August 19, 2024 • 30 mins
"If the solution is something that looks and smells like yogurt that you make in your kitchen, what's the problem, right?”
Dr. William Davis discusses the widespread issue of Small Intestinal Bacterial Overgrowth (SIBO) and its impact on overall health. He introduces a simple, yet effective solution: homemade probiotic yogurt.
Dr. Davis explains how modern lifestyles have disrupted our gut microbiome, leading to various health issues. He emphasizes the importance of restoring beneficial bacteria through fermented foods and specific probiotic strains.
Learn how to make SIBO yogurt at home and potentially improve conditions like depression, anxiety, and even hormone levels. Dr. Davis also discusses the importance of avoiding grains and sugar while embracing healthy fats and real foods.
(Kismet: Interestingly, the bacteria in this yogurt may also increase empathy and social connectedness, potentially addressing rising narcissistic behavior in society.)
Guest: Dr. William Davis, author of "Super Gut”
Host: Jack Heald (https://wizardofads.org/partner/jack-heald)
For more information:
Dr. Davis' blog: https://www.wheatbellyblog.com/
Super Gut book: https://www.amazon.com/Super-Gut-Reprogram-Restore-Health/dp/0306846950
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Well, I'm thrilled to welcome Dr William Davis to the
Predictive Health Clinic today.
I talked to Dr Davis a coupleof years ago on Philip Ovedia's
podcast and I took someinformation away from that that
I have used ever since.
I make my own yogurt now.
Well, my wife and I make ourown yogurt.
(00:21):
So, Dr Davis, welcome.
What specific health issue doyou want to address today on the
Predictive Health Clinic?
Speaker 2 (00:46):
only an exceptional person had this, but having
rethought this and now testedhundreds, perhaps thousands of
people, it's now become clear.
I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
No problem.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
It's now become clear .
It is everywhere.
In fact, I would go so far asto say it is the biggest
epidemic.
I would go so far as to say itis the biggest epidemic, the
biggest health crisis ourspecies has ever faced.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Small intestine bacterial overgrowth SIBO.
I've heard the word before, butI'm not sure I actually knew
what it was.
Well, ordinarily at this pointI'd ask what got you interested
in this particular issue?
But I think you just stated whyyou're interested, and
ordinarily I wouldn't ask thisquestion.
(01:29):
But I think we need some help.
This is not something that'scommonly talked about.
So what are the signs andsymptoms?
Speaker 2 (01:42):
So I look for this because I was looking for any
advantage we can to furtherpeople's health and youthfulness
, and it's become clear thatdysbiosis, that is, disruptions
of the microbial populations inyour colon, that is, the
terminal four to five feet ofthe gastrointestinal tract, that
disruption of those species iseverywhere Because we've been
(02:06):
wildly overexposed toantibiotics, to other things
that disrupt microbes, likeglyphosate, the active
ingredient in Roundup herbicide,used by millions of tons
throughout the world.
Now Preservatives that haveantimicrobial properties in food
, but also in you, the bowelprep that is often used before
(02:26):
your cold.
Whoa, whoa, whoa whoa whoa.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Preservatives have antimicrobial?
Of course they do.
I hadn't even thought about thefact that when you're consuming
food that has preservatives init, you're basically shoving
antibiotics down your gut.
I hadn't even thought aboutthat.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
For instance, the potassium sorbate or sodium
benzoate or BHT, a long, longlist of effect.
They inhibit mostly molds, butthey also have broader
antimicrobial properties in thehuman GI tract.
And then people are takingstomach acid blocking drugs,
which takes away the protectionthat stomach acid provided
against oral microbes and theascent of fecal microbes.
(03:07):
Non-steroidal anti-inflammatorydrugs, chlorinated drinking
water, emulsifying agents in icecream and salad dress Jack, on
and on.
We are battered by an onslaughtof factors that have killed off
, literally killed off or atleast suppressed, hundreds of
microbes, healthy microbes inthe colon.
Well, that allowed fecalmicrobes, very tough fecal
(03:29):
microbes.
These are microbes that manypeople would recognize, like E
coli and salmonella andcampylobacter.
They recognize them becausethey're also common causes of
food poisoning.
So if you ingest, say, foodprepared by some kid at a fast
food restaurant who didn't washhis hands properly after going
number two and contaminated yourfood, those fecal microbes are
(03:51):
not well tolerated in the smallintestine when you ingest it.
Likewise, when fecal microbesascend into the small intestine,
it's not well tolerated you,but you'll experience it,
because those microbes don't letlive very.
They live for a few hours.
That's it.
So.
Trillions of microbes livingand dying rapidly in the 24 feet
of small intestine release someof their toxic components, a
(04:14):
principle among which issomething called
lipopolysaccharide, endotoxin,or we say endotoxin.
Endotoxin enters the bloodstream.
How does someone experience it?
Toxin Endotoxin enters thebloodstream.
How does someone experience it?
As depression, as anxiety, assuicidal thoughts, as dementia,
(04:36):
cognitive impairment, or asmuscle pains like fibromyalgia,
or joint pains like rheumatoidarthritis, or metabolic disease
like type 2 diabetes,hypertension, fatty liver and
heart disease, coronaryarydisease or atrial fibrillation.
So virtually all human diseaseoutside of infection,
conventional infection likepneumococcal pneumonia, uh,
outside of injury.
But all those conditions we'reall familiar with gout, calcium
(04:59):
oxalate, kidney stones, heartattack all these things have a
major role played by thegastrointestinal microbiome.
So the doctor who's whoignorantly prescribes, for
instance, lipitor to reducecholesterol, reduce
cardiovascular risk, oribuprofen or naproxen for your
(05:19):
arthritis pain, or an SSRI foryour depression?
They ignorantly ignore thedramatic contribution of the
microbiome via endotoxemia.
So hundreds of healthconditions, jack, have to be
re-examined in light of thisprocess.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Well, that's interesting, because the
question that comes next iswhat's the biggest popular
misconception about this issue?
And it sounds like the answeris an awful lot of diverse
diseases and health dysfunctionsthat we attribute to unique
causes share at least a commonfactor in this endotoxemia.
(06:01):
Is that fair to summarize it?
