Episode 5 - The "Love" Boat: Just How Many People Are We Fitting In Here? - Prepared to Drown: Deep Dives into an Expansive Faith

Episode Transcript
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Bill (00:01):
Hey there, folks.
Before we dive into today'sepisode, a quick heads up.
If you had asked me years agowhether or not I would have ever
been responsible for a churchpodcast that had an explicit
content warning, I would havetold you you were nuts.
But here we are tonight talkingabout some important
things—sexual health, consent,dignity and bodily autonomy and

(00:22):
these are all topics thatdeserve open and honest
conversation, especially in thecontext of faith and life.
But let's be real, this mightnot be the episode to blast on
the car speakers during schoolpickup.
Now I want to be clear that wedo believe that conversations
about our bodies and consent andethical relationships should
absolutely be had with children,because, let's be honest, many

(00:44):
of us grew up hearing messagesthat framed sexuality in harmful
ways.
Maybe you were told that if youhad sex before marriage, you'd
be like a chewed up piece of gumor a trampled flower or a tape
strip that's lost its stickiness.
And those messages weren't justbad metaphors in their day.
They were harmful and theytaught us to see ourselves and
others through the lens of shamerather than dignity.

(01:05):
Now, all of that being said,the conversation to have with
young children about sexualityand consent and agency over your
body is probably not theconversation you're about to
listen to on this podcast.
So I want to be really clear.
If you've got little earsnearby, now is a great time to
let Bluey take the wheel for abit, or maybe wait until you can

(01:27):
get the kids put to bed firstand then listen with your
headphones on somewhere else.
Now consider yourselves warnedOn with the show.
Here's the deal, friends.
We are talking about sextonight, sort of.
We're talking about what faithhas to say about desire,
relationships and all the weird,wonderful, messy ways we try to

(01:49):
love each other.
No purity rings, no shame, nobad 90s youth group analogies,
just an honest conversationabout what a healthy,
life-giving sexual ethic couldactually look like.
There's a line in a church hymnthat says you'll never walk on
water if you're not prepared todrown.
And let's be honest, when itcomes to this particular topic,

(02:11):
a lot of us are wonderingwhether or not we've just been
thrown in the deep end withabsolutely no flotation device
in sight.
We might not have all theanswers, but I'm Bill Weaver and
this is our spicy Valentine'sprepared to drown deep dives
into an expanse of faith.
Welcome to our deep dive intosex and faith and why.
How you love will neverdetermine if you're worthy of
love.
And so here we are, on a warmFebruary evening here in Calgary

(02:35):
, alberta, in the basement ofMcDougall United Church, for our
February Valentine's themedepisode of Prepared to Drown.
And I'm going to do somethingdifferent this time than we've
done in the past.
I'm going to try to set a bitof context for this one, because
my greatest fear is that wecould run down some trails that
I really don't want to run downtonight, if we can at all avoid

(02:57):
it.
So when I was a teenager, notthat long ago, not that long ago
, I was dating a girl, totallyenamored with this girl.
We, you know, we went to school, dances together and movies and
concerts and we'd hold hands ifher parents weren't around and
all that kind of cute stuff.
And I can remember our firstkiss, and it was actually my

(03:20):
first kiss ever.
And I can also remember thenext day when she came to school
and broke up with me becauseshe had talked with her youth
pastor and had been remindedthat she was supposed to be
saving herself for Jesus andthat she was wearing a ring that
was a promised sort of purity.

(03:41):
Whatever ring that all of thegirls in their youth group had
been wearing and it reflected acommitment to remain pure and
chaste and all of this kind ofstuff.
So I found girls in my lifebefore I found Jesus and I was
not a big fan of Jesus and I wasnot a big fan of Jesus.

(04:25):
So we're talking tonight aboutlove and sexuality and
relationships and intimacy andkind of that whole big, almost
taboo.
Grown up hearing certainmessages about sex and
relationships and maybe arestill growing up hearing about
sex and relationships andcertain messages about it, and
these would be messages thattell us things like desire is
dangerous or that good peoplefollow a very strict and
specific kind of script as tohow it is that we engage in love
and intimacy and that if youdeviate from that script in any

(04:48):
way, then you're tarnishing yourworth and potentially also
going to hell in the process.
So maybe we were taught thatsex outside of marriage is a sin
, or maybe we were taught thatmen are supposed to be dominant
and women are supposed to besubmissive.
Maybe we were led to believethat sexuality is only meant for

(05:09):
the young and that as you age,somehow your desire becomes less
valid, and these messages comefrom what's often called purity
culture.
Purity culture, and when we talkabout purity culture, we're
referring to a belief systemthat was often rooted in
conservative Christian teachingsthat framed sex as being

(05:30):
something to be feared andcontrolled and restricted and
policed, rather than somethingthat we should be nurturing and
celebrating and exploring andhonoring.
So purity culture tends tofocus on abstinence before
marriage and rigid gender rolesand the idea that a person's
worth, especially women's worth,can be tied to their sexual

(05:53):
behavior and their reputation,and even just the optics of
their lifestyles.
The thing about purity cultureis that it has shaped a lot of
Christian teaching on sexualityand it uses rigid
interpretations of scripture toreinforce very patriarchal
control over women's bodies anderases the beauty and integrity

(06:15):
and validity of 2SLGBTQ plusrelationships.
It erases positive body imageand positive sexuality while
aging and it erases all of thediverse expressions of love that
we actually have in our worldto partake of.
And these messages don't justaffect young people, and I want

(06:39):
to be clear about that, becausethey have shaped and continue to
shape how we view relationshipsand bodies and desire
throughout the entirety of ourlives, and for many, those
teachings leave very deep woundsof shame and silence and fear
fear of our own bodies,inability to talk about things
like consent in safe spaces,talk about pleasure, even talk

(07:01):
about sexuality and sexualhealth especially.
I am learning as we age, and tobe able to talk about things in
ways that are honest andlife-giving is something that is
actually suppressed by purityculture, and so the reason why
we are talking about it on ourChurchy podcast is because at

(07:23):
the heart of the gospel we don'tfind a God who's obsessed with
shame and control or rigid rulesabout sexuality.
Instead, we see a God who callsus into freedom and dignity and
abundant life, and that's alife where our whole selves,
including our bodies and ourdesires, are seen and known and
loved.
We're told that from the verybeginning of our scriptures that

(07:47):
we are made in the image of God, and that means that our
capacity for love and intimacyand deep connection is not
something to be feared orsuppressed, but something that
we are supposed to see as beingwoven into us by a creator that
loves us and delights in who weare.
So on tonight's podcast, wewant to explore what it means to
move beyond some of thelimiting narratives that we have

(08:08):
had in our faith and in ourculture, especially purity
culture narratives, and want tolook at how we might be able to
embrace a vision of intimacy andsexuality that is healthy and
ethical and rooted in dignityand love and responsibility and
joy, not as something to beashamed of, but as something
that is a sacred part of ourhumanity and a gift from God in

(08:30):
all of its forms.
Now, let's be honest.
If I were to do a survey of allmy partners, my ex-girlfriends,
they'd be saying you're not theguy to be talking about this,
the guy to be talking about this.

(08:51):
So, in order for us to be ableto explore this topic with some
depth and integrity, we have twoincredible guests that are here
tonight to help us dive deepinto this conversation.
So at first I want to introduce, just to the right of Ricardo,
diana Wark, who is a registeredsocial worker and has been with
the Center for Sexuality since2007.
She's got over 25 years offrontline experience.
She's worked with diversepopulations, including sexually

(09:11):
exploited children and youth,sex workers, persons with
disabilities, older adults,parents, natural supports and
the LGBTQ2S plus community.
She is a facilitator.
She's committed to creatinglively and transformative
learning environments, both forcommunities and professionals.
She brings extensiveperspective and experience to

(09:34):
this conversation, especially asit relates to systemic barriers
that shape how individualsexperience sexuality,
relationships and dignity in theworld today.
So thank you, diana, for beinghere tonight, and I'm looking to
you to keep it lively.

Diana (09:48):
I'm here for it.

Bill (09:51):
And then, on the end, next to Joanne, we've got Jess
Andrews, who also has a rich anddiverse background that spans
nursing and outdoor educationand pastoral ministry and
psychotherapy and campuschaplaincy.
She's worked as a nurse inGhana and with the Little Red
River Cree community in northernAlberta.
She's spent 11 years in outdooreducation.
She's pastored a 2SLGBTQ plusaffirming Christian church.
Currently she splits her timebetween her role with Campus

(10:14):
United, which is the UnitedChurch of Canada campus ministry
at the University of Calgaryand at Mount Royal University
and her work as a certifiedCanadian counselor at Eckerd
Psychology.
Did I get all of that right?
Absolutely.
She's deeply passionate aboutguiding young adults through
faith exploration anddeconstruction and the search
for spiritual and relationalwholeness, and so, jess, we are
really grateful that you havejoined us here tonight as well.

(10:36):
And with all of that in mindand with all of this topic in
front of us, let's start byexamining purity culture as it's
shaped our understanding ofsexuality.
So I'm going to put it out tothe entire panel, whoever wants
to go first, because I havetalked enough.
How do you think purity culturehas shaped the way we've been
taught to think about sexuality,and what are the consequences

(10:57):
of those teachings that you seein your life and your work today
.

Joanne (11:01):
Okay, so first I have to tell you about my first kiss.
That happened in the basementof a church during a sanctioned
Valentine's Day party where theyouth minister pastor planned a
whole bunch of games where wewere kissing each other through
the kissing booth, blindfolded,all those things, so that purity

(11:26):
culture was not alive in mychurch in the late 70s.
I just got to say it is muchmore.

Bill (11:33):
But your church must have had a robust insurance policy.

Joanne (11:38):
I very highly doubt that .
But the youth group that thiswas part of had kids from grade
nine into college and the youthpastor decided because it got
out of hand, okay, as you canimagine, people went into the
Sunday school rooms and all overthe place and all kinds of
relationships started.

(11:58):
But the next day he decided heneeded to have a college group
and a high school group becausethat was just beyond the pale.
But honestly, that was beforeAnita Bryant and all her you
know anti-gay messaging andstuff.
The church was not so hung upon purity in the era when I grew
up as it is now for sure.

(12:19):
I just wanted to put that outthere.
That was my first kiss.

Ricardo (12:25):
Maybe Jesus was just better at teenage makeup than
you were.

Bill (12:29):
I have no doubt Jesus was probably better at it.

Ricardo (12:32):
My first kiss was at my Catholic junior high dance.
I seen John Debravo.
We snuck out the gym behind theportables and I kissed a girl
and I thought to myself yeah,I'm pretty gay.
I was not good at this and thisis not for me.

Bill (12:54):
I don't want to make our guests feel like they're
required to share this story.

Joanne (12:59):
Yeah, let's get back to purity culture.

Jess (13:02):
Let's get back to that.
I'm recovering from purityculture.
I'm in my 40s, still recovering, and my first kiss we lived on
a farm.
But just being on a farm, itwasn't isolated enough so we had
to, like, tromp through thedeep snow, through the
undergrowth, into the forest tobe private enough for me to feel
okay with having my first kiss.
Wow, that's amazing.

Joanne (13:27):
No, church basement, sunday school room for you then
no.

Jess (13:31):
People could have seen us.

Diana (13:35):
Well, that's so fascinating because, now I think
back.
I'm like I haven't thoughtabout my first kiss for a very
long time and I was a hot minuteaway from moving away from
Ottawa to Calgary and I was ingrade five and I was just on the
sidewalk and it was a goodbyekiss.
I'm like I can kiss this boybecause he's never going to see
me again and that set me on aninteresting path.

(13:57):
So again, no purity culture forme in the 70s either.
So interesting, yeah, yeah.

