Dam Good Neighbors: Small Breaches, Stronger Bonds

Episode Transcript
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Bill (00:00):
All right, folks, here's the deal.
This episode isn't about politefence, post waves or community
potlucks.
It's about neighborliness thatdisrupts, that crosses lines,
that binds us together when thesystems around us seem hell-bent
on pulling us apart.
And here's how we do things onthis podcast Once we turn on the
microphones, we do not turnthem off until we're done.
No editing, no do-overs, justhonest, unscripted conversation

(00:21):
about faith and justice and themessy, beautiful world that we
are all trying to navigatetogether.
So today we are diving intowhat community resilience really
looks like, especially in acity like ours, a city that has
weathered floods and pandemicsand housing crises and cultural
divisions.
And, just like Jesus' parableof the Good Samaritan, we are
asking who are we willing tostop for, who counts as our own,

(00:42):
and how do we build communitieswhere no one is left behind?
This isn't about charity.
It's about solidarity, it'sabout systems and stories and
the sacred work of buildingsomething stronger together.
I'm Bill Weaver and this isPrepared to Drown.
Settle in and let's wade intothe hard and holy work of being
better neighbors.
And we are here on a beautifulFriday evening in May in the

(01:07):
basement of MacDooley UnitedChurch for our Prepare to Drown
May segment called Damn GoodNeighbors and that is not me
cursing, it is a play on words,folks.
This podcast actually cameabout in response to a question
that was asked about what doescommunity resiliency mean, and I
thought, rather than justanswer the question, I would do

(01:28):
a podcast about it.
So in one of Jesus' mostdisruptive stories in our
scriptures, he tells a storyabout a man being beaten and
robbed and left for dead and thepeople that you would expect to
help him, the people who areenshrined within kind of the
structures of the society, thereligious leaders and the moral

(01:49):
authorities.
They walk right by and leavehim beaten and bloody and
suffering in the street, butthen a Samaritan, someone from
outside the religious and ethnicin-group of the time, someone
that they actually presumed wasan enemy, stops and tends to his
wounds and offers him care andmakes some risks and takes him

(02:12):
to an inn and establishes arelationship.
And that is the backdrop storythat Jesus tells to a question
that has been asked, when he istold that he needs to, or when
he tells people they need tolove their neighbor as
themselves, and Jesus' responseis to tell this story and then
ask who was the neighbor in thisstory, the people who passed by

(02:34):
and left him or the individualwho stopped to help, and it is a
very disruptive story for hisaudience.
It's not a feel-good sloganthat he's telling them.
It's a deeply demanding anddisruptive invitation that asks
us not just to care about peoplebut to actually cross lines and

(02:54):
intervene and build bonds andbreak down barriers for folks so
that they can truly take theirplace in the communities that we
are a part of.
So we're not talking tonightabout that passive, feel-good
kind of stuff.
We're talking about breakingthrough.
We're talking about grassrootsaction.
We're talking about communityorganizing, innovation, social

(03:19):
entrepreneurship, we're talkingabout youth programming and
advocacy and coalition buildingand public witness and all those
things, and it's a lot to coverin our time here.
But around this table tonightwe have the people that are
doing that work, the people whoare helping to reimagine what it
means to be connected andresponsible and human to one

(03:40):
another.
And we're not here to offer aone track blueprint for how it
happens, but we're here to sharesome stories and have some
conversations.
So to that end, I'm going tostart at the far end of the
table with the familiar face onthe panel.
Ricardo De Menezes is here.
He's always insightful.
He's the director for SouthernAlberta for the UFC W40 401, a

(04:02):
tireless labor advocate, apassionate voice for justice in
the workplace and beyond.
A closet Marxist not evencloset Marxist, let's be honest
pretty overt Marxist.
And we are still angling forsome kind of sponsorship deal
with Temu because it somehowends up in every podcast.

(04:23):
He's also part of UFCW Outreach, which works to build bridges
between LGBTQ2S plus communitiesand the labor movement, and the
thing that I love the mostabout him is whether he's
organizing or negotiating orshowing up in solidarity or
coming to a podcast, he alwaysbrings a deep understanding of
how real change happens whenpeople move together.
So, Ricardo, as always, thankyou for being here.

Ricardo (04:46):
Thank you

Bill (04:47):
Next up, sitting next to Ricardo, who drove all the way
here from Edmonton to be with ustonight, folks, is someone who
actually lives and breathescommunity, often on two wheels,
and has some really cool storiesto tell you at the intermission
about some pretty crazy biketrips that she has been on in
her lifetime.
Laura Istead is here.
She's the director of Two WheelView, the executive director of

(05:11):
Two Wheel View, which is aCalgary-based non-profit that
uses bikes and bike mechanicsand bike programs to build
resiliency and leadership andconnection with youth.
I have loved Two Wheel View.
I'm a huge fan ever since.
I accidentally happened uponthem while I was escaping the
indecisiveness that washappening in Fair's Fair

(05:31):
bookstore in Inglewood and Iwalked outside and went huh, I
wonder what that Two Wheel Viewbuilding is that's attached to
it, and I have been a huge fanever since.
So she brings a ton ofexperience with nonprofit and
community sector and she'ssomeone who knows that sometimes
the path to a strongercommunity starts with something
as simple as a bike ride oraccess to a bike or a

(05:53):
conversation or just a placewhere you can actually achieve
some of your innate potential.
So, Laura, I am really glad tohave you here tonight and thank
you for being with us.

Brian (06:04):
You look fabulous for riding your bike all the way
from Edmonton.

Laura (06:07):
You know, that's why I was a little late.
Sorry everybody.
Well done, well done you knowthat that highway is a little
breezy at times, so it takes alot of pedaling.

Bill (06:16):
Next to Laura is Brian Thiessen, a Calgary mayoral
candidate in the upcomingOctober municipal election.
With a background in law andadvocacy and public service,
brian brings a heart for civicengagement and passion for
breaking down barriers betweencitizens and systems.
I had one phone call with himand was actually really excited

(06:37):
that he was coming to join usjust off of that one phone call.
So, as someone who's put hisname forward to lead this city,
he's here not just to talk aboutpolicy although I'm sure it's
going to come up but also totalk about people and how we
build communities that actuallyhold space for everyone again to
be fully engaged and fullyintegrated into the communities

(06:58):
that we live in.
So, brian, thank you so muchfor being at our table tonight.

Brian (07:02):
Thank you so much for having me.

Bill (07:04):
And then, lastly, we have Aurelio Jun".
He goes by Nareval and he isthe Director of Programs and
Public Policy at Action Dignity.
He brings a really global lensto local advocacy because he's
been involved with epidemiology,I believe.
On the international scale he'san epidemiologist by training,

(07:25):
but here in Calgary he's leadingthe work at the intersection of
mental health and workers'rights and anti-racism and
gender equity and communitysafety.
So all of his work is centeredaround lived experience and
making sure that public systemsreflect the people that they are
meant to serve.
So, June, we are so grateful tohave your voice in the mix
tonight.

Jun (07:44):
Glad to be in this space, Thank you.

Bill (07:46):
And you know who I am.
I am Reverend Bill Weaver- justBill to the people who know me-
and we are going to jump rightinto it.
So, before we dive into sort ofthe who is my neighbor that
undergirds the Good Samaritanstory, I want to actually talk
about crisis, because in 2013,Calgary had the floods that

(08:08):
happened in the summer, and thenagain during COVID-19, we saw
clearly that not all communitiesand not all people in
communities fared equally.
Some bounced back, Others had areally hard time even finding
their footing, often because ofsystemic barriers.
And Laura, I'm actually going tostart with you for this

(08:29):
question because I have beensuch a fan of Two-Wheel View for
so long.
You have to kind of lead,because I am a fan the programs
that you offer for youth, butalso the intentionality of
breaking down barriers thathappens even around that,
including access and inclusion,but also things like the gender
equity mechanics program.

(08:50):
So I'm going to ask you tostart off this panel and then
folks can feel free to jump inafter you've had a chance to
answer.
Why do you think communityresilience is important now more
than ever, and how do programslike Two Wheel View work to
contribute to that strength?

Laura (09:07):
Yeah, that's a really, really good question.
I think, you know, communityresilience has always been
important.
I think we've always, we always, we've always gone through
things right.
Like you know, every generationand every kind of time in human
history has had things thatthey're overcoming or situations
, and I think now we have a lot,you know, in some ways a lot
more access to all theinformation to know all of the

(09:29):
things that are happening all ofthe time, which is, you know,
interesting and beautiful in itsown way, but also problematic
and challenging.
And I think, you know, I thinkit's those opportunities that we
need to kind of dig deeptogether to find ways of

(09:49):
supporting resilience in eachother.
And I think that that starts insmall, actionable ways every
day.
At Two Wheel View, we're tryingto find ways of engaging young
people.
So we work with youth that areages 12 to 24.
And we try to, you know, youngpeople.
So we work with youth that areages 12 to 24.
And and we we try to, you know,young people are struggling
there's.
It's a different, it's adifferent kind of environment

(10:09):
than you know.
When I grew up as a kid, it wasa very analog kind of life,
which is, it's really fun to bepart of a very analog
organization in that way interms of bicycles, but you know
youth have a lot, a lot ofdifferent pressures and they're
exposed to a lot more.
You know youth have a lot ofdifferent pressures and they're
exposed to a lot more.
You know news and trauma andyou know there's this whole
online bullying situations andall these things that you know

(10:31):
and I certainly didn't grow upwith them.
Probably most of us in thisroom didn't grow up with, and so
you know what we're trying todo is, through the medium of
bicycles, is really help youngpeople find out who they are and
find out, find with people thatthey, they get a lot and you
know that they can find.
You know commonalities with and, and a lot of youth feel very
isolated and and they don't feellike they belong.