Endotoxemia Is that fair tosummarize it?
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Absolutely right.
The turning point for me, jack,was the invention of this
device called the AIR deviceA-I-R-E.
This is the original from a fewyears ago.
This is the more recent one.
It's now black A-I-R-E,invented by an Irish PhD
engineer who wanted to assessgas production in the breath.
(06:25):
Because we've known even beforethe invention of the air device
that when you have microbes inyour GI tract, they produce
hydrogen gas.
We don't Humans don't producehydrogen gas.
We produce other gases.
We don't produce hydrogen gas,microbes do.
And these devices can be used asa mapping device to tell you
where microbes are living.
You're supposed to havemicrobes in the colon producing
(06:46):
hydrogen gas, but you don't.
You should not have them in thesmall intestine, in the
esophagus, stomach, duodenum,jejunum, ileum, and you can use
this device to map wheremicrobes are.
So I started doing this inhundreds, now thousands, of
people and to my great surprise,it was the rare person who
tested negative.
Now you might say, well, maybethe device, maybe the concept is
(07:06):
flawed, but we'd have anabnormal reading.
It's a 0 to 10 reading.
Talk to your smartphone.
Someone would have an abnormalreading.
Take steps to normalize thesituation, push back fecal
microbes in the small intestine.
And then good things happen.
Their weight loss plateaufinally broke, their hemoglobin
A1C finally dropped to below 5%,their arthritis pain finally
(07:27):
disappeared completely, theirskin rashes went away, their
depression lifted.
In other words, we saw dramatichealth benefits by pushing back
the presence of fecal microbesin the small intestine.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Okay.
Would it be fair to postulatethat if you're dealing with a
stubborn health issue, considerthe possibility that endotoxemia
yes, that's correct,endotoxemia, toxicity that
originates inside yourself is atleast playing a part in the in
(08:04):
the whatever ill health you'reexperiencing?
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Absolutely.
Now here's the problem.
What if I said, jack, thesolution for your SIBO and
endotoxin is to remove yoursmall intestine surgically?
You'd say, well, hit the roadbus.
That's stupid.
You better be damn confidentthat this is necessary.
But what if the solution issomething that looks and smells
like yogurt?
So I invented a formulationthat I call SIBO yogurt, and
(08:33):
it's just three microbes it'slactobacillus roteri that you're
familiar with, it'slactobacillus gasseri and
bacillus coagulans.
I chose those three microbes fortwo reasons.
One, they colonize the smallintestine where SIBO occurs and
they produce bacteriocins,natural antibiotics that kill
(08:56):
fecal microbes.
So so far, of the 50 peoplewho've done this, 90% have
normalized their H2 breathtesting.
Now you don't need that device.
The device is great, it's veryclever and it can be very
helpful, but you don't need thedevice to prove it.
If you have, for instance, foodintolerances, an extremely
common expression of SIBO or ifyou have conditions that are
(09:20):
virtually synonymous with SIBOirritable bowel syndrome,
fibromyalgia, sleep apnea,restless leg syndrome, obesity,
type 2 diabetes, aneurodegenerative disorder, an
autoimmune condition you can beassured you have SIBO or, at the
very least, colonic dysbiosisbased colonic dysbiosis.
(09:47):
We reintroduced these threemicrobes lost by nearly
everybody and so far it hasexceeded far beyond my
expectation.
I I formulated that combinationin the hopes that people
experience some reduction inbloating and diarrhea.
No, it got rid of sebo.
Now we'll do a formal clinicaltrial to prove it.
I'm trying to develop thefunding.
That's the problem.
Outside of pharma.
You know farmers loaded withbillions and billions of dollars
to fund their BS research.
(10:09):
We don't, right.
We don't have billions.
I have hundreds of thousands ofdollars.
I blew my last $150,000 on asmall mouse trial, a human
clinical trial.
We're accumulating our fundingand we will do a clinical trial
to prove this.
This works, but I can tell youit's.
If the solution check issomething that looks and smells
(10:30):
like yogurt that you make inyour kitchen, what's the problem
, right?
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Okay, I love the way, I love how you're communicating
here, because you'reanticipating most of the
questions that I'm going to askbefore I get there.
One of the questions that Ithink the next question is
what's the likely outcome ifpeople don't take action?
And I think you've laid thatout pretty clearly, that out
(11:04):
pretty clearly, and then solet's go ahead and go.
What specific actions shouldpeople take if they recognize
themselves here?
Sounds like it might be theyogurt, but you probably should
go into more detail.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Yeah, the yogurt is very helpful, very effective,
far beyond my expectations.
But there's other things peopleshould do.
So, jack, I liken an effort tocultivate a healthy
gastrointestinal microbiome tohaving a backyard vegetable
garden.
So let's say it's springtime,you lay out a 10 by 10 plot, you
pick out the twigs and thestones, you then plant seeds and
(11:37):
then you water and fertilize it.
Well, the gastrointestinalmicrobiome is very similar.
So you prepare the soil bygetting rid of things that
disrupt it.
So there's no deer or stoneshere, but there's things like
chlorinated drinking water,stomach acid, blocking drugs,
antibiotic exposure.
Take antibiotics if you must,but only an absolute minimum
when it's truly, truly necessary.
(11:57):
Preservatives, as you know, inmost clang ages.
There's a whole long list ofthings you can do.
It's all in my Super Gut book.
It's all in my blog, williamDavis MD blog.
So, clean up your life, preparethe soil, plant the seeds.
The seeds, the primary seed,are fermented foods.
(12:17):
These are things like kimchiand kefir and yogurts real
yogurt, not the junk sold ingrocery stores.
Sauerkraut, veggies you fermenton your kitchen counter.
It should be easy and virtuallyfree, except for the cost of
your veggies.
Easy to do you can find basicfermentation strategies all
(12:37):
around the internet, like myfriend Donna Schwank,
s-e-h-w-e-n-k, or my websitesand books, you can find basic
ways to ferment foods.
The interesting thing aboutfermented foods, jack, is the
species of, say, sauerkraut orkimchi don't actually themselves
take up residence in the GItract.
So species like Luganostoc orPediococcus don't take up
(13:00):
residence, they just passthrough.
