Episode 10 - Cannonballs and Bellyflops: Making a Splash with Listener Questions! - Prepared to Drown: Deep Dives into an Expansive Faith

Episode Transcript
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Bill (00:09):
All right, friends, this one's a little different, for
our final episode of Season 1,we're handing the mic over to
you, your questions, yourcuriosities, your reflections on
this wild and beautiful andsoul-stretching season of
Prepared to Drown.
We're live tonight, with noedits, no scripts, just three
friends and co-conspiratorsreflecting on what it means to
do theology in real time, totalk about God, grief, queerness

(00:31):
, grace, and the way it all hitswhen the microphones are off
and real life keeps happening.
What have we learned?
What surprised us, what stillneeds to be said and what's next
?
And maybe most importantly,what kind of expansive, holy,
justice-loving faith are westill daring to imagine?
Together?
I'm Bill Weaver and this isPrepared to Drown, and we are

(00:54):
here on a gorgeous July eveninghere in the basement of McDougal
United Church, for our latestepisode of Prepared to Drown.
And we are excited about thisone because this is answering
listener questions.
We have been getting somequestions sent in to us from our
listeners over the past coupleof months and we are here to try
to answer them all off.
So, to start with tonight, weare going to go inward a little

(01:16):
bit before we get into the bigideas and thorny topics that
will come after the intermission.
The first questions are morepersonal.
They're about joy and grace anddreams and the kind of stuff
that lives under the surface forus most days.
You ready for this one?
There's a line in Psalm 42 thatsays deep calls to deep, and

(01:37):
I've always loved the poetry ofthe Psalms, especially this line
, because it reminds me that wedon't meet God by climbing into
certainty or by getting all theanswers right.
Sometimes we meet God by goingdeep into our own lives and in
that depth of our own stories wefind the depth of God in our
midst as well.
So I really do believe that themore honest we are with
ourselves and about ourselves,the more room we make to

(01:59):
encounter something holy.
So with that, before we jumpinto theology and systems and
work stuff, we're going to startwith some real talk about what
brings us joy, what weighs on usand how we are trying to give
ourselves a little bit moregrace along the way, because
people wanted to know about it.
So I'll put the first questionout there and whoever wants to

(02:20):
answer first can answer first onthis one.
Do you have a bucket list?

Joanne (02:28):
No, no, no, I think for me, you, like, I sort of think
of life as a web, right, andthat you take a step and then
you have like 10 options infront of you and you take, you
know, you choose one of thosepaths and then another 10

(02:51):
options open up and if you havea bucket list like these are the
things I want to do, you reallylimit what the possibilities
are for your life, right,because you always it's like I
always say, the differencebetween me and my husband Dave,
is that he is destinationoriented, he wants to get

(03:11):
someplace, and if something getsin the way of him getting there
, he gets frustrated, whereasI'm journey oriented and I'm
like oh, this is an interestingtwist, let's see where that
leads.
So no bucket lists.
Interesting twist, let's seewhere that leads.
So no bucket lists.
When I was young, I had a bucketlist.
Actually, like I was like eightyears old and I was born in the
States.
So I remember telling myfriends well, first I'm going to

(03:33):
be the prime minister of Canadaand then I'm going to be the
president of the United States.
Because I could, because I wasborn there, I had very many
lofty goals when I was young andyou get to a certain point in
your life where you're like, oh,it's too late for that.
Oh, no, can't do that anymore,can't do this.
So then you get to the pointwhere you're like, I'm just
going to open myself to whatlife has, and in the midst of

(03:55):
that is not just youraccomplishments, it's also, you
know, the failures, the thingsthat hit you that really knock
you down.
All that happens.
So you got to adjust your life.
A lot, you know, particularlyas you get older and health
issues happen.
So you know, I just like tograb opportunities as they come.
So no, I do not have a bucketlist.

Ricardo (04:15):
I don't know.
It seems like everyquestionnaire and form that I
have put in front of me over thepast number of years I've said
I wanted to be in a 300 pounds,so we'll see if that ever
happens.

Joanne (04:26):
I have clothes that are a bucket list, yeah.

Ricardo (04:28):
I have a bucket list box of smaller clothes Me too.

Joanne (04:32):
Maybe I'll wear that again.
Who cares if it's?

Ricardo (04:34):
out of style, yeah.

Joanne (04:35):
I'm here, I'm there with you.

Ricardo (04:37):
You're right, like when I was a kid I mean I always
wanted to be a bus driver.
It was so weird.
It was so weird it was, I don'tknow, I think in the summertime
my dad used to take time offand we used to go all over
Calgary by the bus and I fell inlove with it.
So I fell into the job that I'min pretty pretty I don't know
what the word is like just kindof happened.
Right, my bucket list wouldjust be you know, I mean,

(04:59):
everyone has those goals of likebeing gazillionaire and being
the prime minister, and theneverybody wants to go later on
when they realize that you know,you only earn so much money per
hour and maybe I'll focus ontraveling.
I guess now it's like let's seeif I can keep my NMAX bill
under $300 a month.

Joanne (05:17):
So it's um.

Ricardo (05:18):
I think it's just, yeah , it just it becomes more
realistic and more, more, uh,more pragmatic think in a lot of
ways, but my bucket list isstill to see the world.
I'm born and raised in Calgaryand my family's all in Calgary
and Calgary will always be homebase for me, but there's a giant
big world out there to see andI find that's my one main goal

(05:41):
in life is to see a world andsee other cultures and see other
people, Because I actually knowa lot of Albertans that have
never left the four corners ofthis province.
Never, Right.
I know a lot of people thathave never left the four corners
of this province and and youknow it's like, oh, where have
you been?
And I was like, well, I've beenall over this place, these,
these places here, and oh, I'venever really been anywhere

(06:01):
Edmonton, whatever, whatever.
So and I think that feeds intoa lot of the like, some of the
narratives that they have aboutthe rest of Canada and this
province.
But, yeah, traveling for sure.
You know, I'm fortunate to havea good job now, and so I save a
little bit of money every checkand I try and go somewhere new
every year.

Joanne (06:18):
So, yeah, I'm guessing the guy who needs to close his
rings every day has a bucketlist.
I have a bucket list, See.

Bill (06:25):
I think it's a competitive thing too.
I'm also young, right.
So I hear, when I was young Ihad one.
It's like okay, then I don'tfeel so bad, because, yes, I do.
And I mean, like some of themare certainly no secret, like
most of the world now knows,because I am that pretentious
about it, that I will run amarathon before I'm 50, right,
and that has like consumed mylife for the past couple of

(06:48):
years at least.
And yeah, I'm enslaved to myrings and I'm enslaved to the
training and the failures andthe oh my pace is down and oh,
my endurance is up, and you know, like just all that kind of
stuff, right, and all the thingsthat go along with it, like in
the sort of the messy fitnessindustry that, uh, like I weigh
myself every day and there's Ilike I'm constantly like

(07:09):
checking out like what's the newapp, what's the new, you know,
and like it.
It just it consumes uh so muchof so much of time.
But but yeah, I mean, like Iwould say like for me, travel is
also a big one because, um,when I was younger I traveled
more and I can remember, insimpler times when I had minimal
responsibilities and if Iwanted to.

(07:32):
I would just like randomly sayyou know what, screw it, I'm
driving to Ontario and just packmy car and go and sort of the
freedom to do that.
But also, like I've beenthrough every state except for
Alaska and not spent any realtime in any of them, but
certainly, like you know, purelyfor the ability to say that
I've been through every state,you know we'll take the scenic
route to get from point A topoint B so that I can pass

(07:55):
through.
You know C and D in the process.
And so.

Joanne (07:59):
I'd like to, I'd like to actually, well, there are a few
times where it's like oh sorry,did it happen already?
Oh yeah, especially in theStates.
They're so small yeahno-transcript.

Bill (08:31):
Less and less like that, you know, with every person.

Joanne (08:34):
I talk to Freedom, 75.

Bill (08:36):
Right and and and maybe we actually need to start, you
know, like how, how are we goingto see Ireland together or
Scotland together or Scotlandtogether or any of these places
that are actually on our bucketlist of places?
So I can say that I havetraveled North America
extensively, but not necessarilywith any kind of emotional

(08:57):
engagement in any way, and Ilove 10 years of work projects
in Mexico and the wholeexperience of kind of being.
I've never done resort Mexico.
I've only done.

Joanne (09:09):
Oh, I have yeah.

Bill (09:11):
I've only done.

Joanne (09:12):
Barcelo.

Bill (09:14):
I've only done Tijuana Upper Baja working in Orfeo.

Ricardo (09:19):
When I was a kid, we would drive everywhere.

Joanne (09:23):
Yes, us too yeah.

Ricardo (09:24):
You know, like we half of my family's in England, so
we'd go once in once every fewyears to London to see family.
But we drive everywhere and askids we would that Plymouth
Voyager with no DVD player andwe could have been a horse and
buggy and through red hot coalsif there was a swimming pool at
the hotel at the other end ofthat trip.
Right, yeah, that's right.
If there was a pool at thatstop at the Super 8 Motel, my

(09:45):
parents could take us anywhere.
We went to Florida once, Ithink from Calgary, to Florida.
Yes, yes and that's the thingwith the Voyager, yeah, yeah.

Joanne (09:51):
Yeah, my, our road trips when I was young I'm older than
you had eight track tapes.

Bill (10:05):
So you know, for me still, I remember and I feel so naive
about this one, but I wanted towrite.
I actually wanted to, and Istill do.
I still think there's at leasttwo or three good books in me.
I wanted to be a theologicalwriter.
I remember standing up on thenight before my ordination and
they had asked the people thatwere going to be ordained the
next day oh, what is the thingyou are going to do to
contribute to the benefit of thechurch beyond just your

(10:28):
ministry?
And I stood up there with mymicrophone.
I was like I'm going to writethe next great theological book
and, oh, I feel like such anidiot now because.

Joanne (10:37):
I mean— you still got time.

Bill (10:40):
Well, I had our prof, right, we had a prof that
actually came and did the um,the, the, uh, the, the service
for my ordination, and, uh, aprof that we both had in
seminary, and he said, like here, here, I'm giving you this, uh,
like this book, pen, like thewhole thing, everything you need
so that you can write, I thinkyou'd like, I think you've got
it in you kind of thing right,and that book is still in my

(11:02):
desk upstairs, unt, untouched,the pen is still in it, it has
never even been touched oropened, and like there are days
like I hear what you say, though, about the frustration of the
obstacles in between, right,because how do you not, 10 years
later now, almost look back andgo what the hell have I been
doing with my life?

Joanne (11:21):
I think you have three children, and I'm here to tell
you that once your children areout of school, they might still
live with you in their 30s, butyou're not responsible for them.

Bill (11:33):
The same way that you can open up your life to other
things, Sure, there's a darkpart of me that I don't let out
at parties that says I heard thesame thing about once your kids
aren't toddlers anymore andthen, oh, once your kids aren't
like kindergartners anymore.

Joanne (11:45):
people keep moving the goalposts over and over and over
again right, it's when they getto school and you have to drive
them around.
That's a problem.
But I wanted to say, bill, youmight not have written a great
book, but you are a greatliturgist, you write wonderful
liturgies and so you are usingyour theological education that

(12:06):
way.
And the other thing that was onyour bucket list when we were
in seminary was tasting beers.
How many did you?

Bill (12:12):
get Different beers In seminary, just in seminary.
Yes, well, we were in AtlanticCanada with lots of pubs, I did
500 unique beers from the firstday of seminary to the last day
of seminary.

Ricardo (12:25):
I was going to ask about the time frame.

Bill (12:26):
Yeah, yeah so.

Joanne (12:29):
Yeah, it wasn't like three weeks.
No, no, no, it was a longperiod of time.

Bill (12:32):
It works out to a different beer every three days,
see, and that's why I thinkthat bucket lists.

Joanne (12:39):
Really, people who are very competitive have bucket
lists right.
And, as those who know me wellknow, you know I'm not a
competitive person Like myhusband and I.
Our first date was playingsquash and I said to him do we
have to keep score?
Can't we just hit the ballaround?

Bill (12:56):
Maybe we could just see how many times?
And did he say yes, absolutelythere has to be.
No, no, he needs to keep score.

Ricardo (13:03):
Remember destination oriented yes exactly.

Bill (13:05):
Anyway, we could go all day on this one.

Ricardo (13:07):
I've always wanted to learn another language too.
I mean, I don't have a master'sin German studies, but it's
always been something to learnanother language, Even if you
just go to Montreal for a littlewhile and you think to yourself
that's such a cool thing tohave another language under your
belt and do that.
There are so many apps nowthat'll apparently help you
learn language in no time, but Icouldn't even keep up with
MyFitnessPal, let alone do that.
That's right.