(10:54):
They feel alone most of thetime, and I think one of the
things that really contributesto community resilience is the
community part of the communityresilience phrase, and being
able to find people that you cantalk to when you're feeling sad
and find people that you knowalso help you celebrate things,
and so we run a number ofdifferent programs.
Our biggest and probably ourmost well-known program in the

(11:16):
community is our earn a bikeprogram.
So we run afterschoolprogramming for junior, high and
high school students.
We teach them basic bikemechanics and through those
kinds of things and using yourhands to do something there's
something magical about that too, where they get to use their
hands and they get a chance tolearn that they're capable.
A lot of our young people don'tfeel very capable right now,

(11:37):
and so we get to teach them.
You know they can understandthe difference between a
screwdriver and a wrench, andthen they know applications, how
to use it.
And it's more than just bicyclesFor us.
It's not just about the bicycle, it is about those skills that
they can transfer to otherenvironments.
They can learn, you know, ifyou can't figure out your
derailleur on your bicycle,which is a pretty common

(11:57):
frustration for most people thatown a bicycle, you know that
you're learning perseverancethrough those kinds of actions.
And so at the end of ourprogram, at the end of 10 weeks,
they earn a bicycle lock,helmet, toolkit and some other
resources that help themnavigate around the city of
Calgary.

(12:19):
And we work with about 350 youngpeople a year in that program
across the city and our kind oftwo main qualifications for
youth to participate in thatprogram is they wouldn't
otherwise get the opportunityand they could really benefit
from this kind of experience,and so that looks like many
different stories, and I thinkit's also, you know, communities
resilience is important becauseit's also about being in rooms
with people that you're notnormally in rooms with, and so

(12:40):
our youth are, you know, gettingconnected with other.
A lot of them are newcomers, butyou know we also.
You know we also have a lot ofyou know, canada born kids too,
but we have, you know, youngpeople are getting a chance to
connect over something as simpleas a bicycle with each other in
our programs, and they'regetting to sit in rooms and get
to know folks in a different waythat they might not have

(13:00):
otherwise crossed paths with,and I think that's a huge piece
of being a resilient communityand I think it's yeah, I think
we need it now more than ever onthat individual,
person-to-person level.

Brian (13:16):
Okay, I'll jump in.

Bill (13:19):
You don't need to be polite on this panel.
Okay great, just jump right in.
Yeah.

Brian (13:22):
You know I spend a lot of time thinking about I'm an
employment lawyer by training.
Know I spent a lot of timethinking about I'm an employment
lawyer by training and I spenta lot of time working with
organizations trying to strugglethrough COVID.
So kind of resonates to me thechallenge of that and I thought
a lot about.
You know people, you know a lotof people came together on
vaccinations and looking out forone another and doing their

(13:44):
part and it felt like people gota little exhausted of that at
the end and almost lost themessage or the parable of the
Good Samaritan.
And so when I look at thecrises or the issues that are
facing Calgary right now as weform policy to, we formed a
political party called theCalgary Party and you know we

(14:08):
were looking at how we can helpCalgary and you know a couple
issues that were really focused.
One is public safety andanother is housing.
And on the public safety front,you know I spent time.
I spent four years as chair ofthe police commission and I did
a lot of walk and ride alongsand saw a lot of people
suffering from mental health andaddiction issues and it really

(14:32):
boils down to a lot of thembeing houseless or homeless and
housing is an essential humanneed and people who don't have a
shelter struggle to addresstheir mental health or those
other issues that they're reallystruggling with.
So we have a real focus on thehuman as part of our policy on

(14:55):
public safety.
So it's not about policing andwhen I spoke with police about
the issue, they're the first,they're the first ones to say
you can't police your way out ofthis issue.
You need mental health andaddiction specialists to
interact with people.
They should be housed withpolice officers and you know
Alpha House has a lot of successwith mental health and

(15:19):
addiction specialists workingwith police and transit police
interacting with those sufferingfrom mental health and
addiction issues.
But you know the Housing Firststrategy that Helsinki performed
.
It's a really good example offocusing on getting people
sheltered.
You get better success rateswith treating people who suffer

(15:39):
from addiction and the nicething about the Helsinki model
is they track the costs of itand they found that.
You know I always say do itbecause it's the right thing to
do.
I mean, if you can't do it,because it helps you.
And what Helsinki did which wasreally helpful, is they track
the costs and they didn't trackthe cost to the justice system,
but they did track the cost tothe health system and it was

(16:01):
about 35,000 euros per personper year.
We figure it's about 100,000per person per year that we save
if we house people first and soif we think of them as our
neighbors and people who aredesperately in need, and we
approach it from how to housethem and treat them, we are a
long way to solving the problem,in my opinion, and I think that

(16:24):
about housing across thespectrum More generally,
everyone's looking to you knowpeople struggle with concepts
like open zoning and buildingmore density in their
neighborhoods and to bring ithome to them I say you know,
think about you.
Know, my father-in-law is 93.

(16:46):
He just finally moved into LakeBonav ista Village.
60 years in his two-story househe was on his own.
We just moved him in there andhe's with his neighbors, people
that he spent the last 60 yearswith.
He gets picked up by his wineclub to go out on Wednesdays and
he's still got that community.
And people don't think aboutthat when they talk about

(17:09):
housing density.
But we're talking about a placewhere your parents can age in
place, where your kids can comehome from university or graduate
high school and can live andwork, and so if you think about
the community you're buildingand the actual issues you're
trying to solve in society ashuman problems, as your
neighbors, it makes it a loteasier to draft really good

(17:32):
policy.

Jun (17:34):
Truly, and I really appreciate Brian introducing the
term policy because I thoughtthat this would provide
long-term solutions to theproblems that we are seeing.
But I'm going to backtrack abit but just to really
appreciate the framing of Billaround this discussion.

(17:56):
Starting off with a goodSamaritan, I thought that that's
really very, as you've said,disruptive in many ways and we
look at and ask ourselves whoour neighbors are and sometimes
we can be so very physical thatthe neighbor would be just next
to us.
But I'm also like, coming fromthe frame that a neighbor is,

(18:20):
anyone who would be in need, isanyone who would be in need and
maybe translate that to thepeople that I've been like
working for most of from thelast five years would be the
ethno-cultural communities.
Again, you mentioned as wellabout the crisis in 2013 and

(18:45):
then the COVID-19.
And on top of that that wasalso around the COVID-19 was
also the hail that affected thenorth.
Is that was also like that's myneighborhood, where some people
are still actually waiting toget the the hail damage repaired
exactly, and you can you canyou can still see houses where
their windows are still brokenand not been replaced, and that

(19:08):
really is very telling of thestatus and how marginalized
these communities could be,although there are a lot of
assets there.
Then I would like to move tosay that when we talk about
crisis, we see that we alltogether are in the same storm

(19:35):
the COVID-19 epidemic, which isa storm.
The hail is a storm.
The housing issue is a storm.
Calgary had.
The housing issue is a storm,but I'm also looking at it that
some of us, all of us are insomehow some forms of boats, you
know, in that storm, but someof these boats are actually

(20:00):
built to survive.
Some of the boats that you areriding are built that you are
protected, but from my lens, I'malso seeing a lot of boats that
can hardly reach the coast,that can hardly can survive the
huge waves, and I'm looking atthis as the you know.

(20:24):
What then, should we do?
The only way I'm seeing thisfrom the lens of the good
Samaritan is that, if we have togo into a long-term solutions,
should we support people?
I thought that the people whoare in boats that are very

(20:45):
vulnerable are the ones that weneed to lift up, because when we
lift those at the margins, weare lifting everyone.
So that's just a point of youknow, like a reflection on how I
see all these crises happening.
And there are several barriers.

(21:07):
We need to look at barrierswhen we look into ethnocultural
communities, for example, orthose that are experiencing
homelessness.
So we look at barriers and whatare those barriers?
And the barriers could bebecause of their religion and
the barriers could be because oftheir religion, or barriers

(21:27):
could be because of their coloror barriers could be because of
their economic status.
So these or some of thesebarriers can actually intersect.
You know, like a woman Onewould have disability, who would
be probably having a religion,a minority religion, or probably

(21:52):
would be a black or a person ofcolor.
So when those are actuallyintersecting, it compound the
issue in such a way that theywould be in a different
situation.
Yep, you know far more than therest, absolutely, exponentially
, exactly.

Bill (22:14):
So, like, right off the hop, just to pick up on some
threads and I should say to ourguests that one of my unofficial
roles on this panel is to alsobe kind of the downer Not that I
choose it, it just seems tohappen.
So, like, talking about agingin place, right, this idea of
like, if we could actually frameour thinking around how it is

(22:36):
that we build communities thatcan sustain like
multi-generational kind ofliving.
My primary role in this churchis pastoral care and I can tell
you, if it's an allusion toanybody, the longer people can
age well in place, the longerthey can live lives with quality

(22:59):
to them.
Right, I will go to the wallanywhere saying that my
experience, 100% of the time, isthat when you reach an age
where you cannot continue tolive in your home and the only
option is to not only bedisplaced from this house that
you've lived in for decades, butalso to be displaced to another

(23:19):
corner of the city wherethere's room for you, you lose
not just everything that isfamiliar, you lose your entire
network of support, right, and Iwould say 95% of the time,
because I can think of oneperson that endured it.
Well, 99% of the time you seethe impact that has on your

(23:42):
quality of life and yourlivability really right To be
separated from not just yourfamiliar surroundings but your
community of support, yournetworks, like your
relationships, and it's therelationships that matter the
most, which is what I see everytime.
I'm at two-wheel view, which iswhy I love the model so much,

(24:06):
because it's the relationalityunder all of it that really
matters.
Right, and so where I'm goingwith the downer side of this is
I was involved in a project thatwas designed to really invite
sort of a redensification in acommunity and to target the

(24:28):
housing affordability issue in areally meaningful, manageable
way, and the resistance to itwas so profound right, and is
always so profound how quicklythis idea of this community that
we love, these relationshipsthat we've built over decades,
are only for us and do not makeany room for any more to come in

(24:54):
.
But, intriguingly enough, whereit really hit home was standing
outside the church and I'mtalking like full-on collared up
in the clergy attire, smoking acigarette at the time it
doesn't happen anymore andsomebody happened to walk by and

(25:14):
say are you the minister ofthis church?
And I said, well, yes, yes, Iam, and this project was
underway and they said we hearthat you're planning on building
affordable housing here.
And I said, well, yes,absolutely.
And they said but there's aplayground right across the
street.
And I said, okay, what betterplace to build affordable
housing, especially because it'sfamily housing?
And they said, but where are mykids going to play?
And I said why wouldn't theystill play at this playground?

