Why Are People Leaving the Church?

Episode Transcript
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Mac (00:02):
Welcome to Praxis, a podcast where we explore how to
practice and embody the way ofJesus in our everyday lives.
Thanks so much for taking thetime to listen.
Today, we're beginning a newseries on what some experts are
calling the great de-churching.
We're currently living in thesingle greatest religious shift
in American history.
Forty million adults who onceattended church no longer do so,

(00:25):
and most of that change hastaken place in just the last 25
years.
The result of this de-churchingis more than just diminished
church attendance.
This seismic shift isdramatically reshaping the
communities we live in.
So why are people leaving thechurch?
What exactly are they missingout on, and what does it look
like to engage the de-church ina Christ-centered way?

(00:48):
Answering these questions iswhat we're setting out to do.
We believe this is a discussionthat needs to take place within
our churches, because if we aregoing to be faithful followers
of Jesus today, we must figureout what it looks like to engage
a de-church culture.
Today, we're going to unpacksome of the primary reasons that
people are leaving the church,as well as some practices that

(01:09):
will help us engage this topicin a healthy way.
So let's get into it.

Josiah (01:25):
Well, welcome everybody.
My name is Josiah

Mac (01:27):
and I'm Mac.

Katie (01:28):
I'm Katie.

Josiah (01:30):
And we're excited to be here.
We've got.
Adam was just telling us thatthis is actually the two-year
mark of the Praxis podcast.
That's crazy.

Katie (01:40):
Look at that, we were just babes.

Mac (01:42):
Happy birthday.
I had no clue what I was doing.
I was actually a littleterrified to start a podcast.

Katie (01:47):
Were you?
Yeah, totally, you didn't seemlike it.

Mac (01:50):
Well, I was just kind of like I don't know how this is
going to go.

Katie (01:54):
Yeah.
So here we are two years laterBought a bunch of mics and that
soundboard.
Custom table made.

Mac (02:02):
Actually it was.

Katie (02:03):
Is it?

Mac (02:04):
Yeah, by Sam.
Sam made this oh cool, that'scool.

Katie (02:07):
Got the fancy sound things, whatever they're called.

Josiah (02:11):
Yeah, fancy sound things .

Katie (02:12):
What are they?

Josiah (02:14):
There's like sound absorption foam.

Katie (02:16):
Oh.

Josiah (02:17):
What do you call them?
Panels?

Katie (02:18):
It looks fancy.

Josiah (02:20):
In more important news, we have been informed of a new
trend that we're really hopingto start here at Crosspoint.

Katie (02:29):
And by we you mean you.
No, I'm all in.

Josiah (02:33):
It started with Cameron who if you've been listening for
the last two years, would haveknown that he was here for the
first series.
He's on our church staff.
He brought to our attention acouple of weeks ago that that
week was fat bear week.
I love this.
I love this.
It was started from a nationalwas it the National Park Service
or the Park Service in Alaska?

(02:54):
Is that it Yep?
And they take pictures oftagged bears so they can tell
which ones are which, and theyshow their transformation from
when they come out of their denin the spring to when they
fatten up for the fall.
So they show the transformationand people vote on a bracket

(03:15):
about which bear is the fattestbear.
I love it.
And the pictures are ridiculous.
They are extremely fat,disproportionately fat the
amount that they eat to fattenup for the winter.
The question for us today is,if you had to fatten up for the

(03:35):
winter, which food?
Would you pick to?
eat the most of which junk foodcould you just binge out on and
gain as much weight as aspossible?

Katie (03:48):
Probably some kind of pasta.
Ah I mean that's way healthierthan I thought.

Josiah (03:54):
I don't know if that's going to fatten you up as much.
It would fill you up for sure.

Katie (03:59):
Pasta or brownies.

Mac (04:01):
Yeah, I would do lots of ice cream.
I mean I could eat ice creamevery night and not get sick of
it at all.
Yeah, and then I think if itwas like cold out deep dish
pizza, man, like that's not aneveryday thing, like I probably
have a limit there, but there'ssomething about a good Chicago
style deep dish pizza that I getexcited about.

Katie (04:24):
That sounds good.

Mac (04:25):
Yeah.

Katie (04:26):
I would add that to the list.

Mac (04:27):
And I think you would get fat eating those two things
regularly.
Yep, what about?

Katie (04:32):
you, Josiah?
What would you pick?
Donuts, oh yes.

Josiah (04:35):
Interesting.

Mac (04:36):
That would not be my choice , just donuts.
Yes, what kind A good cake.
Old-fashioned cake, donut.
Well, you and I have had someruns with donuts.

Josiah (04:53):
By runs we mean not the way you're thinking.

Katie (04:55):
What's your?

Josiah (04:55):
favorite kind of donut.
It's become a tradition on roadtrips to grab donuts from Quick
Trip, honestly, and I thinkCameron would agree, the maple
frosted well, no, he wouldn't dothe cream-filled ones, but the
maple frosted, cream-filled LongJohn's from Quick Trip, that
donut, I think, is the bestdonut.

Katie (05:15):
Okay.

Mac (05:16):
And for me I'm just like classic cake donut, yeah, but
yeah, we've had some road tripswhere we stop and just polish
off Within like 20 minutesthey're gone.
They're gone, the dunkers.

Katie (05:28):
I have a new answer, Okay .
So both Patty Burns has thisbrownie recipe where she puts
espresso powder in the frosting.
She makes them for my birthday.
And then Megan Lucas has asimilar type of chocolate cake
with it.
She calls it mocha and it's gotlike the same kind of espresso
powder baked in Either one ofthose done, also chocolate cake.

(05:49):
Espresso chocolate cake.

Josiah (05:50):
Yeah, do you like tiramisu?

Katie (05:54):
Eh, I feel like it's all right.

Josiah (05:57):
Does it have coffee?
Taste.

Katie (05:58):
Does it?

Josiah (05:59):
Yeah right, the soaking.

Katie (06:02):
But it's not super chocolatey, if I remember.
That's right, the soaking, butit's not super chocolatey, if I
remember it's true, notchocolatey.

Mac (06:10):
Yeah, the more chocolate, the better.
Well, speaking of runs, Iactually went on a run yesterday
outside.
It was great.
Yeah, we're going to do a fewweek run here on a topic.

Josiah (06:22):
Yeah, yeah.
So we are, as you heard in theintro, we are setting up a new
series we're calling the GreatDechurching, and this is
referencing a book by Jim Davisand Michael Graham called the
Great Dechurching.
These two pastors sort of sussout the statistics from.
Essentially.
I think it's the largestresearch study in the religious

(06:46):
context that I think has everbeen conducted.
This research gives us data on40 million Americans who have
de-churched is the term they use, and when they say de-churched
they mean people who once wentto church at least once per
month now go less than once peryear.

Mac (07:06):
Yeah, I think that in and of itself is important to
emphasize.
This isn't people who neverhave been to a church.
This is people who were oncepart of a church and now no
longer are, and it seems likethey've defined that as going at
least one time per month.
Yeah, and I think that'simportant because we come up
with a lot of and it seems likethey've defined that as going at
least one time per month.

Josiah (07:25):
Yeah, and I think that's , yeah, it is important because
we come up with a lot of youknow, we have a lot of ideas in
our head of like, oh well, ifsomeone left the church it's
just because they, you know,they didn't really attend that
often anyway.
Well, these are peoplespecifically who did attend very
consistently, you know, in manymeasures, did attend very
consistently, you know, in manymeasures.
So, to put this shift intoperspective, there have been

(07:53):
three sort of three mainreligious shifts that moved
towards Christianity in Americanhistory.
The first was the first GreatAwakening, which happened in the
1730s and 40s.
The second Great Awakening,which was, I think they put 1790
to like 1840.
And there's a lot of statisticsin the book to back up like
these were large growths for thechurch.

(08:13):
Lots of people started attendingand the biggest one actually
was the four decades post theCivil War.
That was one of the biggestones.
So there's massive growth inchurch attendance and in
membership.
And for as long as membershiphas been tracked in the last
like 100 years actually churchmembership has always been well

(08:35):
over 50%.
So more than half of Americanshave called themselves members
of a church, and that happenedpost all of these religious
movements, like early on inAmerican history.
Actually there's stigmas aboutthat.
The people who lived in thecolonies at the beginning were
all Christian.

(08:56):
Well, they really weren't.
Many of them weren't.
A lot of people were consideredChristians and were members and
attending church, but in thelast 25 years more people have

(09:16):
left the church in the last 25years than all the people who
became Christians in the firstand second Great Awakenings and
the Billy Graham Crusadescombined.

Mac (09:27):
Yeah, that's a shocking reality.

