he said about
it in his preaching and teaching.
We also want to look at the wayJesus lived his life and
interacted with other people,because if we're going to break
out of the prison ofunforgiveness, the first step is
to attend deeply to the way ofJesus so that we can do the same

(10:03):
.
So does that make sense?
You guys tracking?

Josiah (10:07):
Yeah, all right.

Mac (10:09):
What would you add?
Anything I missed?

Katie (10:12):
Yeah, I think we've laid a really solid foundation in the
last two episodes, but I amespecially excited for today
because I think whenever we talkabout something related to
emotional health orrelationships like forgiveness,
I know I can get really excitedto learn about it, and sometimes
the temptation can be to get sofocused on the information or

(10:32):
the principles or the practicalapplication that I can forget
the anchor point, which is Jesus.
So I think that's important andI think we want to always come
back to looking at him first.
So I'm excited for thisconversation.

Josiah (10:45):
Cool.
Yeah, we kind of do that withall of our subjects.
Here we're trying to point itback to Jesus, but here we're
saying, rather than trying tosay, where does this fit with
Jesus?
We're actually going to look toJesus as he's the source of our
ability to forgive.
It starts with him, so that'swhere we have to begin the
journey.

Katie (11:05):
All right.
So in our episodes in theseries so far and I'm hoping we
can do this again is we'veprovided a feature story of
forgiveness.
Last week I talked about RubyBridges.
What a powerful and inspiringstory she was of courage and
forgiveness, at least for me,especially given that she was a
six-year-old.
What she did was incredible.
But do either of you have afeature story that we could use

(11:25):
today for inspiration on thisepisode?

Josiah (11:28):
Yeah, yeah, I wanted to tell the story of Corrie Ten
Boom.
So if you're not familiar, shegrew up in Holland late 18.
I think she was born in thelate 18.

Mac (11:42):
No, Holland, holland.
Yes, it was a joke, I know that.

Josiah (11:50):
She grew up in Holland sort of in a very Christian home
.
Her dad was a watchmaker andtheir family.
As she got older she sort oflearned the trade, which, side
note, is actually kind of cool.
She was actually the firstwoman to ever become licensed as

(12:11):
a watchmaker in.
Holland, so she's kind of ago-getter.
Nazism was spreading acrossEurope.
They very quickly became awarethat they had a role to play in
helping house Jews andprotecting them from Nazi

(12:32):
soldiers.
So their house became thisplace where they would hide
people.
They were fearless in that andyou can read all about this in
her book called the Hiding Place, but it's estimated that they
saved the lives of over 800people.
Wow, wow.
So all of this is, you know,they end up leading an entire

(12:55):
underground movement where theywould store people, essentially
for a short amount of time andthen communicate with other safe
houses outside of the cityAnyway, their whole family did a
really cool work in that andthen communicate with other safe
houses outside of the city.
Anyway, their whole family dida really cool work in that.
But eventually one of theirneighbors betrayed them and

(13:17):
ended up.
Their whole family was arrested, some of them were killed and
our dad was imprisoned.
But Corey and her sister weresent to the Ravens Ravensbrook

(13:38):
concentration camp outside ofBerlin and experienced all the
atrocities of these campsUnspeakable cruelty to her and
some of her family membersaround her Literally watched her
sister die at the hands ofthese soldiers and a couple of
weeks after her sister is killedshe actually gets released on a
clerical error.
It was like really random thatshe was able to be released.

(13:58):
Post her release she sort ofregroups her life, sets up an
entire rehabilitation center forconcentration camp survivors
after the war and basically therest of her life she spent
traveling, speaking, writing.
She received lots of likecommendations and sort of awards

(14:23):
for some of the humanitarianwork she did.
But I want to center on thisstory that it wasn't long after
the war where she made it out ofthe camp and, uh, it was one of
the first times visiting berlinagain after leaving, and while
she was there, uh, she wasapproached by a man that looked
sort of sort of uh, sort offamiliar to her and rather than
me telling the story, I actuallywanted to play a clip, if

(14:45):
that's all right, where it's aclip of her giving essentially a
sermon on forgiveness to achurch and she shares a story
about this interaction.

Corrie Ten Boom (14:59):
I t was some time ago that I was in Berlin
and there came a man to me andsaid Mr Boom, I am glad to see
you.
Don't you know me?
And suddenly I saw that manthat was one of the most cruel
out-seers guards in theconcentration camp.
And that man said I am now aChristian, I have found the Lord

(15:24):
Jesus.
I read my Bible and I know thatthere is forgiveness for all
the sins of the whole world,also for my sins.
I have forgiveness for thecruelties I have done.
But then I have asked God'sgrace for an opportunity that I
could ask one of my very victimsforgiveness, and Fräulein ten

(15:47):
Boom wants him here forgiven.
Will you forgive me?
And I could not.
I remembered the suffering ofmy dying sister through him, but

(16:07):
I was not able.
I could not.
I could only hate him.
And then I took one of thesebeautiful texts, one of these
boundless resources Romans 5:5,.
The love God is shed andbrought into our hearts through
the Holy Spirit who is given tous.

(16:28):
And I said thank you, jesus,that you have brought into my
heart God's love through theHoly Spirit who is given to me.
And thank you, father, thatyour love is stronger than my
hatred and unforgiveness.
That same moment I was free andI could say brother, give me

(16:53):
your hand.
And I shook hands with him andit was as if I felt God's love
stream through my arms.
You never touch so the ocean ofGod's love.
As that, you forgive yourenemies.

Josiah (17:07):
A lot.
A lot comes to my mind fromthat story.
I think the biggest takeaway isone how much she had to
overcome in order to extend theforgiveness.
I think it does help for us toput into perspective, although
we shouldn't feel shameful forhaving smaller things to forgive
.
Of course, it is inspiring tosee someone who had so much to

(17:27):
forgive was able to do so, but Ilike the way she narrates the
fact that she didn't have to doit in her own strength.
She had the sense that Godwanted to extend, for God is the
one who wanted to extendforgiveness and it didn't need
her to try to perfect thisprocess first.
There was a, there was a senseof like, like I want to offer

(17:49):
forgiveness and as she does that, she's able to experience a
sense of God's love that shewould not be able to without the
act of forgiveness.

Mac (17:58):
Yeah, it's.
It's such a powerful.
I've never heard um her narrateit.
I've heard many people share umsort of the details of that
moment or summarize that story,but I've never heard her narrate
it, so it was really powerfulfor me to actually hear her tell
it.
And then I think and we'll getinto this more but she really

(18:19):
epitomizes the central practicethat we're gonna end with today,
which is when you're sort ofstuck in that place of
unforgiveness, the pivot is tosort of look to Jesus and allow
him to give you strength.
You don't have on your own tobe able to extend forgiveness to

(18:40):
others, right, yeah, and Ithink just like what would have
happened, like she couldn'tmuscle that up, you know what?
I mean, she did two things inthat moment she looks to, she
looks to God and realizes andlike, realizes and re-receives
his forgiveness, like that's heranchor point.
And then she receives from himthe power and strength and

(19:01):
courage to do it.
And we're going to see as thisepisode progresses that like
that is essential for us tobreak out of that cycle of any
enemy making which she was stuckin.

Katie (19:12):
Right, yeah, and who would blame her?
I mean, I hear her going.
Man, she's standing there going.
Okay, on the one hand, I wantto forgive this person, but I
can't.
I can't.
All I had was hate for him andit's like, yes, I don't know how
you would have anything buthate just given, I mean just
being a human being and watchinghim do the things that he did

(19:33):
and the way that he abused herand all of that.
But then to hear her narratethe transition of just
surrendering to God's grace andthen him acting in her in that
moment, is really cool.

