Episode 13 - Sink or Sin - Prepared to Drown: Deep Dives into an Expansive Faith

Episode Transcript
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Bill (00:08):
Hello again, friends.
We have turned on themicrophones, the coffee is
poured, and this room is fulltonight because tonight we are
talking about sin, one offaith's oldest and most
complicated words.
For generations, sin hascarried guilt, fear, and
control.
But tonight we are peeling itback to see what we might find
underneath.
Maybe it's about how we livewith one another, how we hurt,

(00:30):
how we heal, and how we tryagain.
There's a line in a hymn thatsays, You'll never walk on water
if you're not prepared todrown.
Well, I'm Bill Weaver, and thisis Prepared to Drown.
Let's begin.
Good evening, and we are hereon a beautiful fall evening in

(00:52):
Calgary, Alberta, in thebasement of McDougall United
Church for another episode ofPrepared to Drown.
I am Bill Weaver, and we aretalking about all things sin
tonight, because let's behonest, sin has been
Christianity's best brandrecognition for 2,000 years or
more.
Original sin is actuallyAugustine's claim that we are
all born broken and we areguilty before we are even able

(01:15):
to crawl.
And the seven deadly sins havecaptured our imagination for
generations.
Pride and greed and lust andenvy and gluttony and wrath and
sloth is a list that has shapedeverything from sermons to
cinema, and it is an ancientcatalog of everything that makes
us human and afraid of beinghuman.
So here's the kicker.

(01:36):
Over time, sin becomes lessabout being honest with
ourselves and with our limits,and more about controlling
people with guilt and fear.
So today we are going to crackthat open and talk about sin
because if sin isn't just anaughty or nice list for Santa,
then what is it and how mightchanging the way we talk about

(01:58):
sin actually set us free?
So joining me for thisconversation, as always, we have
our two regulars, ReverendJoanne Anquist and Ricardo Di
Menezes, over on the far end ofthe table.
And uh we are joined tonight,I'm very excited actually, to be
joined tonight first by PamRocker, sitting right to my
right.
She is a playwright and amusician and an activist.
She she uh her art and heradvocacy invite faith

(02:20):
communities to wrestle honestlywith queerness and creativity
and belonging and diversity.
She's also stood at theforefront of a ton of justice
work for everything from transrights to the abolition of
conversion therapy.
And Pam, I am really gratefulthat you are here tonight.
Thanks for being here.

Pam (02:36):
Thanks so much.
I'm excited.

Bill (02:37):
And rounding out our panel is David Sweet sitting in the
middle.
He is a retired homicidedetective, turned author and
consultant and podcast host ofhis own as well.
Uh over 25 impactful years withthe city of Calgary, uh, the
last 14 of them spentinvestigating some of Canada's
most heinous crimes as a veteranhomicide detective.

(02:58):
Uh, we are really excited tohave you here because if we want
to talk about sin and theintersection of uh justice and
trauma and all the good thingspeople do and all the bad things
people do and all the humanstories that emerge, then who
better to have than a retiredpolice detective with the
experience that you have had?
So thank you for agreeing to behere tonight.

Dave (03:17):
Thank you, Bill.

Bill (03:18):
So I'm gonna start right at the very core of it.
And because I get to do this,I'm gonna throw the question to
Pam first and then open it up tothe rest of the panel.
Uh, what's the very first thingyou remember about the very
first time you encountered theword or the concept of sin?

Pam (03:34):
Wow.
Um The first thing I think ofis when I was probably four or
five years old.
And uh my my mom had four kids,has four four kids.
And we lived in this reallysmall house in upstate New York.
And every Saturday we wouldhave like a cleaning bee.

(03:55):
Everybody had to clean, youknow.
And what we would get if wefinished all of our chores was
there was she had this big jarof uh bubblegum, you know, like
Wrigley's double mint, you know,that sort of thing.
And we didn't have a lot ofmoney, so like having candy and
gum was like not an everydaything.

(04:15):
Like having a pack of gum wasamazing.
And I loved it in my littlepaw, you know.
And I remember uh like thefirst time that I had this
feeling of like conscience ordoing something wrong, um, was
uh I went and I took a pack ofgum on not a cleaning day.

Bill (04:39):
You stole the gum from the jar.

Pam (04:44):
I did.
And I was so nervous.
Like imagine a five-year-oldholding Wrigley's like in their
in their bed shaking, right?
Um, and I think, you know,obviously it it seems like a
small, you know, quote unquotecrime.
Um, but I think that speaks tothe environment that I was in in
terms of growing up in a superreligious, you know,

(05:06):
conservative, traditional, youknow, household, and this idea
that um, you know, you wereinherently bad.
And so I think I washypersensitive to anything that
I thought, oh, okay, this isthis is not just against my mom
or you know, the rules of ourfamily, but this is against God.

(05:28):
This is something wrong.
And I think I still chewed allof the gum in that pack, you
know.
But but that's my the firsttime that I was like, oh, I have
I've done something that maycause a separation.
And I there's no way that Icould have articulated that, you
know, thought at that age.

(05:50):
But looking back at it, I waslike, oh, this is the first time
that I felt a sense ofseparation, of uh, you know,
that there's something that Icould do that would put me kind
of on the outside of the circle.

Bill (06:08):
Thank you.

Joanne (06:09):
Anyone else want to jump in first uh I have to come
right in because I have a astory very similar to that,
except that you know, I I was anadvanced criminal and I
actually shoplifted when I wasfive from the store.
Oh, yes, the chocolate bar.
And I remember going out to thecar and putting it on the
ground, like devious.
I was very devious.
And my mom got into the car,and I'm like, Mom, look, I found

(06:31):
this chocolate bar.
And she goes, Oh, your sistermust have dropped it, you know,
all that kind of stuff.
Um, but eventually, one time, Idid this a few times, like
honestly, five years old.
I was five years old.
I was in kindergarten.
And and this time I didn't havepockets or something, so I was
holding it under my dress.
And I was with my dad, and hewas like, What have you got

(06:52):
there?
Oh, nothing, nothing.
And he he finds it and then hepays for it.
And when we get home, uh, I getit.
You know, like my uh my fatheris one of those people who
believes in corporal punishment,not bad, never angry, anything
like that.
But I did get, you know, thebelt that day.

Ricardo (07:10):
Oh, I thought you meant you got the chocolate bar.

Joanne (07:12):
I was like, No, but that chocolate got angry.
It sat in the closet for a longtime.
It was right there saying tome, You are a sinner.
You go to the water, you are asinner.

Ricardo (07:23):
Okay, you got whoop, you know.

Joanne (07:24):
You know, uh, so I just wanted to say, you know, you're
like small time compared to mewhen I was true.
But I think that and Iunderstood that I was doing
wrong, obviously.
I was raised in a very similartradition to yours, you know,
like no no issue there.
But it wasn't really until Iwas like seven years old and we
had junior church, is what wecalled in the church that I went

(07:46):
to.
And the teacher was telling usabout, you know, sinning and you
know, you got to be forgiven byGod or you're going to hell,
you know.
Like, I mean, that was it.
And I remember every singlenight going to bed and praying
that Jesus would forgive me formy sins because I was so afraid
of going to hell at seven yearsold.
Like, can you imagine?
Um, so uh, and then one day injunior church, he said, Oh, you

(08:09):
don't have to ask Jesus toforgive you every day.
And that was like such a reliefto me that I was like, oh,
good, you know, I got a fewdays' grace before I got to the
house.

Pam (08:18):
God's like, okay, enough.
I gotta send this mesh to someother people I gotta listen to.

Joanne (08:24):
Just, you know, chill.
You're seven years old.
Um, but that was really it thenI think, and that turned me
around.
I never did shoplift againafter that.
But let me tell you, it waslike, and you're seven years old
and you're afraid you're goingto hell.
That's a powerful motivator tobe a good girl.

Ricardo (08:46):
I I mean, I was born Catholic, so it was a you know,
the minute you enter the church,they're like, don't be sinning.
Yeah, the guilt starts veryyoung, even before your eyes
open, right?
So um I I think the first, andit's a it's a shoplifting story
as well.
I mean, it's we have growingtheater.

Pam (09:04):
Everyone watch your purses,

Bill (09:06):
Our minister.

Ricardo (09:08):
It was in the US.
We had got so back so you know,I'm for those of you that can't
see me right now, I'm tall andour whole family is tall.
And at one point in time, likemy sister's a very avid
basketball player, and we couldnever find shoes and high tops
and basketball shoes for her inCanada.
Like payless just didn't exist.
Neither did Walmart.
So we had to go to Great Falls,Montana to shop for her for her

(09:30):
basketball shoes for like theseason.
And so I stole this jar of likeNinja Turtles like Play-Doh.
And it was nothing special toit except it had a label of the
Ninja Turtles on the front andit was green.
I was like, I have to havethat.
So I put it in my pocket, likethe security guard, excuse me,
I'm sorry, and then my my dadwas like, You did what?
And I the store is no longeraround, so I think in my heart
of hearts, my theft shut thatentire company down.

(09:52):
That's the kind of guilt Ifelt, is that it was the demise
of an entire multi-milliondollar corporation.
But that was the first timewhere, like, I mean, I got beat
all the time.
Sorry, Mom and Dad, you didn'tbeat me all the time, but like
you sin all the time, you youknow, you you you swear or
whatever, and but that was thefirst time I felt embarrassment

(10:12):
over my decision to sin orsteal, right?
Like, I felt my parents'humiliation of being hauled into
a security office at like eightor nine or ten years old, and
them having to sit there whilethis loss prevention person was
like doing things.
And I think that ingrains in myhead so vividly because um you

(10:36):
you literally feel like you'velet the entire family down,
right?
And um those are the kind of itwasn't the last time that I've
let my entire family down, let'sbe clear.
But um

Joanne (10:47):
there's bigger things.

Ricardo (10:49):
There was a subsequent number of uh issues that uh
transpired since that day, butthat was the first one I can
remember where like my dad who Ilooked up to and my mom who it
was like the first time theywere like, I'm I don't know what
to say, I'm so ashamed rightnow.
So that's my first vivid sinmemory that I can think of.
Yeah, I mean, I mean say thebest for last.

(11:09):
I mean, we got the murdered, wegot the murder detective here.