Josiah (09:30):
So there is this huge, massive growth in Christianity
and in church attendance as abyproduct of that and lots of
people are considered part ofchurch.
It's a big part of their lives,but just in the last 25 years,
so not in a long time, it's avery short amount of time Since
the turn of the millennium.
Yeah, basically 40 million ofthem.

Katie (09:52):
That's a huge number.
What's the population ofWisconsin?
Like five or 6 million, right.
That's like seven or eighttimes population of our state.

Josiah (10:01):
Yeah, that's insane.

Mac (10:07):
So it's a it is a really big deal, yep, and for those who
have been part of our churchcommunity in a committed way for
a while, naming these types ofstatistics isn't new.
One that I've shared repeatedlycomes from Alan Roxburgh's book
Joining God Remaking the Churchand Changing the World, and he
this is like 2009 statistic buthe said hey, if you're part of

(10:30):
the builder generation, there'sa 60% chance you're in church
today.
If you're part of the boomergeneration, well, 40%.
Gen X is 20% and if you'remillennial or Gen Z, it's a less
than 10% chance you're inchurch today.
And so, with each successivegeneration, the church is losing

(10:50):
ground.
It's not gaining ground.
John Mark Comer in his bookPracticing the Way, he cites a
Barna study where 63% ofAmericans identify as Christian.
So this is a current statistic63% of Americans would identify
as Christian, but when theybegan to do a deeper analysis

(11:13):
around, like, okay, but how manyof them are following Jesus?
In other words, if there'scultural Christians and people
are like actually living outtheir faith, which is a little
bit difficult to measure orquantify or qualify but the
answer is 4%.
So you have 63% of Americanswho are basically cultural
Christians and of thatpopulation 4% are actually like

(11:35):
living out the way of Jesus intheir everyday life.
And of course the pandemicaccelerated these trends, I
think, quite a bit.
You know statistics suggestthat the average church in
America had about a third ofpeople stay committed, a third
of people left and de-churchedand a third of people found new
churches.
So you know that might dependupon your context.

(12:00):
Some churches I know grewduring that because they were
kind of magnets for people.
Others have dwindled and so on.

Katie (12:08):
Well, and it seems like from our experience, a lot of
churches who maybe didn't havethe online option all of a
sudden created it because we'rein the pandemic.
People thought, oh, this isgreat, I can watch church online
, and then there was just not alot of impetus to get back in
person.
Like I know people who juststarted watching online during
the pandemic and just never cameback.

Mac (12:28):
Yeah, so it's just to say we're now living, this is our
cultural moment.
We're living in an age of rapidand discontinuous change, and
those two words that I just used, rapid and discontinuous, are
important.
Things are now changing at arate that is unprecedented.
We're not used to the pace ofchange and historically, the

(12:51):
types of change we'reexperiencing before would take
centuries You'd have centuriesto like acclimate to.
Now things are changing in amatter of minutes, hours, months
.
You know like.
It's such that the pace ofchange is so fast and it's
discontinuous, whereas beforechange took a much longer period

(13:11):
of time.
It also is more incremental.
The change is built uponprevious changes and now it's.
The changes that are happeningare not necessarily incremental.
There's change over here andthen change over there, and it's
like it's very disorienting,right and I think it's John Mark
Comer names how this isimpacting the church.

(13:34):
There's been some tectonicshifts, some sizable shifts that
the church is that is nowcatching up to churches.
One is that the church has gonefrom being the majority to
increasingly the minority.
Right, there are different waysto describe this shift, I
suppose, from Christendom topost-Christendom, or Christian

(13:55):
to post-Christian, whateverdescriptor you like to use.
But those statistics you shared, josiah, get at this reality.
At one point, being a Christian, that was like the majority
culture right, and there's asense of this is normative and
there's a sense of powerattached to that and that is
just no longer the case.
Increasingly, followers ofJesus are now finding themselves

(14:17):
on the margins and that can bereally disorienting.
Maybe a second shift in light ofthese trends is that there's a
shift from a place of honor inour culture to a place of shame
and even disrepute.
Right, it's disreputable insome ways.
With this shift from themajority to the minority,

(14:39):
there's this shift in socialstanding.
Whereas before the church had aplace of honor and a certain
degree of respect in the widerculture, it's just no longer the
case, and I experienced this asa pastor.
You rewind 50, 60, 70 years agoand pastors were respected
community leaders, trustedadvisors, people oriented

(15:03):
positively to pastors.
A Pew study showed that 96% ofnon-Christians do not trust
pastors.
That is like a major shift inour culture.
I knew it was bad.
I didn't think it was that bad,yes.
And then maybe a third tectonicshift is that widespread
tolerance to sort of risinghostility.

(15:26):
Now I do not think Americans,christians in America are being
persecuted.
I think that is a misuse of theword persecuted.
When you look at other peoplearound the world who are
actually being killed for theirfaith.
I think we have to be carefulabout how we use that word.
But one thing that is happeningis that I do think there's sort
of rising hostility and perhapssome antagonism towards

(15:49):
Christians, because now we'reconsidered to be part of the
problem, right.
For instance, in a world oftolerance, you guys are
intolerant, right?
So being a Christian I'll justname is no longer cool, it's no
longer normative, it's no longersexy.

Katie (16:04):
I mean not that we're not cool.
Oh right, right, right, I thinkwe're pretty cool, Okay, well
you can tell the world that.

Mac (16:13):
And all of this has been happening within the last 25
years, right, and so it's reallydisorienting, and I think what
we're trying to do in thisseries is is go.
We need to talk about thisstuff so we can reimagine what
it looks like to be the church,because this way of doing church
, where you just trusted peopleto come and that's how your
church would grow, that momentno longer exists.

(16:35):
Yeah, right, and so we need tonormalize talking about this and
reimagine what it looks like tobe a church in a new age.

Josiah (16:44):
Yeah, reimagine what it looks like to be a church in a
new age.
Yeah, yeah, essentially we're.
We're shifting from um, youknow, standing in our, on our
stages and doing the rightprograms and opening the doors,
and of course, people are goingto show up like that.
That era is over and or, if ithasn't yet, it's shifting
towards that.
Um, we're moving into a spacewhere our culture is now like

(17:08):
it's like the de-churchedculture is our mission field.

Mac (17:12):
Yes, Right, and it'd be easy to lament this, you know,
and there may be some things tolament or be easy to feel
discouraged or hopeless, but Ikeep telling people like none of
this has taken God by surpriseand God often does his best work
in these moments of culturalupheaval.
But it very much depends uponus leaning in and attending to

(17:36):
our own transformation andtaking risky steps to follow the
spirit of Jesus into areas thatfeel uncertain or scary.
Yeah, yeah.

Katie (17:46):
Yeah, as you're describing, that it makes me
reflect on my own story a littlebit and the transition in
particular from high school tocollege.
So I grew up here in Oconomowoc.
Lake Country is a largelyChristian area, especially 20
plus years ago, and so most ofmy friends went to some sort of
like young life or youth groupor church or whatever is very
common.
And then all of a sudden I goto UW-Madison and I would tell

(18:08):
people like, oh yeah, I'm inyoung life and it was kind of
like what?
Why?
Like, all of a sudden it wasjust that more antagonistic
response and it did feel like itwas very much a shift that
feels similar to what you'redescribing.
But it also caused me to kindof orient to my faith, maybe in
some different ways, and topress deeper into certain things

(18:28):
.
And looking back I can see howthat season really refined me,
yeah, and caused me to just kindof press in and and and you
came out cooler.

Josiah (18:43):
Look how cool you are.

Katie (18:44):
So cool.
I mean, I am kind of atrendsetter, I just bought, I
had I bought a purse last, youcame out cooler.
Yeah, look how cool you are.
So cool, so cool.
I mean I am kind of atrendsetter.
I just bought, I had, I boughta purse last, I got a purse last
Christmas and now like half thewomen in our office have the
same purse.
Yeah, I'd never heard of thiscompany that you named.
Portland Leather yeah, I'dnever heard of that yeah.

Mac (18:57):
Maybe it sounds like purse.
Yes, what is this?
Portland?
Yeah, oh, that's right, Iremember that.
So I imagine we might have somepeople listening in who are
maybe de-churched, right, Idon't know.
So I guess I would just say,like, how do you think, how

(19:18):
should we orient to thisconversation?
You know what I mean, because Ithink we have some values that
we want to embody in thisconversation.

Katie (19:25):
Yeah, I think that's important.
I think, gosh, as I think aboutquote unquote, like the
de-churched, what comes to mindfor me is like actual names and
faces and people andconversations I've had, and so I
think that will be somethingfor us to just keep in mind as
we take into this conversation,not to treat this as like an
abstract concept, as if we'rejust in some you know classroom

(19:46):
talking about statistics anddata, that part that's part of
the conversation.
But I would just encourage usto orient with curiosity and
compassion and engage in waysthat are productive and
Jesus-like and honor the realhuman stories.