Mac (19:43):
Yeah, and it captures also, I think, just the
quintessential sort of litmustest of a growing disciple of
Jesus's love, and the furthestthat gets stretched is loving
your enemy, which is sort oflike the apex of Jesus's
teachings in the Sermon on theMount.
It's not just loving those wholove you, it's actually learning
to love like the concentrationcamp prison guard who mistreated

(20:08):
you and killed your sister.
Yeah, it's crazy.

Josiah (20:11):
I just like I don't know , it's kind of hitting me In
enemy love.
There's something in it for usLike I don't want to say that
from like self-absorbed sort ofwhat's in it for me type of
perspective.
But she narrates the idea forus to love our enemies is like
okay, god, you asked me to, Iguess I will.
As opposed to, I have a greatercapacity to experience God's

(20:34):
love when I choose to forgive myenemies.

Adam (20:37):
And.

Josiah (20:37):
I think that's much.
It's a much more inspiringvision than just I'm supposed to
.

Adam (20:45):
Yes.

Josiah (20:45):
Like we get focused on a verse that says Jesus said God
won't, won't, won't forgive youif you don't forgive others, as
a um, but I think there's likethis okay, rather than seeing it
as transactional, we actuallysee that like Jesus is warning
us, and I know we're going toget more into it, um, but Jesus
is warning us at the warning us,and I know we're going to get

(21:06):
more into it.
Um, but Jesus is warning us atthe like it's, it's to our
benefit as well as the opposite,to our detriment, when we
choose to not forgive.

Mac (21:13):
Yeah, it wasn't just transactional.
It wasn't a transactionalmoment to use your vernacular,
but it was a transformationalmoment for both of them, and
that's what makes it powerful.
Yes, well, here's what I'mhoping we can do today.
I think it is going to be a bitto bite off Like it's going to
be a big we're eating a steak.
This might be like borderlinechoking hazard, you know, but

(21:35):
I'm hoping we can look at theteachings of Jesus pertaining to
forgiveness, like what didJesus say about forgiveness?
And then I would love to lookat how Jesus practiced and
embodied forgiveness in the wayhe interacted with others.
And then let's close by comingback to this conversation.
What a powerful illustration ofsomeone acting on the teachings
of Jesus to get free, or breakfree from that cycle of enemy

(21:57):
making.
I want to end with kind ofgiving some concrete sort of
nitty gritty details on how wecan begin to do that.
I think we can accomplish allthat, guys.
All right, all right, well, okay, let's just jump in.
What did Jesus?
Let's do a quick overview.
This isn't everything, but whatare some of the main things
Jesus said or taught aboutforgiveness?

Katie (22:19):
Yeah, I think, and this kind of ties into the first
episode that we talked about.
We talked about how forgivenessis acknowledging what actually
happened and I think, and thiskind of ties into the first
episode that we talked about.
We talked about how forgivenessis acknowledging what actually
happened and I think Jesus didthat.
I think he taught us toconfront the wrong done and then
forgive it.
So in Luke 17, he says if yourbrother or sister sins against
you, rebuke them, and if theyrepent, forgive them.

(22:41):
Even if they sin against youseven times in a day and seven
times come back to you saying Irepent, you must forgive them.
Even if they sin against youseven times in a day and seven
times come back to you saying Irepent, you must forgive them.
So when I first look at thatverse, the word that sticks out
to me is the word rebuke.
It says if a brother or sistersins against you, rebuke them.
But the word rebuke can for mekind of carry sort of a harsher

(23:01):
condemnation, and so I lookedinto what the word rebuke here
stems from, and it comes fromthe Greek word epitomeo.
You'd be able to say thatbetter than.

Mac (23:12):
I could, well, I could.
But here's the thing whenyou're pronouncing a Greek word,
or a Hebrew word for thatmatter, is you just say it with
confidence.
That's all that, really matters.

Josiah (23:22):
Okay, so just let's try that again Just rip it out, yep.
Well, why don't you say itfirst?
They'll be like oh, that's howyou say it, Just say it yeah.

Mac (23:29):
You just got to pretend like you know what you're
talking about.

Katie (23:31):
Well, that feels disingenuous to me.

Adam (23:42):
I don't like that, but I don't know.

Katie (23:44):
Anyways, the Greek word, which I'm not going to pronounce
, means to warn or correctsomeone in a loving and direct
way, so it's not really carryingthe connotation of like an
angry reprimand, but rather it'sa loving correction that's
meant to lead to reconcilingwhatever the wrong is.
And I think this one is reallyimportant because I know

(24:05):
sometimes we can fall into theidea or at least I can fall into
the idea that Jesus was kind oflike a nice guy who didn't
really ruffle feathers, I know,for a while I probably believed
that like, oh, he's just niceand says things that make people
feel good and heals people orwhatever.
But in fact Jesus said hardthings to people all the time,
and he did so not to shame them,but rather out of love for them

(24:27):
.
And the reason he did this isbecause Jesus' love was always
rooted in truth, and so lovingpeople in a Jesus way means
telling them the truth about anywrong that they might have
caused us, and I think that'swhat he's doing in this verse.
He's saying if someone sinsagainst you, speak honestly
about what happened.

(24:47):
He's not saying brush it overand don't acknowledge it.

Mac (24:51):
Yeah, I mean, and God doesn't do that with us.
I know I think we've said thisin previous episodes, but like
when God deals with our sin andwrongdoing, he doesn't pretend
like it didn't happen.
He sort of names the full truthabout it and then acts in a way
that provides forgiveness.
Nt Wright Nicholas ThomasWright, once said this I don't

(25:13):
want to know his names.

Josiah (25:15):
I like NT better.
Now that I know his name.

Katie (25:17):
Well, he goes by Tom Wright actually, but when he
started publishing books in theUS, they made him go by NT
Wright.

Josiah (25:23):
Well, either way, I don't want to know the real name
, all right, well, nicholas.

Mac (25:25):
Thomas Wright once said Forgiveness is not the same as
tolerance.
It must confront the actualwrong that has been done.
True forgiveness is costly anddemands that we name evil for
what it is rather than ignoringor minimizing it, and I think

(25:48):
that it often helps to startwith the small things rather
than the big things.
Uh, so, going back to SanAntonio for a moment, um, there
was, we were presenting to kindof a group of like 30 people, so
this little training we weredoing, and, um, at one point my
coworker, jim, interruptedTricia, my other coworker, and I
noticed it because I know thatthat's like a sort of a pattern

(26:11):
in their relationship thatthey've had to work really hard
on, having worked together for25 years, and I noticed it.
And once that session endedafterwards, jim approached her
and named it and they liketalked about it and acknowledged
it and then that kind ofcarried over into the next you

(26:33):
know session.
That became an illustration oflike how we deal with things and
I thought, man, what a greatexample of like.
It would be so easy to sort oflike not attend to that, just
kind of like ignore it, minimizeit, whatever.
But it seems to me that gettingthose reps with the really small
things actually builds ourcapacity to forgive.

(26:55):
When it comes to the biggerthings, learning how to say when
something goes wrong, hey, thathurt, and here's why, when it'd
be so much easier not to, is away that actually opens up and
deepens our capacity to forgive.
Does that make sense?
And I think we're honestlyaccustomed in the church to
minimize or pretend or sweep itunder the rug in the name of

(27:16):
forgiveness, when in fact we'renot being honest about what
actually happened.
Does that make sense?
And I mean with the smallthings, like the little, like
your?

Katie (27:25):
spouse, for example, gets your sink all wet.

Mac (27:27):
Yeah, like saying hey, this is that.
This is the impact it has on me.
Now, my the, my sink is wet.
Yeah, my shirt's all wet.
My shirt's all wet.
Hey, like when you picked afight with me just because you
needed some stimulus, like thisis what that?
Does to me.

Adam (27:44):
Right.

