The Hidden Crisis of Human Trafficking

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Human trafficking is a hidden crisis in our communities, but knowledge and awareness can empower us to fight back. On this special episode of Praxis, we have Brianna Saxer from Zeteo Community joining us to shed light on this urgent issue, particularly in Wisconsin. You'll hear Brianna's compelling story of how she transitioned from massage therapy to becoming a dedicated advocate for survivors of sexual exploitation and human trafficking. Learn about the realities that go beyond sensational media portrayals and discover practical steps you can take to recognize and prevent trafficking in your own community.

Together with Brianna, we explore the subtle signs of grooming and exploitation. Through relatable anecdotes and expert insights, this episode emphasizes the need for compassionate care and awareness in various settings like schools, churches, and workplaces. We also highlight the critical role of digital safety and share real-life stories that underscore the importance of educating children and teenagers about online risks.

This episode is a call to action for our community at Crosspoint and beyond. Whether you're a parent, educator, or simply someone who wants to make a difference, there's something here for you. From personal stories to actionable advice, we aim to educate and inspire you to get involved in this vital work. Listen, learn, and consider how you can contribute to the fight against human trafficking. Stay tuned for more episodes, and don't forget to visit our website for additional resources and ways to connect with organizations like Zeteo Community.

Mentioned in this episode:

• Zeteo Community
• Safe House Project
• Join The Movement (Toolkits for teens and parents)
• More About Survivors: Rebecca Bender, Theresa Flores and Sula Lael

Episode Transcript

Katie (00:02):
Welcome to Praxis, a podcast where we explore how to
practice and embody the way ofJesus in our everyday lives.
Thanks so much for taking thetime to listen.
So today is a bonus episode.
We're hitting pause on ourcurrent series where we've been
discussing how to cultivate ahealthy church culture, so that
we can take some time to talkabout the work that God seems to
be inviting us to be part of asa church community in the area

(00:25):
of human trafficking.
Human trafficking is a massiveproblem in our world today and
it's actually a huge problemhere in Wisconsin.
The issue of human trafficking,and specifically sex trafficking
, exists in every county acrossthe state, and we believe that
this is an area of injusticethat truly breaks God's heart
and, as God's people, whatbreaks God's heart should break

(00:45):
ours.
We also believe that God is atwork in the world to right all
that is wrong and that we, thechurch, are invited to be part
of that work.
So over the last couple ofyears, a growing number of
people in our church communityhere at Crosspoint have
developed a burden to make adifference in this area.
They've been experiencing thisrestlessness or an unsettling of

(01:07):
sorts in their spirit, and it'sled to a conviction that they
can't ignore what's happening inthe area of human trafficking,
and that has led them to getinvolved to actively resist it.
And so, as this group has takensteps to faithfully follow
God's leading, we as a churchhave gotten connected to an
organization called ZateoCommunity.
Zateo is a group that's doingincredible work to fight the

(01:29):
evil of human trafficking andsexual exploitation in Dane
County, and today we interviewedBrianna Saxer from Zateo to
learn more.

Mac (01:38):
Yeah, and before we jump into that interview, I just want
to maybe share a few things,say a few things at the top here
.
One is that our primary goalwith this episode is education.
The first step towardscombating human trafficking is
to educate people on it andbuild more awareness, and you'll
hear that sort of theme in ourinterview.
I'll confess that until Briannacame to our church and gave a

(02:02):
presentation earlier this year,back in February, I knew very
little and had a lot ofmisconceptions, I think, on this
topic, and so I found herpresentation incredibly
enlightening and equipping, andour hope is that you'll land in
a similar spot after listeningtoday, just feeling more
educated and equipped.
And I also think if you'relistening and you're not part of

(02:23):
Crosspoint, you're just likekind of a fan of Praxis and
listening.
That is the reason you shouldkeep listening, because it's not
just about the group that'sdoing work in our community.
This is about education.
We'd love for you to walk awaymore educated and equipped.
So that's the first thing.
Our goal today is to educateyou.
Second thing is, if you are partof our community, we hope
you'll prayerfully considergetting involved, so we have

(02:46):
what's called a kingdomcommunity forming around this
work, and we're going to saymore about that later on in this
episode, but I would justencourage you right at the
forefront, to create an openposture, open to how God might
be speaking to you as you listenin on this conversation and how
he might be inviting you to getinvolved.

(03:07):
So, even if that means pausingfor a second and just praying
for openness, I would encourageyou to do that.
And then, finally, I want toprovide a trigger warning.
I'm learning how to be moretrauma-informed as a pastor and,
toward that end, I want toprovide a trigger warning for
our listeners before we diveinto any content today.

(03:28):
If you or anyone close to youhas experienced some kind of
abuse or exploitation, thecontent of this episode might be
particularly triggering for you.
And if that's the case, youhave our permission and
encouragement just to skip thisone and pick up on our next
Praxis episode.
All right, so that's all I wantto say by way of introduction.

(03:49):
Let's jump into this episode onhuman trafficking with Brianna
Saxer from Zateo welcomeeveryone.

Katie (04:15):
My name is katie and I am mac.
Now, brianna, welcome.
Is that who you want?
Is that how you like topronounce it, brianna?
Am I saying it right?
Yeah, okay, yes, so I believeyou are joining us from steven's
point today, is that right,correct?
Yes, okay, so I okay.
I sort of have two specialconnections with Stevens Point.
The first is that both of myparents went to UW Stevens Point
and they met there.
That's awesome, so that's kindof cool.

Mac (04:37):
It was love at second sight .

Katie (04:39):
Yeah.

Mac (04:41):
I'm just joking.

Katie (04:42):
Yeah, I feel like it's sort of a I don't know fun part
of my family history.
But then also, before I workedat the church, I worked at UW
System, the University ofWisconsin System, and so I got
to travel to UW-Stevens Pointfor meetings and trainings and
things and I thought it was sobeautiful.
Yeah, I was surprised.

(05:03):
It is a really cute area.
Maybe I shouldn't say I wassurprised, but I guess I just
didn't think much about it.
When I got there I was likethis is a stunningly beautiful
campus.
It's woods, the buildings arebeautiful and old.
They have this character.
I just really liked the campus.
Yeah, when you said surprised.

Mac (05:20):
It seemed sort of like you were expecting something less
which could come off ascondescending.

Katie (05:24):
Yeah, I don't know that.
I had expectations.

Brianna (05:29):
Okay, yeah.

Katie (05:35):
But my lack of expectations were filled in
positively Moving on.
So we've gotten to know eachother just a little bit.
You came to visit this atCrosspoint last winter, but our
listeners may not know you, sowhy don't you start us off by
just sharing a little bit aboutyourself?
Tell us about who you are, yourfamily and maybe how you got
into this work?

Brianna (05:48):
Yeah, of course.
So I'm Brianna Saxer and, asyou mentioned, we live in
Stevens Point.
We have only been living hereabout five years now.
I'm originally born and raisedfrom the Chicago suburbs and we
moved up to Stevens Point fromSt Charles, illinois.

Mac (06:05):
Okay, time out, time out.
So where do you land on thesports stuff?
I mean because you're inPackers country, now you know.