Mac (20:03):
Yes, and I might even add to that, if you're listening to
this and you are part of thosestatistics, like you were once
part of a church but no longerare, and whatever the reason and
we're going to name somereasons in this episode but we
want to be a safe space for you.
We want to be a space where youcould share your story or

(20:24):
communicate honestly, withoutjudgment or reactivity on our
part.
I mean, I was recently in aconversation with a group of
people and one of them confessedthat they're no longer
connected to a church but theystill care about following Jesus
.
And someone else sort of jumpedin super reactively Like well,
why not?
You need to be going to church,that's important.

(20:44):
Like kind of like the.
The idea that they're no longerpart of a church, um, caused
unease in them and they sort ofresponded in a they got bigger
and man that shut down theconversation right away, like
they no longer wanted to shareanything related to here's why
I'm no longer connected to achurch.
And so I just noticed in thatmoment, like man, I want to be

(21:09):
the kind of person who can sitand not be reactive in that way
and instead pivot towardscuriosity and hear and honor
their story.
You know what I mean.

Josiah (21:19):
Yeah, what you're going to learn as we unpack this today
is that everybody does have astory as to why they aren't
going to church anymore,especially if they're people who
are professing Christians.
And if we start to make blanketstatements and broad
assumptions about who thede-churched is, we're actually

(21:42):
really going to miss out on ouropportunities, as you're saying,
to hopefully invite them backinto the fold.
And yeah, so today we are withthis first episode.
We want to begin theconversation by looking at why
it is people are leaving, andthe book, if you read it, goes

(22:05):
into a lot of detail and itactually uses machine learning
to create profiles.

Mac (22:12):
What is machine learning?
What does that even mean?

Katie (22:16):
AI genre of things I imagine it scans a bunch of data
and analyzes it right.

Mac (22:21):
Adam.
We're looking at Adam, Adam.
What is machine learning?

Adam (22:24):
I'm not going to give you an accurate definition, but I'm
guessing, like Josiah said,probably some form of AI that's
just looking for specifickeywords.
That are narrowing down orcreating buckets for different
types of profiles that Josiahwill end up talking about,
looking for similarities betweenstories and stuff like that.

Mac (22:44):
I can work with that definition.
Yeah.

Josiah (22:47):
And I think it is important even just in what you
were saying, katie this book andthis research study was done.
They gathered a lot of data.
It's not just did you attendchurch before, do you now?
They got lots of data, and thereason why is they were able to
use this process of having thecomputer suss out based on

(23:11):
criteria X, y and Z, essentiallygather the information we have
into, and it created fivedifferent profiles of people who
were once churchgoers and arenot, and there's lots of
different things and we're notgoing to go into all of that,
cause that would be multipleepisodes in itself.
But what we did is we took someof that stuff, we got from the

(23:34):
book hats and we had and we hadsome conversations as a staff as
well to say, hey, what are weseeing, what are the
conversations we're having, whatare the conversations we're
having, and yeah.
So we compiled all of that andnarrowed down the reasons into
five different categories today.
So we want to take time todiscuss each one and I think

(23:56):
you'll notice, maybe if you areone of these de-churched folk,
that there are some thingswithin each reason that we can
affirm.
Like, if I was in your shoes,maybe I would have had a hard
time attending as well.
But we're also going to bringsome challenge, because we do
believe that life is meant to belived together, that following

(24:18):
Jesus is designed to be done incommunity and we really want to
see everyone who is you knowthat's a follower of Jesus doing
that alongside other people.
So, yeah, so we're going tobring some things to affirm and
challenge and yeah, yeah, yeah.

Katie (24:44):
So the first reason and I would say tends to be, I think,
a pretty prominent reason asyou hear people's stories and
listen to what's out there wouldbe church hurt, and these are
people who have left becausepeople within the church have
hurt them in some way.
And, like I said, I thinkunfortunately there are quite a
few people who fall into thiscategory, and church hurt can
happen for any number of reasons.
The most extreme cases that wejust tend to like hear about

(25:07):
more frequently are cases ofabuse, especially like sexual
abuse or harassment A lot ofstories of that in the news over
the past 10 plus years but thenthere's lots of less extreme
examples like maybe there waschurch hurt because of forcing
people to conform to a specificlifestyle or a way of behaving.

(25:29):
Church leaders that use guiltor shame to get people to do
things, offering unwarrantedscrutiny over someone's
lifestyle in a way that's reallynot helpful or welcomed by the
person.
I think we see an increasingawareness lately around the
presence of narcissistic leaders, particularly in kind of these
bigger evangelical churcheswhere the entire congregation

(25:49):
revolves around one person andthat person tends to use their
power in toxic ways to hurtpeople, which we talked about a
lot in our last series.
So, unfortunately, church hurt,I think, is a major reason why
people leave the church.
And, man, there's a lot toaffirm here.
I think church hurt is real andit's painful.
I've talked to people who haveleft the church for this reason.

(26:10):
It's painful when you are hurtin any area of life by anyone,
but I think it's especiallypainful when it comes from the
church.
Like the place that's supposedto be embodying the presence of
God to you, like the most lovingand gracious presence, uses
that power to hurt you.
I once worked with a woman whowas sexually abused by a priest

(26:32):
or pastor I forget whatdenomination it was as a child
and she just talked about howdamaging that was, because it
wasn't just the abuse that sheendured, it was the way that it
changed her perception of Godand spiritual authority.
Like the place she was supposedto be safe was the place that
took that position and it causedso much pain.

(26:53):
So I've sat and talked topeople that have this experience
.
So if you're listening and ifyou experience church hurt, we
just want to say that we hearyou and we see you and we are so
, so sorry.

Mac (27:08):
Yeah, I heard you name several things that feel
important that I'd like to likemaybe summarize back for our
listeners.
So bucket number one, or reasonnumber one, is church hurt.
I think I heard you say thatchurch hurt happens along a
spectrum.
Not all church hurt is equal.

(27:29):
So maybe you know, trauma is abig word these days and it seems
there's like capital T traumaand then there's little t trauma
and there's, like you know,like major examples of church
hurt and then there's more likeminor examples of church hurt,
but it happens along a spectrum.
Yep.
Right, yep.
And then I hear you saying andour first pivot when it comes to

(27:53):
someone who has experiencedchurch hurt is there's probably
a lot to validate there, becausethe place that's supposed to be
a hospital ends up being theplace where they get wounded and
hurt.
Like right, the church issupposed to be a hospital for
the hurting, not a place that isperpetuating hurt and harm, and
so there's just a lot to it,and I've encountered a lot of

(28:15):
people who have church hurtacross the entire spectrum.
It reminds me of a woman maybea more minor example, but or not
, like you know, sexual abuse orsomething like that but a woman
who works out at our CrossFitgym.
At some point we ended up in aspiritual conversation and I was
surprised to learn that shegrew up Lutheran and went to a

(28:36):
Lutheran church and a Lutheranschool and one of her family
members died.
And in seventh grade her pastorcame in to teach one of the
religion classes and she had thecourage to ask the question.
So what happened to my familymember after he or she died?
And he very boldly and sort ofmatter-of-factly said they're

(28:58):
burning in hell.
Jeez Jeez.
Yeah, so it's worth noting inthat moment like the pastor is
in a position of authority,right, he's being asked a
question that's clearlysensitive.

Katie (29:11):
By a child.

Mac (29:12):
Yep, there's a lot behind it and he does incredible damage
with his response, right?
Whatever you think about whathappens after death is besides
the point.
The point is that pastoralmoment was horrendous, right,
and out of that experience shewas disturbed and traumatized by

(29:34):
that response and in thatmoment said I want nothing to do
with this.
And now what's so interestingis that she worships ancient
Greek gods and the gods of theVikings.
So I just have so many questionsabout that.
It strikes me as super odd, butit's just to go like that.
That's how she narrated herspiritual journey to me, and the

(29:57):
starting point was this veryspecific moment of hurt yeah,
right, yeah.

Josiah (30:03):
And we're like you said something, katie these moments
and these issues of hurt do morethan just offend you, as maybe
some of the blanket statementsyou would make about someone
Like you were just offended andyou know God isn't that.
But when you're in that placeof vulnerability and you are

(30:24):
damaged in that way, yourperception of God changes.
So why, if I think God is this,why would I keep attending
church?
And so we can have compassionand a lot of that empathy, in
the same way that if someone wasabused by a family member and
they had trust issues with otherpeople in those positions, you

(30:46):
wouldn't blame them for theproblem, right?
We would say I get it right.
So I just think there's a lotto affirm that we do see that
and feel for that.
Affirm that like we do see thatand feel for that.