(25:38):
And, spoiler alert, you're notgoing to like what the response
was because they shot back withbuilding off of what you've been
saying.
There's no way my kids aregoing to play with all those
black kids as the response toaffordable housing.
So the layers of racism eventhat undergird some of these

(26:00):
barriers to people being able tojust have a roof over their
heads, I mean it's staggering.
And again, to be a senior or avulnerable population, like a
young person, and carry any ofthese other things that
exponentially impact yourability to really feel like you

(26:20):
belong and are supportedrelationally by your community,
it's substantial and I think insome cases, we think we're
better off and more enlightenedand progress is always progress,
but there's an illusion if wethink that these things don't
still happen right here, rightnow, in the city of Calgary, in

(26:44):
2025.

Ricardo (26:45):
It's interesting you should say that Bill and you
brought up the COVID-19 pandemicand, in my role as a union
activist, ufcw, local 401,.
We represent grocery stores,meatpacking plans, warehousing,
which everyone in this room willultimately remember being the
heroes of the day during thepandemic.
In fact, employers were givingeverybody $2 an hour more and

(27:07):
$50 a week more and everybodypraised grocery store employees
for going to work every dayduring the pandemic and helping
us feed our families.
And the shock that came fromthat was that it was an
invisible enemy that everybodyhad to deal with.
It affected everybody, nomatter what socioeconomic status
you came from.
The ability and your ability tocontract COVID-19 was there.

(27:32):
I mean, it was more so in ameatpacking plant or a grocery
store because you know ourmembers were in contact with so
many different people.
The interesting part and Iwouldn't say the tragic part of
the whole pandemic was that whenthings, vaccinations started
coming through and people were,the restrictions started to
loosen, all of a sudden themoney was gone for pandemic pay.

(27:53):
In fact, it wasn't even justlike a slow dissipation.
Within a 36-hour period, everygrocery chain, competitive or
not, as soon as the first oneannounced it, in 36 hours every
single grocery company took awaythe pandemic pay.
Every single one.

Laura (28:10):
Right.

Ricardo (28:11):
So if that's not calculated, I don't know what
would be.
Aside that, what's happened,though, is that we've gone to
recognizing our enemies, againin a multiplied form.
So I've gone from, innegotiations for food service
workers and retail workers,safety, health and safety, and

(28:34):
plexiglass barriers and allthose kind of things to please
create a policy and a procedurefor rude, abusive and
inappropriate customers.
So what is our view ofneighbors?
Is it, like June said, theperson who lives next to us our
aunts and our uncles or is itthe person that just scans our
groceries and helps us feed ourfamilies?

(28:55):
Still, we've lost thatperspective right now, and
that's part of also the problemthat we have, and maybe you guys
have watched the news, haveseen the grocery store
commercials that our union hasput out against a certain
employer, but they have.
And maybe you guys have watchedthe news, have seen the grocery
store commercials that ourunion has put out against a
certain employer, but they talkabout oh good, thank you, that's
not just something we've madeup.
Grocery store employees some ofthem can't afford to shop where

(29:17):
they work and to go into workand to struggle to earn in in a
city where rents are going up,utilities are going up, the cost
of insurance is going up, uh,and then suffer abuse from the
people that you're alreadyfacing of depression for not
being able to feed your families, and and and and so, um, what

(29:39):
we need to create in as aframework in society where we
recognize not just the neighborswho share the same postal code
as ourselves, but recognize theneighbors and and, and recognize
, um, what everybody does andthe interconnectivity, the

(30:04):
intersectionality that we allshare, and face right that the
people that are working in thestores, buying your groceries,
sitting on the bus while you'resitting in your car.
We all share the samechallenges.
We all pay the same price forthe eggs.
I love that the eggs thing isthe big thing in the US right
now right.

(30:24):
So, and that was something thatwe see, but when it comes to
neighbors, it's basically andwhy I bring this particular
situation up is you also wroteabout the floods and when
Calgary was flooded, there wasno human being in the city that
wasn't ready and willing todrive to High River and help
them rebuild.
They had to stop people fromvolunteering like we have enough

(30:47):
people shoveling sandbags andstuff, right, like we know in
our basic instinct what we needto do for humanity.
Yeah, right, how to help eachother.

Bill (30:56):
But intriguingly enough, like I like again, like I think
brian like hit the nail on thehead, there was, there was a
time when that was, you know,like everybody would, would, do
anything they possibly could,and then the fatigue set in so
huge, right, like I said on apodcast, I think back in
december, I can remember in inthe pandemic, there was a little
old lady who stood on thecorner in bridgeland every

(31:17):
single morning and as you weredriving by, she would give you a
hug, right like an air hug, andand like, uh, there were news
stories about her.
She was a community hero, likeand then, but then at some point
in time, again like, we justflicked a switch and people
started making bylaw complaintsabout being a distraction to
drivers and we got back into thewhole kind of messiness of like

(31:40):
, no, no, we, we can't sustainthis level of like community
love, uh love for any length oftime.
Right, and I even remember inthe floods, because I was in
Halifax when the floods werehappening here at seminary and I
actually was riveted.
I don't remember much from thecourses I was taking at the time
because I was so stuck on theTV screen and trying to figure

(32:03):
out, because we lived inBridgeland and the water was
overflowing the banks and itactually came into our backyard
and then stopped and neveractually got to our house.
But my wife had an infant athome and I was doing the whole
like do I have to get on a planetomorrow?
Because she was stubbornlyrefusing to leave, even though
my parents were more thanwilling to shack everybody up,

(32:24):
even though my parents were morethan willing to shack everybody
up.
And so I remember a tweet backwhen it was Twitter and back
when it was safe to tweet, goingthrough to Nahed Nenshi at the
time as the mayor of Calgary,where somebody said what are we
supposed to do if you're forcingus to evacuate our communities
in the face of this flood?
What are we supposed to doabout the homeless?

(32:45):
Forcing us to evacuate ourcommunities in the face of this
flood?
What are we supposed to doabout the homeless people that
are still walking around in thecommunity as this sort of
suspicious they're going tobreak into our homes and steal
our stuff kind of message?
And Nenshi's response is well,they might like a sandwich.
They might like a sandwich.

(33:06):
And I thought like, on the onehand, there's somebody out there
who wrote that original tweet,you know, uttering a string of
expletives against you know,Nenshi, for writing this, but
the response to that tweet waslike it was a real kind of wake
up call to folks like this is ahuman problem we're dealing with
right now.
Right, this is not about, again, not about policing, not about
crime mitigation.
This is like people are losingtheir homes, people who are

(33:30):
already homeless, like theentire DI area was a part of the
affected drop-in center.
Sorry, di drop-in center areawas part of the affected flood
zone at the time, and so, like,we have these opportunities to
really call forth the best inour humanity, but I will
problematize our ability tosustain it beyond the crisis.

(33:52):
Right, it's almost like we needa crisis to remind us of our
collective humanity, but I don'tknow.
We're supposed to be betterthan this, right.

Brian (34:02):
I spent when I was.
I did a business degree andbetween business and law school,
I got this job as a 21 year old.
It was very humbling experience.
I worked at the Center forNewcomers and I was supposed to
teach recent immigrants toCanada a business course on how
to start your own business, andthey would get preferred loans

(34:25):
from HSBC.
And so I went in with, you know, my camp, council experience,
job experience and my businessdegree to teach, and I had a
room full of newcomers and so Ithought I'll do what I did at
summer camp I will go around theroom and I'll ask everyone.
You know where are they fromand what's their experience, and
I'm not exaggerating.

(34:46):
The first person that introducedthemselves was the former head
of surgery at the hospital inMumbai and it went on from there
and you can imagine 21 year oldlike shrinking in their seat,
thinking how unqualified you are.
But I thought about it a lotafterwards, about these
newcomers and what they'dsacrificed to come to Canada and

(35:07):
what they had brought to Canada.
And then it dawned on me thatthat was my grandparents.
You know.
They came as Mennonite refugeesfrom Ukraine and they
sacrificed everything and theytook new jobs and and we're all
kind of guests here in thisconfluence, this place where

(35:27):
people gather and come togetherand build lives together, and it
helped me to make thatconnection and to realize that
we're all, we've all been guestsat a time and we've all you
know our parents, or a lot ofnewcomers right now, are
sacrificing, have way moreskills than they're allowed to

(35:47):
employ.
And if we think of it that way,then we can focus on things
like how do we get themcredentialed, how do we allow
them to practice in theirprofession?
How do we help them withhousing and become part of the
community?
It helps remind us of thehumanity and the sacrifice it
helps remind us of the humanityand the sacrifice.

Jun (36:05):
It's a good thing that you also mentioned about credential,
because if we have to look intothe housing crisis, we need to
question ourselves, to ask thequestion on why would there be a
crisis?
I don't think if it's only thelack of the physical structure,
but it is really the capacity toown a house.

(36:28):
And this is where the problembecomes more complex, because
then you have to consider aroundjob precarity, and then this
ties very well with credentialrecognition of immigrants.
Imagine that they come here onthe strength of their profession

(36:53):
and experience.
Those actually gain a lot ofpoints when they have to apply
for permanent residency orwhatever permanent residency or
whatever.
But when they reach Canada, allthose qualifications that were
the basis of their entry aresuddenly gone.