Brianna (06:15):
I am not going to lie.
So I am a Bears fan and a Cubsfan at heart.
I'm sorry to offend all thePackers and Brewers people here.
Yes, however, one of my goodfriends that I used to work with
in Chicago her husband pitchedfor the Brewers, I think two
seasons ago, so Jake Cousins, soyeah.

(06:38):
So I was cheering for him whenhe was here.
I think he's with the Yankeesnow.
Okay, we'll take that.

Mac (06:45):
Well, we just lost about five listeners, but that's okay,
I know, I know I'm sorry, butmaybe you gained a few.

Brianna (06:52):
Yes, yes, yes, but yeah , so that is my heart.
My dad probably would disown meif I said that I was a Packers
fan, but I do enjoy watchingfootball in general.
So when the Packers are notplaying the Bears, I am cheering
them on.
So I'm not like, yeah, we canbe friends.
Yeah, exactly.

(07:14):
But yeah, we moved here.
My husband is a firefighterthat's what brought us up here.
So he is a firefighter inWisconsin Rapids and we have two
boys, so AJ is 15 and Isaac is12.
And so, yeah, we love it uphere.
Similar experience to you.
When we moved up, I had no ideawhat to expect, and we really

(07:36):
do love it here.
It's a great community.
There's so much like naturepreservation and I think that's
kind of.
I've acknowledged that inWisconsin in general it's way
better than Illinois and we justlove being outside and just the
historic nature of a lot ofwhat we have here is.

(07:56):
I absolutely love it.
So it's a good community to bein.
I work in down in Madison withan organization called Sateo
Community.
We are a nonprofit that isbuilding long term residential
programming for survivors ofsexual exploitation, and so I
have been in this line of work.

(08:16):
Prior to moving up here, I wason staff with an organization in
Chicago that did very similarwork called Naomi's House.
In Chicago, that did verysimilar work called Naomi's
House, and I started there in2016, right when they were right
at the ground level prettysimilar to where Zateo Community
is at right now and I was onstaff and worked directly with

(08:37):
the women.
I was a direct care supervisorand I absolutely loved it and I
got into that really very much aGod story and I'll make it, you
know, a quick synopsis, but Iactually was a massage therapist
for 13 years.
I specialized in how traumaaffected the body and got into

(09:01):
that because of some of my owntrauma and abusive relationships
in the past and really justloved helping people try to heal
from their trauma somatically,because that is a huge part of
healing, and so in that, whenNaomi's House was getting up and
running, I was like I reallywant to be involved.
I was planning on volunteering,attended a volunteer

(09:24):
orientation, loved it, and, as Igot to know Simone, the founder
there, she just encouraged meto think about applying to be on
staff and it was not on myradar at all.
I did not think that that isnever in my wildest dreams did I
think that's where God wasgoing to take me.
And lo and behold, that'sexactly where he took me and

(09:48):
fell in love with it, and Icould really relate to the women
in a lot of ways.
When you've come out of abusiverelationships, you understand
how it really does shake you toyour core in a way that other
things just have a hard timetouching, and understand how it

(10:09):
really does mess with yourperception of reality, your
perception of self, yourperception of God, your
perception of otherrelationships, and how easy it
is to just get sucked intosomebody else's narrative of
your life and your experiencewhen you're in that relationship
.
And that was a relationshipthat from the outside, looking

(10:33):
in, nobody would have noticed.
Nobody did notice and we were achurch going couple.
People within our friendshipsand within our lives really had
no idea until the truth came outand things got so bad that it
was unavoidable.
So that experience and thattestimony of how God shaped my

(10:56):
life through that has reallyjust been a building block to
where he's led me and whatpurposes he's had for me and
helping other women who havecome out of similar and worse
situations and knowing thatthere's hope on the other side,
that this doesn't define you.

(11:17):
It is just part of your storyand it shapes you, but it
doesn't define you.
So that's kind of how I gotinto this line of work, and I
really love empowering otherpeople with the information to
be able to not only healthemselves in a compassionate
and loving way that really ismodeled throughout scripture,
but is oftentimes struggled tolive out in our society and in

(11:50):
our communities, and so justbeing able to empower people
with those tools and thoseresources is what I love to do.
So, yeah, yeah.

Mac (12:00):
Oh well, I am so excited to have you with us today.

Katie (12:04):
I have a question before you move on.
Okay, I have a question beforeyou move on.
Okay, I have a question for you, brianna.
When you said somatic therapy,did any of that include cold
plunging?

Brianna (12:14):
That was not a thing that people talked about much
back then.
However, I did do hot rock andcold rock therapy, which is
pretty similar in terms of, like, you put that along the spine
and along your nervous to kindof reset your nervous system.
So there was hot and coldtherapy, but cold plunging was

(12:34):
not a thing people talked aboutwhen I got into that line of
work, but it is very much asomatic experience.

Katie (12:40):
Yeah, max is a big cold plunger.
He just got some fancy, so yeah, max a big cold plunger he just
got some fancy.

Mac (12:47):
Yes, I.
I started a couple of wintersago like every morning walking
outside in the freezing cold andnothing but my boxers, and then
I'd plunge in this tub.

Katie (12:54):
Well, it was like a trough right.
Yeah, pretty much.

Mac (12:56):
And um, and it totally reset my body in some powerful
ways, and but I was very muchreliant on the weather to bring
the water temperature down andjust recently I bought a water
chiller and now I have a coldplunge in my house and I do it
every day.

Brianna (13:15):
so I love it.

Mac (13:17):
That's awesome yep, I'm a little weird but well,
apparently you're part of.

Brianna (13:22):
I don't think it's weird, yeah.

Mac (13:23):
Yeah Well, all that to say, I am really excited for you to
join us today.
When you came this past winterand gave your presentation, I
learned so much.
I learned a ton, and one of mybiggest takeaways was just how
important education is in thisconversation.

(13:45):
I remember in one of the littlepackets you handed out it
talked about CPR and how.
In like the 1970s, CPR wasn'treally a thing and so people
didn't really know what to dowhen there was an emergency the
same way they do now.
And so CPR training startedamong medical professionals, and
then from there it broadenedand now almost everybody knows

(14:08):
at least something, at leastpart of it, when there's a
medical emergency.
So it very much starts witheducation, and you just know so
much about this.
So I'm excited to have youeducate our audience today.
But let's start with thisquestion what is human
trafficking?
Because in your presentation Iknow I realized very quickly I

(14:30):
had a much too narrow definitionof what it is, so maybe let's
just start with that.
When we use this phrase humantrafficking, what are we talking
about?

Brianna (15:02):
Yes, so human trafficking is a very, as you
mentioned, it's a very broadscale.
It exists on the spectrum.
It covers everything fromindentured servitude to labor
trafficking to sex trafficking,so there are lots of different
avenues in which that fallsunder.
So a lot of people immediatelytend to think of sex trafficking
when they hear humantrafficking, but there are so
many other facets to it and ifyou, it depends on where you
live in the world and yourcommunity, which one is more
common or which one may show upin different ways.

(15:22):
So labor trafficking is one ofthe biggest ones throughout the
world and that is a major, majorissue.
Even in terms of like thefarming communities, labor
trafficking is still a hugeissue and gender servitude
exists in terms of like, maybesomebody comes from a different

(15:44):
country but they say you know,if you work for me for this
number of years, similar to likethe, I wasn't trying to get you
know, so it's that if you dothis I will give you xyz, but

(16:09):
then that xyz never comes.
There's always something moreto pay off, another debt to get,
and it just keeps adding up.
Um, and there's noaccountability.
There's no like.
Hey, you said it was going tobe this and now it's become this
.
It's all a lot of times underthe table, very disguised, and
this can even exist withinfamily systems too.

