The Value of Church Community

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What if the quiet exodus from American churches is reshaping the very fabric of our communities? Join us on Praxis as we explore the Great Dechurching, where over 40 million adults have stepped away from church attendance in the last quarter-century. This significant shift raises questions about what individuals miss by leaving church life and how it impacts their spiritual and communal experiences.

Church communities offer unique spiritual and communal fulfillment, inspired by the early church model in Acts 2. We address the vital role these communities play in fostering generosity, support, and a shared sense of purpose. By engaging with diverse groups of people, churches provide a nurturing environment that challenges and enriches personal growth. Personal stories illustrate how intergenerational relationships within these communities contribute to spiritual development, highlighting the importance of engaging with others to refine character and deepen faith.

We delve into the transformative power of communities centered around Jesus' teachings, offering support and guidance in maintaining Christ-like values. This episode invites listeners to reflect on their faith journeys, emphasizing the profound impact of communal connections in navigating life's challenges.

Episode Transcript

Josiah (00:02):
Welcome to Praxis, a podcast where we explore how to
practice and embody the way ofJesus in our everyday lives.
Thank you so much for takingthe time to listen.
Today we are continuing aseries on what some experts are
calling the Great Dechurching.
We are currently living in thesingle greatest religious shift
in American history.
Forty million adults who onceattended church no longer do so,

(00:25):
and most of that change hastaken place in the last 25 years
.
The result of this de-churchingis more than just diminished
church attendance the seismicshift is dramatically reshaping
the communities we live in.
So why are people leaving thechurch?
What exactly are they missingout on, and what does it look
like to engage the de-churchedin a Christ-centered way?

(00:45):
Answering these questions iswhat we're setting out to do.
We believe this is a discussionthat needs to take place within
our churches, because if we'reto be faithful followers of
Jesus in today's landscape, wemust figure out what it looks
like to engage a de-churchedculture.
So today we're going to spendsome time talking about some of

(01:05):
the things that people might bemissing out on when they are not
a part of a church community.
So let's do it.

Katie (01:23):
Welcome everyone.
My name is Katie.
And I'm Mac and I'm Josiah Allright, so it's October 31st as
we're recording this.

Mac (01:31):
Adam's birthday.

Katie (01:32):
AKA Adam's birthday.

Josiah (01:34):
Mr Halloweeny.

Katie (01:35):
Yeah, mr, that's right.
He's sitting here in afull-fledged costume to
celebrate.
I'm just kidding, he's not.
It's a tradition, but I have tosay it is not even November and
I have started my Christmasshopping.
Oh wow, it seems like the BlackFriday deals get earlier and
earlier every year.

(01:55):
This year there was what.

Josiah (02:00):
Prime day.
Like mid-October, there's abunch of prime days.

Katie (02:03):
Yeah, I guess Black Friday wasn't really a thing.
You know, when we were kids itwas like you had Thanksgiving
and then Thanksgiving dinner andthen it was like 5 am the next
morning the stores would openand then it moved to like
midnight and then it moved tolike right after Thanksgiving
dinner and we had a tradition inmy family of getting up really
early and going to those storesand I loved it.
It was really fun.

(02:23):
My mom would always go, I'dsometimes go with her.
But now it feels like thatdistinction doesn't really exist
anymore.
It just sort of like salesthroughout the year and when is
it Christmas shopping versusjust shopping?
But I really enjoy shopping forChristmas.
I'm here for the early deals.
I love it.
I know I'm kind of unique or ina minority in that.
So unique or in a minority inthat.
So where are you guys?

(02:43):
Are you on the like I don'tstart thinking about Christmas
shopping until December 23rd, orare you thinking about it like
me, on Halloween?

Mac (02:54):
Well, I would like to distinguish between thinking
about it and doing it, because Ilove to give gifts.
Yes, I love it.
We do know that about you.
Yeah, I love to think gifts.

Katie (03:04):
Yes, I love it.
We do know that about you.

Mac (03:06):
Yeah, I love to think about what someone would like.
I like to pay attention, andthen I just love the process of
getting something that's uniqueto them that they might really
enjoy.
But I'm not so.
I have ideas.
I have some great ideas for mykids.
I have some great ideas forJosie.
I've been paying attention.
We do some exchanges in myfamily.
I have some great ideas forJosie.
I've been paying attention.
We do some exchanges in myfamily.
I've been thinking about that,but I haven't started actually

(03:30):
shopping for it yet.
You know what I mean.

Katie (03:34):
You're thoughtful about it.

Mac (03:36):
I'm thinking about it and I've got some great ideas, but
I'll pull the trigger closer toChristmas.

Josiah (03:42):
I experience gift giving very stressful why?

Mac (03:48):
just because they may not like it.

Josiah (03:51):
I just don't.
I don't have an instinct forwhat would be a good gift, so I
overthink it a lot and I'lleither over buy or I'll under do
it.
Either it'll be reallypractical or it'll be way over
the top and I don't do well.
If there were other appropriateways to just express my love

(04:17):
and affection for people in mylife, apart from gifts, I would
do it 10 times over.
I don't know, it's juststressful to me.
It certainly can be.
But, mac, I know you love agood deal as much as I.
Over, I don't know, it's juststressful to me.

Katie (04:25):
It certainly can be, but, mac, I know you love a good
deal as much as I do.

Josiah (04:28):
I do.

Katie (04:28):
And I will say one thing about starting early is you're
able to kind of time like overthe years I've been able to time
like okay, I know this isn'tthe best deal, like I know this
company and they're going to geta better deal.

Josiah (04:37):
See, that's part of the stress.

Katie (04:39):
It's like a rush, except when you buy the thing and then
it does go more on sale.
Oh yeah, it's the worst.
And then a week or two later,there you sit.
Yeah, that would be bad, yeah.

Josiah (04:51):
Yeah, I don't care about any of that.
If I want something, I justwant to get it, and if someone
needs something, just get it.

Mac (05:01):
I don't like the stress of all the maneuvering.
I do like a good deal, but Idon't like getting swept up into
the timing.
You know what I mean.
If I come across a deal and I'mlooking awesome.

Katie (05:11):
It's probably not good to be obsessed.

Josiah (05:14):
I wouldn't, say that I'm obsessed.

Katie (05:18):
I'm mindful of how much mental energy I put in, but I
appreciate knowing when the bestdeals are and be able to get
something for someone that'smeaningful for them at a good
price.

Mac (05:29):
The other part of this for me is I have some convictions
around, like when it's too earlyto really start trending
towards Christmas.
So like you know we've donethis before with like hey, when
is it a solid to start listeningto Christmas music Like now is
not the time.
You know, like Oh's definitelythe time.

Katie (05:44):
Yeah, that's kind of what I was hoping to provoke in that
question.
I have no shame towards itbeing too early.

Mac (05:50):
Clearly.

Katie (05:51):
Yeah.

Josiah (05:52):
Honestly, the only thing that affects my desire to want
to start listening to Christmasmusic early is the weather.
It's been hot.
It was 70-some degreesyesterday.
Yeah, it made me upset, but Istill listen to Christmas music
anyway.

Katie (06:07):
You did.

Mac (06:08):
Oh wow, we put up our tree, probably like the weekend after
Thanksgiving, and that's when.
I'll rip out the Christmasmusic and we'll rock that
through the holidays.
So that's just me.
You guys can do your thing.

Josiah (06:22):
Yeah, I do, like all the nostalgia, all the feelings of
Christmas.

Mac (06:26):
Well, speaking of gifts, today's podcast hopefully will
be a gift.
We are in a series right now onwhat's being dubbed the great
de-churching.
Right now in the United States,we're experiencing the largest
religious shift in all ofAmerican history.