Mac (27:47):
Yeah, yeah, so I'm not saying it leads to like policing
every wrongdoing with thisharsh rebuke.
I mean, Katie, you did a greatjob with that Greek word saying
that's really not.
That's not what's happeninghere.
But I do want to say I thinkwhen we learn how to do this
with smaller things, it gives usthe confidence to be able to do
it with bigger things.
Yeah, that's a good word.
Another thing, when it comes toJesus's teachings.

(28:08):
Jesus taught us to forgivewithout limits.
I mentioned this passage beforebecause it comes right before
the parable of the unmercifulservant.
But what sets that up is Petercomes to Jesus and asks Lord,
how many times shall I forgivemy brother or sister who sins
against me?
Up to seven times, and ofcourse Peter thinks he's being
really generous there and Jesusresponds I tell you, not seven

(28:32):
times, but 77 times.
Many scholars believe thebackdrop to Jesus's response.
There is a story in Genesis ofLamech, and I don't expect
anybody to know who that is.
So, quick summary Lamech was adescendant of Cain and Cain,

(28:54):
remember, was the one who killedhis brother first, one who
commits murder in the Bible.
And of course the sins offathers are passed on to sons,
and so Lamech ends up boastingabout the fact that he killed a
man for merely wounding him.
So someone else like hit himand he ends up killing him in
response and ends up boastingabout it, and at one point he

(29:15):
says if Cain's revenge issevenfold, then Lamech's is 77
fold.
Okay, so Lamech is taking pridein his escalation of violence
and unchecked retaliation, andthis is the backdrop with this
interaction between Peter andJesus.
So when Peter asked Jesus if heshould forgive up to seven

(29:36):
times, he thinks he's beinggenerous.
But Jesus responds by extendingforgiveness to the furthest
possible extent, forgivenesswithout limits.
And he does this by reversing.
He's reversing Lamech'sescalating violence and revenge
with escalating grace andunlimited forgiveness.
Okay, so Jesus is undoing thispattern of revenge, undoing it.

(30:00):
Whereas Lamech captures thefallen way of dealing with
wrongs by taking revenge withoutlimit, jesus points to the
kingdom way by forgiving withoutlimit.
He's completely reversing theentire retaliation mindset.
Isn't that awesome.

Josiah (30:17):
That's really cool.

Mac (30:18):
Instead of multiplying wrath, we're to multiply mercy.
I can see your wheels spinning,both of you, so maybe let me in
just a little bit.

Katie (30:29):
Yeah, I was just thinking this is what Jesus does.
He takes situations and flipsthem on their head.
It's like a very subversive isthat the right word?
Yeah, kind of takes this ideathat we would have and then just
completely flips it in a waythat I would not think of doing
on my own, and then he does I'mlike, oh, that's genius.
Yeah.

Josiah (30:48):
Yeah, I think it.
I remember hearing thescriptures like this when I was
a kid and I remember poking fun,being like okay, well, if
someone said sorry, if I canforgive them up to like the one
way it's translated is like 70times seven, like 490 times.
So, like, if I did that enoughthen.

Katie (31:09):
You would reach the limit .

Josiah (31:09):
I'd reach the limit.
Oh funny and just kind ofhaving fun with it.

Mac (31:14):
But we take Jesus literally just in this church.

Katie (31:17):
That was the 491st time.

Josiah (31:18):
You're done yeah yeah, done, cut off.
Ah, reached my limit, but it'sreally cool to see that Jesus is
using the callback to that oldstory to not reference a certain
amount of times.
He's specifically answeringthat there is no room for

(31:39):
revenge in the kingdom of God.
Yeah, I'm answering that andI'm calling back to that so that
you know that there is actuallyno wiggle room.
There is no room for you hereto hold on grudges and to harbor
hatred in your heart.

Mac (31:57):
Right, what?
How many times do I have toforgive?
Well, you're never done.
And maybe let me take this onestep further.
He's saying, in fact, theentire retaliation cycle needs
to be put to an end and reversed.
It's, it's brilliant.
And of course, this obviouslypicks up on what we were talking

(32:17):
about earlier, which is thiscommand to enemy love.
And of course, this obviouslypicks up on what we were talking
about earlier, which is thiscommand to enemy love Again as
you were saying, Katie, that hecompletely reverses things,
turns things upside down.
Well, that's it.
That we're called to love ourenemies was a great reversal.

Josiah (32:31):
Yeah, yeah.
Another thing that Jesusteaches is he warns that God's
forgiveness is conditional onour forgiveness towards others.
Matthew 6, 12 is within theLord's Prayer.
He's saying that you're to praythat he would forgive us our

(32:51):
debts, as we also have forgivenour debtors.
In Mark 11 he's saying thatwhen you stand praying, if you
hold anything against someone,forgive them so that your Father
in Heaven may forgive you yoursins.
Also, from the Beatitudes he'sblessed are the merciful, for
they will be shown mercy.
So there seems to be thisconditional quality, but I think

(33:15):
that, as we unpack this, andeven as I was thinking about the
story we were referencingearlier, is yeah, maybe there is
a conditional quality to it,but I think Jesus is exposing
the reality of how it works.

Mac (33:31):
Yeah, okay, let me just name it.
I imagine some people might belistening and all of a sudden
they're noticing some hives ontheir forearms because it sounds
like works, righteousness, likehey, the way I get forgiven,
the way I earn God's forgiveness, is by forgiving others.

Katie (33:46):
Is that what you're saying?
So all of a sudden I think ofthat at a time when I didn't
forgive someone and whoops, doesthat mean I won't be forgiven?

Mac (33:50):
Yeah, oh, I lost my salvation.
I'm going to have to so fleshit out.

Josiah (33:55):
Yeah, I don't think it's necessarily about salvation as
much as it is.
Our ability to experience God'sforgiveness is completely
dependent on our ability toforgive others, and the measure
we use to forgive others is howmuch we'll be able to experience
.
So I think of it like if I am,if I'm thinking of, of I have

(34:21):
like a pipe that water flowsthrough.
If I take the stop valve and Iturn it off, the water is not
going to flow through.
So not only is water not goingto get to the other side of the
pipe, but the pipe itself is notgoing to have any water at a
certain point.
The pipe, but the pipe itselfis not going to have any water
at a certain point.

(34:41):
So I guess I see it as you stopthe flow of forgiveness towards
other people, that limits youbeing forgiven from your
heavenly father.

Mac (34:49):
And you're on the other side of that stop valve.

Josiah (34:52):
Yeah, cause you stop it from flowing into you as well.
I mean, I can't flow throughyou, yeah.

Mac (34:58):
I mean think about the story.

Josiah (35:00):
I mean, and I know it is her story, but she experiences
this immense and I remember inthe book she said it felt like
there was a light.

Mac (35:11):
You're talking about Corrie Ten Boom right now.

Josiah (35:13):
Yes, sorry, she said it felt like there was electricity
flowing through my arm.

Mac (35:17):
Yeah, in other words, she felt like the valve was
partially shut or shut and shehad to ask God to crank that
valve open, and it did, and thenit flowed into her through her
into this prison guard and shegets to experience forgiveness,
as she's forgiving someone else,right?
Yeah, I think that's a helpfulclarifier.
Perhaps we could put it thisway that if we refuse to to

(35:41):
forgive, it indicates that wehave not fully grasped god's
mercy toward us.
And so jesus isn't providinglike a soteriological framework
of how we're saved.
He's just describing.
This is how it works.
Yeah, um, maybe a quote for youfrom my friend, nicholas right?
Um, failure to forgive oneanother Isn't a matter of

(36:03):
failing to live up to a new bitof moral teaching, it is cutting
off the branch you're sittingon.
Should I read again Failure toforgive one another Isn't a
matter of failing to live up toa new bit of moral teaching.
It is cutting off the branchyou're sitting on.
The only reason for beingkingdom people, for being

(36:26):
forgiven at all, is that we areto turn into forgiving people.
If we don't live forgiveness,we are denying the very basis of
our new existence.
Nicholas.