Jess (14:07):
I did hear a quote.
This is a quote from.
I'm quoting because I did asermon on purity culture a few
years ago, so I'm like, ooh, inprep for this podcast, I'm going
to review my sermon notes.
So this is.
Felicia Masonheimer said purityculture is the prosperity
gospel for millennials.
It's the if I perform, God willbless me.
If I don't perform there'sgoing to be a problem, right?

(14:28):
Yeah, interesting.

Joanne (14:30):
Or if you don't perform, then God will bless you, but if
you do perform, you're introuble.

Jess (14:37):
Good clarification yeah.

Diana (14:41):
Well, because I don't remember hearing about purity
culture until the 90s, so I'mnot I don't know how deeply
embedded it was in sort ofreligious communities and
practices sort of in the 70s and80s when I grew up, but
certainly once I started workingin my practice and started sort
of hearing about this idea, itwas quite fascinating.

(15:03):
And I do work with older adultsquite a lot and I think it's
purity culture, but not fromthat perspective of promising to
your dad or promising to Godand your dad, which sometimes
are one in the same in your mindwhen you're a young person that
you know you won't do any ofthese.
Whatever those things are,those bad things which I don't

(15:26):
think people actually definedwhat those things were.
But you do see the impact onpeople's relationships when they
don't feel like they can showup wholly who they are because
they've made a promise tosomeone outside of that intimate
relationship.
So it's quite fascinating.
I'm very curious relationship.

Joanne (15:48):
So it's quite fascinating.
I'm very curious that whole.
I think I remember the JonasBrothers put the ring on right
and the purity culture and thenone day it disappeared and
people were wondering whathappened.
But the thing that was most tome distressing about the whole
movement of purity culture,where these father-daughter like
dances, where dad would takehis daughter to a meal and a

(16:11):
dance and then at the end she'dput on a purity ring so that she
would save herself for herhusband, so it was really, I
think, really couched as as alot of sort of sexual
conversation is controllingfemale sexuality, controlling
women's, you know, freedom toexperience sexual relationships

(16:35):
without some man overseeing it.
And that, to me, was the mostlike to me.
It's disturbing that you, youknow, dad asks his daughter,
when she's like 12 years old, topromise to be pure.
It's just not, it's.

Bill (16:51):
It's so disturbing in terms of um, women's sexuality
and women's sexual freedom, Ithink, purity culture really,
and to even have any kind ofagency in the choice right, um,
or any kind of agency even inthe conversation yeah, yeah,
there's no power there.

Joanne (17:07):
It is interesting that young men also were, um, drawn
into this as well, into thepurity culture, because again
it's it has this whole thing,like you said, it's like god, uh
, doesn't like people who arenot saving themselves for their,
you know, the one that god haschosen.
Because again, in this there'sa god has chosen a person for

(17:28):
you and your job is to find thatperson and mate, you know.
And so it's all wrapped up inthis and I remember, even in the
70s, when they did things likethat, we talked about sex in a
way you know it'd be say, likeyou know, talked about sex in a
way you know it'd be say, likeyou know, having sex before
marriage is like gum that you'vechewed up and then you give it

(17:49):
to someone else afterwards, likeit was just all this shaming
content about sex.
That was really disturbing.
I mean, in my sort of religiousunraveling, the theology was a
lot easier to let go of than thesexual mores, for sure, and

(18:10):
that's weird.

Bill (18:13):
Do you know what I mean?
That's weird.

Joanne (18:16):
That you can go oh yeah, god is a she or God is a they
or all this stuff about God.
But, oh man, sex beforemarriage, or that's that's
something.
Because there's a verse in theBible that says it's better to
marry than to burn Right.
So in other words, like, if youhave all this passion in you,
get married, but otherwise don'tget married.

(18:36):
That's the apostle Paul said,cause he thought, oh man, you
know, jesus, come back nextTuesday.
Why get married?
You know, why give yourself inmarriage?
We all love God.
So, um man, it was like, andone of the things you know, when
I was a kid was like oh man, Ihope that I get married before
Jesus comes again because I wantto have sex.

(18:56):
Do you know?
Like this is weird, I'm justsaying people, it's weird.
Purity culture is weird and nothealthy.

Ricardo (19:06):
Protestants have interesting approaches, like us
in the Catholic Church.
You know it was nothing.
You couldn't really go to a manwho made the conscious effort
and decision to just live withpent-up sexual tension and ask
him what do I do?

Jess (19:20):
Because I'm I did, I did.
I'll tell you after.

Ricardo (19:26):
And the other problem is being a young boy and saying
that to a priest could have alsogone down a different path.

Diana (19:32):
You may not have been safe.
There's a lot of issues thatmight have come out of that.

Ricardo (19:35):
But so I found that, like the whole concept of purity
culture really, only I learnedabout it late in life when I
started studying and learningabout Protestant religions,
because at home we never reallytalked about sex much at all and
at church we never talked aboutsex at all ever, except for the

(19:56):
fact that all of a suddenpeople were told to have
children.
And then you learn about whatsex was in school.
So I can understand, maybe, whythe Protestant churches had to
enforce this narrative, becausethere was family dynamics
throughout the whole building.
The ministers were married tothe children and stuff like that
, and their children were havingthese teenage epiphanies and

(20:17):
behavioral….

Bill (20:17):
Well, apparently just go to Joanne's youth group yeah,
yeah, yeah.

Joanne (20:22):
It was a different time.

Ricardo (20:24):
It was a different time , so it's interesting in that
sense when I listen to everybody, when I listen to you, know but
what you've gone through inthat sense and what purity
culture means to you, becauseit's.
I mean, my first forays intolearning about sex was like Red
Shoe Diaries and the Hitchhikeron Showcase, and then you put
the volume really low on Sundayto listen to Sue Johansson on
the Sunday night section.

(20:44):
Oh yeah.

Diana (20:45):
That's right, my hero.
Otherwise it was.
It's true.

Ricardo (20:49):
Yes, I was professed to say that, like especially me
being a gay man throughout the90s and even the early 2000s,
there was next to nothing that Icould reflect upon in terms of
how to live a healthy gay life.
Yeah, you know, because theonly thing that we ever heard of
was that if you're gay, you'llprobably get AIDS at some point

(21:09):
in time Right.
Yeah, and it was very hard.
And so forget purity culture.
Like people are all telling me,like, oh you know, one day
you'll find a wife.

Joanne (21:22):
Actually, my parents thought I was going to become a
priest and that was when I cameout, that was like oh well, we
weren't expecting that there areno gay Catholic priests, just
so you know.
Zero.

Ricardo (21:34):
Zero.
So how we learn about sex andhow we learn about relationships
, especially through the lens ofreligion, is really quite
fascinating in that sense,because we almost ignore the
fact that divorce still exists.
Right, people get divorced inthe church and people have to

(21:56):
have their marriages annulled bythe church they were married in
in order to have some sort ofpathway to salvation if they
want to marry again and all thatkind of stuff, and so there's
also these aspects ofrelationships that are also very
complicated.

Bill (22:08):
Well, and not only that, but we also we ignore in the
church or at least pretend likewe don't you know, recognize in
the church that there's there'spolyamory and there's consensual
non-monogamy and you knowthere's there's so many other
ways that we actually engage inintimate relationships that
don't meet.
That you know kind ofstructured.
You know marriage fits all.
You know kind of relationshipsapproach that really kind of.

(22:47):
You know that even like that Ieven remember growing up with um
of sort of you know like youwait until you're married, um,
but I will say um, as a like Inever, I never had to encounter
purity culture in my own youknow kind of United church
experience, cause, um, I wasjust lucky.
but but you did encounter, like,I had a number of friends who

(23:09):
went to other churches whereagain sort of this idea of like
you gotta, you gotta wait forthe right one and you like,
there's sort of this overarchingidea of again there's a way to
behave in a way to be pure andrighteous and and and and, you
know, embrace your chosenness.
But there was always sort ofthe, the, the teenage reality,

(23:29):
the, you know.
But there's a whole lot ofother stuff you can do before
you actually, you know hit thatline.
That can be, just, as you know,gratifying and, you know, like,
still allow you to kind of workthe room and conquest and do all
this stuff that was just asdegrading and miserable and

(23:51):
unhealthy emotionally andphysically at the same time,
with no again, no open dialogue,no talk of safety, or you know,
the dignity of the peopleyou're doing this to, um, like
none of that mattered.
Right?
You could.
You could be the quintessentialhunter while also still being

(24:12):
100.
You know, halo glowing readyfor jesus when it happens, right
?
So?

Joanne (24:19):
yeah, it's like the only definition of sex is
heterosexual intercourse yeah.
Yeah, that's what sex is.
Everything else is just, youknow, up for grabs, and in a lot
of purity culture places thathappens.
The other thing about purityculture is the after marriage
sex as well, which is alsocontrolling women's bodies,

(24:41):
because a lot of these sort ofbro ministers in the states are
all talking about how great sexis.
And sex, you know, in marriageis really important.
It's so wonderful, but in thatis also this.
And wives, you can't say no toyour husbands ever and you got
to keep your body in shape sothat you're desirable to your
husband.
And there's all this controlover women's sexuality inside

(25:05):
this.
You know, because protestantsnever said sex was bad.
I think even the puritans feltlike sex was a, apart from the
shakers, right, they didn't,they didn't have sex at all.
But um, there aren't many ofthem left anymore and that's why
yeah, but but this whole ideaof, particularly in religion,

(25:29):
controlling women's sexualityinside and outside of marriage
is so prominent in this purityculture and that is something
that we need to resist as peopleof God who believe in healthy
and open sexuality.
I think it goes a step further.

Jess (25:48):
To me in my therapy practice, an area that I am most
passionate about is self-trustand purity culture, and I don't
think it was anyone's intentionexplicitly to disintegrate
self-trust before it even got achance to be built, but the

(26:08):
inhibition of self-trust is justtotally built into the
narrative that's alsointersecting with purity culture
, and so there's just so manythings that are wrong with that.
There's so much work that isrequired to be done to recover
self-trust, and it's very hardto live a healthy, fulfilled

(26:32):
life when you don't haveself-trust.

Joanne (26:35):
Explain more about self-trust in relation to
sexuality.
What would that look like?

Jess (26:52):
Well, who's the?

Diana (26:53):
authority over my body.
Is it external?
Is it internal?
Am I allowed to listen to mybody sensations?
Do I shut them off?
Do I stay in my head?
Am I allowed to explore my body?
Am I allowed to look at my body?
Am I allowed to name my bodyparts?
Yes, properly.
Am I allowed to know the namesof my body parts?
Do I have the language?
Can I advocate for myself?
Can I have agency and askquestions and look for resources

(27:13):
and all of those things thatself-management, that
self-agency, that self-esteem Isdesire, sinful, right yeah.

Joanne (27:22):
Well and here this is something that I was raised with
as well is that you know, withthat whole, is better to marry
than to burn?
Is that you do burn and youcan't trust yourself, do you
know?
So you, you have to putprotections all over in your
life to make sure that you don't, you know, go too far, for
instance.

(27:43):
So so that whole idea that youcan't trust yourself because sex
is like sexual desire is likean animal that you cannot
control, so you have to haveprotection in place some way to
make sure.
And I mean, let's be honest,particularly with women, like
babies happen and your wholelife, uh, can be changed by

(28:05):
pregnancy, whether you choose togo through with it or not.
So there's always been thisit's okay what men do, they can
trust themselves and do whateverthey want, but women really, in
particular, have to be carefulbecause the consequences are
huge.

Diana (28:22):
And always negative the consequences are always negative
.
We never talk about theconsequences of pleasure.

Joanne (28:28):
Yes, yes.