(13:28):
No, I couldn't, but I meanpeople.
I take inspiration out of mybucket list from others Like
Bill, like your, your runningjourney has been quite
inspirational for me, Like Iwatched it from the beginning
when you like started and youquit smoking year marathon.

Bill (13:40):
Yeah, dropped.
I mean, I dropped 70 pounds.

Ricardo (13:42):
It's now still.
Yeah, yeah, there you go.

Bill (13:43):
It's not that low anymore, but it's getting better.

Ricardo (13:45):
I think this is like the third year in a row where
I've told you that I'm going torun with you at the next Pride
marathon and haven't Yep.

Bill (13:56):
But I think next year might be my year.
Well, they've canceled.
But here's the thing they thepolice marathon this year.

Joanne (14:02):
That'll go over well.
Yeah, I think it's aninteresting decision.

Bill (14:05):
Yep, anyhow.
The next question that came inagain under the personal
category.
You all have difficult jobs attimes.
Where do you find joy orhappiness?

Ricardo (14:17):
when you aren't at work ?
Well, when I have my dogs, ofcourse my dogs, because one of
them is like my buddy he's theolder one and he's never left my
side.
It's actually sad now, becausehe has bad legs and his whole
life he's wanted to be beside me, so if I get up to go to the
office he follows me.
So now, if I get up to go tothe office, I have to help pick
him up off the floor so he canfollow me there.
Just take it down again.
I'm like are you figuring outain a couple of symphony

(14:45):
orchestras in Calgary?
And music is my big release,because I can keep my phone in
my bag far, far away from mewhile I'm on stage and play with
a group of people that I reallyadmire and love, and so music
is definitely my escape from theprofessional world, because
it's a completely differentworld than union organizing and

(15:08):
labor relations, right.
And so at some point in time,though, I have to start like and
that was that last year I hadto tell a lot of orchestras,
sorry, I can't like, I actuallystill do have a full-time job
that I need to focus on, and soI'm happy with the Calgary Civic
Symphony and the Rocky MountainSymphony Orchestra.
I have a great group of peoplethere and we practice every week

(15:29):
, so it's been good.

Joanne (15:33):
Yeah, for me.
I mean, I actually don't dothis as much as I used to, but
something I really enjoy is atruly good meal at a good
restaurant, you know, having aleisurely dinner and with really
good food.
My husband and I are even withsome other friends.
I like to have a dinner partywhere it's good conversation.

(15:55):
I say one of my favorite thingsis God talk.
But it goes deeper than that.
It's not just talk about God ortheology, it talks about
intentional living.
So if I can have a good dinnerconversation with people who are
thoughtful and intentionalabout living, that is like the
biggest buzz for me.

(16:15):
I find a lot of joy there.
And plus also, you know,british procedural police
procedurals is also my other.
I find a lot of joy there too.
Seen them all, I think.

Ricardo (16:28):
But anyways, British police procedurals yes oh.

Joanne (16:32):
Yes, I love British television as opposed to
American television, because thepeople are more real, yeah, and
they always have a kind of awry sense of humor.
You know they're very able tolaugh at themselves, as
Canadians are too they don'ttake themselves so seriously,
but in every police drama youcan bet that there's police
corruption Like that's theinteresting thing too.

(16:55):
We were watching one the otherday and I'm like oh yeah,
there's going to be some policeofficer who's in trouble right,
as opposed to American thingswhere you know the police are.
So so is trouble right, asopposed to American things where
you know the police are so sois that.

Ricardo (17:11):
anyways, I won't go on about that.

Joanne (17:12):
God talk and police procedurals, that's my joy Good
meals and police procedurals.

Bill (17:17):
Good meals.
Don't forget that.
More recently for me, like theshift has actually been for me,
I'm starting to find joy incultivating experiences, or
maybe even like consumingexperiences.
So, funnily enough, even lastnight my wife and I were kind of
you know at the end of the daythe kids had just gone to bed
and she's kind of you knowlooking through the different
emails.
She has so many subscriptionsto so many just like random

(17:38):
things that cross her inbox andand.
And she says you know, like wecould, we could go on this
particular day that we both havefree on the calendar right now.
We could go on this day and youget a free beer and you make a
terrarium for 40 bucks.
I was like, hey, let's do it,that sounds awesome, right?
And her she's like that's waytoo expensive.

Joanne (17:57):
What are you talking about?

Bill (17:58):
That's perfect.
It's like a free beer and wemake terrarium.
She's like why do you need aterrarium?

Ricardo (18:03):
What does it matter?

Bill (18:04):
Let's just go do it.
And there's like so many likeagain.
We just for the first time ever, I think, we have season
tickets now to Vertigo Theater,like you know like even trying

(18:24):
to find, you know like let's godo a couple's painting night, or
you know like anything that wecan do.
That is actually just kind oflike a one-off, like it's not
something that you need to bemarried to for any length of
time, pun intended Except foryour wife, yeah, but whether it
be together or even just on myown, like something that you can
do once without having tocommit for all time, like
something that you don't need togo out and buy all the gear for
right, or, you know, like trainor learn a new language or

(18:48):
anything for really.
So like there's been just a lotof that kind of you know again,
like even when we went onvacation last summer through BC,
all these places where I wasgoing, like I could come back
here for just a day, right, likewouldn't want to stay here for
any length of time.
Like there's there's one trailhere that I haven't walked or
one brewery that I'd love tocheck out.
Like just something where it'slike a like just a hit and then

(19:09):
get out, kind of thing, right,so, um, I'm finding that it's
harder to settle now um, becausethere's just all these random
things that I want to do onceand then you know, just like
again, not bucket list even, butjust been there, done it and on
my way, but it does get pricey.

Joanne (19:29):
It does get pricey Costs are going up.

Bill (19:33):
All right, here's one of the tough ones.
In church we often speak ofgrace.
Is there something you canshare?
When somebody told you to giveyourself grace, Did you take
their advice?
Was it difficult, becauseyou're usually the one who says
the words give yourself grace?

Joanne (20:00):
You know, I think for me it's perhaps my kids who do
that for me, because I am veryhard on myself, like if I've
made a mistake or I've hurtsomeone's feelings, like I
really internalize it, it beingpart of a denomination and of a

(20:25):
church where demographics aresuch that people die, people
don't come to church.
And I've been at this churchfor 10 years almost now, and I
had been at a previous churchwhere it just kept growing over
10 years, and that has not beenmy experience here, and so I

(20:47):
always think I've done somethingwrong.
It's me, you know, and my kidsare the ones who are just like
Mom, no, you know, and they'rethe ones who kind of shake me
and say you're doing the rightthing, you know.
They have all kinds of reasons,like it's just in the wrong

(21:10):
place or, you know, blah, blah,blah, blah, but they're the ones
still who say you are way toohard on yourself and encourage
me to be kinder to myself, bekinder to myself, and that's I.

(21:32):
Having a kind of adultrelationship with adult children
is a real gift, you know,because when they're little
they're a lot of work, and ifthis was television you could
see Bill's face, and if this wastelevision, you could see
Bill's face.
And then they're not so muchwork anymore.
Then they're in your life asfriends and as sometimes

(21:53):
confidants, and as support andencouragement, and you get to
carry each other and that's abeautiful thing.
So I would say that's where thegrace comes.
Like I'm hardest on myself athome, they're the ones who see
it, and my kids, of course.
My husband's always good andI'm saying that because he's
sitting with headphones at theback, not just because that,

(22:16):
because he's always been acheerleader for me, which is a
great great thing.
It's a great great thing.
But having my kids, you know,say you're, you're okay, that's.
That's been a real umencouragement for me in my life
and support for me.
So so be nice to your mom,ricardo, your parents.

Bill (22:46):
I am, I think for me it's been a lot of.

Ricardo (22:47):
You're not alone in this.
It's been a challenging yearfor me at work, Very challenging
.
I've been very short staffed.
We have a fight with a large,multi-billion dollar grocer
right now Safeway.
By the way, remember, theyrolled back the wages six and a
half percent, so we're fightingwith them and it's just nonstop

(23:08):
and I find myself burning out alot of the time and burnout when
it manifests itself to eachindividual person.
It manifests itself in adifferent way for each person
and for me.
I've always been very jovialand happy and so, for the first
time, people were telling mewhat's wrong.

(23:31):
You're not yourself and I don'tunderstand it or feel it because
I'm so busy and crazy andthat's, I guess, the sign of
burnout.
And so when I started talkingabout these things with friends
or even my therapist, they'relike, yeah, you're showing the
signs of burnout and depression.
And I said, well, fuck.
And so I talk about it with mycoworkers, especially my
coworker, linda, who's the samelevel as me but operates out of

(23:53):
Edmonton.
She's like it's just, it's justwhat's happening right now.
She's like your body's notreacting to it.
But you're not alone, right,like I felt like every the whole
, the weight of the entire localwas on my shoulders and and I
was failing at every junctureand every single day.
Right, and to know that I canrely on people and, um, to be, I

(24:14):
guess I always knew that, butyou just never want to, right,
you never want to be that personthat has to ask for help
sometimes, and just to know thatwe're a team.
And so I will say my team atwork has been a real strength
for me, right, and so that,coupled with, like you know, a
great friendship group and greatfamily who are here in Calgary,

(24:35):
that it's been good.
But just reminding that I'm notalone, right?
It's okay to ask for help.
It's okay to even take a stepback and say no, I can't do that
, sorry, right?
Um, everyone's biggest fear ishaving to say no.
And then we're all surprisedwhen the answer of no is like
okay, well, let's figure out away to do it, rather than you
think you're going to get a batin the head, right, but no it's

(24:56):
not like that at all, so yeahthat's basically yeah, yeah, I.

Bill (25:01):
So I I know that if I don't answer this honestly I'm
going to get called to task forit, because about a year ago I
actually started seeing apsychologist taking some
counseling.
I was not in a really greatheadspace overall and there was
just again, like it was, a lotof stuff that was still residual

(25:22):
, even from the pandemic andfrom a pretty major like church
project loss that happened acouple of years ago and a number
of things and things weren'tfeeling right professionally,
personally, kind of all over themap.
And I sat for a very long timein front of a computer, days in
front of a computer actually,where I had filled out the
application form to actually goin and talk to someone, and then

(25:44):
I closed it and said no, andthen no, I got to do this, I'm
not okay.
And then fill it out again andthen no, can't do it.
And then you know, the next dayagain fill it out again and
finally just like click, submitand said like whatever will be
will be, and and so much of ourconversations.
When I, when I am in talking toher and she listens to this
podcast, so she'll either cheerloudly that I'm doing this or I

(26:07):
know what we're going to talkabout the next time that I see
her.
But so much of what we talkabout is the fact that not even
that I am hard on myself, butthat I am so deficit-focused or
deficit-based in my focus onmyself that I am borderline in
an abusive relationship withmyself.
And so the constant question islike we will talk about

(26:32):
scenarios, things what's goingon at work, what's going on at
home, what's happening in yourlife?
And we're constantly comingback to like you give grace to
so many other people, you haveexpectations for so many other
people that are so much kinderthan your expectations for
yourself, for the stuff you tellyourself, for the things you
believe about yourself, and somuch of that work is really

(26:56):
difficult work to unpack, tostruggle with whether or not you
were ever enough, or whether,or whether failures are actually
failures.
Right, that's like that'sdifficult, difficult stuff to
unpack and, interestingly enough, so much of it ties back to,
you know, my childhood andmessages that I, you know I had

(27:19):
understood growing up, about whoI was and where my place was in
the world.
And you know I joke a lot about,you know, expecting to
disappoint people at a rate thatthey can handle, in part
because, you know, I expect todisappoint people, right, and so
much of the work that I've hadto work on over the last year,

(27:41):
so much of the progress I'vemade over the last year, has
been around finding ways to failand be okay with it, or to
reframe even what I think lookslike failure at the beginning in
a way that actually at leastmakes space to recognize that my

(28:02):
opinion of myself is likelylimited to me and not shared by
anyone beyond right, which issimilar in some ways to what you
talk about too, right.
So, in the absence of havingadult children, who will tell me
?
to you know my kids still tellme I'm great, but I usually say

(28:24):
you're 12.
What the hell do you know?
But, in the absence, like beingable to recognize.
Whose voice is it that'sactually talking in my head,
right?
Is it my dad's?
If so, probably not.
The authority on you knowwhether or not um.

(28:44):
I deserve grace, right, um, and,and.
So that's been, that's been areally long, hard journey that
I'm not done by any stretch ofthe imagination.
Um, uh, it's been.
It's been difficult torecognize just how um twisted my
ability to give myselfpermission to be good enough.

(29:05):
Um really is Um, and it impactsso many aspects of my life.
Um, and it has also impacted somany of my and so many aspects
of my life as I try to changethose patterns as well, right,
and change those behaviors.
Um.
So, if nothing else, let itnever be said that I was not
honest on this podcast.