(06:47):
It's estimated that roughly 40million people who were once
connected to a church, meaningthey attended church at least
one time a month, have now leftthe church and they're going
less than once a year.
And this mass exodus hasoccurred all within the last 25
years, so a pretty compressedtime period.
And just to put this inperspective I was doing some

(07:09):
math on this more people havede-churched, uh, in the last 25
years than the highest populatedcity in the world.
You guys guess what the highestpopulated city is in the world?

Katie (07:21):
uh, hong kong, tokyo Okay .

Mac (07:24):
And so that's 39 million and that includes, like the
greater Tokyo area, that number,maybe to put it in the United
States, this is larger than theentire population of California,
which is also 39 million people.
Or to maybe bring it home tothe Midwest, this would be like

(07:46):
all the people from Illinois,michigan, ohio and conduct
Kentucky combined.
Okay, we're talking about a lotof people.
This is a massive number ofpeople.
It's more people.
More people have left thechurch in the last 25 years than
all the people who came tofaith during both the great
awakenings and Billy Grahamcrusades.

(08:07):
All of that combined, so it's abig deal.
Um, the religious landscape ofthe United States is just
shifting dramatically.
Um, we see it, and many in thechurch are reeling.
This is, uh, for many, this isdisorienting.
The church the church in theUnited States at least has gone
from being sort of the majorityto now increasingly a minority.

(08:30):
The church has gone fromholding a place of honor in
society to now more of a placeof dishonor.
Whereas the church onceexperienced widespread
acceptance, it's nowexperiencing rising hostility.
And so in the last episode, weattempted to capture some of the
primary reasons why people arede-churching.

(08:54):
We tried to do that honestlyand provide sort of a thick
description or explanation ofeach one, and we offered some
affirmation there's some thingsthat we really want to affirm of
why this is happening.
Some legitimate things arebeing pointed out and we offered
some challenge along the way.
But today we want to ask thequestion okay, in light of that,
are people missing out onanything?

(09:15):
Right, for those who have leftthe church, what might we say
they are missing out on?
If anything, and I don't know,I feel like we've had some
conversations behind the scenesthat might be helpful, just to
kind of like I don't know putout there around how we're

(09:37):
posturing ourselves in thisconversation, like we're
bringing a posture to thisdiscussion that I think matters,
like we're bringing a postureto this discussion that I think
matters, and okay.
So, for instance, I was in aleadership team meeting last
week and Katie, your dad, pulledout some quote from Socrates.

Katie (09:56):
Well, he was a philosophy major in college.

Mac (09:57):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I don't remember what it was,but the point was he was saying
that Socrates had thisconviction that, like true
conversation isn't about winningor proving you're right, but
rather about engaging bothparties in a way that leads to
learning and greater insight.
So the goal is mutual learning,and that's one of the

(10:18):
convictions I bring toconversations like this.
My goal isn't to win or toprove someone right or wrong.
Right it's.
I hope we're having aconversation together and for
those that listening in it mightjust create a deeper insight
and learning.
Does that make?
sense.

Josiah (10:35):
Yeah, yeah, I think another, I guess, conviction on
how we orient to this issue orthis topic is that it is much
more than just a topic.
Katie kind of alluded to itlast time in our last episode,
but it's really easy to hearthose numbers and just see
faceless people, but all of usmaybe some of you even listening

(11:00):
today, would find yourselvesinto the categories, like find
yourself in those de-churchedcategories that we discussed
last week, and so if we're goingto do this in a Christ-centered
way, we need to put faces tothose faceless numbers.
Right, these are real people,people that we know and love.
I'm sure that if you'relistening and you're a part of a

(11:21):
church community, all of uscould think of people that maybe
once were part of one andaren't, and so yeah.
So we're going to avoid thebroad strokes, assumptions and
judgments in order to be curiousand compassionate towards
people who have left.

Mac (11:39):
Yeah, there's some expectation setting I think
we're doing, because I couldimagine some people who are
maybe firmly committed to achurch listening in and being
like, okay, this is wherethey're going to really stick it
to them and tell them whatthey're missing out on, and we
are going to name some thingsthat in our opinion they might
be missing out on.
But to your point, josiah, thatthese are actual people.
I was thinking about this and Irealized, when I started to

(12:01):
think about the people that Iknow personally who have
de-churched, these are peoplethat I really love and think are
quite incredible.
So there's no like internalanimosity to go oh, here's my
chance to kind of stick it tothem or put them in their place.
Most of the time, when Iconsider the people I know who

(12:24):
have de-churched, I have genuinepositive feelings towards them.
I can empathize with some ofthe maybe reasons that they've
left and part of me is like, oh,I wish you would come back,
because you're exactly the kindof person that I'd love to have
in our church community.
These are awesome, incrediblepeople who have a lot to

(12:45):
contribute, and part of thereason why they left, I think,
as we continue to go through, itis because we're actually not
living into the very things weshould be.
So I just wanted to name that.
If you're de-churched, maybe Iknow you, maybe I don't, but my
guess is, if I did, I would loveyou.
You know what I mean.
Have I would love you.

(13:06):
You know what I mean.
Have a strong affinity for you,and my genuine desire is, like
man, you could help our churchbecome a more mature presence
and embody the way of Jesus inthe world.

Josiah (13:13):
Yeah, yeah, we can have a strong conviction about how
people are meant to live incommunity with each other, and
that strong conviction, combinedwith our love and, you know,
affection for the people in ourlives who are de-churched, means
that we are like, you know.
It does cause us to say justwhat?

(13:33):
What you're saying like I wouldlove to have you here, it's not
a, it's not a, it's not, it'snot my job to like try to give
you a bunch of conviction andmake you feel really bad and
hopefully, like guilt you backinto church.

Katie (13:45):
This is not what this conversation is meant to do or
win an intellectual argumentaround.

Josiah (13:50):
It's just try to convince you to get back.
This is us saying we'rediscussing all the reasons why
church community is not justobjectively important, but it's
also important to us and we loveand care about you, and so we
want to be able to talk about itin a way that isn't trying to
leverage you back, but isessentially saying this is what
we're inviting you into, yeah.

Katie (14:12):
Yeah.

Josiah (14:12):
Yeah, I think that's right.

Katie (14:14):
Yeah.
So I mean, I look around thetable and obviously, each of us
are a part of this churchcommunity.
Yes, we all work here, but Ithink it's something that we
don't just do because it's ourday job.
I think it's something that, atleast for me, I know, defines
like a big part of how I do lifewith Jesus and something that I
really couldn't imagine beingwithout.
Like, honestly, my life wouldlook radically different if I

(14:37):
didn't have this faith communityto come around me and encourage
me and challenge me, et cetera,et cetera.
So let's turn our attentionthere.
What would you guys say when itcomes to being part of a church
community?
What are some of the thingsthat you would say yeah, this is
something I really value, andwithout a church, I feel like

(14:57):
I'd be missing out on.

Mac (15:00):
I'll take a stab at the first one and I'll just confess
this first one that I'm going toname is more biblical and
theological.
It's not like versusexperiential.
I think a lot of people that Italked to who have left the
church it's rooted in negativeexperiences and so on.
So this one's more like atheological conviction.