Diana (28:29):
What are the consequences of pleasure, sexual pleasure?
It makes you feel good, it's astress release.
It connects you to a sense ofself and a sense of being that
only in that moment of intimacywith the self, being that only
in that moment of intimacy withthe self.
And so demonizing masturbation,demonizing looking at your own

(28:54):
body, demonizing pleasure orintimacy just with the self, let
alone, you know, with a partner.
First we annihilate young girls, even perception of themselves
as whole alone.
Right, You're only whole inrelation with another.
And I feel like that purityculture is sort of part of that
is that you can only be with mein this space.

(29:15):
And I have another question.
I've always been super curiousabout this and now I have like
an audience to ask.
So this concept of babies beingmiracles and gifts.
Yet the way pregnancies happenis sinful and ugly and

(29:36):
controlled.
I don't understand that.
How do you have this giftthat's created out of this
ugliness?
I don't understand.

Joanne (29:45):
It's only ugly if it happens outside of marriage.

Diana (29:48):
Oh, I see, Okay, gotcha.
So that's the key to all thisis that sex is a beautiful,
wonderful thing.

Joanne (29:56):
I mean, my mother told me when I was a teenager,
anything two consenting adultswant to do is fine.
Of course, that was onlyheterosexual consenting adults
in her mind.

Diana (30:05):
And if you have, a ring on it, mind, and if you have a
ring on it, yeah.

Joanne (30:07):
Yeah, and if you have a ring on it that was the key.

Diana (30:11):
Okay, thank you.

Joanne (30:12):
Once you get married.
If a baby is conceived in amarriage, it's a beautiful thing
, and sex in a marriage is abeautiful thing, even if it's
still controlling.
And women can't say no to theirhusbands because sex is a
beautiful thing, but outsidethen there's some sin attached
to it and some desire that'soverwhelmed you, that you should

(30:32):
have controlled.

Jess (30:34):
I mean historically.
There's been other theologicalnarratives, Like, if you look at
the history of the conversationof same-sex marriage some of
the more historical narrativesare that sex should only be
procreative.
Right so and then like thecelibacy of the Roman Catholic
priests, you know you're closerto God if you're celibate that

(30:55):
kind of thing, too.
So there is.
You know, I think in a lot ofcontemporary Christian culture,
either under a more progressiveor conservative umbrella, sex
within marriage would be seen tobe good.
But it's not.
You know, it's not.
We're not that far away fromhistorical narratives that have

(31:16):
also belittled sex that wasn'tprocreative, even if it was
within a marriage.

Diana (31:23):
Absolutely.
And I, you know it makes methink, and especially even from,
and men as well like gettingimpacted by those messages.
Many, many years ago I was at aconference where some
researchers were talking aboutmen who grew up in very
religious conservative homes andthat they felt so bad about

(31:44):
their bodies that they wereactually causing harm to their
body parts, to their genitals,and ending up in emergency rooms
because they just wanted thosesexual desires, sexual urges, to
go away, maybe skewed in theirminds but so deeply seated in

(32:08):
their minds or rooted that anyof those sexual desires meant
they were dirty or bad oragainst God and really wanted no
part of it.
And I just think about how youknow difficult that must be for
young people to get thosemessages in those teenage years
when you know your sexualawakening is happening within
that puberty time and sort offiguring out who you are and

(32:31):
what you like and what you don'tlike and the relationships you
want to have.
But sort of that tone is sochallenging, right.

Jess (32:38):
The doctrine of total depravity has many, many
tentacles.
Oh sure does.

Ricardo (32:43):
Purity culture sure does.
Purity culture from theperspective of the 2SLGBTQ
community is interesting when itcomes to the church, because
the church, many churches wouldexercise and promote conversion
therapy, which in and of itselfis misogynistic, because then
you're telling a man that if youhave feelings and sexual

(33:05):
desires towards another man, theonly path towards your uh,
freedom and your, your, your,the love of god, is through a
woman, and you subject a womanto pleasing a man who's not
sexually or or romantically, oreven desired of this person.
It's just forced into it.
So the conversion therapy,while destructive to the male or
the female, is alsomisogynistic in and of itself,

(33:27):
right.
And then you have some peoplewho leave the church and say no,
I'm gay, that's it, I'm done.
And they leave the church andthey enter into a culture that
is inherently promiscuous inmany ways, just given what
they've gone through over thepast number of decades or
centuries.
What they've gone through overthe past number of decades or
centuries, only in the pastnumber of decades have we seen

(33:47):
healthy gay relationships, somehaving children and A, b and C,
but most of it was underground,with, you know, with the
illegality and the police raidsand so forth.
But they enter into a culturewhere they're solely unprepared
for that much sexual desire ifthat makes sense.

(34:08):
People are hitting on them andall this kind of stuff.
And in my personal experienceit wasn't that traumatic for me
in a sense because thank God forSue Johansson.
But the third level of shame inthat sense, in the gay
community especially, is theinherent and hugely huge problem

(34:30):
with racism, sizism, ageism.
I would say in my own personalexperience that within the queer
community a massive equityseeking group has the biggest
problem with racism, sizism andageism that exists outside of
the community.
If you aren't white, if youaren't skinny and fit, if you
want a certain height or weight.

Diana (34:50):
And young.

Ricardo (34:51):
And young, then you are basically cast aside to just
swim in the pool of ones thatare like you, right, and you're
not accepted in many, many ways.
So this all stems from what youare shown as a child and even
when you, if you were born orraised, religious or not, you

(35:13):
are shown and depicted images onTVs of couples and of families
that were either white or skinnyor you know, you would even
stress to find an able-bodiedand disabled person having a
healthy relationship inmainstream media and you
struggle with.

(35:33):
I can only imagine how thatstruggle exists without religion
and how exacerbated it becomeswhen you tie in these concepts
of shame and the horrific natureof premarital sex on a young
adult even, and so it's scaryhow much damage control we

(35:56):
sometimes have to do when peopleleave a church, leave a church,
and what's even scarier is thatthe churches that drive these
purity messages the hardest andI'll say the evangelical
movements, especially theextreme right-wing churches are

(36:16):
the ones that are growing, andso you have a large diaspora of
young people who are just goingto be super sexually frustrated
when the time comes.

Jess (36:31):
Oh, speaking of that, there's a really interesting
piece of research.
So Linda K Klein wrote the bookPure and she's a scholar from
evangelical church background onpurity culture and its impact
on people and she did a lot oflike qualitative research,
listening to stories and she had, you know, some really like
profound comments, like it'slike we were at war, like the,

(36:54):
the panic attacks, the anxietythat she was witnessing these
stories was like people comingback from war.
But what?
The piece that I found the mostinteresting was in recovering
from purity culture she found inher research.
They found that there was avery clear predictive difference
in who is able to move on frompurity culture more easily and

(37:15):
who was less able to, and it wasrelated to openness, to
uncertainty and question asking.

Diana (37:23):
Critical thinking yeah.

Jess (37:25):
Yeah, that openness to changing your mind, questioning
yeah, versus needing a reallyclear right wrong certainties,
which is, you know, is quitetied into some of those, yeah,
some of the religious movementsthat are going on today.

Diana (37:44):
Well, it goes back to that self-esteem piece, right,
like if your self-esteem or yourself-worth is not something
that you have agency over, howdo you have agency to critically
think about anything orquestion things when people are
sitting in positions of powerand your mind is set to be told

(38:05):
what to do and it makes sense ofthe world, when people are
feeling out of control?
And I wonder how much of thatis?
You know people needing to findsome security, but how can we
build security without takingaway people's agency, without
making people feel like you knowthou shalt is the way or

(38:26):
someone else will tell me whatto do, so that I don't have to
make any decisions, I don't haveto actually decide?
And again, thinking aboutethical decision making, being
in ethical relationships, how isthat ethical if the power is
imbalanced within thatrelationship and people don't

(38:46):
feel like they can ask thequestions they need to.
Or you know, talk aboutboundaries and consent and what
they want to do and don't wantto do, and what they enjoy and
what they like, and you know howthey want to explore their
relationships.
So yeah, that's fascinating.

Bill (39:02):
Well, and so, funnily enough, what a segue.

Diana (39:05):
I love it.
That's what they pay me the bigbucks for.

Bill (39:09):
So you won't.
You may not realize this, but Ispend a lot of time agonizing
over how it is that I canactually have questions for
specific people on the panel,and sometimes it's easier than
others.
And it wasn't until what?
735, I think last night that Icame up with a hey, I know what
to ask the union thug about sexon our podcast tomorrow night.

(39:31):
And get ready for this.
It's like you read from thescript.

Jess (39:34):
You ready for this.

Bill (39:36):
Workers' rights and sexual ethics might not seem connected
at first.
I worked on this, but both areabout dignity agency and the
right to be treated with respect.
In your experience in labormovements, how have you seen
power dynamics, whether in theworkplaces, in workplaces or in
relationships, shape people'sability to advocate for

(39:56):
themselves, and what shouldfaith communities and other
agencies that are involved inthis work learn from labor
movements?
About creating spaces wherepeople can fully claim their
worth?
oh my god, and then I'll open itup to everybody else but I want
to hear from the union thugfirst, if we're gonna, if we're
gonna do the work of creatingsafe space to to kind of

(40:18):
deconstruct these narratives andallow people to reclaim their
whole selves.

Ricardo (40:23):
it feels like unions have been working on that, at at
least in some aspects, and westill are in many ways, with
easy provisions that everyoneknows of, like maternity leave
and the concept of a man stayinghome to look after the children
while the woman advanced hercareer shortly after childbirth
right.
And so these things were hardfought, because I was just the

(40:44):
other day looking at ourcollective agreements from one
of the big horrible grocerystores in Calgary from the 60s
and they still had male andfemale wage scales signed off on
by the union to accept who wereall men, yeah, right the
leadership.
And women got paid between 35and 50 cents less an hour in the
60s and 70s than the men did.

(41:06):
But then I think to myself youknow, we have a long ways to go
as well.
So with the same big, horriblegrocery that we're fighting with
right now, we had a proposaland negotiations to provide
feminine hygiene products andother washrooms free of charge,
and they've still said no tilltoday.
Well, why would they?
Because that means they losethe sale on the shelf right.

Diana (41:29):
But it doesn't work that way.

Ricardo (41:33):
Exactly right, exactly, it doesn't work that way.
We all know what happens whenpeople can't afford feminine
hygiene products.

Diana (41:40):
How's the argument different for toilet paper Right
, right, curious, good point.

Ricardo (41:46):
So the other thing that I so we take things to the next
level.
So we've achieved certainprotections and provisions by
virtue of human rights forpeople to be able to take equal
parts of leaves in order to carefor their families and their
health.
We look at people working nowhow to protect themselves and
protect their dignity whilethey're at work, like feminine

(42:06):
hygiene products, even stuff assimple as that, in order to
protect women at work or peoplewho have those issues, I should
say.
The third thing that I see asanother venture now is and I
find it interesting, even my ownbenefit plan, being a union

(42:27):
employee that people complainedto me that male enhancement
drugs like Viagra, cialis oreven similar drugs for females,
they're not covered under plans.
Right, they're not, and I havenot found a single benefit plan
that would cover Cialis orViagra or stuff like that in

(42:50):
order to promote a healthy sexlife.
Because, you know, happy workersare hard workers and you can
slog away all day long.
You know, and I always say likeif you work at a meat plant,
you spend all day cutting theass.
I kind of want to go home anddo something a little more
pleasant than that.
I worked in a meat plant.

Diana (43:07):
That's an image that I'm going to be scouring out of my
head later.

Ricardo (43:12):
My personal opinion.
But if you have physiologicalissues in order to get an
erection and have sexualpleasure, why can't the same be
given to you if you have highblood pressure?
Why can't it be treated in thesame be given to you if you have
high blood pressure, why can'tit be treated in the same way?
And so there is actually andI've asked the question and
there is actually a resistanceto it.

(43:33):
People think that people mightabuse it for some reason.
I don't know.
How do you quantify?