(29:26):
Um and uh, and, and like that'snot easy to.
It's not actually easy to talkabout because, like I'm still
aware, even like to this day,the reason I kept closing that
screen is like, for me, it feltlike an admission of failure to
ask for help, right, um, yeah,to say I'm not okay felt like,

(29:48):
well then, what the hell's wrongwith you?
Right, because people got itworse than you do, brother, and
suck it up, right, yeah.

Joanne (29:58):
I mean, I think we all tend to do that.
It's like there's lots ofpeople who are starving.
When I was young, it wasthere's children starving in
Africa.
eat your dinner, kind of thing,but it's still your life you
know, and when you're in a roleof leadership, particularly when
you're a spiritual leader ofsome kind, people don't expect

(30:24):
you to be vulnerable andquestioning and you know, and
the expectation and I think wehave that on ourselves is that
you're going to show some kindof strength and be the
non-anxious presence and allthese things that we're trained
to do and ultimately we're justhuman beings.

Bill (30:45):
Yeah, but I also think there's a piece to it Like I was
trying to explain it tosomebody a few months ago
actually that everybody wants toknow that their minister loves
them.
Right, Right, Everybody wantsto know that their minister
loves them.

Joanne (30:55):
Right.

Bill (30:56):
Right.
And yet we also know that thepeople in our lives that we love
are also the people that whensomething happens to them, it
hurts us too, right, when theystruggle, we struggle Like.
Love is opening yourself up toall of that shared vulnerability
and mutual concern for eachother, right.

(31:17):
And so when you get to thatplace where, like I will say, I
love the people that I care, thepeople that I serve in all of
our churches, and when you openyourself up to that, you have to
deal with the same grief, loss,pain, heartache, betrayal, like

(31:38):
all of that stuff that playsout in the same way that they do
, and the question always tendsto at least be on the surface or
around the edges of who'staking care of the caregiver,
right In the middle of it all.
Right, if the expectation isthat you're providing this care

(31:59):
and support and concern forfolks, who's providing that care
and support and concern for you?
So I mean, my psychologist, atour last thing, said don't you
think everybody should be intherapy?

Ricardo (32:09):
Right, I don't feel bad for therapists, right?

Joanne (32:12):
Well, there's a whole thing about right now about more
people are in therapy than everbefore and we're more mentally
ill and struggling and there'salmost this backlash to it Like
actually all this introspectionhas not been that good for us.

Bill (32:26):
I'm not sure I agree with that necessarily.

Joanne (32:28):
I'm just saying I'm not sure I do either, but there's
this kind of backlash to therapyLike maybe, anyways, we won't
go there.

Bill (32:36):
But I think it's interesting because, like, there
was a time, I remember, whenpeople said, wow, like cases of
domestic violence seem to be onthe rise, and it's like they're
not actually on the rise, peopleare just able to talk about it.
Now, right, and I think that'sthe same kind of thing when you
look at questions around mentalhealth, right, oh for sure, like
more men are in therapy now, ormore men are, mental health is

(33:00):
on the rise because more men arein therapy and blah, blah, blah
.
Well, no, men are actually nowsafe to actually go do that
without.
You know, sorry, languageCompanies and benefit plans are
increasing therapy benefits.

Ricardo (33:11):
I mean, I think it's Bell that just makes it
unlimited now and my employergives us like $5,000 a year now
for towards a therapist.
Just because they understandthe nexus between, like, what we
do for work, the constantstruggle, and you know, the work
that you do as spiritualleaders and what I do as a union
leader is not that muchdifferent in that we're helping
people in their most vulnerable,painful times.

Joanne (33:33):
Right, yes.

Ricardo (33:34):
For me, it's like you know job loss is the worst thing
that could happen to someoneafter 30 years at a grocery
store, right?
And so I have to sit there andhelp them through it, with very
little to give them, but withvery real stakes.
Exactly yeah, exactly Right.
And so just saying yes, yes,yes, yes, yes, all the time, and
saying, yes, I'll help you, yes, I'll help you, with no real
plan in the moment and justdoing your best with how you've

(33:56):
been trained wears down onsomeone completely, and so, like
, all of this needs to be givento somebody, and so my therapist
often tells me that she sees atherapist too.

Joanne (34:04):
Yeah.

Ricardo (34:04):
That person's called my grand therapist, apparently.

Joanne (34:06):
Yeah, there you go.

Ricardo (34:10):
So it's a circle of life.

Joanne (34:13):
Yeah, right, yeah.

Ricardo (34:14):
But you're right, bill, it's like people are able to
talk about it.
More life, yeah, right, yeah.
But you're right, bill, it'slike people are able to talk
about it.
More Men, men's mental healthis, I see.
I see movements and picturesand videos all the time about
like two perfectly straight menthat cuddle on a couch and show
each other affection.
Because it's just, it should bea natural thing.

Joanne (34:30):
Well, those cuddle parties, right?
Yeah, they used to have thosebefore COVID, I think.

Ricardo (34:35):
I think the systematic dismantling of toxic masculinity
and those gender norms andstereotypes has gone a long way
to get men to open up.
I think everyone to open up andbe more vulnerable and be more
real with how they're feeling.
Like when you were kids, evenas a female too, they would stop

(34:55):
crying, right, don't cry.
And so we should encouragechildren to cry and grownups to
cry.

Joanne (35:01):
Oh yeah, absolutely Right.
So, yep, that's, absolutelytrue.

Bill (35:06):
I'm going to shift into the professional now and then
we'll break and we'll get acouple of them out of the way
and then we'll move into theintermission and then come back
to finish it up.
I was thinking a bit aboutbecause we're talking about
ministry and union organizingand showing up in public ways

(35:26):
that aren't always easy, whetherit's church life or union life,
community life.
All of us have jobs that ask alot of us and sometimes they
pull us in directions we didn'texpect.
So there's a verse in Micahthat grounds so much at least of
what I try to do.
My grand aspiration, if therewas to be a scripture attached
to it, is what does the Lordrequire of you?
Right, seek justice, love,kindness and walk humbly with

(35:49):
God right.
And it sounds beautiful and Iwill probably, at some point in
time, end up tattooing it onmyself as a testament to my
failure, but anyone who's triedto live it knows that it's also
really quite messy.
It doesn't matter what you doin life.
It takes guts and humility, andsometimes it means navigating

(36:10):
systems that weren't built forjustice or mercy in the first
place.
Especially your work, ricardolet's be honest right the first
place, especially your work,Ricardo, let's be honest, right.
So I wanted to kind of duckinto a couple of these questions
that are intersectional in someways, because they also emerged
, I think, out of specificepisodes that we've done this
year.
And the first one is actually areally fascinating one because,

(36:34):
Joanne, you weren't actuallyhere for this episode last month
, but one of the questions thatemerged from it we may not have
actually answered in our timelast month and I'm not sure if
we'll be able to answer ittonight, but in the spirit of
honoring the question, let'sgive it a go anyway.
What would a non-binary Godlook like.

Joanne (36:54):
Well, first of all, god is non-binary, right, like
there's no.
God is queer, yes, like in mymind, completely right, because
all the iterations of humanityare contained in God, right?
Yep, I mean we would believethat, like, if God is the
creative force behind it, thenevery kind of human being God

(37:15):
has had within God's self.
So the queerest of all, yeah,so here's the thing about God to
me is a queer God is not a Godwho erases your sexuality or

(37:35):
your gender or your humanexpression or anything like that
, but celebrates it with you.
So the queer God delights inevery aspect of humanity and
every way we struggle and everyway we overcome, every way we

(37:58):
express ourselves, all the lovethat we give and the ways that
we give it.
God delights in that and thatyou know.
If you want to say a non-binaryGod or a queer God, that is how
God relates to humanity to me,relates to humanity to me.

(38:21):
There can't be in a God who hascreated this beautiful plethora
of human experience andexpression, there can't be
favorites, there can't be.
This is the best expression ofhumanity, right?
Also, this queer God grieves atboundaries that separate us, at

(38:41):
us trying to fit ourselves intoboxes because we want to be
acceptable, of finding differentways to believe.
We're not good enough.
This God grieves theexpressions of humanity that
actually make us smaller, notbigger, that diminish love

(39:02):
instead of expanding love.
So I like to say that God'slove is promiscuous, meaning
that it's overflowing, it goeseverywhere and it doesn't in any
way, you know, discriminate.
So that's what I would havesaid if I was here last month.

Ricardo (39:26):
God is most definitely Aslan off of Chronicles of
Narnia.
Okay, no, god is.

Joanne (39:34):
Deep magic.
Deep magic.

Ricardo (39:40):
I think every time we see good in humanity and good
things happen, that's where Godis Right.
Um, it's funny.
Um, somebody was.
I was at the gas station justdown the street, the shell, and
there was a um, a less fortunateperson I don't want to say they
were unhoused was lessfortunate person picking through
the garbage can and getting thebottles right and I had like

(40:01):
eight or five, seven or eightbottles in the back of my truck.
So I said I picked them all outand I said here you go, have
them.
He's like oh, thank you so much.
And somebody's like why are yougiving that to them?
Like a complete stranger comesto me eight bottles at 10 cents
each.
You're worried about my 80cents.
And I'm thinking to myself.
The first thing I said like whydo you care?

Joanne (40:20):
Yeah.

Ricardo (40:21):
And so he says well, what do you know what he was
going to do with that money?
I was like I don't care, Idon't even care what you're
doing with your money.
Exactly, I'm pretty sure thegoing rate for any drug is not
80 cents, right.

Joanne (40:35):
You can't even get a chocolate bar for 80 cents.

Ricardo (40:37):
Exactly.
And I think to myself likethat's not God, right?
Right, the people that give ofthemselves and the good things
that happen in the world, right,that's God.
And when people go that extramile and do something out of

(40:57):
their comfort zone or just doinggood, is the most natural human
thing that I can see peopledoing.
And seeing the effort thatpeople have to put in to be
awful to one another, the effortthat's being put in being awful
to one another south of theborder, the effort that's being
put in right here in Alberta,with town halls over separating
and, and you know, restrictingbooks and all that kind of stuff

(41:20):
that's happening, and that theeffort that gets put in is not
where God is.
Because you can see and feel,um, the I don't even want to say
evil, but you can see and feelthat it's not.
It's not what.
What even those people wouldhave been taught in church,
right, I mean, what even thosepeople would have been taught in
church, right, I mean, unlessthey went to Westboro Baptist
Church.
That's a different thing.

(41:42):
But so, yeah, that's what I feelGod is like.
I don't, I don't ever pictureGod as like even a human form.
That's why I said Aslan in thebeginning.
I just think that God is anentity, that that just travels
through us and within us andsurrounds us, and when we do
good and when we do the easything, which is just being kind
and loving one another, that'swhere God is.

Joanne (42:03):
Expanding love.

Ricardo (42:04):
That's what God is right.
Yeah, that's the.
It's the energy that flowsthrough us when we're, when
we're doing good and we'refeeling good, right.

Bill (42:11):
Yeah, I mean you say Aslan , I would say, like on the
Simpsons, God was the only fivefingered character ever.
But uh, um, I mean, for me, thechallenge, the great challenge,
um, in all of it has alwaysbeen that, uh, um.
Not that I'm trying to beargumentative at all, um, but um
, you know, even even in themidst of the the, the misery and

(42:33):
the hatred and the anger andthe violence and just the
shameful inhuman treatmenthappening south of the border
and honestly, we don't even needto look south of the border
it's happening up here too.
Right, god is there.
Right, it may not be of God,but even in that, god is there,

(42:56):
right.
So it's this whole kind of messyidea that, whether you be the
purest heart in the world or anorange-tinned American president
or anything in between, you'reheld in God's grace regardless.

(43:18):
Right, it doesn't mean that thetrash you spout is godly or
divine in any way, but youyourself are still a beloved
child of God, right, and it'sthis idea that you know you hate
that trans kid.
Well, spoiler alert, god lovesthat trans kid and loves you

(43:41):
even in your hatred, and wantsbetter for you than this, right,
and for me, every time I landin that space.
That is the most challengingpart of it all for me, right?
Is you know, like thecommandment to love your enemy
is challenging, like reallychallenging, but to recognize

(44:06):
that even God loves your enemy.

Joanne (44:09):
But that's not a love, that is without, not condition,
but without accountability.

Bill (44:15):
Yes, right, yes.

Joanne (44:17):
So you can and I agree.
So if God is in everything,which I totally agree with that,
is God grieving in that momentwith you?
Is God angry at that momentwith you?
Is God loving and joyful inthat moment with you?
Yeah, and to say you know God,we are all the beloved of God.