Dave (11:12):
So I feel like I live like leave it to beaver here.
I don't think um, you know, soI didn't grow up in a family
that had any sort of religiousstructure at all.
And so this concept of uh, youknow, it was more around just
what's right and what's wrong,which but I nothing was ever

(11:34):
really kind of pointed out assinful, and so I didn't ever
have the pressures uh of havinga family that would, you know,
um be upset with a misstep andthat kind of thing.
So I actually don't really havea memory, a specific thing
where somebody pointed it outand said, Hey, you know, this is

(11:54):
gonna get you in trouble.
If it was gonna get me introuble, it was gonna get me in
trouble with the police, right?
It wouldn't be around, youknow, any kind of a spiritual
context or religious contextthat I would be getting in
trouble.
It would be more around, like,you know, there's laws and
there's rules in the communityand there's rules around our

(12:14):
society, and this is how webehave.
So, in a in a way, it'sprobably a little bit relieving
for me because I was gonna saymust be nice.

Pam (12:24):
No hell in your life.

Dave (12:26):
Because I have to tell you, I I kind of grew up uh
pretty much guilt-free.
With that, yeah, with the withthat, with that said, I know
that mom had uh, I don't evenknow what it would have been.
It was like a 1970s plaque, youknow, something from the 70s.
It was like a with the old uhwood-edged plaque plaque that

(12:46):
sat beside the uh phone for along time, and there were some
rules I think to live by onthere.
Okay.
Um, but it was all aroundrespect and you know doing right
and and that kind of thing.
But yeah, no, I guess I formyself anyways, it was uh I I
can't really tell you when thefirst time I ever thought of it,
to be honest.

(13:07):
Still to this day don't.

Bill (13:09):
Yeah.
There you go.
Yeah.
Um, so I I read a lot of yourbook before uh your first book.
I didn't I didn't get to dauntit, unfortunately, but it's on
my list.
But uh I did actually I I wasworried actually about whether
or not uh like what a what apolice officer might come and
say about sim.
But I found actually your uhyou referenced a um uh American

(13:33):
radio broadcaster named PaulHarvey.
Uh and uh he had done uh Whatis a Policeman in 1970.
And uh the the the opening lineis a policeman is a composite
of what all men are, right?
Correct.
Um, what's next?
Mingling of a saint and asinner.
That's right, right?
Yeah.
Uh uh dust and deity.

(13:54):
What what that really means isthat they are exceptional, they
are unusual, they are notcommonplace.

Dave (14:01):
And they have to put themselves into those places
where sin is and not partake.
Yep.
Is sort of the gist of his hishis quote.
Yeah and uh yeah, it was true.
I mean, um long ago now, 20years ago, 2004 to 2007, I was

(14:23):
working undercover in the city.
Uh we're working in our drugundercover street teams, and I
spent a lot of time in uh insome pretty um uh questionable
places, I guess, right?
With questionable characters uhand um doing questionable

(14:44):
things, and although I was thereto observe, uh I couldn't
partake.
And that was uh so the hit hisquote actually in that part that
really does resonate with mebecause I can remember how many
times I was in situations whereum uh you know I faced a

(15:05):
potential situation that I Iguess I could have done or
partake in, but my it was forme, it was ethics, it was around
my ethics that didn't allow meto uh to do that, obviously.
So um, but yeah, no, I reallylike Paul Harvey's quote
actually.
Uh and you're right, he he'she's right.

Bill (15:25):
Yep.
Um so mine is not a shopliftingone, mine's a sex one.
Um and not even sex.
So I've actually told thisstory before.
Uh recent.
Um you started sinning late inlife, though.
Um no, my uh my my first kisswas actually the first time I
actually encountered sinlanguage.
And I I told this story uh on aprevious episode as well of uh

(15:49):
my my very first kiss um waswith a girl who uh went to a
very conservative evangelicalchurch.
Um and we were young,obviously, and it was just uh
like a peck on the lips kind ofkiss.
It wasn't anything more thanthat.
And she she came the next dayand she had talked with her
youth pastor that night, and shefelt so uh destroyed by the

(16:10):
fact that she had violated thispurity code um and that she had
sinned against Jesus for it andbroke up with me on the sidewalk
outside the school.
Um, and I didn't even reallyknow that we had been dating
anyway.
Um and I I well, like I said,like I said the last time, I
encountered girls before Iencountered Jesus, and I was not

(16:32):
a fan of Jesus as a result,right?
Because it was just socrushing.
It wasn't it wasn'tembarrassing from a you know, I
transgressed against my familykind of thing.
It was a like, what did Iactually do wrong kind of thing,
right?
Like just someone tell me wherethe like where the line was
that I crossed, because I don'tunderstand, right?

(16:53):
So um, and that was the but forher it was all about you have
actually sinned against God bydoing this.
And she I learned much laterwhat the ring on her hand meant
and what the Oh she like had thepurity right now.
The whole, yeah, right.
So I had no idea at the time.
I was so confused.
Um, yeah, I mean it it was whatit was, but uh I mean, yeah, it

(17:16):
was it was uh it wasdevastating for a young kid.
Um yeah, anyhow.
Whoo! Uh it's all coming backto me right now.
Uh so the story all starts in agarden, uh, with two humans and
one rule and one apparentlytalking snake, uh, and a piece

(17:39):
of fruit that Joanne's gonnaargue vehemently was not an
apple.

Joanne (17:43):
It never says it's an apple, just the fruit.

Bill (17:47):
Um and within 10 verses, paradise is administrative, and
uh theologians have been arguingever since about whose fault it
was uh that uh that mortalityis what mortality is.
So for a lot of us, our firstlessons about sin or even more

(18:07):
broadly about right and wrongare actually wrapped up in this
idea of original sin, uh, whichis uh a teaching and uh a
theological understanding thatbefore we ever choose or chose
anything, we were alreadyguilty, and we are born now
successively throughout time asguilty as well.

(18:29):
And Augustine was actually theone who framed this idea over
1,500 years ago, saying thatbecause of Adam and Eve, every
generation since is born markedby sin, and we can never shake
that inheritance.
Um so for generations thatteach that teaching has told us
that we are default setting atbroken.

(18:53):
Wow.
I thought early pattern malebaldness was the biggest one for
me.
Possibly.
Intriguingly enough, though,the lesson of Eden, according to
Augustine, also ties in verynicely with uh uh something that
uh David said in his uhpodcast, second episode of his
podcast, he was talking aboutcuriosity.

(19:13):
Um and uh he says, and I'mgonna quote it for you We don't
always have to look ateverything.
Uh we should understand whatwe're seeing and what we're
ingesting and how that couldpotentially affect us into the
future.
Sometimes it's best to peekonly when it's prudent to do so.
Um and he was talking about uhearly in his career uh wanting

(19:34):
to see everything and experienceeverything, and then um
realizing that sometimes it'sokay not to look at that video
or okay not to, and he actuallytalks a lot.
He he made me check my browserhistory actually after the after
the episode.
And I'm a pretty innocent guyoverall, but uh he talks about
uh our innate curiosity forthings um and how it can

(19:54):
sometimes lead us down roads wedon't want to go down.
And for Augustine, this ideathat that curiosity around what
happens in the Garden of Eden iswhat marks us all as flawed and
broken for all time.
Um so Joanne, I'm gonna throwit to you first for this one.
What happens when people growup with a script running

(20:15):
underneath everything that theyare broken before they can even
act?

Joanne (20:22):
Well, I think um it really stunts your growth as a
human being, actually, becauseyou aren't able to uh like when
everything in your world is uhthrough this lens of I'm broken,
you really uh spend a lot oftime trying to fix this stuff.

(20:44):
You know, I I try to explain topeople um the church that I
went to when I was young didn'thave Lent as a concept, you
know, in Lent we're supposed tosweep out the cobwebs and
consider, you know, be morereflective about our lives, but
it's a season and then it's it'sover.
And I used to say, well, youknow, when I the way I was
raised, Lent was every day.

(21:06):
You know, like every day youhave to sweep out the cobwebs.
What have I done wrong?
Where is my brokenness?
Um, and and it's very damagingto your growth as a human being
and your ability to live intolove instead of fear, you know.
Um I I don't like the idea oforiginal sin in any way.

(21:29):
In fact, you know, when I wastaking um uh Old Testament or
Hebrew scripture studies, andthey were talking about why is
this story even here?
Like, one of the reasons of thestory is like rabbis used to
tell these really elegantstories to explain things in
human uh experience.
And this was like one of thereasons for this story was why

(21:51):
do women have pain inchildbirth?
That was the explanation.
Well, you know, Eve ate thefruit of the vent, and now she
it's hard to have babies, youknow?
Um, and which is totallydifferent than Augustine's take
on that.
I think I'm not like originalblessing.
These are the things that we'reall born, you know, blessed

(22:13):
either, because I do think thereis um in humanity, there is a
strain in us that um where wewant to, you know, look at
things we know we shouldn't lookat, we want to try things that
we know are not healthy for us.
I don't think that's likeoriginal sin.
I think that's um it's justpart of being human.

(22:36):
I don't even really know if alot of those things I would
consider sin.
I just think you choose thingsthat are not good for you.
Um but to have everything uhblack or white, sin or uh grace,
is a really um damaging umideology that stun your

(23:02):
spiritual growth as much as yourhuman growth.
Um that's what I guess I wouldsay, like it's a big topic,
Bill.

Bill (23:09):
But I know it's a big topic.

Joanne (23:12):
But in you know, in my experience, it wasn't until I
sort of gave up this idea thatof this sort of traditional
theology that starts withoriginal sin, um, that I really
could experience what it whatlove of God is instead of God as
judge, for instance.
God is the judge up there allthe time.
Did I do right by God or did Inot do right?

(23:32):
That's the whole sweeping outthe cobwebs lent kind of thing
that's every day of your life,you know, is God gonna embrace
me or not?
And you like release yourselffrom that, and all of a sudden,
you know, you recognize that Goduh is the first to cry, for
instance, when um when there'sdarkness and and um suffering in

(23:56):
the world, and all of a suddenyour world is completely
transformed by the thought of umGod is essentially loving and
we as beloved as opposed to weas sinners who are
transgressing.
It's a it opens up everything.

Bill (24:16):
Pam, you've worked a lot with faith communities on this
kind of stuff.
Uh what do you think about whatit is, what does it do to us
when the the narratives thatwere broken from the start?

Pam (24:25):
Uh I think the what Joanne shared is is right on.
Uh the thing that it makes methink of is living within that
model also means that we're notonly going to project those
judgments on ourselves, we'regoing to project them on other
people.
So we naturally are going totry to assess um, oh, is what

(24:51):
that person doing a sin?
I think that's bad.
I think that's right.
I think that's wrong.
And then we begin to developthese like value judgments uh
about who's like more worthy,who's more holy.
Um, and and you know, like whenI talked about that first
feeling of like separation or orbeing worried that I'd done

(25:11):
something to disrupt uh mebelonging, um I think this whole
idea like turns us into uh likemakes us into God in a sense.
Like we we have the illusionthat we know what's right and

(25:32):
wrong and that we can dish itout and we can, you know, say
this, you know, whatever tosomebody who we don't agree
with, or we can just look atthem and be like, oh, I wish
that they would, you know, besaved, you know.
Um, and I can say this fromexperience, living, you know,
the first 25 years of my life inthat mentality.