Diana (43:44):
Don't overuse the Viagra.
It is very bad.
No, but like, yeah, you'reright.

Ricardo (43:50):
That should all.
That should all you know.
You take your antibiotics withfood, right?
Pharmacists can just tell youthat Don't overuse the Viagra.

Diana (43:57):
Exactly, totally, if you're not having sex every day.

Ricardo (44:00):
Don't take a Viagra pill every day.

Joanne (44:07):
That's right, it's not the best thing to have.
Don't take your dad'smedication.

Ricardo (44:09):
That's another union issue If the cucumbers are
setting you off, don't take them.

Joanne (44:12):
Vegetables.

Ricardo (44:17):
So that's in terms of what we fight for, because these
things obviously don't exist oreven are on the table for
conversation in non-unionized ornon-progressive workplaces.
And you often think aboutpeople who need time off and
leave, and you know, I want tolink this also to cases of

(44:42):
depression and anxiety as well.
Right, those who have troublefinding love, intimacy and
relationships and sex, um, newlydivorced people, separated
people who all of a sudden had alifeline from from a stable
partner to having to relearn howto date all over again right.

Diana (45:03):
Or people in the disability community who
actually are not givenpermission to have relationships
or be sexual in any way, shapeor form, and people actively
blocking them having friendships, not even sexual relationships,
but friendships that might turninto something right.

(45:25):
And so we see that too right.
And for older adults as well.
If people are living in carefacilities or homes where
there's more institutional care,that's a whole other can of
worms.
People are not open or willingor able and there's no policies

(45:47):
and procedures around it.
So, yeah, that ethicalframework is such an important
thing to think about.

Ricardo (45:54):
It boils down to who's creating the policy and having
the conversation at thetrustees' level when it comes to
benefit plan administration andworkplace accommodations.
When it comes to benefit planadministration and workplace
accommodations.

Joanne (46:10):
It's interesting one of my talking about disabilities.
One of my you know I was a verynaive person and one of my sort
of eye-opening about howpervasive sexuality is and how
important it is was working atwhat was then the Baker Center,
before they tore it down andthey made group homes there in
the banks of the Bow River, isit there?

(46:32):
And I worked in the adult unitand there was a boy and a girl
there who could not stay awayfrom each other and neither one
of them.
Okay, if you're in the BakerCenter, you don't have speech,
right, you don't have speech.
Lots of them are in diapers.
Like those are the mostseverely developmentally delayed

(46:55):
people you have.
That's the unit I was working on.
They would not stay away fromeach other and the staff was
afraid that she was going to getpregnant and they went to the
mother and said we need to putyour daughter on the pill and
the mother refused to believethat her sweet little girl would
do anything like that.
Do you know?
And I'm like they can't read abook, but they know how to have

(47:17):
sex.
Like that was amazing.
And then the other thing wasthat they at that time and this
was the early eighties.
They, um were, you know,teaching their clients how to
masturbate so that they couldget rid of their sexual
frustration.
And I remember walking into oneof the client's rooms one day
and he was in the middle of itand I'm just like, oh boy,

(47:38):
that's way more.
Yeah, that's way moreinformation than I wanted here
right now and shutting the door.
But how important even at thatlevel, it wasn't.
The importance was not you needto be in a relationship with
someone and have a loving,caring relationship, it was.
You need to be able to, atwhatever stage of sort of

(48:02):
developmental capacity that youhave to be able to express
yourself sexually Like that's soimportant to being human.
That's where I that was likethe lights on for me was working
there, yeah for sure.

Diana (48:19):
Yeah, I supported a gentleman many years ago and he
was a middle-aged man at thetime but his sister was his
guardian and he had a catheter.
But he wanted to be able tomasturbate and so he wanted to
have the catheter removed for a24-hour period once a week.

(48:43):
And I thought, oh, that's great.
I mean I can't take thecatheter out, but how can I help
you?
But it was his sister whorefused because she was his
guardian and it's very hard tofight those guardianship acts
and those orders.
But she technically had controlover his health care and she

(49:09):
was more worried about askingthe home care nurse to do that
because that was a burden forher.
I'm like, no, no, dear, that'swhat she gets paid for, that's
her job, she doesn't care, youjust tell her what you want and
she'll do it.
That's part of her work, it'snot an extra thing, right, but

(49:31):
she would not have any of it.
And this poor gentleman criedand all I could do was just sit
with him and, you know, try totalk about some other ways for
him to find some sexual, youknow, self-satisfaction for
himself, for his own quality oflife.
And that's what made me so sadwas, you know, his quality of

(49:53):
life was so diminished by notbeing able to do this for
himself, like that's all hewanted, right and it's.
And again, for me it was abouthow do I, how do I try to be as
gracious as I can be to thissister who's trying to, you know
in her mind do the right thingfor her brother, that don't have

(50:27):
freedom to choose and don'thave spaces to have that control
over their bodies, and how wedon't give voice to folks who
are really, really marginalizedand removed from sort of the
public eye.

Jess (50:38):
Yeah, and then the narrative that is floating
around right now is you know,the church is the villain, Like,
the church is the one that ispromoting this dangerous
narrative.
But you know, we could chooseto promote a different narrative
.

Diana (50:53):
Totally.

Jess (50:54):
Like Jesus is like well, you've heard it said that, but I
say this Like Jesus gives uspermission to innovate and put
human flourishing as the lensthrough which we make decisions
in particular contexts.

Joanne (51:12):
yes, that is so important.
It goes back to this sort ofidea of dignity and human
dignity and choice and all thosethings that unions advocate for
and that should also be insexuality, because, um, this
idea that it used to be, um,there were things that were
wrong and that you did that werewrong like axed right.

(51:32):
Like you can't, you have tohave sex in the missionary
position, any of that otherstuff is bad, right, um, but
what, uh?
And you can see this alivestill in conservative churches
when they deal with the queercommunity because they'll say
it's all.
I know you're born gay, now weall get that.
It's just acting on that.
Like it's actually the sex actthat's wrong, not the being gay

(51:56):
now, which is crazy to me.
You know, it's just like youask any heterosexual, I know
you're heterosexual, but youcan't have sex.
Like would we ever do that?
Like you know.

Diana (52:06):
Well, just to clarify, there's no such thing as gay sex
.

Joanne (52:08):
No, let's just be clear.

Diana (52:12):
And it's interesting because also, if you look at the
statistics, heterosexualcouples actually have more penis
and anus sex than gay mencouples.
There's all kinds of gay mencouples that actually don't
engage in that type of sexualactivity and aren't interested
in that and don't do that, andthen there's all sorts of

(52:32):
heterosexual couples that do.
And to sort of think about thispurity culture as well and what
was coming up in high schoolsmaybe 10, 15 years ago, what we
started to hear and again goingon that purity culture thing was
girls specifically, becausevirginity is a label that girls

(52:55):
wear and it's a construct thatwe have.
It's not a real thing, buttheir idea of protecting or
maintaining their virginitymeant that their first sexual
experiences were with anal sex,which of course takes a whole

(53:16):
lot of other, you know,protection, lubrication,
navigation, negotiation, consent, people being under control of
what they're doing, like.

(53:36):
There's other things to takeinto consideration with that
than penis and vagina sex, tosort of protect this construct
of virginity, which alsocontrols women's bodies, right.

Joanne (53:53):
Yeah, and I think this dovetails nicely with what Jess
was saying, in that the othernarrative that we as Christian
people should be promoting arerelationships where conversation
happens, where boundaries areset between couples, where you
engage in activities with moralclarity and not, you know, god

(54:15):
tells me, but moral clarity interms of what you're comfortable
with and what you aren'tcomfortable with.
And we as a Christian communityshould promote the idea of
wholehearted living and humanflourishing at the center of our
sexuality, like we try to do interms of our justice issues and
everything else, because if youhive that off, you can never be
whole, like you can never be awhole person if your sexuality

(54:39):
isn't at least addressed in yourlife in some way.
And not to say there aren'tpeople who are asexual, because
I wrote a paper on that too.
When I start looking at thepapers I wrote in seminary, I'm
like they must have thought Iwas obsessed with sex, but
anyway there's a problem withthat?
Oh yeah, like I wrote this kinkyChristian sex paper and I wrote
, you know, this asexualitypaper and the ethics of Soleil

(55:03):
and whatever.
Anyways, it doesn't matter butthe asexuality.
So what they say is like theonly relationship that can be
celebrated is a union, like aromantic union, right?
So people who identify asasexual, they're not really
interested in sexualrelationships but they're still

(55:23):
interested in deep and personaland life-giving relationships
and their hope is that they canbe celebrated as much as a
romantic relationship.
Right, that we need tocelebrate in our culture other
relationships that are deep andmeaningful and not sexual as
much as we celebrate this kindof romantic pairing that our

(55:45):
culture just forces us into andwe as Christian people.
That's the narrative thatshould drive our conversation
about sex, not specific actsthat we can or cannot do or sin
identities that get attached tothose particular acts, like
she's an adulterer and he's, youknow, um too promiscuous.

(56:07):
all those things that we attachbecause of people's sexual acts
instead of what we should attachis um.
Are you living your life umwholeheartedly and with
intention and integrity, and areyour partners um in
conversation with you about whatthat looks like in your

(56:28):
intimate relationships, whetherthey're sexual or not?

Jess (56:32):
Yeah, and I think romantic relationships can be not
sexually active, and I'm using alimited definition of sexually
active as genitalia involvingsexually active, because
sexually active doesn't need toeven involve no, involve the
nether regions, no no and youknow, and there's all kinds of

(56:54):
situations where that could bethe case.
It could be a case in um, a postuh prostatectomy situation.
Yeah, absolutely Earlier in thepodcast, bill, you said it's
not one size fits all, it's notone model fits all.

(57:22):
It's a posture as a Christianof taking seriously the power of
the Holy Spirit to provideguidance and wisdom and the
ability to think on our feet andnot be lazy.
The more rules we have, thelazier we are.

Ricardo (57:38):
Interestingly, there's a lot of relationships out there
where there's just a sideculture, where they don't have
penis, vagina or penetrative sex, it's just mutual pleasure
through oral or masturbation andthey live healthy lives.
But this concept of asexuality,joanne, is striking to me
because we also live in aculture and within the church

(58:02):
especially that when you areolder, much older, and you have
been in a long and healthyrelationship or marriage of
decades long and you are widowed, that you are just then
supposed to be asexual and neverdo anything again.
And there's almost a no, there'snot, almost.
There is a counterculture or ashame around even an older man

(58:23):
or a woman or person who startsdating again and being sexual in
their late years.
And how this couples with thequestions you asked is that we
have people now in society,especially in the affordability
crisis we live in, who areworking well into their 70s and
not choosing to retire becausethe pension statement doesn't
provide for what they need, butthey also want to have sex.

Bill (58:47):
Well, not only that, but you have a generation of boomers
that have medical marvels forhealth care.
I think it might have beenOprah, and I'm ashamed to even
say it that it was probably onOprah she's a national treasure.
Whose nation?

Joanne (59:02):
I mean international treasure.
She's an international treasure.

Diana (59:06):
Except for JJ.

Bill (59:09):
But I believe she had a guest on who.
The entire premise of the showwas that 60 is the new 40, right
and this idea that, with justthe rise of medical care and
again, that people are workinglonger and more physically
active and not able to, like,kind of retire, sit down and

(59:33):
wait for death, which was kindof which seems to still be the
expectation when it happens that, like the robust seniors that
are still quite virile andinterested and moving and able,
and at the same time can't finda doctor that they want to talk

(59:54):
about it with or even to go andhear from the pharmacist you
know, don't take the Viagraevery day would be a horrific
conversation to even considerhaving be a horrific
conversation to even considerhaving.
So it's this idea of, like, I'mstill a.
I'm still a fully functioning,eager, desirous human being with
no resources, no clarity, noopenness and my you know my, my

(01:00:18):
life partner has died, I'm awidow and you know, Daisy Mae
three doors down is prettysmoking hot for a 70 year old
right.