Josiah (36:39):
Wright, very basis of our new existence.
Nicholas right, I think thatthis also exposes the way that
we have been taught in somecircles spiritually to view
God's forgiveness towards usLike God's intention with
sending Jesus to die on thecross was just to save me and
him, and I think that thispoints out that Jesus is trying
to say that just as much as hewants to be reconciled to us, he

(37:02):
wants us to be reconciledtowards others, and there is a
certain level of that truth thatis baked into our reality as
people that if we aren't willingto live in peace with people,
that there is a certain level ofpeace we will not experience in
ourselves.

Mac (37:23):
Yes, yes, and because you're on it, dude, the gospel
is not just about a verticalreconciliation with God.
It is that, but it also is ahorizontal reconciliation, and
so, to the degree that we'reunwilling to forgive someone
else, we're actually denying thegospel of reconciliation, and
what's more is, we're actuallyrefusing to forgive something

(37:44):
that God has forgiven.

Katie (37:47):
We're making ourselves more powerful.

Mac (37:49):
Right.
And going back to that storywith Corrie Ten Boom, the prison
guard has said I've become afollower of Jesus and received
his forgiveness Right, so Godhas.
He's saying God a follower ofJesus and received his
forgiveness Right, so God has.
He's saying God has-.

Josiah (38:03):
He's made him that for her yes.

Mac (38:05):
And so what I'm saying is yes, and when we refuse to
forgive someone else, we'reactually at cross purposes with
God.
We're refusing to cooperatewith the forgiveness God is
extending to that person.

Katie (38:16):
Yeah, what was the very last line of the NT Wright quote
?
You're denying the basis.

Mac (38:21):
You're denying the very basis of our own new existence,
nicholas Thomas.

Katie (38:27):
Wright.
Yeah, if you're living intothis new life with God,
forgiveness is the centerpieceof that life with God.
So if you're refusing to extendforgiveness, you're actually
denying the whole basis of yourlife in the kingdom.

Mac (38:41):
You're denying the basis for your own existence, you're
denying the gospel becauseyou're refusing to cooperate in
the reconciliation of all thingsand you're refusing to forgive
something that God has alreadychosen to forgive in Christ.

Josiah (38:54):
Yeah, that's good, I'm the vine, you're the branches.
I'm the vine.
You're the branches, I'm thebranch.
Forgiveness is actually a waythat we can extend the branch
outward and we deny thatforgiveness towards others.
The only reason we're graftedin is because God chose to.

Katie (39:12):
Right, yeah, that's a good one.
Another one is Jesus warns usabout our refusal to forgive
others.
So in Matthew 18, Mac, you toldthis parable a couple episodes
back.
It's the parable of theunmerciful servant.
There's a king who wants tosettle accounts.
Long story short, there's a manwho owes him like a ton of

(39:33):
money 10,000 talents youexplained what that was.
And the man who owes the kingbegs him to forgive him because
he says, be patient with me, Ican't pay it back.
And the king ends up extendingforgiveness.
But then the servant who hadthe debt forgiven turns around
and finds someone else who oweshim a much smaller amount of

(39:54):
money.
And that man asked forforgiveness and the servant
refuses to forgive.
And that man asked forforgiveness and the servant
refuses to forgive.
And Jesus has some pretty harshwords in that story for the man
who received mercy and thenturns around and refuses to
extend mercy and even the scopehe uses.
Right, Like you were forgiventhis huge debt that's worth 20

(40:15):
or 10,000 talents, but then yourefuse to forgive a much smaller
debt, like a debt that's worth20 or 10,000 talents, but then
you refuse to forgive a muchsmaller debt, like a debt that's
minuscule.
In light of that, we look atthat and go, wow, how
hypocritical.
What is he thinking?
But I think Jesus is going thisis us.
When we refuse to forgive, whatwe're doing is we're failing to
grasp the magnitude of what wehave been forgiven of, and we're

(40:39):
the servant who's turningaround and going yeah, I've been
forgiven, but you don't deservewhat I have.

Mac (40:46):
Oh yeah, and you guys?
I mean this is common in eachone of our own lives, Like we
all struggle, but for somereason it's just super common in
the church.
I don't.
It's frustrating.
Can I just have a moment offrustration?
I'm so excited, Dear churchpeople.
I've just encountered one toomany people who had, like some
messy past right and then atsome point were brought to their

(41:07):
knees, receive Jesus as theirpledge, their allegiance to
Jesus, and receive hisforgiveness, and then they start
to experience transformation.
You fast forward 15, 20 yearsand they're the most judgmental
people towards those whose livesare a mess.
It's just the older brothersyndrome in the parable of the
two lost sons.

(41:28):
It's like we've somehow someway, it's like the longer we've
been following Jesus, instead ofgrowing in our awareness, our
acute awareness of his mercy andgrace in our lives, which
should only deepen in time offollowing him.
It's like we become, I don'tknow like we lose sight of that,
and then we become morejudgmental and honestly

(41:48):
hypocritical towards those whoaren't there yet.

Adam (41:53):
Yep.

Mac (41:54):
And I just don't like that.
I don't like that in me, Idon't like that when I see it.
It doesn't look good on us,right.
Yeah, it's like mom jeans.

Katie (42:04):
Hey, no, hey no, I don't think they look great mom jeans.

Mac (42:08):
Like Josie knows this, she wears skinny jeans because
that's what I like her to wear.

Josiah (42:16):
Okay, what else does she wear?

Katie (42:18):
that you like.
I can't wait to see whereJosiah is going to take this
tangent.
No, I'm not.
I'm just going to sit back andwatch.

Josiah (42:24):
No, before that I was naming that.

Mac (42:27):
The neuro connectors in my brain where those don't look
good and I thought what doesn'tlook good?

Adam (42:32):
And I'm like oh, mom jeans , that's why Josie doesn't wear
mom jeans, because she doesn'tthink they look good.

Mac (42:35):
That's all that happened there.

Josiah (42:37):
I was going to name the importance of humbling ourselves
continually before we have tobe humbled Like I don't know.
I always reference.
There's a passage where Paul iswriting to a church I'm sorry,
I don't know which one it is,but he calls him, he refers to
himself as the chief of sinners,himself as the chief of sinners

(43:06):
, and at that point he, ifanybody, could have felt like he
has graduated from that labelright, like anybody that you can
read about in the Bible.
There's anybody who could havelike had accolades.
He chose to continue, like hereferenced himself as that, not
because he's not forgiven, but acontinual reminder that he is
that and he is grateful foranything.

(43:27):
So I don't know.
I just if we don't humbleourselves, we start to get this
view that we've graduated beyondthe simple things and we are
never to graduate from that.

Mac (43:41):
I see Paul's statement referring to himself as a chief
of sinners as the posture Jesusinvites all of us to take when
he talks about, like the speckin someone else's eye and the
plank in your own eye you know,so yeah, Adam, you can edit out
the mom jeans comment if youwant.

Katie (44:00):
but it's funny, leave it in um.

Mac (44:03):
I mentioned this parable, but it's one of the most
well-known parables that jesusum taught and it's it's for good
reason.
It's one of my favorites.
But it's the parable of theprodigal father, and labeling
the parable that way is onpurpose the prodigal father
versus the prodigal son.
It's intentional, at least forme.