(37:14):
So their credential as a doctor, their credential as an
engineer or a nurse just doesn'tcount, even if, for example, if
you were a you know I'm amedical doctor too If you are
credentialed, that doesn't evengive you an entry.

(37:36):
And there are a lot of young youspoke about young people- and I
think, you know, laura, thereare a lot of young people too
that are, you know, just havethe education here, but they're
just coming from an ethnic groupand that really also
disqualifies them in many waysfor interview.

(37:59):
So this I would like to say thatthese are all the intersections
of the issues, so it's not justabout housing, but it's
connected to job precarity, itis connected to credential, it's
all you know, like far morecomplex and all the more it's

(38:20):
very important for us to look atthe system, because this system
that we are in actually createthose, you know, our precarity
of our existence, of ourneighbors, you know.
But at the same time we need tolook at solutions.
Are the policies that we haveactually support them in many

(38:42):
ways?
Are the practices, would youknow, like the practice of this
Good Samaritan, of making surethat it's not just checking the
box of, hey, how are you doing,how could I help you?
But really taking care of theperson and then wanting to make
sure that that person is takencare of by another when he is

(39:05):
away and when, upon his return,he would be, you know?

Bill (39:10):
He'll settle up whatever, whatever expenses.

Jun (39:12):
So that means it's not a transactional thing, but really
very transformational.

Bill (39:18):
Absolutely, and there is no guarantee of a return on
investment in the economic senseof the right.
The return is community, it'srelational, it's not financial

Laura (39:36):
You're right.
But I think you give somebody achance and the ripple effect of
that is not necessarilymeasured in a way that our
brains can wrap around.
But I think we provide youngpeople with these opportunities
in employment.
But I think, you know, weprovide young people with these
opportunities and employment andthe things that I've seen.
We, you know, recently had ayoung person that was in our

(39:56):
employment program and we wereable to offer high school
credits through the CalgaryBoard of Education for our
program and so they get somework experience credits.
So this individual we helped tograduate high school.
They might not have been ableto necessarily do that otherwise
without the support of ofourselves and discovering
choices.
High school with the CBE, um,and then you know, we we hired

(40:19):
this individual on for forpart-time work and, and, and
they work for us on the weekends, uh, working on bikes, have
amazing mechanical aptitude andexperience.
Um, we ran a.
We ran a seminar, uh, for thefor the young people to learn
more about scholarships, andbecause some of our young people
don't have that language orunderstand the potential

(40:39):
opportunities they're just youknow if that's not something
that your family you know talkedabout or, depending on your
level of access andunderstanding of those things,
you wouldn't necessarily knowthat those things exist.
And so we ran that and theywere like, oh, you mean, I could
get money to go topost-secondary school.
We're like, yeah, that could bea thing If.

Bill (40:56):
I could have been a professional student my entire
life.
I would have.

Laura (41:00):
Me too, but I think you know.
So they said oh well, you know,could I apply for some
scholarships and would you writea reference letter?
I said I would be honored towrite a reference letter for you
.
So myself and two of my, myteam, we we collaborated on a
reference letter and I'm reallyproud to say that that young
person got a hundred thousanddollars scholarship and that's

(41:20):
game changing right, like thatis game changing for that
individual, um, for the rest oftheir life and anyone else that
like comes after them, theirfamily.
The ripple effect of that ishuge and that's investing in one
person.
And we have a really incrediblecity in Calgary.
We are very, very lucky to livehere.
But you know what, what wouldhappen if we, you know, if we

(41:41):
actually tapped into thoseuntapped community assets, like
people who you know have amazingskills that they bring to the
community and we allowed them touse them.
I mean, there's many, there'smany drivers I've driven, you
know, in taxis and Ubers withpeople that have far more
education than I do and thatcould be really, you know,

(42:02):
engaging and want to and want touse those skills.
It's not for lack of want, verymuch want to share those, those
assets and those, theirknowledge and their, their
skills with our community.
And we need to find better waysof you know, and what a city we
would be if we were able to.
You know, everybody was able tobring their strengths to the
table and use them equitably,and it's not happening.

(42:27):
And we need to find ways offinding opportunities and
especially for the folks thathave had the opportunities and
those privileges is to find waysof supporting those who don't
and getting to know people'sstories and, you know, listening
to people.
I think it really comes down tojust starting to open your mind

(42:48):
and your eyes up to thelistening possibilities.
It is not just listening torespond right.
It's not just about oh, whatwell, what retort can I say next
and how can I respond to this.
It's about listening to,understand and understands
people's individual stories.
And that's when I think, whenwe all start to do that, that's
where we start to get somewhereand actually, you know, move
forward as a group.

Jun (43:08):
Yeah, I like that listening because I forward as a group.
Yeah, I like that listeningbecause I feel that it is very
important for us, whenever weare in various spaces and in
various roles that we do, to askourselves what voices are we

(43:28):
missing?
And the voices, yep, and thevoices that we are missing
almost always are the ones thatare in the margins, and I always
believe, bill, that the peoplewho are greatly impacted by the
problem are in the best positionto offer solution.

(43:51):
Yep.
And then sometimes in the bestposition to offer solution, and
then sometimes in the community,we come as experts and we tell
them what to do.
And this is where I'mconnecting with Laura around
assets, because the people,every one of us, would have
assets, either in arts orwhether that would be in writing

(44:12):
or whether that would beresources.
Your basement can be turnedinto like a meeting room or
bikes and whatever.
These are resources.
If we're able to see the assetsin the community, then I think
it will really build a betterresilience.

Laura (44:32):
People are so capable, absolutely.

Jun (44:33):
Youth better resilience.
People are so capable.
Absolutely, youth are capable.

Laura (44:35):
Seniors are capable, everyone is so capable but
sometimes you need people tohelp you see the capability and
that's what we do a lot at TwoWheel View and I think it's you
need to help people see theassets that they have within
themselves and the assets thatwe have within our community.
And then you know, it just kindof goes in bigger, bigger
circles from there in terms of,you know, trying to trying to

(44:57):
build upon those building blocksof all of those assets.
And I think there's just somuch that can be done in that
area of you know, finding,finding, you know, and I think
that's also easier way ofconnecting with people.
It's like I want to know youknow what, what you're good at
and what you love and and and.
Then that I that can connectwith me on a on a deeper human

(45:17):
level in terms of thatconnection.
And it's like, oh, you also,like you know lawn bowling in
the summer Great, we don'tnecessarily agree on all the
things, but like we have thatconnection point and then you
can start to build that list ofassets in each other and assets
in the community that people canaccess.

Ricardo (45:32):
It's also not just the systems we have in place or the
sort of the legislative policieswe have in place with respect
to barriers and people.
It's the own stereotypes thatwe carry in our brains as well,
like people who might immigratefrom an African nation.
I'll give you an example of oneof my co-workers, fiduma.
She's from Africa and she workswith us and she says Ricardo,

(45:55):
don't listen to the World Visioncommercial.
These Africans are eating.
They have food, they're eating,but all we ever see on TV is
the starving children in thefringe villages who need food.
But Africa there are very manyprosperous countries and cities
in Africa that are thriving andwealthy, but they're coming here

(46:15):
for a reason.
There are issues there thatbring people to come here, but
when they come here, like Junesaid, the qualifications and
skills that they have aren'tnecessarily recognized.
But it's not just that.
It's that people come here withthe shock of how much does it
cost to rent your house?
Right, and you know, you talkedabout the time it takes to be

(46:38):
able to purchase a home, butit's where our struggle is, even
before that, it's the amount oftime and money it takes to
afford your monthly rent everyday.
So I was reading an articlesomewhere that said the average
price rent every day.
So I was reading an articlesomewhere that said the average
price.
The average time it used to taketo purchase your first home
from 1977 to 1990 was about twoto three years, based on the

(47:00):
incomes of couples at the time.
Now, in 2025, it's between 13and 17 years to be able to
afford, and it's even higher onthat sex spectrum in places like
British Columbia and Torontoand sometimes in Montreal and
Quebec too.
And so, if you think about that, if you're a happily married
couple, for example, and you getmarried relatively young, which

(47:21):
is another trend in today'ssociety, people are getting
married or even cohabitatingmuch later in life.
You're not buying your firsthouse till you're 40.
Much later in life, you're notbuying your first house until
you're 40.
And with 30-year amortizations,you're into your retirement and
still mortgaged.
Yeah, I will preach.

Jun (47:40):
Yeah right.

Ricardo (47:46):
So that opens a whole bunch of questions.
Well, why don't people go toschool and improve their skills
and get higher-paying jobs?
Well, that doesn't exist a loteither.
So in 2015, I had the privilegeof going on the Governor
General's leadership tour and wetoured southwestern Ontario and
we went to London and I had theopportunity to have lunch with
our group not me individuallywith the former CEO of

(48:06):
Blackberry.
I forget his name.
He had a movie made about him,basili.
Sorry, basili, that's the oneYou're going to have to say it
again.
Nobody heard that, basili.

Laura (48:16):
Basili, yeah.

Ricardo (48:18):
Peter, yeah, and he was commending the business people
in our tour group and in someways the policy analysts and
people who worked in government,but the labor people, those
three union people there.
He didn't have very much timefor us and I just asked him the
question.
I said the Haskane School ofBusiness in Calgary is probably
one of the most prominentbusiness programs.

(48:39):
But at what point in time dothe funders and the people who
push students to go to theHaskane School of Business, at
what point in time do we say tothem okay, so give them jobs
Right.

Laura (48:50):
At what point in time do we say to them okay?