(15:22):
That I think is super important.
But it starts with thisobservation that one of the
primary themes throughout thebiblical narrative is that God
is working with an imperfectpeople to represent him in the
world.
All right, this is the story ofscripture and if you're
unfamiliar with it we can atsome point maybe give an

(15:43):
overview.
But it starts with this guynamed Abram who becomes Abraham.
God starts with a specificindividual, says I'm going to
bless you and through you andyour descendants I'm going to
bless all people.
And so you read this messystory in Genesis of Abraham's
descendants kind of theirjourney, and eventually that
becomes the nation of Israeljourney and eventually that

(16:08):
becomes the nation of Israel.
And Israel was supposed to be akingdom of priests who
represent God in the world, somodel God's way in the world and
then are sort of a conduit ofblessing as they love and serve
other nations, and the story ofscripture is that Israel fails
on both of those fronts.
Instead of being distinct andmodeling God's ways in the world

(16:28):
, they become like thesesurrounding neighbors, so they
lose their sort ofdistinctiveness and the way
they're supposed to representGod in the world, and then they
also lose their heart for thesurrounding nations, right,

(16:56):
right.
And yet and this is what is soshocking as you read the Old
Testament and even into the NewTestament is God continues to
work patiently with this groupof people that messes up over
and over and over again.
And I often wonder, you know,like?
Why would God continue?
He could do it by himself, godcould do it all by himself, but
he chooses to invite people intoit and they keep messing it up.
Why would God do this?
And I'll be honest, I'm notsure the church has much to brag
about compared to Israel.
You know what I mean.
Like Israel, seems to be thecase that the church is also

(17:20):
missing the mark in terms ofrepresenting God and living into
the way of Jesus and alsoblessing the world.
And yet God still, you know,calls the church the body of
Christ and the bride of Christand counts us as part of the
family of God, and so I guesswhat I'm saying is a couple of
things.
One is it seems reallyimportant that God has a people

(17:42):
that represent him, and in lightof that, there's no such thing
as like Lone Ranger Christianity.
The whole idea that you canfollow Jesus apart from the
people of God is categoricallyunsupported in scripture.
It doesn't exist.
Part of following Jesusincludes being part of the body

(18:04):
of Christ, of which Jesus is thehead.
So it makes no sense to be likea dismembered toe.
You know what I mean.
Like it just doesn't make sense.
Um, so that's the first thing.
And then the second thing, orimplication of this is this that
being disconnected from thepeople of God means you're
somewhat disconnected from theheart of God.
God's heart is to have a peoplewho belong to him and are

(18:26):
joining God's work in the world.
And the church is to be a placenot of just voluntary
association where you're gettingyour consumeristic preferences
met.
Rather, it's supposed to be acommunity you belong to so that
you can better join God's workin the world.
And I guess that's my firstchallenge to perhaps some of our
listeners who have de-churchedis I know that the church is

(18:48):
imperfect.
I know it's messy, I knowthere's annoying people in it.
I'd be the first to tell you,having served in a church for
almost 20 years, there's days Iwant to hang it all up and be
done with it.
It's exhausting and it's hard,but what keeps me going, one of
the things that keeps me going,is the fact that God keeps
patiently working with me.
And God doesn't have to do that, and God continues to work

(19:15):
impatiently with you know,patiently with imperfect people,
and so that includes you too.
And I don't know.
I just sometimes hear this airof superiority among those, some
of those who have left thechurch not everybody, but they
sort of cast shade on some ofthe messy people that they had
to interact with in the church,as if they're, like you know,

(19:36):
above that.
And again I get it, there'smessy people in the church.
I don't want to minimize themess, but I will say this let's
not pretend that you're somehowless messy.
Yeah, like you're part of theproblem too.
Let's just acknowledge that ifyou find a perfect church and
then you show up, you're goingto mess it up.
We all would.
So this isn't just a churchthing, this is like a humanity

(19:59):
thing.
You know what I mean.
God bears patiently with all ofus, and I just see jumping.
Some people are jumping shipbecause it's just too messy and
I want to go.
Well, timeout.
This is actually part of whatit means to embody God's way in
the world, which is to like,slowly and in a committed way,
work with imperfect people.

Josiah (20:19):
Yeah, and to the I don't want to say to the credit, but
I guess to validate some of theconcerns of why you would jump
ship is I don't think that theAmerican church has been
well-discipled into thismissional framework of what it
looks like to be God's people,right?
And I think that's when, likewhen things get pressed and you

(20:46):
know, you just name like hey,I'm a pastor, I've committed my
life and devoted to this, andthere's days I want to hang it
up.
Yes, but one of the reasons whyyou don't is a deep conviction
and something you've beendiscipled into as to say, no,
this is my conviction about whatit means to be not just a
follower of Jesus but a part ofa community that is following

(21:08):
Jesus, and I'm not willing togive that up because it is
foundational to what it means tobe a Christian.
And so if you don't have thatconviction, stuff gets messy,
right, like it just startsfalling apart.

Mac (21:23):
Yeah, yeah, like if we're going to care about the things
God cares about.
It's very clear that he caresabout having a people who belong
to him.
That's what I'm saying.
Yeah, and so we shouldn't takeit lightly to like um, jump ship
from being part of that group.

Katie (21:41):
Yeah, this has certainly become real to me.
I can point to a specificseason in my life, probably
close to 10 years ago, when thisstarted to make sense and
become more real for me.
I think for much of my life Ithought of my faith as just like
, okay, me and God.
I read my Bible and I go tochurch, but I go to church
primarily to worship and to heara message, and I get there

(22:05):
right when it starts and leaveright when it ends.
What about giving?
I mean well yeah, obviouslythere's that.
But when Alex and I startedgoing to our church in Madison
about 10 years ago, there's areally strong sense of missional
community there and I think itreally opened my eyes to like,

(22:26):
hey, I'm learning more about Godjust by doing life with other
people who have a deeprelationship with him but
approach life differently thanme different experiences,
perspectives, different ideasand all sorts of things and
really just pressing in with agroup of people who were
committed to causes that I mightnot otherwise be aware of or

(22:47):
exposed to, who had strugglesand issues that I wasn't dealing
with myself, and just seeinghow God met them in their life
and how I could meet them andlove and serve and learn from
them.
I had one woman I may havetalked about this before in the
podcast, but there's one womanwho at the time I was working in
politics and she kind of sawthings differently and she

(23:08):
approached me and was like, hey,would you want to get coffee?
Like I would love to just likehear what you think and why you
think the way you do and likewhat you do.
And I was like, well, this isreally different.
No one's ever approached methat way before.
And we ended up developing sucha deep friendship that I never
would have had If I wasn't partof a church.

Mac (23:26):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I guess that's the firstthing I would say is just that I
think there's actually atheological foundational piece
to church and it's connected tothe very heart and mission of
God and for me at least, I'm notwilling to like disconnect from
that lightly.
Now, I'm not.

(23:47):
I'm assuming, if you'relistening in and you're
de-churched, like it's, not likeyou're lacking a response to
this, you know what I mean.
This isn't like a mic dropmoment.
Oh, conversation's over.
How do you imagine someone whomaybe is de-churched and is
listening in thinking throughthis variable?

Josiah (24:05):
Yeah, I would say that's not what I experienced being a
part of a church and I'mprobably able to do more of the
hands and feet of Jesus type ofwork on my own and picking and
choosing the things that I'minvolved with in charity

(24:25):
projects and things like that.
Like I can find meaning andvalue in that and I don't
necessarily need to have it at achurch.

Mac (24:34):
Yeah, yeah, I was thinking about this and I realized, you
know, uh, we're going to createum space after each of these
reasons or things we thinkpeople might be missing out on,
to just kind of go how might,how might we interact with this
one?
And I was just thinking aboutthis, there's sort of an

(24:57):
overarching response, and youjust named it, josiah.
I think that each way, someonewill respond to all the things
we're going to talk about todaycenters on two things yeah, but
the church I went to didn'treally do that.
That's the first kind of piece,and maybe I don't see any
church really doing that well,so something related to yep, but

(25:18):
the church isn't doing that.
And secondly, I can find otherspaces to do those things.
Right, the church isn't the onlyplace that I can, for instance,
serve or to make a differenceor to be connected to the
mission of God.
And when you put those together, it sort of forms this one-two
punch, right, I didn'texperience that and I can find

(25:40):
it somewhere else, and I thinkwhat I would say is some of
that's true.
I think many churches aren'tdoing this very well.
I'll acknowledge that.
I do think some churches are,and I do think you can find
micro-expressions of this inother places, but as this list
grows throughout this podcast,here's what I'd say.

(26:01):
What other community can youpoint to that's trying to do all
these things we're going topoint out today?
Yeah, I don't think you'll findit.