(44:24):
It's due to the influence of aguy named Tim Keller.
The word prodigal does not meanwayward or lost, as most people
think.
It actually comes from a Latinword which means recklessly
extravagant, lavish in givingspending resources freely and
abundantly.
And you all know the parablethe younger son demands his
inheritance, which is reallyrude and basically wishing his

(44:45):
father was dead, and then hegoes off and squanders all of it
and so on.
But the point of the storyisn't the son's mistakes.
It isn't.
The point of the story is thefather's grace and forgiveness.
While the younger son wasprodigal with how he wasted the
father's inheritance, the fatheris even more prodigal with his

(45:08):
overwhelming forgiveness andgrace and love towards his son.
That Jesus tells this parable inresponse to the religious
leaders, much like thechurchgoers I was just
describing, who are grumblingagainst Jesus for hanging out
with sinners and tax collectors.
So he's saying here's why I'mbeing gracious towards these

(45:28):
people that you're looking downupon, because I'm manifesting
the prodigal love of the Father.
And then he swoops in and tellsthe story of how the older son
responds, in a way of holding upa mirror to the religious
leaders of his day, to go yeah,and that's you.
So my point is is kind of onthis section of what did Jesus

(45:51):
say is that he told some prettyamazing parables about the
nature of forgiveness, andperhaps one that's really worth
reflecting on is the parable ofthe prodigal son.
It's beautiful.
You'll never mine it completely.
Every time I return to itthere's more that hits me or
impacts me.
It's like a diamond.
You can keep turning it andseeing different things.

Josiah (46:11):
Yeah, so Jesus taught a lot on the subject of
forgiveness, and teaches us tocontinue doing it.
What are some of the ways thatJesus practiced forgiveness in
his own life?
What did that look like for himto practice what he preached?

Katie (46:27):
Yeah, and not just to talk about it but actually to
love it.
Yeah.
One story that comes to mindfor me is the woman caught in
adultery in John eight.
In that story you have a groupof Pharisees and religious
teachers bring to Jesus a womanwho was caught in the act of
adultery and they say the lawsays to stone her.
So what do you say?
And what was happening here?

(46:47):
They didn't.
I don't think they weregenuinely seeking Jesus' advice.
I think they were trying totrap him.
They knew that his heart wouldbe bent towards mercy but that
the law required death, and sothey were trying to put him in a
catch-22.
But Jesus says okay, go ahead,go ahead, and the one who has
never sinned throw the firststone.
And then, one by one, they walkaway.

(47:08):
And then Jesus looks at thewoman and says did no one
condemn you?
Then neither do I Go and sin nomore.
And I like the story because itdemonstrates Jesus's approach
towards forgiveness, I think ina couple ways.
For one, it just shows how hedemonstrates mercy over judgment
.
He would have had every right tocondemn her or affirm the
punishment that she deserves,but instead he shifts the focus

(47:29):
from the woman's sin, to theimperfections of the accusers
and the hypocrisy, in a sense,which again, is just brilliant,
if you ask me.
In doing so, I think he extendsmercy to her and he again
exposes the motives of those whoare accusing her and trying to
trap him.
So another example of Jesusjust kind of flipping what's

(47:51):
happening on its head, but atthe same time he doesn't deny
her sin or ignore the law'sdemands for justice.
In a sense, rather, heencourages her to turn away from
her sin.
He says go and sin no more, andhe shows that forgiveness is
not a license to continue sinfulbehavior, but rather it's a
call to deeper transformation.
And I just think that's alesson for us in what true

(48:13):
forgiveness looks like.
It's not a get out of jail freecard, it's not extending
permission to someone to keepdoing the thing that caused you
harm, but rather it's extendmercy in a situation that would
otherwise call for judgment, andin so doing we invite the
person into deepertransformation.

Mac (48:28):
You know one thing that stands out to me as you were
sharing that story.
I mean, obviously she's a pawnthat's being used to trap Jesus
right.
There's other pieces at play.
There's other pieces at play,there's other moving pieces, but
it strikes me as significantthat Jesus absorbs increased
wrath from the religious leadersin extending her forgiveness

(48:51):
and extending forgiveness tothose whose lives are a mess.
If there's not some increasedanimosity we might have to
absorb in the name of offeringor extending forgiveness, to

(49:12):
others, especially since we livein a Lamech world.
A Lamech world meaning a worldthat runs on revenge and
retaliation, and you know titfor tat, the biggest thing that
stands out.

Josiah (49:27):
As you're just sharing this story, I've heard this a
thousand times she did not askJesus for forgiveness, he just
gave it to her.
I don't know.
He just gave it to her, I don'tknow.
I think sometimes in our churchcommunities we like to use that
repentance as the mark of which, if someone can hang around or

(49:53):
be a part of our community ifthey're struggling with sin, but
they're repentant then they canstay here.
If they're not, then maybe theyshouldn't be, Jesus extended
forgiveness when people didn'teven ask.

Mac (50:07):
Yep, and here's what's interesting is it fits what we
talked about in our I don't knowfirst or second episode on this
whole thing, that forgivenessisn't contingent upon the other
person.
It's something that we do, soit shouldn't surprise us that
God has already offeredforgiveness.
The question is whether we wantto receive it and experience
the transformational joy thatcomes with it.

Katie (50:27):
Yeah, what sticks out to me as I was reading it is the
Pharisees' call for justice,which is a value of God.
Right, god is a just God and heis a God of justice.
So they're appealing to Jesus'sense of justice.
It's not like he turned a blindeye and said a God of justice.
So they're appealing to Jesus'sense of justice.
It's not like he turned a blindeye and said, no, everyone can
do whatever they want, Justignore the law that Moses gave

(50:47):
you.
And I think that bubbles up inme too, like when I have to
forgive someone.
It's like but justice, butjustice requires right, like
this happened, and so theyshould have to pay.
And it's really interesting tome how he doesn't deny the
justice in the situation hedoesn't.
He acknowledges it.
Yes, this should be thepunishment, but yet he chooses

(51:10):
to extend forgiveness and mercy.
It's like these two thingswouldn't otherwise be doing.
That ultimately enables you tolive free from sin.
It's not your ability to makeit for a while or prove that you
want it.

Mac (51:42):
It's like God forgiving us ahead of time is what empowers
us to live a life, and obviouslythat entire story is saturated
with hypocrisy.
The two biggest layers ofhypocrisy are those who have
stones in their hands, notrealizing their own sinfulness.
So Jesus holds up a mirror thatway.
But obviously the other layerof hypocrisy and insincerity is
where was the man who was alsocaught in this adulterous

(52:06):
relationship?
He's nowhere to be found, andso I've said before, this isn't
a story of a woman caught inadultery.
It's religious leaders caughtin their hypocrisy, and Jesus
was just so smart he knew how tohold up a mirror in real time.
Here's another story whereJesus does something very
similar.
It's in Luke, chapter seven.
It's a brilliant story.

(52:28):
Jesus receives an invitation todine at a Pharisee's house.
His name is Simon and so he'sthere and they would.
Often the way they ate wasdifferent than the way we ate.
They'd often recline at a tableand this woman walks in and she
anoints Jesus's feet with analabaster jar of perfume and is

(52:48):
crying and wiping his feet withher hair and so on, and Simon
the Pharisee looks at well,really, both of them with
judgment.
He judges Jesus because he'slike whoa.
If Jesus were really a prophet,he wouldn't be letting this
happen.
And then he's judging the womanbecause of her reputation.
And Jesus in real time, sobrilliant.