Ricardo (48:51):
so give them jobs right .
I look at a lot of because wewere searching for people at
work too.
We had a labor.
We needed to hire union reps,and you can't really post a
union rep job on Indeed, but Iwas still looking you never know
and the amount of people andcompanies that are still
required post-secondaryeducation but we're starting

(49:12):
people off at like $60,000 ayear was a lot and in my brain
that's still good money, butwhen you have to take the 2025
fiscal reality of the averageprice of a one bedroom apartment
in Calgary being almost $2,000a month now, it's not enough.

Bill (49:32):
Yeah, and so, to be clear for folks, because $60,000 is
actually the magic number thatled to somebody writing me an
email after I had preached onetime and said that part of the
threshold for a low income inthat moment was if you were
below $60,000 a year.
And uh and um, I don't knowwhat the number is actually now

(49:56):
in 2025, because this was a fewyears ago but uh, but uh, the
person actually wrote and went60 K is a lot of money.
Um, like, that seems, that'sjust seems astronomical to me.
And uh, we're really quiteagitated to this idea that a
number that high would be thenumber.
But, to be clear, $60,000 wasprobably a lot of money at the

(50:16):
time that the individual whowrote me that email bought their
house 35 years before thewriting of that email.
And it was actually thatindividual's kids who I guess
they had been railing at afamily dinner about it, and it

(50:37):
was their kids who went.
Mom, he's right.
Like, like, you know what Imake?
It's more than 60 K and youknow how much I'm struggling
right now.

Laura (50:45):
Right.

Bill (50:46):
And and and so there was this like $60,000 was just, I
mean, the magic number thatreally kind of set off the whole
conversation.
I mean, it was a scathing emailto begin with.

Ricardo (50:58):
To draw the end of one of my rant, because the poverty
episode was last episode.
We missed that.
This is where neighbors come in, like we, you know, by
supporting the change that weneed to see in things.
That's how neighbors can helpeach other, like the way we vote
, the way we advocate, the waywe support our businesses.
So if we this is the only wordyou wanted to say if we shop in

(51:24):
places that the money doesn'tstay in Canada or even in
Calgary, then we're not doingourselves any favors either,
because there's a bunch of bigcompanies down at the bottom of
the hill where they'll pay theirworkers a salary and we know
they can afford to pay theirworkers more than they're paying
them.
So where's all that money going?

(51:45):
But right across this church,in the strip mall, across the
street, there's a butcher,there's a local bakery, there's
a nice little candy store too,where, if we buy from those
places, then those people spendthat money in our communities as
well and that helps bring upeverything and everybody's

(52:06):
standard of living, right, andwhen we start talking and
shopping.
But then the cycle becomes well, I can't afford to shop there.
You know, I really do want to,but my salary only supports me
being able to shop at the bigcorporations where the dollars
are lower.
Then we have to ask ourselves abroader question as neighbors

(52:28):
and as a community what are thesupport systems in place doing
for us so that we can increaseeverybody's standard of living?
Is $15 minimum wage enoughright?
Is no caps on insurancepremiums enough right?
Is no caps on heating and waterand electricity enough?
Is the market doing what it'ssupposed to be doing for working

(52:50):
people and bringing it?
Because we can talk abouthelping the unhoused as much as
we can through support systems,mental health shelters, but if
we're not actually helping theunhoused get housed, if that is
even out of our ability throughcharitable and social work, then
we have to make a broadercommunity question on what we're

(53:10):
doing and how we're doing itand the piece that, sorry, I was
going to say the piece that'sinteresting just about when you
talk about you know there's abakery right across the street
from this church.

Bill (53:19):
Right, and I'll be honest, I feel like I might be putting
their kids through college.

Ricardo (53:22):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you showed me the points.
App Bill.

Jun (53:30):
I didn't know'm the highest rank.

Bill (53:32):
But, more importantly than that, what we've experienced so
much more over time as I puttheir kids through college, is
that I walk out of that bakeryand I'm bumping into people that
I know that aren't here on aSunday morning but they're there
on a Monday afternoon and we'rewaiting as our coffee and our
order is being made and we'rechatting and we get to the point

(53:54):
now where we had some folksfrom the wider church that came
for a meeting and we all met onthe corner in the restaurant, on
the corner for lunch and we allwalked out and it was pouring
rain and just trying to walkfrom there back here to the
church, I was stopped like sixdifferent times by people who
are not parishioners of thischurch but that I know from you
know this anchor of this cornerthat seems to have so many

(54:16):
different businesses in it.
And when you start to realize,like you get to the point where
you can go oh hey, how did thatjob interview go?
Hey, you know, how's your momdoing?
Like these things that I wouldsay vocationally are a part of
the role that I, you know, servein the church, but not for
these folks, like they're nothere on a Sunday morning.
They're not on my pastoral carelist, they're just people that I

(54:37):
encounter in the community thatthen get to meet somebody else
who knows their story and isactually interested in them for
the sake of them and like.
That's the kind of idea of likecommunity resilience building,
where your lawn bowling, youknow enthusiast, you know that
you're, you're aware of, is thefirst person you think of when
you know there's a flood and yougo.
I wonder if they need help, notbecause of anything else other

(55:00):
than this random connection,that never would have happened,
um, if you hadn't taken the timeto expand, um, your, your sense
of like.
Who is actually your neighborbeyond the physical proximity?
I'm aware of time and we needto take an intermission and this
feels like a good place to stop.
We will come right back andfinish this conversation and I'm

(55:22):
starting with you, ricardo,because I've got a very specific
question for you to bring usback together but for now we're

(55:54):
going to take an intermissionand we to keep the conversation
going.
And, as promised before theintermission, ricardo, we're
coming to you because one of thethings that I've become aware
of as the adversary to reallybuilding relationships and
community resilience incommunities is a principle that
I think, at its core, most of usexperience in one way or
another, and we're probably allguilty of it in some ways as

(56:15):
well.
Wherever we draw the line ofthis mentality of we take care
of our own first, and so part ofwhat I've experienced in kind
of my work as a minister of achurch is how do we expand
people's definition of your own?
How do we expand people'sdefinition of your own?
And so, as I think about youespecially and your work often

(56:43):
it's not top-down work ofgetting people to redefine the
boundaries of your own you startvery much with workers and
neighbors banding together insolidarity that moves things
forward, and true solidarityright gather in solidarity that
moves things forward and truesolidarity right, not the stuff
that I think we kind of peddleas the, if I dare say it, on
church podcasts, the half-assedapproach that solidarity tends
to take in our world today.
So you've been part of placeswhere people have had to become

(57:05):
neighbors, that I think, asLaura had said before, the
intermission being in the sameroom with people you otherwise
might not be in the same roomwith, and survival and survival
is the strategy, more than justthe touchy, feely solidarity
language that we use.
Right, so how have you seenorganizing and collective action

(57:27):
serve as a way to break throughthe systemic walls that are
keeping people from trulylanding in their full belonging
in workplace communities?

Ricardo (57:37):
It's interesting the perspective I think you want me
to go in, because workers ownthe means of production.
But you know when Icollectively bargain and we
always want to lift up the valueand the quality of life of
working people everywhere.
But I think of your question inthe context of a queer
perspective and chosen family.
Because if we're going to talkabout, like, taking care of our

(58:00):
own first, then we have to lookat the perspective of a gay,
lesbian, bisexual, transgender,two-spirited person who comes
out and is then kicked out oftheir houses or ostracized by
their friends or lose their job.
And then they have to findcommunity and people that love
and support them and that thenbecomes their family.
And from a queer communityperspective, you find family and

(58:27):
you find your own real quickbecause they're all supporting
each other, especially right nowin the trans community where
they struggle to find.
I mean, I just two days ago sawthat Trump has given the order
to officially discharge alltrans people from the army in

(58:47):
the US, right, so it meanshundreds of people are now
losing their jobs there too.
All the laws that are beingpassed in place and trans
intersex people maybe occupy 1%to 2% of the general population,
but there's all this focusthat's coming upon them now.

(59:08):
And when we build community andwe find neighbors, we have to
understand and look at who.
No, we don't have to.
We have to stop trying tounderstand and stop trying to
look at people for what they areand the color of their skin or
who they identify as, and justhelp their humanity, because
then the search becomes so muchharder.

(59:30):
To try and find just food onthe table and a roof over your
head.
If you're a person in the2SLGBTQ community, you're
searching for a place to liveand your next meal and someone
just to give you a hug, becausethe unemployment rate is in the
60% to 70% to 80%.
The homelessness rate is in the60% to 70% to 80%.

(59:52):
You know, the homelessness rateis really high as well, and the
youth suffer the most, becausewhen they come out at such a
relatively young age, they'rethrown into the street with
almost no resources to help themlearn how to.
And so when we save and protectour own, we also save and
protect each other and ourselves, and so I think that it's

(01:00:16):
important for us to understandwhat our own means, more than
just who lives in our house,more than just the people on our
street, because sometimespeople are very quick to kick
out the people who theyconsidered once their own, based
on a difference, and then wehave to recreate our own

(01:00:38):
boundaries and our own families.
So the importance of being goodneighbors and the importance of
being a good community is towelcome all with just a beating
heart, to know that we all needthe same thing to survive and to
live right.
And when we have thesedifferences in people and we use

(01:01:01):
those differences to attack oneanother, we don't become
stronger as a species or as acommunity or as neighbors.
We become far weaker and moredivided.
I just got back from the USA afew days ago and I'm shocked
every time I go now under Trump.
I mean, I booked this trip whenI thought it was going to be a

(01:01:22):
Hidus and Walls or HarrisonWalls, so it was hard to do.
But I'll tell you a personalstory, just based on the
experience is that you know Iapplied for a Nexus card and I
got my interview and me and myfriend got our interviews at the
same time and without tellingyou he's white, I'll tell him.
But I've been denied my Nexusinterview, my Nexus application.