Josiah (26:11):
You're sort of picking and choosing the elements of it
that align most with yourselfand then, but you're not getting
it all in one place.

Mac (26:22):
Yes, and of course we're going to fall short.
You know of doing all thosethings perfectly, but that's
kind of one of my responses islike the church has set the bar
pretty high in terms of what wewant to be and how we want to
live and I don't know, I can'tname an entity that is trying to
do that same thing.

Katie (26:40):
Yeah, right, yeah.
So, mac, I hear you saying thatthe church is called to be a
missional community, connectedto the heart of God.
Yeah, Another one I would nameis the church is called to be a
supportive community, where wegive and receive and go through
life together.
The first sermon I gave here onstaff was on Acts 2 a couple of

(27:04):
years ago, and Acts 2 paintsthis beautiful picture of a
Jesus-centered community andthis is really like the first
picture of a church we have.
If you're reading the Gospelsand reading about the life of
Jesus, acts 2 kind of gives usthis beautiful picture of the
early church and it shows us acommunity that's devoted to
teachings about Jesus andlearning, devoted to fellowship

(27:26):
together, devoted to sharingmeals together and praying
together.
It says they share theirpossessions to give to anyone
who had need and beyond that,they didn't even like consider
their possessions their own.
It says they held them all incommon so that they could share
and just kind of live thesegenerous lives, and I think it
just shows us that the church isa body of people that God uses

(27:49):
to meet needs, like God'sprovider.
Like you were saying, matt, godcan do it on his own.
He could provide for us, but hechooses to use people to
provide for each other, whetherthat be physical needs, prayer,
financial needs, whatever.
And it's the people doing it.
But they're not doing it ontheir own.
They're doing it through theHoly Spirit.
They're being powered by God tocome alongside each other and

(28:10):
give and receive.
That's the idea of a church.
We're giving.
What do I have that can helpsupport and edify and uplift
others?
And what do I need, which isjust a?
Really again, I think it's aunique thing.
Yes, we can give and receiveoutside of a church, but there's

(28:31):
something unique about doing ithere.
Okay, just a couple of weeks agoI received a text from a friend
from church here.
She reached out to a couple ofus to say, hey, you guys, I'm
going through.
It's a really tough season.
It's been a long stretch and Ijust really need some time to
connect with my husband.
We could really use a littleday date.
Is anyone able to watch ourkids after church for a couple
hours?
And what if someone else waslike, yeah, of course I'll take

(28:54):
your kids?
And I was like well, how coolis that?
Like it's one thing to offer tomeet someone else's needs, but
I think there's a certain levelof trust that's required to be
able to write like be vulnerableto your own need and go.
Hey, are you willing to take mykids and I just think that Are
their kids good kids?

Mac (29:10):
Yeah, they're good kids.
Yeah, yeah they're good kids.

Katie (29:13):
I would have watched them , but I had a conflict that day.
But anyways, I just thinkthere's something about real
self-sacrificial love thatexists in a church and really
can't exist outside of acommunity of people that are all
devoted and committed to livingin the way of Jesus.

Mac (29:30):
Yeah, I think of one couple in our church who you know
they're about my age, three kidslike Joe's and I, and one of
them was just recently diagnosedwith uncurable cancer.
So they're in this new reality.
That is painful and hard andsuper difficult.

(29:50):
And here's the thing is thatthis is a couple who they're
both really competent people,they're gregarious, they have
great friendships, so they havea community of people, of close
friends, that are supportingthem through this.
However, every time I reach outand have a touch of people of

(30:12):
close friends that aresupporting them through this,
however, every time I reach outand have a touch point with them
, they talk about how much thischurch community matters to them
and has been supporting them inthis incredibly difficult
season.
And I think it gets at what youwere talking about, katie.
We're not saying that the onlyplace you could experience
reciprocal and supportiverelationships is within a church
Obviously not.

(30:33):
However, I can point tocountless people who have
reciprocal relationships evenoutside of the church, but
they're experiencing somethingdifferent from the church and I
just think that matters.
I think that matters.

Josiah (30:54):
Yeah, there's a sense of connection that happens that
might be difficult to findsomewhere else, the connection
that happens as you receive careand support from other people
but also then, in turn, givethat support away to others.
There's a certain level ofconnection that happens in
relationship that might bedifficult to find through some

(31:16):
sort of program or otherorganization that tries to help.
So if we're playing devil'sadvocate for a second to say,
well, sure, that's all great,but there are plenty of places
where people can have theirneeds, provided they don't
necessarily have to go to amessy group of people called the
church in order to do so.
But I would say that I don'tknow of a place that would keep

(31:41):
you in more connection and morein the know about what is the
needs, about what the needs arewithin a group of people, than a
church community that's reallyliving into this.
So it's like we have a I mean,this is a very simple expression
, but there's a Facebookcommunity page where people who

(32:05):
are part of our churchcommunity- it's a closed group,
it's kind of exclusive.

Mac (32:09):
You have to ask to be a part of it.
No, but if you're a part of ourchurch community, it's a closed
group, it's kind of exclusive.
You have to ask to be a part ofit.

Josiah (32:13):
No, but if you're a part of our church community, you
can be a part of it, and peoplepost their needs on there all
the time and you should see howquickly people respond to those.
So, yeah, there's a sense ofcan I have my needs met and can
I meet others' needs, indifferent systems, of course,
but I don't know of a moreholistic and complete network

(32:38):
than the church community shouldbe.

Mac (32:40):
Yeah, and I guess I want to maybe deepen it just for a
second and say what's animating.
That is something that'sdifferent than just a supportive
community outside the church.
Oftentimes, in othercommunities I belong to
communities other than thechurch I find that the
relationships, not exclusively,but they tend to be a little bit

(33:01):
more a quid pro quo you do thisfor me and I'll do this for you
, and that's how reciprocityworks, not saying it always has
to be that way or relationshipscan't go beyond that.
But in the church there'ssomething else that's animating
our support of one another, andit's not a quid pro quo.
What do I get from you?
And it is the person of Jesus isanimating how we show up.

(33:22):
So people often give, not justbecause they want something in
return, it's because of the like.
The love of Jesus compels themand the empowerment of the Holy
Spirit.
Going back to what you weresaying, katie, about Acts,
chapter two, all thosedescriptors are due to the
animating power of the HolySpirit, compelling people to

(33:43):
live in such a way.
And that, my friends, I willsay to you is unique to the
church that the love of Jesus iswhat's compelling people to
sacrifice of themselves insupport of others, and the Holy
Spirit is empowering them to doso in ways beyond what they'd be
able to do on their own.

Katie (34:01):
Yeah, we're not doing it in our own strength.

Mac (34:03):
That's right.

Katie (34:03):
It's not just me being a good person.

Mac (34:05):
Right.

Katie (34:06):
There's something else at play.

Mac (34:07):
Right.

Katie (34:08):
Yeah.

Mac (34:09):
Yeah, so I can point to lots of things, whether it's
that Facebook group or our carepartners, I mean, there's just
so many ways people are showingup and it's because of their
commitment to Jesus is what'sdriving their support for other
people wanting to show up ingenerous and self-sacrificial
ways.

Josiah (34:26):
Yeah, the care and support that's being provided is
being done out of an expressionof um and uh, a reflection of
who who Jesus is, and that isdifferent from places where you
might find care and support,although loving yeah, for sure,
although loving, um, we reachedthe end of our own strength on

(34:46):
our own and uh.
Being a part of a communitywhere we can kind of take each
other in and out of ways thatwe're jumping in creates a much
more sustainable.

Katie (34:59):
Well, yeah, and like my church in Madison story, like I
think you're just going to beexposed to needs that you
wouldn't otherwise be exposed toif you were just kind of
hanging out with people that arekind of like you in your
neighborhood or your gym orwhatever.
I think, being part of a church, you're going to be made aware
of opportunities, needs thatjust otherwise you wouldn't be
seeing, they wouldn't be infront of you.