Diana (01:00:29):
We actually do have a syphilis outbreak in a long-term
care facility here in Calgary.

Joanne (01:00:33):
It's it's real.

Diana (01:00:35):
Oh, absolutely.

Joanne (01:00:36):
I did hear that the sexually transmitted STBIs are
at senior centers.
That's the fastest growingpopulation.
For that, yeah.

Bill (01:00:45):
So this feels like as good a place as any for us to take a
time out and refresh our drinksand come back for the rest of
the conversation, so we'll goingto direct this question to
Diana first.
All right, and we are back fromour intermission and ready to

(01:01:27):
keep the conversation going.
I'm going to direct thisquestion to Diana first and then
we can expand from there.
But certainly your experiencelends a great deal of expertise
to this one.
Across many differentcommunities in society.
There's the LGBTQ community,polyamorous partnerships, sex

(01:01:47):
workers, older adults kind ofthe whole gamut.
There's a lot of deep-rootedsocietal and systemic barriers
that make it difficult forpeople to express their
sexuality with dignity andsafety, and we had started,
right before the information tokind of key in, especially on
older adults and some of thebarriers that they face.
So, based on your experience,what do you think are some of
the most common challenges thatpeople are facing when they seek

(01:02:09):
to live out their sexual andrelational lives, and how can we
all, but especially faithcommunities, work to advocate to
dismantle some of thesebarriers in effective ways?

Diana (01:02:21):
It's such a good question , it's so big, and I think part
of it is not having safe spacesto have conversations around
relationships and wanting orneeding connection with people.
And so I think when we'readults, and especially older
adults, what I hear is aboutloneliness and disconnection and
that their attempts atconnection are either met with

(01:02:47):
childish giggles and oh isn'tthat sweet and people sort of
dismissing their attempts atconnection and their attempts at
romance and sort of having newintimate relationships, or it's
met with disgust.
Why would you want to do that?

(01:03:08):
Or I don't understand.
You know why that would beimportant to you now, or that's
not something for you, or itdoesn't belong for you.
And then what we see for the2SLGBTQ older adults is
discrimination and overtviolence in places where they
live, so people being afraid toget on elevators with their

(01:03:30):
neighbors because of homophobiaand transphobia.
That happens in public spaceswith no control and no safety
net for them.
So it makes it very difficultfor people to even explore their
sexuality later in life.
And we see more older adultscoming out later in life with

(01:03:50):
the loss of a spouse.
So they did subscribe to atraditional heterosexual
relationship.
They had a family, they hadtheir children.
They did the things that theyfelt that they were supposed to
do or believed that was the pathfor them.
And then a spouse dies, adivorce happens, whatever things

(01:04:10):
in life, and then they decidethat now's the time for me to
come out.
And then they lose their family, they lose their children, and
so their social networks getvery small and it gets even
harder to feel connection andfeel supported and secure in
your life.
And that's when people makesometimes really uninformed

(01:04:35):
decisions, even around theirsexual health, and engage in
activities that can cause someharm for them or for partners,
because they don't know who toask or they don't feel safe to
talk to people about it.
So it's I think it's just soimportant for any spaces where
older adults are that there'sroom to have conversations about

(01:04:57):
the importance of connection,that loneliness is lethal.
We know that, especially forolder adults, that health and
social determinants of healthdecline so quickly when people
are experiencing loneliness.
And if we deny people access totheir sexuality, to their desire
for intimacy, whether it'sphysical intimacy or not.

(01:05:19):
It's really about how do wecreate a space where people can
get their questions answered?
Do we create a space wherepeople can get their questions
answered.
If people got married in the60s, they talked about venereal
disease, right, and maybe familyplanning-ish, but again, birth
control wasn't legalized until69, right?

(01:05:41):
So that might not have evenbeen a part of their, of the
conversations that people werehaving.
And so how are we havingnuanced conversations with older
adults now about condom use,about getting tested for stis,
how to access those resources,how to talk to their care
providers, how to talk to theirdoctors or whatever health care

(01:06:03):
professional is in their lives,so that they can explore safely
and that they don't have to feelshame around their bodies and
the relationships that they want?
And as we age, our identitiesalso intersect around
disabilities.
So aging bodies and disabilitiesand sort of it collides with

(01:06:23):
all of this infantilization ofolder adults and people with
disabilities and we lump peopleinto these categories of being
asexual or having your sexualitydenied because of institutional
care or because of, you know,guardianship orders and acts and
our systems and our policiesand procedures don't give the

(01:06:48):
professionals in these spacesalso a permission or a roadmap
to even have these conversations.
And so, unless you're a supersort of sex positive social
worker in one of these spaces ora nurse or some other
administrator in those spaces,chances are nobody's having
those conversations with.
I think is super problematicand when you think about

(01:07:10):
Alzheimer's and dementias andpeople's capacity to consent
goes away but also sexual desireand drives might increase for
all kinds of reasons.
So then, how are we managingsexualized behaviors?
And how are we talking aboutthat person's partner who

(01:07:31):
doesn't have dementia and whoisn't institutionalized and
whose husband or wife doesn'trecognize them anymore and
they've started a new friendship, a new relationship in care?
Or the spouse that's left incommunity has found comfort and
connection to another person incommunity and feels like there's

(01:07:54):
being, you know cheating, oryou know.

Bill (01:07:59):
Infidelity.

Diana (01:08:00):
Absolutely right and so I think it's such a.
Humans are complex, obviously,and I think this topic is super
nuanced, but and I think thatthe reason why it's shame Right
and most of us carry it, andI've worked a long time trying
not tohave it and I saidthere's still every once in a

(01:08:22):
while is a little ping oh, thereit is, I see you.
There's still every once in awhile, this little ping oh there
it is, I see you.
And so I think you know havingsafe spaces to have that
conversation is so unique andthis podcast feels like such a

(01:08:47):
unique opportunity to reallyencourage people to find their
people, find someone that theycan talk to honestly about how
they're experiencing theirsexuality into their older ages,
and it's just such a animportant piece of um.
I just think overall health andwellness that we have to talk
about it more.
I don't even know if I answeredthat question.
I rambled that question.
I rambled.

Ricardo (01:09:05):
No, I think it's interesting to say that people
are drawn to A heteronormativerelationships and B monogamous
relationships.

Diana (01:09:15):
Absolutely.

Ricardo (01:09:16):
And that if somebody has a life event of a spouse or
a partner passing away or adivorce or separation, a natural
mindset is, one after the otherrather than at the same time,
and only now in recent years insociety have we seen healthy,

(01:09:36):
same sex or different genders ormultiple gender relationships.
I can think to myself seeing gaylove or gay kiss scenes and
people are like oh, you knowwhat I'm saying.
And then the TV show ModernFamily came out, and not only
was it a healthy, same-sex,same-gender couple who had

(01:09:59):
adopted a child and were I don'tknow if they were married or
not, but it was also differentsizes, different ages.
And it showed that aspect.

Diana (01:10:08):
And the same relationship problems.
That's everybody.

Ricardo (01:10:12):
Right.
And then you showed a olderperson and a younger person
together and he adopted herchild from a previous
relationship.
It was groundbreaking.
In my mind, it was a reallyfunny show.
It was a really well-writtenfunny show, but in my mind, what
I thought to myself every timeI watched it people are watching

(01:10:34):
this groundbreaking televisionshow about modern relationships
in 2021 or whatever, and theyhaven't blinked.
Life has gone on perfectlyunhinged and unharmed, but, god
forbid, a trans person on thestreet wants to go into the
washroom to use the facilitiesand they become unhinged.

(01:10:56):
And so it draws two connectionsA it's theory versus practice
in many ways right.
What you see on the screen isnot necessarily what you're
comfortable with observing andexperiencing in real life, but
we need to push those boundariesin the forms that people and

(01:11:16):
the places that people are aredrawn to the most when they are
the least guarded, like watchingtelevision or having dinner or
something like that.
Right?
So that's, that's the key toopening up people's senses
around different forms ofrelationships.
I was in a relation.
I was in a relationship.
I was dating somebody who waspolyamorous and we were dating.

(01:11:39):
It was nothing.
It was very foreign to me beingpartner number three and I will
say it didn't bother me in theslightest.
And I, you know, I brought themto one of my concerts and I
introduced them to my sister andI was like, oh, I'm telling
them, I'm telling my sister allabout them, and my sister says,
good luck explaining that to momand you think, to yourself.

(01:12:05):
There is that generational, thegenerational mindset that we
have to overcome.
But, like I want to know wherein society, because these
polyamorous and ethicallynon-monogamous and monogamous
relationships existed even inthe times of Jesus, where did we

(01:12:26):
become so boring?

Joanne (01:12:28):
Well, more than one wife , Right, more than one wife was
acceptable.

Ricardo (01:12:33):
More than one wife is still acceptable in many
countries outside of NorthAmerica.
Yeah Right.

Joanne (01:12:37):
Well, I mean Paul said you should be the husband of one
wife if you're going to lead inthe church.
So that idea comes into theChristian scriptures for sure.
But yeah, there was more thanone wife for sure.
Yeah, I read some text in theearly church that even same-sex
marriage and same-sex coupleswere quite normal in early
Christianity, oh man, if there'ssome text in the early church
that even same-sex marriage andsame-sex couples were quite

(01:12:58):
normal in early Christianity, ohman, if you look at the one who
Jesus loved was likely a man,there's lots of people who think
that Jesus was gay.

Bill (01:13:05):
The beloved disciple, the beloved disciple.

Joanne (01:13:07):
They called him the one who Jesus loved.
Yep Right.
Never named, never identifiedoutside of David and Jonathan
fell on the ground and kissedeach other.
Absolutely Like what washappening there.
It's there in the text, it'sjust, you know, it's just hidden
in a way.

Ricardo (01:13:28):
I remember seeing Dan here Listen, I used to when I
first not when I first came out,really, when I was first sort
of in the community because Icame out I went through the
whole bar star phase and then Itried giving back and so I
joined Calgary Outlink and Itrained for them a lot and you
know a lot of issues in same sexand queer relationships was
coming up and so I listened to alot of Dan Savage and.

(01:13:49):
Dan Savage had said, like if youwere in a relationship with a
person for 30 or 40 years, it'sactually healthy that they slept
with somebody else just once ortwice in 30 years.
They experienced it and theygot it out of their system.
Like you should be happy thatthey weren't just living in
misery.
But the problem lies in thesense that you shame them into

(01:14:12):
believing that what they've doneis wrong, rather than
communicating with your partneron what is?
What are they seeking and what?
what do they need to become ahappier more sexual person and
be happier in the relationship.
So I like the concept and Iread this article on men's
health is fantastic for sexualrelationships, by the way um
it's like is monogamish yeah,yeah or is a monogamish

(01:14:37):
relationship for you whereyou're just like you know you're
with one person physically,psychologically, emotionally,
spiritually, a, b and c, d, butmaybe just 80 sexually, and you
have communication that you know?

Joanne (01:14:52):
what happens in vegas stays in vegas is that yeah I,
when I uh counsel couples whoare getting married, um, I
always say, uh, fidelity is agift right that you give
somebody if that's what they umwant from you.