(44:37):
I believe that too.
I mean, I completely believethat.
But that doesn't dismiss any ofus from accountability for our
actions towards other people.

Bill (44:44):
Absolutely right.
No, absolutely right.

Joanne (44:46):
Before God either, right , god's not like.
Oh you hate that trans kid, Ilove you, it doesn't matter.

Bill (44:53):
Like we say, yeah, it's not, the kingdom is yours.

Joanne (44:55):
We can say unconditional love, and there is
unconditional love, but there isnot lack of accountability in
how we harm other people.

Bill (45:03):
Yeah, I would say that we have sanitized love a bit in our
society to be almost thispermissive kind of sense of
almost enabling.
Right and realistically, thatis actually that's kind of a
concupiscence that happens asthe result of mortality.
Right and realistically, thatis actually that's kind of a
concupiscence that happens asthe result of mortality.
Right, we bend the virtuoustowards less virtuous kind of

(45:26):
expressions.
Love can be like love or it canbe obsession.
It can be enabling great harm.
Some of the stories you wouldeven hear out of 12-step
programs right Around, like whydidn't you intercede and get
your loved?
Well, because I loved him somuch.
I didn't want to, you know,destroy that relationship or
cause them further harm or makethem feel bad about themselves.

(45:49):
But like, at some point in timeyour love needs to be enough to
.
You know, like get in the ringand put on some gloves and, you
know, fight a couple of rounds,kind of love, right, and so, by
all means, like, if we could getback to like a gritty, you know
, at least quasi sharp-toothedlove like that would probably be

(46:09):
a good thing for all of us,right?
A love that isn't conditionalbut does put a call on us at the
same time.

Joanne (46:18):
Yes, it calls to our better selves, right?
Yeah?

Ricardo (46:21):
And back to the original question about God
being binary or non-binary.
I think that a non-binary Godwould fight for breaking down
the patriarchy or themale-dominated tone of most
organized Christian religions.
Right, like I saw Pope, the newPope, leo Leo, he said no way

(46:43):
to women priests.
Right, he said Jesus hung outwith 12 men and so he's going to
be men only.
It's like me.
From an economic standpoint,I'm like there isn't exactly a
huge lineup of people going tothe priesthood right Well not
only then that the firstdisciples were supported by rich
women.
Exactly right.

Joanne (47:02):
Christianity became the dominant religion.
It is because of women convertsto Christianity, who raised
their children as Christians.
So that's all.
And there were way more than 12people around Jesus.
Anyway, I won't get into thatnow, sorry, ricardo.

Ricardo (47:19):
But I was also just saying, like you know, I love
the United Church for the factthat there are so many women in
ministry, so many people in thequeer community in ministry, but
there are still so many, evenlike Protestant and evangelical
denominations.
We're still so heavily maledominated and the mothers with
sometimes like 12 children areto be at home and doing their

(47:41):
thing, right, and it's just so,I think, breaking down those
barriers.
I would love to see a situationwhere women are dominating in
the church and in a lot ofChristian circles, to prove a
non-binary God and to prove aGod that there is no show of
force or there is no proof thatthe show of force comes from the

(48:03):
man's mouth.
Right, it's just.
It needs to be more in thatsense.

Bill (48:07):
Parenthetically.
Going back to the bucket listquestion, I too would like to be
supported by rich women.

Joanne (48:13):
I used to always say I would like to be dependently
wealthy.
I used to always say I wouldlike to be dependently wealthy.

Bill (48:20):
So there was a question that was asked that I'm going to
tag an additional question onto, probably because I disagree
with the answer to the question.
But anyhow, the question waswhy does church have to be
comfortable?
To which I'm going to add doeschurch have to be comfortable?

(48:42):
To which I'm going to add doeschurch have to be comfortable?
But I think there is some valuein talking about comfort or
levels of comfortability in thechurch, because I don't think
any of us aspires to really makechurch an uncomfortable place,
really make church anuncomfortable place.
But certainly I would observethat, yeah, there does seem to

(49:02):
be at least some tension or somepressure around the.
I come here to feel good, Icome here to be entertained, I
come here to—.

Joanne (49:13):
Have tea with my friends .

Bill (49:14):
Well and be validated that my viewpoint is good enough,
right, and certainly we alwayshold that intention with all of
the prophetic tradition and thenature of our world, and so if
we can talk a bit about churchand comfortable and sort of what
it is that we think, but maybelet's let Ricardo go first

(49:38):
because I know you and I couldlean heavily into this, and
Ricardo has some experience in acouple of traditions.

Ricardo (49:48):
Actually, Well, that's what I'll reflect on in my
answer, in the saying that Idon't think church has to be
comfortable.
I think church has to bewelcoming.
But I think a lot of peoplelove the routine of church.
And you know, growing up in theCatholic tradition it was
always we went on church at fiveo'clock mass every Saturday and

(50:11):
went for dinner afterwards.
And my parents still go tochurch every day if they can and
you know they'll go for thiscelebration and that celebration
.
It's just so routine, like theyknow what to expect when they
go for it.
So mom's like, oh, I'm going togo for Easter Vigil Mass this
year.
She knows exactly what toexpect.
So I think a change in routinewould really that's

(50:32):
uncomfortable enough for a lotof people, right, a change in
like preaching, a change in thetone and the flavor of services
is really an uncomfortable thing.
And then we dip into churcheslike ours that talk about very
heavy, heavy topics, very heavy,heavy, relevant social topics,

(50:54):
which make a lot of peopleuncomfortable.
What I love about this churchis that everybody who doesn't
like feeling comfortable aroundthose topics just sits there and
smiles through it.
There's never a, there's neversome revolution of people just
getting up and walking out thatI've seen yet.
Right so.

Joanne (51:07):
Happens in the parking lot.

Ricardo (51:10):
I guess.
But but that's what I think Ithink a break in routine for
people, because a lot of that'sthe part about church that I
think a lot of people in the newgeneration just don't want to
do anymore, right, like theydon't want to have to, like put
their Sunday best on and go tochurch on Sunday.
They want a church that's fluidand happens on Tuesday
afternoon or does differentthings throughout the community,

(51:34):
and I think that's theuncomfortable part of a lot of
of Christian uh uh, church goersand um, yeah, I think I think
we're doing the right thing here, right, even though I don't
come here on Sundays very often.
You're one of those young people, yeah one of those C and E
Christian Church Christmas andEaster.

(51:55):
Christmas and Easter yeah, itdoesn't matter.
One of those C and E?
Christian yeah, that's right.
Church Christmas and Easter.

Joanne (51:58):
Christmas and Easter.
Yeah, it doesn't matter.
I always say you're alwayswelcome.
We don't take attendance.

Ricardo (52:03):
We used to.
When I first came to McDougal,we had the folders.
Yeah, no, I know.

Joanne (52:07):
I know.
And then I asked what do we dowith this information?
And I was told nothing.
And I'm like then let's collectit.
Why do we?
Yeah, anyway, I think we haveto make a big distinction
between the church writ largeand our community, right.

(52:29):
So, like Bonhoeffer is the onewho said, the church is only the
church when it is for others,right.
And so there's this great lineI'm sure we've all heard it
before that the church is meantto comfort the afflicted and
afflict the comfortable right.
So I think that if the churchwrit large, in other words, like

(52:56):
our denomination or otherChristians, aren't in the
business of trying to redeem theworld, they've lost the plot,
right.
And whether redeeming the worldis through deeper relationships
in the church or with ourfamilies, multiplying love,
expanding the table I love theeveryone has a place at the

(53:16):
table idea If we're not doingthat, then we've lost the plot.
We're not the church anymore.
We're, you know, a communityorganization, which there's
nothing wrong with those either.
You know, church is thatthere's also a difference

(53:41):
between the church and whattheir purpose is, and spiritual
practice.
I think attending church issometimes a spiritual practice,
in other words, it's somethingthat you do in order to give
yourself strength to take on thebigger challenges of life,
right?
So I don't think that churchnecessarily has to be.
You know, every week you goaway.
I remember there was a ministerand I would say to them they

(54:02):
probably say this about me too,because I tend to go on justice
issues a lot but they go likewhy do you make me feel so
guilty all the time?
You make me feel so guilty andhe goes.
It's, you know, it's not mesaying this.
This is the gospel, right?
This is the gospel of JesusChrist.
I think it's important to keepthose redeem the world before us
.
When you're out in the worldand someone says how come you're

(54:27):
giving this?
Do you know where it's spent?
That you can respond and say Idon't Giving human dignity to
someone.
I'm the same way.
I don't care what they spend iton, it's their choice.
I'm not gonna be paternalisticabout other people or look down
on them, but church is alsospiritual practice, in other
words.
So you come, you sing, you pray,you commune with each other,

(54:49):
you find strength and hopefullyin the world, as part of the
church writ large, as part ofthe church writ large, you make
a difference in your lifesomehow.
So I think, as leaders in thechurch, it's our job to provide
a place where people belong,right.

(55:11):
Number one you belong here.
It's very hard to feel like youbelong somewhere if you are
constantly being told you're notenough right or that we need to
be better at this or we need todo that.
So having a church that'scomfortable, where people belong
, is really, really important.
Building community is reallyimportant.
The community of Christ,supporting each other, caring

(55:33):
each other all these things arecomfortable, but we also have to
know that it's our job as thechurch to be the body of Christ,
the hands and feet of Christ inthe world, and there is a part
of our lives and our communitythat needs to take on oppression

(55:56):
and the issues of our day rightthe issues of our day.
You know, becoming an affirmingministry here was not always
easy.
Like it wasn't easy, right?
There's people who left thechurch when we became affirming
people that have questions youknow, like why—I remember one
question was why do the gaypeople have to hold hands in
church?

(56:17):
I never—I don't do that and I'mlike, but nobody would look
askance at you if you did, doyou know?
So there would be thesequestions that people would have
, which are honest questionsthat you have to talk about.
So I don't think we should hidefrom difficult topics.
I really believe that thechurch is the place where you
can discuss anything and shoulddiscuss all the experience that

(56:41):
humanity has, should be able tocome into the church and have a
conversation and a Godperspective on it.
But it's also I think we haveto remember this is a spiritual
practice for people to come tochurch on Sunday and if they
don't feel comfortable.
Cs Lewis said church shouldfeel like an old shoe, like

(57:04):
there should be a comfort to itwhere people are able to say in
their life you know what?
I know?
God loves me, and so now I'mgoing to figure out how to love
you more deeply too.

Bill (57:15):
CS Lewis never trained for a marathon.
Old shoe is the worst thing youcan wear, okay, but yeah, I
mean like my constant strugglealways that keeps me up.
Sometimes, depending on whatthe scriptures are, what the
theme is for any given Sunday isalways finding that place in

(57:37):
the middle of.
People need to be able to findthemselves in the gospel, right,
it needs to include them or ithas nothing to do with them.
And my belief is always, likethese are stories and
understandings of God and God'schurch, that everybody does have

(58:01):
a place at the table, right.
So I always try to make surethat people understand like.
This story is for you, whetheryou're on top of the world and
you are successful and you knowyou're six figures a year and
life is great and you don't havea care in the world.
It's also for you if, like youare struggling to put food on

(58:21):
the table or you just got thatbrand new diagnosis that you
were not expecting um or um, youknow, like you, you just lost
this beloved family member.
Like, like, whatever your story, wherever you are, um, um, like
this, this is your story, right, and this is, this is a part of
like you are a part of thisfamily, and a part of this

(58:41):
narrative, and and and thisgospel is, is for you as well.
Right, um, so, like, um, the.
The struggle is always yes,like, like.
This is for you if you aregrieving, um, this is for you if

(59:07):
you are living in poverty.
Part of the work, though, is tostop being okay with people
living in poverty.
Right, six figures, not a carein the world.
Sitting, you know, two pewsback or two chairs back from the
person who you know has burntout all their uses at the food
bank and is wondering where foodis going to come from.
The message should landdifferently, and it really needs

(59:27):
to like.
It needs to land differently,and it's not about guilt, but,
like in a lot of cases, guiltreally is kind of the huh like.
I'm feeling this for reasonsthat I know about my life.

Joanne (59:41):
Right, it's the accountability thing.

Bill (59:43):
It's not meant to be a shaming thing, and that's part
of the struggle, right, is thatdiscomfort is also the only way
we move.
The only way we change ourbehavior is if it's
uncomfortable, and so theconstant tension is always how
do you move hearts graciouslyright, without leaving anyone

(01:00:10):
behind or having anyone feellike this is no longer home for
them?
Right, and that is not easywork to do, but I know, do I be.