(16:30):
So this isn't just like astranger exploiting somebody.
This can exist within a familyor an extended family, and that
is it's far more common thanpeople realize within family
systems.
Even so it is.
It's a pretty broad network.
Sex trafficking is a part of it.
Labor trafficking is a majorpart of human trafficking, as is

(16:54):
like the indentured servitudeand forced labor.

Mac (16:57):
And how would you go about, like noticing that you know in
a community, if you're saying,hey, this is super common that
you know in a community, ifyou're saying, hey, this is
super common, like I remembersitting in your presentation,
being like what you know, kindof like yes, so one.

Brianna (17:14):
It depends on where you are encountering the person
being exploited.
So, depending on whether you'rea first responder, or whether
you work in a school, or if youwork in a church, or if you work
at a grocery store, or ifyou're, you know, working at a
salon, you're encountering thesepeople in different aspects of

(17:35):
their lives and so the red flagsare going to be able to point
out and be like I think thatperson is being trafficked.
A lot of times people arehiding in plain sight because
it's not like they're wearingsomething different or

(17:58):
identifiable in some way, shapeor form.
Um, there are the red flags.
More show up when you arewithin a relationship or you're
encountering this person on aregular enough basis.
Now, if you are, that's not tosay like if you're going to a

(18:18):
shopping center and you see twopeople walking together and she
seems to be disengaged, not ableto speak for herself, that
could be an abusive relationshipor it could be exploitation.
It's really hard to tellwithout the context of knowing
those individuals.
It could be that that personalso is struggling with

(18:43):
dissociation and not present atthe moment, or having severe
anxiety or depression, likethat's where it's really hard to
just identify, not knowing theperson and just saying that
person's being trafficked.
There's been some scenarioswhere I've been like the library
, or hotels, common places whereor hotels, common places where

(19:10):
meetups happen, you know publicplaces where I've seen some
things, where I'm like thatlooks a little fishy, you know
something feels off here, andI've called local police and
said this is what I saw.
I'm not sure if you want tokind of patrol the area and see
what you see in the days to comeor weeks to come, because
there's patterns.
Again, hotel, service industry,those are people who see it all
the time and may not evenrealize it.

(19:31):
So it depends on where you'reworking and how you're
encountering these individualsUber drivers, that's another one
.
There's different training andred flags depending on how
you're living your life andwhere you're encountering human,
other human beings, really, um.
So there's all sorts ofdifferent resources out there,

(19:52):
like there are trainings forfirst responders, there are
trainings for teachers, thereare trainings for nursing and
hospital staff, um, and you canaccess these, you know,
available a lot of times online,like safe house project.
They have so many differentresources.
Locally there's an organizationcalled join the movement JTM.

(20:13):
Um, she's in Wisconsin, hername is Dawn.
She's created so many differenttoolkits depending on what you
know, what line of work you'rein or where you're volunteering
and serving.
So those are just some, someoverviews of how it may not be
easy to just be like thatperson's being trafficked.

(20:33):
You know it's not likeobserving a kidnapping, you know
.

Mac (20:37):
Right.

Brianna (20:52):
However, there are things if you're in the context
of a relationship where some Iknow this person or see them
regularly enough for instance,if my kid came home and or one
of their friends came over andthey suddenly had a bunch of
designer items they'd never hadbefore that to me would raise a
red flag Because, within sextrafficking industry
specifically, a lot of timespimps or traffickers will pay
for or give or entice those thatthey're exploiting with high

(21:15):
price items, and this is twofoldit draws in a buyer for lack of
a better term at a higher pricebecause this person has a
status that that buyer might beinterested in.
So if they have coach, if theyhave Dior, if they have designer
items that they wouldn'tnormally have, I would ask some

(21:38):
leading questions.
Be like hey, where'd you getthat?
And if the answer seems off tome, or is like, hey, where'd you
get that?
And if the answer seems off tome or is like, oh, one of my
friends got this for me, or myboyfriend or girlfriend got this
for me, I would be like howdoes that person have access to
the money to give that to you?
So you'd ask them leadingquestions.

(21:58):
If someone who's typicallyreally engaged, like, as a youth
group leader, somebody who'stypically engaged or has a
certain and may not even beengaged in the typical sense,
but at least showing up andbeing present and suddenly they
start pulling away or shuttingdown or having a change in

(22:20):
character.
And this is what's tricky is atteenage years.
Those can be normal teenagedevelopments or they can be red
flags.
And that's where asking, that'swhere relationship really comes
in.
Asking those questions,stepping into those difficult
conversations without judgmentand with concern, you know being

(22:42):
like, hey, I, I see thesethings help me understand what's
going on.
This is this isn't what I'veseen from you in the past and
I'm trying trying to understand,you know.
So entering with curiosityinstead of shame, um, and so
there's just we have these indanger cards, um, through the
table community, you can accessthem on our website and it just

(23:03):
kind of goes through a littleexplanation for some of these
things.
But it really does depend onhow you're encountering the
individuals and whatrelationship you're in with them
.
But I would really encourageanybody who works with youth
please get educated and aware onwhat it looks like within your

(23:25):
demographic, whether you're ateacher or you're a nurse, or
whether you're a youth groupleader or simply a parent or
aunt and uncle or grandparent.
Trafficking happens among adults.
However.
Statistically, most victims andsurvivors said that they began

(23:46):
being exploited between the agesof 12 to 14.
So it starts very young andthen continues on into adulthood
, or it becomes so normalized tothem that they don't realize
that it's a problem or it'sabuse or it's exploitation.
Again, as I mentioned, likewhen you're in that type of
relationship, it messes withyour reality.

(24:08):
It messes with how you perceivethe world and yourself within
it.
So from the outside, looking in, somebody might be like how
would they think that that'snormal?
Well, if it starts at adevelopmental age, it is very
easy to think that this isnormal.
For instance, at our event thatwe held in May, we had a

(24:28):
survivor leader, sula Leal.
She is amazing speaker, writer.
She has a book.
Her exploitation began when shewas a toddler and she had no
identification for the fact thatthis was a problem and this was
not normal.
And so when you grow up and thepeople closest to her had no

(24:50):
idea it was happening, it washappening within the context of
a babysitting, so her mom wasgoing to work and dropping her
off and thought that she wassafe and fine and everything was
good.
And it was not.
And so this is the danger is ithappens behind closed doors, so
hidden away, and the kids oftenexperiencing it don't know that

(25:14):
this is what they'reexperiencing, they don't
understand that this isexploitation, and so that is why
not only educating ourselves,but educating the youth on what
this looks like, not only toprotect themselves, but also to
identify it in their friends.

Mac (25:29):
Now I know that Zateo focuses on sexual exploitation
specifically, so it's a muchbroader thing.
Before we transition and getinto what that like that
definition and how to spot it, Iremember you sharing a story
when you were here about laborexploitation and you visiting

(25:49):
like a salon and having likewhoa, this is happening right
here.
I'm wondering if you couldshare that, just to give our
listeners like a concrete storyof here's how to kind of open
your eyes to it.