Mac (35:21):
And again to play devil's advocate, if I were sitting with
some of my friends that I knowof de-churched, they would kind
of do that one-two punch they go.
I didn't experience that kindof love and support in a church
community and I've actuallyfound it in other places, you
know, and I guess I would sayyeah, I see that I see many

(35:43):
churches failing to live intothe supportive community, the
vision of that that we'rediscussing today.
And I'm not saying you can'tfind in other places supportive
relationships.
But I do kind of want to holdon to the conviction that at
least what the church is calledto do is animated by something
different and the bar is higher.

Josiah (36:00):
Yeah, All right.
So, being a part of a churchcommunity, what are they missing
out on?
Well, the church is a missionalcommunity that's connected to
the heart of God in the world, asupportive community that is
conduits of God's supportive andprovision type of care for

(36:21):
people.
I would also add that thechurch is also an impactful
community.
So being a part of a communityof believers enables us to live
more impactful lives that reallycouldn't be fully realized on
our own.
I think there are three mainways this plays out and I want
to name them, kind of name allthree, and then we can kind of

(36:44):
unpack them a little bit.
The first is joining God's workin the world collectively
multiplies the impact we couldhave if we were just on our own.
Second, I think that itincreases our witness to a
watching world when we aretogether as a community.
And three, the church is aplace for us to discover, shape

(37:09):
and utilize our God-given gifts.
So yeah, to unpack the firstone, joining God's work in the
world collectively multipliesthe impact we could have on our
own.
I think of, like, missionsorganizations no-transcript,

(38:00):
like in our more localcommunities.
For those of you who are a partof our church, you know that we
have this whole category ofgroups called kingdom
communities and the idea is thatwe're they're more centered
around rather than just being anaffinity group.
They're centered around joiningGod's work in the world in one
in some specific way, so thatkind of becomes the, the center

(38:20):
in which we're all orientedaround.
We have one, we have one aroundhuman trafficking, sort of
trying to collectively discernwhat it looks like to be a part
of changing things in that realm.
One around racial peacemakingwhat does it look like to be a
church that is a welcoming placeand being a part of important

(38:43):
change?
And some of the other ones.
What are some of the other oneswe have?

Mac (38:48):
Student mentoring Mentoring students who lack parental
support at home Some of theother ones.
What are some of the other oneswe have?
Student mentoring yeah,mentoring students who lack
parental support at home.
Celebrate Recovery is a big one.
I mean, I think we had over 30people this past Thursday night
at Celebrate Recovery which isreally neat because it started
with just like three or fourpeople going hey, we want to

(39:09):
create a space.
We sense God asking us tocreate a space here, you know.

Josiah (39:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So ultimately that the to boilit down like the being a part of
a church community increasesthe impact you could have on
your own in various ways and andthe sustainability of it.

Mac (39:26):
You know what I mean.
Like um, again, I've been atthis church for a while and some
of the partnerships that we'vehad for a long time um have
outlasted the specificindividuals who maybe were
leading that um thing at onepoint in time.
So an individual only has somuch to give for so much time
and they might go oh yeah, well,this season where I was really

(39:46):
invested in that it needs tocome to an end, or hey, this is
happening in my life, I can't doit anymore.
And in a community, well, thatallows other people to step in
who now are part of that work,and there's an ebb and flow to
our ability to give in certainways in certain times, and then
we can't give as much orwhatever.
And so I just see maybe asustainability piece that is

(40:08):
really important as well, thatis supported by a community.
That can't happen if it's justup to me and my energy as an
individual.

Katie (40:15):
And what's the saying?
The whole is greater than thesum of its parts.
Is that the saying?
Are you guys familiar with that?

Mac (40:22):
Yeah, I think so.

Katie (40:23):
Yeah, like the idea that when you all come together to do
something, what you can dotogether is greater than adding
up what each of us could doindividually.
That's right.

Mac (40:31):
That's right.
This is kind of one of mycritiques of not all
non-denominational churches.
But we belong to a denominationand man, our collective impact
as a denomination is so muchgreater than just like a lone
church plant.
We have 700 internationalworkers in the Christian
Missionary Alliance and we'renot supporting every single one
of those right, there's no waywe could.

(40:52):
But we have a couple that we'rereally intentional about.
But together, together, we'reable to do something way bigger
than we could as just a churchby ourselves.
You know what I mean and I justthink that's neat.
You mentioned witness Josiahand when kind of a church
community has a greater sharedwitness.

(41:13):
Now there's a lot that'scompromising our witness in the
world.
The church is witness in theworld right now.
But here's a story that I thinkgets at this.
When Josie and I first startedto try to move toward our
neighbors, get to know ourneighbors, build relationships
with our neighbors, we hosted afew parties like block parties,
just cooking out and whatever,and we noticed very quickly we

(41:36):
have 14 homes on our street orneighbors' families, and a
couple of them have faithbackgrounds, but they're not
necessarily engaged on a regularbasis.
The vast majority of them do notbelong to a church and are not
necessarily following Jesus.
Okay, so my neighborhood is sortof a mission field, for lack of

(41:56):
a better word and we noticedwhen we hosted our first block
party that their norms and waysof associating sort of
overwhelmed the space.
Not in like, I don't want tolike, characterize it negatively
, I'm just saying like the waysthat they relate and showed up

(42:17):
is what defined that space, andwe ended up creating a kingdom,
neighborhood, kingdom communitywith different groups from our
church who lived near us, andone of the things we started
experimenting with is supportingeach other at our block parties
.
So just inviting a couple otherpeople from our church to be

(42:38):
present at our block partiessignificantly changed the
dynamic.
Now, all of a sudden, like theway that we do life was way more
noticeable than just Josie andI together, and so I just think
there's something about theimpact I can have.

(42:58):
The way that I might shine, forinstance, is only so bright,
but when you add some otherpeople to that who share a
common conviction around what itlooks like to embody the way of
Jesus, it's more noticeable.

Katie (43:13):
Yeah, yeah, that's a really cool example.
That's really cool.
That's yeah.
Yeah, I also heard you talkabout just utilizing our God
given gifts.
I think there's reallysomething to that.
You know we can.
I think being part of a churchcommunity not only helps us
discover our giftings, likesometimes you might not even
realize, like oh, this is anarea I'm really passionate about

(43:34):
surveying or leaning into.
But then, doing this alongsideother people who have similar
giftings, we get to edify eachother.
As we do that in the way ofJesus, we get to sort of
disciple other people that arearound us.
And again, I think there'ssomething unique about doing
that in a community that'scommitted to living in the way

(43:56):
of Jesus.
It's different than like, oh, Ireally like tennis, so I'm
going to join a tennis club.
There's something aboutdiscovering your God-given gifts
alongside people who arewilling to speak grace and truth
into your life, who are willingto challenge you, who are
willing to speak grace and truthinto your life, who are willing
to challenge you, who arewilling to kind of come
alongside you and agree to thesame set of values, and who
you've given permission to speakinto your life that way.

Josiah (44:18):
Yeah, yeah, we have these groups we call leadership
intensives and it's like a yearlong discipleship type of group
where you really press intostuff, kind of learn how to hear
and respond to God's leading inyour life, and the point is to

(44:38):
do it and then hopefully you'reidentifying leaders who are
going to go and then discipleothers in the same way.
And I can think of numerouspeople who would have never
stepped into an opportunity tolead a group who did, because
they were discipled in this wayin a church community that isn't
just here to get along and havefun but is also here to press

(45:01):
into the stuff God has for them.
And they discovered, like youwere saying, they discovered
gifts.
Maybe they didn't even knowthey had.
And here they are going fromI'll just sit back and watch
church to now I am disciplingothers and now those, and
they're multiplying disciples.
I don't think that opportunityhappens just because you joined

(45:22):
a gym.