(25:53):
And what's what's reallyinteresting, and you know, I
think that this isn't talkedabout a lot, but I think for a
lot of folks who grew up in thatscaffolding, um, you know, once
I, you know, came out as gay,and once I once I understood um
historically, analytically,biologically, why I was fine, um

(26:19):
the next step for me was okay,wait a minute.
If this scaffolding didn't workfor me, like if if if me, you
know, if inside this system Ican now see that the system is
is inherently flawed.
And you just said likeAugustine basically invented or
oh, I'm gonna say this, right?

(26:40):
I'm gonna invent this, right?
Thanks, man, for doing that.
And you know, if this systemthat I've been, you know,
inherited doesn't honor who I amand actually doesn't make me
any closer to God or any closertowards liberation or anything

(27:00):
like that, who else doesn't itwork for?
And you know, I could havestopped and and said, okay,
well, I'm I'm comfortable now.
I've I've figured I've workedout my you know the theology to
be able to like know that I'mI'm okay.
But really the the hardest partum and I think the best part of

(27:25):
of me coming out was that beingqueer actually allowed me to
become a Christian because itwasn't until then that I
realized oh how I'm how I'mlooking at this is completely

(27:45):
backwards.
Uh we all belong.
And and who am I to put ajudgment on somebody else?
It that's making God in ourimage, right?
My my favorite, one of myfavorite authors, Anne Lamott,
says, we know that we're makingGod in our own image when God

(28:06):
hates the same people as us,right?
And so if I'm like, okay, I'myou know, I've got a list, and
you know what, I have a list,right?
Like we all have a list.

Bill (28:16):
We all have a list, yeah.

Pam (28:18):
Um but if I think if I ascribe that to God, then I'm
just making God in my image,right?
Um I I think that anything canbe used, you know, the Bible,
for example, it can be used toalienate people or it can be
used to liberate.
And so I had to begin to lookat, you know, sacred text and

(28:41):
things that I've been taught inthis new lens and say, have I
been taught to alienate or toliberate others?
Have I been taught that there'sonly like that there's five of
us on the lifeboat, but there'sonly room for four?
And so I have to be good enoughto stay, and I have to prove

(29:02):
that somebody else is worse thanme in order to stay.
Like living in that kind ofsystem really, you know, Joanne
said this, and it's true, itstunts your own growth, but it
stunts your ability to reallyhave compassion and intimacy and
be able to just see others asthey are and appreciate the

(29:27):
difference that we bring.
So, you know, it's not only alosing game for us, but it's a
losing game for everybodybecause it it skews how we see
every single thing and we becomethe judge, right?
And you know, I love um I thinkRich, it's Richard Rohr who

(29:50):
said, you know, that really sinis uh is immaturity, it's self
centeredness, it's it'sthinking, how does this benefit
me?
You know, and as We growthroughout our lives, and you
know, if we're lucky enough toget older, like we we begin to
hopefully start to think abouthow how do I how does what I do

(30:10):
benefit others?
Like, not just finding my placein the world, but how does it
benefit people around me?
And you know, I think I thinkabout all of all of the people
who uh through the years andeven right now on social media
love to say, you know, unkindthings to me because of of who I

(30:32):
am.
And I'm like, oh, I see yourimmaturity, you know, like and
because you're not willing to,you know, kind of see see the
beauty and the difference uh ofwhat's happening.
And and also I have immaturethoughts all the time.
I mean, I do, right?
So I think it's also knowingthat none of us are immune to

(30:57):
devolving back into that stance.
And it's funny, like comingfrom, you know, a very zealous
evangelical background, it'slike when I start to feel that
like, you know, what you whatpeople describe as like
righteous anger, you know, andwhen it starts to like bubble up
in me and I start getting thisidea like I know everything, I'm
gonna solve everything.

(31:17):
I'm like, uh oh, I rememberthat feeling.
And now I'm centering myselfand and what's happening for me
and me being right and mesecuring my place on the
lifeboat.
And I have to say, okay, holdon.
Maybe what I'm angry at isworthy of being angry at.
But like, where is this?
And I'm like, oh, this is theold structure that I'm going

(31:39):
back to.

Bill (31:40):
I think you're talking about the old structure I you in
Avenue Calgary, when you gotthe top 40 under 40, uh, they
did a profile on you, and itsaid that uh for queer people,
it's been ingrained in us thatin order to experience something
sacred, we have to feel guilty.
Um that they can't actuallyimagine a faith community that
would accept them withoutshaming them first.

Pam (32:00):
Absolutely.
Uh what I think to this day isis so tragic, um, but I
completely get it.
Um and I think and I thinkfolks who grew up with that
messaging um for lots ofdifferent things, whether it was
being queer or or gettingdivorced, or you know, put put

(32:20):
something in that blank is umunless you feel bad about it,
you're not having a holyexperience.
And so working with affirmingministries, a lot of times, you
know, I'll talk to queer folksand and I'll say, like, oh, what
was your experience like atthis affirming church?
Or like, what do you thinkabout this?
And so often they would say,like, it doesn't feel real, you

(32:44):
know.
And I'm like, okay, well, Iunderstand doesn't feel real.
You don't think you can beaccepted, da-da-da.
So we uh dig, dig, dig, right,to to understand what that
meant.
And at the end of the end ofthe day, for so many of them,
it's like they couldn't handlebeing in a place where they
didn't feel shame because shameequaled religious experience.

(33:09):
And so, you know, they might goto church once or twice, but
like it just they're like, itdoesn't feel real.
I'm not feeling bad about who Iam.
So, how can this be a religiousexperience?
And so it totally flips on itshead what they'd had been
taught.
And that's where I'm saying thedeconstruction comes in for so

(33:30):
many of us of like, wow, like wewe might be able to put our
heads around one thing, like,okay, maybe I'm okay.
But then once we're in anenvironment where everybody else
thinks we're okay, like it'skind of like you don't want to
be a member of a club who likewho lets you in, right?
But it's so tragic, right?

(33:50):
Because it's like, wow, is thatreally the kind of life of
faith and the kind ofcommunities like that like that
we're creating that you unlessyou feel shame, it's not a real
religious experience.
But it's so true.
And so often for for folks whohave have had that background,

(34:11):
they it takes them a long time.
Like we're talking about years,like it took me a long time to
be in a religious setting thataccepted me and to accept that
as a reality.
And I think a lot of folks justthink, you know, oh, we're in a
firmry ministry.
Why aren't there a you know aton of gay people here and blah,

(34:32):
blah, blah, whatever?
Well, there might be a lot ofreasons, I don't know, but one
of them might be it's actuallywe have been given such
different messaging.
And so it takes a long time tobuild up like, oh, I can accept
being accepted.

Bill (34:49):
Yeah, the answer might be it's just really friggin' hard
sometimes to cross thethreshold, right?

Pam (34:54):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.

Bill (34:55):
Yeah, absolutely.
Um so Dave, uh Joanne talkedabout, you know, maybe this
isn't so much about like theright or the wrong, it maybe
it's just like the nature ofhumanity that it's kind of built
in our curiosity, the thetemptation to do both good and
and and evil um or sin, um, tolook at the things we're not
supposed to look at.
Uh you talked uh in aninterview on uh the focus core

(35:19):
podcast uh actually about theidea that your years of homicide
work actually uh forced you tosee the humanity um behind the
harm.
Uh and you also talked a lot uhin your book about white picket
fences, right?
That some of your learning wasreally um uh or some of your
experience really kind of leanedinto recognizing that not
everybody actually lives in thisidealized kind of understanding

(35:42):
of uh uh a white fic whitepicket fence kind of householder
mentality, right?
So well, I feel like we're alsoreally uh reaffirming your
parents' choices not to raiseyou in a religious setting with
a lot of this conversation.

Dave (35:55):
No, not well, you know, there's lot actually lots of
parallels.
Like when I think about youknow, the original question um
that sort of started off thissegment was uh to me, uh I just
wrote it out as are we born bad?
Right?

Joanne (36:08):
I mean That's great, that's exactly it.

Dave (36:11):
And you know, there's so many debates about that, you
know.
Um personally, I mean, justfrom my own experience, I don't
think I can answer thatquestion, but I think that I
think we're inherently all borngood.
And I think our experiencesthrough our life are what shape
us in different ways.

(36:32):
I mean, I I was kind of goingback through the my memory bank
over the last, you know, 20years to try and think about how
many truly like bad people Imet.
Um, and I don't know if therewas many that weren't, they did
bad things, but they wereusually shaped that way from

(36:53):
some experience that they had.
And um I think it's importantto know that.
Like, even when people commit,like, say, like the ultimate
sin, which would be murder, forexample, most people that commit
that crime, that that theylived their life, a lot of
people, without ever committinga crime that they at least they

(37:15):
were caught for up until thatmoment.
Um I always say, you know, whenit came to things like um a
homicide or a murder, mosthomicides, two minutes before
the murder occurs, the victimhas no idea they're about ready
to be killed.
And the offender has no ideathat they're about ready to take

(37:36):
someone's life.
It's like a fateful set ofcircumstances that just all kind
of line up, and then all of asudden there's this explosion,
and something happens.
You know, it's hubby cominghome uh after work and finding
uh wife in bed with anotherhubby and boom, explosion, and

(37:56):
then and and something like thathappens.
Uh, it's two kids getting intosome sort of a beef at a bar.
Um for the whole night theythey mixed, and then all of a
sudden, in uh in a in a30-second span, there's some
pushing, shoving, punching, andthen a knife comes out and
someone is stabbed.
But these kids, the somethingbad happened, but they're not

(38:20):
necessarily bad people, youknow, like and it's it's hard to
wrap your head around that, Iguess, as a as a concept.
But I actually think that weare more shaped, and that's why
when I, you know, I mentionthings like when it comes to
like just beware what you put inyour in your mind, because once

(38:41):
it's garbage in, garbagedoesn't go out.
And I can't tell you how manytimes I sat across the room in
an interview uh looking at some19-year-old kid who's spent his
whole entire life playing videogames, has now just been
involved in a murder, and hiseyes are big and wide and a
little bit wild, and he can'tbelieve that he's uh dealing

(39:03):
with a big burly policedetective who's now questioning
him about his role in a crimethat he's going to go to the
rest to jail for the rest of hislife for.
And um I can't help but thinkthat that kid was born bad.
I think he got involved in abad situation.
And um, but I think it is allvery much environment-based for

(39:25):
the most part.
I mean, I think there are somepeople out there that are just
but I don't know if that's abirth thing, even.
I think it's just uh it mightbe something else that takes
them over.
I don't know.