Brianna (26:00):
For sure.
So this happened when I livedin the Chicago suburbs.
I was going to get a mani-pati.
I had gone to the same placefor many, many years and most
people there did not speakfluent English, but it was close
to my house, they always did agood job, it always seemed clean
, I didn't see any problems.

(26:21):
I didn't see any problems.
And when I, at this point intime, I was aware of sex
trafficking and not of labortrafficking, and I had gone to a
training and started tounderstand that that was
different than my definition ofsex trafficking.
And so, showing up that day, I,or as I was in that training, I

(26:42):
started going through oh, mygosh, my, the person who always
does my mani pedi really neverspeaks to me, doesn't really
make eye contact, just ask whatcolor, um, and just goes about
her business.
Um, also, I was never allowedto give her the tip directly.
Um, I always had to give it tothe gentleman who owned the
salon at the front.

(27:02):
It always had to go, all moneyhad to be changed through his
hands.
And so I started raising mygosh, I've been going to this
place for years, never thoughtabout this, never.
I was like oh, he's the manager.
He handles the money.
He'll give her the tip later,like no big deal, kind of like
you know, if you're going to therestaurant, like if I'm putting
the tip on my credit card, Idon't think about the fact that

(27:25):
my waitress or waiter may notget that.
You know, um, and and that'sanother place.
Restaurants can also be a placewhere labor trafficking takes
place too.
So just something to thinkabout, um and so as I went in
for my mani pedi that day, um, Ijust was like I'm just going to
ask a couple of questions.
I always went to the same girl.
She always did no, it was thesame person every time.

(27:46):
So I built a relationshipenough with her over the years
where I was like I'm just goingto, instead of tuning out, I'm
going to start to ask a fewquestions without raising any
problems, cause that's anotherthing.
You have to be careful thatyou're not drawing attention to
them, cause that can put them indanger by their exploiter.

(28:07):
So, as we were sitting there, hewas nowhere around at the time.
So I just was like hey, you'vebeen working here for a long
time, do you like it here?
You know, like I'm so glad thatyou're still here, like kind of
approaching it from thatperspective.
And she was like oh yeah, I'm,you know I, she doesn't speak
very good English, so it wasbroken English.
Essentially she was saying I'vebeen here a long time.

(28:29):
I said do you have any plans,like now that you've been here a
while, getting establishedbecause this was like five years
now what your next steps are?
Do you know where you're goingto be or are you going to school
or anything like that?
And her aunt long and shortanswer was my uncle brought me
here and so I am paying him backfor bringing me here.

(28:49):
So she's working for her uncleand again, as I mentioned in the
training and I'll explain thisa little bit people can use
terms of uncle or aunt or familymember and they may not be a
biological aunt or uncle orthing, so it's hard to know if
they truly are family or if itis just a term um used, you know

(29:13):
, of familiarity, you know, um,and this happens even in the sex
trafficking industry,domestically, all that kind of
stuff, um.
So essentially what I'mgathering is her uncle is the
owner.
He brought her over here.
She's working for him for anundetermined amount of time to
pay off a debt that is reallydifficult to name or weigh, you

(29:35):
know, um.
And so then I at the end Ipurposefully tried to give her
the tip to see, well, maybe I'vejust gone along with it, maybe
she will take it.
She's like oh no.
And she got really nervous,like oh no, and then directed me
to give it to her uncle and Iwas like, okay, this meets, you
know, three or four of the redflags that I should.

(30:00):
So I did end up calling ourlocal law enforcement and I said
I don't know if you guys do anyinvestigations along this line,
because it does depend on whereyou live how they handle those
investigations.
I'm like, but this is somethingthat I'm concerned about.
I've recently gotten sometraining in I'm not sure if you
have any prior, you know tips onthis particular salon, and so

(30:24):
they did take the informationand as far as I know, and as far
as I know, it has changedownership.
I don't know what that meansper se, but it was investigated,
it was taken seriously, andsometimes you can't just go in

(30:44):
there vigilante and changethings up.
You do have to sometimes leavethings to the people who are
trained to handle the cases, andthat can look different
depending on your area, whetherit's local law enforcement, or
if you have an anti-humantrafficking task force in your
area or a human traffickingdetective in your area.
Try to find out whospecifically handles those cases

(31:05):
, because just calling a generaltip line, sometimes it can get
lost in the mix.
So figuring out who locallyhandles those types of cases is
really key.

Mac (31:15):
Adam, that feels like an important word for you because
you're prone to going intoplaces flipping tables, you know
.

Adam (31:21):
Yeah, it is what it is.
I was not sure where that wasgoing.

Katie (31:27):
I thought you were going to ask him to figure it out and
put it in the show notes.
It was totally off.
I love it.
Okay, so Zateo focusesspecifically on sex trafficking,
right, yep, but when I before Iwent to the presentation that
you gave here, when I hear sextrafficking, I think like the
movie Taken Like big, dramatic,sensationalized but I know that

(31:50):
it's often not sensationalizedlike that, as you already kind
of alluded to.
So maybe you can just kind offill this out for us a little
bit what does it look like more?
I'm sure those types ofsituations do happen, but more
often.
What does it look like?

Brianna (32:05):
Yeah.
So to flesh that out a littlebit yes, kidnapping does happen.
However, statistically itaccounts for about 1% of human
trafficking cases, so we'relooking at a.
I know it's a very smallpercentage and this is part of
the issue of survivors andpeople currently in exploitation

(32:26):
not identifying themselves asexperiencing it because it
doesn't look like what they seeon TV.

Katie (32:31):
Even the people experiencing it aren't
identifying it as trafficking.
Yeah Wow.

Brianna (32:36):
Exactly so.
This is where education reallyis so key, not just for us out
in the public, but for thisinformation reaching survivors,
this information reaching peoplewho are currently being
exploited.
I can't tell you how many timesI've spoken with a survivor who
has, just recently, or evenwithin the context of that

(32:58):
conversation, just understoodthat what they had experienced
was exploitation or sextrafficking.
So this is I never want todiscount the fact that some
people have that experience ofbeing kidnapped, being taken
against their will.
It does happen, but it is sucha small percentage that if
you're only looking for thatsmall percentage, you're going

(33:20):
to miss so many more, especiallyin our community of Wisconsin
and the community of America ata broader level is it is far
more relational.
So this might look like theyhave a boyfriend or girlfriend

(33:43):
who has said okay, I am going totake care of you and I'm going
to cover everything for you andI love you and everything's
going to be okay.
Traffickers prey onvulnerability.
So whatever your vulnerabilityis, whatever anybody's
vulnerability is, whether thatbe having a hard time paying

(34:05):
bills, whether that be emotionalinsecurity, whether that be
self-image, whatever thatvulnerability is traffickers are
really really good at figuringout and identifying that and
then playing to thatvulnerability Like I am going to
be here for you.

(34:26):
Nobody, everybody else, hasabandoned you.
I'm never going to leave you.
I'm never going to.

Mac (34:31):
You know, whatever it is, whatever that promises lots of
promises 100%.