(53:12):
He tells a parable, like justthink about this.
You're in this hot seat andJesus is so smart.
He tells a parable in themoment about two people who have
been forgiven different amounts.
One person was forgiven a ton.
The other person was forgivenway less, kind of like the
unmerciful servant, but he goes.
So which one, once they've beenforgiven, would love more?
And Simon basically, is forcedto answer well, obviously, the

(53:33):
person who was forgiven more.
He goes you're right, thiswoman, and this woman loves me
more.
And then goes in to, kind ofholds up this mirror and is like
, well, she's wiping my feet,even though you haven't even
provided water to wash my feet.
She's giving me all like.
He basically like uses her asan example of love toward him,

(53:54):
in a way that Simon isn't toinvite him to reckon with where
he's at.
It's just brilliant.
And again, if we're going tolearn how to navigate the world,
it's not just that we shouldreceive God's forgiveness and
deepen our love for God, it'salso that I think we need to be
able to do this kind of workthat we see Jesus doing, namely

(54:16):
interacting with other people ina way that affirms the
forgiveness people have receivedand reconciliation with God, no
matter what their pastorbackground is, and be able to
hold up a mirror to those whosnicker about it yeah.
One scholar put it this way.
He said the scandal of grace isthat those who have been
forgiven much are not simplyrecipients of love.

(54:37):
They become agents of it.
True forgiveness is never justabsorbed.
It transforms us into peoplewho love extravagantly.
As you receive God's love, youbecome an agent of it, just like
your pipe conduit metaphor.

Katie (54:51):
What sticks out to me from that story is that Simon
probably had just as much to beforgiven of oh yes, he just
didn't realize it right, Like inthe moment, it's just like the
Pharisees and the woman caughtin adultery, like their
hypocrisy is just as much of asin, if not more.
We just fail to realize thatwe're on the same level yeah
right as other people.

Josiah (55:12):
Right yeah, another story that comes to mind is
Jesus washing Judas' feet.

Mac (55:21):
Gosh, that would have been so awkward, well you know,
having your feet washed Well no,I mean like, if you're.
Judas, and you know what you'reabout to do, like holy smokes.

Josiah (55:30):
Yeah, like, like I would say, like most of us are are
familiar with Judas.
He's the one who betrayed Jesus.

Katie (55:36):
It'd be like you're on a date with someone and you know
you're going to break up withthem and they're like offering
to pay the bill.

Mac (55:43):
Has this ever happened to you?

Katie (55:44):
No, I just made me think of it.
It's kind of the same right.
Yeah, you're talking aboutbeing awkward.
Yeah, no, it's true.

Josiah (55:51):
Yeah, there's an awkwardness, but the you know
below the surface level, fun ofit.
This was his last supper he washaving with his disciples.
It's very intimate.
He's imparting these things,he's establishing the Lord's

(56:12):
Supper which we still practicetoday, and he knows Judas is
going to betray him and probablyalready has been doing things
up until that point to do so,and washes his feet along with
all the other disciples.

Mac (56:28):
Yeah, which was more than just an act of love.
So maybe to just be theologicalfor a moment yes, please do.
Yeah, well, that moment wherehe's washing feet is a
foreshadow to what's going to,what's going about to happen on
the cross.
So Jesus sort of removes hisgarments and washes feet, and on
the cross he's stripped of hisgarments and washes humanity of

(56:51):
their sin.
So it's more than just like akind gesture towards Judas.
It's a proclamation of Judas'sforgiveness, the forgiveness
that's provided through thecross.

Josiah (57:01):
I didn't know that, yeah , essentially he's sort of
forgiving him in advance in someways.
I mean, even though I'm sure alot of the betrayal had already
happened up to that point,there's a sense of not
withholding any bit of theforgiveness he's offering all of
humanity, even from the one whois betraying him.

(57:21):
It's really beautiful.
Yep, he's forgiving him whilehe's in the act of doing the
betrayal, probably also worthnoting that I don't think any of
us would be able to do it.

Katie (57:35):
So in my I'm just thinking about this I said my
example wrong.
So in my example it's actuallyyou know the other person's
about to break up with you andyou're writing the bill Like as
they're, they're like getting upto leave.
You're like oh, I'll like.

Josiah (57:47):
I'll take it.
Yeah, you know.

Mac (57:49):
That's right, instead of you being the recipient of the
you know.
Oyster's.
Rockefeller this is you going?
Yeah, this isn't going to workout and I'm going to pay for it.
Yeah, and in fact, they're theone who doesn't want to continue
, even though you might, mm-hmm,yep, we should keep going with
this.

Josiah (58:05):
No, I'm just kidding.

Katie (58:06):
And they cheated on you yeah yeah, yeah, oh geez.
Okay, maybe another one is withPeter and his denial.
So before Jesus' death on thecross, peter denies him three
times.
Jesus's death on the cross.
Peter denies him three timesyes.
He's asked if he knows Jesusand he says no, and Jesus

(58:27):
actually predicted this wasgoing to happen.
But then, after Jesus's deathand resurrection, they have a
moment where Jesus appears toPeter and the other disciples
and he asks Peter, do you loveme?
He asks him three times, onefor each time.
Peter denied him yes.
Peter answers yes, I love you.
And Jesus replies then feed mysheep.
So, looking at this story, Ithink we can imagine like the
guilt and the shame that Peterfelt he had been incredibly

(58:49):
loyal to Jesus.
He tells him I would never denyyou.
But then he does and ratherthan shaming him or saying like
I told you so, jesus insteadoffers him an opportunity to
reaffirm his love for Jesus andto me this seems like an act of
restoration, like he's restoringPeter to that position and it's

(59:12):
showing Jesus' heart to mendthe relationship and Peter's
failure, rather than becoming anend, becomes an opportunity for
a fresh start.
So that's just a beautifulpicture to me.

Mac (59:23):
Yeah, it also stands out to me that the last two examples
that have been shared Judas andnow Peter both of them were
disciples All right.
So again, forgiveness isn'tjust a one-time thing.
Like, you pray a prayer and nowyou're good to go.
It's like this was after theymade the decision to follow
Jesus and they were stillmessing up.

(59:43):
They weren't perfect and neededto receive forgiveness on an
ongoing basis.
So again, speaking to thattendency to become like
disconnected from our need forGod's mercy and then look on
other people with judgment andself-righteousness, I want to
continue to press into.
This is a like.
Receiving God's forgiveness isa daily thing, not a

(01:00:04):
once-a-lifetime thing.

Josiah (01:00:05):
Yeah, another story is with the paralytic man that was
lowered in through the roof.
If you remember this story,people brought to Jesus someone
that they wanted healed and hewas trapped in a house full of
people.
So they broke open a spot onthe roof and lowered him down.

(01:00:27):
And Jesus, before offering thehealing of his body, he first
pronounces that his sins areforgiven, and of course
everybody gets in a tizzybecause it's like who can do
that?
You know, who do you think youare?

Katie (01:00:48):
God.

Josiah (01:00:49):
Yeah, god, actually yeah , but he, yeah.
So he says well, so that youknow that the Son of man has the
power to forgive sins, take upyour mat and walk and, like this
guy, number one did not ask tobe forgiven, but Jesus heals his

(01:01:10):
body and forgives him of hiswrongs, all in one sort of fell
swoop.
In one sort of fell swoop and Ithink it's a, you know, I think
it's a it it showcases thatJesus, or God, sees our sins as
something we have committed, butdoes not let that stand in the

(01:01:31):
way.
I think.
I think God sees the, the forceof sin, acting on all of us and
is able to forgive us in spiteof the things that we've done
wrong, because he understandsthat sin is something that has
impacted all of us.
In this example, it impactedthis man's body.

(01:01:53):
This man's body was broken andhe healed the body and also the
soul all at the same time.

Mac (01:02:00):
Yeah, I think it gives us a picture that salvation is
holistic.
Yes, right, I think that's whatyou're getting at.
And, man, if you ever want totalk about a mic drop moment in
the gospels, that feels like oneof them where.

Josiah (01:02:12):
Jesus is like like who are you the power to forgive
sins?
He's like well, watch this.
Yeah, that would be cool.

Katie (01:02:18):
He's like well watch this .