Joanne (39:37):
It's interesting.
One of the things they sayabout like dropping crime rates,
basically in in major citiesand everything, that actually
crime rates are dropping, and uhyouth crime in particular, and
and people who trace theunintended consequences, they
actually uh believe that thathas to do with um birth control

(39:58):
and access to abortion becausechildren are loved and wanted,
and they turn out differentlythan if they are not loved and
wanted.
Interesting.
And um that that's that hasbeen uh an int and I I'm totally
with you 100% about the thingsshape you um and you become what

(40:21):
people have trained you tobelieve you are.

Dave (40:24):
Yeah, you know, I believe so too.
Like it wouldn't it be I I meanto me it's sad to think that if
we all grew up believing thatwe need to be fixed right from
the very beginning, that's uhthat's kind of sad to me um
personally.
Yeah from my from my view,we're not in disagreement.
We're not in disagreement here,no because I because I think,
you know, I mean, trust me whenI say that the world can be a

(40:49):
very, very cruel place.
Yes.
However, um, despite all of itscruelty, and I've seen some of
it uh over the years, uh, I cantruly tell you there's more good
people than bad people.
If we're just doing good andbad.
You know, there's uh uh theworld is uh is a pretty amazing,
magnificent place with full oftalent and full of people that

(41:13):
want to um live in safe, healthycommunities and full of people
that will step up when they seesomething's not right.
And uh and that's what we haveto really kind of leverage
behind.
And uh we can't worry about youknow what we hear in the news
at six o'clock.
Those are the one-offs.

(41:34):
In a city of 1.4 millionpeople, we will probably have
upwards of about 30 homicidesthis year.
That's not too bad.
Like it's sad for one.
It's 30 more than we wouldwant, but it's yeah, but it's
not like the the majority ofpeople will not it it it's most

(41:54):
of us will just go about ourlives and we will come across
good people, and that's a greatthing.
That's because there's more ofus than there are of them.

Bill (42:02):
Purely because we are talking sort of about the idea
of the environment that shapesus.
That's right.
And I and uh and I one of themost compelling stories you tell
on your podcast, one of the Iloved it.
I listened to it twiceactually.
I think you changed the name.
It was I think you used thename Nikki.
Um do you want to do you wantto tell the because that that's
what you're talking about,right?
Like you you actually got towork with uh undercover with uh

(42:26):
uh we'll call her Nikki, um,that uh uh experiencing you just
giving her basic respect, umbasic, you know, human decency,
um and just the the impact thatit had on on someone that at the
same time you had to grapplewith the very real reality that
you knew exactly she was goingto jail.
Yeah.
Um and and she, you know, shewas complicit in um drug

(42:49):
trafficking and and all thatkind of stuff.
But that there was a whole kindof do you want to talk about it
just a bit?

Dave (42:54):
Sure, yeah.
Yeah.
So Nikki, um, so Nikki was uh agal that was being uh human
trafficked.
Uh she was also sort of one ofthe main girls down on the when
there were still strolls in thecity.
And um, she was um alwayspicking up and loading up from a

(43:14):
particular guy that I washanging out with a lot.
And then she would go pick upher her drug and then she would
go back out onto the street andand traffic it.
And uh her world, of course, isuh very sad.
It's a sad world.
She's meeting all sorts ofpeople every night, strangers,
and and uh they probably notvery many of them very
respectful to her.

(43:35):
And so uh in these littlemoments when she would come into
the bar to what we called loadload up, um, get her quantity of
drugs to take it back to thestreet.
We would just spend some timechatting and talking.
And uh it's hard.
Like if you're a good person,you leak.
If you're a bad person, youleak.

(43:56):
Um uh and so I think I leaked alittle bit uh in terms of she
could feel that there wassomething different about me.
And uh it caused her to have, Iguess, a uh a weird emotional
reaction to me where she startedto believe that she was falling
in love with me.
And uh it was only because Ipaid her respect and kindness

(44:18):
and I I listened to her storiesand and that, and uh it always
reminded me of sort of a reallyum great idiom.
I don't know whoever first saidit, but you know, the the
hardest people to love aresometimes the hard east the ones
that need it the most, right?
And I and I do think that thatis very, very true when it came

(44:38):
to Nikki.
Yeah, and uh yeah, I I rememberthe day uh warrants were put
out for her arrest after all thedrug crimes I'd seen her
commit.
How bad I felt about that.
Um but that was the that wasthe cost of doing business, I
guess.
Yeah, but sad.

Bill (45:00):
So I'm thinking maybe we'll take an intermission right
here because when we come back,I want to uh start to talk a
little bit about maybe imagininga different way of talking
about uh the human experiencethat isn't so much about uh a
stain on our soul that we cannever uh never scrub out about
being born inherently bad, um,about inheriting original sins.

(45:21):
So we are gonna take uh anintermission and we will be
right back.
Augustine wrote Original Sin1500 years ago, and we are now

(45:51):
gonna jump ahead to uh a poetnamed Dante Alighieri who uh
captured the world's attentionby turning sin into an art form.
Uh he wrote the Divine Comedy,uh an Italian poem at the time,
uh, that gave us the sevendeadly sins as uh a mirror of
the human condition in veryartistic flowing language, and

(46:14):
named them as pride, greed,lust, envy, gluttony, wrath, and
sloth.
So to open up this section, uhI'm going to ask the entire
panel, in whatever order youwant to answer it, when you hear
those sins, and I'll name themagain pride, envy, greed, lust,

(46:41):
envy, sorry, pride, greed, lust,envy, gluttony, wrath, and
sloth.
When you hear those seven sins,which one most which one feels
most alive in our world today?
While I'm eating a coconutbrownie.

Ricardo (47:03):
Greed.
Greed?
Say more.
Well, I'm a union negotiator,so for private sector
employment, so all I ever see isthat the constant pursuit of
profits and the constant pursuitof shareholder dividends, and
the constant pursuit of keepingpeople in poverty.

(47:25):
Um we have grocery stores whoare probably making the most
money they've ever made rightnow in the public eye and
vilified for that, still sayingto their workers, we're not
going to give you any more than1% for a wage increase or
anything more than minimum wage.
And that translates down to umus uh in what's left of the

(47:49):
middle class.
Um we we we do what we have todo now to survive.
And you know, we were talkingearlier about the teacher strike
and the possibility of ageneral strike that people are
talking about, and and I said tomany people, I said, I don't
see it happening.
I don't see a general strikehappening like 1919 Winnipeg
when people are working two,three jobs to survive or barely

(48:11):
surviving on one, whengovernments are living paycheck
to paycheck, and all you everhear in the world is how much
things are costing and andseeing, right?
So um so I guess we askourselves like when we talk
about sin, and um it's alwayswhat we do onto others, right?
And there's never a reflectionof sin on how we treat

(48:33):
ourselves, how we talk aboutourselves, how we nourish
ourselves, um, and how we takecare of our mental health.
And I think that if we flipthat lexicon of sinning against
ourselves, we would have a lotmore spirit to fight against
those that sinned against us.
And I often think to myself,like, if the root of sin that we

(48:56):
were taught our entire lives isbased on the disrespect of
others, um, but you do sobecause you yourself is
sacrificed as well, is it is itsin?
Like if you're stealing to feedyourself because you have no
money for that.
Les Miserables.
Right, right, yeah, yeah.
Right, right.
No, you know, and so LesMiserables is a great example of

(49:18):
like you know, the peoplefighting against the boy, but
nothing's really changed in thatsense, right?
And so that's why greed is thebiggest thing for me.
And I mean, gluttony is I couldsay gluttony is one thing, but
I mean I think the war onobesity is a whole different
topic of conversation for PDD.
Um but we throw out a lot morethan we consume, we

(49:38):
over-consume, we overpopulate.
Like I think greed is the worstone of all right now.
Back to my brownie.

Joanne (49:46):
I think that's right.
Um and I I agree greed is isreally um shaping our culture in
a way it never has before.
You see that in the growing gapbetween the wealthy and the you
know, the poor, or just therest of us, really.

(50:07):
Um but I wonder, like, I mean,I could pick any one of those,
but when um when I think aboutlust, I don't think of it um
necessarily sexually, but that Iwant, I want, I want, I want, I
want, I want.
And we have a culture that thatis trying to cater to instant
gratification in a lot of ways.
Do you know?

(50:28):
You can get whatever you wantto eat.
You know, you you can and if itis sex that you're wanting, you
can find it.
Do you know?
Like anything that you want,you can get Amazon.
You know, I I don't know howmany deliveries I had this week,
and uh, you know, but this ideathat everything is
instantaneous, whatever youwant, you can get.

(50:49):
And I think that that is um,you know, notwithstanding that
I'm like everyone else, loveconvenience.
Um the idea that that we needto have everything we want is
really damaging to individualsand cultures, I believe, because
inevitably it ends up inexploitation of people who are

(51:12):
gonna get you that, right?
Um and so, and it's easy toforget that.
So that'd be mine.

Dave (51:21):
When you list these out, they almost look like motives
for murder.

Bill (51:24):
Well, you did actually you did uh you did an event at uh
Spark After Dark, and somebodyasked you what the main five top
reasons were, and three of youranswers were three of these,
right?
Yeah, there was a movie alreadythough, seven.

Dave (51:37):
Seven, yeah, yeah.
Brad Pitt.
Yeah.
But I mean I think about howmany how many times people have
lost their life over greed.

Bill (51:44):
Yeah.

Dave (51:45):
Right.
Um you know, lust, same thing,or sort of uh I don't even know
if it's lust, but if it's moreof a uh like a perverted form of
it, really.
A lot of that um if I can'thave you, nobody else can kind
of which is also greedy.

(52:05):
Um and wrath.
I mean that that's uh the onethat really kind of stands out
for me in terms of but that'scoming from a uh a lens that's a
little bit um a little bitjaded that way.
Obviously, uh wrath was behindalmost everything I did for 15

(52:26):
years.
And um and uh a little spokespeaks a little bit about like
uh Pam and I were having alovely conversation about
punishment, and maybe you canfinish that part of it off.
But um, we're living in a verymuch a punishment focused
society right now.
And um we you know whether it'suh uh punishing people without

(52:51):
due process, like rushing tojudgment very, very quickly, um
or just wanting the worst forsomebody.
Uh we we seem to see thatplaying out quite often now.
So uh I think wrath would beprobably my top pick there.