Mac (31:00):
And especially if you have experienced a significant trauma
in a church, I would validate.
There may be a season of timewhere you have to walk away yeah
, you know what I mean.
Yeah, and not be connected to achurch to find healing.
And it would be right andnormal, before you ever reenter,
to do some homework on whatkind of church is this and so on
, and take baby steps.
And the church has to regainyour trust through consistent

(31:23):
behavior over time, right?

Katie (31:25):
Yeah, yeah, and that's a good segue into something else I
would add to this category, andthat's this If we believe that
our God is a God of redemptionand we do and we believe that
God is in the business ofredeeming and restoring and
making all things new, then wealso believe that the hurt you

(31:45):
experienced isn't the end of thestory for you.
I would say God wants you tofind healing and wholeness, and
I don't want to downplay or takelightly the courage it would
take to work through whateverpain was caused, but I would
want to say that not allchurches are like that.
There are good and healthychurches out there who want to
love you and care for you in theauthentic and gracious way of

(32:06):
Jesus.
There are people who want to dolife with you and create
community, and I'd hate to seeyou miss out on that because of
the hurt that's in your past.

Mac (32:15):
Yeah, yeah.
So I guess what we're saying iswhen it comes to what we would
affirm.
There's so much we would wantto affirm about the hurt that
someone experienced and the care, the tender care they may need,
but I also sense, maybe, ashift to go.
But how will we challenge thosewho are in this camp?
One is just like we want tochallenge you to get healing,

(32:36):
like God wants your healing, andthat's good news.
Maybe another layer ofchallenge is and this very much
depends upon the kind of churchhurt someone may have
experienced.
But I'm thinking of people.
I do think there's a category ofpeople just recognizing that
not all church hurt is equal.
I think some people sort ofhide behind church hurt because

(32:59):
it's a popular phrase, when, infact, man, you just experience
like normal relationships andrelationships are messy.
I'm just being honest, like Iknow people who would say, well,
I've experienced church hurtand it's like, oh, tell me about
it.
And then you get into it andyou're like, no, that's just
life.
Like you know what I mean.
That's life with broken peopletrying to do life together.

(33:21):
And I think you actuallydiminish the stories of people
of legitimate trauma in thechurch when you claim the same
phrase.
You know, yeah, it's tough, youknow what I mean.
So I also think, like for me Ihave my radars like when is
church actually being used aslike a deflection mechanism to
sort of like push things awaywithout like attending to

(33:41):
reality?
And I also say and this is foreverybody a challenge is like
sometimes our deepest hurts,when we experience healing, end
up being the greatest catalystor sort of things that drive us.
And I actually think those whohave experienced church hurt in
a deep way as they experiencehealing, there's a deep

(34:01):
invitation.
I would have to go, come bepart of creating something
healthier.
And I'm someone who'sexperienced church hurt.
I'll just name that.
It's not just something thatcongregants experience, it's
something that pastoral leadersexperience.
I've experienced trauma in thechurch.
I've been traumatized andworking through that healing

(34:22):
process, I found on the otherside of it is not only wholeness
but deep motivation to want tosee a different type of church
embody the way of Jesus in theworld.
Yeah, I follow someone onInstagram.

Josiah (34:34):
She's an author.
Yeah, I follow someone onInstagram.
She's an author and her wholeplatform is she talks very
openly about there was abuse sheexperienced in church was a
part of you know followed avariety of narcissistic leaders
and, after taking a period oftime to say, like, what do I

(34:56):
actually think about all this,was able to find healing and
wholeness and now she really isa prophetic voice that speaks
out against the abusers, against, you know, structures of like
church leadership that areharmful, like church leadership
that are harmful but also causea lot of challenge to people

(35:20):
that want to hide behind thewall of church hurt, when really
there's a difference betweenabuse and relational pain.
So I think it would be good todistinguish that.

Mac (35:35):
Yeah, and here's the tricky part Maybe this is the last
thing I'll say on this topic isthat, like when a person hurts
you, it's hard becauserelationships are part of the
pain but they're also part ofthe healing.
Yeah, and that's the hard part.
So you gotta find those peopleyou can trust and begin that
healing process with.
But first big reason is churchhurt.
There's so much we want toaffirm and validate about that

(35:57):
and please hear any challengesas humble submissions to you,
things that you're going to haveto maybe pray through and go.
Is this something God's asking?
Where is God leading me in myjourney of healing and re-entry?
Okay, reason number two isdeconstruction.
I've written aboutdeconstruction on the Praxis
blog.

(36:17):
I wrote a couple articles, soI'm not going to review
everything there.
People can check those out.
But a quick this is again aterm church heard is being used
a lot deconstruction we hear alot about it.
It's the process of dissecting,so think, questioning,
interrogating, taking thingsapart in idea, belief, practice,
tradition or system todetermine its truthfulness,

(36:37):
usefulness and impact.
So a couple things just to.
I know I just said a lot, butdeconstruction is a process.
It's not a one-time event andat its heart.
It involves a deepinterrogation of beliefs and
behaviors to re-examine theirtruthfulness and usefulness.
I like the example of it's likedoing cleaning out your closet,
maybe once a year, where you'rekind of like taking out all the

(36:59):
things that are in your closetand you have these different
categories of like.
Oh, I'm definitely keeping this, I'm definitely throwing this
away.
This is in the maybe category,right, it's sort of like that,
but only with beliefs andbehaviors, and this has
definitely been the case for me.
I've gone through deep seasons,or perhaps multiple seasons, of

(37:22):
deconstruction on a wholevariety of things, and they
actually come out with a muchdeeper faith or a deeper sense
of conviction.
That has been my experiencewith deconstruction.
In fact, I'll tell you, there'srarely a season where I'm not
deconstructing something and forthe most part, my questions
have fueled deeper faith andtrusting God and so on.

(37:43):
But this is not the result foreverybody, perhaps not the
majority.
For many, deconstruction hasled to deconversion or
de-churching, and we're seeingthis happen in large numbers.
And one big reason for thisthat we named in a previous
episode is authoritariandogmatism.
Many people grew up in a churchwho experienced sort of this

(38:08):
authoritarian dogmatic presencewhere it's like, hey, this is
what you need to believe.
And then they're policing andenforcing those beliefs and, by
extension, right behaviors.
And enforcing those beliefs and, by extension, right behaviors.
Well, eventually they come toquestion those things and
there's often a reaction againstit.
Right, and this is.

(38:33):
I think some of the buckets thatare being deconstructed are
like political ideologies, afusion between church and
partisan allegiance ornationalism.
There's theological convictionsthat are under being
deconstructed, um whole bunch oftopics, from you know what
happens after you die, toatonement theory, to so on, um,
biblical authority the list isendless.
Lifestyle expectations, purity,culture, um, human sexuality,
things like that, and leadershipmodels, the, the CEO model of
leadership, and so on.

(38:54):
All right, so, um, man, what doyou guys think of that?
You know, is there anythingyou'd add to fill out what we
mean by deconstruction?
And then I'm wondering if wecan pivot and go.
What would you affirm and what?
What?
What might we challenge aboutthose who are in this camp of
I'm no longer part of a churchbecause I've deconstructed my
faith?

Katie (39:13):
It seems like this has been a hot topic for the past
couple of years.
I don't know.
I feel like I've listened tomore than one podcast where
people are kind of like debatingdeconstruction and there's
definitely some camps that seeit somewhat antagonistically.
I guess Just thinking like,well, deconstruction is like

(39:34):
qualitatively a bad thingbecause it's it's leading people
to leave.
And I think the way you'reapproaching it, mac, is going
look, deconstruction is likeunpacking something and
questioning and and we shouldall be doing that all the time.
I love that you said there'srarely a season where I'm not
deconstructing something.
Um, just because youdeconstruct doesn't mean that
you're going to de-church.

(39:55):
In fact, it could lead to adeeper faith.
But certainly some that dodeconstruct do leave.

Josiah (40:01):
Yeah, yeah and there's.
I think there are plenty ofthings that were handed to us in
the faith sense that are worthdeconstructing, Like I could
affirm that like, yeah, if you,you know, grew up and your
spiritual leader was missing themark in a very obvious way and
didn't demonstrate the love ofJesus, super well you should.

(40:26):
It would be a good thing.
I mean, I know, shortly after Imoved here, went through like a
group with you, mac, in my ownlife, in my own life, and there
were a lot of things that therewere a lot of things that was
very, very much spirit leddeconstruction happening in that
group for me, like things thatwere that were just assumptions

(40:55):
that I had in my mind, that Irealized they were actually
skewing how I viewed God andwhat and the way he wanted to be
involved in my life.
So you kind of I don't know, Ithink you almost have to from an
affirmation side, you canalmost assume that
deconstruction needs to happenin order to grow.