(01:15:14):
It's not a requirement in amarriage, do you know?
But you should have theconversation, is what I always
say to them and to me.
That's the problem with youknow, affairs or 80% ish is that
if you haven't had theconversation with your partner
that this is what you want, thenthat's a violation of um, some

(01:15:36):
kind of you know, I'm not acovenant.
It's a violation of a covenantthat that you're you've made
with your partner that they havecertain expectations of
fidelity.
That's why it's important tosay even before you get married,
like what are your expectationsaround fidelity?
Really important conversationto have.
It is in our culture it's likeexpected that fidelity is part

(01:16:02):
of a marriage relationship and Ithink for good reason sometimes
, because used to be I meanpolyamory and stuff is way uh
more out there than it, than itused to be.
But open relationship is whatthey used to call them right,
open relationships and um, Iremember talking to a minister
once about open relationshipswhat's wrong with open

(01:16:24):
relationships?
And him him saying you know inthe studies that he's done, that
one partner wants it more thananother.
So then it becomes, um, almostforced If you want to keep me,
then you have to allow me to beopen sexually, right.
And then you find those coupleswhere it's like, okay, we'll do
that.
But then when the other partnerbecomes open to that is where

(01:16:46):
the problem comes right.
You know, wait, I wanted to beon, but I didn't want you to be
again.
This is ownership kind of thing.
Whole bro code too.
Do you know what I used to talkto my kids?
And they'd be like I can't dateher because she used to date
him.
And I say over and over to mykids even to this day you do not
own people.
You do not own people if thatperson, just because someone

(01:17:09):
dated someone else, does notmean that's theirs for life.
And that is so hard to get overwith young people Like, even
now, oh no, because they hadthem first or they called dibs
so destructive.
The conversation is what'simportant.
The covenant you make with anintimate partner is what's
important.
It doesn't have to have rules.
There are no preconceived.

(01:17:31):
There should not be anypreconceived notion about what a
relationship looks like.
It's negotiated between people,either couples or, you know,
three partners or whatever youwant to do.
It's negotiated, so everybodyknows what the expectations are
and what the commitments are.
That's, that's an importantthing in any relationship,

(01:17:54):
that's an important thing in anyrelationship.

Jess (01:17:59):
Well, I asked the students on campus to educate me before
this podcast, and I learned newterms that I had never heard
before, like polycule and onepenis policy.

Ricardo (01:18:15):
One penis policy.

Jess (01:18:16):
Yes, so that would be like an open or polyamorous a
relationship where the personwith the penis in the
relationship is okay with therebeing other people and other
combinations of people in thecloud of that context, but as

(01:18:38):
long as there's only one penisin that cloud.

Bill (01:18:43):
Interesting.

Jess (01:18:44):
Really.

Bill (01:18:45):
Interesting.

Jess (01:18:45):
And so.
But you know, you know theyoung adults they're, they're
very wise and they're going tobe okay because they the the.
The primary thing that wascoming up was communication,
non-manipulation,non-exploitation, um, consent,
boundaries, safety, inherentdignity.

(01:19:08):
These were all of the themesthat were easy for them to
emerge with in you.
You know this group of four orfive students that I cornered
during reading break and saidplease teach me, I have a
podcast this Friday.

Diana (01:19:24):
Well, and it's grounded in those ethical premise of
consent, boundaries, right,decision-making, equity, not
equal.
It's not about equal, it'sabout equity, right?
How do you manage that power?
And then pleasure, what feelsgood?
And you know, it's interestingthat I think people really this

(01:19:45):
might be interesting for peopleto know the kink community and
the BDSM community, theircommunity members, are very well
grounded in ethical practiceswithin their community.
They talk about consent all thetime.
They talk about boundaries allthe time.
It really is grounded in wewant to play a certain way and

(01:20:11):
we are only going to do thatwith other people that want to
play like how we want to play.
And this isn't about coercion,it's not about manipulation,
it's not about forcing people todo things they don't want to do
.
It's not about causing peopleharm.
Some people, pleasure is pain.
For some people, pleasure takeson all sorts of different ways

(01:20:36):
of being.
Some people want to be in asubmissive environment.
Some people want to be in adominant environment.
Creating, governing rules andboundaries around those
relationships are cornerstonesto be able to engage in that, in
those activities and in thatworld.

(01:20:56):
And then being very clear aboutcommunication.
Here are the words we're goingto use.
Here is exactly what we'regoing to say, and if I hear this
, this is what's going to happenand that will be what happens.
And here are the consequencesif it doesn't.
If we could have that clarityof conversation in relationships

(01:21:16):
wow.

Joanne (01:21:17):
There has to be consent for every move in the BDSM
community.
Again another seminary paper Iwrote.

Bill (01:21:26):
I've read it actually, and what was interesting about that
?

Joanne (01:21:30):
was because it was a theological thing, and that was
my after.
I knew nothing about bdsm, um,which, if you, if some of the
people out there don't know, islike we used to call it
sadomasochism, which is part ofit, but it's basically bondage,
um, decision making, dignity,discipline.
You know all these things.
So, um, and I wrote this withnot knowing nothing about the

(01:21:53):
community, but from atheological position where they
talked about the very sort ofsexual language that the mystics
used in sort of the middle ages, even, um, if you read the uh
gospel of mary magdalene, andshe talks about her and her
lover being jesus and descendinginto this very sexual language

(01:22:13):
that is used around the intimacythat you experience with God,
right, and that that intimacy isa relationship where there's
constant giving uh, back andforth and consent always.
You know even Mary who said letit be to me.
You know, as you have said,mary gave consent for God to be
in union with her and um, andit's really interesting that, in

(01:22:38):
considering that history ofsort of sexualized relationship
with God or Jesus, um, that wasthere that we have somehow come
to this place where sex is apartfrom our faith, as opposed to
an integral experience of even,um, like, even union with

(01:23:01):
somebody in an intimaterelationship has a sacred
element to it, where you know,like they say, leave room for
the Holy spirit.
You know like when you're withsomeone, but I think it's like
recognize that, um, when you arebeing vulnerable, the the Holy
Spirit is like imbued ineverything that you're doing and
in all you do.

(01:23:22):
Like it's it's weird, um, thatwhen I I did that paper, at the
end I'm like, wow, the way thatpeople in the BDSM community
conduct their relationships ishow we should all conduct our
relationships.
That's what was weird for me.
Like that's that's was like wow, this, this seems like what all

(01:23:44):
Christians should do.
You know, have a conversation,negotiate what you want to do,
get consent for every step, justbecause, you know, used to be
in the old days, you didn't talkabout what was happening and it
was almost like it was placed.
I think this was a horribleburden to place on young men to
just keep pushing until someonestopped them.

(01:24:04):
Like that was sexual encounterswhen I was young.
You just keep going until it'sa definite no, um, and that is
so harmful for young men too.
I think that's a horrible wayto conduct a relationship.
So this idea of no means nobecoming yes means yes.

(01:24:25):
It's a like a paradigm shiftthat has allowed your university
students to talk about.
You know how do you ethicallyhave polyamory or more than one
partner, whatever, and theconversation being so important,
well, and I have.

Jess (01:24:43):
I have children that are younger than university students
and like a lot of the sexeducation I've read, as in
parenting, is that you knowteaching healthy principles
around sexuality actually startsat age one, age two.
How do you teach consentwithout any context of a sexual
act involved?

(01:25:03):
I bought a graphic novel aboutsex and I leave it on the coffee
table.
I am considering bribing mykids to read it.
What do you think Should Ioffer them cash If you read this
book?
I'll give you.
What do you think Should Ioffer them cash If you read?

Joanne (01:25:17):
this book, I'll give you cash.
How about condoms?
You offer them condoms if theyread the book.

Diana (01:25:21):
I have lots of variety.

Jess (01:25:24):
But one of the things that I picked up in the book was
consent is both what are yousaying yes to and what are you
saying no to, and I thought thatwas so profound.

Ricardo (01:25:38):
It's interesting.
A friend of mine was telling methat she was teaching her
children about consent at a veryyoung age, because they had to
teach children that if you don'tlike to be tickled, you can say
I don't like to be tickled.
And that this notion of anadult going up to a child and
saying coochie, coochie, coo isand the child not liking it is

(01:25:59):
their way of saying.
I do not consent to this.

Jess (01:26:01):
Pokemon cards Excellent avenue for teaching consent.
Are you okay if we trade thiscard for that card?

Diana (01:26:09):
Negotiating pizza.
Negotiate your pizza order.
That's negotiating consent.
What kind of pizza are we goingto have?
What do you want on yours?
What do you want on yours?
You know?
What am I allergic to?
What you know?
What do I eat that tastes likeglass Onions, any, any like, and
again like.

Bill (01:26:27):
I have young children as well teenage but like we talk a
lot all the time, we talk aboutlike consent isn't just around
issues of sexuality, it's it's.
It's about all all the ways thatyou get to deploy your own
agency and the decision makingabout not just what happens with
your body but with your life.

(01:26:47):
Right, and that there's a,there's a degree of being able
to recognize.
You know what.
This is something I need toself advocate, but also being
able to say like this is whereI'm still.
I still need help, I still needsomebody to come in and give me
the words or give me the backupor kind of frame it in a way
that actually allows me to stillfeel like I'm taken care of and

(01:27:09):
safe in the space that I'm in.
Right, so, but any agency, anyopportunity even to create
opportunities to act out agencywhen, at the end of the day, you
probably don't want to eat thepizza they're going to negotiate
for, but you tough it outbecause they need to have that
win they need to know that itmatters to speak as opposed to
just silently sitting andexpecting that the world is

(01:27:32):
going to make all your decisionsfor you, right, so?

Diana (01:27:35):
um, well, and consent, I think consent to when we're
talking about young kids, um,and you know, there's that
narrative that's happeningaround um trans folks and um
grooming, um, uh, for you know,young children and things like
that Most children are sexuallyabused and assaulted by people

(01:27:59):
that they know.
It's not strangers you know it'snot the trans person that's
reading story time at thelibrary.
Trust me, that is not who thatis.
And this, also this idea thatconsent and not labeling body
parts and not giving childrenthe language around their bodies

(01:28:20):
puts them at higher risk forassault and abuse.
And I think again, and I wantparents so badly to understand,
that the proper words for bodyparts aren't swear words right,
they're medical terms.
They're the words your doctorsand nurses are going to use and
parents are so worried.
They're like what if my littleone's in the shopping cart in

(01:28:42):
Safeway and they start yellingthe word penis?
And I'm like, as a socialworker, I'm high-fiving you in
the aisle Because I'm saying yes.

Bill (01:28:51):
If you're the community standards for Apple Podcasts,
though, you're marking thispodcast explicit because of this
, yes, adults only.

Diana (01:29:02):
That's probably wise, which is fascinating, right?
It's fascinating to me.
Grooming children use is, youknow, targeting those children
that don't have that work, thosethat language and don't know
how to set boundaries, and, youknow, let people tickle them and
don't say no, or just havelearned that my no doesn't

(01:29:25):
matter.
And just for the record,tickling is torture, it is a
torture method, like we reallyshouldn't tickle people unless
they say please tickle me, andthen yes, yes, okay, or give
your aunt a kiss or go sit withyour uncle.
You know all that kind of stufffor sure.

Joanne (01:29:43):
I think it's interesting , this consent um conversation
and also open sexuality which,again, you know, the 60s, all
these boomers you're worriedabout that was like like the
free love time, right, you know,like it all began back then.
But I think we should also havethe ability in our negotiations

(01:30:05):
to be more conventional andconservative and be okay with
that.
You know, and I think.
Well, I don't know this forsure, but I do feel like there
are a lot of pressures on youngpeople and older people and
everyone to um to go moveoutside their comfort zones in

(01:30:26):
some ways and I'm all for that.
But I also think it's okay tosay, yeah, this is not for me
you know, in conversations I'vehad with the young adults in our
house, you, you know, one willsay, yeah, I couldn't do a
polyamorous relationship, Like,it's just not for me and that
should be okay.
Do you know, Um, my daughterrecently said which surprised me

(01:30:46):
that she's starting.
She's 26 years old, she'sstarting to feel like a more
traditional life is actuallydesirable.
You know, not like traditionalas a narrow, but just this idea
of home is really important.
And you know, um, having uh,sort of a contained life, as
opposed to feeling like everyall your edges are bleeding out,

(01:31:09):
which I think is a danger evenof you know, having these
conversations withoutunderstanding that you're okay,
however you are.
You know, having theseconversations without
understanding that you're okay,however you are.