(01:00:34):
I'm going to say it leveragetheir attendance or their
participation in the communityto stamp out their discomfort.
Right, if we're going to godown this road, like you said,
right, when McDougall wasworking to become an affirming
ministry, some people said, like, if this is the road we're
going down, we're leaving.
Right on down, we're leavingright, and that kind of practice

(01:00:57):
to me, has always been the mostenraging practice out of all of
them.
Right, I fully expect dissentingvoices, I fully expect a
diversity of opinions.
I fully expect that noteveryone has to agree all the
time, right?
But when your answer is thiscommunity that I have been a

(01:01:19):
part of for decades, that I'vesat with these people and
greeted these people andcelebrated marriages and
baptisms and birthdays and thehighs and lows of life together
and suddenly, over this, I amcutting and running.
There is something reallybroken in that.
Not that you're broken, brokenin that, not that you're broken,

(01:01:42):
you're human.
But that behavior is broken andis not again, is not of God,
right?
So the challenge for me alwaysends up being the discomfort is
going to come.
Church will never, always becomfortable, and I remember
hearing on the very first day ofseminary in my very first class
, like when you get there, don'tchange anything in a year
because it'll make peopleuncomfortable, right.

(01:02:03):
And I was going, like the placethat I went to, the person
there before me was a woman whohad been there for 19 years, was
old enough to be my grandmother, right, had just like the list
of things that were different tobegin with.
It was like I've already failed.
Like tell me not to changeanything for a year.
I don't wear skirts, I don'twear high heels, I don't right

(01:02:24):
you should have.

Ricardo (01:02:25):
That would have been interesting.
I highly recommend it.
Skirts are Well.
Thank you.

Bill (01:02:28):
I might try it out because my legs look better now than
they did two years ago, butcertainly like somebody came in
on the very first day even andsaid you might as well quit now,
you'll never be her, um, and itwas just kind of this whole
like man, like how do you notchange anything?
How do you not ever make anyoneuncomfortable when um like

(01:02:55):
that's, that's just kind of the,the nature of like transition
in general, right, and for agospel that is constantly moving
and calling us to newunderstanding as our times
change and as the issues of ourday change, how can you not
constantly have to reevaluateand kind of go like I'm here but
I need to get to over here, andthat requires me to actually
let go of some things or take onsome things or adapt to some

(01:03:17):
things in a way that areintended to expand God's love
and be more life-giving than theway things currently are right.

Joanne (01:03:26):
I think what is really interesting like if we take the
whole affirming thing, therewere people who said you know,
I'm not comfortable with this,I'm going to go someplace else.
I think we have to be okay withthat because we can't have a
church that tries to keepeverybody right.
I mean, I went to a churchbefore and they would say how
can?
We don't sing old hymns.

(01:03:46):
And the minister would say youknow, there's a church down the
street that sings a lot of oldhymns.
I think you might like it therebetter.
And I think you got to be ableto say that.
But what has been the joy of theaffirming process which was
probably what are we seven oreight years into being affirming
is not the people who left.
I don't mourn the people wholeft.
I know that there are people inthe community who wish they
were still here.

(01:04:07):
What has been the great joy isto see the people in the
congregation who have learned somuch about themselves, about
their families, like the numberof people in the church who have
learned so much aboutthemselves, about their families
, like the number of people inthe church who have gay kids or
they have trans grandkids andall of a sudden they felt like
it was okay that they could comeout of the closet too.

(01:04:28):
That was a real gift.
It was a real gift to havepeople embrace this we're an
affirming ministry and have itas a point of pride instead of
wondering about if we were doingthe right thing.
So sometimes in these verydifficult things, when you're in
church and you're wondering isthis the right way to go, should
this happen, and you expend alot of political capital as

(01:04:49):
leaders, sometimes by going intothese difficult places, eight
years down the road you know itwas the right thing and it
becomes a part of the communitythat has enriched it and made it
a place where everyone belongsor at least we have that before
us as what we have said.

(01:05:10):
We want to be.
So you know it's okay if peoplewant to, like Protestants,
break up all the time.
Protest is right in there.

Bill (01:05:20):
Splinter groups everywhere , yep, yep.

Joanne (01:05:23):
So people can go, it's true, and I don't think we
should lose community withpeople because they decide
they're not coming on Sundaymorning anymore.
A lot of the people who leftthe church still have really
good friends here, yep, and Ithink that's a great thing.

Bill (01:05:36):
It goes back to that.
A lot of people who left thechurch are still really plugged
into everything that's happening.
Right, they may not be herephysically on a Sunday morning.
But they are just as connected.

Joanne (01:05:44):
Right.
Well, you know, when you getthe letter from someone who's
been in the church for 50 yearsand it's like a whole letter of
I can't believe we're doing this, this is so not the gospel and
all that kind of stuff, andyou're a minister who's been
here two years and you're like,oh my God, what have I done to
this community?
It's going to be ripped apartand it's going to fail and it's
going to you know, all thatstuff that I do where my kids

(01:06:06):
have to say, mom, you're doingthe right thing.
You know, when we say God'stime, is it a different rhythm?
You start to understand thatwhen you've been with a
community for 10 years it's adifferent rhythm and we have to.
If what we're doing ismultiplying love in the world,
we have to believe and persiston that path, because living a

(01:06:33):
diminished love or one that isbounded by, you know, convention
and stuff, will not get us to aplace of true joy.

Bill (01:06:47):
Feels like a good place to stop and refill our drinks and
refill our refreshments andsnacks, and we will return after
a brief intermission to carryon with the rest of our
questions.
And we're back after theintermission.

(01:07:33):
We're going to jump right backinto the questions.
We've got two more on theprofessional category and then
we're going to jump into thelast section of the day, First
one being what's one thing thatyou wish you had explored more
before you either went intoministry or union organizing?

Ricardo (01:07:48):
I have a real love for cars.
Like my fondest memory everyyear is going to the Calgary
International Auto and TruckShow with my dad and I would sit
in every vehicle, pick up everybrochure and God love that man.
He's got the patience of asaint, because from a little kid
until today, and even with myex-partner, I would be like we

(01:08:11):
have to go to the auto show.
We have to go to the auto showand Alex couldn't have cared
about that.
I don't know, but he did itanyway.
And Alex couldn't have caredabout that, I don't know, but he
did it anyway.
So at one point in time, when Iwas in grade 12 or just
graduated from high school, Iapplied for mechanics at not at
State, I actually applied inSaskatoon for some weird reason
and I got in and I thought, oh,this is my chance, I can fix.
And I always wanted to be amechanic and, like whatever I

(01:08:31):
did for my full-time career, Ialways wanted to be able to fix
my own cars.
And I didn't do that.

Joanne (01:08:37):
I was going to say how'd that work out for you?

Ricardo (01:08:38):
I didn't do that I can still.
I can do the basics.
I can, you know, change the oil, change the tire.
But if you ask me to change thebrake pads and all that stuff,
I can't.
But I still have an affinityfor cars and I still love cars
and I think maybe my callingmight've been like or marketing.
Maybe I'd have been a good usedcar salesman.
I don't know, where myautomobile passion lay.

(01:08:59):
But no, at one point in time Iwanted to do, and a bunch of my
uncles are mechanics, they ownshops and so I think I just grew
up in that culture.
But that's one regret that Ididn't do before.

Joanne (01:09:09):
I took the job that I did now yeah.
So obviously no wrong answers,but to clarify something about
our which we wish we'd explored,I think that is more of the
question.

Bill (01:09:22):
Or something that you wish you knew more about when you
entered into the field.
Oh, sorry, I'll answer.
Totally fine, because the nextquestion is actually Okay, so
you can cut that out.

Ricardo (01:09:30):
I'm not going to cut that out.

Joanne (01:09:31):
That's not how this works.

Ricardo (01:09:32):
Yeah there are no wrong answers, but.

Joanne (01:09:34):
I just wanted to be clear.

Ricardo (01:09:35):
Okay, sorry what I knew , what I wanted to learn about
my job before I did it.
So what's one thing you wish youhad explored more before you
went into, yeah, what the actualconsequences of 40 years of
conservative rule in Albertameant for unions.

(01:09:56):
For me, when I joined socialjustice work and you know, I was
going to university for socialwork to do, to be a social
worker and when I was exploringmy life as a union activist, I
didn't realize how much law wascentered around the rights of
workers to earn a living and to,and, and how much of that law

(01:10:21):
actually worked against workersright, and how much of it, um,
like we lose.
Uh, how much governments willpivot to ensure that some people
are just kept poor.
Uh, and it's completely up tothe government in power that

(01:10:41):
will make the laws on how yourwork life is.
And you can just see it inCanada, where we have I mean
aside from the US, but in Canada, where we have a decentralized
form of labor relations, just inthe province next door in
British Columbia.
The rights that workers have inBritish Columbia, the rights
that workers now have inManitoba, the rights that we had

(01:11:01):
under just four years of NDPrule, which were rolled back in
the first session of legislatureby Jason Kenney, shows you how
political this job is and how.
I wanted to just be in thetrenches, organize workers,
stand up for the revolution andbig strike and this and that,
but it's not actually.

(01:11:21):
They make it really hard to dothat kind of stuff that you see
ideologically and in power, soyeah.

Joanne (01:11:28):
It's really interesting.
I was in a conversation withsomeone once and they were
talking about someone in theirfamily who worked at a pool, but
it was, you know, not a publicpool, it was the private pool,
so the wages were a lot worse.
And he was talking about thecompany.
You know, they don't have topay as much.
And I I just said, is that agood thing or a bad thing?

Ricardo (01:11:46):
Like it was hard to know and he goes he goes.

Joanne (01:11:48):
I guess it depends on if you're the company or the
employee, and that's, that'sactually the reality.

Ricardo (01:11:53):
Who are you?
The employee or the company?

Joanne (01:11:55):
Yeah, like is it a good thing or a bad thing?
Yeah, I mean, I worked in achurch before I became a
minister, but I came out of theevangelical tradition where the
ministers could do anything.
You know essentially what theywanted.
It could be accomplished ifthey chose to.

(01:12:20):
Most of the ministers we hadwhen I was young were not that
kind, but ministers arecertainly much more on a
pedestal than they are in theUnited Church.
And then I started working at achurch and I remember thinking
the minister there, he would gointo a meeting and he would say,
let's say it was music, it wasa music meeting, it was nothing,

(01:12:41):
not the board or anything.
And he'd go well, I mean, youcan do whatever you want.
And I used to say to him don'tgive your power away.
No, you don't want them to dowhatever you want.
There's a vision, a dream.
We got to stick to that kind ofthing.
And he would say we haveinfluence but not power as
United Church ministers.
Influence but not power.

(01:13:01):
And I wish I could haveunderstood that better before I
became like a minister, becauseif you confuse your role you get
resistance.
And a church is owned by itscongregation members.

(01:13:24):
You know, owned is probably thewrong word, but they'll be here
when I'm gone and they werehere before I was here.
And you're a leader and youhave influence, but you don't
have power to make decisionsabout things, and that's been

(01:13:44):
the area, I think, in myministry that's been the most
difficult to navigate.
Is like you have dreams andvisions and I always say this
church is a yes church, not a nochurch.
So I have not, in the 10 yearsI've been here, encountered a
lot of no.
We can't do that.
There's questions and if itseems valid, they'll say yes to

(01:14:06):
it.
But you got to enroll people inthe vision.
You can't just decide this iswhere we're going and
everybody's just going to say,yeah, that's a good idea, right?

Ricardo (01:14:17):
So understanding what it means to have influence but
not power is probably I thinkour power in both of our
professions come from the peoplethat we serve.

Joanne (01:14:27):
Right.

Ricardo (01:14:28):
And that our influence turns into power through those
people.
My work would not be herewithout my members, right, my
influence would not beinfluential without my members,
right, my influence would not beinfluential without my members.
And, while you know, local 401has 33,000 members across
Alberta and maybe a smallfraction or percentage of them
are active members.
Stomping their hands in theworkplace to be able to rally

(01:14:49):
your coworkers, the same way yourally your congregants around a
cause or a vision, is whereyour influence becomes power as
leaders, right?
And so I think we often forgetall three of us around this
table that our leaders we don't.
We are leaders and we arementors, and that we have to.

(01:15:11):
We're not going to change theworld, right, we're not.
The world is way morecomplicated and screwed up than
we might think, but we'll moveminds and we'll build
relationships and we'll movepeople and we'll get people to
support us.
And, whether it's acongregation or whether it's a
workplace, if you have thosepeople supporting you as a
leader, then you can make a lotof movement and change, and that

(01:15:32):
goes for both of ourprofessions, right?
I definitely don't forget thatboth of our professions right?