(01:01:46):
They didn't give me a reason.
They just said no, right.
And my friend got approved andwe're exactly like the same
person.
We're born a month apart, right.
And so that's how fragilecommunity can be, right?
So I have a group of friendsnow that want to go to the US
and they all have their Nexuscards and stuff and I have to go

(01:02:06):
in a separate line, right.
And so what do we do?
When we protect our own right,we have to make accommodations
and considerations and give helpso that everybody's included
and feels welcome, right, andthat's how we protect our own
and with each other and honestly, coming from the Marxist side,

(01:02:27):
I mean the upper class, thebillionaire class, right.
How are we protecting our own?
How are we ensuring thateverybody has a fair shake and
nobody's asking us to overthrowthe?
I mean, I am.

Jun (01:02:38):
I am.

Ricardo (01:02:40):
I'm saying burn it down .
But nobody's saying that.
We're just saying like, hey, weknow you're making record
profits.
Don't tell us the best you cangive us is 50 cents an hour.
Right, on a full-time job, thatequals, actually Safeway.
I'll repeat this every podcastrolled back everybody's wages
6.5% in February.
Right, it wasn't an increase.
They rolled back their wages by6.5% because they told them

(01:03:04):
you're being paid too much.
That's all they said.
They said it's not that wecan't afford to, we just don't
want to.
And so corporations are doingthis.
They're making record profits.
So where has the mentality insociety gone, where they're
showing everybody that we'remaking gazillions of dollars,
they're refusing us to give uswhat we need to survive and in
the middle they're just sayingwe don't really care, you're not

(01:03:25):
going to do anything about itanyway, right?
So how do we keep each othersafe?

Brian (01:03:31):
You know I think a lot about when you were talking
about the trans community andyou can read about.
They were taking very unpopularpositions on birth control and
abortion.
So they focus, grouped it andfound the most vulnerable group

(01:04:03):
in trans people that were easierto target right.
And so I think it's importantto call that out because there
is a group, there are groups outthere that are trying to
manipulate and tap into ouranger and our distrust and
divide us.
Yep, and our fear and our hatredand our yeah, I mean all of it,

(01:04:25):
right, yeah, and so I thinkit's important to point that out
and recognize what's happeningso you can identify that you are
being manipulated and so thatwe can get back to focusing on
what there's so much more thatbrings us together community and
she's brought me to Stonewatersand some of these events with
youth that are struggling in thecommunity to find support, and

(01:05:02):
you cannot go to those eventswithout feeling the pain of
people who have been cut offfrom their community very early
on and had to develop their ownto your point.
And so I think it's important toget back to um, to focus and
not be manipulated and focus onwhat binds us together, which is
a lot.
Right, there is, and that'swhat we have to build in Calgary
, I think you know, even as I'vetalked to communities Muslim

(01:05:24):
communities and Israelicommunities, um, and, and you
talk about what binds them, youknow, uh, I was talking to
Muslim communities who weresaying you know, these are our
cousins, and when we were tryingto build a mosque on the west
side of Calgary, we couldn't getit done for 10 years and the
rabbi spoke up and that's how wegot it built.
And so, remembering that, we'vebuilt something really special

(01:05:46):
in Calgary that binds ustogether and recognizes our
difference I think it's andcelebrates it, and not being
manipulated into what makes usangry and makes us feel them and
us.

Jun (01:05:59):
So true when you say, like I'll connect to the word
included and what binds us aswell.
Ricardo was also talking about.
You know, to protect our ownand to make people like feel
included, and that really isstill in alignment of what we've

(01:06:23):
discussed early on.
But also, the question that weneed to pose ourselves is that
whether we are creatingGod-enlightened spaces wherever
we go, whether we are a worker,whether we are a father, whether
we are a mom or a neighbor, weneed to ask ourselves are we

(01:06:43):
creating God-enlightened spacesin wherever I am, in, wherever
we are?
And, of course, when we askthat to ourselves, is that how
are we helping others?
That can be in the form of justlistening, it can be in the
form of offering help, it can bein a form of whatever ways that

(01:07:06):
potentially you could do.
But on the other hand, I alsounderstand the need for an
individual, you know,individually, as a person, how
do we support and help, you know, elevate the conditions of
other people?
But also we need to askourselves how can we make sure
that we are also, you know, likecontributing to the political

(01:07:29):
solutions of the problems thatwe have?
And that means to reallydissect, to really deep dive
into the policies that keep thepeople, the problem to be more
complex, that keep the problemin place like a glue.
You know that you can take itaway, because poverty, for

(01:07:53):
example, homelessness, areactually very much associated
with a policy that thegovernment is taking too, or
that the businesses are takingtoo, or, you know, like any
institutions would.
So I think, while we look atourselves individually of what
we can contribute but we need toas well be a contributor to a

(01:08:19):
long-term solution Look into thesystems.
What policies should we shift?
What are practices that need tostop Like, for example, the
requirement of a one-yearCanadian experience?
How can a newcomer be requested, demanded, to come up with a

(01:08:39):
one-year Canadian experience?
He just landed two months agoand you're asking for a Canadian
experience.
That is a practice, right.
And then we look into resources.
Are we providing?
We providing, you know, like,are we listening to the voices
of those people with liveexperiences that are greatly
impacted by the policy or thepractices that are pervading in

(01:09:03):
the community?
So we need to look at resourceallocation.
You know, I like the way youput it, like ricardo with
Ricardo, with how the businessare actually earning massively
but they're only able to give $1or 50 cents I don't know how
much it is, but it's kind oflike really very meager in

(01:09:27):
comparison to the total income.
But we need as well to examineare the people who are
experiencing the problem in thetable of decision-making?
And these are the missingvoices and we need them to be in
this table so that ourdecisions are informed by them,

(01:09:47):
that their lived experiences arekind of like integrated into
the whole concept of thecommunity solutions.
But at the crux of this is alsothe mental model, the deep
belief that we have of others,whether that would be like their
sexual orientation, or whetherthat be by their color or by

(01:10:08):
their religion.
You know this deep-seatedbelief we need to ask ourselves
you know, are we creatingGod-enlightened spaces by the
deep belief that we have?
You know your example, bill,about.
You know, no way can I live ina house, you know, in a house in
a community where there areblacks.

(01:10:28):
That is a deep-seated beliefand we need to question that.
And how are we transitioningthat in such a way that we look
into the policy but at the sametime, individually, we're also
creating that God-enlightenedspaces as a good neighbor.

Laura (01:10:46):
I think that brings to mind for me something that I
heard earlier today.
I was at a conference inEdmonton with a whole bunch of
nonprofit leaders and actuallyNahed Nenshi was there and
speaking, and one of the thingsthat really struck me that he
talked about is, you know, heasked how many people drove up
to the radio or something, andkind of everybody put their hand

(01:11:13):
up and he said, okay, how manyof you were listening to a
streaming your playlist?
And fewer people because of theage and demographic of the room
.
But he said that we often findourselves engaging with
information that we've curatedfor ourselves, which becomes

(01:11:33):
then, of course, an echo chamber, which makes it harder to
connect and we're not beingexposed to new information and
new stories because you knowwe're only listening to Alanis
Morissette and Matchbox 20 orsomething, and so you want to
make sure that you're, you know,exposing yourself to more than
just a curated playlist that'sgiving you the same information

(01:11:54):
and the same storytelling overand over and over again, and
then by you know, connecting ona story level with people and
connecting in community, thatyou're going to hear stuff that
challenges you and you're goingto hear stuff that's, you know,
that resonates and that's areally.
It can be a hard space to sit inand sometimes it's a little
uncomfortable or a lotuncomfortable, but I think it's

(01:12:16):
important to continue to show upin those spaces and to, to, you
know, have have make sure thatthe playlists that you're you
know, in the podcast air quotesthat you're listening to are are
reflective of a larger, youknow, a larger community and a
larger world experience than youmight be getting.
Because if you just hear thesame types of people, you know,

(01:12:41):
if you think you're a penguinand you're surrounded by
penguins, you know you're goingto believe you're a penguin and
you might not be.

Bill (01:12:47):
Yeah Well, and I've said before, I'll say it over and
over and over again like wechoose the authorities in our
lives right by whatever metric,I remember, you know, the
federal election just happenedin Canada and on election day I
did, I went and I voted and Itook my selfie, you know, next
to the vote sign so that I couldhopefully go get the free ice
cream later and didn't end uphappening.

(01:13:08):
But and I even said when Iposted it on social media, you
know like, go and vote and votewith whatever authority it is
that you you know uplift asbeing the one that drives you to
vote right, but just go and doit and then get out of the way
and let other people do it too,based on their metric right.
But the flip side that I don'ttalk about at parties as much,

(01:13:28):
that probably you know ought tobe said just as much as you also
have the choice of upliftingauthorities in your life with
integrity or without it, and weall get to make that choice with
every decision around.
Who am I going to believe?
What voices am I going tolisten to?
And in the age of social medianot that I will demonize

(01:13:52):
everything about social media.
It has, as with all things ithas, a complex relationship with
humanity and with the way thatwe live.
But the trouble with socialmedia, more than anything, is
that it is very easy to createthe echo chamber, and the
studies have been done on.
What does it mean?

(01:14:13):
When you have a thousandfollowers and you post something
and one person says I disagreewith that?
It usually means they're nolonger a part of your network,
right, not?
Hey, let's have a conversationabout why it is that you
disagree.
Maybe there's information thatI haven't heard yet.
It's a now.
999 people said you know, likeheart or whatever the case may

(01:14:34):
be.
They loved my post, youdisagreed, you're just out and
what you do is curate um, this,this, this narcissistic kind of
view of the world.