Bill (53:07):
Yeah.

Pam (53:11):
I think the the first thing I think of is pride, not in the
beautiful queer pride whereyou're like, I'm I'm glad I
exist, I'm glad you exist, let'scelebrate that.
Um but I think aboutexceptionalism and I think about

(53:34):
empire.
Um I I don't really readhistory books a lot because
they're usually really boring,but um I did have uh uh a chance
to recently interview LyndonMcIntyre, um, and he wrote a
book called Accidental Villain,and it talks about um Sir uh

(54:00):
Hugh Tudor, who was basicallyreally celebrated during World
War One.
Um and then uh right before youknow the the war for Irish
independence um was actuallycalled a war when they started
to want independence.

(54:21):
Um, Winston Churchill looked atthat and thought, oh, if if
they work towards independenceand get it, um like that's gonna
threaten our empire, like ourour colonization, our our sense
of like uh control.
And so he said to his friend,because he was close friends

(54:42):
with um Tudor, he was like, Iwant you to go and like handle
this however you need to.
So he did, and he handled it inan extremely brutal way.
You know, that's when BloodySunday happened, and um, and
basically, you know, for severalyears, um, you know, for the

(55:02):
time, some of the most brutalthings happened.
Um and he did that kind ofunquestioningly, um, because
Winston Churchill said, Can youdo this?
One of the tactics they usedthat I found interesting was um

(55:23):
framing political opponents ascriminals, framing political
ideas as crimes, and then beingable to justify murdering people
because of that.
And I look at you know, thestate of our world today, it's

(55:43):
really easy for us to look atthe US, it's easy for us to look
at the Middle East, it's easyfor us to look in a lot of
different places to see the samething happening.
And you know, because I work inqueer faith intersections, the
first thing that I think aboutis that exceptionalism, not only

(56:04):
in the sense of like a physicalwar, physically getting rid of
any um attempts to take overempire or you know, challenge
the status quo.
I think about Christiannationalism.
And I think about the ways inwhich I have seen, you know,
I've been doing this work forlike 15-ish years, the ways in

(56:25):
which I've seen Christiannationalism, this sense of like
we're the best, this is what ourcountry is built on.
Everyone should believe what weneed to believe.
We need to make sure that thenext generation follows our
rules because we know the oneand only truth in the one and
only way, and the ways in whichthat exceptionalism is leading

(56:45):
to really fatal consequences forpeople on the margins.
Um and it and it again, it hasnothing to do with Christianity,
it has everything to do withthe empire and who holds the
power.
And uh to me, it'sunrecognizable as being

(57:06):
Christ-like uh in any way,shape, or form.
And I think we're we'reunderestimating the influence
that that has on Canada uh rightnow, uh, because I see how it's
influenced there'smisinformation, disinformation
campaigns.
I mean, there's a lot of moneyuh going into this idea that

(57:28):
some people are disposable, thatsome people are uh not even
human.
And so I think about that badkind of pride.
Like, I'm the best, I knowwhat's right for everybody, and

(57:49):
everybody needs to follow what Ibelieve.
And um it just makes meparticularly angry because it's
in the name of faith.
And again, you know, like Isaid, faith should be
liberating, it should make usmore of who we are, not less.
It should make us not want tobe billionaires, it should make

(58:09):
us care about whether people arefed and and whether people have
enough money to have a littlepiece of land and raise their
little family or have whatever,you know, something to to make
in this life.
Um and uh so the fact thatpeople do that and say that this

(58:29):
is just, this is this is acalling from God is wild.

Joanne (58:35):
What's interesting, I think, in that whole Christian
nationalism conservativemanosphere, um, and there's been
books about this, I think I'vementioned it in other podcasts,
about they talk about the sin ofempathy, right?
And and they also put that onwomen.
Women are far too empatheticand they need to take their

(58:56):
place again.
And they they will um put upwith sin because they're
empathetic about the person andtheir circumstances, and that is
uh, you know, a greattransgression for people with
that particular, you know, I'mright and you're wrong.
And so it's not just um it'snot just you know what we would

(59:20):
say uh I mean, women have beenmarginalized, but you know,
there was the first, second, anduh third wave feminism, which
made many of us believe thatthings were different and we
could hold our position.
But come in with somethingabout the sin of empathy and
start telling women and churchesthat being empathetic is a sin,

(59:42):
that changes a lot of things interms of what their role is, in
terms of what Christianity is,in terms of what our culture
becomes if we lose empathy.

Pam (59:54):
I and I have to add here something that just like
underlines that completely.
Like I I'm related to um lovelypeople who have very different
beliefs than me.
And what's really interestingto me in in a really wild way is

(01:00:15):
you know, they say so manythings that are very
anti-immigrant.
Um unless it's an immigrantwho's being persecuted for
trying to spread the gospel ofJesus.
Oh yeah.
Right?
So it's a carve out.
There's a carve out.

(01:00:37):
Yeah.
So it if if they're fleeing thecountry because they're being
gonna be murdered or they'rebeing trafficked or they're
doing whatever, it's like, nope,sorry, rules are rules.
If they're fleeing the countrybecause they were trying to
distribute Bibles, let's have afundraiser.

Bill (01:00:57):
So I need to ask Dave what he thinks about the sin of
empathy.

Dave (01:01:02):
Well actually I actually it's interesting.
I I actually think empathy isum more of a persuasion of
anything or an influence morethan it is uh a sin.
Um Brene Brown uh has talkedlots about empathy and sympathy
and sort of the differencesbetween the two.

(01:01:24):
Uh her lesson on this subjectum completely changed my way of
interacting with people uh tothe better.
I had way more like so manymore positive interactions with
people when I started topractice empathy versus
sympathy.
And what she says about it, andand I absolutely agree,

(01:01:46):
empathy, well, first of all,sympathy, it's disconnecting,
separating, and at its lowestform could look like pity, which
maybe is a little bit sinful.

Bill (01:01:58):
Or patronizing, yeah or patronizing, right?

Dave (01:02:01):
I'm so sorry that happened to you.
Sounds can it can come acrosswrong.
Empathy, though, is the um itit will bring you to a place
where you can connect withpeople.
And I can certainly tell you,like just even from my
experiences, like in aninterview room, when I was

(01:02:21):
empathetic to the person thatwas sitting across from me,
whether it was the 19-year-oldkid that had just murdered
somebody, if I practiced empathyum versus sympathy, I had a
much greater chance of beingable to get his truth from him,
for him to tell me his side ofthe story, which was always my
goal and objective in aninterview.

(01:02:43):
And I I mean I just will justspeak on it just a little bit
more, if that's okay, Bill.
I would just mention when itcomes to like the analogy
between sympathy and empathy, Ijust want you to kind of think
about like what is really thedifference?
Well, the difference is this.
If you were walking down thestreet and you came across a

(01:03:08):
friend who had fallen down intoa hole, you would walk up to
that your friend and you'd seethem in the at the bottom of
this hole or this pit in themiddle of the street, and you
might say, I'm sorry to see youfalling down that hole.
Do you need any help?
And if that individual wouldprobably say to you, No, I'm
okay, I'll figure it out.
Why?

(01:03:29):
Because you disconnected thatusing a phrase, I am sorry,
which is sympathy.
However, same scenario, you'rewalking down the street, your
friend's falling in the hole,you get to your friend who's
fallen down that hole, and yousay, Oh my gosh, I can't believe
you've fallen down that hole.
You must be cold, you must bescared, you must be hungry.

(01:03:53):
Give me one moment, I'll beright back.
You go, you get a ladder, youcome back, you put the ladder at
the edge of the hole, and youclimb down, and you help your
friend up, and then you go upbehind them, that's empathy.
Empathy is really kind ofgetting into the hole with
somebody, and that is why it issuch a um connecting experience

(01:04:15):
for people.
So it's so for me, uh, do youeven think that uh empathy could
be uh viewed as something umit's not uh in my view, in my
view.

Joanne (01:04:29):
But if you are of the persuasion where you're actually
trying to sow division, right?
Which a lot of Christiannationalists are.
Sure.
And if you're trying to uhcultivate an us them mentality,
and if you want to make surethat all the people that you
don't like, that God hates thesame people that you do, then
empathy is the most dangerousthing.

(01:04:51):
Because if you can seeyourself, I mean, empathy says
me too.
Brene Brown says that mostpowerful words in any the human
language are me too.
If you see yourself and thatguy down the hole in the hole,
right, that's dangerous,particularly if that guy is one
of those people that you don'twant to be part of your club,

(01:05:12):
right?
So that's why um see I I waslistening to a uh an interview
with uh Latina woman, and theywere talking about how um in the
last election there was a realswing of um Latino voters
towards you know the one whosename shall not be spoken.

(01:05:34):
And um she said it's becausethey went into the churches,
they went into the churches, andthen they equated, you know,
Democrat ideas with sin, right?
And the right thing and thejust thing and the thing God
wants is what the Republicansare putting out there, and that
was what she believed was thereason for the swing, because

(01:05:57):
they knew to go to the churches,and that's why this whole idea
of sin and original sin andwe're right and you're wrong,
and they're against God is sodangerous in our culture.
Notwithstanding I'm a minister.
Do you know it is so dangerousin our culture because as soon
as you say, Oh, you're not onGod's side anymore because you

(01:06:20):
love queer folk, you know, thatis it's like all of a sudden,
like when I was that's thephone.
Uh Ricardo's phone said theydon't understand.
I think I must have said Siri.

Ricardo (01:06:33):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joanne (01:06:35):
Um this is religion can be used to sow division.
Absolutely, particularlyreligion that is void of
empathy, that calls empathy asin.
But religion can also bebecause it is am I my brother's
keeper, for instance, was thequestion.
And yes, we you are, you know,we are each other's keep, we
carry each other.

Bill (01:06:55):
We are the keepers' we are each other's keepers in the
carrying sense of the word, notin the um, you know, meeting out
judgment and punishment senseof the word, right?
Exactly.

Joanne (01:07:06):
We get to carry each other.
I love that line from the U2song.
We get to carry each other, andthat's how community faith
should act.

Bill (01:07:13):
So in the in the understanding of the seven
deadly sins, which again, umtake it for what it's worth,
middle ages, right?
Um the the the idea really isthat at the root of all of these
sins is pride, right?
And that pride actually umweaves its way into all of the
other ones as well.
Um that if I if I believe thatI am more than my neighbor, um

(01:07:36):
then it it will not be okay ifmy neighbor has a better house
and and there is the sin ofenvy, right?
Right.
Um it will not be it will notbe okay if my neighbor has more
wealth and therein lies the sinof greed, right?
Um and and so on and on and onit goes.
Um that's that even the thethese are not these are not
rigid boundaried sins at all.
They they intermingle andinterrelate with each other all

(01:07:59):
the time.
Um part of part of I think youknow my answer to the question
would be sloth, in fact, I thinkis the most prevailing I I
almost said wrath, but that'sjust because that's my sin of
choice, so I see it everywhere.
Um but uh but I think sloth,and and I say sloth because
historically sloth has beenviewed as um and has been

(01:08:22):
portrayed as just pure lazinessin the sense of um you sit on
the couch all day with your bagof Doritos and do nothing um of
any socially redeeming value.
And certainly that can besounds like heaven to me.