Bill (01:31:18):
You know you don't have to be the uh, the leading edge of
sexuality to prove that you'refree, Um, and that's important,
yeah, and I mean, like I, I'llsay I, you know one of the books
that I was reading in inpreparation for for tonight and
for this podcast.
This podcast I struggled with alot and it was a book on

(01:31:38):
polyamory and consensualnon-monogamy and, obviously, in
a monogamous marriage with threechildren and my wife, who I
love to death Shout out wife.
But the whole premise of somuch of the book was around
those people who are in thesemonogamous relationships.
They're stuck in this fairytale, like they're naive.

(01:32:01):
It's like, can we figure outhow to have conversations about
diverse expressions ofrelationships without having to
piss on everybody else to lookenlightened?
Enlightened Because I think,like I think, if we're, if we're
going to embrace diversity,then all of that diversity, as
long as it is, you know, steepedin dignity and mutual respect

(01:32:22):
and mutual benefit, right, like,like, I think.
I think there's a whole piece tothe way that we do
relationships in our world.
Now that is really steeped in.
What can you do for me?
What can I for lack of a betterword mine you for for my own,
you know, self-gratification orworth.
And when you stop being able toprovide that we're done right

(01:32:45):
and that is not a healthy,dignified, mutually respectful,
you know, kind of relationship.
So you know to figure out a wayto.
Yes, I understand that, likewe've been in a culture that for
a long time has said all theseother expressions are wrong,
right.
And it is always sort of thenatural response when you start

(01:33:06):
to be able to carve out thatplace that, hey, like my life,
my choices, my dignity has valueand worth as much as anyone
else's, absolutely.
There's always sort of thishistorical sense of now I got to
punch back at the people whohave been, you know, hitting me
for so long but like somewhereit's just like diversity needs
to be expansive across the board.
So someone who says I amperfectly happy to, you know,

(01:33:30):
spend 70 years with the sameperson and sacrifice some things
that I might want to you know,that I might, in other
situations, want to have happenfor the greater good of this
agreement that we have aroundthe terms of our relationship.
That should be just as valid asany other option that's out
there, right and so like.

(01:33:52):
That's part of the challenge isthat any of these relationships,
any of these expressions,really still come back to the
dignity, the mutuality, therespect and the openness and the
communication and the checkingin as well.
Right Like, I get that this wasokay 10 years ago.
Is it still okay?
Right?
Um?

(01:34:18):
So like there's.
There's just a lot of that kindof kind of stuff that I think
we miss more and more as, asrelationships become a almost
more of a commodity, um, in somecases, than than they ought to
be, um well, it's interesting.

Joanne (01:34:27):
I don't know the statistics, but I have read
articles and seen things aboutwhen one of the partners
transitions, for instance,they're trans.
How many couples stay togethereven even though their partner
has transitioned right?
Into you know and and that isreally interesting to me that,

(01:34:48):
and marriages when, when spousescome out gay, lesbian, whatever
that stay together, it's notuncommon at all at yeah, I met
this Mormon woman once whosehusband was gay, but they wanted
to raise their childrentogether and they loved each
other right.
And this comes back to thislet's celebrate relationships

(01:35:08):
that aren't sexual too.

Bill (01:35:09):
Absolutely and recognize that intimacy and sex are two
different things, right.

Joanne (01:35:15):
Well, they can also be overlap, though, oh.

Bill (01:35:19):
I'm not going to say completely unrelated, but maybe
not codependent.
How about that?
Yeah, that's right, yeah.

Jess (01:35:27):
Well, and let's not call things boring, yeah.

Diana (01:35:30):
Yes, yes, or vanilla, or vanilla Totally.
We use vanilla in everything.
It's great.

Joanne (01:35:40):
It's a wonderful flavor.

Diana (01:35:41):
It is Absolutely.

Joanne (01:35:42):
Yeah, especially if it's roasted.
Wait, that came out wrong.

Diana (01:35:48):
Sorry.
Well, and when we talk aboutsexuality because we talk about
it from a really holisticperspective and we do talk about
how most people go intorelationships where, um the the
desire for physical intimacy andromantic intimacy or or um sort

(01:36:08):
of emotional intimacy overlapand that, that that's.
But there are people on eitherends where those two things
don't actually have to coexistand so, just like how you know,
don't yuck someone else's yumLike why are we yucking someone
else's yum?
You don't have to eat it, itdoesn't matter.

Ricardo (01:36:29):
As well.
We focus a lot of ourconversation even today, on
relationships and two or morepeople finding intimacy and love
with each other, but alsothere's nothing wrong with just
being like.
I don't even know.
The term is.
Serial dating is stillsomething that we call it yeah
where somebody just wants toremain, like I've always said,

(01:36:50):
like you know, solely for solopolyamory or something where you
have multiple partners.
I mean mean in this housing andaffordability crisis.
I'm thinking about a polyculemyself right just so I can have
the extra rent Totally fair, butlike.
My almost ideal relationshipright now would be like I'm

(01:37:10):
dating someone, but they alsohave their own house.

Bill (01:37:13):
Right.

Ricardo (01:37:14):
So this may be a few days a week.
You can just go stay over therefor now and I can have some me
time.
Like also the concept ofself-love and people who are
well into their years, in their40s or 50s, 60s, and they remain
single the entire time.
It's also, it's very, verydegrading for men who choose to
remain single.
They're automaticallyconsidered oh you considered

(01:37:35):
obviously gay.
You just couldn't get arelationship.

Bill (01:37:37):
Did you say well, into their years at age 40?

Diana (01:37:40):
I know that's what I heard too.
I'm like, wow, I've heard that.

Ricardo (01:37:45):
Right, but like or even women who remain single remain
single and they are consideredundesirable.

Joanne (01:38:00):
Spinsters we used to call them.

Ricardo (01:38:03):
Right, but perhaps just the person who I remember an
article a long time ago, someonewho was like 105 years old I
think she was like the oldestperson in Italy had passed away
and they said what are the keysto your long life?
And she says I just avoided men.

Joanne (01:38:20):
She's like.

Ricardo (01:38:21):
I'm not a lesbian, but I never got married.
I just avoided men.
They dragged me down and so,like people who want to just
experience different things anddifferent experiences and not
tie themselves down, are alsoshamed right, oh yeah.
And there's a natural flow andprogression, even in our
education systems, in thelexicon we use among our

(01:38:42):
children.
You know we often talk topeople, to children, when they
enter junior, high or highschool.
Oh, do you have anyone special?

Bill (01:38:50):
Are you dating?

Jess (01:38:50):
anybody.

Ricardo (01:38:52):
And you know we still go as far as to tell young women
or young men or oh, do you havea girlfriend or do you have a
boyfriend.
Yet you know those kind ofverbiages, that that goes on in
kindergarten, right Please.

Joanne (01:39:08):
Oh, that starts really young.

Jess (01:39:09):
Destructive to a child who's actually still in the
closet, and gay because thenyou're making these, you know
but, like maybe they just don'thave a desire to date anybody
yeah, and it just contributes tothese waters that we swim in of
not enoughness not enough, notenough, you're not enough if
you're single and happy andenjoying being single, and you
don't care if you're datingsomeone or you're choosing a

(01:39:30):
celibate lifestyle, becausethere's an aspect to that that
appeals to you or perhaps feelsliberating it's interesting I
used to, you know, talking to mykids about sex because
obviously in the christiantradition um sort of casual sex
seems verboten, you know likeyou're not supposed to do that,
and I would say to my kids, likeI don't.

Joanne (01:39:51):
Recreational sex if you want to call that just enjoying
yourself, that's all good, butthe important thing is that the
person that you're with isalways deserving of human
dignity, right, and so theimportant thing is that this
person is not an object in yourenvironment, it's another human
being, and however you choosetogether to interact is fine.
If this is, you have sex andyou never speak to each other

(01:40:13):
again.
As long as that's understood,that that's what's happening,
that's OK, you know.
But the the waters we swim into use justice terms are just
full.
They are just so ripe withexpectations and what should be.
And that's if there's anythingwe can do around sexuality.

(01:40:36):
It's just like find anotherpond, like something that's more
, more free for us to actuallybe what we want to be, without
pressures, to either be moreliberal uh, you know expressive
than we want to be, or keep ushidden in a closet.
That's stifling, you know,because we're all different, we
experience sexuality different,but like let's just, let's just

(01:41:04):
say you know, you are who youare and you're worthy of human
dignity.
You are worthy of human dignity, full stop, and in all my
dealings with you.
That's the starting point.

Diana (01:41:17):
Well, in teaching, I think, or talking about or
having tools around decisionmaking.
Even you know so many peoplewhen they're making a decision
of some sort, I ask them, I'mlike, so how have you made
decisions in your life in thepast?

Joanne (01:41:36):
And they look at me like I have three heads.

Diana (01:41:38):
Oh, I don't know.
I'm like, well, you've madedecisions in your life and
they're like, oh, I just my gutor my head or my heart.
But how do we bring those threethings together to really think
about?
How am I ethically makingdecisions based on?

(01:41:58):
Do I have all the information Ineed?
Have I asked all the questionsyou know?
Have I explored, like, thosedark corners that maybe I wasn't
aware of?
What are my emotions aroundthis decision?
And I find it so fascinating Idon't know if in your practice,
jess you find that people cansometimes have a really hard

(01:42:20):
time identifying emotional words, like emotion words.
And so you know, having anemotions wheel or an emotion
chart or emojis, that you couldthis and that and this and this,
because we don't justexperience an emotion with a
decision.
I'm excited and I'm scared outof my mind at the same time.
Right, and it's okay to feelall of those sort of push and

(01:42:45):
pull emotions.
And then you know what's mywhole self, what's my body
telling me, what's my spiritual,you know center telling me that
it is an embodied way of havinga making a decision.
And so I think we think peoplehave tools around decision

(01:43:05):
making so that they know how toset their boundaries, they know
how to negotiate what kind ofrelationship structures they
want to engage in.
And when we don't have thosetools in our toolbox, we default
to really sometimes hurtful,harmful or problematic decision
making that isn't authentic orisn't ethical, or we're

(01:43:29):
subscribing to somebody else'svalues instead of our own
because it's easier or becausethey're in the lead and they get

(01:43:49):
to decide where the snowplowgoes, so to speak.

Bill (01:43:51):
To Jess, because they noticed with the election in the
US recently that there was avery strong difference in the
way that university-aged men anduniversity-aged women voted in
that time and there's certainlybeen a rise in sort of this

(01:44:13):
rhetoric and this understandingor idea of a rise in sort of
this rhetoric and thisunderstanding or idea of you
know your body but my choicekind of thinking in these young
men that went out and voted indroves for the man that Joanne
never wants to name.

Joanne (01:44:30):
His name shall not be spoken.
That's right, the Voldemort ofour day.
Apparently, the name shall notbe spoken.
That's right, the Voldemort ofour day apparently.

Bill (01:44:37):
But I would imagine like maybe post-secondary has changed
since my time, but I don'tthink it has, like it's always
been a place that kind ofultimately like social culture
in university already kind ofcomes with its own inherent kind
of risks and pressures.
And pressures and for a lot offolks, like their first time,

(01:44:58):
you know, living on their ownand kind of being like fully
independent from the parentsthat have driven them to school
all the way through to grade 12.
And there's a concerning kindof again like the rise in this
rhetoric but also some of thedistortion and the rollback of
everything related to, you know,diversity, equity or equality
and inclusion practices andbodily autonomy and all of this

(01:45:19):
right.
So, like the, the interesting,I guess the question for me is,
as, as you know, campus Unitedas as part of sort of the, the
spiritual and faith communitythat that supports university
students, what, what do do youngpeople need as this rise begins
again and this rhetoric that Ithink we all thought had kind of

(01:45:43):
been at least stamped out to adegree and now we find ourselves
sliding back into it, likewhat's the?
How do you support young peoplethat are showing up on campus
for the first time?