Laura (01:14:45):
Um, and the algorithms are designed to do that Exactly
that Give us what we want to seeand give us what we've always
engaged with.
And so you know you're kind ofalways being fed information
that sort of agrees with yourpoint of view, and I think
that's really that's dangerous.
I think that that's not veryneighborly, quite honestly, and
I think you know we need to makesure that we're checking in

(01:15:05):
with that on a regular basis tomake sure we're opening our eyes
to new perspectives andunderstanding people who live
and look and work and do thingsdifferently than us.
And yeah, I think like socialmedia totally serves that up on
a platter in terms of like it'sgiving you what you want to see.
It'll tell you the things.

Ricardo (01:15:22):
It's interesting you say and both of you talk about
media because Australia justcame out of an election and in
Australia they have mandatoryvoting and they also have a
preferential ballot, so you putyour first, second and third
choice on your ballot so theycan gauge.
But when they were interviewingone of the candidates, they
said the biggest challenge theyhad was combating social media

(01:15:47):
driven news versus the actualnews given by.
And Australia has gone throughtheir fight with Meta and all of
the media, social media outlets, and they've come to a
settlement of whatever hundredsof millions of dollars to pay.
But you know, canada stillhasn't and we have that media
law and good or bad forwhoever's opinion is of it I

(01:16:12):
can't look at CBC on Instagramright here in Canada have that
media law and good or bad forwhoever's opinion is of it.
I can't look at CBC onInstagram right here in Canada.

Laura (01:16:20):
But when I was in Detroit last week.

Ricardo (01:16:21):
I was looking at CBC's feed, it was pretty cool when
that law came into effect.
Every single data metric saidevery media list lost 43% of
viewership.
Said every media list lost 43%of viewership.
43% was on social media, whichequated to 11.9 million page
views a day.

Laura (01:16:39):
People aren't getting the information 43%, exactly, well,
people are getting thatinformation.

Ricardo (01:16:43):
They're getting a version of information.
43% of people are getting aversion of information done
exclusively through social mediainfluencers, who are just
pushing their opinion andnarrative through microphones as
opposed to and look, we can allhave our opinion on media and
the bias of media, and we canalso all do our research on
which media outlet we choose tofollow, and it will tell you if

(01:17:05):
they're right-leaning,left-leaning, if they're
communist revolutionaries or ifthey're.
You know what I'm saying?
Yeah, but the fact of thematter is we can't even really
do that in Canada.
There's so much social mediainfluence with the generation
under 40, uh, who just gostraight to Instagram and
Facebook rather than like theCBC news app or the CTV.

Laura (01:17:24):
They don't even Google.
They don't even Google.

Ricardo (01:17:28):
They don't even, and we've, we don't.
So this fight has to end iswhat I'm really saying.
I, I do.
I agree with the law that wasput in by the government.
Yeah, I mean, why are theygetting a free ride?
They're one of the richestcompanies in the world, right,
but the fight has to end.
We have to come to a settlementbecause we are now losing a
whole, almost generation orgroup of people that don't know

(01:17:50):
how to take media bias andcritically think about the news
sources they're hearing about.
They're listening to peoplescreaming, and the point I'm
trying to say is all of thatinfluence they get is creating
the lexicon to which they behavein the outside world towards
each other.
Absolutely Right.

Bill (01:18:09):
It impacts their ability to create meaningful community
and it impacts their ability toactually cross divides that
don't actually exist for them,that somebody tells them is
there, with no integrity orlived experience to confirm or
prove otherwise.

Ricardo (01:18:26):
Because what I may hate or like about certain media
groups, I don't even think themost right-wing media groups in
Canada or the US will tellpeople to take up arms and go
and fight or hurt these peopleInfluencers do.

Bill (01:18:40):
Yes.

Ricardo (01:18:42):
They tell people hurt this group or do not like this
group.
They tell that with freedom ofwhatever sort of loose security
protocols Instagram or Facebookwill have, and that's what
people are listening to.
That's the problem we have.
It's directly affecting the waythat they treat our people
around us.

Laura (01:19:01):
I think Australia also just banned cell phones for
young people.

Ricardo (01:19:04):
Everyone under the age of 16.

Laura (01:19:05):
Yeah, which I think is it'll be interesting to see how
that, you know, shakes out interms of, like, mental health
for youth and connectivity and,you know, relationships with
media and different things.

Ricardo (01:19:15):
We'll see how time is.
New Zealand's had it for almosta year now.

Laura (01:19:18):
We'll see how time goes on.

Brian (01:19:21):
You know the.
The interesting debate is uh,for me is the we.
We don't agree on what thetruth is anymore.

Laura (01:19:29):
Um.

Brian (01:19:29):
I find that fascinating.
It used to be.
There were known truths outthere that we all acknowledged,
and with the social media andall that, we've lost that kind
of north star of this is a truthand and people manipulate it in
so many ways.
It must be really.
It's disconcerting for us and Iimagine, if you're the young

(01:19:50):
people that you interact withevery day, how disconcerting is
as you're trying to form yourrelationship with society and
you can't find that North Starof what's an actual fact.

Laura (01:20:02):
It's very disconcerting, yeah and trying to navigate some
of the most awkward years ofyour life in lots of ways, very
publicly, whether you've chosento have it publicly or not, with
online bullying and all sortsof all sorts of things.
I mean, I will say that youknow, youth that I work with are
also using it.
You know there's youth that gettogether for gaming and all

(01:20:24):
sorts of different types ofthings, which has bringing them
community, and what's beenreally cool is that some of our
folks that have met through ourprogramming are now, you know,
hanging out online or hangingout at, you know, comic expo and
cool places, cool things likethat, and so they're kind of
taking the online world in thereal world and vice versa, and,

(01:20:44):
and so that's been really good.
But, yeah, I can't imagine, youknow, I grew up a pretty analog
kid.
Um, thankfully, and uh, I thinkit's, uh, you know it's, it's
it's hard to be a young personwhere, yeah, you don't, you
don't know what's true and andour brains have this really
awesome way of telling useverything we hear is true.
Um, because you know that's,our brains are lizards basically

(01:21:05):
, and so, you know, they, they,they believe a lot of things and
there's, you know, folks thatprey on that in a really big way
.
I can think of a couple that Ishall remain nameless, but that
are targeting our young peopleand, you know, really providing
them.
They're providing them with thethings that these young people
feel like they're missing, likecommunity and belonging.

(01:21:25):
But it's not community andbelonging for good, it's
community and belonging for somepretty ill intentions and
harmful intentions.

Bill (01:21:36):
Yep.
So there's a thread runningthrough all of this stuff that
neighborliness or taking care ofeach other or kind of investing
in the people in our communityand expanding those walls is not
something that is passive, it'snot something you can't.
You can't just say, hey, I'm anice guy and leave it at that.

(01:21:58):
Right, this is a kind of anaction, a chosen, kind of
intentional thing that that weneed to do again and again and
again.
It's something that we need topractice.
It's something that we that we,I think we need to wrestle with
constantly and listen for thevoices that are not actually
part of the narrative, part ofthe lexicon that we're using.

(01:22:24):
And in the Samaritan story, inthe parable of the Good
Samaritan, it wasn't just aboutstopping to help, right, that's
the first thing recognizing theneed, and stopping and helping
certainly happened.
But then there's the followthrough Right, there's the
relationship that's kind ofbuilt, taking responsibility,
right, not just for the momentbut for the longer term.

(01:22:46):
And we always try to bend ourpodcast as we get to the end of
it towards hope.
Because if there isn't any,then what are we doing, right?
So I'm going to ask a couple ofquestions.
We'll see how these land.
These are a bit moretheoretical or hopefully a bit
more experiential.
Where have you seen and it's toanyone who wants to answer to

(01:23:10):
start where have you seenunlikely relationships become
the place where healing actuallystarts?
Where have you seen in your ownexperience, your own life.

Jun (01:23:30):
Unlikely relationships become the place where healing
actually starts.
It's a very profound question.

Bill (01:23:39):
Thank you.
Like I think of Laura's storyabout the person in the program
that applied for scholarships,you know, and this relationship
of again like people comingtogether had been part of the
supportive relationship that youknow, this young person now
actually has, as you said, alife-changing opportunity, right
, like, whatever ends uphappening with it, the ripple

(01:24:06):
effect of it is massive, right.
That to me would be a primeexample, not that I'm letting
you off the hook with one you'vealready given, but to put some
context around it, I guess, orsome opportunity.

Brian (01:24:15):
I mean, I'll throw one out.
Maybe this is what you'regetting at, but what has struck
me, a I have, if you're lookingfor hope, this journey that I'm
on as I'm going around Calgaryand meeting all these amazing
agencies and I was talking aboutthis earlier, but I go home to
my wife and I talk about youknow, what did you learn today?

(01:24:37):
And there's both these likereally imposing problems of
housing and public safety, butalso these amazing groups and
individuals that are working tosolve them in their community
and lifting people up.
And I would say you know, I'vemet with I call it 20, 25 of the

(01:24:57):
mental health and addictionagencies that are working in our
communities and, like some ofthose agencies, are run by
former addicts and working sideby side with police officers and
healthcare workers.
And you don't necessarily youwere talking about unlikely
relationships you don'tnecessarily expect, you know,

(01:25:19):
police officers and paramedicsand former addicts and health
care workers to be comingtogether and developing
relationships and solvingproblems, but they are.

Bill (01:25:30):
Absolutely, and some of the old models, they're actually
on opposite sides of a reallybig divide.

Brian (01:25:35):
Yeah almost in combat with one another, and they are.
The hopeful part for me is thatthey are working together.
They recognize the need for oneanother and they're solving
some of the hardest problemsthat are out there for society,
so that gives me a lot of hope.