Mac (45:23):
Right, right Now.
Again, devil's advocate.
I imagine some people might sayand I would agree with them
that the church is not the onlyplace that you can have an
impact, even a collective impact.
Right, I mean, there are plentyof nonprofits or other
organizations that you cancontribute to in ways that are
meaningful and are going to havean impact.

(45:44):
Right, tons, tons, I mean tons.
That's totally true, and at nopoint are we saying that that
isn't the case or that thechurch is the only place.
We're not saying that.
However, one thing I would pointout is that there's a
difference between cherrypicking a nonprofit or an
organization that you're goingto like, maybe, contribute to

(46:05):
financially or with some timeand energy.
That's different than being apart of a community where all of
this stuff is happening.
You know what I mean.
Like, I'm not involved, forinstance, in the.
I'm supporting the humantrafficking group, but I'm not
part of that kingdom community.
I'm part of a different kingdomcommunity.
So there's something cool about.
Hey, I feel, though, connectedto that work.
Yeah, even though I'm not, like, able to give my primary energy

(46:29):
to it.
Does that make sense?

Katie (46:31):
Yeah, it's different than just kind of going online and
saying, oh, I feel passionateabout hurricane relief and you
make a specific donation ormaybe even go on a trip, like
you're focused on that one area.
But I hear you saying, whenyou're part of a church, you're
exposed to other areas that arejust happening within the same
family.

Mac (46:49):
Yeah, there's a sense of we .
This is my family and my familyis doing this work I'm doing.
I'm parts of this work that myfamily's doing, but this is the
work our entire family is doingand I'm just proud of all of
that and even though I may notbe on the front lines of this
initiative, it still representsI feel connected, like that's a

(47:10):
we you know what I mean, yeah,yeah, I'd also say that there's
a, there's a level of trust thatyou should be able to have.

Josiah (47:18):
So I say this with a, with a caveat Um, there's a
level of trust that I can havethat, as I pool my resources and
continue to like um, pool myresources and continue to be a
part of a local church community, that I can trust that the

(47:42):
stuff that I'm doing andcontributing is going towards
helping and I'm not trying totry to cast doubt towards
contributing to organizationsthat aren't a part of local
communities or local churchcommunities.
I'm not trying to do that and Ialso know that-.
That's what I hear you saying,and I also know that not every
local church is managing theirresources in a way that you

(48:02):
could be proud of to contributeto.
So I understand that, but in theidea of us being able to
collectively have an impactthat's multiplied means that if
I contribute with my time,energy, resources and with my
own gifting and I contributeinto this local body, I actually

(48:22):
get to have a part to play indeciding how it's all used.
And I would very much doubt thathappens in other organizations.
Like I could show up to,ideally and again, not every
church this could happen, but Iknow that we make efforts
towards it all the time that Icould show up to a meeting or I

(48:42):
could say like, hey, I have someconcerns, like how are we doing
this?
Like a church that's verytransparent about how they spend
money and what they're usingtheir money on, and things like
that allows me to pool myresources, be a part of the
impact and also get to helpshape how it's used, like if I'm
, if I contribute towardshurricane relief.
That's a very broad scope andI'm not saying you shouldn't do

(49:05):
that, do it.
I'm just saying that that isdifferent than throwing some
money in a pot and walking away,compared to being fully
invested and actually being ableto have a bit to say about how
it's used right, right, okay, sowe've talked about, uh, hey, uh
, the people of god are centralto the heart of god.

Mac (49:25):
We've talked about it's.
It's a supportive communitythat's animated by the love of
jesus and the power of HolySpirit, and we just kind of
talked about the impact, theincredible impact that can
happen when we come together andwork in the same direction.
A fourth thing I think that isoften missing would be diversity
belonging to a diversecommunity.

(49:47):
Josie and I were hanging outwith another couple recently and
this couple we adore andabsolutely love and they're also
de-churched Sometime in thelast maybe five years or so they
stopped attending church and inany case, we were talking and
church came up and we have avery open relationship with this
couple.
There's not a whole lot ofcontention, like we can just

(50:10):
talk openly and honestly andnobody's gonna get puffed up or
upset or agitated.
So it's just like it's just avery safe environment to be
honest and authentic andvulnerable.
And the guy just asked mestraight up hey, what do you
think I'm missing out on?
Like we've stopped going tochurch?
Still love Jesus, got somefriends that follow Jesus too.
That hasn't changed for us, butwe just aren't finding church

(50:33):
to be an important part of ourlife and don't really feel
compelled to try to find achurch.
So what would you say?
What would you say we'remissing out on?
And he's like you know, I missout on worship.
He's kind of a musical guy, sohe's like I miss out on worship.
But that's about it.
That's the only thing I couldpoint to, and I said well, man,

(50:53):
I do think you're missing out onsome things.
The one I'm going to name,though first, is the one you're
probably going to like the least.
I said you're not having tostay committed in community with
people who are very differentthan you.
And his eyes just got kind ofbig and he's like what do you
mean?
And I'm like well, I know thepeople that you're friends with.

(51:17):
I love those people too, andyou're right, they all do care
about following Jesus and so on.
But, man, that's an affinitygroup of friends.
You're all in the same stage oflife or a similar stage of life
.
You all have a similar earningpotential.
You're the same race, you havesimilar interests, you vote the
same.
And so I just was like, man,you're not having to love people

(51:39):
who are drastically differentthan you, especially those who
maybe grind your gears a littlebit.
You know or see the worlddrastically differently than you
, and so I just think diversityis sort of a hallmark of the
church.
Again, it's central to what itmeans to be the people of God.

(51:59):
You look at the 12 disciples,for instance.
That was not an affinity groupof similar people.
You had a tax collector and azealot you know what I mean and
they're together being discipledby Jesus.
And you look at Acts 2, whichyou brought up, katie and you
see just an incredible diversecommunity that's taking shape.
You have the inclusion of theGentiles alongside the Jewish

(52:20):
folks in the book of Acts, likea major shift of broadening.
Who belongs to the people ofGod?
And this is the vision andrevelation that you'd have every
tribe, tongue and nation rightNow.
I get it.
Some churches are homogeneous.
They're just bigger affinitygroups, right right.
So that's a fair critique, Iget it.

(52:43):
Some churches are justcomprised of people are the same
ethnically, politically,socioeconomically, got that, and
that's a fair critique.
The fact is that Sunday morningdoes, uh, remain one of the
most segregated hours of theweek, and that is a shame, I
think.
Um, but the church ideallyreflects the diversity within

(53:04):
the community.
It exists and I'll just say Ihope our church only continues
to go in this direction.
But even now I know that we'rejourneying alongside people who
are very different than us.
We've got political diversity,we've got socioeconomic
diversity in our community,we've got ethnic diversity and

(53:24):
generational diversity, and I'mconnected to all kinds of people
who I otherwise wouldn't be andhonestly wouldn't care to be
connected to, apart from ourcommon unity in Jesus, and my
job is to learn how to love themand walk alongside of them.

Josiah (53:41):
Yeah.
You know, yeah, but how manyrelationships that are you
grateful for that are differentfrom you, that you would not
have chosen to be a part of thatbecause you were a part of this
community um were exposed to,and now you will.
You, you now value thoserelationships.

Mac (53:56):
Tons of them and and what I'm saying, what I said to my
friend was like this isn't justdiversity for diversity sake.
You're actually missing out onyour own formation because
you're not learning how to lovepeople who are drastically
different from you, like I.
I just think about my life.
I know tons of little kids inour community.