Bill (01:15:40):
I definitely don't forget that.
Interesting, because my initialresponse, and still my response
to this question in particular,is, honestly, furnace
maintenance and sort of thatkind of stuff.
I wish I knew more.
So many of my ministry contactseven, like some folks will know
, some folks won't know, somefolks won't know on the airwaves
obviously, I was at MacDougallfor a time before I left to go

(01:16:03):
to seminary and go be ministerat Ogden and then, through the
partnership and everything thatwe have, now I'm at both Ogden
we're all at Ogden andMacDougall, and Red Deer Lake
United Church as well and soI've just kind of come back in
the last few years.
But in virtually every ministrycontext up until this most

(01:16:24):
recent stint here at McDougalland even that would be
questionable there's always beensome kind of a requirement.
The sheer number of times I hadto repair the furnaces at Ogden
.
On a Sunday morning you walk init's minus 20 in the sanctuary
and you don't want to pour waterin the baptism font because
you're pretty sure it's going tofreeze before you got to put it

(01:16:48):
on the kid and you're down inthe basement of the church
trying to get this furnacethat's older than Jesus to
actually like fire up againright and so many like I can
remember being out on the frontsidewalk of Ogden one day when
it was 25 degrees out and I wasin.

(01:17:09):
I think I just finished afuneral collar and the whole
nine yards pouring concrete andrepairing a sidewalk that had
cracked to the point that it wasa tripping hazard and people
were hurting themselves on it.
Or you know, when everyone gottogether and said, hey, we're
going to rebuild theaccessibility ramp and all right
, sure, I'll be there and helpout, and it's like what the hell

(01:17:30):
do I know about?
You know, building a ramp thatisn't just going to collapse
under the weight of you know, ithas to support somebody in an
electric wheelchair, right,that's right and just all these
sort of like.
All of this stuff was the stuffthat there used to be language
in sort of job descriptions forministry in the United Church

(01:17:52):
that I think we'veaspirationally stamped out, but
maybe not Other duties asrequired.

Joanne (01:17:58):
I say that is your job description.
Other duties as required.

Bill (01:18:02):
And I mean certainly that has been my lived experience.
I think the entirety of myministry is the oh wait, I mean,
let's be honest, I'm helpingwith a musical theater camp
starting on Monday, when neithermusic nor theater is what I do,
right?
So there's just a lot of thislike, wow, ministry really is

(01:18:25):
the stuff you do after you'vemade your plans, right.
Do you know what's?

Joanne (01:18:28):
really interesting, though, is that and maybe it's
because I'm a woman I've neverhad to fix a furnace, I've never
poured concrete, I've neverbuilt a ramp, I've never done
any of that stuff.
But one of the differencesbetween you and I is like every
church that I served, except forOyen, right where I did my
internship rural.
Alberta was a large multi-staffchurch so they had lots of

(01:18:50):
committees.
They hired people to do things.
So that was always myexpectation of church.
When I went to Oyen they didn'thave an admin assistant, so you
did all your own kind of adminstuff.
Fine, I don't mind doing that,I can do that.
I've been an admin assistant.
The minister there, helen washer name love her dearly.
She'd be out there shovelingthe walk and putting the, you

(01:19:11):
know.
And they had someone who was avolunteer who cleaned the church
, but not as often probably asit needed to be.
And I remember saying one dayshe said, no, you just have to
do this stuff when you're theminister.
And I said, look, the day theyhave me clean the toilets, I am
out of here.
It was just like that was whereI drew the line.
But understanding thedifference between being a

(01:19:33):
single minister at a smallerchurch and being part of a
multi-staff church A singleminister at a smaller church and
being part of a multi-staffchurch, it's a really different
thing.
But also, you know, like Idon't know if anyone would ever
expect me—I couldn't fix afurnace.
Let's be honest, bill, I couldnot do it.

Bill (01:19:49):
Neither could I right.
I mean, I could probably now,but again like it would depend.
I can now fix old-timeyfurnaces probably now, but again
like it would depend.
I can now fix old timeyfurnaces like.
I now know that there was atime when we built furnaces to
last and they had nine parts andthey, like they run long after.
Everybody that built them isdead, right, um, but we've moved
into a world now whereeverything is like compartmental
and modular and, you know,disposable.

(01:20:12):
So you like they've got 50parts now in a furnace and this
one can break and your onlyoption is to buy a new one and
replace it.
Right, and they're componentparts.
Now, altogether, I can't fixthose, but if we're talking one
of those old-timeybuilt-like-a-brick-you-know-what
house and nine parts, yeah, Icould probably bang it back into

(01:20:34):
working order.

Joanne (01:20:36):
See, here's a true.

Bill (01:20:37):
For Jesus.
For Jesus, you could doanything for Jesus.

Joanne (01:20:43):
Here's where my feminism breaks down, because if I was
in a church like that and afurnace needed fixing, I'd call
my Dave and he would do it.
And my husband, over the 25years I've been working in
churches, has been voluntold alot in my life and I am forever
grateful for him.

(01:21:03):
He would shovel the walk.
He would do all those thingsand has.
The amount of labor he's putinto congregations that I've
served is phenomenal.
So there's, like I said, wheremy feminism breaks down just
because he's so good at it.

Bill (01:21:18):
At that same dinner that I said I was going to write, I
also said that there's a specialplace in heaven for clergy
spouses.
Yes, for sure, and that isdefinitely the case.
All right, so part B of thequestion.
Ricardo already kind offoreshadowed it what would you
do if you weren't doing this?

Joanne (01:21:38):
So yeah, you know, when I was young I was a little bit I
remember telling my mom I wantto be a movie star and a singer
right, and she told me I wasprobably eight years old.
Like who wouldn't say that ateight?
She said I would rather I can'teven remember what she said you

(01:21:59):
be something like a grocer thanbe in that business.

Ricardo (01:22:04):
Nothing wrong with grocery, no.

Joanne (01:22:07):
Unless you're working for Safeway Anyway so I mean, I
I'm doing that musical theatercamp too.
But I do do music and theaterand and have always been a
singer and you know I've hadmusic teachers tell me that I
should be a professionalmusician.
People have always, you know,enjoyed my singing and but I

(01:22:33):
always that what my mom sayingthat has always made me think
that was never an option for me.
That you know she kind ofinstilled in me that my voice
was for God and no one else, noone else.
And so I actually wish therewas one time I was in Toronto

(01:22:54):
where I decided, yeah, I'm goingto try and be a singer.
I was like in my twenties and Iwent and and found an agent
actually, and then he went outof business like the next week
and I never went any furtherwith that.
But I wish I had explored thepossibility of, you know,
singing as a profession when Iwas much younger.
Love, love music.
And of course I was a lawyerand lots of times I sit there

(01:23:16):
and think like why didn't I juststick with that?
Why didn't I stick with that?

Ricardo (01:23:20):
I'd have my mortgage paid off now, but anyway, I will
say earlier in the episode,like today I said I wanted to be
a bus driver at one point intime.
So every year I look at mypension statement and see how
much closer I am to retirement.

Joanne (01:23:31):
Yeah.

Ricardo (01:23:31):
And then I say I'm just going to quit what I'm doing
now and just drive a bus.
Drive a bus, and Lord knows I'mnot diminishing bus drivers'
work, because right now theyprobably work harder.

Joanne (01:23:39):
I was going to say, do you?

Ricardo (01:23:40):
think and are abused more than any time.

Joanne (01:23:43):
The bus driver is easy yeah.

Ricardo (01:23:44):
No, I don't think that at all, but I just something.
I like something morerepetitive Right In that sense
right, yeah, something less yeah.

Joanne (01:23:58):
Less hectic.

Ricardo (01:24:00):
Hectic is a good word.
Yes, exactly, I didn't saytaxing, but hectic.

Bill (01:24:04):
I actually have two answers to this one that I
couldn't distinguish between thetwo.
Actually they both carry equalweight, I guess.
For me, the first one, honestlyI never get to do it enough.
But there is something I trulylove, even in my amateur status,
about carpentry and buildingthings and yeah, I mean you

(01:24:27):
can't see it if you're listeningon the radio, but Ricardo just
tapped the tables actually thatwe are sitting at for our
podcast because, yeah, I builtthese right With help, we had
volunteer help with it.
But certainly, like theconstruction of things and
building of things and hasalways been, I've always kind of
thought like if I actuallylearned how to do this well, it

(01:24:49):
would be.
There's something for me reallylife-giving and really kind of
just like it feels good when youcomplete something of medium or
format right To achievesomething that is yours and that

(01:25:09):
you have built, you know, fromyour own skill set, just really.
But at the same time, the otherthing, honestly, that I've never
been able to shake, kind of thequestion about or the wondering
about, is a bartender, in allhonesty, like at a local
community pub, kind of likerelational, conversational I
used to think barista, but, andI'm sorry, starbucks patrons,

(01:25:33):
y'all are a pretentious lot withyour, your orders that are
longer than they need to be, butlike just where, where people
would be, you know again, likejust you know enjoying a drink
and casual conversation and youknow just kind of the knowing
everybody and everybody knowingme and like you know, knowing
what their usual is and notquite cheers, but the same kind

(01:25:55):
of, the same kind of idea, right, and like all of that kind of
again, maybe maybe it's thenaive kind of sense that you
know it would be all of thatrelational stuff that I love
about ministry, without all ofthe stakes and grief Different
kind of stake, yeah yeah.
And so I mean, like those arethe two and I do actually know

(01:26:16):
how to.
I have a number of books athome on mixing different drinks
and I have a very well-stockedliquor cabinet and I am
certainly not a prohibitionistin any way, shape or form.
So, all right, funnily enoughmaybe not funnily enough most of

(01:26:37):
the questions we received werepodcast related, and that's not
surprising because this podcast,obviously this is our first
season.
This was a very new kind, youknow, kind of venture for folks,
and I think even some of thefolks that have been sitting in
our chairs have been kind ofdoing it with morbid curiosity
about just what exactly thisthing is.

(01:26:59):
So when I was thinking aboutscriptures, I was actually
thinking about the moment inLuke's gospel after the
resurrection, when the twodisciples are walking along the
road and they're confused aboutwhat just kind of happened and
trying to make sense ofeverything, and then Jesus shows
up to them and joins them inconversation and they don't even
recognize him at first, andthen eventually they get to the
point where they look back ateverything that had happened

(01:27:20):
with Jesus on the road and gowait a second, like that was a
divine moment that actuallymattered.
Right.
That was something more thanwhat we thought it was, and
that's how this podcast hascertainly for me at least, felt
a lot of the time right.
It was best to begin with, anoble failure with potential and

(01:27:40):
a grand holy experiment.
And yet here we are at the endof a year, basically at this
point, and with a few hundredlisteners and followers and some
growth and some excitement anda second season on the way.
So there's a number of podcastquestions here and we're just

(01:28:02):
going to jump right into them.
What's your favorite part ofhaving a podcast, being on a
podcast?
Jump right into them.

Joanne (01:28:12):
What's your favorite part of having a podcast?
Being on a podcast?
Well, like I said before,what's my favorite thing to do?
Have an intentionalconversation about things that
really matter.
It's what I love doing, and sohaving this opportunity to sit
there and talk about God, ortalk about love, or talk about,
you know, sex or any of thosethings that really matter to
people's lives and and to beable to, like, go deeper, I love

(01:28:35):
that.
That's for me, for sure.

Ricardo (01:28:38):
Yeah, I agree, and.
I think the three of us are.
We work quite well togetherwhen we have our conversations,
which helps a lot.
And I just two things furtherto that I mean.
The first is that you know it'sso many amazing perspectives we
get from the guests on thisshow, honestly, even from people
that I know, like Derek Cookfrom the Poverty Institute.

(01:29:01):
I've known Derek since I was achild because he's married to my
cousin, like known him for 30years, june from Action Dignity.
I've known him for a long timeand and things that they said on
our podcast that I didn't knowabout them or that, or that they
they uh, a perspective thatthey had that I never knew about

(01:29:23):
them was it was really cool forme to to enjoy and listen to.
Um, every single guest on thispodcast has been truly
exceptional, and the number ofbook recommendations that I have
I think I've said this on thepodcast before buying books is a
completely separate hobby thanactually reading the books, and
so I have to now start catchingup on reading the books.

(01:29:45):
I have to now start catching upon reading the books.
And my final beautiful goal inthis podcast, and the
manifestation of why I keepdoing this, is that one person
in Japan that literally keepslistening to us every month on
end.
If I need to like, we should dolike a special Podcast live
from Japan.

Bill (01:30:05):
Yeah, we're all going to fly to Japan, live from Japan.
Our special guest're all goingto fly to Japan, live from Japan
.

Ricardo (01:30:09):
Our special guest is the one devoted from the start
listener from Japan that listensto our podcast religiously, so
shout out to that person.

Joanne (01:30:18):
Tell us all about yourself please, you are what
keeps.
Ricardo showing up.

Ricardo (01:30:21):
Tell us all about yourself, please yeah.