Brianna (34:40):
And then they're like oh my gosh, this is my dream
come true, this is the personI've looked for, this is the
person I've been praying for,even Um.
And suddenly, once they're inthat relationship, it's hey,
I've done all this for you, Ineed you to do this for me.
And that can look like hey, wehave all these bills that are
due.
You're doing X, y, z.

(35:01):
I can't cover all this.
I'm going to need you to go.
I set you up with this app.
I'm going to need you to gomeet this person.
Sometimes they might not evenknow what they're going to meet
that person for until they're inthat situation, and sometimes
it looks like drugging againsttheir will and they have no
memory of it.

(35:22):
One story I tell in the humantrafficking awareness 101 that I
came to Crosspoint for isthere's a survivor here from
Wisconsin.
She told her story and she wasexploited by a friend who she
had a crush on once.

(35:42):
One time it happened and hedrugged her.
There was rape involved withother people.
They took pictures and shedidn't know it, and so what
turned from an abusive situationbecame exploitation.
They said if you don't do thisagain, if you don't do what I
say I'm going to share thesepictures throughout the school.

(36:04):
I'm going to share thesepictures with your family.
I'm going to share thesepictures with your dad's boss.
And so then it was well.
I have to do these thingsbecause I don't want anybody to
know what happened to me,because they think they're to
blame.
They think they did somethingwrong.
I shouldn't have gotten in thecar with him.
I shouldn't have gone in thehouse with them, I shouldn't
have whatever it be.
We blame ourselves, and that'sa coping mechanism of when I'm

(36:30):
not in control, the world feelsreally scary, if I can say I did
something to make this happen.
It makes us feel more incontrol, so that is a survival
mechanism that then ends upworking to our disadvantage.
And same thing in abusiverelationships.
If I hadn't said this, hewouldn't have done X, y, z.

(36:51):
If I hadn't have done this, myparent wouldn't have whatever
the, you know, whatever theoutcome is.
We blame ourselves because itgives us a sense of control.
And so that's what happened withher.
She was exploited for a numberof years and nobody knew until
her family moved away and itdidn't happen again.
She never spoke of it until shewas an adult and was like that

(37:17):
was sex traffic, like I was sextrafficked.
This happens even in thecontext of marriage
relationships, of visual imagesbeing shared against their will
or without their knowledge, andpeople might recognize them from
wherever it's being shared andthen the whole truth comes out.
And so sex trafficking can looka lot of different ways and a
lot of times it's relational andit can happen within family

(37:41):
systems.
So this is the one where itfeels the most shocking to
people or the most appalling,maybe, and all sex trafficking
is appalling, but when you hearof a parent trafficking their
kid or an aunt or uncle or asibling, something about that
relationship feels more sacredto some degree and therefore it

(38:06):
feels a little more guttural inour response of like that can't
happen as often as you think itdoes, but statistically it
accounts for 30 to 50% oftrafficking survivors.
Is family, within a familysystem, trafficking happening?
And, as I mentioned earlier,with some survivors it can
happen so young that it's notreally identified as trafficking

(38:30):
within their lives because it'snormalized, it's just a part of
their experience and they don'trealize what they've been going
through.
And this happens to boys andgirls A lot of times.
People our society tends tofocus on girls being exploited
more than boys, but within oursociety as it stands right now,

(38:53):
the number of boys beingexploited is quickly catching up
to the number of girls beingexploited.
Hmm.

Mac (39:01):
Yeah, and it seems like a common feature.
Maybe two common features areone vulnerabilities and then
maybe the exploiter preying onthose vulnerabilities by
grooming them in some way.
Yes, Is that right?

Brianna (39:16):
Yes, Yep, that is absolutely correct.
So the grooming process cantake anywhere from a couple
conversations to a couple weeksto sometimes a year to sometimes
a year.
You know, it just depends onthe context of the relationship
and um, and maybe how thetactics they're using to gain

(39:38):
the trust of their victim.
Um, and so it can.
One of my favorite books, um,written by a survivor.
It's called In Pursuit of Love.
It's written by Rebecca Bender,um and she um, um.
Her story is that she met.
She was single mom, met a boyum or a guy um, and she was

(40:00):
living at home with her family,had a great family system um
support system around her.
She was top of her class, super, not somebody you would
identify as being vulnerable inthat sense.
But she lacked.
She wanted somebody to love her.
You know she wanted thatrelationship.
She wanted a father for herdaughter and he came along and

(40:25):
just basically swept her off herfeet and her family all loved
him Like it was not somebody youwould expect.
And then he moved her out forhis job, moved her with him out
to Vegas and within 24 hours ofbeing there he trafficked her um

(40:47):
.
She had no idea where she lived, she didn't have her
identification.
He had control of her daughter.
He basically took her and said,hey, it cost me this much to
move you here.
I've been supporting you, I'mgoing to continue supporting you
.
This is how we make this work.
And just, she had no idea whatthat meant until it was too late
.
Um and so, and they were in arelationship.
For it wasn't a quick you know,like they had been dating for a

(41:08):
significant amount of time inwhich her family had met him,
like she felt, like she knew him.
So this can happen quickly orit can happen over a longer term
.

Mac (41:17):
And with that story you alluded to earlier, with the
young woman who was raped, andthen pictures were taken and
then those pictures were sort ofused as leverage.
If I remember correctly, thatstarted with someone kind of
like inviting her over for helpwith studies, right, it was kind
of like in a school context.

Brianna (41:41):
It was in a school context, so not for studies.
And I'm going to pause for asecond because I want to give.
I always want to give survivors.
She has shared her story withinthe state of Wisconsin, so I
want to.
I have her name here, so I wantto make sure that I am able to
give her story the credit itdeserves.

(42:01):
So give me just a second.

Katie (42:03):
We can always put anything in the show notes too.

Brianna (42:06):
Yes, exactly, sorry, I need to figure out where I have
this in here.

Mac (42:11):
No, that's fine I just remember there was a grooming
piece that was eye-opening forme around.
There was obviously anintentional effort to isolate
her right.

Brianna (42:21):
Yes, exactly so, it was as simple as she got a ride
home.
So that was, she had a crush onthis boy, um, and he asked her
if she wanted a ride home.
Um, so, teresa Flores, there itis.
Um, so she's a survivor here inWisconsin.
Um, I just wanted to make surethat I gave that the credit it's

(42:51):
due.
But, yeah, so, teresa Flores,she has shared her story and she
, simply, a boy that she had acrush on, gave her, said I'll
give you a ride home.
And when he started going thewrong way, red flags were raised
and then they pulled up to ahouse and again she was like,
uncomfortable, but all it tookwas him saying I like you.

(43:13):
And that was enough for her togo.
This guy that I like likes me,you know, and as a teenager,
like, sometimes that's all thevalidation you need in a given
moment.
And, and so that was enough toget her inside the house of like
, oh, okay, I want to hang outwith him.
Never in her wildest dreams andshe think that would like.
Cause they drugged her withouther knowledge.

(43:34):
Um, so drugging can be done ina Coca-Cola, it can be done in a
Sprite, it can be done in awater Like it is really easy to
cover up that taste.
It doesn't have to be withinthe context of having an
alcoholic drink, and so she justwas having a soda and was
drugged and exploited and hadpictures taken of her.