Mac (41:11):
Yes, yeah, and I'm biased here I had a moment, I think it
was last week, with Katie andCameron.
We were sitting at my officeand I was talking about
something and they both lookedat me and they're like you
realize people don't think likeyou and I was like what, what do
you mean?
Kind of this mirror moment.
And so maybe most people don'tthink like me, but I actually

(41:33):
think deconstruction isessential for faith.
You know, like in the book ofGenesis, jacob wrestles with God
and then is renamed Israel,which means he who wrestles with
God.
So the people of God literallyare given the name those who
wrestle with God.
I think wrestling it out withGod is like what it means to
have faith.

(41:53):
So and I'm wired that way Imean I I've shared this story
before, but I got dinner with aprofessor of mine from college
who I've remained in contactwith and it was our first time
seeing each other in person,like 18 years, along with my
wife, josie, and he had thismoment where he's like here's
what I remember when you werestudents, and he remembered

(42:14):
Josie being really smart and agreat test taker and he said Mac
, I remember you, you grew upCatholic and most of our student
body grew up evangelical and sowe would be discussing
something biblically ortheologically and your hand
would shoot up right awaybecause it would raise a
question for you.

(42:35):
But those questions were offlimits for most of the
evangelical students.
They knew not to ask thosequestions, but you didn't know
that.
So you were like breaking therules, but you had no idea.
And those are exactly the typesof questions the content was
supposed to provoke.
So I've always been someonewho's like hey, I'm not going to
be scared of asking questionsyou know, and I don't think
other people should be either,because when you attend to those

(42:56):
questions it can strengthenyour faith.
And so there's so much aboutthe deconstruction process.
When done, well, I would wantto affirm but if we shift gears
a little bit and go, but whatwould we want to challenge?
For me, it's not deconstructionitself that I want to challenge
, it's the posture that I detectunderneath that's driving the

(43:17):
deconstruction.
Okay, so there are people Iknow who are deconstructing and
they're not doing it from agenuine point of wrestling with
God.
They just want to tear thingsdown and they have no desire to
reconstruct.
And I often don't detect agenuine desire to know the truth
.
It's just sort of this arrogant, sort of antagonism towards all

(43:41):
things faith and man.
That's easy to do, I'm justgonna tell you it's really easy
to pick apart.
It's a lot harder toreconstruct something beautiful.
And so for me, I loveaccompanying people through
deconstruction when they'regenuinely wrestling, like I
sense a humble, hungry postureunderneath it, but I find myself

(44:03):
calibrating a lot of challengewith not, you know, in a way
that invalidates people, but Ifind myself kind of trying to
address the posture when I sensean underlying antagonism or
arrogance to the deconstruction.
Do you guys notice differentpostures when it comes to
deconstruction?

Josiah (44:20):
Yeah, yeah, I think deconstructing properly does
take a certain level ofvulnerability and that may be
difficult for some people morethan others.
You know, I was just talking tomy daughter the other night
because she was really mad andbeing kind of disrespectful.
Um, she's younger, she's nine,eight nine.

(44:46):
She's nine.
Thank you.
I got a lot of kids in my house, yeah, Um, but I was laying in
bed with her and I was like allright, why are you sad?
And she's like you don't know,I'm sad, I'm mad and I was like
all right why, are you sad andshe's like.
You don't know I'm sad, I'm madand I was like well, I actually
do know you're sad and I waslike you want to know why she's
like what.

Mac (45:07):
The listeners are missing your facial expressions.
I love that.
I wish I could see it.

Josiah (45:13):
Oh yeah, she's full of it, full of sass, I said because
anger is a secondary emotion.
I said so nine times out of ten.
If you're angry, I assumethere's something deeper
underneath it.
And she looked at me and hereyes started welling up with
tears.
We had a great moment, which isthis is what I'm planning on

(45:35):
saying now.
But what I'm saying isdeconstruction from a place of
vulnerability where you'rehonest about why you're
deconstructing.
Maybe there was church hurt,maybe you were hurt.
Maybe the way you really viewGod underneath the surface is
someone who he isn't and thatneeds to be deconstructed.
But if you deconstruct from aplace of vulnerability and

(45:58):
openness, I think you experiencea lot of deconstruct from a
place of vulnerability andopenness.
I think you experience a lot ofgood news and a lot of moments
where God shows up in a way thatyou didn't think he could
before.
But when you deconstruct from aplace of responding to the anger
and you assume that's theprocess of deconstruction and
the reasons why you're angryjust give you fuel to shield

(46:20):
yourself from being honest aboutthe things you really believe
about it, as well as use them asweapons to attack others who
maybe have been wrong aboutthings.
I think that you end upde-churched and mad at God and
mad at people.
I think that you end upde-churched and mad at God and

(46:40):
mad at people and really,underneath it, I can think of
actually another conversation Ihad recently where someone has
done some deconstructing andwhen they were more honest, when
they put the weapons down,they're really missing what it
means to be a part of a churchfamily that has your back.
So underneath it there's eitherpain or sadness or other things

(47:04):
, and it's easier for people touse the anger and the
frustration as the thing thatthey're actually mad about.

Mac (47:10):
Yeah, so maybe the question is what's driving the
deconstruction?
We have to get after that,Because if it is hurt or pain or
something like that is what'sdriving the deconstruction we
have to get after that, Becauseif it is hurt or pain or
something like that.
Well then, that's determiningthe outcome of your search.
Yeah, you know, the very thingyou're frustrated about could be
determining the outcome.

Katie (47:29):
Yeah, I was going to say I think it's kind of,
unfortunately, a human defaultto orient with some sense of
self-righteousness andsuperiority, and we see that
happening inside the church.
And we also see that happeningoutside the church it's much
harder to do what you'redescribing.

Mac (47:45):
Yep.
So reason number two isdeconstruction.
So much we'd want to affirmabout deconstructing well and
that being an important part oftransformation.

Josiah (47:53):
Also, some challenge underneath it just going hey,
what's driving this andattending to that, so we can do
so in an honest and authenticway, yeah, and I think one more
thing I'd add to the challengeis if you're someone who's just
part of a church and you'relistening to this and your
assumptions about people who aredeconstructing have been like,

(48:14):
oh, these people are just angry,they're mad at God, and then
you know, you kind of write themoff.
I would say one of the biggest,the biggest contributors to
healthy deconstruction and,honestly, probably almost a
prerequisite, would be having asafe place within a church
community to ask questions, yes,and to poke at things and try

(48:37):
to find holes in theories andcreate a safe space around you,
with the people in your life,where they can ask questions and
they don't get judged for it.
Yes, 100%, very important.

Mac (48:45):
And we want to be that kind of place, yeah, in your life,
where they can ask questions andthey don't get judged for it.
Yes, 100 very important.
We want to be that kind ofplace.

Josiah (48:49):
Yeah, and I'm I'm so grateful that I have had spaces
like that, um, in my own life.
All right.
Reason three uh, this one welabeled as a shifting priorities
.
So this is, um, people who onceattended church and it was a
priority in their lives ofattending, but other things in

(49:10):
life have taken the priorityover engaging in church
consistently.
I don't think that this is veryhard to find some of the
reasons, but we named a lot ofthese as a staff.
We kind of listed like hey,this is the things I hear from
people when I check in on them,like hey, we haven't seen you in
a while, and they'll say thingslike oh, like I'm just really

(49:32):
busy.
Um, or uh, my kids are insports and they travel every big
one every weekend kids sportscould maybe be its own category
in this area for sure.

Mac (49:45):
I was talking to a guy from our church who was coaching
5-0s baseball 10-year-olds andhe was like we have two
practices a week nights whereit's practices a couple hours
each.
One weeknight we have a doubleheader game.
So two games back to back andthen a tournament every weekend.

(50:08):
And he's like and this weekendthe tournament starts on Friday,
I'm the coach, I have no ideahow I'm supposed to get off work
and it's like an hour away.
So it's five days a week, yes.
And it's like, wow, well, nowonder you're have little margin
to live out the way of Jesuswith and alongside other people.
Yeah, yeah.

Josiah (50:28):
So I think you'll probably find that some of these
last few, these other threereasons there, may be a little
less to affirm, and I don't wantto say that in a judgmental way
, I'm just stating that I thinkthat the shifting of priorities
in people's lives callsattention to the fact that the

(50:50):
priority of being a part of achurch body has decreased.
Yeah, it has lowered on thetotem pole of importance.
And you know, I think otherones are just like travel.
As people, you know likethere's major life transitions.
You move from one part of lifeto another.
Maybe you're an empty nester nowand church rhythms were normal

(51:15):
and now you're like, oh, I'mtraveling more and I'm going to
go here, do this.
And you know like job changes,all those other types of things,
come in the way of attendingchurch.
And I think I would say, like Ican affirm, life is busy, like

(51:35):
in our society today, it is verydifficult to live a life in
which you have margin at all inyour time.
Right, it takes a lot of effort.
I mean, we have done classes atchurch about prioritizing
things like Sabbath and rhythmsof work and rest, and silence

(51:57):
and solitude.
We have to implement thesethings and it takes a lot of
effort to be a follower of Jesusand have some sort of margin
where it looks like, where wehave to shift and rearrange
priorities.
So there's lots of grace fortrying to figure out busy
schedules, you know.