Joanne (01:08:35):
Right.

Bill (01:08:36):
Um it's a very appealing sin, in all honesty, right?
Um but but a workaholic is alsoguilty of sloth because the
actual understanding of the sinof sloth is failure to um to put
your time and your energy andyour um your attention into the
things in life that matter.
So to work nonstop at a jobthat pays minimum wage or less

(01:09:01):
and um you know, neglect yourfamily, neglect your
relationships, your ownwell-being, your health, your
livelihood, your joy, all ofthat is as slothful as never
getting off the couch and youknow, binging Netflix 24-7,
right?
So um, but it's also um likesloth is also the complete and
utter apathy we see right nowtowards everything that we know

(01:09:26):
is breaking down in our world,right?
And and it it looks soconveniently simple as um I've
served my time, right?
Um yes, this this cause stillneeds you know people to fight
for it, but I've done my time.
Um or um I'm uh it I'm notcapable of doing anything about

(01:09:47):
this, so I'm going to choose todo nothing, right?
Like it, we we tell ourselvesso many, or it's happening south
of the border, so it doesn'tmatter here, right?
Or it's it's on the other sideof the world, so it doesn't
impact us here.
That is the that is what makesit so strange and insidious,
right?
Is that it it doesn't comeacross as just sit on the couch.
We have so many really greatreasons why it's not our fight,

(01:10:11):
it's not our cause, it's not ouraction, it's not our time, it's
not our you know, our ourthing.
Um and in the middle of it all,everything continues to spiral,
and we all keep saying the samething to ourselves and each
other.
So for me, that would be thatwould be the one that I see the
most right now.
We know things are not as theyought to be.

(01:10:33):
Um globally, in ourcommunities, in our
relationships, like wherever itis, we know things are not as
they're supposed to be.
Um we have a long list ofreasons why it's not for us to
fix it.
Um and I say that painting witha broad brush, because there
are plenty like Pam, you standon the front lines of more
fights than I know how you havetime for.

(01:10:55):
Um but uh but I'm painting witha very broad brush when I say
that there are fewer and fewerpeople standing in the breach
trying to prop these.

Ricardo (01:11:03):
It's also interesting where people stand in the breach
and in defense of what, right?
And well, who or what they'rewilling to sin for.
Um and I often think about likepeople protesting um companies
who treat or mistreat workers orindigenous communities in Latin
America or like Amazon.

(01:11:23):
Sorry, I shouldn't say thecompany, but his company.
And like their their globaltheir global reach now on I
remember what Amazon was like ajust a book company.
Yeah, do you remember?
And now they're just puttingsmall businesses out of business
like left, right, and center,right?
And people are still like, oh,that's horrible.

Bill (01:11:40):
But before Amazon it was Walmart, before Walmart it was
chapters, but like I mean, youthe the arc is long and proud.

Ricardo (01:11:47):
So when when people are saying, like, uh, you know,
these people are suffering andthat people are suffering, and I
think we do naturally havemaybe it's just sympathy versus
empathy, like you said.
Um and there's a and I I alwaysI always remember that that
that quote that I saw where it'slike we all in this room have
more in common with the homelessperson, the unhoused person on

(01:12:08):
the street than we do with thebillionaires.
For sure.
But if we have a roof over ourhead and we drive a car and we
have food in our cupboards, wethink we have more in common
with the billionaire than theunhoused person.
And and that in itself causesus to do some remarkable things
to each other um and havedisdain for that person who's

(01:12:28):
living on the street rather thandisdain for that billionaire
that is treating his workerslike garbage and and
steamrolling across naturalhabitats and um polluting the
environment.
We we we don't turn a blessing.
So I when I said earlier, like,you know, um the sin against
each other, uh but at what costto ourselves?

(01:12:48):
Uh and in in what sense and inwhat world do we have to come to
where survival mode is also notconsidered a sin, but it's
considered like surviving,right?
And how do we how how how do weoverlook that?

Joanne (01:13:00):
Um well, and you said this, right?
It's like because people are ina state of not, you know, of
fear, they're not gonna go onand do a general strike because
they're afraid they'll losetheir job, right?

Bill (01:13:14):
Yeah.
Um I think there's a differencebetween like when you talk
about survival mode, you mayneed to clarify for me because
um we know that there in theUnited Church of Canada
especially, we know aboutsystemic sin.
We know about the idea thatthere are there are systems and
there are structures in theworld that actively work to put
people in a place below you knowtheir their God-given right to

(01:13:38):
dignity and and compassion andhumanity.
And we know that the systemworks very hard to keep people
there, which leads to a lot ofpeople ending up with undercover
police officers working, youknow, hanging out with them,
figuring out, you know, just howfar and how deep it goes, um,
and and then making some reallyterrible decisions that on one
hand could be the Jean Valjeansof Les Miz, but also can be the

(01:14:00):
the Nickies of the world aswell, right?
Um, and and and so like we getall so there's I think there's a
difference between trying tosurvive in an unjust system.
I don't think that's sinful.

Ricardo (01:14:10):
I think that's I think the most obvious example of sin
that I can think of that peoplewould consider sin is what's
prevalent in today's society istheft.
Um if everyone's been to agrocery store these days, there
are bars and plexiglasses andgates for you to not be able to
go into certain doors and alland they're spending millions

(01:14:30):
and billions all in the name ofkeeping Black Forest ham safe,
right?
But let's call it what it is,right?
If somebody steals an apple,and then people who can afford
the groceries in the grocerystore say to themselves, part of
the reason why groceries havegone up in price is all this
theft.
But there's no economy of scalein people's heads where you

(01:14:53):
know, if these grocery storesmake billions and gazillions of
dollars, theft is not theproblem, right?
Um, the or the biggest problem,I should say.
Um, but we are quick to judgethose people that steal.
And and I'll give you anexample of how I encounter it in
my line of work.
Um, you know, you have workersthat are paid a wage that is
unsurvivable.

(01:15:14):
And I our Safeway campaignright now is that a lot of our
workers in those stores can'tafford to shop where they work.
Uh, and sometimes they steal,and um, they steal to eat.
And I came from a world or Icame from an upbringing in
Christianity where forgivenessis is important.
And um, if somebody makes amistake or somebody does all of

(01:15:38):
a sudden, I live in a world nowwhere stealing a chocolate bar
is fatal to somebody's lifelongcareer.
Uh, and grocery stores willfire employees for lifelong
careers.

Joanne (01:15:47):
I'm scared now.
I didn't want to watch by I'veadmitted.

Ricardo (01:15:50):
But yes, it's I just battled somebody who worked at
the Safeway store for 37 years,popped three blueberries in
their mouth, and they wanted tofire him.
37 years.
Okay.
And that's that's what I'mtalking about, right?
Um, when I'm saying, like, whendo we start um showing mercy

(01:16:11):
and and forgiveness for thesesins and and start start
understanding the root cause ofwhy people do those things,
right?
Um, and you were right too,we're not born bad people, and
they're the external factors,Dave, where you said that that
influence who we are today, butsome of those external factors
are like more than just what wewere taught by our parents,
right?
It's just the circumstance thatwe're in.
And that's the thing what Imean by survival, right?

Joanne (01:16:34):
And um, I think that um like we always have to draw a
distinction.
They always say you can'tlegislate morality, which is
really true.
You can't.
What I think the criminaljustice system does and all
these rules about that isenforce a social contract that
we perceive that we have madewith each other about how we

(01:16:55):
behave in society, right?
And everybody knows you canmake laws that are unjust.
You know, the whole civilrights movement was to overturn
laws that were unjust, and theywere enforced because that's the
law, because the empire saysthis is the social contract and
this is how we're all gonna getalong.
And what has happened is thatbecause there has been a
breakdown in the um, like whenyou have a contract, you get a

(01:17:18):
benefit.
And the benefits of the socialcontract have broken down for
people who work all day long andno longer can support
themselves.
And as that, the socialcontract frays around the edges,
and everyone knows, I think youcan understand that the social
contract is there to uh benefitthe wealthy and the powerful,

(01:17:38):
right?
That's why we have socialcontracts.
Um and um and what happens isthe the wealthy and the
powerful, then they then theytalk about the moral hazard.
Well, if you can steal, thenthe whole social contract's
gonna break down, right?
And so the difficulty of um ourculture is if we have a social

(01:18:02):
contract, it's broken downbecause the benefits have not
accrued to the entirepopulation.
Um, we need a new socialcontract, and that would include
uh this understanding thatthere shouldn't be billionaires.
That's way too much money toaccumulate in one person's uh
purse, that we need to talkabout justice that has includes

(01:18:25):
empathy, that doesn't meanaccountability is not there.
Forgiveness does not mean aperson is not accountable for
how they've hurt someone, butinstead of you broke the rules,
um, the way it in sin to me,instead of saying you you
sinned.
Like we used to have these sinidentities, you're a murderer,
you're an alcoholic, you're uhuh adulterer, whatever, and that

(01:18:46):
defined you.
And we moved outside that andsay, okay, let's look at context
here.
Like, why did this happen?
Like you were saying, Dave,something has happened in their
lives to lead them down thispath where now they're selling
drugs or you know, um sitting inan interview room, yeah, across
from a police officer, allthose things.
So we got to think about umlike sort of the banality of

(01:19:10):
evil.
It's very easy to let things goaround the edges.
And Hannah Aaron said the onlything that can be truly radical
is good, because that's the onlything that contains anything
worth worthwhile.
Um, we need a new socialcontract because the one that we
had that was created around theidea of capitalism and the

(01:19:31):
moral actors, and there isenough for everyone, is gone.
And when we do that, then wecan say it is in instead of
saying he stole threeblueberries, we can say it is
unjust that he works all day anddoes not have enough to feed
his family.
That's the that's the shiftthat we as a culture need to do.

(01:19:52):
The sin in our culture, thesystemic sin, is that we have
created a space where uh therules define how people are
treated instead of the uhjustice of the situation.