Mac (01:02:19):
Yeah, that would be cool, I think, if you were to go.
Okay, pick one example thatcaptures Jesus' teachings and
embodiment the way Jesuspracticed forgiveness.
It's the story of Jesus hangingon the cross in Luke, chapter
22.
And he prays to the very peoplewho had just driven nails into

(01:02:42):
his wrists and his feet Father,forgive them, for they know not
what they do so here he's beingunjustly executed, even though
he's completely innocent, and isforgiving the very people who
have put him on the cross, whichincludes you and me, knowing
that we fully don't understandthe weight of our sin and our

(01:03:04):
wrongdoing.
And of course, I just want tomake sure everybody knows this.
We've been anchoring it inJesus, but most of the New
Testament, the rest of the NewTestament, tends to look at
Jesus and then apply it to us.
So there's numerous passages inPaul's letters, for instance,
that, and in Peter, that take alook at Jesus and then tell us

(01:03:27):
and we're to forgive like that.
So just a couple of quickexamples.
Ephesians 4 says be kind andcompassionate to one another,
forgiving each other just as inChrist, god forgave you.
Colossians 3, verse 13, bearwith each other and forgive one
another.
If any of you has a grievanceagainst someone, here it is
forgive as the Lord forgave you.

(01:03:48):
So you know, and we could keepgoing.
In 1 Peter it talks about howlove covers a multitude of sins.
And in 2 Corinthians 5, paultalks about how we're
ambassadors of reconciliationand commands us to be part of
that work.
So hopefully this gives us likea foundation to go.
Here's what Jesus said.

(01:04:08):
Here's what he did when it cameto embodying forgiveness Father
, forgive them, for they knownot what they do.
The entire New Testament callsus to embody that forgiveness.
Let's now talk about that cycleof enemy making and how to
concretely and specifically,when you find yourself swept up
in the current of the flywheelof unforgiveness, how do you

(01:04:32):
break out of that, like we seeCorrie Ten Boom doing, to then
receive God's mercy and channelthat towards other people?
What does that actually looklike for you?
Have you done this in your life?
I kind of going back tosomething I said earlier, I tend
to think it starts and we gainrepetitions with super small

(01:04:54):
things.
So even thinking about, forexample, someone cutting you off
in traffic, right, how easy isit to be like you bleepity,
bleep, you know Like.
I see a lot of people the timeswhen I accidentally do
something I'm not supposed to intraffic.
It's crazy how quick people getmad.
It's right.
There's an example of how quicksomeone has jumped into that

(01:05:15):
cycle of enemy making wherethey're dehumanizing you and
giving you the finger in in anot so subtle form of
retaliation and revenge, right?
So that's what I'm talkingabout.
It's like even in that momentwe can go.
Okay, have I ever cut someoneoff in traffic before?
Of course I have.
I'm going to.
I'm going to give them grace inthis moment.
You know what?
I mean, or even our last episode.

(01:05:35):
I shared an example, josiah,where and Katie, where I blew it
in a staff meeting you gotreally big and I I had to work
really hard not to get you knowoff track and start ruminating
in a way that hardened my hearttowards you, Josiah, and I'm
glad I didn't, because thatwould have gotten in the way of
us being being friends.
So you get what I'm saying Like, are there any examples where

(01:05:58):
you go in my marriage or with mykids?
Oh my gosh, with my kids.
I can think of examples whereI'm like what a little
nutcracker.

Adam (01:06:07):
Like you know what I mean.

Mac (01:06:08):
And all of a sudden, like your perspective, your heart
gets hard.
Your perspective of them startsto be less than loving, and you
know what I mean.
Yeah, what's the key to gettingout of those moments?

Josiah (01:06:20):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, I, yeah, I think.
For kids there's definitely one, I think, with my, my eldest,
she's 13.
Um, and she's 13.
If you've ever met a 13 yearold, oh yeah, you know what I'm
saying.
Um, uh, I don't always do this,but it is good for me to stop
and take a step back and realizeI was 13 too and in some ways I

(01:06:43):
was probably way more difficultto my parents, like in
different ways than she is.
So I've, I was a kid too and Iwas not.
I did not have everythingfigured out, and I manipulated
and I lied to my parents too andall those things.
Oh yeah, um yeah, did you lieto Adam?
Never once.

Katie (01:07:04):
Thank you.
They were friends for those ofyou who don't know yes, we were.

Josiah (01:07:08):
They were friends as kids Since middle school.
But yeah, no, that is true withkids.
Just put yourself in theirshoes.
You can break out of it byexamining your own life.

Mac (01:07:20):
Yeah, like empathy seems to be a key ingredient when it
comes to extending forgiveness.

Katie (01:07:26):
Yeah, I think with kids and with spouses, really anyone
that you're in a regularrelationship with if you pay
hard enough attention, you'reprobably going to have lots of
opportunities to extendforgiveness in the small ways
that you're talking about.
Opportunities to extendforgiveness in the small ways
that you're talking about, like,okay, I can think of one that I

(01:07:46):
had to forgive offhand, but Iokay, I talked earlier when you
asked what annoys us about ourspouses.
Alex loves his car, the Mustang, the Mach-E and a month ago,
about a month ago I was backingout of the garage and I wrecked
it.
I left the gas cap open.
It's actually an electric car,but the little cap for the flap
where you plug it in, was openand I pulled out too close to

(01:08:09):
the garage and it snapped it.
And oh, he loves that car.

Mac (01:08:17):
And I didn't even go back in the house right away.

Katie (01:08:19):
I just put it back in the garage, and then I no, I
couldn't even get back in thehouse right away, I just put it
back in the garage, and then Icouldn't even get it back
Whatever.
So then I just took the van andwent where I had to go, and I
was just waiting.

Josiah (01:08:26):
You left it, yeah, in the doorway of the garage.

Katie (01:08:29):
Yeah, Maybe I couldn't pull it back in.

Josiah (01:08:31):
I don't know what happened.

Katie (01:08:35):
Anyways, I took the van.
It just sounds like a moviescene.
I took the van and then I gothome.

Mac (01:08:39):
I have so much appreciation for Alex you should he needs it
.
What a cruciform individual.

Katie (01:08:46):
I was gone for a little while and I texted him like hey,
I did something.
And then I got home and I wasjust sort of ready Not that he
would be like mean to me aboutit, but I was ready for him to
just be kind of like irritated.
You know, it's like cause heloves this car, it's going to
have to go to the shop.
He just got a new job, he'scommuting to Madison, it's going
to be the money, all of it.
And so it was kind of bracingfor like uh, what am I walking

(01:09:07):
into?
And there was like none of it,like he was just normal Find,
like yep it it like there was nofrustration.
And I just noticed that I waslike, oh, I talked about the
water around the sink.

Mac (01:09:25):
Yeah, on that night, but played up your side.

Katie (01:09:27):
I'm just kidding um, no, but I just noticed that, being
other on the other end of it,I'm like, oh, I probably
wouldn't be that gracious inthis situation because that was
a stupid thing and it's reallyannoying and I could have taken
the time to close the gas capand I didn't think about it.
Does that answer your question?
I forget what the question was.
How do we break out of thecycle of enemy making?

Mac (01:09:49):
Yeah Well, I think you guys have said some important things
.
I've heard empathy Like hey, ifI put myself in their shoes it
increases my capacity to extendforgiveness, because I will
likely realize I've been theretoo.
And then I heard you narrate apowerful story of when someone
forgave you and how that couldhave been different and it

(01:10:12):
impacted you, and those types ofexperiences can transform us to
become those kinds of people.
That's the whole point ofreceiving God's forgiveness.
The most powerful car mess up.
You know what I mean.
Like that's a little microcosmof what God has done for you.
I think the key takeaway likethis is it is between the

(01:10:35):
stimulus of a wrongdoing andyour response.
What will determine whether youspiral into the cycle of enemy
making or become a conduit ofGod's love and forgiveness is
where you fix your eyes.
And the place to fix your eyesis Jesus on the cross praying
Father, forgive them, for theyknow not what they do.