(54:16):
We have lots of young families,all the way up to people who
are in their eighties, and Ilove and adore them all Like
they enrich my life.
And walking alongside peoplewho are in their 80s and I love
and adore them all Like theyenrich my life.
And walking alongside peoplewho are different, especially
those who see the worlddifferently than me, and
gradually building relationshipswhere we can talk and interact,
it refines me as a human being.
It refines my character and mylove in a way that if we're just

(54:42):
surrounded by people who thinklike us and act like us, we
won't be.
I was talking to my dad recentlyand we were having a
conversation about politics andit was not contentious at all.
We've been growing a lot in ourability just to hold space
around all things political andjust really listen to each other
and talk to each other.
There's a lot of ways weoverlap.
There's some ways we'redifferent, and I found myself in

(55:04):
this conversation just sort ofrepresenting people who are
different than him in theconversation.
So he'd say something I go, youknow, dad, followers of Jesus
that think about thatdifferently would say this in
response to you, and I just keptdoing that on various issues.
So, and finally, he just kind ofsaid man, how do you know all

(55:26):
this?
And I said well, dad, I have toshepherd, like we have a very
diverse community politicallyand I have to love all of them
and shepherd all of them towardsthe person of Jesus.
And he just said I couldn't dowhat you do, at least not now.
Why?
Because, like, well, he's in agroup of friends who think like
him, vote like him, et cetera.
You know what I mean, yeah, andso my point in bringing that up

(55:49):
is and he was being justgenuine, like dude, that's tough
, and I don't think I could dothat.
You could do that, though, ifyou like Committed to it
Committed to it yeah.
You know what?

Katie (56:00):
yeah, there's like you said, there's so many different
aspects of diversity.
I think that once was one thatreally sticks out to me of what
you mentioned was just thatintergenerational piece.
You know, like I've got some,I'm fortunate enough to still
have grandparents around thatare older and I do life with,
and that's awesome, but a lot ofpeople don't, at least not in
the same area, and again, Idon't know what other place
you're going to be really havingdeep, meaningful relationships

(56:23):
with people that are much olderand wiser and have been walking
with Jesus for a long time andjust having the benefit of being
discipled by someone with thatyou know from that stage of life
, and also, at the same time,you're able to turn around and
disciple people that are maybeyounger than you or haven't been
walking with Jesus as long.
And I just I think that there Ican point to multiple examples

(56:46):
right within our churchcommunity of people who are
being discipled and disciplingat the same time, and the only
reason they have thatopportunity is because they're
part of a church where they'reexposed to those relationships
that they otherwise wouldn't beexposed to.

Mac (56:59):
Yeah, and this is unique because, when it comes to
friendships, I have a lot ofagency in terms of who I develop
friendships with.

Katie (57:08):
Right yeah, you can join meetup groups.
There's like meetup groupsonline you can literally search
by an interest.

Mac (57:14):
Yeah, so I have agency to go.
Hey, I really like this person.
I want to be intentional withthem or whatever.
I have no say so over who'spart of our church community.
People can come, people can go,and I don't get to determine
who that is, and neither do you.
If you're part of our churchcommunity.
You don't get to determine whocomes.

(57:36):
It's an open door, right, whichmeans that I don't have a choice
in terms of like who I'm goingto learn how to love Right.
And what other space do youhave that with?
Maybe family?
I guess you didn't get tochoose your family.
You know what I mean, yeah, so,yeah, okay, now I'm stuck with
this family.
I got to learn how to love themRight.
But I'm just saying, like, thisis a place where you don't you

(57:58):
have to surrender your agencyand go.
We're creating a community oflove.
People will show up that Ididn't know, didn't get to
choose, and we're going tojourney alongside one another
and they might be very differentand those differences could be
perceived as a threat.
But what I'm saying is, if welearn to lean in, there are also
opportunities.

(58:19):
They actually refine ourcharacter and our formation.
It can shape us as followers ofJesus.

Josiah (58:25):
Yeah, and I would argue that it's probably essential to
becoming more like Jesus,because we will inherently, as
humans, stay in our lane andstay comfortable, and following
Jesus is going to involve beingvery uncomfortable sometimes,

(58:45):
and the more we do that, themore we're exposed to that and
we learn to love.
We actually.
Not only is it like oh, I lovethe people who are hard to love,
you actually start toappreciate what someone else
brings to the table, and I'm notable to do that just because I
hang out with a bunch of peoplewho are just like me, which is
why it's so valuable.

Mac (59:06):
Here's the thing about this one.
I know we're trying to kind ofplay devil's advocate.
Here's how someone mightrespond.
In all my conversations withpeople of de-churched, they
don't tend to push back on thisone.
They don't.
I think they tend to admit this.
Yep, this is kind of missing inmy life.
I see what you're talking about.
I actually had a friend who ishe grew up evangelical,

(59:31):
deconstructed, that kind of onthe edge with church and we're
very close friends and at onepoint we were hanging out and we
were talking about all thingspolitics and he was listening to
me talk about how I relate topeople across the entire
spectrum, kind of like my dadand just like I don't know how
to do that.
I don't know how to do thatbecause I'm only surrounded by

(59:52):
people like this.
So I just what I'm trying toname is I've had a lot of
conversations around this withpeople and I don't hear strong
pushback around this particularthing that they're missing.
In fact, many of themacknowledge it.
Yeah, I no longer have that andI feel like it has negatively
impacted my formation.

(01:00:12):
I can't interact the way I seeyou interacting.
I've had numerous people saythat to me.

Katie (01:00:20):
Yeah.
So that's a good segue intowhat I would name as the next
sort of marker of a church, andthat's that it would be a
transformative community, likewhat you're saying, mac, is that
when we do life with people whoare different than us, it'll
challenge and grow us and refineus.
I heard you use the term refineand I think that's true.
I think being part of a churchcommunity can help us become

(01:00:41):
more like Jesus.
It can help shape our character.
I think being part of a churchcommunity can help us become
more like Jesus.
It can help shape our character.
It can help us become more like.
It can be a place where we gofor spiritual direction and, as
I think about, okay, well, whyis that?
What has it been like for mylife?
I think having a place and abody of people that's again
really anchored in the samevalues, anchored in like we're

(01:01:05):
going to do life the way thatJesus does.
It helps provide kind of acounterweight to all the other
influences or communities orpeople around me, like when I'm
at a point in my life where I'mstressed or exhausted or
overwhelmed or whatever.
There are lots of differentplaces I could go to figure out
how to relieve my stress, right,like there are all sorts of
people with all different ideasof what that could look like,

(01:01:29):
but I think being part of achurch is about being around
people who are going yeah, letme carry that for you.
Like, let me shoulder thatburden for you.
Or, like you were saying earlier, josiah, if I am maybe leaning
into something or doingsomething that doesn't look like
Jesus, I'm around people that Itrust to speak into my life or
that I've given permission tosay like, hey, katie, I'm

(01:01:49):
noticing this.
Maybe it's like an unhealthycoping mechanism, or maybe I'm
just seeming extra irritable oranxious or fearful whatever,
because I've given permission toa group of people to speak into
my life and to disciple me andto help point me towards Jesus.
I think there's just sometransformation that can happen

(01:02:12):
because of that proximity.
Is that making sense?
Yeah, like you're openingyourself up, saying I want to be
transformed, I want to becomemore like Jesus, and I am giving
other people permission thatwhen they see things that don't
align with that, when they seemyself kind of operating outside
my values, to speak into mylife, and ideally they do that
with some grace and some truthand it's not, you know, done in

(01:02:33):
like a hurtful or condemning orjudgmental way, but I don't know
that you can do that outside ofa group that has Jesus as its
orienting center.

Mac (01:02:42):
That's right.
So, like at the center of achurch community is growing in
Christ likeness.
And I do know people again,this is a category of de-church
that I'm naming, which is thosewho have de-churched but still
want to follow Jesus and I justI've talked with people who try
to maintain some rhythm ofcommunity, apart from like a

(01:03:04):
larger church body, you know,and I just don't see it
happening very well.
I'll just be honest I don't seethat orienting center being
pursued with and alongside otherpeople in ways that are like,
truly transformative.
I'm thinking of one individual,for instance, who now they're
no longer part of a church butthey host a small group once a

(01:03:27):
month, and I'm just like, yeah,that's not it.
Like when we go back to Acts 2,can you imagine like the Holy
Spirit falling on a group ofpeople and the culminating
expression of that is a studythat you get together to do once
a month?
Like that is not it.