Bill (01:30:26):
Yeah, I mean for me it's been largely the same thing.
But I would mean for me it'sbeen it's been largely the same
thing.
But I would like I would saythat for me the the greatest joy
that I've had, or my favoritepart of being on the podcast,
has been the response fromguests.
Right Like when we started, Iactually kind of anticipated
that it was going to be pullingteeth trying to get people to
actually come and and sit downand have these conversations.

(01:30:46):
And in fact, the response hasbeen like quite fantastic and
quite phenomenal.
Right, it gets to the pointwhere, um, or it's gotten to the
point now where, um, I stillexpect to hear a no, um, but you
know, asking anyway just makessense, right, and uh, and yet,
uh, we haven't really received ano yet.
I don't think to any requestwe've made.

Ricardo (01:31:08):
We've received some resistance to our format, or
they want things to go their waywhen they're putting themselves
on being recorded, but oncethey listen to one of our
episodes, I think all thosewalls break down.

Bill (01:31:19):
Yeah, I mean, in fairness, I think they had a sense that
we were expecting talking pointsfrom them, as opposed to just
come and be a part of right andand and.
As soon as they yeah, as yousaid, as soon as they listened
to even one episode, it was awell, no wait, it's like throw
my talking points out.
I'd much rather do what you'redoing, right.
So so I mean, like it has been,it has been like really

(01:31:43):
exciting and really fun to tochase the, you know, chase,
chase the guests that you're,you know, you really want to
have there and actually havethem say, yeah, I'll be there,
right, um, and they're nevertalking, you know, about their
wheelhouse.
They're talking kind of youknow, wheelhouse adjacent right
Um, which is, um, again, likejust so fun to see them do the

(01:32:09):
same work that we do aroundtrying to bring it into, you
know, the sphere of the issuefrom outside or from, you know,
a peripheral kind of viewpoint.
So I've really enjoyed it.
So the next question, because Iwant to get through as many of
them as we can who would be yourdream podcast guest?

Joanne (01:32:28):
Barack Obama.

Bill (01:32:31):
Okay.

Joanne (01:32:32):
Shoot for the stars Yep.

Bill (01:32:33):
Yep.

Ricardo (01:32:39):
Unattainable.

Bill (01:32:40):
Dream.

Ricardo (01:32:41):
Dream.

Bill (01:32:42):
Dream.

Ricardo (01:32:44):
Jagmeet Singh or some high profile liberal politician,
maybe even Prime MinisterCarney, right, I think Nahid
Nenshi would be cool to havehere too, right?
Bernie Sanders yeah, that'sright.
Right Out of politics andmixing social justice with
religion.

(01:33:05):
William Barber yeah, he's areally interesting man, william
Barber.
William Barber with the.

Joanne (01:33:07):
William Barber yeah, he's a really interesting man,
william Barber.

Ricardo (01:33:10):
William Barber with the Poor People's Campaign yeah,
he's actually has a podcast withthe Poor People's Campaign, but
to have him like he's actuallylike.
When I was interviewing for myjob at the union 16 years ago,
they asked me who my heroes wereand I said William Barber was
one of my heroes because I stillhad a deep root in my faith.

(01:33:31):
This was before I joinedMcDougal and he ties together
faith with social justice.
So well For sure, right.
And so William Barber would beyour dream podcast person.
I would just be like, right,yeah, for sure.
So, interestingly enough, theanswer I would just be like
right, yeah, for sure.

Bill (01:33:49):
Um, so, interestingly enough, the answer I was going
to give I can't give, and I'lltell you why in a moment.
But, uh, um, uh, in all honesty, my number one, um, my number
one dream podcast guest has beenfor the entirety of this time,
um, somebody that probablynobody has heard of maybe they
have Josie Balka, who is.

(01:34:11):
She's one of the morning showhosts of Country 105, but she's
also like on Instagram.
She's a poet.
She has a New York Timesbestselling poetry book that
just came out, called I Hope youRemember, and when the pandemic

(01:34:32):
started in 2020, and we allwere kind of, you know, forced
to isolate and stay at home, mywife was still working.
She was at one of the approvedchildcare centers or whatever
that was staying open forfrontline workers, and so I was
at home, the kids were at home,the kids were in online school.
Things are crazy.
Isolation was a really bigthing.

(01:34:53):
We were leading worship out ofmy living room off my iPhone,
tied to a two by four on Sundaymorning, and a lot of the work
was just around trying to teachpeople how to engage with
technology and social media inways that they hadn't before.
I was trying to learn a bunchof new things.
The stress was high and themorning show became kind of my

(01:35:16):
outside world interaction fromstart to finish right, and so
much of Greg and Josie's morningshow was kind of central to my
ability to stay sane in themidst of everything that was
happening and there was, rightlyor wrongly.
My assumption always is that thelistenership for Country 105 is

(01:35:38):
probably more conservative than, say, some of the other radio
stations that there might be.
We are in Alberta.
There are a lot of pickuptrucks with testicles hanging
off their trailer hitches andyet at the same time, like Josie
Balka has talked about you knowher own mental health struggles

(01:35:59):
, her own like she's gettingmarried this year and her poetry
that she shares on social mediathat has been compiled in her
book is all about the beauty andtragedy of human living and she
brought so much of that and somuch of herself into and still
does bring so much of that intoeverything she does you feel

(01:36:22):
cared for, even by a morningshow, and she would be a
fascinating person for me to beon the podcast because of the
depth of her humanity and justthe experience of listening to
her for so many years.
So the other person that Iwould normally say would be

(01:36:46):
Sarah Charters, was a huge guestdream of mine to have Sarah
Charters, who is the UnitedChurch of Canada Foundation
President and the PhilanthropyUnit's lead, whatever the I
can't remember right now chairof the Philanthropy Unit.

(01:37:07):
Whatever the title is sorry,sarah, I've already got it wrong
Anyhow, she is actually goingto be our guest and this was.
This was one of those reallyweird moments, like I was saying
earlier, where, like we'rehaving general council 45 here
in Calgary in August and it'sgoing to be, there's going to be
so much about it that's quitemeaningful and historic.
It's the start of the next 100years of the United Church of

(01:37:29):
Canada.
There's going to be a historicapology to the 2SLGBTQIA
community.
That is going to happen inworship during General Council
45 at Knox United Church here inCalgary.
There's just so many milestonemoments that are going to happen
here in Calgary as a part ofGC45.
And so, like I took the shot andeveryone said, like don't

(01:37:53):
bother asking her, like they'reall going to be really busy,
right?
And I emailed her and I startedwith it I know you're going to
be busy and you're probablygoing to tell me no, right?
And she was like, absolutelyLike, tell me when I'll be there
.
And it was like, okay, Itotally expect you to say no,
give me a minute here to figureall this out, right?
So she's coming in August andshe's coming the night before
general council starts to be.

(01:38:15):
A here in our studio, recordingwith us on that night is going
to be a really exciting thing.
So where we thought this wasour last episode, we got one

(01:38:39):
more before the season ends nowthat we never thought was coming
.
So yeah, I mean, but stillJosie Balka would be mine.
So, yeah, I mean, but stillJosie Balka would be mine.

Joanne (01:38:48):
So I have to give a shout out to Wab Kanu because, I
was thinking.
There's someone I listen to.
Now I keep saying I loveeverything he says and it's Wab
Kanu, who's the premier ofManitoba.
And what a wonderful humanbeing At least he seems to be to
me as far as politicians goWell more than politicians.

(01:39:10):
I just I would love to have aconversation with him.

Ricardo (01:39:12):
He brings humanity to the pulpit.
He sure does, he sure doesthere was a lot of pushback when
the province of Manitoba didthat, brought those Palestinian
children in for cancer treatment.
When we're standing in front ofour creator.
We couldn't end all wars, butwe did what we could.

Joanne (01:39:26):
Yes, that's exactly right.
That's exactly the messagepeople need to hear.
Yeah, so real and lovely.

Bill (01:39:34):
Have there been any surprising takeaways from this
podcast experience?

Ricardo (01:39:43):
No, I don't.
I expected a sense offulfillment, to be honest, with
you, I expected a sense of, Iexpected an experience, and it's
been a great one, right.
When I first started this,you're right it seemed like

(01:40:04):
doomed to fail.
Right, and I was so honored andproud that you guys asked me to
be on this podcast with you,and I think it was a great, um,
a great experience.
But I didn't know how long itwill last, for Right.
And look, here we are almost ayear later, Um and uh, I uh hold
very sacred in my calendarpodcast days, right, and I tell

(01:40:26):
my assistant you don't scheduleanything in the podcast day.
Right, In fact, I have to go toEdmonton after this podcast,
but I stayed till I could dopodcasts and drive to Edmonton
right afterwards.
Right, and I find myself nowselling the podcast.
I send the link all the time tomy friends Listen to our podcast
episode and so many of myfriends listen to it and it's

(01:40:49):
great.
And that's the unexpected thingthat I like.
I'm literally like I'm anadvertiser, right, but I'm
advertising like something thatI'm actually passionate about,
like I'm passionate about laborrights and labor relations and
all that kind of thing, but it'slike oh yeah, look at this

(01:41:10):
article about Safeway, we'regoing to strike over here,
support us.
That stuff's easy to put onFacebook, right, because someone
else is creating thatcommunication poster for me.
But for this, listen to mespeak from the heart for an hour
and a half, and people aredoing it and it brings me great
joy.
So that's the experience, andthe fulfillment is actually how.
How good the experience hasbeen and how fulfilled I get

(01:41:32):
from this podcast has been ashock to me and I'm truly happy
for it.

Joanne (01:41:36):
So Well, yeah, I'm, I always have this.
Notwithstanding that, everySunday I stand up in front of
people and, you know, basicallypresent a short essay, I still
think who cares what I think?
Who cares what I think?
So I love having conversationswith you.

(01:41:58):
That there's anybody outside of, people who know us and are
sitting here, that listen isreally always amazing to me.
It's incredible.
I think wow and had noexpectations is really always
amazing to me, like it'sincredible, like I think wow, um
, and had no expectations thatthat was going to happen.
Um, probably the other thingthat surprised not not surprised
me, but I'm proud about is howmuch bill you have taken this as

(01:42:22):
your baby in some ways.
Um, you know this is is yourdream.
You dedicate hours to it, youare still excited and energized
by the project and you know,it's just almost like a mother
and, let's be honest, I'm oldenough to be your mother but

(01:42:46):
like just watching how you haveloved this into being has been
such joy for me and that hasbeen my surprise.

Bill (01:42:55):
That has been my surprise takeaway from it is just how how
fun this has been and howengaging this has been and how
much, how much this has become,you know, kind of my.
It started off like we joked,right, this is my passion
project, right, and now it'skind of the um, you know, like
it's, it's it's fulfillment, ina way, like it's it's almost

(01:43:19):
guilty for this to be part ofthe you know um, part of the,
the work, the work of ministryin the church.
Right, it's too much fun to bein ministry and I should
probably apologize somewhere,but yeah, I mean it's been.

(01:43:39):
I think for me, the stuff thathas made it so important and
worthwhile and keeps me going isthe awareness that the voice we
are trying to put out into theworld does not have the same
budget as the voice we'respeaking against, and that you
can go anywhere and hearmessages of hate, discrimination

(01:44:03):
, division, and they'rebankrolled in ways that we
certainly are not.
Let's be honest, this is anamateur production that happens
in the basement of a church onoff hours and not on prime time,
and yet, at the same time, itmatters to people and it

(01:44:25):
resonates with people, itmatters to people and it
resonates with people and I hope, and certainly I believe, that
it provides a message for peoplethat hear everywhere else that
they don't matter, that they'renot enough, that there is
something wrong with them, andwe have fun doing it too.
Right, like that's the.

(01:44:47):
It's not like we sit here andgrieve and lament all the time.
I spend a lot of time editingout laughter volume in the
course of it.
Right, like that's the.
It's not like we sit here andgrieve and lament all the time.
Like I spend a lot of timeediting out laughter volume um,
in the course of it.
Right, we, we can have funtalking about things that matter
without losing the um, thegravity of it at the same time.
Right, so I think.
I think there's something aboutmodeling um good, respectful.
About modeling good, respectful, dignified, human, not too

(01:45:14):
serious but not diminutiveconversation that is missing in
our world.
Right, and that's just.
It's been a joy.
I'm looking forward to likecontinuing this right as long as
possible, for that very reason.

Ricardo (01:45:25):
So I think a mark of your enthusiasm when you told me
that your wife was starting toquestion your marital intentions
, which is sort of findingpolyamorous and open
relationship.