Pam (01:20:08):
To to go back to billionaires shouldn't exist,
um, which is so true.
I it's wild to me now, likethinking about you know, we have
lists of billionaires andthey've been on the cover of
time, and everyone's like, oh mygosh, look at all what they
have, right?
Like it's with how the world isand with how many people are

(01:20:33):
suffering, just because theycan't, you know, children.
Let's just say just how manychildren are are suffering who
literally have done nothingwrong but but exist.
And there's actually enough inthe world for everybody to be
okay.
I don't understand whybillionaires aren't like like
the top 10 criminals.

(01:20:53):
Right.
And I mean, I love Oprah asmuch as much as the next person.
Um but you can't acquire thatwealth without people suffering.
You can't acquire, like,there's no fair way for that to
happen.
And and so we were talkingactually about you know before

(01:21:15):
the show, like there's no suchthing as an ethical billionaire.
Like you cannot accumulate andsit on that amount of wealth
ethically, and and yet there'sstill some sort of like
allowance for that, like we'rewe're allowing it to happen.
Exactly.
We're we actually celebrate it.
We think, you know, we we stillwant the possibility that we

(01:21:37):
could be there in that positionone day.
And I remember thinking I likeI I was at the zoo and watching
gorillas is fascinating.
They have the a whole socialhierarchy that's very
interesting.
And because they share a lot ofhuman traits, like you know,
there's something that thatfeels familiar about watching

(01:22:00):
them.
And I remember watching uh, youknow, sort of the patriarch of
this, you know, one group ofgorillas.
Uh there was this big pile offood that was set out, and
there's, you know, he's thebiggest one, right?
And there's all these smallones kind of, you know, walking
around trying to like get alittle piece of lettuce, a
little piece of cabbage, youknow, a potato, right?

(01:22:22):
And he'd literally go over andlike smack it out of their hand
and be like, wait, remember,like I am number one.
There'd be like little babiesgoing over, and I was sitting
there, oh my gosh, I can'tbelieve this, right?
Like this is so mean, right?
And and yet we allow the sameexact thing to happen.

(01:22:44):
So if if we saw, you know, in aif we had, you know, if we
could watch just in real timewhat's happening in the world,
and there was 10 people, youknow, and we're watching, and
one of them has like all of thefood, you know, the next one has
like enough for like a littlewhile.
And then as you go down, mostof them like barely have enough.

(01:23:06):
And if we watch that for oneday, we would say, like, this is
this is ridiculous.
These people are gonna die.
This is not right.
But that's exactly what'shappening in our society, and so
this, you know, I was thinkingwhenever we think about sin, uh,
you know, for me, it conjuresup the concept and the mythology

(01:23:29):
of hell, which also we got alot of our information on what
hell is from Dante.
Um, like we are making hell orheaven on earth every day for
people.
And so, you know, I think wehave to really consider, like
you said, Joanne, like thesocial contract uh is is broken,

(01:23:53):
the system is broken.
And so, how can we, in our ownlittle ways, one by one, be a
part of you know, making surethat this is not the society
that we glorify?
Um, because heaven forbid,like, you know, that everyone be
fed and that somebody just doesit has a one less zero in their

(01:24:15):
account.

Bill (01:24:17):
So um making making heaven or hell on earth every day.
Um I'm gonna segue because Ihave one question that I do want
to make sure we cover before weend tonight.
But I'm gonna actually start bysaying that uh um I feel like
that might actually be a greattime for you to tell the story
about where your mantra camefrom.
Um because uh the idea ofleaving people better than you

(01:24:40):
found them uh would be exactlyhow it is that you create heaven
on earth every day.

Dave (01:24:48):
For the person that you hopefully you leave better,
right?
Yeah.
And for yourself too.
Absolutely.

Bill (01:24:54):
Yeah, yeah.
Um it's a it works as a segue,yeah.
Yeah, it does work.
That was brilliant.

Dave (01:25:03):
Um yeah, so my story actually was one of my very
early, I guess, teachings as ayoung whippersnapper of a police
officer.
I was uh working with a verysenior officer.
He was policing before theCharter of Rights and Freedoms.
So many of them were back inthe uh late 90s because the

(01:25:25):
charter hadn't been out for morethan about 10 years, which is
relatively new legislation.
And um, so anyways, uh we wereworking together and we'd gone
to a a um a housebreak andenter.
And back then, being 24 andwanting to catch bad guys all
day long, um, going to ahousebreak and enter to to

(01:25:49):
basically do the paperwork uhisn't that exciting, but uh
that's one of the things thatyou have to do.
And so on that particularnight, uh my partner and I go
and we when we get there, wemeet with an elderly woman.
She had just recently lost herhusband.
Um, she was living on her own,and some creep had come into her
home for greed or whatever itwould be, uh, and uh uh went

(01:26:16):
through her underwear drawer anddid a bunch of things just to
make her feel just very, veryuncomfortable in her space.
Yeah.
And so regardless, because I'mthe new guy and there was a
hierarchy like the gorillas, umcan't get away from it.

Pam (01:26:33):
I was I was I was gonna go.

Dave (01:26:35):
I was I was gonna get uh I was got swatted to do
everything in the house thatnight uh while he sat and
visited with her.
And uh so I did what I wassupposed to do.
I went through the home, Ifound found my point of entry,
my point of exit, made sure I,you know, called for the crime
scenes to come over and do somefingerprinting, uh, went out and
spoke to the neighbors, see ifanybody saw something

(01:26:57):
suspicious.
And uh it was during thisperiod of time I was getting
everything gathered up from myreport uh when I hear over the
radio that um a teammate of minewas in behind a stolen car.
Well, back in the 1990s, if yougot in behind a stolen car and
you turn on your lights, therewas going to be a police
pursuit.

(01:27:17):
Now that's way more fun for a24-year-old.
Yeah, right.
And so I remember hearing Chevyand Paula's.
Yeah, crowned victorious.

Ricardo (01:27:29):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dave (01:27:31):
So yeah, so I'm listening to my teammate call in this
stolen vehicle, and I'm and I uhso I kind of go racing back
into the house and I say to mypartner at the time, I said, um,
I don't know if you heard, butyou know, you know, you know,
1330, whatever, was fallingbehind a stolen vehicle, and we
should go.
And he kind of shushed me,right?

(01:27:52):
As he continued to talk to thethe uh the lady inside the home.
And he was asking her all theseridiculous questions like, uh,
who's that on, who's that apicture of on the mantle of her
fireplace?
Uh and she would say, Oh, itwas my granddaughter, or that
was my grandson, or what haveyou.
Well, I'm very, very impatientand I want to get going.
And if I get into the policecar, we can still join the

(01:28:12):
what's going to be a policechase.
So I leave.
I leave the uh the house.
I get into the police car andI'm sitting in the passenger
seat because I wasn't allowed todrive.
And um and I got the radiocranked up and I'm waiting for
my partner, and uh I hearexactly what happens.
The units behind this stolenvehicle, turn on the lights,

(01:28:35):
siren, police chase, car crash,bad guy out, run, foot chase,
best call of the night, and Imissed the whole thing.
Anyways, uh a few minutes afterthis all transpires, my partner
finally comes out of the house,gets into the car uh with his
little square glasses that hewould wear on the tip of his

(01:28:55):
nose.
He dropped it down and he says,You need to understand
something.
And he was very, very curt inthe way he spoke to me.
Uh, if you and I are gonna worktogether, we're going to
venture to do one thing.
And I said, What's that?
He goes, We are going to alwaysleave people in a better place
than we found them.
You missed the whole entireconcept of speaking to this lady

(01:29:19):
for as long as I did.
She had just gone through avery, very traumatic incident.
I spent many minutes uhspeaking to her about her
family, reminding her about herfamily, um, how fortunate she
was to have a family.
And all of those things.
When we left today, she wasthinking more about her family
and the love and support thatshe had from them than she was

(01:29:41):
ever going to be about somecreep that had been into the
house.
And from that point forward, itwas something that kind of
stuck, and it was a big mantrathat I kind of carried through
in my career.
So whenever I had anopportunity, I always tried to
do something.
And we can do that every day.
You know, before you leave forwork in the morning.
And you know, you make sure youkiss your wife on the cheek, or

(01:30:04):
um you that's leaving her in abit of a better place than you
found her, right?
You acknowledge your childrenand their day at school and you
spend a little bit of timetalking to them about stuff that
probably bores you, but itmakes them feel a little bit
better.
It's leaving them in a betterplace.
And I think if we kind of alltry to do that, it doesn't take

(01:30:27):
too much to be that way.
And uh another officer muchlater on said, you know, it
doesn't take much to be a littlebit better than average, and
they weren't wrong about thateither.
So and uh bit better thanaverage is really just doing
something to leave somebody in abetter place.
So yeah, that's that's thestory around that.

Joanne (01:30:48):
And that is uh how you I was gonna say that's very
Christian of you.

Dave (01:30:55):
It's very good of me for sure.

Bill (01:31:00):
So last question of the night before we go to closing
comments, uh, because I dobelieve that uh as much as the
language of sin and everythingfrom Augustine, even even some
of how we we we pivoted thelanguage of hell and the
descriptions of hell from Dantehas been horribly misused.
But we have also talked aboutthe idea that like forgiveness

(01:31:20):
does not mean no accountability.
We uh sin, I think at its coreis meant to inform us on the
reality that how we carry eachother matters, or how we how we
don't carry each other mattersfor ourselves, for each other,
for our world, right?
So, how do we reframe all ofthis in a way that doesn't throw

(01:31:41):
away the reality that we are inrelationship with one another,
and how we choose to uh beintentional in those
relationships matters withoutthe um the shameless misuse, the
control, the fear, the guilt,the shame?
How do we, I'm not, I'm notgonna say even um reclaim sin

(01:32:02):
because that may not actually bewhat the exercise is, but there
is also such a thing asthrowing out the baby with the
bathwater, I believe is theidiom, right?
So um, how do we um keep whatis important for our mutual
growth and thriving and care andcompassion and humanity um and

(01:32:23):
let the rest of it go withintegrity as well?
That is the question to whoeverwould like to.

Pam (01:32:31):
The first thing I think of is wherever we're at, like we
can always use more stories fromdifferent perspectives and
experience in our lives.
This is something we cancontrol.
So I'm a huge podcast nerd, soI have to put Dave's podcast on
my on my feed.

Bill (01:32:53):
I've loved every episode so far, it's been really good.

Pam (01:32:56):
I said Dave fascinates me.
I'm just looking at him.
I'm like, who is this formercop?
This is so interesting.
But um, but I I listen to a lotof podcasts, and and something
that that it does for me is itreminds me of all of the

(01:33:16):
different ways that humans areexperiencing and going through
life.
Um there's uh there's a one byAlan Alda, if anyone remembers
Alan Alda from MASH, and it'scalled Clear and Vivid, and it
it's all about empathy building,and it's phenomenal.