Katie (01:03:44):
Well, let's just talk about the spiritual disciplines
for a second.
Okay, fasting, radicalgenerosity, silence, like
practicing silence, and solitudewith Jesus, practicing a
Sabbath All these things they'rehard enough to do on our own
right, like I feel like it'shard enough to do being part of
a church community where peopleare alongside me are also
committed to living life in theway of Jesus and embodying these

(01:04:05):
same things.
I can't imagine trying to dothose things, to engage these
disciplines that point me toJesus, without being surrounded
by people who are also committedto doing the same thing.

Mac (01:04:14):
Yeah, this is sort of like a no-brainer.
The church exists to helppeople grow and become like
Jesus and embody the way ofJesus in the world.
If you don't belong to a church, it's going to be really hard
to find a space or a group ofpeople where that is the center.

Josiah (01:04:28):
That's what you're pursuing, you know what I mean
yeah or if you're on your own,you may be left up to yourself
to interpret what it is, what itlooks like to join God's work
in the world.
And I think that all of uscould probably think of people
in our lives who are sort ofsolo Christians, who kind of go

(01:04:51):
off on their own, and it'sreally easy to kind of go off
the rails, even justtheologically, without having
some sort of governing body ofprinciples that we're all
agreeing to.

Mac (01:05:04):
Yeah, well, again, we're trying to orient to this
conversation with like a lot ofempathy and compassion.
This isn't about proving um,proving you wrong If you've
de-churched and look, we'reright.
Um, again, I want to justhighlight most of the people
that I've even shared storiesabout.
These are like dear friends andbeloved people that I would
love to have part of our churchcommunity because they're just

(01:05:26):
incredible human beings.
But let's shift into it'sPraxis time, right.

Katie (01:05:32):
Praxis podcast.

Mac (01:05:33):
Yep, that's right.
So if people are listening in,what could they actually do, or
embody having listened to thisconversation?

Josiah (01:05:42):
Yeah, the first practice I would name is just to pray,
and not that that would be theend goal, but start by just
asking God what might you beinviting me into?
We've heard all of these andwe've casted vision for what a
church community could be.
There's these communal tenantsthat we're naming that like hey,

(01:06:03):
this is what it means to be,this is what know.
There's these, uh, communaltenants that we're naming that
like hey, this is what it meansto be, this is what we're
striving towards.
Um, I would imagine that Godhas a next step laid out for you
.
Um, no matter where you are,maybe you're completely
de-churched and uh and uh, maybeit's been a while since you've
really asked God or spent timepraying, and maybe it's been a
while since you've really askedGod or spent time praying.

(01:06:24):
Pray and ask God what he mightbe inviting you into If you're a
part of a church community.
What are some of these gapsthat maybe my church community

(01:06:48):
like?
I see the vision, but I see biggaps.
I would imagine that, maybepraying and asking the Holy
Spirit to show you a next stepand show you how you could step
into helping create these valueswithin your own community and
being a part of that.

Mac (01:07:06):
I love that.
I think that's a reallypractical step and, you know, no
pressure tactics, nomanipulation here, no coercion,
just create some space to askGod how might he be inviting you
to take a next step forward.
And I personally love forpeople to re-engage, you know,
because I think we're missingout on some incredible people
being part of our community.

(01:07:27):
But I would love to see ifsomeone re-engages to do it
because they really have someconviction that that's something
God's calling them to.
Maybe a second practice andthis is more expectation setting
is just to normalize the mess.
Again, a huge reason I seepeople leaving the church is
because of church hurt and badmess.
Again, a huge reason I seepeople leaving the church is
because of church hurt and badexperiences.
And as we said in our lastepisode, I get that.

(01:07:51):
I've been on the receiving endof hurt in the church.
I've experienced abuse, themisuse and abuse of power and it
sucked big time.
It was horrible, truly awful.
And if that's you, you mightneed to take some time to heal.
Like all of that, totallyacknowledge awful.
And if that's you, you mightneed to take some time to heal.
Like all of that, totallyacknowledge that.
But for others of you maybe whodidn't experience trauma.
You just experiencedrelationships.

(01:08:13):
This is relationships, and thetruth is relationships are messy
and that messiness actuallyhelps us grow.
You know what I mean, not byrunning away from things that
are messy, but actually facingthem, and learning how to stay
present and engage grows us ashuman beings.
I'm part of other communities,as I mentioned before.
I've been part of our CrossFitgym for seven years and guess

(01:08:35):
what it's messy there too.
So instead of expectingrelationships to be perfect or
easy just because they'rehappening in the church, I would
just say normalize the mess.
It's going to be hard.
We're broken people crashinginto one another, and I'm not
saying normalize dysfunction ortoxicity, but I am saying if

(01:08:56):
you're going to reengage church,just expect that there are
going to be some challengesrelationally, and learning how
to face those with maturity ispart of how we grow.

Katie (01:09:05):
Yeah, that's a good one, yeah.
Third practice I would name isI don't I was going to say get
outside yourself.
I don't want that to sound like.

Mac (01:09:16):
I don't know.
I'm offended right now.

Katie (01:09:19):
I mean it in the most loving way possible, but I think
it's really common in ourculture to take a mindset of
like, well, what is this goingto do for me, or where do I get
out of this and is it worth mytime?
And I think there's somethingto affirm there.
We want to be discerning aboutwhat we pour our energy and our
time into.
But I think there's somethingthat comes from shifting your
mindset from what can I get towhat can I give.

(01:09:40):
I wonder what I have that Icould give to others and what
ways I could serve others in aself-sacrificial way.
And I promise that by doingthat, you certainly will find
yourself receiving more than youexpected.

Mac (01:09:54):
Yeah, that's a good word.

Josiah (01:09:58):
Love it.

Katie (01:09:59):
So great conversation today.
Maybe to summarize, I would saythat each of us here has
experienced being a part of achurch community in a way that
has deeply transformed us andhelped us love in the way of
Jesus, and it's our convictionthat you can't get that outside
of a church community.
So if you're not part of achurch, we hope that we've given
you some reason just to kind ofconsider joining one or taking

(01:10:22):
a step towards doing lifealongside a group of people who
can help and support you andencourage you in the way of
Jesus.
And if you are part of a churchbut not experiencing the type
of transformational communitythat we're talking about, I hope
we've given you someimagination to help be part of
creating that culture rightwhere you are.
We've said before, we all havea part to play in shaping what
the culture looks like, andbeing part of church is just

(01:10:46):
that it's about doing lifetogether in community in the way
of Jesus, and we think that's abeautiful thing.

Josiah (01:10:53):
Yeah Well, thank you for joining us today.
We hope you enjoyed ourconversation and got something
out of it.
Our next episode is actuallygonna be a break from this
series, because we do haveanother episode to finish up the
de-churching one, but we aregoing to do a bonus episode with
a special guest on grief.

Katie (01:11:13):
Yeah.

Mac (01:11:14):
Yeah, I just noticed over the years that grief tends to be
amplified during the holidays,and so we wanted to create some
space as we head into theholidays to unpack why that is
and how we can navigate ourgrief during the holidays.
And so we wanted to create somespace as we head into the
holidays to unpack why that isand how we can navigate our
grief during the holidays,especially if you've lost a
loved one or experienced somesignificant loss in your life.

Adam (01:11:35):
Praxis is recorded and produced at Crosspoint Community
Church.
You can find out more about theshow and our church at
crosspointwicom.
If you have any questions,comments or have any suggestions
for future topics, feel free tosend us an email.
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