Mac (52:14):
Another affirmation with this is that I think
historically, the church createdso many activities and expected
people like turn their worldupside, like they were part of
the problem.
You could spend every night ofthe week doing some churchy
activity, you know what I mean.
You could be just as busy.
You're just doing churchy stuff, and I don't think that's what

(52:34):
we're talking about.
One thing I would want to affirmis that the places people are
spending their time let's say,coaching a baseball team or
their kids' sports those areactually places of mission where
God is at work and you can be apart of it.
There's one way to go to asporting event where you're just
kind of like it's all about thekids or whatever.

(52:55):
There's another way of showingup where you're like hey, this
is a place of mission.
I can get to know all of theseparents.
Some of them are like on aspirit.
All of them are on a spiritualjourney in some place, and Some
of them are like on a spirit.
All of them are on a spiritualjourney in some place, and this
is actually like me being thechurch in this area.

Josiah (53:11):
right, yeah, maybe there's some of the kids you're
finding relational connectionwith and you find out like
they're struggling with thingsand you're able to be God's
presence in their life.
So I yeah, Do you get what I'maffirming?

Mac (53:22):
Like these are places of mission rather than the church.
Creating a baseball league inorder to get people to come to
our church Like you're at thebaseball league and be on
mission there, but when thatbaseball league like replaces
church community, that is, Ithink, the problem we're
starting to name.

Katie (53:40):
Yep Right, it's not a sacred secular divide.
Oh, when you're at church,you're in the sacred and that's
just secular.
So don't think about it.
It's actually all of it is onmission, but in order to be
living on mission, it's prettyimportant to have a hub.

Mac (53:52):
Yeah, that's right, and I would even say, given all these
statistics we've named, it'sgoing to become increasingly
important, given that less andless people are just going to
show up to a service on Sunday,that our everyday, ordinary
people live on mission in thesespaces.
Like you're part of the future,of reaching this current
generation.

Katie (54:10):
Yeah, yeah.

Mac (54:11):
But here's the challenge and, katie, you and I heard this
challenge.
We were talking to our goodfriend Michael Bender who's?
a professor up at Luther and wewere talking about some of these
dynamics and he just said mostpeople are leaving churches for
flimsy reasons.
It's way easier to stop goingto church than it is to stay

(54:33):
committed at a church.
Like it's relatively easy tonot go to church.
Eugene Peterson tells a storyabout a guy who was like when he
planted his church there, fromday one, super plugged in, super
invested, involved all the waythrough, like eventually
building a building and like allof it several years, invested,

(54:54):
day in and day out, and then oneseason just stopped showing up.
So Eugene Peterson called himlike maybe a month or two after
not seeing him.
I was like, hey, I haven't seenyou.
What's going on?
And he's like well, I decidedto go fishing on a Sunday
morning and I decided I likethat better.
So the reason why hede-churched is because he
discovered fishing is fun.

Josiah (55:15):
Yeah, well, and I thought of something, and it
will probably be a little bit ofa preview into our next episode
, but if church was primarilyjust a place for you to attend
on Sunday morning, and that'swhat it meant to be, a part of a
church community to you whichyou know without assigning blame

(55:36):
or fault, then busy schedulesjust become the last straw.
Yeah, so it's.
You're not actuallyprioritizing making sure I'm
connected in a community or thehub, as you said, and getting my
life input and relationshipsand all these things.
When church isn't that and akid has a sporting event on the

(55:58):
weekend, why would I prioritize,like, why would I prioritize
that when this other thingrequires a lot more investment
from me?
Yeah, if all church was to mewas attendance on a Sunday
morning, then it's very easy tosee why that would lower on
priority for me.

Katie (56:17):
Yeah, I think that's such a good point, because if you're
in that category well, I usedto go to church and now I don't
because I have these otherthings Then I would really want
to look back at what was church.
How were you orienting thechurch when you were going?
Because, man, I see a lot of myown story in this as I look
back.
When we moved to Oconomowocfrom Madison five or six years

(56:37):
ago, I was commuting fromOconomowoc to Madison five days
a week.
I was gone 10, 11 plus hours aday.
I had toddlers at home.
I mean, I was exhausted and wemade it to church every Sunday,
but I did not have the margin todo much outside of that.
I wanted to do groups and serveand all these other things, but
I just didn't have the marginfor it.
But I yearned for it.
I remember praying like Godhelp me find margin.

(57:00):
I want to be more plugged in, Iwant to be more deeply invested
.
I just I don't know how, but Ithink that's because I had
experience of what church couldbe and it's a beautiful thing.
And so I just think, man, thoseother areas I was giving my
time could never do what churchcould do for me, like God just

(57:24):
doesn't meet you there in thesame place.

Mac (57:26):
Yeah, I think what I hear you guys saying is is, if church
is just about attending aservice on the weekends, well
then it's pretty easy whenbusyness creeps up to just kind
of like lose that.
But if it's, if it's aboutdoing life with a group of
people in the way of Jesus andbeing part of the work God's
doing in the world, well that's,that's different.

(57:48):
Like what was the substance ofyour church experience or
involvement frames things in asignificant way, and I think the
challenge that I'm trying tocalibrate, if it's just about
these shifting priorities, isthat we're living in a culture
of disordered desires andmisplaced priorities, and I see
a lot of people de-churching whoare actually falling victim to

(58:13):
those disordered desires andmisplaced priorities, living
vicariously through their kids,consumerism, greed, whatever it
is.
I'm going, man, the thingyou're pivoting out of is just a
cultural accommodation.

Katie (58:27):
Fishing's great, yeah, but it will never give you what
doing life together in deep,meaningful, jesus-centered
community.

Josiah (58:34):
Yeah, yeah.
And it's not worth demonizingthe thing, it's not worth saying
hey, baseball's evil.
No we need to start speakingout against baseball leagues
Right, because you're namingthat when you are coming from a
place of like this is mycommunity.
I'm following Jesus.
Now I walk into the baseball asthe coach, being the church,

(58:54):
being the church out in thecommunity, which is like the
whole point.
Yeah, right, right right andfishing, Fishing.
I don't fish often, but when Igo it is such a forced time of
sitting out in nature and doingnothing else.
I'm often connecting with mybrothers and my family.
I get away, I unplug from thecares and worries of life and I

(59:17):
often experience God's presencein those moments.
So fishing is not the issue.
Fishing could be used as awonderful vehicle for connecting
with God and for devotion andfor all these other types of
things.

Mac (59:28):
The problem isn't the activity.
The problem is the priorityyou're putting on the activity
right In terms of the time andall of that and the way you're
engaging it.

Josiah (59:37):
Yes, and your heart is the thing that God is actually
after.
So I know people who are a partof our church, who live very
busy lives but are veryconnected to this community, and
there are plenty of Sundayswhere it's like, oh, I miss them
and you often wonder oh, whereare they?
Oh yeah, that's right, they'retraveling for work, or they did

(59:59):
have a kid sporting event, andyou miss them and they miss you
and you find other ways toconnect, because it's not just
like being here on Sundaymorning, it's about connecting.

Mac (01:00:10):
We all have the same amount of time and you make time for
what's most important.

Josiah (01:00:16):
Yeah.

Mac (01:00:17):
So church hurt.
Deconstruction shiftingpriorities.

Katie (01:00:22):
Yeah, maybe a related one .
I think this is going to besomewhat similar to shifting
priorities, but I would justname preferences.
There are people who I thinkhave stopped attending because
the church just stopped meetingtheir preferences in some
capacity, and we talked aboutthis in our last series.
We did an episode on what wecalled consumerism.
But there are differentpreferences around worship,

(01:00:45):
style preaching I can't tell youhow many people have said like,
oh yeah, I used to go therebecause so-and-so preached and
now they don't preach as often,or they left or whatever.
Just different types ofprogramming, convenience of
watching online versus not.
Sometimes there's likepolitical preferences.
I wish they would talk aboutthis more or that more.
And so I think, as with theseother categories, like I would

(01:01:08):
affirm something here.
Like your time is precious,we're all busy.
If you're gonna spend an hour,two plus, each week, you
obviously want to go somewherethat you enjoy being and
somewhere that kind of alignswith your personality, maybe the
denomination you grew up withand helps you connect with God

(01:01:29):
in the way that you're wired.
Another thing I would affirm isthere are so many options.
I think today, especially inLake Country, if you look around
, there are so many churches inthis area, so many churches.
It's like we have unlimitedoptions and heck.
If you don't wanna go to achurch, you could just curate
your own online churchexperience by listening to
whatever pastor you want.
You can pull a sermon from anychurch across the country, or

(01:01:51):
across the globe, for thatmatter.