(01:33:38):
And I just try to always putdifferent stories from different
people, even people Icompletely disagree with, in my
head to remind me that I'm notthe center of the universe, that
other people are experiencingthings that maybe are similar to
me.
Um, other people areexperiencing things that I have

(01:34:01):
no idea how they're making itthrough.
And I think that that hasreally helped me remember like
empathy is a muscle.
It's something that we can loseif we don't use it, it's
something that we can strengthenif we use it.
And no matter how much money wehave, we can always grow it.

(01:34:23):
No matter what we're lacking,like we can always grow it.
And so, like to me, and one ofthe antidotes to what we're
talking about is like makingsure that we understand that
we're not the only person, we'renot the only experience.

(01:34:45):
Um, not only for ourselves toremind ourselves that we're not
alone, but to remind ourselveslike I might actually need to
care about this thing that Idon't think has anything to do
with me.
But now that I've heard anotherhuman and and how they're
experiencing it, wow, I think Ihave to care about this now.

(01:35:06):
And so I follow people onsocial media who are gonna
remind me of how to live outempathy because I usually don't
want to, you know.
Um none of us are altruisticabout it.
So I try to just put in mydaily life people and uh stories

(01:35:27):
that are going to hopefullyhelp me be grounded in
humanizing everybody around me.

Dave (01:35:40):
Uh when I think of um forgiving, like I I like I'd
like to go to that concept ofthe forgiveness.
I think about a woman, amother, whose daughter was
standing outside of a nightclubone night, um many years ago
now, and um she was out there inthe at the end of the night, uh

(01:36:03):
the bars were closing, and umsomeone that was very careless
with a handgun was shooting itoff into the the air and then
pointed the gun into a crowd of30 people and uh one of the um
bullets uh ripped through theair and caught her perfectly in
the chest, and she she droppeddead right there.

(01:36:23):
It was a completely likeunnecessary thing to have
happened.
Um, she wasn't bitter about it.
She actually she goes back toher her faith, actually, and and
believed that her daughter's ummurder was fated.
Um and so this maybe helped hera little bit, but by giving

(01:36:47):
forgiveness to the young man,she put him on a path to be able
to um accept that and apologizefor his actions, right?
And I and I I very seldom doyou sit in a courtroom and and
watch uh an accused personactually speak from their heart,

(01:37:09):
but uh he wouldn't have had theum ability to do that or uh if
she hadn't have put him on thatpath through from for with her
forgiveness.
And I think it's just a very,very powerful reminder how
important it is that we we do dothat because I think it does
put people on a path where theycan exit a situation with some

(01:37:31):
level of grace if we can useforgiveness as a way to do that.
So that would be just my twocents.

Joanne (01:37:39):
That reminds me of the uh movie story um dead men
walking, you know, where the nunwalked with this murderer, and
it was like you care more abouthim than us.
And the last thing she didbefore he died was say, you need
to, you need to be accountablefor what you did, you know,
because he was always makingexcuses.
Um and you need to recognizethat you did, you know, you

(01:38:01):
murdered and you did wrong.
Um, and I think that's wherewhen I think about sin from a
religious or theological pointof view, we forget about the
sanctification part, right?
So it's only good that we gotrid of sin identities in the
sense of you know, you are amurderer, and that's the only

(01:38:25):
thing that defines you.
Because I always say I wouldhate to be defined by the worst
day of my life or the rest of mylife, right?
So sin identities, everybody isbeloved, and we do things that
are out of sync with how Godwants us to live.
You know, like I say, theblueprint that God has for us.
That's where sin happens.

(01:38:47):
We miss the mark, you know, uhthe Greek word, that's what that
means.
Sin means.
We miss the mark.
We don't do what we know isbest for us.
What God has put in our hearts,they say, the laws in your
heart.
You know, we know as humanbeings what good is and what bad
is or evil.
We know it and we ignore it andwe end up straying off the path

(01:39:10):
and sinning, right?
Um, it doesn't do us anybenefit as a progressive church
or liberal church to just alwaysconcentrate on systemic sin,
how the empire, you know, rulesus, how the social contract has
broken down, as much as Iadvocate that kind of talking
all the time.
Because we as human beings missthe mark.

(01:39:31):
We treat each other in waysthat we shouldn't.
We get angry when we know it'snot justified, you know, we uh
dismiss our children when weshould be uh paying attention to
them.
We have always in our livesthings where we know we've
missed the mark.
And so the concept ofsanctification, first of all,
confession is a good thing tocome clean, right?

(01:39:54):
To just say, I messed up, I'msorry.
Confession is an importantthing.
It's not a Catholic thing, it'sjust a human thing.

Ricardo (01:40:01):
Oh, just what is forgive me, Father, for I'm
sorry.

Joanne (01:40:06):
I my brother-in-law calls me father sometimes just
because I'm a minister.
But um but this idea thatsanctification is always this
sense of you can be better.
And your life is a journeytowards becoming better and
missing the mark less and beingon the path in a way that is uh

(01:40:29):
closer to the blueprint that Godhas for humanity.
And if we all took seriouslyour own need for sanctification,
for being better people, ourworld would be better too, you
know.
So I think it starts uh with usas individuals not beating
ourselves up anymore becausesomeone told us we'd sinned, but

(01:40:51):
at least recognizing we arehuman and we can do better.
And our journey as humanity isto come to a place where, you
know, in in the words of ourfaith, as we become more
Christ-like as we move throughour lives, that's how we uh
combat the idea of sinovertaking us and the world.

Ricardo (01:41:15):
I I will say that um what I've I think I've said
throughout this episode is thatsin is um uh sometimes a
reaction to a circumstance thatthat is brought upon us and how
we react to that.
But you know, um how how wetreat ourselves is just as
important as how we treat eachother.
And and this and and theconcept of sin.

(01:41:36):
Um, I mean, if if I grew upknowing and thinking that sin
was evil, um then what Pamalluded to was the fact that
like the good that you've done,but at what cost is that not sin
as well, right?
Or what you've earned in yourlife at what cost is that not
sin as well?
Even though the billionaires inthe world's hands are clean,

(01:41:57):
they're still stained with bloodin some in so many ways, right?
So I I always think like whatyou know, this episode made me
think of Tommy Douglas when hesaid, like, you know, we're all
in this world together, and theonly test of our character that
matters is how we look after theleast fortunate among us.
And how we look after the howwe look after each other and not
how we look after ourselves.
That's what really matters, Ithink.

(01:42:19):
And I'll add one word into thatquote, Mr.
Douglas, and it's not how wetreat each other and not just
how we treat ourselves, becauseit's just as important to be
able to treat ourselves well andand take care of our mental
health and and all these thingsand and not act, because you're
absolutely right, Joanne.
We as human beings, we we weget angry before we we we think

(01:42:39):
we speak before we think in manyin many different ways.
We act before we think, andit's a natural reaction to
whatever stressors exist in ourworld.
And um I think that we in theChristian tradition were taught
that those natural reactionsthat we have to that have
negative consequences or orresults um were a bad thing

(01:43:01):
rather than us looking at eachother and saying, like, how can
we build upon it, learn and growand um and and do better?
And uh on the break, uh Dave,you were saying like uh some of
the tr traumatic things thathappen to police officers and
some of the things they see inthe course of their careers are
always addressed in a negativelight.
But you know, there is apossibility for us to learn from

(01:43:22):
these examples of things andgrow and be better people
ourselves and as a humanity.
Like um, I often think of likemy brother works in the force as
well right now, too, and heprobably works in one of the
most complicated areas.
I don't forget what it'scalled, but um, I always think
to him, like, how do you notbring all that stuff home with
you, right?
Um, maybe he does, I don'tknow.
Maybe he's just really nice atThanksgiving and right.

(01:43:46):
But uh He's undercover.
Yeah, yeah, right, right,right.
Um, and I think that's curingcuring the root the root cause
of what we perceive as sin umwill all boil down to curing the
root cause of how we treat eachother and how we treat
ourselves um in the long in thelong run, I think.

(01:44:07):
So um that's really what I haveto say.

Bill (01:44:12):
Well, sounds like a good place, as any to kind of wind it
up.
So uh just to to kind of pullit all together.
First off, um my thanks toRicardo and Joanne as always uh
for tonight, but uh specialthanks to both Dave and Pam for
being here.
This has been a fantasticevening of conversation.
And to everybody in our liveaudience that is here tonight,

(01:44:33):
thanks for being here and uh andbeing a part of this, and to
everybody that is uh listeningonline as well.
Thanks uh for continuing tolisten.
And uh you can certainly checkus out on our website, uh,
Patreon, anywhere you get yourpodcasts.
Uh like, subscribe, definitelycheck out uh Skeletons in my
closet and uh Dauntless by DavidSweet.

(01:44:55):
He has co-writers as well whosenames I'm gonna forget right
now, but that's okay.
Um, and the Ride Along podcast,uh, I'm almost done it, so uh
definitely uh check that out aswell.
Uh just uh remember that we canbe better, uh, but that is not
because we are broken.
It is because we are human.

(01:45:16):
Uh so whoever you are.

Joanne (01:45:18):
What's the pink says we're not broken, just bent, and
we can learn to love again?

Bill (01:45:24):
Absolutely.
Fair enough.
Uh but um perhaps uh perhapsthe way we do that is uh by by
finding a way to leave people ina better place than we found
them.
And maybe in so doing we willalso find a way to leave
ourselves in a better place thanwe found ourselves as well.
So uh there is a story in theGospels that ends with uh then

(01:45:48):
uh then go and do not sin again.
And uh maybe that's how weleave it tonight.
Uh go out and uh and if you'regonna sin, uh just know that God
loves you in the midst of itall, and uh you are not defined
by your failures.
You are defined and held alwaysin grace.
So thank you and good night.

(01:46:11):
And that's where we're gonnaleave it for tonight, folks.
Thanks for being part of theconversation and for diving in
with open minds and open hearts.
If something you heard tonightstirred a question, stay with
it.
Keep wrestling, keep wondering,and keep talking about it with
the people around you becausethat's where change begins.
You can catch past episodes andbonus reflections at

(01:46:31):
preparedrown.com or join us onPatreon to help keep these
conversations going.
And wherever you listen topodcasts, make sure you hit
subscribe so you don't misswhat's next.
I'm Bill Weaver, and this hasbeen Prepared to Drown.
Until next time, stay curious,stay kind, and keep showing up
for one another with all themessy, beautiful humanity you
can muster.

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Episode 13 - Sink or Sin

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 13 - Sink or Sin