But in the passage through the30 feet of gastrointestinal
tract they cultivate verypowerfully healthy species that
are beneficial to you.
These are species likeFecalobacterium acromantia,
lagnospiration, many others.
So fermented foods are the wayto begin the seeding process of
your gastrointestinal tract.
Then we restore lost microbeslike the ones I mentioned
(13:22):
lactobacillus roteri,lactobacillus gastri and
bacillus coagulans.
And bacillus subtilis isanother really important one.
We restore those microbes.
You can do it as yogurt, youcan do it as a sparkling juice.
So some of these microbes likebacillus subtilis and Bacillus
(13:43):
coagulans and some otherbeneficial species like the
fungal species, saccharomycesboulardii, make delicious
sparkling juices.
So I have some mango passionfruit sparkling juice in my
kitchen.
It tastes like mango soda.
It's delicious.
So that re-implants thesebeneficial species All the
recipes, by the way, in theSuper Gut book and my blog and
then we feed them, we water andfertilize them.
(14:06):
We don't have to water them, ofcourse, but we fertilize them
with fibers.
These are fibers from plantmatter for the most part.
That is, from legumes likeblack beans, white beans,
chickpeas, hummus, onions,garlic, shallots, other root
vegetables, and you feed themand they proliferate.
So it's a very simple process.
It is outside of the mainstreamexperience because, as you know,
(14:29):
most of my colleagues arecompletely ignorant on real
issues of health, nutrition,nutritional supplements and the
microbiome.
It's wrong.
They should be experts inhealth but they're not.
They're experts in the businessof healthcare how to generate
revenue from pharmaceuticals andprocedures and they're not
experts in health.
So, sadly, and you know this,except for nice people like Dr
(14:51):
Philip Ovadia, who is an expertin health, most of our
colleagues are not.
And so the last if you went toyour doctor and said, hey, doc,
I think I have SIBO because Ihave diarrhea and bloating and
I'm intolerant to nuts andeggplant and tomatoes and eggs
and about 35 other foods thatgive me joint pains, asthma and
(15:12):
skin rashes, the doctor says, oh, it's in your head.
Or don't waste my time, or didyou consult Dr Google again,
jack?
Or some other bullshit answer.
And yet they don't even beginto address the real cause.
But the great thing about this,if the solution is so easy, so
safe.
So if someone made that SIBOyogurt, for instance, and got
(15:35):
rid of fibromyalgia, joint painor irritable bowel syndrome or
depression or anxiety orsuicidal tendencies or low
testosterone or vaginal dryness,I mean the range of benefits is
astounding.
So you take this yogurt.
The only side effect is thatyou might have an amplification
(15:58):
of such things as depression,anxiety in the first few days
when those microbes you'verestored are busy killing
microbes and there's a surge inthat endotoxin.
Get beyond that and what kindsof other things happen.
Well, smoother skin,acceleration of healing.
Older guys get a 50% rise intestosterone.
(16:20):
Older ladies have restorationWhoa, whoa whoa whoa.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
Are you saying that at least partly to blame for
decreasing testosterone in oldermen is endotoxemia?
Speaker 2 (16:38):
The mechanism is not quite clear.
It's probably a combination ofinducing endotoxemia and the
boost in oxytocin.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
Okay but you see a rise as a result of it.
We don't know the mechanism ofof why it works, but we do see a
connection, okay didn't mean tointerrupt you there but that
was personally interesting to me.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
In mice the rise in testosterone is 300% in males,
in older males, probably overabout 50.
There's about a 50% rise, notas spectacular as in mice, as is
often true right when wetranslate things to humans, but
a 50% rise.
So a guy who starts with, say,350 can easily get to 500.
(17:23):
So a much, much more healthyrise and doesn't have just
implications for sexual health,it also has implications for
mood.
One of the most common symptomsof low testosterone is
depression and a feeling ofpowerlessness.
And having a rise intestosterone, yeah, yeah, so you
get maybe better erections andmore sexual drive, but the real
(17:43):
effect is lifting of mood and afeeling that you're back in
control of your life.
So so that's part of the effectof doing this specifically,
specifically restoringlactobacillus roteri.
There's also an amplificationof the immune response.
Ladies get a return of vaginalmoisture and libido, there's
preservation of bone density.
There's all the effects ofoxytocin and intensification of
(18:08):
the feelings of love and empathyfor other people, increased
feelings of generosity and, myfavorite, the increased
acceptance of other people'sopinions.
Think about that, jackie.
So we're talking about arestoration of a lost microbe
that was responsible forprovoking oxytocin, the hormonal
glove and empathy, at a timewhen almost everybody's lost
(18:30):
this microbe and there'srecord-setting social isolation,
suicide and the rise ofnarcissistic behavior.
That's a fact.
By the way, the psychologicalcommunity has been tabulating
formally measures ofnarcissistic behavior since 1963
.
And the curve is a sharp 45degree incline since 1963.
(18:53):
And so do we now have a way notonly to turn back SIBO and
thereby have powerfulconsequences for reducing
numerous diseases, or at leastreducing their, their severity?
We may also have a way torestore social connectedness and
sociability and politicalbehavior like behavior, wow part
(19:17):
of the reason we've got a sickculture is because we have sick
people.
You know, humans have been badto humans all throughout human
history.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
It's not news.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
But has it gotten worse?
I think it has.
Not the level of tyrants ordictators, but at the street
level.
People are worse to each other,and I think we've stumbled on a
way to restore better behaviorto humans, as well as turn back
the clock 10 or 20 years.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Well, nobody doesn't want to feel better, so that I
love that.
That makes a lot of sense.
This is one of those that Iwould love to just talk and talk
and talk, but we try to keepthis tight.
Let's go to question numberseven.
What's one of the more commoncompliments that you get in your
(20:06):
work?
Speaker 2 (20:09):
I think it's that I say things because I believe
them.
I don't say them.
People say, oh, you're sayingthat to get attention.
What Really?
No, no, in fact.
You know I was on Dr Oz fourtimes and every time I was in
the prep area I'm thinking tomyself I'd rather be walking my
dog.
I don't really care for thepublic attention.
(20:31):
But you know what?
There's so much wrong, jack,there is so, and you know this.
Dr Phil Wavadi knows this.