Mac (44:01):
You know I've got three kids, three boys.
My oldest is going to be afreshman this year in high
school and then my second one isin that awkward stage of middle
school, which is super fun.
But part of this is learning tohave conversations with my kids

(44:22):
so that they're aware of howsome of this takes place.
I know we have a lot of parentswho listen to this podcast,
grandparents in our congregationthat spend time raising their
grandkids.
What would you say I know you'vealluded to.
Here's some of the red flags topay attention to, but could we
double click there and just fillthat out a little bit more for

(44:43):
the grandparents, the aunts anduncles, the parents who are
listening in.
Here are some things you reallywant to be aware of as you're
raising your kids.

Brianna (44:51):
Yeah, the first thing, like red flags are good to be
aware of.
However, the conversationsleading up to that are really
where the gold is Um giving,empowering your kids, your

(45:22):
grandkids, those within you know, those that you lead in
whatever capacity that feelssafe or looks safe or that
somebody else may trust.
They're not going to, they'regoing to dismiss any red flags
that they might feel in theirgut and in their heart because,
well, somebody else trusts thisperson.

(45:43):
Or my mom and dad said thisperson is okay, or other people
in my friend's group don't havea problem with this person.
So I'm just being weird, youknow.
So if we empower the youth, thekids, with the tools of how to
identify unsafe behavior andgrooming tactics, that is key

(46:04):
and this can start from a prettyyoung age.
I've been having conversationslike this with our kids.
As I mentioned, I have a15-year-old son and a
12-year-old son and I've beenhaving conversations with them
about unsafe talk and unsafebehavior from adults and peers
from the time they were two,three, four, like and it's eight

(46:26):
.
From the time they were two,three, four, like and it's eight
.
Talking to them in an ageappropriate level of hey, if
somebody comes to give you a hugand you're not comfortable,
it's okay to say no, thank you.
You know, if somebody is havinga conversation with you and
you're not comfortable with thecontext of the conversation,
even though they're an adultyou're in a kid you can say I

(46:52):
need to use the bathroom or Ineed to.
You know I need to take a break.
Or hey, I got to go get my mom.
You can find a way out of thatconversation.
And even if that adult getsangry at you for leaving the
conversation, it's better tohave them be angry at you
temporarily than dismiss anyfeelings you're having.
Because if you learn to dismissthat discomfort, you will
continue dismissing that whenyou're older, even if you were

(47:14):
wrong, even if you'reuncomfortable in that
conversation, for whatever rhymeor reason.
Like, say, you know somebody istalking to your 15 year old and
like oh, do you have agirlfriend?
You know who are you datingthese days?
And your son's like I'muncomfortable with this.
They don't have to yell at theperson, they can just say yeah,
yeah, and then walk away andcome get you and say this made

(47:36):
me uncomfortable.
I'm not really sure why, butthis made me uncomfortable.
So it doesn't even have to be ahuge red flag that they're
avoiding.
But they're learning to listento when they're uncomfortable.
They're learning to identifythat and come, get somebody they
trust.
And that is key to be able topause and step away from

(47:58):
conversations or people orcontexts that they feel
uncomfortable in.
And they're not given that tooland given that permission from
a young age, they're going tohave a hard time implementing it
later and so having those andif you have teenagers and you
miss that boat and are like Ididn't have those conversations
when they're young, what do I donow?
Have an honest conversationwith them now.

(48:20):
Just be like hey, this issomething I'm learning, we're
learning together.
I don't have all the answers,but has there, you know,
whenever you're in aconversation or in a context or
in a relationship, when you feeluncomfortable, I hope you know
you have permission to walk away, whatever, whatever the context

(48:40):
is, and this can have.
I mean, I've heard ofsituations where it was youth
group leaders who were theabusers, and so this is like.
This is really important toteach kids because they might
think that they're in a saferelationship or in a safe
context of like this adult issupposed to be a safe person for

(49:01):
me a teacher, whatever that isthey need to know that not
everybody who comes across assafe may be safe to them, and so
just being able to identifythat and have that conversation
and again, doesn't mean our gutinstinct is always 100% right,
but we learn to listen to it Um,another tool to give them is

(49:22):
teaching them about internetsafety.
So, whatever your rules are onsocial media, there's so many
different ways predators can getahold of our kids that we can
have all of all of the tools,all of the boundaries and all of
the rules in place, and yetthere may still be ways for

(49:44):
people to gain access to ourkids, our grandkids, those
within our care, and so if we'renot having the conversation of
hey, this is why we have thisrule, because here's some things
that happen in real life.
One story I tell in our humantrafficking awareness training
is when my older son was 12.

(50:05):
This was during the COVIDpandemic.
So he was.
Everything was on lockdown.
The only interaction he hadwith his friends was through his
phone.
We had a lot of boundariesaround it.
We even have a system calledthe Bark Alert, which I highly
recommend to any parents outthere, anybody taking care of

(50:25):
kids.
Basically, it works in thebackground of your kids' devices
and alerts you when there issomething fishy or something
that like, for instance, if myson texts me I have a headache
and I say, hey, go take someibuprofen, I get an alert on
myself.
So, like, that's how good it is.

(50:47):
So he was on, he was playingAmong Us with his friends and he
one of the girls in theconversation had a friend that
she invited into play.
All the kids in this groupthought this was an in real life
friend, thought that she knewhim.
That the story was.
He went to the neighboringmiddle school and so everybody

(51:09):
just thought he was an in reallife friend Over the course of a
couple weeks of this personinteracting with them in
non-alarming ways.
Like I said, I have this barkalert set up.
I had never gotten any alertson this person whatsoever.
All of a sudden one night hesaid I'm spending the night at
my aunt's house who lives nearby.

(51:29):
You guys, we all should sneakout and meet up at this park
that was just down the streetfrom us.
I get a bark alert and my soncomes to me because he also
knows what red flags to look forof like, hey, this person I've
never met in real life also isnow enticing me to come sneak
out of my house without myparents permission at night,

(51:50):
like if he's staying at hisaunt's house.
Why can't we all meet up thereduring the day, when our parents
are home and know where we'regoing?
You know, um, and I'm I'm alittle uncomfortable because,
again, I don't really know thisperson.
This feels weird, um, and so,needless to say, bark alert
Alert came up.
We have a conversation.
I then am able to have aconversation with this girl's

(52:12):
mom hey, did you know she'sdating this boy?
This is his name.
Do you know him?
No, did not know she was datinghim.
Do not know him in real life.
We're able to call the localpolice.
Turns out he was a40-something-year-old man from
about half an hour away.
Was he a trafficker?
I don't know.
Was he a predator?

(52:33):
Most definitely.
So.
This is the way it happens, isthey build themselves into a
friend group where everybody nowtrusts this person and assumes
well, so-and-so knows them.
Well, so-and-so knows them.
Well, they know about thesepeople from this school, so they
must really be from here, youknow, and they know enough
information to sneak in underthe radar and then build into

(52:58):
that familiarity, thatrelationship.
They think they have afriendship with this person or
relationship with this person.
So, training our kids in whatto look for, and it's not about
scaring people, it's not aboutgoing to your kids and saying,
oh my gosh, we're destroying alldevices.
Like this is the worst.
You're all going to getkidnapped, like somebody awful

(53:19):
exists online.
These are the realities, butit's about empowering them with
the right tools to know what tolook for so that they feel safe,
coming to you when somethingfeels off and being able to have
that conversation regularly.
You know, every week we do asocial media check-in and our
kids have a lot of rules aroundwhat social media looks like and

(53:41):
how they're involved online,but that doesn't mean it's
learning how to use the toolsthat are available to them in
the context of I have a safeperson to talk to about this,
and so we have a check-in likedid anything happen this week,
whether in person, or didanything happen this week where
there was a conversation thatyou were uncomfortable with?