Mac (01:01:53):
Dude.
I know one guy who I wasrecently talking to.
Okay, he listens to a preacherin a completely different state,
like that's his staple sermon,like for the week.
So he listens to some otherpastor preach every week.
He goes to another church forworship and then goes to a

(01:02:16):
different church for likecommunity and relationships.

Josiah (01:02:22):
Buffet style yeah.

Mac (01:02:25):
So here's what's happening, you guys, is we're living in an
individualistic culture or it'sall about me and a
consumeristic culture, and whenyou fuse those together, it's
really quite scary, because nowI can curate my spirituality.

Josiah (01:02:40):
Yeah you have access to anything we want Create your own
journey.

Mac (01:02:44):
Right, yeah, and again, some of the trends we see around
church growth, even locally,it's just the nonstop influence
of consumer Christianity that,oh, this church has this
programs and I really like ituntil I don't, and then I'll go
to the next church that has theprograms and the preaching and
the worship that I like until Idon't, and then right.

Katie (01:03:05):
It reminds me of the.
Spotify has those like dailymix.
Here's your little jazz and alittle pop country and a little
of this and a little of that.

Mac (01:03:12):
Yes, yeah, and you know again, I think I would affirm,
katie, one thing that you said,which is like it's totally
reasonable to do your homeworkon a church.

Josiah (01:03:23):
And to want to enjoy it.

Mac (01:03:25):
To make sure you're reasonably aligned.
Yeah, Okay, but I'll say thislike maybe some expectation
setting here when I was doingsome realigning of our staff and
actually looking to hire theposition you fill, okay, one of
the things I did was I created ajob description and a candidate
profile Like here's the jobthat this person will do and

(01:03:47):
here's the ideal person that Iwould want, like the type of
person I'd want to fill thisrole.
And I remember the personguiding me through this process
said Mac, you have put togetheran awesome job description and a
very thick personality profileor candidate profile.
If you were to get 80% of this,that would be incredible.

Katie (01:04:10):
Lower your expectations a bit.

Mac (01:04:11):
Well, it was just some expectation setting Like you did
it.
You know what you're lookingfor.
If you get 80% of this man, youguys are going to be an awesome
team and you're going to crushit.
I think I got about 93%.
Well thanks, but okay, so whenyou're looking for a church,
like you're not going to get100% right.

(01:04:32):
So the point is is I would wantto validate, given all the
options and so on, do yourhomework, make sure you're
reasonably aligned, but knowthat you're not going to get
100% right.
But then the challenge I thinkI have in this with this reason,
is that man consumers makereally crummy disciples.
I'm just naming it.
It's time to stop engagingJesus with a church like a

(01:04:55):
vending machine of religiousgoods and services.
And what's concerning to me,especially with all the online
options, is not just that peoplecan customize their own
formation using their smartphoneor podcast app or whatever, but
it's that they actually can endup stop following Jesus
altogether because they'recreating a Jesus in their own

(01:05:16):
image.
Like it's just way too easy.
It's actually in community withpeople that, like you're
challenged to see thingsdifferently or you know, journey
with people over time, or likelike it's essential to the
process of formation.

Katie (01:05:33):
Yes, if this is about your preferences, then you're
going to have one way oforienting.
If it's about your spiritualformation, that looks very
different.

Josiah (01:05:42):
Yeah Well, I would say that this affects way more than
just church attendance.
That would be sort of I guess Iwould have some empathy that
our entire culture, especiallyin Western culture in America,
has been discipled into this, asyou're naming, and a byproduct

(01:06:04):
of that has been like it hastrickled into the church,
especially in the evangelicalchurch model, the church growth
model that we've talked a lotabout, church planting, all of
these things that they're.
Honestly, a lot of churchesleverage consumerism in order to
grow attendance and to havemore success.
So I guess I would say thatit's sort of trickled into

(01:06:26):
church, but our whole culture isjust swimming in it.
I think it affectsrelationships, it affects
marriages, it affects all thesedifferent things, and the
challenge is that we need tomaybe to use the word
deconstruct this notion thatchurch is going to meet all of

(01:06:46):
my preferences.

Mac (01:06:48):
Yeah, so we like again.
The deconstruction for me isnot just a matter of, like,
deconstructing theology orbiblical concepts.
I'm also a person who spends alot of time deconstructing the
cultural scripts I'm beinghanded right Like.
I want to ask, I want tointerrogate the assumptions that
are normative in our cultureand what you find oftentimes

(01:07:12):
when you do that for instance,maybe individualism and
consumerism is that is foreignto the New Testament.
You think about the very firstword in the Lord's prayer is our
Father.
It's not my father, yeah, it'sour father.
There's no imagination, um, inthe early church for, like, hey,
me and my spirituality livingit out by myself, like that is a

(01:07:34):
completely um foreign conceptforeign concept.

Katie (01:07:39):
Yeah, yeah.
And I think, just to summarize,I think what I hear us saying
is that when we learn to layaside our preferences for the
sake of something bigger thanourselves, something really
beautiful happens, like it'ssort of like the point of doing
church.

Mac (01:07:52):
Yeah, Jesus didn't say if you want to be my disciple, come
and consume.
He used a different C word,which is pick up your cross.

Josiah (01:08:02):
Yeah, all right.
Reason number five was addedbecause, as you'll see in a
second, it really does fall intoits own category.
Using some of the machinelearning profiles that the book
used sort of uncovered thatthere really is a separate
category for people within thiscategory and it makes up a large

(01:08:25):
percentage of people who do notgo to church anymore, and it's
for one simple reason they moved.
So people there is a largeamount of people, millions of
people all across America statedthat I'm still a professing
Christian.
They would get a score on,essentially, their adherence to

(01:08:50):
some of the basic Christianbeliefs and anyway they're an
orthodoxy score.
Sorry, I was trying to find theword.
They're Christian people.
They were a part of a churchbefore and they would love to be
a part of another one, but theymoved and either haven't gotten
around to it yet or haven'tbeen able to find one that they

(01:09:12):
felt like they could plug into.

Mac (01:09:15):
Yeah, and I might broaden this reason from move to just
like life transitions.
That's like a type oftransition which is to move from
one community to another orwhatever.
But I'm noticing this I'venoticed this in the last like
three or four years that there'sa like empty nesters.
I noticed a lot of people startto find, like find a church,

(01:09:36):
and then deeply plug in whenthey have kids, because they
want their kids to be supportedin their faith journey, which is
great, right.
But then what ends up happeningis eventually their kids grow
up and so that impetus isn'tthere anymore.
And then when their kids moveout of the house, man, they
often lose their footing right.

(01:09:58):
They rely on sort of theinvestment they made years prior
and now this church iscontinuing to change and more,
for whatever, they no longerfeel as connected as they once
did and, apart from finding away to engage church in their
new reality as a couple that nolonger has kids in the home,
they can flounder and thengradually lose that rhythm.

(01:10:18):
It becomes less and lessimportant and now we no longer
have a church.
Maybe you add on that.
Hey, we now can travel more andwe can do all these fun things,
but I think, empty nesters.
I'm just noticing a lot ofcouples who go from raising kids
to being empty nesters.
It's not just a tough time formarriages.
Sometimes it also drasticallyshifts how they're orienting to

(01:10:42):
a church community.

Katie (01:10:43):
Yeah, I see that.

Josiah (01:10:45):
Yeah, and often it goes back to some preferences too,
like the ways that they feltreally connected to church.
Now that they aren't raisingkids, they find themselves
feeling like they're on theoutside of the actual community.

Mac (01:10:57):
Yeah, and there's a lot I would want to affirm here.
Like, life transitions are hard.
They are and they disruptrhythms and it can feel
disorienting.
So for this reason, there's somuch I would want to affirm.
I get it.
There's grace for disruption ofrhythms and space and so on,
but my challenge is that part ofnavigating a life transition

(01:11:17):
well is making sure you'reprioritizing the things that are
most important along the way,and I mean when you have a child
, when you go from, like youknow, when you have a child,
when you go from, like you know,when you have a baby in the
house, I would say part of thesuccess of navigating adding a
new family member is stillfiguring out how to prioritize
your marriage.

Katie (01:11:37):
Right.

Mac (01:11:38):
It's kind of like that.

Katie (01:11:40):
Yeah, and we have a whole group of people that are kind
of in that empty nester phase inour church and we as a church
staff kept kind of hearing somesimilar feelings of just not
feeling as connected.
People that still came here butjust were saying, hey, I'm
having a hard time, like some ofmy friends have left or
whatever, and so that group isactually getting together.