Jess (01:45:56):
Well, that's a big question.
What do young people need?
I'm like I don't know.
Ask them.
I'm not the expert on whatyoung people need.
How can I support them?
I think that is.
I mean, there's a lot of repeatfrom what Diane was saying

(01:46:18):
earlier about um, you know, withseniors and sexuality, like are
there safe spaces to talk aboutit?
Everything with a lot of likeidentity formation that starts
from when we're young, with ourattachment behaviors with our
primary caregivers.
Is that mirroring that happens?
I try something and I see howyou respond and then that
affects me.

(01:46:38):
You know, when we're learningabout some of our brain science.
That we're learning about isthat social rejection shows up
as pain in our brains in thesame places that getting punched
in the face would light up on abrain scan.
So that mirroring is reallyimportant.
Um, the yeah that that movement, the transitions that young

(01:47:01):
adults are going through areincredibly complex.
There's some really interestingresearch coming out of fuller
institute with their youth,youth and young adult ministry
around their.
They've identified like seven,seven different transitions.
Like we used to think of this,like life as an escalator we do
this and then we do this, andthen we do this and then we do
this, and they're talking abouthow there's these like seven

(01:47:22):
transitions that are kind ofhappening and people are moving
in and out of them, and in twoat once, and so it's a very
complex time.
There's a lot of change inyou're not doing the same things
as everyone else was doing wheneveryone else went to high

(01:47:44):
school and everyone's routinewas generally the same, and now
it's all just up for grabs.
So there's all of that going onat once and I'm probably, you
know, learning more about myselfhood in general, my
sexuality in general.
So I think communitynormalizing, validating whatever
the experiences, are radicalacceptance and permission,

(01:48:08):
giving spaces.
I think those are reallyimportant.
I think those are reallyimportant.
I do want to note that in thevoting, the biggest spread
between men and women was amongwhite men, and it was less so
among Hispanic and then evenless so among black men.

Joanne (01:48:26):
So that's something to consider as well, for sure,
because when you have a whitepatriarchy that's what you're
perceived as losing the most andmoving into a permissive space
where people can be free to bewhatever.
So it makes sense, doesn't it?
In some ways, it's interesting.

(01:48:47):
At the break, one of the peoplewho's here live asked me if I'd
read this article in the Heraldthat was out, which talked
about how, across alldemographics, we're actually
having less sex, not more sex15%.

Jess (01:49:02):
Less is what I read.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joanne (01:49:06):
And there are certain countries where people are not
interested.
What?

Bill (01:49:12):
He said I feel it.

Joanne (01:49:15):
I thought you were going to say that you're the outlier
15 more that balances all out.
But this is this is reallyinteresting to me that in a time
where we say you can have sexwith as many people as you want,
you know, as long as dignityand conversation, and you can
have all different kinds ofrelationships and all this, that
people are less interested insex than they used to be and

(01:49:38):
that there are countries wherethey're actually worried about
their future as a countrybecause young people are not
having sex and, as a result, nothaving babies.
You know, this is veryinteresting to me because when I
was young, there was nothingmore exciting than seeing
someone that you thought youmight fall in love with and the

(01:50:01):
whole, um, the whole experienceof figuring out who they are and
do they like you and all thatstuff.
You know, like that is one ofthe quintessential experiences
of being human is flirtation,you know, and and that, and I I
really hope and trust I'm oldnow that we haven't lost the

(01:50:22):
ability to do that just becausewe spend so much time talking
about how to set boundaries.
You know, like I don't know.

Ricardo (01:50:29):
Two things, interestingly enough, of what
you just said a lack ofreproduction, I guess in order
to sustain the population thatwe have right now.
I'm of the personal opinionthat the world is overpopulated.
We could use a little bit of aslowdown.

Joanne (01:50:44):
Yeah, all the futurists say that there's going to be a
population crash.

Ricardo (01:50:47):
Well, if you think like , if you think in the 1980s,
when Deng Xiaoping visited theUS, he was questioned under
China's one-child policy.
And he's like well, if youdon't have it in one-child
policy in China, in 20 years allyour neighborhoods will be
Chinese.
And now China's like desperatefor people to have more children
.
They're paying them to havemore children because they can't
sustain the population, themassive number of people that

(01:51:08):
are retiring and entering oldage.
These one-child policy childrenthat are looking after two aging
parents.
Or, you know it's even worse.
There policy children that arelooking after two aging parents,
and or you know it's even worsethere was a documentary about
when that one child dies.
No one takes care of theparents of that anyway.
The second thing was that, um,reproductive issues and
population sustainability aside,um, people are having 15 less

(01:51:30):
sex, but I I think thedemographic towards intimacy
might be increasing.
Um, I've seen a lot of articleslately and I don't know if it's
articles or just general pushestowards male platonic intimacy,
even amongst two heterosexualmales, and how.
What's wrong with two men justsitting down on a couch cuddling
?
and watching a movie together.
Two women will do that.

(01:51:51):
A man and a woman does thatHonestly.
Two very intergenders do that.
When it's two heterosexual,cisgendered males, even they
brush their arms.

Joanne (01:52:03):
That's not a pillow.
They get very uncomfortable.

Ricardo (01:52:07):
So I think that yeah, yeah, yeah, plane strings and
automobiles for all you people,I think there is a push for
breaking down those walls andthe normalization of just like,
hey, let's just chill out.
Body contact is fine.
We don't have to have our armswrapped around each other making
out during the movie which iswhat some people hope will

(01:52:29):
happen, but just this attitudethat's entrenched in homophobia.

Jess (01:52:37):
Absolutely, absolutely no reason whatsoever right which is
entrenched in misogyny.
Exactly, yes, absolutely.

Ricardo (01:52:46):
Which is also entrenched in beauty culture
right, like you should not beintimate in having relationships
, or any sort of intimaterelationship, with another man
when you should be focused onyour wife or your monogamous
partner, right?
So yeah, absolutely, it's anentrenched misogyny.
You should only be intimatethat way with a woman, and if
the woman doesn't want to betouched or held that way, then

(01:53:08):
she's automatically seen asdismissive, or?

Bill (01:53:12):
frigid was the word, frigid was the word they frigid
was the word yep yep yep, yep,absolutely, yeah, for sure all
right, I'm definitely aware ofthe time now, um, so we're going
to close it off here.
I'm going to ask the finalclosing remark.
We're going to move down thetable.
Um question is what's the onecore truth or guiding principle
that you hope people will takeaway from this conversation?

(01:53:32):
You're a guest.
We'll go the other direction.
We'll start with ricardo.
I was gonna say you don't ask,take away from this conversation
.

Diana (01:53:39):
You're a guest, We'll go the other direction.
We'll start with Ricardo.
I was going to say you don'task easy questions.

Ricardo (01:53:44):
Friend, someone wise once told me that you know
there's a lot of negativity andhurt in the world, but as long
as you operate out of love, thenthings happen to be a lot
better, to get a lot better.
And no matter where people arein their life or what they
desire, or what they think orwhat they want, if you have an

(01:54:09):
open mind and just embrace themwith love to try and understand
them, you'll very quicklyrealize that your life doesn't
actually change that much,because, first off, it's none of
your goddamn business.
And secondly, if it makes themhappy and it's not hurting
anybody else, why are we causing?

Diana (01:54:27):
a stink about it right.

Ricardo (01:54:29):
So that's, I think, the whole point of this podcast
today is that there should notbe shame around loving yourself
and loving each other, andexpressing yourself in love and
there should not be rigid rulesand directives and norms that
just don't fit the person that'slooking at those rules.

(01:54:49):
So just operate in love.
And, by the way, that wiseperson was just two seats down
from me.

Diana (01:55:07):
Oh, I blush, operate in love and, by the way, that wise
person was just two seats downfrom me.
So, um, I think for me is really, I just hope that people, um
start to consider what theirvalues are and think more deeply
around what their sexual valuesare their values are around
sexuality and start to thinkabout how they want to be in the
world and acting and being andchoosing to enact their lives in

(01:55:31):
alignment with those values and, if something's not feeling
right or going the way that youexpect it to, um, to really
remain curious about what'shappening and where that's
coming from, and and not shamingand not blaming yourself, and
recognizing that we've all beensteeped in shame for so long and

(01:55:52):
for so many generations andintergenerationally, um, that it
it's really normal and okay tonot be sure and not know or feel
like you maybe don't have allof the tools in the toolbox, um,
and that there are people outhere that that want to help, and
and that there are resourcesfor folks who who do want to

(01:56:13):
have these conversations.
So I hope people feel lessisolated and alone around this
topic.

Joanne (01:56:23):
Yeah, I hope you all go home and talk to your intimate
partners about what you wantfrom life.
For me, it's the you don't ownpeople leads to a lot of healthy
conversation if you justremember that always.
You don't own people leads to alot of healthy conversation if
you just remember that always.
You don't own people.
And then the second thing iseveryone is deserving of human
dignity.

(01:56:43):
And if you go with that, firstof all acting out of love you
don't own people and everyone isdeserving of human dignity.
It can take you a lot of places, but all of them are healthy.

Jess (01:56:57):
Yeah, I would have to echo that Everyone, the inherent
dignity of all people Genesis 1,created in God's image.
Genesis 2, it's not good for usto be alone.

Bill (01:57:09):
We're inherently relational and we're already all
interconnected and that comeswith its blessings and its
responsibilities, all right.
Well, thank you to Jess, and toDiana especially tonight, for

(01:57:31):
being our guests here on a veryopen and honest conversation
here on Prepared to Dream.
As well thanks to Joanne andRicardo for always being the
mainstays on it.
My guiding principle, my coretruth, my final kind of thought
for the night is simply thatwhoever you are and wherever you
are in the journey of life, youare not alone.

(01:57:51):
You are loved by God.
You are created in the image ofa loving God and you are a

(01:58:24):
walking, breathing need to fearlove in any of its myriad forms.
Of the United Church Foundationfor supporting our podcast, and
to our live audience thatshowed up here tonight to sit
through this conversation, andto everybody that's listening
online.
Thanks, and we are signing off.
We will see you in March.

(01:58:45):
And there we are at the end ofit.
Folks, thanks for joining ustoday.
Hopefully you didn't getdragged under, at least not
without some moments ofrevelation along the way.
If today's conversation got youthinking, or maybe even
blushing, then keep thediscussion going with us on
Patreon or by subscribing,wherever you get your podcasts.
And now we've got even moreways to stay connected because
you can check outPreparedToDrowncom for our blog,

(01:59:08):
past episodes, links to all ofour social media and all kinds
of behind-the-scenes content.
It's the perfect place to keepexploring, reflecting and maybe
even arguing with us a little,with love.
Of course.
Prepared to Drown is recordedlive each month at MacDougall
United Church in Calgary,alberta, canada, and if you're
in the area, come and join us.
We promise a welcoming space,good conversation and minimal

(01:59:32):
awkward eye contact during thespicy bits.
But before we go, please hearthis your worth is not tied to
the shame, the fear or theimpossible expectations that
others have placed on you.
You are not broken, you are nottoo much, you are not too
little.
You are beautiful, you arebeloved and you are enough just

(01:59:52):
as you are.
Until next time, stay curious,stay kind and remember that
grace is big enough for all ofus, even when the topics get
complicated.
See you soon.

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Episode 5 - The "Love" Boat: Just How Many People Are We Fitting In Here?

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 5 - The "Love" Boat: Just How Many People Are We Fitting In Here?