(54:01):
Are there any conversations yourfriends are having that you are
uncomfortable with?
And this can pertain again toreal life and so, and online and
so and it's not a you need totell me or you're going to die.
It's a let's share these things, let's process these things,
because sometimes things thathave happened aren't dangerous
but are uncomfortable.
Or sometimes it's a yeah, thatis a weird conversation that

(54:25):
person had with you.
Let's go have a conversationwith them and figure out what's
going on.
You know, do we need to drawother people into this?
And so, like, for instance,that conversation with that girl
, do we need to draw otherpeople into this?
And so these are the things ofthe more empowered our kids are
to identify the red flagsthemselves, the more they're

(54:47):
going to invite you into thatconversation.
Because it's not a I'm going toget in trouble.
It's a.
My parents are aware of thisand want me to be aware of this.
We're working together as ateam to keep me safe.

Mac (54:57):
Yeah, like, what do we do about this?
Um, I would say about once amonth I get a text from someone
who could.
Their entry point is kind oflike texting and it's like hey,
wrong number, kind of a thingand then yeah.
And then the follow-up is likewell, where do you live and can
we be friends?
And you're like, yeah, knock itoff yeah you have gotten some.

Katie (55:20):
yeah, oh yeah, yep, I think those are really good
tools that you covered, andmaybe related, would you add,
just giving your kids language.
What I hear you saying is howthis normally happens is
grooming, and grooming isinsidious, and so in order to

(55:54):
combat and protect against that,we have to sort of make sure
that we're extra aware oftrusting our instincts, what
feels uncomfortable, but itsounds like increasing that
awareness.
Pivotal to that awareness ishaving language to be able to
name when something doesn't feelright, or even knowing what's
right and and and wrong yes, andto pull out.

Mac (56:14):
Something else I'm noticing that she is describing is a
relational trust and regularconversation, so that we're just
normalizing.
It's not, it's you're notresponsible for when this stuff
happens.
It's going to happen and weneed to be able to talk and we
need to be able to talk about it.
We need to be able to identifyit and talk about it and tag
team it together.

Brianna (56:31):
Without shame.

Mac (56:32):
Right.

Brianna (56:33):
Exactly, yeah, exactly.
I mean just another personalexample.
We had somebody in our liveswho was charged with grooming
and somebody that our kids knew,and so we were able to have a
conversation and be like, hey,we were not anticipating this
from this person.

(56:53):
I know you're not in contactwith them all the time, but this
is somebody you know.
How does this make you feel?
Did you ever have anysituations with this person that
you may not have identified atthe time but now, in hindsight,
have?
We've had this conversation soregularly that it didn't feel
weird, it didn't feeluncomfortable, it was just

(57:14):
normal conversation of like thisis happening and let's talk
about it, and even likesubsequently in one of my son's
appointments thereafter.
Our younger son is autistic, sohe has therapy regularly and
his therapist said do you knowwhat grooming means?
Like, do you know what isautistic?
So he has therapy regularly andhis therapist said do you know
what grooming means?
Like, do you know what thatmeans?
And he's like oh yeah, and hewas able to like, rattle off an
accurate definition becausewe've been talking about this

(57:36):
since he was young, you know.
And so this is giving themlanguage to be able to explain
and identify, and that's onereason our 12 year old was like
he would never have done thatwith me because I know too much,
you know.
Like that was his actualresponse.
Like you might be right, likeyou don't come across as
somebody, like that would be asafe victim, because you do know

(57:58):
a lot.
You know this would beidentifiable to you and so does
it completely safeguard andbubble wrap our kids.
No things could still happen,but it gives them tools to be
able to empower themselves,because we're not there 100% of
the time.
God is, but we're not, and sowe cannot promise that we can

(58:20):
keep our kids safe 100% of thetime.
But we can say, hey, I'm goingto give you this tool so you can
use this, so you can help keepyourself safe in certain
situations, so you can identifywhen something may be dangerous
and even if you're wrong, it'sokay.
It's better to be safe thansorry.

Mac (58:39):
Well, it's just been so fun to have you on as a guest.
I love the work that you'redoing at Zateo Community.
My understanding is that wordZateo means to seek in order to
find.

Brianna (58:53):
Yes, I love that, yep, and it's directly from Scripture
when Jesus says you know, seekfirst the kingdom of God.
So that seeking with thepurpose of finding it's not just
a wandering, it's not just a Ihope I'll find it, it is.
I'm seeking this, knowingstanding on the promise that God

(59:14):
has just wanted us to find,this you know that God has put
it in front of us.

Mac (59:20):
So, yeah, yeah, I love the heart behind that and the work
you guys are doing.
Thank you so much for beingwith us today.
Just real quick for anybodywho's listening.
How can they stay in touch withyou?
Support Zateo.
We're going to have more to sayabout that after our interview
ends, but how could people stayin touch with you?

(59:42):
Yeah, for sure.

Brianna (59:45):
So, depending on like, if you have questions, just in
general, you can email me.
It's Brianna atZateoCommunityorg and that's
B-R-I-A-N-N-A at Zateo.
Info at sateocommunityorgEither one.

(01:00:12):
If they just have questions orinquiries, if you're looking to
get involved, you can go to ourwebsite.
There are so many differentways to get involved.
We have a tab at the top thatsays get involved and whatever
that looks like for you.
If you're not local, definitelyreach out.
There are, you know,organizations nationwide.
I would highly recommendlooking at safehouseprojectcom.
They have so many greatresources and so many ways to

(01:00:34):
get involved.
And if this is something that'son your heart, pray about what
God may want you to do, becauseoftentimes we look for answers
that are already there, like howdo I get involved with things
that already exist within mycommunity, which are great?
However, in this realm of humantrafficking, sex trafficking,

(01:00:56):
labor trafficking there are.
So there's so much work left tobe done and God may have
something specific for you to dothat you may not have been
thinking about.
So when I look at so many ofthe different organizations and
things that are out there, itstarted with a.
You want me to do that, why,you know.

(01:01:17):
So pray about what it is Godmay want you to do, because it
may be something outside the box, maybe something you weren't
expecting.
And so, yeah, we serve apowerful God who has such a big
heart for those who areexploited, and he wants all of
us to be working in His kingdomin some way, shape or form.
So this isn't a sideline sport,you know.

(01:01:41):
So get on the field, but figureout what position God has you
in.

Katie (01:01:45):
Beth Dombkowski.
Awesome, and I'm sure we'll putthe website in our show notes
too.
But I out what position God hasyou in.
Awesome, and I'm sure we'll putthe website in our show notes
too, but I wanted to mentionZeteo, z-e-t-e-o right, yes, yes
, awesome.
Well, thanks so much forjoining us, brianna.
This was awesome.
I know I learned a lot and Iknow that others in our
community will really appreciateeverything that you shared.
So thanks, thank you.