Jun (01:25:53):
In the space where I am working with ethnocultural
communities and also having thisintention to support in ways
possible that I could in theorganization, in addressing not
only the immediate needs butreally the system and the policy

(01:26:17):
and the practices.
And in one of my encounters Iam in a space alongside with
other service providers formental health and they have been
talking a lot abouttrauma-informed care, which

(01:26:38):
really is fantastic.
We need to approach everyindividual using a
trauma-informed in a way lookingat them that we don't add
trauma to the trauma that theyhave, that we don't add trauma
to the trauma that they have.
But from the lens andperspective of an ethno-cultural

(01:27:00):
communities.
There's also a different layerof trauma and this is the racial
trauma, the everydaymicroaggression where you know
like whenever you are in thetrain, if you're a black and
indigenous or people of color,you sit there, when you come

(01:27:21):
into the train and you sit tosomebody else and that somebody
else would take the bag andreally do like this.
It doesn't really feelwelcoming, you know and you feel
that every day.
You know Then that reallycreates a lot of mental anxiety
and mental stresses that wouldlead to mental health issues as

(01:27:45):
well.
So microaggression and then ifyou apply a job, every day you
go from hop from you know fromone place to the other, but not
a single interview at allBecause by virtue of your color,
probably because of youreducation, back in the country,

(01:28:05):
wherever you are.
So what I'm trying to say isthat there is a level of racial
trauma and my experience was toadvance that you know.
We also have to recognizeracial trauma in the
trauma-informed when we areworking with racialized
individuals.

(01:28:27):
It should be embedded in ourguidelines.
It should be embedded in theway that we also practice our
care.
But I was so distraught becauseafter one year of putting that

(01:28:48):
forward, everyone seems to agreethat yeah, we need to integrate
that.
But when we are in the act ofintegrating it, there are a lot
of people, a lot of service,some service but not a lot, but
some who have questioned why itshould be considered at all.
Look into the other.
So that kind of like brought meto.

(01:29:09):
You know how difficult it is tobring this kind of issues into
collaboratives.
But a silver lining there isthat there are also a lot who
really push for it and that upto now we continue to work on

(01:29:30):
the document to make sure thatracial trauma is integrated into
the definition of thetrauma-informed care.
I know it has been a verycontentious.
There were months that it wasso contentious, but what we've
seen as well that some of thoseservice providers have also left

(01:29:50):
the collaborative.
Because of that it feels so bad, but I also believe that it is
for us.
Whatever color you have,whatever religion you have,
whatever other demographics youmight be, I thought it's very

(01:30:14):
important to really come into aspace of understanding, come
into a space where we listen towhat the other is and this
brings us to, you know, likehope and the silver lining, the
rainbows.
These are the things that I seeas important.
Now that we are spring, we lookat our garden.

(01:30:36):
We want that to be multicolored, we want that to have a lot of
color.
So that's diversity.
But if we shine only, if wegive sunshine to only one plant,
we give one sunshine, water tothat one plant, that that can be
so dominant and when you gointo that garden it can be

(01:30:57):
multicolored.
But the others, you know thetone of the garden, the texture
is really monotone.
So what I'm trying to drive islet's listen to as many views,
let's welcome as many people inour community and that would you

(01:31:20):
know.
Let's start off the hope thatcan spring into actually action,
positive actions that wouldtransform the lives of people.
Thank you, thank you.

Ricardo (01:31:34):
I like what you said and I think that this is not a
really unlikely relationship,but a relationship that is long
overdue as collaboration.
For too long, especially inlabor and unions, we've operated
outside the social work andgroups that exist when there's

(01:31:54):
so much intersectionalitybetween all of us right, I mean,
I'll openly admit.
We've recently started apartnership between Action
Dignity and ourselves to try,which I am very happy, rick.
We're trying to start apartnership with the Calgary
Alliance for the Common Good,because we, Our members who work
in the stores, if they are newCanadians and they seek help or
support, they go to thesecommunity groups and these

(01:32:16):
community organizations and theydon't think to ask their union
for help as well.
And it could be a work-relatedissue, but these communications
don't line up.
So I think that the unlikelyrelationship is not just
unlikely, it's long overdue, andthat's how healing begins when

(01:32:38):
we all work together andcollaboratively.
We have our own goals and ourown missions and our own action.
Dignity has their own projects.
Two Wheel View has their ownprojects.
I'm not sure if Two Wheel Viewwould get on board with a dental
care advancement clause in acollective agreement, but I'm
sure I mean for sure though theywould probably get on board
with better health care for allchildren, right, Because we want

(01:33:01):
them to all ride bikes andthose kind of things.
So like there isintersectionality in all of our
groups, and these are therelationships that are long
overdue, especially to be ableto react and support people
during times like these wheresuch an unpredictable form of
discrimination is happening,where we can't even imagine what

(01:33:23):
the next thing would be.
If everyone has seen thatpicture of Trump in the Pope's
costume, did anyone know wherethat was posted?

Laura (01:33:34):
On the White House page.

Ricardo (01:33:35):
White House page, the White House Instagram page.
Okay, that was posted on theWhite House Instagram page right
next to another post that saidDEI, not diversity, equity,
inclusion.
He wrote deport every illegal.
Cool On the White HouseInstagram page.
So this is the reason whycollaboration is it's not just

(01:33:55):
to build the relationships andhelp each other, it's also to
like, combine resources andcombine our skills and our
knowledge and our support systemso we can all help each other.
And that's actually how healingbegins, because I can say to
myself someone can say I need away to get to work.
You know I can't afford a buspass, but I live very close to

(01:34:16):
work.
And I can say I need a way toget to work.
You know I can't afford a buspass, but I live very close to
work.
And I can say hey, why don'tyou go see Two Wheel View?
They might have somebody thatwill have a good bike for sale
for you, right.
Or to help you out withsomething.

Bill (01:34:26):
They do Exactly right.

Ricardo (01:34:27):
Or I need my kids sitting on the couch all day
long.
Give them a hobby.

Laura (01:34:31):
They're really mechanical ?

Ricardo (01:34:32):
Hey, right, or my kid likes walking.
How do you feel about doorknocking, hey?

Brian (01:34:38):
we can put them to work.

Ricardo (01:34:39):
I know a lot of campaigns always got work to do
right so absolutely.
This is where relationshipslike this are not just, uh,
unlikely.
They're overdue and they needto happen soon.

Bill (01:34:50):
Well, in some cases, I think some of the some of the
important things to to consider.
Um, as, as we we wrap up here,trying to be sensitive to time,
it starts with showing up, atits core and a business degree,

(01:35:13):
into a room full of doctors andlike well-trained people and
going I may not actually be the,you know, the person in the
room with the education right,being able to show up to say
maybe I don't have all theanswers, maybe I actually, like
I have something of myself thatI can offer, but looking for the

(01:35:34):
points of connection, thepoints of intersectionality, and
doing it with the commitmentand the intention to leave this
world better than we found it,not just for your own, but for
everybody, right, so thateverybody gets to thrive and
everybody gets to grow andeverybody gets to flourish and

(01:35:56):
become all that they can be.
I always get the last word.
It's just the way that it works.
And I think that the mostimportant thing that I am
constantly reminded about, goingback to where we started, the
parable of the Good Samaritan,is that Jesus is sitting in

(01:36:17):
front of a crowd and he's being.
He's just finished telling themlove your neighbor as yourself.
And the first response to thiscommandment to love your
neighbor as yourself is well,but who's my neighbor?
Right, like, let's get the fineprint on who I actually have to
include in this circle, right?
Spoiler alert go back and readthe story again in your Bibles

(01:36:39):
or Google it online.
If you don't have one, that'sperfectly okay too.
He never answers the question.
He never says this is yourneighbor.
He actually tells a story aboutsomebody who crosses barriers,
supports somebody who's supposedto be an enemy, does it better
than the people who are actuallyenshrined in the society, and

(01:37:02):
does it for the long term, notfor just the moment, and then
says which of these people wasthe neighbor?
So he doesn't actually say thisis who is in the circle.
What his answer is is go outand do that and you will be the
neighbor.
So in all of this I really wantto uphold we all have choices,

(01:37:29):
we all have agency.
We all get to choose whichauthorities we're going to lift
up and choose who it is thatwe're going to let into the
circle.
It is my hope and my prayeralways that we are doing the
work of expanding the circle andensuring that nobody is left

(01:37:50):
behind or nobody is left at adisadvantage, and that it
happens in a way that long afterwe are done our work, the
ripples continue for far morepeople than we can ever possibly
fathom.
And so with that we're going toclose off and I'm going to say
to everybody who is listeningthank you for listening To our

(01:38:12):
audience, who is here in person.
Thank you for being here andbeing such an engaged audience.
Thank you for being here andbeing such an engaged audience.
Thank you to Ricardo, as always, for being a mainstay on this
panel, but especially tonight,laura, brian and June, it has
been an absolute privilege tohave you here.
I am so grateful to all of youfor taking the time to be here,
and, as well, we say thank youto the United Church of Canada
Foundation for their support ofthis podcast, and we will see

(01:38:36):
you in June when we have anotherfantastic podcast episode
coming up entitled Parting theBinary.
Let my Gender Flow, because itwill be Pride Month and we are
going to be doing all thingspride for that panel.
So take care of yourselves andeach other.
Find ways to expand the circle,find ways to connect with

(01:38:59):
people at a relational level,because it makes more of a
difference than you can everpossibly realize.
Thanks and good night, andthat's where we're going to
leave it for today.
Friends, what you've heardaround this table isn't just
theory.
It's testimony to the power ofrelationships that cross divides
, to the resilience that risesin community and to the kind of

(01:39:19):
neighborliness that isn'tcontent with niceties but
insists on justice, belongingand long-haul solidarity.
So go out there and be a damngood neighbor, show up, reach
across barriers, risk connectionand keep breaking open the
circle until everyone has aplace.
If this conversation stirredsomething in you, you can keep
it going by subscribing whereveryou get your podcasts or by

(01:39:39):
joining us on Patreon.
You'll also find past episodesand blog reflections and a few
other behind-the-scenes extrasat PreparedToDrowncom.
Until next time, stay curious,stay kind and remember grace is
wide and you are never in thisalone.

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