Dr Phil Wavadi knows this.
There's so much wrong withmodern, especially American,
healthcare because of the profitmotive.
There's so much bad in modernhealthcare that it takes people
like you and me and Dr Phil tohelp fix this.
To tell people what your doctoris telling you is flat bullshit
(20:54):
, it's nonsense.
You do not need a GLP-1 agonistto lose weight.
It destroys your health.
You don't need a biologic toreduce the pain of rheumatoid
arthritis or psoriatic arthritis.
You don't need diabetes drugsto reduce your blood sugar.
It's a simple formula ofrestoring things the way they
used to be, and all theseconditions not all, but most
(21:17):
conditions, most modernconditions we're familiar with
go away.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
Okay.
Well, let's go the otherdirection.
What's one of the more commoncomplaints that you get in your
practice?
Speaker 2 (21:29):
I think it's a little bit too complicated, especially
since I added the microbiomecomponents.
But you know we've screwed upour microbiomes dramatically for
a variety of reasons, at least,at the very least overexposure
to antibiotics, but there'sprobably many other factors like
the ones I listed earlier.
Overexposure antibiotics, butthere's probably many other
factors like the ones I listedearlier.
So rebuilding it is not justtake a pill, it's certainly not.
(21:53):
And of course my colleagues saystupid things like oh,
probiotics don't work, or take aprobiotic.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
What is that?
I'm just going toparenthetically insert here.
If antibiotics do work, thenit's.
If antibiotics do work, thenit's illogical to say that
probiotics don't.
That just makes no sense.
And if you say probiotics don'twork, then neither do
antibiotics.
That's just okay.
(22:18):
Sorry, I'm supposed to be theinterviewer here rather than the
expert but that's one of thosethings that just drives.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Of course they work.
Now we do need better sciencebehind probiotics.
So the majority of currentprobiotics Sorry, I don't know
what this is about the currentcrop of this is not live so.
(22:52):
We do a whole editing.
Commercial probiotics arecrafted haphazardly, so whoever
formulated a product sayssomething like this oh, there's
some science to tell us thatbifidobacterium longum is good
for people.
Let's throw that in.
Oh, here's some observationthat tells us that lactobacillus
brevis is good for people.
Let's throw that in too.
And how about lactobacillusacidophilus?
(23:14):
They're haphazard collectionsand often at low numbers because
it's very costly.
I talk to manufacturers andI'll say, for instance, hey, I'd
like some of your strain oflactobacillus crispatus because
it's incredibly effective forvaginal health and females
reproductive age and onwards.
And they say well, you can haveit for $1,500 a kilo and our
(23:39):
minimum order is a hundred is ahundred kilos.
So very, very few retailers canafford to do that, and so what
they do is they put teensyquantities in the probiotic.
So that's why one of thereasons why this idea of yogurt
it's not yogurt, right, it looksand smells like yogurt, but
that's why the yogurt has suchpowerful effects because we're
(24:00):
increasing the counts, typicallya thousand fold.
We perform something calledflow cytometry.
It's a laser assisted means ofcounting microbes and we get
around 300 billion.
Billion would be per half cupserving.
So when you buy a probiotic,it's typical to have a billion
or maybe even 10 billion.
We're going to increase itdramatically because the larger
(24:24):
the numbers you have, the morelikely you're likely to have a
very beneficial effect.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Okay, I know people are listening to this, thinking
no wait, I can make this yogurtmyself.
So I want to speak to ourlisteners real quick.
All the contact information forDr Davis will be available in
the show notes.
Check there.
And let's move now to myfavorite question in this show.
(24:51):
If you could deliver just onemessage about health and you
only had eight words to deliverit, what would those eight words
be?
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Oh boy, I still think , even though you and I have
been talking about microbes, thepower of restoring lost
microbes, the diet you follow isstill by far an overwhelmingly
powerful thing.
And, ironically, the dietadvocated by most agencies, that
is, cut your fat andcholesterol, eat more healthy
whole grains, causes hundreds ofhealth conditions, including
(25:24):
coronary disease, hundreds ofhealth conditions, including
coronary disease.
So not cutting your fat andcholesterol, never eating
healthy whole grains, is stillhugely powerful.
Now you can go further, ofcourse, including restoring lost
microbes, but the diet stillmatters.
And, by the way, when you dothings like restore
lactobacillus roteri oreradicate SIBO, do all those
(25:45):
things, get our fermented juices, do all those things in the
context of a better diet.
Never cut fat, never cutcholesterol, never limit
calories, never eat whole grainsor grains in any form.
Don't eat sugar, eat real food.
People say, oh, what's left?
It's evidence of just howbrainwashed people have been.
(26:08):
Eat meat, eat the fat, eat someliver, eat vegetables, eat root
vegetables, eat avocados, useolive, real foods, just like
great grandma did.
If you're, if you're toughenough, add back some tripe, add
back some tongue, all thethings that provided, for
instance, collagen, hyaluronicacid.
So the diet still matters a lotand your.
(26:30):
The benefits of adding allthose other things on will be
even greater that was way morethan eight words.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
So I I'm trying to think, because what I like to, I
want to use those eight wordsas a, as a, a, a title for the
show.
Diet stills still matters,that'd be three.
Never cut fat, that's six.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
How about no grains, no sugar?
Speaker 1 (27:04):
no grains, comma sugar.
We'll work it out.
We'll make it work.
Dr William Davis, the uh, the.
Your most recent book is supergut.
Most recent book is super gut.
I can personally attest.
Uh, the yogurt aside from thefact that I just like knowing
what's in my yogurt is deliciousand I'm going to we're going to
(27:27):
have a PS here on this showjust because I'm personally
interested.
One of the things we've noticedwe started making the yogurt
based on your recipe a couple ofyears ago and it seems like
each you take some some yogurtfrom one batch to start the next
batch and what we've noticed isthat over time, the yogurt
(27:50):
itself gets thicker and morelike cottage cheese.
The texture changes.
Is that common?
Speaker 2 (28:00):
It is.
You know, it takes humans eonsto evolve.
It takes microbes hours to daysto evolve.
So as you cultivate thismicrobe, it probably undergoes
some changes.