(01:02:16):
Thank you so much for having me.
This has been great.
Well, that was a greatconversation.
I really enjoyed listening toBrianna when she came here back
in February and I learned evenmore just now, so we hope you
enjoyed the conversation as well.
If you are listening andwondering, okay, I've learned a
lot, but now what can I do?
Or feeling invited to getinvolved in some way, why don't
we walk through just somepractices?
What would you say?

(01:02:37):
Mac are some of the stepspeople could take if they want
to dive in deeper.

Mac (01:02:40):
Yeah.
So this first one is, I think,primarily for those who are part
of our church community.
I know we have listeners beyondour community, but for those of
you who are part of Crosspoint,I would say number one is you
can join our kingdom community.
So we're starting a kingdomcommunity around human
trafficking and I shouldprobably give a quick

(01:03:01):
explanation of what a kingdomcommunity or a KC is.
Very simply, it's a group ofpeople who are committed not
only to one another but tojoining God's work in the world
in some specific area.
And it's obviously that secondpart joining God in a specific
area that makes that is sort ofthe heartbeat of a kingdom
community.

(01:03:22):
We have tons of groups of peopleat our church who come together
but they often don't have thatoutward facing.
Here's where we're joining Godat work and those groups are
great.
We have small groups wherepeople are supporting one
another and studying scriptureand all that's awesome.
But a KC is specificallyfocused on doing life together
toward a specific end and we'vegot a handful of them at our

(01:03:43):
church.
We've got mentoring KCs forkids in our school district.
We have a racial peacemaking KCand we're doing work around it
with an organization calledBridge Builders, to rehabilitate
neighborhoods all sorts ofgreat work but we have a group
of people who have been feelingan increased burden around this
area of human trafficking andhave been in relationship with

(01:04:05):
Zateo, and now we have a largergroup of people that are coming
around, coming together to formrhythms of how can we support
each other and support this work.
And so, if you are listening inon this conversation and going,
man, my heart is stirred up.
Don't ignore that.
We have a group of people thatare sharing that burden, sharing
that passion and wanting to dosomething about it.

Katie (01:04:26):
So I forget who they should contact.

Mac (01:04:28):
So you know um.
I forget who they shouldcontact, is it?

Katie (01:04:30):
Stephanie Boguszewski and Kevin Knutson my parents are
part of that group, actually andthey just got through that book
that she mentioned um in searchand pursuit of love.

Mac (01:04:39):
I think she said it was called yeah.

Katie (01:04:40):
They're reading through that as a Casey right now, and
then they're exploring how to beinvolved with Citeo.

Mac (01:04:45):
Yeah, so I mean they're doing some educational work
together as a group, so growingin that regard and also figuring
out how they can better beinvested and engaged in the work
.

Adam (01:04:54):
You can find these groups on our website, by the way, if
you're interested in that.

Katie (01:04:58):
Yeah, maybe another practice is just talking to
family and friends.
We talked a lot today about theimportance of awareness.
If you're married, start, youknow.
Start by talking to your spouseso that the two of you are on
the same page.
Talk to your kids so that theycan stay safe.
If we want she mentioned that,the starts, what she said like
the 14, like 12 to 14 typicallyI mean that's crazy to me.

(01:05:20):
So if we want our kids to beable to understand when
something's happening that feelsweird to them or makes them
uncomfortable again, they needto be able to identify and trust
those instincts and havelanguage to be able to name it
and tell someone.
So I have a couple of books Iknow I mentioned.
I have a couple of books I readwith my kids.
I don't know if we can putthose on the show notes, but
just like kind of starting witha basic understanding of how to

(01:05:43):
talk to younger kids about this.
I think spreading awareness,not only to protect your kids
but even their friends, like beaware of signs, so that you're
just increasing the overallknowledge base and empowering
those younger than us to be ableto kind of know what's
happening and identify anythingthat might be problematic.

Mac (01:06:06):
Yeah, and my kids are a little bit older than both of
your kids.
You know, my oldest is 14 andthen we have 12.
And, dude, cell phones arechanging everything and we know
this.
But like, in some ways, it'sgreat I can especially as my
kids are involved in moreactivities, like I can contact

(01:06:28):
them about when we're pickingthem up and there's just ways to
communicate, like all of thatis really great.
But, man, there's a whole othershadow side to phones and
technology that just raise allsorts of concerns and you've got
to be able to haveconversations with your kids
around naming and being able toname and identify and have some
awareness around those puttinglimits on what they can do.

(01:06:49):
Maybe some parameters.
She mentioned Bark.
You know we're able to trackour kids like where are they?
There's Life 360, justdifferent things that you
probably should have in place ifyou have young kids who have
cell phones to know where theyare, what they're doing,
check-ins around social media.
You know our kids don't havesocial media.

(01:07:10):
At this point they're startingto bother us about it because a
lot of their kids are.
It's crazy to me as I talk withour kids, most of their friends
have social media and have zeroparameters around it.
Yeah, so it's just it's.
I don't know if we're doing itentirely right.
I think we're trying to err onthe side of being a little bit
more conservative about whatwe're giving our kids permission

(01:07:31):
to do, just because of all theways that it can go wrong.
But trying to educate our kidson don't talk to people you
don't know, limit how muchyou're on your devices, all of
those things you got to startearly before it gains momentum
and kind of spirals out ofcontrol.
Indeed, I'm scared for that yeahit's not fun and you know, the

(01:07:51):
more I'll just name this, themore I talk to parents who have
kids who have cell phones, themore it really comes down to
modeling for them.
You know, I can't tell you howmany times I myself or talking
to a parent they're like, yeah,I don't want my kid on their
phone, but then it's like I'm onmy phone, so you've got to

(01:08:12):
model an appropriate.
If you want your kids to havean appropriate relationship with
technology, you have to takethe lead on modeling kind of
what that looks like, all right,and then, finally, I want to
maybe share just a practice oran encouragement.
If you're not part of Crosspointand you're just a fan of Praxis
and so on and Brianna mentionedthis but figure out what's

(01:08:35):
going on in your location.
We're doing the work here, butwe would encourage you to start
doing the work wherever youhappen to be.
And again, it starts witheducation.
You can educate your churchstaff, your volunteers, your
congregation, your family, yourkids, and then perhaps there is
an organization like Zateo thatyou could partner with in your
area, and so I'd reallyencourage you to look into that.

(01:08:58):
So, maybe, big picture, to kindof close out, you guys and you
heard Brianna tear up a littlebit as she talked about this but
God is a God of justice andwe're to be working with God in
the world toward that end, andtoday we introduced some of the
work that we're trying to do inthe area of human trafficking,
so that you can be more educated, but also, as Brianna

(01:09:20):
challenged, you to prayerfullydiscern, if you're to be part of
this work alongside of us.

Katie (01:09:26):
Yeah Well, thanks for joining us today.
We hope you enjoyed today'sepisode as much as we did.
Next time we're going todiscuss another nutrient we can
put into the soil to create ahealthy church culture.
We hope that you'll continue totune in.

Adam (01:09:41):
Praxis is recorded and produced at Crosspoint Community
Church.
You can find out more about theshow and our church at
crosspointwicom.
If you have any questions,comments or have any suggestions
for future topics, feel free tosend us an email.
Also, if you enjoy the show,consider leaving a review and if
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