(01:10:56):
That's what gives you access toreceive God's forgiveness.
I didn't even know the fullextent of my wrongdoing and God
forgave me.
We go back to sort of CorrieTen Boom.
We receive God's love andforgiveness and then we feel the
current flowing through us togo and I can forgive this other
person, even if they don't knowthe full extent of what they're

(01:11:17):
doing.

Adam (01:11:19):
Right.

Mac (01:11:21):
All right, this has gotten really long.

Katie (01:11:23):
It has.

Mac (01:11:24):
It's been a long episode.
Let's get into some praxis.
Praxis time.

Katie (01:11:28):
Praxis podcast, praxis podcast.
Yeah, what would you guys sayare some practices that if
someone's listening, they couldlean and do to live this out.

Josiah (01:11:39):
Yeah, first practice would name, is just to sit in
Jesus's presence with the fulltruth of one of your own sins.
You know, in the fourth step ofAA is what they call a fearless
moral inventory.
It's essentially in order to,in order to, like, understand

(01:11:59):
what you've overcome in thatspace you have to take stock of
everything you've done wrong inorder to overcome and get past
it.
In our discipleship curriculumwe call this experiencing God in
your badness.
So, essentially, sitting withyour quote-unquote failures and

(01:12:21):
badness and all the stuff thatmakes us feel terrible, is
sitting with it and facing itwith God.
I think that I tried to namethis earlier.
God sees the effect that sinhas on our lives and Jesus, in

(01:12:57):
forgiving, he looks up to theFather, not towards us, saying I
forgive you and you that stuff.
We can rest assured that Goddoes not hold those things
against us and wants to, just asthe prodigal father, open his
arms and let us run to him.
But we have to be willing tosit and view it in reality.

Mac (01:13:15):
I did that a few years ago.
We go on a silent retreat everyyear together.
Josiah, a couple years ago Ifelt God inviting me to do the
fearless moral inventory where Ijust name all of it while
sitting in his love, and it wasso hard and transformative and

(01:13:36):
it made me think.
You know, I grew up Catholicand they have one of their
practices is confession.
You go to a priest you know Igrew up Catholic and they have
one of their practices isconfession.
You go to a priest.
You know as much as you want,but to practice confession,
that's something they offer atthe retreat that we go to, and I
think it's actually a practicethat we're not very good at as
Protestants.
And yet the New Testament tellsus to confess our sins to one

(01:13:57):
another.
There's something powerful thatgets unlocked when you name the
truth of what you did and howharmful it was in the presence
of another person who followsJesus, and let them embody God's
love and proclaim hisforgiveness over you.
So maybe practice 1.2 would beyou can do this with someone who

(01:14:18):
you really trust to be a safeand Jesus-like person in your
life to go.
Hey, I need to tell you aboutsomething that I haven't told
someone before and it's not fun,but I know you'll love me well
and you'll embody God'sforgiveness towards me and that
puts a face.
That puts a face to forgivenessthat you might not experience,

(01:14:38):
just you and Jesus praying.
Here's another practice that Ithink gets at this is
imaginatively enter a gospelstory involving forgiveness.
So one really great practice.
If you get bored with readingthe Bible, you read the gospels
and it just feels like blah.
This just is to slow down andactually imagine with all five

(01:15:03):
senses, as if you're there,seeing it or even part of the
story.
So what do you see?
What do you smell?
What do you feel?
Is there wind?
Just as, using all five senses,enter into the story and then
allow Jesus to show you thingsfrom different angles.
And I remember one time I didthis with a story in Luke 5

(01:15:26):
where Peter had been fishing allnight with a few of his
partners in the fishing industryand they came up empty-handed
and the next morning they'recleaning out their nets and
Jesus is preaching and teaching.
And then he gets in the boatand is like, hey, throw those
nets down.
And it of course makes zerosense because they're night nets
and now they're during the dayand they'd been out all night
and didn't catch anything.
But then they catch this huge,you know ginormous amount of

(01:15:49):
fish and the boats are sort oflike overflowing with fish,
they're starting to sink andPeter falls on his knees and
essentially realizes he'sstanding in the presence of God
and in Jesus's presence and isoverwhelmed by his sinfulness.
And I remember at one pointentering that story with all

(01:16:10):
five senses, like imaginingbeing Peter, jesus instructing
me to lower the nets, likeimagining feeling the nets in my
hands, smelling like the sea,all of it.
And when it got to that momentwhere Peter realizes who he is,
I began to just sob like Peterand I'm not a crier, I've become
more of one in the last, likesince you get kids.

(01:16:31):
Kids change that for you.
But the point is I felt it in away that I had never
experienced before, in a waythat, just like reading the
story and then going on the nextstory, would have never done so
.
If that helps you, if you'relistening to this and that helps
you, maybe just try it.
Try entering into a story withall five senses and just allow.

Katie (01:16:52):
God to work in you as you do that and see what it unlocks
.
I love that.
Yeah, I think that's reallygood advice.
Yeah, another one might just bememorize a passage on
forgiveness.
What was the passage thatCorrie Ten Boom referenced?
It was Romans.

Josiah (01:17:05):
Romans 5.5,.
I think.

Katie (01:17:07):
How does it go?

Josiah (01:17:09):
But it's really cool the connection to the story.

Katie (01:17:11):
Yeah.

Josiah (01:17:13):
That's God's grace shed abroad in our hearts.
It's something about.

Mac (01:17:16):
God pouring out his love in our hearts.
So that we can overflow withlove towards others, god pouring
out his love in our hearts sothat we can overflow with love
towards others.

Katie (01:17:27):
And hope does not disappoint us, because God's
love has been poured out intoour hearts through the Holy
Spirit who has been given to us.
So think about, obviously,Corrie Ten Boom had spent time
meditating in scripture anddwelling on those passages in
such a way that it seeped deepdown into the fabric of her
being, that at the moment whenshe couldn't do anything else,
it was there and I think, okay,think about the times when we

(01:17:48):
are in those moments like Ican't picture that intensive a
moment where my you know, thisprison guard is coming up to me.
But we all have those momentswhere our, like anxiety kind of
hijacks the executivefunctioning in our brain.
What is it the amygdala is likehijacks the executive
functioning in our brain.
What is it?
The amygdala is like hijackingthe logical reasoning thinking
center.
And when that happens and we'renot thinking clearly, I think

(01:18:10):
it's those times that when we'vereally meditated on something
and memorized it, even if wecan't really think or say or do
much else, we can pull out, wecan pull that out in the moment
you can go back to a scripturethat you've worked on memorizing
and that has a lot of power.

Mac (01:18:25):
Yeah, it was like she had access to that in a moment where
she didn't have access to muchelse and God was able to remind
her of that verse, and then ithelped with that pivot.
It reminds me of Alex when hesaw the car yeah, I was just
immediately reminded Shout outto Alex John 316.

Adam (01:18:44):
He's really the star of this episode.

Mac (01:18:48):
That's good practice and, of course, there's lots of paths
.
You pick a passage that wouldhelp you know, anchor you to
Jesus's forgiveness.
I really thank you guys forjoining us today.
I hope you enjoyed this episode.
I really thank you guys forjoining us today.
I hope you enjoyed this episode.
Next time we are going to beginto talk about some concrete
steps that get us moving alongthe process of forgiveness.

(01:19:09):
After fixing your eyes on Jesusand attending to his example
and receiving his forgiveness,what does it look like to now
take concrete steps towardsforgiving someone else in the
way of Jesus?
So we're going to unpack thefirst step during our next
episode.
Hope you'll tune in.
We'll see you next time.

Adam (01:19:30):
Praxis is recorded and produced at Crosspoint Community
Church.
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