Now one of the things to bearin mind is it helps if you have
some effect of the yogurt.
(28:20):
So for me, I'm a chronicinsomniac and if I get the
yogurt I'll sleep like a baby.
But if there's a change in theyogurt sorry such that my sleep
is now bad again, I'll know tostart from scratch, from the
micro, uh, from a starter again.
Oh, that's good if you can.
I personally like that.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
I like the thicker stuff and my wife doesn't, and
so we've started over a coupleof times.
All right, this has been thePredictive Health Clinic.
Dr William Davis has been ourguest.
Check the show notes for thedetails.
Thanks for joining us and wewill talk to you all next time.
Well, I'm thrilled to welcome Dr William Davis to the
Predictive Health Clinic today.
I talked to Dr Davis a coupleof years ago on Philip Ovedia's
podcast and I took someinformation away from that that
I have used ever since.
I make my own yogurt now.
Well, my wife and I make ourown yogurt.
(00:21):
So, Dr Davis, welcome.
What specific health issue doyou want to address today on the
Predictive Health Clinic?
Speaker 2 (00:46):
only an exceptional person had this, but having
rethought this and now testedhundreds, perhaps thousands of
people, it's now become clear.
I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
No problem.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
It's now become clear .
It is everywhere.
In fact, I would go so far asto say it is the biggest
epidemic.
I would go so far as to say itis the biggest epidemic, the
biggest health crisis ourspecies has ever faced.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Small intestine bacterial overgrowth SIBO.
I've heard the word before, butI'm not sure I actually knew
what it was.
Well, ordinarily at this pointI'd ask what got you interested
in this particular issue?
But I think you just stated whyyou're interested, and
ordinarily I wouldn't ask thisquestion.
(01:29):
But I think we need some help.
This is not something that'scommonly talked about.
So what are the signs andsymptoms?
Speaker 2 (01:42):
So I look for this because I was looking for any
advantage we can to furtherpeople's health and youthfulness
, and it's become clear thatdysbiosis, that is, disruptions
of the microbial populations inyour colon, that is, the
terminal four to five feet ofthe gastrointestinal tract, that
disruption of those species iseverywhere Because we've been
(02:06):
wildly overexposed toantibiotics, to other things
that disrupt microbes, likeglyphosate, the active
ingredient in Roundup herbicide,used by millions of tons
throughout the world.
Now Preservatives that haveantimicrobial properties in food
, but also in you, the bowelprep that is often used before
(02:26):
your cold.
Whoa, whoa, whoa whoa whoa.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Preservatives have antimicrobial?
Of course they do.
I hadn't even thought about thefact that when you're consuming
food that has preservatives init, you're basically shoving
antibiotics down your gut.
I hadn't even thought aboutthat.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
For instance, the potassium sorbate or sodium
benzoate or BHT, a long, longlist of effect.
They inhibit mostly molds, butthey also have broader
antimicrobial properties in thehuman GI tract.
And then people are takingstomach acid blocking drugs,
which takes away the protectionthat stomach acid provided
against oral microbes and theascent of fecal microbes.
(03:07):
Non-steroidal anti-inflammatorydrugs, chlorinated drinking
water, emulsifying agents in icecream and salad dress Jack, on
and on.
We are battered by an onslaughtof factors that have killed off
, literally killed off or atleast suppressed, hundreds of
microbes, healthy microbes inthe colon.
Well, that allowed fecalmicrobes, very tough fecal
(03:29):
microbes.
These are microbes that manypeople would recognize, like E
coli and salmonella andcampylobacter.
They recognize them becausethey're also common causes of
food poisoning.
So if you ingest, say, foodprepared by some kid at a fast
food restaurant who didn't washhis hands properly after going
number two and contaminated yourfood, those fecal microbes are
(03:51):
not well tolerated in the smallintestine when you ingest it.
Likewise, when fecal microbesascend into the small intestine,
it's not well tolerated you,but you'll experience it,
because those microbes don't letlive very.
They live for a few hours.
That's it.
So.
Trillions of microbes livingand dying rapidly in the 24 feet
of small intestine release someof their toxic components, a
(04:14):
principle among which issomething called
lipopolysaccharide, endotoxin,or we say endotoxin.
Endotoxin enters the bloodstream.
How does someone experience it?
Toxin Endotoxin enters thebloodstream.
How does someone experience it?
As depression, as anxiety, assuicidal thoughts, as dementia,
(04:36):
cognitive impairment, or asmuscle pains like fibromyalgia,
or joint pains like rheumatoidarthritis, or metabolic disease
like type 2 diabetes,hypertension, fatty liver and
heart disease, coronaryarydisease or atrial fibrillation.
So virtually all human diseaseoutside of infection,
conventional infection likepneumococcal pneumonia, uh,
outside of injury.
But all those conditions we'reall familiar with gout, calcium
(04:59):
oxalate, kidney stones, heartattack all these things have a
major role played by thegastrointestinal microbiome.
So the doctor who's whoignorantly prescribes, for
instance, lipitor to reducecholesterol, reduce
cardiovascular risk, oribuprofen or naproxen for your
(05:19):
arthritis pain, or an SSRI foryour depression?
They ignorantly ignore thedramatic contribution of the
microbiome via endotoxemia.
So hundreds of healthconditions, jack, have to be
re-examined in light of thisprocess.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Well, that's interesting, because the
question that comes next iswhat's the biggest popular
misconception about this issue?
And it sounds like the answeris an awful lot of diverse
diseases and health dysfunctionsthat we attribute to unique
causes share at least a commonfactor in this endotoxemia.
(06:01):
Is that fair to summarize it?
Endotoxemia Is that fair tosummarize it?
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Absolutely right.
The turning point for me, jack,was the invention of this
device called the AIR deviceA-I-R-E.
This is the original from a fewyears ago.
This is the more recent one.
It's now black A-I-R-E,invented by an Irish PhD
engineer who wanted to assessgas production in the breath.
(06:25):
Because we've known even beforethe invention of the air device
that when you have microbes inyour GI tract, they produce
hydrogen gas.
We don't Humans don't producehydrogen gas.
We produce other gases.
We don't produce hydrogen gas,microbes do.
And these devices can be used asa mapping device to tell you
where microbes are living.