Bill (01:45:32):
Yeah, yeah, I mean like people people probably don't
know in in in the audience that,uh, like, I do a lot of reading
and research before everyepisode, um and uh, and because
of that and because I buy mostof my books digitally, um, my
algorithms constantly change.
So before we did the episode inFebruary on sexual ethics and
polyamory, I was reading up onit and all of my algorithms, and

(01:45:56):
therefore a lot of thealgorithms on shared devices in
our house, started polyamory.
And you know how do you havemultiple partners?
Bill is there something you wantto tell me, and there were
questions around my house about,like, what are you doing in
your off time there, sir?
Right, and yeah, I mean likethat's.

(01:46:16):
The fun thing about it, though,is that like it's blown open,
like even like I don't come tothese conversations as any more
of an expert than anyone elsehere, right, and the ability to
like the privilege to be able toresearch and like try to frame
these out and find questions andagain to like figure out how it
is that we shift and grow andlike we're not running the same

(01:46:40):
podcast.
You know in the last fewepisodes that we were in our
first two, right, it's humblingand yet fun to go back and
listen, like listen to our firsttwo.
Right, it's humbling and yetfun to go back and listen, like
listen to our first two episodesand where we're at now and
where we've been for the lastthree or four right.

Joanne (01:46:55):
When I wasn't here, you mean.

Bill (01:46:57):
No, no, no, no, no, no, no , no, no, joanne, it started, I
mean-.

Joanne (01:47:01):
Nobody wants to hear what I have to say anyway.

Bill (01:47:04):
No, it's like it's.
It's been fascinating to growinto it as much as anything,
right, um, and and yeah, I meanit's been a, it's been a real
joy, um.

Ricardo (01:47:13):
I think and I don't think anybody in this room uh,
um belittles the fact that thisis also, like you know, you're
working right now.
This is part of your job aswell, but it's.
I'm part of, uh, ourconstituency group called
outreach, which is the 2s lgbtqum committee, and we're putting
a conference together oncreating um queer allyship in

(01:47:36):
our unions, especially withwhat's happening in the us, and
the conference will be inphiladelphia and I'm like
completely enthralled with itright now and I want to do
everything possible.
I even asked him well, it'sgoing to go three or four days
early and help them set up andput courses and stuff like that.
And she's like, you know, youhave like a job here in Alberta
that you need to do, but youknow it's the thing in your job
that drives you Right.

(01:47:57):
And I remember one time youknow it was quite early on in
the podcast when you weretalking about podcast Bill and
sending all the stats, and Isaid to you you like this.
You're like, well, you knowthis week was particularly hard.
I think you had like threefunerals and one of them being
one of the most difficult kindof funerals you could have, with
the death of a child right, andthen you got to work on a
podcast and that is the mostwelcome distraction you could

(01:48:18):
have and so.

Bill (01:48:19):
Absolutely Even today, I mean, I went from funeral and,
um, yeah, I mean like it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's been
fun.
It really has been.
Um, the how much fun it's beenhas been surprising.
Um and uh, and so yeah, twolast questions Um, what topic
from season one would you wantto revisit and would you

(01:48:42):
approach it differently?
I'll answer that one.
First I feel like I canpinpoint the minute and second,
that we lost the handle on theFebruary sex episode.
Ah, yes, that ended up with anexplicit content warning.

(01:49:05):
Not that it was again.
It's actually one of myfavorite episodes, but it
might've been too soon forpeople, and so I think that that
is one that I would love toread, like if I knew then what I
know now.
Not that the content orwhatever necessarily would have

(01:49:28):
changed, but the framing of itmight have.
That would be my answer to thatone.

Ricardo (01:49:34):
It's still one of my favorite episodes, though I'm
having trouble thinking now ofwhich episode We've done so many
.
I missed a couple because ofwork and uh and such, but um, I
think that the pride one was umone that I'd like to have a bit

(01:49:58):
more uh I don't know ifstructure is the word because we
the topic was let my genderflow and talking about binaries
and stuff like that, and I thinka lot of it went a bit awry
with respect to what and I thinkI said this when we were doing
our prep that some of the mostmeaningful conversation we had

(01:50:20):
around the topic of pride waslike afterwards, when we had the
Q&A right.

Bill (01:50:25):
There's a substantial amount of Q&A content that
didn't make it into the podcastbecause, for those listening,
once we turn off the microphones, we have a Q&A portion.
That happens Once the podcastproper finishes.
We do a Q&A segment for thefolks in the room, and that was
a profound Q&A.
It ran long and there was a lotof engagement and a lot of

(01:50:48):
questioning.
That was some of the.
I think it speaks, though, tothe content of the podcast
itself.

Ricardo (01:50:54):
Every seat in this house was packed from that
episode.
Every seat was full.
I think there was two peoplestanding actually, and I just
would have liked to have diggeddeeper into it, especially the
social implications of genderidentity, gender expression.
How you know like I feelpersonally in my life right now

(01:51:18):
in Canada, we are creating aprotective bubble around our
human rights code Because it'sbeing rolled back so much in the
US, being rolled back so muchin Eastern Europe.
But like, look what happened inHungary, right, you know, victor
, whatever his name is, orbanOrban made pride illegal and

(01:51:42):
200,000 people came out andmarched in a pride march.
That's what pride is right, andso I think that just what pride
is right, and so I think thatjust the pride episode for me
was like a lot of storytellingwhich is perfectly valid and
perfectly fine, um, but, um, wecould have, we could dig deeper,
um, especially with the waythings are going right now, um,

(01:52:03):
with our community, um, we havea real opportunity for that kind
of stuff, and maybe Tracy wasreally good at talking really,
really strong language around it.
But I didn't feel unfulfilled.
I definitely still sold thatepisode and it's doing quite
well in terms of listenership.

Bill (01:52:22):
I just maybe I Maybe it was the start of a larger
conversation.

Ricardo (01:52:27):
Exactly, that's exactly it.
Right, that's exactly it.
A conversation that could notbe happening in an hour and a
half right?
So, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joanne (01:52:36):
And I would say missing that conversation is like my
biggest regret from the seasonbecause I and maybe not from the
issues of non-binary, but theidea that God is queer is a
really important part of mytheological perspective and
examining that and exploringthat further would have been
like I you know I was in EasternCanada.

(01:52:58):
It was all great Love the ocean, newfoundland's wonderful.
If anyone wants to go to agreat city, st John's is great,
but still, I would have loved tohave been a part of that.
Yeah, for sure.

Bill (01:53:08):
All right, and then is there a topic you would be
really excited to tackle inseason two.
That's going to be the one thatstumps you Really.
Yeah, huh.

Joanne (01:53:27):
Well, I mean, I think we could go a lot more into
fascism because it's unfoldingand the Christian response to
like Christian nationalism issomething that really is
heartbreaking for me, likereally heartbreaking.
Heartbreaking for me, likereally heartbreaking, because I

(01:53:48):
was part of the evangelicaltradition and the way I was
raised.
It's just not on displayanymore and Jesus is too woke
for some of them.
I just think it has profoundimplications not just for our
faith tradition but also for ourpolitics.
So I know we've kind of touchedon it many times here, but the

(01:54:12):
whole idea of Christiannationalism and why it's so, so
wrong.
I saw an interview today, Ithink someone was on Joe Rogan
and said the reason you needlike theocracy is so bad is
because you have a fanatic whois saying it's not just a
fascist, it's a fascist who saidthis is God's way.

(01:54:43):
You know, self-interested as thename that should not be
mentioned in the States bringsGod into conversation all the
time is a really dangerousprecedent for our tradition.
You know like I fear for theChristian faith from Christian

(01:55:07):
nationalism, actually, becausethere will be a backlash, it
will happen and we will be sweptup in it, because, as much as
progressives like to say thatthey're not really Christians,
yeah, they are, they are.
I mean, christiana has a longhistory of colonization and
violence and all that.
So that kind of thing.

(01:55:28):
I would like to get somebodywho's like an expert on
Christian nationalism to comeand chat with us.

Ricardo (01:55:38):
I think two things.
The first would be to delve alittle deeper into the issue
around racism.
I think we touched on it a bit.
So, for example, we've had atopic on poverty, on being good
neighbors, on love, on pride,and what we don't touch too

(01:55:58):
deeply about is the fact thatpeople of color are
disproportionately negativelyaffected by all of those topics.
So in the queer community andeven in the heterosexual
community, people of color areoften looked past for
relationships or love In poverty.
People of color aredisproportionately poorer than
you could live in the sametrailer park as a white person

(01:56:20):
but still be, you know,disproportionately less
advantageous than a white person.
So systemic racism is a bigproblem and I always remember
Wab Kanu, who says that you cango for a concert or the Calgary
Stampede and you'll see a whiteperson on the street who just
threw up everywhere andeveryone's like, oh God, it's

(01:56:40):
just the Stampede, Look at thoseidiots.
But you look right next doorand there's an Indigenous person
in the same circumstance andour reaction is completely
different, rooted in the racismwe feel towards our indigenous
people.
So racism is a big one for meand we've touched on it, and I'm
not saying that we're avoidingit by any way, should perform,
or maybe like a topic aroundaround it.
Um, and I thinkintersectionality around

(01:57:04):
religion would be cool too, likehaving an imam, or there was
that person who was of theBuddhist faith that came to our
Souls in Sync lunch once.

Joanne (01:57:12):
Yes, sensei, ken.

Ricardo (01:57:14):
Yeah.

Joanne (01:57:15):
He's moved.

Ricardo (01:57:16):
I think that Christian nationalism, coupled with like
how do other religions survivein the age of America?
In Christian nationalism?
Like, how do the Muslim people,how are they being treated
right now?
How are Jewish people beingtreated in Canada right now?
Right, we're in Fairview, rightnext door, which is actually a

(01:57:37):
very large Jewish community inFairview with the Chabad-Lubowit
Shillong-Lenmore Trail, but nowwe have the Fairview Mosque in
the same community, so it's areally cool uh dynamic in this
pocket of calgary.
But I think intersectionalityamong religion would be really
would be a really cool thing todo, right?

Bill (01:57:54):
so yeah, and I mean for me , uh, one of the things that's
always been kind of a strange uhwondering for me more than
anything is around, uh, um sortof conversations around
incarnation, um, or embodied um,embodied kind of faith, right.
So, again, certainly in nosmall part due to the fact that,
you know, I'm kind of, in thiswhole, like planning to run a

(01:58:16):
marathon before I'm 50 and kindof skirting around the edges of
the fitness kind of industry andmessaging and what we're told
about our bodies and what we'retold about our health and our

(01:58:41):
care and the purpose for ourbodies.
Even right that alongside allthe other mental health things,
eating disorders, all theseother kinds of issues are on the
rise that we still deal with.
I think some messaging and evenin the Christian tradition it's

(01:59:02):
certainly rising out of some ofthe other kind of nonsensical
stuff that we're hearing out of,some of the messaging coming
largely out of the US, but again, not by any means not here in
Canada as well, just around youknow, like what a woman's body
is supposed to be for, forinstance, or why women should be
taking care of themselves andhow they should be looking and

(01:59:23):
what they should be doing, buteven expectations around men and
masculinity and all that kindof stuff.
I think that there's probably aneed for there to be a
different narrative out therethan just the one that you can
easily find, and I think there'sa responsibility to respond in

(01:59:46):
some ways to that kind of stuff.
That would be, for me, a reallydeep and interesting.
What does it mean to be made inthe image of God, right?
And then what is our response?

(02:00:09):
That hopefully moves beyondyour body as a temple, right,
because that may or may not bethe wrong bloody message.
So yeah, that covers the lion'sshare of the questions we were
asked, covers the lion's shareof the questions we were asked,
and I think we have done thecollege try at keeping it honest

(02:00:33):
and open and certainly sharingfrom the deep places where we
can.
So it seems like a good placefor us to break for this evening
.
Normally I'd be saying that'sthe end of season one, but, as
we have announced tonight, wehave one more really exciting
episode now that will be comingin August.
So we will see you all at ournext very special General

(02:00:57):
Counsel 45 episode.
That will happen in August, butuntil then, this is Prepared to
Drown.
Signing off for the evening isprepared to drown.
Signing off for the evening.
And that's a wrap on season one.
Thank you for the questions,the stories, the laughter and
the vulnerability.
Thank you for listening andthank you for showing us that

(02:01:17):
the conversations matter andthat theology can be curious and
messy and brave and still befull of grace.
We're not done.
There's still one surprise leftto come this summer summer and
season two is already takingshape, with deeper dives, new
guests and more questions.
We're still learning how to ask.
In the meantime, you can catchup on past episodes and find
bonus content and connect withus at prepare to drowncom or

(02:01:40):
over on patreon from all of us,from joanne ricardo and myself.
Thank you truly.
Until next time, stay curious,stay curious, stay kind and
remember that grace is bigenough for all of us, even when
we're in over our heads.

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Episode 10 - Cannonballs and Bellyflops: Making a Splash with Listener Questions!

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 10 - Cannonballs and Bellyflops: Making a Splash with Listener Questions!