(01:12:01):
Right, we have they're callingthemselves like the boomers club
and now the whole group isgetting together and doing like
coffee hours and, you know,maybe going through a book, and
they're finding a way to supporteach other and walk together in
that season.

Josiah (01:12:12):
Yeah, that's beautiful.
Yeah, yeah, the the movingpiece I have had.
It's really interesting.
Since reading the book, I thinkI can count at least three
different conversations withpeople I have had who aren't
going to church right now andthe reason why they're not is
because either a major lifetransition or they moved.
Two of them had moved and haddabbled and tried a couple of

(01:12:35):
churches and just never reallyfound the right one and they
were very connected before theywent all the time.

Mac (01:12:42):
What was wrong?
Their worship leader wasn'tcool enough, or what.
Yeah.

Josiah (01:12:45):
Yeah, his genes were not tight enough?
I guess no.
But it's interesting that thosepeople are very on the outside,
very open and often very vocalabout saying, oh, I'd love to go
to church, yeah, and they'llask me about ours, and really
there's nothing else to do atthat point besides go to church.

(01:13:10):
Yeah, right, there's not amajor thing to overcome except
making a plan and then going,and so the challenge would be
you're not going to find a newchurch home at home?
Yeah, you're going to need toleave the house and you're going
to need to make a plan andyou're going to have to commit.

(01:13:30):
This is what I did tell someonewho was the husband and wife.
They were both on either sideof me and they were kind of
talking about why they don't goand they both had different
church backgrounds and now theyhave kids and they're trying to
figure out like, oh, I went tothis one, I didn't really like
it, all this kind of stuff.
The challenge was you can'tjust visit a church once and

(01:13:52):
know everything they're about.
So pick one and attend for acertain amount of time and then
see what happens.

Mac (01:14:00):
Yeah, and see what the spirit of God is doing.
Instead of just approaching achurch, going, hey, do I like
the religious goods and services, find a church where you sense
the spirit of God is doingsomething and then join that
work.
That's the key.
All right, it is Praxis time.
Welcome to the Praxis podcast.
There's a button for that.

Josiah (01:14:22):
Yeah, right.

Adam (01:14:23):
That's good, nope.
Nope Praxis podcast there we go, there we go, found it.

Mac (01:14:29):
So let's shift gears and get some practices in place.
Like, if you're listening tothis conversation, what can you
do, like concretely, and I'llstart us out.
So practice number one is toget compassionately curious.
The biggest takeaway perhaps ifyou're listening to this
conversation is when youconsider this category of people

(01:14:49):
of de-churched.
Not everybody has de-churchedfor the same reason, and we
haven't even named all of thereasons.
We've just named five of them,and so your first move is always
to get curious with the personwho has de-churched.
Why have you de-churched?
Right?
Get curious and notice.
Compassionately curious.
In other words, avoid thatreactivity where you are anxious

(01:15:12):
that they're no longer a partof a church or you feel
compelled to like defend why yougo to church or insist upon why
it's important.
Avoid making blanketedstatements or assumptions.
Don't be judgmental, right?
Stay curious, ask questions andyour primary focus should be
being safe, a safe person who isnon-reactive and validate as

(01:15:35):
much as you possibly can, right?
That's the first pivot and I'vegot countless stories where I've
been able to do that.
I've just listened and askedquestions, tried to remain
non-defensive or non-reactive.
Thank the person for sharingtheir entrusting part of their
story to you, and oftentimesthey're just shocked because I'm
a pastor they know that.

(01:15:57):
And especially when I start tovalidate some of their reasons
like yeah, I see that and that'snot right.
Or man, that is painful, I'msorry, right, they're just kind
of blown away by that.
And so I think there's so muchpotential and opportunity in
these conversations if we canjust relate to them with

(01:16:18):
compassion and curiosity.

Katie (01:16:19):
And, I would add, and do so for the genuine desire of
relating to them and affirmingtheir story right, not just
going.
Okay, here's a new tactic.
I'm going to try to get themback in church, like no, these
are people with real stories andwe should do that, regardless
of where it leads.

Mac (01:16:30):
Yeah.
So here's the, here's the thing, and I'm okay, let's just name
it.
If you're concerned about these, these 40 million people have
de-churched.
It'd be easy to go okay, whatdo I, what?
What do we do to get them back?
Well, in this first practice ofgetting compassionately curious
is actually, you need to attendto your own transformation.
You need to become the kind ofperson who can hold space with

(01:16:55):
those in this category,non-defensively, non-reactively,
with genuine curiosity.

Katie (01:17:01):
And no agenda and no agenda Like.

Mac (01:17:03):
the first move is for you to become the kind of person who
can be on mission well.

Katie (01:17:08):
Yeah, it's a good word.

Josiah (01:17:10):
Yeah, love it.

Katie (01:17:12):
Yeah, another practice would just be to pray for these
people, pray for the de-churchedpeople in your life.
Ask God to open doors forrelationship with people If you
don't currently have them, or ifyou do, just pray, I mean,
spend some time and lift uptheir names and faces and
stories and ask God to opendoors for you to be in

(01:17:33):
conversation with them.
If you do sense any frustrationor judgment, like maybe you're
listening and you notice thatbubbling up in you, ask God to
soften your heart Again.
I think what you just said, mac.
This is primarily about our owntransformation.
I think that's really importantand let's just remember that
it's not ultimately our workthat's going to redeem the
church's witness in the world.

(01:17:54):
Like we can try with all ourmight, but we're not gonna be
able to restore and redeem thismess that we're in.
It's going to have to be God atwork in and through us, and so
I think we pray for that.

Mac (01:18:05):
So can we like yeah, piggybacking on that, broaden it
.
Yes, it is praying for thosewho have de-churched, that you
know in your life and that Godwould be at work and that you
would notice opportunities tojoin in, but it's also let's
pray for the church, becausepart of the reason people have
walked away from the church isbecause we've had an abysmal
presence and we need to betransformed.
And so let's pray for ourtransformation, that we would be

(01:18:29):
changed and become the kind ofpeople who can do this work.
Yeah, that's a good word.

Josiah (01:18:33):
Yeah, that's good.
Yeah, last practice I wouldname is to identify your why.
And this does kind of set upwhat the next episode is going
to be, is going to be.
But it'd be good for you to, ifyou are a part of a church, now
find some ways of identifyingwhat your reasons are for
belonging to a church community.

(01:18:53):
And this is like one stepfurther than just why do I
follow Jesus?
Obviously that's important too,so we're assuming that.
But why is it important for meto be a part of a church
community?
What would I be missing out onif I didn't?

Mac (01:19:08):
Free coffee on Sundays Donuts once a month.

Josiah (01:19:15):
Yeah, having a bit of a stump speech goes a long way.
I've noticed that in some ofthese conversations I played in
a softball in an extra softballleague this summer and got to
build a lot of relationshipswith people.
None of them are churched atall, but I did notice that a lot
of conversations came up andbeing able to name like, affirm,

(01:19:39):
like yeah that sucks.
I don't like that either.
About church, and here's whyI'm a part of one.
That either about church, um,and here's why I'm a part of one
.
And being able to name thatgoes a long way to having
openness within relationshipswith people.
Um, yeah, so if you'relistening to this and you're a
part of a church, now a practiceyou could be is like, come up
with your own little stumpspeech and don't make it fake.

(01:20:01):
Like authentically, why are youa part of a church community,
um, and why, why is thatimportant to you?
And if you're listening to thisand you have de-churched, ask
yourself if some of thesereasons resonate with you, like,
find out, hey, wherecategorically am I?
And what would it look like toinvite the Holy Spirit to lead

(01:20:24):
you to a next step of some sort?
And what would it look like toinvite the Holy Spirit to lead
you to a next step of some sort,whether that's finding you know
, if you're in the lifetransition part and you're like
I have, I've just been enjoyingsleeping in and not doing stuff
on Sunday and I kind of want achurch and you know well, then I
would suggest that maybe thenext step is go find one, Go

(01:20:45):
start.

Katie (01:20:45):
Make your pancakes a little earlier.

Josiah (01:20:47):
Yeah.

Mac (01:20:48):
Yeah, all right.
Well, big picture, you guys.
We are not in Kansas anymore.
The religious landscape isshifting dramatically, as droves

(01:21:13):
of people who were once part ofa church no longer are, and the
point of today was to simplyname many of the reasons, some
of the core reasons why peopleare de-churching and validate
and challenge some of those,while also attending to our own
transformation.

Katie (01:21:16):
Yeah Well, thanks for joining us today.
We hope you enjoyed today'sepisode.
Next time we'll continue theseries on the great de-churching
.
We'll focus on what people aremissing out on when they are
disconnected from a churchcommunity.

Adam (01:21:29):
So if you enjoy the show, consider leaving a review, and
if you haven't already, be sureto subscribe.
Wherever you get your podcasts.

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Why Are People Leaving the Church?

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