You're supposed to havemicrobes in the colon producing
(06:46):
hydrogen gas, but you don't.
You should not have them in thesmall intestine, in the
esophagus, stomach, duodenum,jejunum, ileum, and you can use
this device to map wheremicrobes are.
So I started doing this inhundreds, now thousands, of
people and to my great surprise,it was the rare person who
tested negative.
Now you might say, well, maybethe device, maybe the concept is
(07:06):
flawed, but we'd have anabnormal reading.
It's a 0 to 10 reading.
Talk to your smartphone.
Someone would have an abnormalreading.
Take steps to normalize thesituation, push back fecal
microbes in the small intestine.
And then good things happen.
Their weight loss plateaufinally broke, their hemoglobin
A1C finally dropped to below 5%,their arthritis pain finally
(07:27):
disappeared completely, theirskin rashes went away, their
depression lifted.
In other words, we saw dramatichealth benefits by pushing back
the presence of fecal microbesin the small intestine.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Okay.
Would it be fair to postulatethat if you're dealing with a
stubborn health issue, considerthe possibility that endotoxemia
yes, that's correct,endotoxemia, toxicity that
originates inside yourself is atleast playing a part in the in
(08:04):
the whatever ill health you'reexperiencing?
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Absolutely.
Now here's the problem.
What if I said, jack, thesolution for your SIBO and
endotoxin is to remove yoursmall intestine surgically?
You'd say, well, hit the roadbus.
That's stupid.
You better be damn confidentthat this is necessary.
But what if the solution issomething that looks and smells
like yogurt?
So I invented a formulationthat I call SIBO yogurt, and
(08:33):
it's just three microbes it'slactobacillus roteri that you're
familiar with, it'slactobacillus gasseri and
bacillus coagulans.
I chose those three microbes fortwo reasons.
One, they colonize the smallintestine where SIBO occurs and
they produce bacteriocins,natural antibiotics that kill
(08:56):
fecal microbes.
So so far, of the 50 peoplewho've done this, 90% have
normalized their H2 breathtesting.
Now you don't need that device.
The device is great, it's veryclever and it can be very
helpful, but you don't need thedevice to prove it.
If you have, for instance, foodintolerances, an extremely
common expression of SIBO or ifyou have conditions that are
(09:20):
virtually synonymous with SIBOirritable bowel syndrome,
fibromyalgia, sleep apnea,restless leg syndrome, obesity,
type 2 diabetes, aneurodegenerative disorder, an
autoimmune condition you can beassured you have SIBO or, at the
very least, colonic dysbiosisbased colonic dysbiosis.
(09:47):
We reintroduced these threemicrobes lost by nearly
everybody and so far it hasexceeded far beyond my
expectation.
I I formulated that combinationin the hopes that people
experience some reduction inbloating and diarrhea.
No, it got rid of sebo.
Now we'll do a formal clinicaltrial to prove it.
I'm trying to develop thefunding.
That's the problem.
Outside of pharma.
You know farmers loaded withbillions and billions of dollars
to fund their BS research.
(10:09):
We don't, right.
We don't have billions.
I have hundreds of thousands ofdollars.
I blew my last $150,000 on asmall mouse trial, a human
clinical trial.
We're accumulating our fundingand we will do a clinical trial
to prove this.
This works, but I can tell youit's.
If the solution check issomething that looks and smells
(10:30):
like yogurt that you make inyour kitchen, what's the problem
, right?
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Okay, I love the way, I love how you're communicating
here, because you'reanticipating most of the
questions that I'm going to askbefore I get there.
One of the questions that Ithink the next question is
what's the likely outcome ifpeople don't take action?
And I think you've laid thatout pretty clearly, that out
(11:04):
pretty clearly, and then solet's go ahead and go.
What specific actions shouldpeople take if they recognize
themselves here?
Sounds like it might be theyogurt, but you probably should
go into more detail.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Yeah, the yogurt is very helpful, very effective,
far beyond my expectations.
But there's other things peopleshould do.
So, jack, I liken an effort tocultivate a healthy
gastrointestinal microbiome tohaving a backyard vegetable
garden.
So let's say it's springtime,you lay out a 10 by 10 plot, you
pick out the twigs and thestones, you then plant seeds and
(11:37):
then you water and fertilize it.
Well, the gastrointestinalmicrobiome is very similar.
So you prepare the soil bygetting rid of things that
disrupt it.
So there's no deer or stoneshere, but there's things like
chlorinated drinking water,stomach acid, blocking drugs,
antibiotic exposure.
Take antibiotics if you must,but only an absolute minimum
when it's truly, truly necessary.
(11:57):
Preservatives, as you know, inmost clang ages.
There's a whole long list ofthings you can do.
It's all in my Super Gut book.
It's all in my blog, williamDavis MD blog.
So, clean up your life, preparethe soil, plant the seeds.
The seeds, the primary seed,are fermented foods.
(12:17):
These are things like kimchiand kefir and yogurts real
yogurt, not the junk sold ingrocery stores.
Sauerkraut, veggies you fermenton your kitchen counter.
It should be easy and virtuallyfree, except for the cost of
your veggies.
Easy to do you can find basicfermentation strategies all
(12:37):
around the internet, like myfriend Donna Schwank,
s-e-h-w-e-n-k, or my websitesand books, you can find basic
ways to ferment foods.
The interesting thing aboutfermented foods, jack, is the
species of, say, sauerkraut orkimchi don't actually themselves
take up residence in the GItract.
So species like Luganostoc orPediococcus don't take up
(13:00):
residence, they just passthrough.
But in the passage through the30 feet of gastrointestinal
tract they cultivate verypowerfully healthy species that
are beneficial to you.
These are species likeFecalobacterium acromantia,
lagnospiration, many others.
So fermented foods are the wayto begin the seeding process of
your gastrointestinal tract.
Then we restore lost microbeslike the ones I mentioned
(13:22):
lactobacillus roteri,lactobacillus gastri and
bacillus coagulans.
And bacillus subtilis isanother really important one.
We restore those microbes.
You can do it as yogurt, youcan do it as a sparkling juice.
So some of these microbes likebacillus subtilis and Bacillus
(13:43):
coagulans and some otherbeneficial species like the
fungal species, saccharomycesboulardii, make delicious
sparkling juices.
So I have some mango passionfruit sparkling juice in my
kitchen.
It tastes like mango soda.
It's delicious.
So that re-implants thesebeneficial species All the
recipes, by the way, in theSuper Gut book and my blog and
then we feed them, we water andfertilize them.
(14:06):
We don't have to water them, ofcourse, but we fertilize them
with fibers.
These are fibers from plantmatter for the most part.
That is, from legumes likeblack beans, white beans,
chickpeas, hummus, onions,garlic, shallots, other root
vegetables, and you feed themand they proliferate.
So it's a very simple process.
It is outside of the mainstreamexperience because, as you know,
(14:29):
most of my colleagues arecompletely ignorant on real
issues of health, nutrition,nutritional supplements and the
microbiome.
It's wrong.
They should be experts inhealth but they're not.
They're experts in the businessof healthcare how to generate
revenue from pharmaceuticals andprocedures and they're not
experts in health.
So, sadly, and you know this,except for nice people like Dr
(14:51):
Philip Ovadia, who is an expertin health, most of our
colleagues are not.
And so the last if you went toyour doctor and said, hey, doc,
I think I have SIBO because Ihave diarrhea and bloating and
I'm intolerant to nuts andeggplant and tomatoes and eggs
and about 35 other foods thatgive me joint pains, asthma and
(15:12):
skin rashes, the doctor says, oh, it's in your head.
Or don't waste my time, or didyou consult Dr Google again,
jack?
Or some other bullshit answer.
And yet they don't even beginto address the real cause.
But the great thing about this,if the solution is so easy, so
safe.
So if someone made that SIBOyogurt, for instance, and got
(15:35):
rid of fibromyalgia, joint painor irritable bowel syndrome or
depression or anxiety orsuicidal tendencies or low
testosterone or vaginal dryness,I mean the range of benefits is
astounding.
So you take this yogurt.
The only side effect is thatyou might have an amplification
(15:58):
of such things as depression,anxiety in the first few days
when those microbes you'verestored are busy killing
microbes and there's a surge inthat endotoxin.
Get beyond that and what kindsof other things happen.
Well, smoother skin,acceleration of healing.
Older guys get a 50% rise intestosterone.
(16:20):
Older ladies have restorationWhoa, whoa whoa whoa.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
Are you saying that at least partly to blame for
decreasing testosterone in oldermen is endotoxemia?
Speaker 2 (16:38):
The mechanism is not quite clear.
It's probably a combination ofinducing endotoxemia and the
boost in oxytocin.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
Okay but you see a rise as a result of it.
We don't know the mechanism ofof why it works, but we do see a
connection, okay didn't mean tointerrupt you there but that
was personally interesting to me.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
In mice the rise in testosterone is 300% in males,
in older males, probably overabout 50.
There's about a 50% rise, notas spectacular as in mice, as is
often true right when wetranslate things to humans, but
a 50% rise.
So a guy who starts with, say,350 can easily get to 500.
(17:23):
So a much, much more healthyrise and doesn't have just
implications for sexual health,it also has implications for
mood.
One of the most common symptomsof low testosterone is
depression and a feeling ofpowerlessness.
And having a rise intestosterone, yeah, yeah, so you
get maybe better erections andmore sexual drive, but the real
(17:43):
effect is lifting of mood and afeeling that you're back in
control of your life.
So so that's part of the effectof doing this specifically,
specifically restoringlactobacillus roteri.
There's also an amplificationof the immune response.
Ladies get a return of vaginalmoisture and libido, there's
preservation of bone density.
There's all the effects ofoxytocin and intensification of
(18:08):
the feelings of love and empathyfor other people, increased
feelings of generosity and, myfavorite, the increased
acceptance of other people'sopinions.
Think about that, jackie.
So we're talking about arestoration of a lost microbe
that was responsible forprovoking oxytocin, the hormonal
glove and empathy, at a timewhen almost everybody's lost
(18:30):
this microbe and there'srecord-setting social isolation,
suicide and the rise ofnarcissistic behavior.
That's a fact.
By the way, the psychologicalcommunity has been tabulating
formally measures ofnarcissistic behavior since 1963
.
And the curve is a sharp 45degree incline since 1963.
(18:53):
And so do we now have a way notonly to turn back SIBO and
thereby have powerfulconsequences for reducing
numerous diseases, or at leastreducing their, their severity?
We may also have a way torestore social connectedness and
sociability and politicalbehavior like behavior, wow part
(19:17):
of the reason we've got a sickculture is because we have sick
people.
You know, humans have been badto humans all throughout human
history.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
It's not news.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
But has it gotten worse?
I think it has.
Not the level of tyrants ordictators, but at the street
level.
People are worse to each other,and I think we've stumbled on a
way to restore better behaviorto humans, as well as turn back
the clock 10 or 20 years.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Well, nobody doesn't want to feel better, so that I
love that.
That makes a lot of sense.
This is one of those that Iwould love to just talk and talk
and talk, but we try to keepthis tight.
Let's go to question numberseven.
What's one of the more commoncompliments that you get in your
(20:06):
work?
Speaker 2 (20:09):
I think it's that I say things because I believe
them.
I don't say them.
People say, oh, you're sayingthat to get attention.
What Really?
No, no, in fact.
You know I was on Dr Oz fourtimes and every time I was in
the prep area I'm thinking tomyself I'd rather be walking my
dog.
I don't really care for thepublic attention.
(20:31):
But you know what?
There's so much wrong, jack,there is so, and you know this.
Dr Phil Wavadi knows this.
Dr Phil Wavadi knows this.
There's so much wrong withmodern, especially American,
healthcare because of the profitmotive.
There's so much bad in modernhealthcare that it takes people
like you and me and Dr Phil tohelp fix this.
To tell people what your doctoris telling you is flat bullshit
(20:54):
, it's nonsense.
You do not need a GLP-1 agonistto lose weight.
It destroys your health.
You don't need a biologic toreduce the pain of rheumatoid
arthritis or psoriatic arthritis.
You don't need diabetes drugsto reduce your blood sugar.
It's a simple formula ofrestoring things the way they
used to be, and all theseconditions not all, but most
(21:17):
conditions, most modernconditions we're familiar with
go away.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
Okay.
Well, let's go the otherdirection.
What's one of the more commoncomplaints that you get in your
practice?
Speaker 2 (21:29):
I think it's a little bit too complicated, especially
since I added the microbiomecomponents.
But you know we've screwed upour microbiomes dramatically for
a variety of reasons, at least,at the very least overexposure
to antibiotics, but there'sprobably many other factors like
the ones I listed earlier.
Overexposure antibiotics, butthere's probably many other
factors like the ones I listedearlier.
So rebuilding it is not justtake a pill, it's certainly not.
(21:53):
And of course my colleagues saystupid things like oh,
probiotics don't work, or take aprobiotic.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
What is that?
I'm just going toparenthetically insert here.
If antibiotics do work, thenit's.
If antibiotics do work, thenit's illogical to say that
probiotics don't.
That just makes no sense.
And if you say probiotics don'twork, then neither do
antibiotics.
That's just okay.
(22:18):
Sorry, I'm supposed to be theinterviewer here rather than the
expert but that's one of thosethings that just drives.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Of course they work.
Now we do need better sciencebehind probiotics.
So the majority of currentprobiotics Sorry, I don't know
what this is about the currentcrop of this is not live so.
(22:52):
We do a whole editing.
Commercial probiotics arecrafted haphazardly, so whoever
formulated a product sayssomething like this oh, there's
some science to tell us thatbifidobacterium longum is good
for people.
Let's throw that in.
Oh, here's some observationthat tells us that lactobacillus
brevis is good for people.
Let's throw that in too.
And how about lactobacillusacidophilus?
(23:14):
They're haphazard collectionsand often at low numbers because
it's very costly.
I talk to manufacturers andI'll say, for instance, hey, I'd
like some of your strain oflactobacillus crispatus because
it's incredibly effective forvaginal health and females
reproductive age and onwards.
And they say well, you can haveit for $1,500 a kilo and our
(23:39):
minimum order is a hundred is ahundred kilos.
So very, very few retailers canafford to do that, and so what
they do is they put teensyquantities in the probiotic.
So that's why one of thereasons why this idea of yogurt
it's not yogurt, right, it looksand smells like yogurt, but
that's why the yogurt has suchpowerful effects because we're
(24:00):
increasing the counts, typicallya thousand fold.
We perform something calledflow cytometry.
It's a laser assisted means ofcounting microbes and we get
around 300 billion.
Billion would be per half cupserving.
So when you buy a probiotic,it's typical to have a billion
or maybe even 10 billion.
We're going to increase itdramatically because the larger
(24:24):
the numbers you have, the morelikely you're likely to have a
very beneficial effect.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Okay, I know people are listening to this, thinking
no wait, I can make this yogurtmyself.
So I want to speak to ourlisteners real quick.
All the contact information forDr Davis will be available in
the show notes.
Check there.
And let's move now to myfavorite question in this show.
(24:51):
If you could deliver just onemessage about health and you
only had eight words to deliverit, what would those eight words
be?
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Oh boy, I still think , even though you and I have
been talking about microbes, thepower of restoring lost
microbes, the diet you follow isstill by far an overwhelmingly
powerful thing.
And, ironically, the dietadvocated by most agencies, that
is, cut your fat andcholesterol, eat more healthy
whole grains, causes hundreds ofhealth conditions, including
(25:24):
coronary disease, hundreds ofhealth conditions, including
coronary disease.
So not cutting your fat andcholesterol, never eating
healthy whole grains, is stillhugely powerful.
Now you can go further, ofcourse, including restoring lost
microbes, but the diet stillmatters.
And, by the way, when you dothings like restore
lactobacillus roteri oreradicate SIBO, do all those
(25:45):
things, get our fermented juices, do all those things in the
context of a better diet.
Never cut fat, never cutcholesterol, never limit
calories, never eat whole grainsor grains in any form.
Don't eat sugar, eat real food.
People say, oh, what's left?
It's evidence of just howbrainwashed people have been.
(26:08):
Eat meat, eat the fat, eat someliver, eat vegetables, eat root
vegetables, eat avocados, useolive, real foods, just like
great grandma did.
If you're, if you're toughenough, add back some tripe, add
back some tongue, all thethings that provided, for
instance, collagen, hyaluronicacid.
So the diet still matters a lotand your.
(26:30):
The benefits of adding allthose other things on will be
even greater that was way morethan eight words.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
So I I'm trying to think, because what I like to, I
want to use those eight wordsas a, as a, a, a title for the
show.
Diet stills still matters,that'd be three.
Never cut fat, that's six.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
How about no grains, no sugar?
Speaker 1 (27:04):
no grains, comma sugar.
We'll work it out.
We'll make it work.
Dr William Davis, the uh, the.
Your most recent book is supergut.
Most recent book is super gut.
I can personally attest.
Uh, the yogurt aside from thefact that I just like knowing
what's in my yogurt is deliciousand I'm going to we're going to
(27:27):
have a PS here on this showjust because I'm personally
interested.
One of the things we've noticedwe started making the yogurt
based on your recipe a couple ofyears ago and it seems like
each you take some some yogurtfrom one batch to start the next
batch and what we've noticed isthat over time, the yogurt
(27:50):
itself gets thicker and morelike cottage cheese.
The texture changes.
Is that common?
Speaker 2 (28:00):
It is.
You know, it takes humans eonsto evolve.
It takes microbes hours to daysto evolve.
So as you cultivate thismicrobe, it probably undergoes
some changes.
Now one of the things to bearin mind is it helps if you have
some effect of the yogurt.
(28:20):
So for me, I'm a chronicinsomniac and if I get the
yogurt I'll sleep like a baby.
But if there's a change in theyogurt sorry such that my sleep
is now bad again, I'll know tostart from scratch, from the
micro, uh, from a starter again.
Oh, that's good if you can.
I personally like that.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
I like the thicker stuff and my wife doesn't, and
so we've started over a coupleof times.
All right, this has been thePredictive Health Clinic.
Dr William Davis has been ourguest.
Check the show notes for thedetails.
Thanks for joining us and wewill talk to you all next time.
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
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